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txkf2010 wrote:Maybe Lockheed will get back into the commercial arena!
JayinKitsap wrote:The EU not approving the deal, with repeated delays of 3-4 months at a time, was not helping.
scbriml wrote:JayinKitsap wrote:The EU not approving the deal, with repeated delays of 3-4 months at a time, was not helping.
Looks like it saved Boeing's bacon!
If it was the only issue, Embraer and Boeing could have simply extended the deadline.
astuteman wrote:scbriml wrote:JayinKitsap wrote:The EU not approving the deal, with repeated delays of 3-4 months at a time, was not helping.
Looks like it saved Boeing's bacon!
If it was the only issue, Embraer and Boeing could have simply extended the deadline.
Feels to me like the EU just saved Boeing $4Bn in cash ……
Rgds
scbriml wrote:astuteman wrote:scbriml wrote:
Looks like it saved Boeing's bacon!
If it was the only issue, Embraer and Boeing could have simply extended the deadline.
Feels to me like the EU just saved Boeing $4Bn in cash ……
Rgds
I think Boeing would have pulled the plug even if the EU had approved before the deadline.
scbriml wrote:astuteman wrote:scbriml wrote:Looks like it saved Boeing's bacon!
If it was the only issue, Embraer and Boeing could have simply extended the deadline.
Feels to me like the EU just saved Boeing $4Bn in cash ……
Rgds
I think Boeing would have pulled the plug even if the EU had approved before the deadline.
PW100 wrote:scbriml wrote:astuteman wrote:
Feels to me like the EU just saved Boeing $4Bn in cash ……
Rgds
I think Boeing would have pulled the plug even if the EU had approved before the deadline.
As it is, it appears that it will cost Boeing $100M to save that $4Bn in cash . . . .
SheikhDjibouti wrote:wjcandee wrote:I have to wonder whether the EMB move would be to give Boeing a competitive product, in order to support the tariffs. If they race to get the deal done before early January, we will know the answer.
Er, no.
Unless you want to consider a world where you can be prosecuted tomorrow, for a speed limit only brought in today, for a driving "offence" you committed last week.
Ex post facto laws are expressly forbidden by the United States Constitution.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_post_facto_law
planecane wrote:dtw2hyd wrote:Current economic conditions aside, strategically it is a myopic move. Boeing needs to break away from 737 shackles. E2 was their jail free card and as always they blew it.
The E2 is smaller and less capable than the 737MAX. This JV wasn't going to help with the MAX situation. It probably would have been used for at least the smaller size end of the 737 replacement but that wasn't happening for several more years anyway.
The C-series would possibly have helped Boeing with the MAX situation but not the E2.
MSPNWA wrote:We'll see what the lawyers say, but now is not the time to spend billions on a company worth a fraction of that. Boeing is very fortunate that coronavirus hit before the deal was completed. Airbus wasn't so fortunate with their CSeries anchor. Coronavirus will reward the manufacturer that can shrink the fastest. Boeing is in that position if the law is in their favor.
Hopefully Embraer survives on their own and can revisit this if the bridges aren't too badly burned. I don't have a high hopes though, not with the E2 being too large for U.S. scope clauses and too small for competitiveness in a mainline usage. I don't blame them for fighting tooth and nail to keep the deal. They may not live without it.
txkf2010 wrote:Maybe Lockheed will get back into the commercial arena!
dtw2hyd wrote:planecane wrote:dtw2hyd wrote:Current economic conditions aside, strategically it is a myopic move. Boeing needs to break away from 737 shackles. E2 was their jail free card and as always they blew it.
The E2 is smaller and less capable than the 737MAX. This JV wasn't going to help with the MAX situation. It probably would have been used for at least the smaller size end of the 737 replacement but that wasn't happening for several more years anyway.
The C-series would possibly have helped Boeing with the MAX situation but not the E2.
It is not about the size, it is about the technology. If Airbus thinks A320 family architecture is too old, it can switch to A220 architecture. Boeing forfeited that option.
lightsaber wrote:dtw2hyd wrote:planecane wrote:
The E2 is smaller and less capable than the 737MAX. This JV wasn't going to help with the MAX situation. It probably would have been used for at least the smaller size end of the 737 replacement but that wasn't happening for several more years anyway.
