BAorNoWay
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Updated: Niki Lauda purchases NIKI

Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:06 pm

According to Reuters there are four bidders in the process, including the original founder and IAG, what are the odds that IAG will be success in buying NIKI? Seems like a good fit for the IAG stable of airlines.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-air- ... SKBN1EG1C7
Last edited by atcsundevil on Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Title updated
 
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jetfuel
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Re: Who will win in the battle to takeover NIKI?

Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:57 pm

If its viable yes maybe. If mot it will just be broken into bits. Feel sorry for the founder
Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
 
BrianDromey
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Re: Who will win in the battle to takeover NIKI?

Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:32 pm

IAG seem interested and are, apparently, the preferred bidder. Strategically, they could do with a central European presence.

Quite why they could not achieve a similar outcome by opening a Vueling base, rather than buying the remnants of another airline, Im not sure - maybe to keep a closer eye on the easyJet Europe project. I don't think NIKI or VIE add quite as much to the overall IAG strategy as TAP(Brazil) or Finnair(Asia) would, but their coverage of central Europe is poor and oneworld isn't much help, with the loss of Malev, Air Berlin and NIKI.
 
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SQ22
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Re: Who will win in the battle to takeover NIKI?

Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:26 pm

Link to the previous thread about LH's withdrawal can be found here:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1380967
 
Kikko19
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Re: Who will win in the battle to takeover NIKI?

Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:44 pm

So was a forced withdrawal for LH? I guess Niki will go either to TUI or condor... Not a great victory for competition...
 
PanHAM
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Re: Who will win in the battle to takeover NIKI?

Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:16 am

LH was prepared to pay some 182 mio € for Niki. I doubt that any of the potential buyers would fork out so much Money and only one would be able to, IAG. But would they really Need a leisure carrier?.

Next - establishing a brand "Vueling" in the DACH Region would be extremely difficult.
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BAorNoWay
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Re: Who will win in the battle to takeover NIKI?

Mon Dec 25, 2017 12:17 pm

PanHAM wrote:
LH was prepared to pay some 182 mio € for Niki. I doubt that any of the potential buyers would fork out so much Money and only one would be able to, IAG. But would they really Need a leisure carrier?.

Next - establishing a brand "Vueling" in the DACH Region would be extremely difficult.


I believe that NIKI would be a good fit for the IAG Group. A new market from which to expand from and NIKI operates a number of Airbus A320 aircraft similar to other airlines in the IAG Group. The 737’s could be phased out gradually.

The IAG business model allows them to easily ‘plug and play’ new airlines, giving the individual airlines in the group autonomy to operate but with the benefit of joint procurement as part of the larger group.

NIKI would be a great fit for IAG, and I think it would expand considerably under IAG ownership. As for ‘do they need a leisure airine?’, I think IAG won’t be thinking of it as a leisure airline, they will be thinking about the slots at the airports the airline has and the potential development of those slots in the future. Also, they have a low cost airline ‘Vueling’ so why not add a leisure airline? It’s a totally different market from which to expand.

Just my thoughts on the process. I hope IAG do win the bid, but there are other interested parties so we will have to wait and see!
 
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zkojq
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Re: Who will win in the battle to takeover NIKI?

Mon Dec 25, 2017 12:19 pm

I hope its anyone but IAG. Having Europe becoming like the US with airline ownership consolidated towards three major airline groups is not a good thing for consumers. If Lufthansa can't have Niki, IAG (nor AFKL for that matter) shouldn't be able to either.
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Phosphorus
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Re: Who will win in the battle to takeover NIKI?

Mon Dec 25, 2017 5:40 pm

Sorry, but for those less informed -- does NIKI actually posses any significant assets, besides the oft-spoken about slots portfolio? I remember it was mentioned that the entire fleet is leased.

