FSDan
Topic Author
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LH Long Haul Ops Increasingly Complicated - Effect On Transatlantic JV?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:50 am

It's difficult to keep track of Lufthansa Group's long haul operations these days, but as far as I can tell this is where we are at:

*Lufthansa Mainline -> full service airline with principle bases at FRA and MUC, and a lone 333 based at DUS for DUS-EWR
*Jump/LH Cityline -> high density 343s based at FRA, but no longer a separate operation? (Still shows up as operated by CityLine on the website, but wiki says otherwise...)
*Eurowings -> low cost airline with some flying based out of DUS operated by Brussels Airlines 333/343s, and some flying based out of CGN and MUC operated by SunExpress Deutschland 332s
*Swiss International -> full service airline based at ZRH (with one long haul service from GVA that rotates with ZRH-based aircraft at JFK)
*Edelweiss Air -> low cost subsidiary of LX based at ZRH
*Brussels Airlines -> full service (at least for now) airline based out of BRU
*Austrian Airlines -> full service airline based out of VIE

Am I missing anything on the long haul side? Anyway, my question is whether all TATL flying on all these various subsidiaries is included in the transatlantic JV LH has with UA. Can anyone confirm or deny? If it's all included then that makes all this shuffling a bit simpler, although it still seems like some simplification is in order!
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NichCage
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Re: LH Long Haul Ops Increasingly Complicated - Effect On Transatlantic JV?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:59 am

I think the Transatlantic JV includes LH, LX, SN, and OS, but I may be wrong. I don't think Eurowings is part of it, but again I could be wrong.

While unrelated to this, It seems like LH is ending TXL-JFK on March 24th, 2018. There's no link to verify it and some things on Wikipedia should be taken with a grain of salt. Why isn't Eurowings taking TXL-JFK over? The route seems to be going straight away.
 
jasoncrh
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Re: LH Long Haul Ops Increasingly Complicated - Effect On Transatlantic JV?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:58 am

all is included in the JV. it's negotiated and there are formulas to allocate the revenue.
 
jasoncrh
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Re: LH Long Haul Ops Increasingly Complicated - Effect On Transatlantic JV?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:59 am

TXL- JFK is going to be continued to be served - by eurowings. this has been announced and discussed.
 
axiom
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Re: LH Long Haul Ops Increasingly Complicated - Effect On Transatlantic JV?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:50 am

Correct that the LH Cityline arrangement is ending, now that revisions to the mainline pilot contract have been agreed upon. That capacity will again be mainline (although it has always been full service), although it could presumably be transferred to a partner at a future date.
 
xiaotung
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Re: LH Long Haul Ops Increasingly Complicated - Effect On Transatlantic JV?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:03 am

If I read previous news releases correctly, SN will eventually merge into Eurowings. Eurowings is not part of the trans-Atlantic JV. Not sure what will happen to DUS as LH is only flying long haul from there due to AB which may not be long term. Their full service long haul hubs are FRA, MUC, ZRH and VIE.

What would complicate things even more would be the potential acquisition of AZ which has become increasingly likely. LH has made clear they intend to turn FCO into their 5th hub. If that happens, AZ may become part of the JV and perhaps *A too. Exciting times!
 
9252fly
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Re: LH Long Haul Ops Increasingly Complicated - Effect On Transatlantic JV?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:46 am

The OP lists the many brands in the LH group. I thought Germanwings was also part of the group? Are there still other's that haven't been mentioned?
 
axiom
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Re: LH Long Haul Ops Increasingly Complicated - Effect On Transatlantic JV?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:10 am

9252fly wrote:
The OP lists the many brands in the LH group. I thought Germanwings was also part of the group? Are there still other's that haven't been mentioned?


The Germanwings brand has been folded into Eurowings, although you still find GW-operated flights puttering about. I don't know why the independent AOC has been maintained, but from a brand perspective they are integrated.
 
FSDan
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Re: LH Long Haul Ops Increasingly Complicated - Effect On Transatlantic JV?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:32 pm

Thanks for the information, all! So it sounds like EW is not included in the JV... Is WK in the same boat, or do they count as part of LX as far as the JV is concerned?

Regarding TXL-JFK, there's currently nothing loaded for summer other than DL's daily 763 flight. Hopefully that will materialize on EW in the coming weeks. I also remember hearing that they would be starting DUS-LAX, which has similarly not been loaded yet.

I didn't include Germanwings in the discussion since they only fly short haul and my main question was in reference to the TATL JV.


As far as simplification goes, here's what I'd like to see (recognizing it is unlikely to happen):
*EW long-haul is concentrated into a stronger operation at DUS (instead of being split between CGN and DUS), and a few key long haul flights from BER (thinking JFK, MIA, and LAX)
*UA takes over EWR-DUS from LH mainline and adds ORD-DUS - both could be good 767 routes
*EW joins the TATL JV (assuming they are not part of it currently)
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jfklganyc
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Re: LH Long Haul Ops Increasingly Complicated - Effect On Transatlantic JV?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:50 pm

There is still the JFK DUS route missing post AB.

Anyone going to fill that gap?
 
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SuperTwin
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Re: LH Long Haul Ops Increasingly Complicated - Effect On Transatlantic JV?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:56 pm

Further complexities..

LH SN OS LX + UA + AC are in this JV and are all members of star alliance though WK and EW are in neither of those despite being owned by LX and LH respectively. Go figure.
SuperTwin
 
FSDan
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Re: LH Long Haul Ops Increasingly Complicated - Effect On Transatlantic JV?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:00 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
There is still the JFK DUS route missing post AB.

Anyone going to fill that gap?


EW will fly JFK-DUS starting in April, 6x weekly on a SN-operated 343.
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sf260
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Re: LH Long Haul Ops Increasingly Complicated - Effect On Transatlantic JV?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:05 pm

FSDan wrote:
*Jump/LH Cityline -> high density 343s based at FRA, but no longer a separate operation? (Still shows up as operated by CityLine on the website, but wiki says otherwise...)

Re: Jump. The 6 A340's in Star Alliance livery will be transferred to Brussels Airlines, to be operated for Eurowings DUS base.
 
VC10er
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Re: LH Long Haul Ops Increasingly Complicated - Effect On Transatlantic JV?

Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:40 am

What’s the difference between a JV and “metal neutral”...if there is one!
As with LH, can a UA FF with Global Upgrade Certificates with all these other airlines attached to LH?
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
blueflyer
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Re: LH Long Haul Ops Increasingly Complicated - Effect On Transatlantic JV?

Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:08 pm

FSDan wrote:
*Brussels Airlines -> full service (at least for now) airline based out of BRU

In Lufty's restructuring of Miles & More, HON, Senators and FTL bonuses for Brussels Airlines flights will be the same as Eurowings flights, that is less than the bonus on the other LH group carriers and United or Air Canada. Yet Brussels Airlines' full service costs as much as United's or Air Canada's on routes where they compete out of BRU, and is as good in my opinion... But the brand must be sacrificed, so decided Carsten Spohr.
The Trump/Johnson special relationship: Special people on both sides of the Atlantic
 
sf260
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Re: LH Long Haul Ops Increasingly Complicated - Effect On Transatlantic JV?

Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:19 pm

blueflyer wrote:
In Lufty's restructuring of Miles & More, HON, Senators and FTL bonuses for Brussels Airlines flights will be the same as Eurowings flights, that is less than the bonus on the other LH group carriers and United or Air Canada.

Apparently, this will be rectified from January, you will earn as much Miles on an SN flight as on LH/LX/OS flights.

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