The C-series would possibly have helped Boeing with the MAX situation but not the E2.
It is not about the size, it is about the technology. If Airbus thinks A320 family architecture is too old, it can switch to A220 architecture. Boeing forfeited that option.
I'm confused. Boeing has the NMA technology evolved off the 787. By this I mean:
Predictive maintenance
Folding wingtips
New avionics architecture
CFRP wings/wingbox
Electric subsystems
For the NSA, the volume will be so high everything will be custom.
Lightsaber
dtw2hyd wrote:lightsaber wrote:dtw2hyd wrote:
It is not about the size, it is about the technology. If Airbus thinks A320 family architecture is too old, it can switch to A220 architecture. Boeing forfeited that option.
I'm confused. Boeing has the NMA technology evolved off the 787. By this I mean:
Predictive maintenance
Folding wingtips
New avionics architecture
CFRP wings/wingbox
Electric subsystems
For the NSA, the volume will be so high everything will be custom.
Lightsaber
Both are still on paper. Boeing never seems to be interested in scaling up(to 777x) or scaling down(to NMA/NSA) 787 architecture.
MCAS raises doubts whether Boeing has experienced engineering staff to write specs, or mostly fresh grads leading large teams on innovation. Not unique to aviation, pre-COVID19, every Ross School of Business grad claims he/she got a 6-figure job to lead 200 member team.
With MAX fiasco, having different certification authority is not a bad thing, rather than counting on exclusive-FAA certificates.
kaneporta1 wrote:GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:If the word from DL is to be believed, it is also dog when it comes to maintenance. I don't think they are celebrating in Toulouse; that is just fanboi fantasy talk.
What Boeing has done is piss off both its north and south American neighbors. It has pissed off everyone. This could also be yet another step on its slide into oblivion.
Considering that Delta's entire A220 fleet is currently flying, that is a pretty good indication of what the company thinks of this aircraft.
And honestly, Toulouse must be celebrating right now. Their primary A220 competitors are a company without a certified aircraft (Boeing) or a company whose viability will surely be questioned by potential future customers (Embraer). Actually Embraer is now where Bombardier was 3-4 years ago. Good products, but too risky for potential customers.
LCDFlight wrote:An an aviation fan, ex member of the industry, fan of the 777, 747, 727, 767, 787: I urge Boeing to dissolve and remove the stained, tainted name of Boeing from the world. Boeing’s corporate entity disgusts me. The 737 “keep it flying anyway” affair was just one of several unforgivable crimes the company has committed. It is time to end this. Great news for Embraer.
planecane wrote:This doesn't make very much sense. They did use some 787 tech on the 777x. They were going to use it on the NMA and they will use it on whatever their next clean sheet is, no matter what it is. They weren't going to base the next clean sheet off of the E2. If they wanted to kill the max and launch the NSA tomorrow, it will be based off of the 787 architecture.
MCAS wasn't innovation. It was hacking a solution into an architecture that wasn't designed for that type of system.
planecane wrote:The C-series would possibly have helped Boeing with the MAX situation but not the E2.
F9Animal wrote:LockheedBBD wrote:The question is, would Embraer be interested in a partnership with COMAC? I'm sure China is salivating at the opportunity as they were with the CSeries (before it was ultimately sold to Airbus).
What about Airbus? I find it difficult to think this could mean the end of Embraer. They have a solid product, and I just can't see them just bowing out. Yep, times are tough, but Embraer stands a solid chance of surviving this storm IMO.
Now if things are grim at Embraer, Airbus could easily swoop in and own the Regional market perhaps? As for Boeing? I don't feel the least bit sorry for them. What they did to the C-Series was absolutely disgusting. Boy did that come back to bite them. Karma is a mofo!
9Patch wrote:WayexTDI wrote:I never understood that JV proposal, except as a "me too" knee-jerk reaction after the Airbus/BBD deal.
It the Boeing/Embraer deal was so solid in the first place, it would have happened already or been extended; maybe another blessing in disguise for Boeing.When the JV was announced in 2019, the advantages for Boeing were:
Access to EMB engineers at a time when Boeing’s are aging and ready to retire.
Access to much lower cost base in Brazil.
KC-390 program.
Revenue from EMB Commercial services.
E2 program, though this is tangential.