If yes... Then the whole "battle" to acquire an airline that's ceased to fly for ~10 days now, basically looks like a race to secure slots, before they revert to slot coordinator. There's no actual "NIKI airline" that will find a new owner, right?
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PanHAM
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Re: Who will win in the battle to takeover NIKI?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:15 am

At best you could say that the assets of Niki are a dedicated Team of 1000 employees that know how to run trhe Airline and Keep it operational.. Thus saving start up costs in a new market. That would be called soft assets or good will in accounting Terms. If IAG wins the battle, they should Keep the Name Niki for that carrier. Vueling voo-doo as a Name would not be an asset.
LH suppoted the Niki ops with at least 50 mio € before the EC told them that they would likely not approve a take over. Paying that much on top of a purchase Price for something that is up for grabs anyhow does not sound like a good deal.
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LTU330
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Re: Who will win in the battle to takeover NIKI?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:45 am

PanHAM wrote:
At best you could say that the assets of Niki are a dedicated Team of 1000 employees that know how to run trhe Airline and Keep it operational.. Thus saving start up costs in a new market. That would be called soft assets or good will in accounting Terms. If IAG wins the battle, they should Keep the Name Niki for that carrier. Vueling voo-doo as a Name would not be an asset.
LH suppoted the Niki ops with at least 50 mio € before the EC told them that they would likely not approve a take over. Paying that much on top of a purchase Price for something that is up for grabs anyhow does not sound like a good deal.


You could have said the same about Air Berlin employees. Only certain people, most of whom had already left didn’t know how to run an Airline (unlike every Armchair CEO on this site). The majority of the employees were hard working and dedicated right to the end, and the cherry on the cake for some parts of the Company was that they didn’t pay us our full money in the end, despite guarantees from our CEO and the insolvency company Kebekus representative that we would be paid everything. So, at this stage some people are still being employed within the AB Group on FULL pay, but some who got made redundant at the end of November got stiffed, and unlike passengers who could claim a refund if booked by Credit Card or after the 14th August, we have to join the queue of people owed money. To be made redundant and get 1000 Euro missing from your final pay sucks big time when the company is actually still operational, and in the case of Technik, not in the red with regards to the financial state.
 
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LTU330
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Re: Who will win in the battle to takeover NIKI?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:48 am

.......still, who cares about employees, as someone mentioned that this is not a welfare forum. As long as you get your return ticket from A to B for 2 Euros, who gives a flying one about the people who make that happen.
 
BAorNoWay
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Re: Who will win in the battle to takeover NIKI?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:25 am

Well I for one hope that IAG do purchase the airline. It will be able to secure many of the jobs that are being referred to, and surely that is a big win to begin with.

I appreciate that many would have liked Lufthansa to have bought the airline, but considering it already owns Swiss & Austrian I can see why the European Commission rejected the proposal. IAG does not have much presence in this part of Europe and will offer greater competition to Lufthansa/Swiss/Austrian, so surely that would be an improvement? Yes it’s one of the three big airline groups in Europe, but could a smaller backer really keep the airline going long term? It seems like it needs some significant investment if it is to survive.

Air France/KLM are great airlines but I think they have enough on their plate at the moment so doubt very much they are in the running.

This news article seems to back up what I have stated above:

https://www.thelocal.de/20171217/lauda- ... ki-airline
 
PanHAM
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Re: Who will win in the battle to takeover NIKI?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:44 am

@LTU330 I fully agree with you bt that is how things work, I don't want to be cynical but whoever worked for AB must have seen that coming. It's so with medium and small companies, zjey have been subsidized by an owner for so Long that, at the end of the day, there is nothng left for s ""socal plan". The severance pay at least Comes from mutual funding into which all employees and employers pay.

@BAorNoWay - I'm a great fan of Niki Lauda, be that in his times as F1 Pilot, as an Airline Pilot and as an entrepreneur. As the latter he should shut up. He started 3 or 4 Airlines and walked away from each one with cofffers full of cash. His personal wealth is estimated at 200 Million €, enough to make a deal with the Administrators and to nurse HG through the first months. Instead he blams LH, that's cheap.
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BrianDromey
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Re: Who will win in the battle to takeover NIKI?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:37 pm

zkojq wrote:
I hope its anyone but IAG. Having Europe becoming like the US with airline ownership consolidated towards three major airline groups is not a good thing for consumers. If Lufthansa can't have Niki, IAG (nor AFKL for that matter) shouldn't be able to either.

But you are not comparing like with like. Allowing HG to be owned by AFKL or IAG gives the region a strong international competitor, with strong finances and resources. Ownership by Lauda, would likely be financed with expensive loans or equity from partners, who will want a quick return - the goal would be to flip NIKI to IAG/AFKL, one of the LCCs like Wizz or easyJet, TUI or TCX at a push. An airline with a score of A320s in LH’s backyard will never be a viable stand-alone enterprise.
 