The advantages for Embraer were:
Access to Boeing’s vast customer base, marketing power, balance sheet (again, pre-virus) and capital markets.
Access to work on new airplane programs: NMA (at the time), Future Small Airplanes (single aisle, either to compete with A220 or larger).
Work for its engineers.
A future beyond the struggling E2 and beyond the fanciful turboprop concept.
A future for Embraer Commercial Airplanes, which in LNA’s view was increasingly risky.
https://leehamnews.com/2020/04/25/analy ... t-venture/
WayexTDI wrote:9Patch wrote:WayexTDI wrote:I never understood that JV proposal, except as a "me too" knee-jerk reaction after the Airbus/BBD deal.
It the Boeing/Embraer deal was so solid in the first place, it would have happened already or been extended; maybe another blessing in disguise for Boeing.When the JV was announced in 2019, the advantages for Boeing were:
Access to EMB engineers at a time when Boeing’s are aging and ready to retire.
Access to much lower cost base in Brazil.
KC-390 program.
Revenue from EMB Commercial services.
E2 program, though this is tangential.
The advantages for Embraer were:
Access to Boeing’s vast customer base, marketing power, balance sheet (again, pre-virus) and capital markets.
Access to work on new airplane programs: NMA (at the time), Future Small Airplanes (single aisle, either to compete with A220 or larger).
Work for its engineers.
A future beyond the struggling E2 and beyond the fanciful turboprop concept.
A future for Embraer Commercial Airplanes, which in LNA’s view was increasingly risky.
https://leehamnews.com/2020/04/25/analy ... t-venture/
Those are the "official" reasons. Reality is:
- Access to EMB engineers at a time when Boeing’s are aging and ready to retire: there's plenty of very good engineers available in the US, as well as other places where Boeing is already present (like Canada or Europe);
- Access to much lower cost base in Brazil: it remains to be seen the cost base is much lower in Brazil. Recent studies in cost comparison I had to do for an aerospace OEM put Brazil very close to Europe and the US, but much more difficult to work with; negating the cost advantage;
- KC-390 program: meh, 2 firm orders (Brazil and Portugal) for a total of 33 frames (28 & 5 respectively). Not a huge success. Also note the historical proximity between the 2 countries, one has to wonder why those 2 but no other countries ordered it;
- Revenue from EMB Commercial services: that might be the only viable and worthy piece of the deal, how much would it really bring though?
- E2 program, though this is tangential: tangential at best.
So, again, I understand the synergies merging 2 companies making similar products; but the only thing similar between between those 2 were that they are in the similar industry.
Not sure it was worth $4B...
744SPX wrote:Hopefully Embraer's next-gen turboprop will still see the light of day without Boeing financial assistance.
EMBSPBR wrote:426Shadow wrote:As far as I am concerned, the only good thing to come out of this is pretty much killing off any possibility of the KC-390 invading C-130J territory. Job security is king.
Which jobs ? Yours ?
744SPX wrote:Hopefully Embraer's next-gen turboprop will still see the light of day without Boeing financial assistance.
strfyr51 wrote:Because Delta bought the A220 does not make it a success. What Delta does ? Does not necessarily make it gospel for the other US Airlines. . It will give the Model SOME credibility however. How Much? it remains to be seen,
strfyr51 wrote:LCDFlight wrote:An an aviation fan, ex member of the industry, fan of the 777, 747, 727, 767, 787: I urge Boeing to dissolve and remove the stained, tainted name of Boeing from the world. Boeing’s corporate entity disgusts me. The 737 “keep it flying anyway” affair was just one of several unforgivable crimes the company has committed. It is time to end this. Great news for Embraer.
Boeing is getting as good as they gave with the 737Max. They let Arrogance override their business sense, they also Half Ass engineered the 737 Max upgrade putting a stain on the proud legacy of the 737 model line Their saving grace? They can do better. Maybe? They need to go back and take another look at the DC-9 MD-80 series engineering with today's systems and materials in mind. There ARE engines available that make sense for today's market that would give Boeing a good basis for a new model and they wouldn't need Embraer at all. Unless?? They just Want to outsource their airplanes in the future.
bkmbr wrote:744SPX wrote:Hopefully Embraer's next-gen turboprop will still see the light of day without Boeing financial assistance.