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cougar15
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Re: Who will win in the battle to takeover NIKI?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:45 pm

PanHAM wrote:
@LTU330 I fully agree with you bt that is how things work, I don't want to be cynical but whoever worked for AB must have seen that coming. It's so with medium and small companies, zjey have been subsidized by an owner for so Long that, at the end of the day, there is nothng left for s ""socal plan". The severance pay at least Comes from mutual funding into which all employees and employers pay.

@BAorNoWay - I'm a great fan of Niki Lauda, be that in his times as F1 Pilot, as an Airline Pilot and as an entrepreneur. As the latter he should shut up. He started 3 or 4 Airlines and walked away from each one with cofffers full of cash. His personal wealth is estimated at 200 Million €, enough to make a deal with the Administrators and to nurse HG through the first months. Instead he blams LH, that's cheap.


I agree with PanHAM on this, I think Niki Lauda could make it work again. Alone the name , especially in the DACH Markets does to this day command respect, and ´average Joe Public´ will remember that (even as a non av geek); if he manages to rescue the airline.

No Disrespect to the OP; but your posts & user name suggest you are very one sided on this subject. I greatly respect BA and think IAG are a very smart bunch, but for Niki, there may just be other alternatives that the targeted market will embrace more than IAG.....
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Egerton
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Re: Who will win in the battle to takeover NIKI?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:07 pm

As a pair of very long shots, could a remnant of Niki be the third base for LEVEL using the Niki air operators certificate, and or other Vueling base for IAG?
 
F27500
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Re: Who will win in the battle to takeover NIKI?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:55 pm

What is there actually to take over? Whats their fleet and what makes them a valuable airline to take over that these other carriers couldn't simply duplicate themselves ?
 
F27500
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Re: Who will win in the battle to takeover NIKI?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 5:07 pm

cougar15 wrote:
PanHAM wrote:
@LTU330 I fully agree with you bt that is how things work, I don't want to be cynical but whoever worked for AB must have seen that coming. It's so with medium and small companies, zjey have been subsidized by an owner for so Long that, at the end of the day, there is nothng left for s ""socal plan". The severance pay at least Comes from mutual funding into which all employees and employers pay.

@BAorNoWay - I'm a great fan of Niki Lauda, be that in his times as F1 Pilot, as an Airline Pilot and as an entrepreneur. As the latter he should shut up. He started 3 or 4 Airlines and walked away from each one with cofffers full of cash. His personal wealth is estimated at 200 Million €, enough to make a deal with the Administrators and to nurse HG through the first months. Instead he blams LH, that's cheap.


I agree with PanHAM on this, I think Niki Lauda could make it work again. Alone the name , especially in the DACH Markets does to this day command respect, and ´average Joe Public´ will remember that (even as a non av geek); if he manages to rescue the airline.

No Disrespect to the OP; but your posts & user name suggest you are very one sided on this subject. I greatly respect BA and think IAG are a very smart bunch, but for Niki, there may just be other alternatives that the targeted market will embrace more than IAG.....



If he was so serious about flying his name around, then why did he sell out twice before ?
 
superjeff
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Re: Who will win in the battle to takeover NIKI?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 5:11 pm

[

You could have said the same about Air Berlin employees. Only certain people, most of whom had already left didn’t know how to run an Airline (unlike every Armchair CEO on this site). The majority of the employees were hard working and dedicated right to the end, and the cherry on the cake for some parts of the Company was that they didn’t pay us our full money in the end, despite guarantees from our CEO and the insolvency company Kebekus representative that we would be paid everything. So, at this stage some people are still being employed within the AB Group on FULL pay, but some who got made redundant at the end of November got stiffed, and unlike passengers who could claim a refund if booked by Credit Card or after the 14th August, we have to join the queue of people owed money. To be made redundant and get 1000 Euro missing from your final pay sucks big time when the company is actually still operational, and in the case of Technik, not in the red with regards to the financial state.[/quote]

I agree with you, LTU. Do you know if German insolvency law gives any kind of preference to wages or post-filing incurred bills (i.e., wages)? That's what happens in the U.S. (although in that case you might not get close to 100% of what you're owed from pre-filing, but should for post-filing wages). I sympathize with you (I'm ex Braniff in the U.S. - been there, done that), and I hope that you find another job with another airline quickly.
 