According to some Brazilian media sources, COMAC also seems interested in Embraer as well so I don't think that Boeing's financial assistance will be so relevant. Since the ARJ21 flopped, money was never really a problem to COMAC and Embraer is at bargain price of USD 1.4 billion (compared to the almost 3.7 billion that they were worth before the deal) would be a great deal to COMAC to acquire the company that complements his C-919 and C-929 lines and also receive as a gift a big number of potential clients already operating the Embraer jets as their customers. A supercharged Embraer with Chinese money could be what COMAC needs to establish itself in western markets IMHO, and on the side Embraer would be able to hit back on Boeing in the face in the American market with the virtually unlimited Chinese money helping to establish COMAC's airplanes in the USA just as the Airbus A300 deals with Eastern, Pan Am and American Airlines.
EMBSPBR wrote:Airlines with purchase intentions awaiting completion of the JV to obtain better purchase conditions ...
LCDFlight wrote:bkmbr wrote:744SPX wrote:Hopefully Embraer's next-gen turboprop will still see the light of day without Boeing financial assistance.
According to some Brazilian media sources, COMAC also seems interested in Embraer as well so I don't think that Boeing's financial assistance will be so relevant. Since the ARJ21 flopped, money was never really a problem to COMAC and Embraer is at bargain price of USD 1.4 billion (compared to the almost 3.7 billion that they were worth before the deal) would be a great deal to COMAC to acquire the company that complements his C-919 and C-929 lines and also receive as a gift a big number of potential clients already operating the Embraer jets as their customers. A supercharged Embraer with Chinese money could be what COMAC needs to establish itself in western markets IMHO, and on the side Embraer would be able to hit back on Boeing in the face in the American market with the virtually unlimited Chinese money helping to establish COMAC's airplanes in the USA just as the Airbus A300 deals with Eastern, Pan Am and American Airlines.
Wow. Stunning ideas here. Bombardier’s expertise is presumably part of Airbus now, preserving that duopoly. But Embraer is also an accepted airliner maker at Western standards. China can buy it without a doubt.
MrBren wrote:With the 737 MAX disaster, 787 problems, 77X orders cancellation, all related Covid 19 consequences and now the end of the Embraer deal, will Boeing survive?
bkmbr wrote:744SPX wrote:Hopefully Embraer's next-gen turboprop will still see the light of day without Boeing financial assistance.
According to some Brazilian media sources, COMAC also seems interested in Embraer as well so I don't think that Boeing's financial assistance will be so relevant. Since the ARJ21 flopped, money was never really a problem to COMAC and Embraer is at bargain price of USD 1.4 billion (compared to the almost 3.7 billion that they were worth before the deal) would be a great deal to COMAC to acquire the company that complements his C-919 and C-929 lines and also receive as a gift a big number of potential clients already operating the Embraer jets as their customers. A supercharged Embraer with Chinese money could be what COMAC needs to establish itself in western markets IMHO, and on the side Embraer would be able to hit back on Boeing in the face in the American market with the virtually unlimited Chinese money helping to establish COMAC's airplanes in the USA just as the Airbus A300 deals with Eastern, Pan Am and American Airlines.
Waterbomber2 wrote:Trump would block export licenses on any type of U.S. content: engines, avionics, just as he did for the C919.
EMBSPBR wrote:jfk777 wrote:Embraer would be better off making a deal to let Boeing market their planes than battle them and sue them. Embraer can't be blind the facts of Boeing's problems, even with they can taste the $ 4 billion dollars not coming anymore. A deal of short of merging would be in everyone's interest.
Boeing terminated the deal.
Not Embraer !!!
astuteman wrote:scbriml wrote:JayinKitsap wrote:The EU not approving the deal, with repeated delays of 3-4 months at a time, was not helping.
Looks like it saved Boeing's bacon!
If it was the only issue, Embraer and Boeing could have simply extended the deadline.
Feels to me like the EU just saved Boeing $4Bn in cash ……
Rgds
scbriml wrote:Waterbomber2 wrote:Trump would block export licenses on any type of U.S. content: engines, avionics, just as he did for the C919.
Trump threatened to block US exports for the C919, but didn't.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1441205
GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:If the word from DL is to be believed, it is also dog when it comes to maintenance.