BAorNoWay
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Re: Who will win in the battle to takeover NIKI?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 5:23 pm

Egerton wrote:
As a pair of very long shots, could a remnant of Niki be the third base for LEVEL using the Niki air operators certificate, and or other Vueling base for IAG?


Interesting thought, hadn’t thought of this. I don’t see why some of NIKI’s slots couldn’t be used by Vueling or LEVEL, but I think IAG will want to keep the NIKI brand, I don’t think their intentions would be to get rid of the name.

The slots/employees/infrastructure/airbus aircraft (leased or not) are what IAG and other interested parties are interested for. They can hit the ground running by taking over NIKI which is an established brand in the region. Attempting to build something from scratch would be much more difficult.

I have never flown with NIKI, but from what I have read online apparently it was quite popular in Austria and the markets it served.

I am sure IAG would like to get a foothold in the market that is dominated by the Lufthansa Group.

And yes, to those that have questioned my username, I’m happy to admit I am a fan of BA and the IAG Group, so yes, it would please me no end for IAG to be the winning bidders.
 
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LTU330
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Re: Who will win in the battle to takeover NIKI?

Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:16 pm

superjeff wrote:
[

You could have said the same about Air Berlin employees. Only certain people, most of whom had already left didn’t know how to run an Airline (unlike every Armchair CEO on this site). The majority of the employees were hard working and dedicated right to the end, and the cherry on the cake for some parts of the Company was that they didn’t pay us our full money in the end, despite guarantees from our CEO and the insolvency company Kebekus representative that we would be paid everything. So, at this stage some people are still being employed within the AB Group on FULL pay, but some who got made redundant at the end of November got stiffed, and unlike passengers who could claim a refund if booked by Credit Card or after the 14th August, we have to join the queue of people owed money. To be made redundant and get 1000 Euro missing from your final pay sucks big time when the company is actually still operational, and in the case of Technik, not in the red with regards to the financial state.


I agree with you, LTU. Do you know if German insolvency law gives any kind of preference to wages or post-filing incurred bills (i.e., wages)? That's what happens in the U.S. (although in that case you might not get close to 100% of what you're owed from pre-filing, but should for post-filing wages). I sympathize with you (I'm ex Braniff in the U.S. - been there, done that), and I hope that you find another job with another airline quickly.[/quote]

I am the lucky one. I started a new job within two weeks of being terminated by Air Berlin. The Aircraft I work on now don’t fly passengers so I won’t be interested in people complaining about ticket prices :D My issue is only that Air Berlin Technik is still operational and paying people their full wages, yet they didn’t pay me (and many others) the money they owed me upon termination. I am not talking about severance, I am talking about money owed for hours I worked. That strikes me as illegal because how can they keep operating and paying people if they could not fulfill a condition guaranteed in a meeting witnessed by hundreds of employees ? In law now, you don’t need it written down. If the CEO and insolvency company guaranteed we would receive all the money worked for, and then we didn’t get it, I think they should face court proceedings, but that is just my opinion. I have no idea if I will get the money, probably not. I got very lucky because I have many contacts in the industry. I feel sorry for the rest, people with young families who can get nothing equivalent in this area because LH only want a hand full of people.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Who will win in the battle to takeover NIKI?

Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:30 pm

LH only needs a handful of people. And to be honest it seems like all new bidders for Niki intend to go exactly the route LH wanted to take, which means no existing contracts to be kept and only taking over slots or aircraft lease contracts with employees free to apply for a new contract to new conditions at the new owner.
 
BAorNoWay
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Re: Who will win in the battle to takeover NIKI?

Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:00 pm

Apparently we will hear the results tomorrow according to this article and mr Lauda:

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/insol ... 56774.html
 
mxaxai
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Re: Who will win in the battle to takeover NIKI?

Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:23 pm

BAorNoWay wrote:
Egerton wrote:
As a pair of very long shots, could a remnant of Niki be the third base for LEVEL using the Niki air operators certificate, and or other Vueling base for IAG?


Interesting thought, hadn’t thought of this. I don’t see why some of NIKI’s slots couldn’t be used by Vueling or LEVEL, but I think IAG will want to keep the NIKI brand, I don’t think their intentions would be to get rid of the name.

The slots/employees/infrastructure/airbus aircraft (leased or not) are what IAG and other interested parties are interested for. They can hit the ground running by taking over NIKI which is an established brand in the region. Attempting to build something from scratch would be much more difficult.

I have never flown with NIKI, but from what I have read online apparently it was quite popular in Austria and the markets it served.

I am sure IAG would like to get a foothold in the market that is dominated by the Lufthansa Group.

And yes, to those that have questioned my username, I’m happy to admit I am a fan of BA and the IAG Group, so yes, it would please me no end for IAG to be the winning bidders.

NIKI was probably fairly popular and well known in Austria. At least the original NIKI with the grey livery was. In Germany, no so much. It was mostly "AB operated by NIKI" and that's all the customer saw.
Vueling on the other hand is difficult to pronounce (for Germans), so I don't know if that's a better brand.
 
superjeff
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Re: Who will win in the battle to takeover NIKI?

Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:08 pm

LTU330 wrote:
[
I am the lucky one. I started a new job within two weeks of being terminated by Air Berlin. The Aircraft I work on now don’t fly passengers so I won’t be interested in people complaining about ticket prices :D My issue is only that Air Berlin Technik is still operational and paying people their full wages, yet they didn’t pay me (and many others) the money they owed me upon termination. I am not talking about severance, I am talking about money owed for hours I worked. That strikes me as illegal because how can they keep operating and paying people if they could not fulfill a condition guaranteed in a meeting witnessed by hundreds of employees ? In law now, you don’t need it written down. If the CEO and insolvency company guaranteed we would receive all the money worked for, and then we didn’t get it, I think they should face court proceedings, but that is just my opinion. I have no idea if I will get the money, probably not. I got very lucky because I have many contacts in the industry. I feel sorry for the rest, people with young families who can get nothing equivalent in this area because LH only want a hand full of people.



Glad you landed on your feet quickly, LTU330. I don't know anything about German insolvency law, but assuming it is similar to the U.S. and Canada, the "Estate" of the insolvent debtor is not liable for pre-filing wages (which are probably a "priority" claim that get paid before the general creditors, but any post-filing obligations should be paid in full. I would ask a bankruptcy lawyer or contact the Court which has responsibility. You may have to file some kind of Claim with them (which I would do ASAP).
 
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LTU330
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Re: Who will win in the battle to takeover NIKI?

Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:21 am

superjeff wrote:
LTU330 wrote:
[
I am the lucky one. I started a new job within two weeks of being terminated by Air Berlin. The Aircraft I work on now don’t fly passengers so I won’t be interested in people complaining about ticket prices :D My issue is only that Air Berlin Technik is still operational and paying people their full wages, yet they didn’t pay me (and many others) the money they owed me upon termination. I am not talking about severance, I am talking about money owed for hours I worked. That strikes me as illegal because how can they keep operating and paying people if they could not fulfill a condition guaranteed in a meeting witnessed by hundreds of employees ? In law now, you don’t need it written down. If the CEO and insolvency company guaranteed we would receive all the money worked for, and then we didn’t get it, I think they should face court proceedings, but that is just my opinion. I have no idea if I will get the money, probably not. I got very lucky because I have many contacts in the industry. I feel sorry for the rest, people with young families who can get nothing equivalent in this area because LH only want a hand full of people.



Glad you landed on your feet quickly, LTU330. I don't know anything about German insolvency law, but assuming it is similar to the U.S. and Canada, the "Estate" of the insolvent debtor is not liable for pre-filing wages (which are probably a "priority" claim that get paid before the general creditors, but any post-filing obligations should be paid in full. I would ask a bankruptcy lawyer or contact the Court which has responsibility. You may have to file some kind of Claim with them (which I would do ASAP).


I actually received a letter explaining how I can claim the money. My anger at this is why should I have to claim it ? There are people working for Air Berlin Technik until the end of February 2018 and they are getting paid. It’s a big mess to be honest. Like I said before I doubt I will ever get all the money owed to me.
 
BAorNoWay
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Re: Who will win in the battle to takeover NIKI?

Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:49 pm

Apparently there is only one bidder left in the process now, so most probably either TUI Group or IAG.

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/one-b ... 54409.html
 
BAorNoWay
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Re: Who will win in the battle to takeover NIKI?

Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:07 pm

And according to this article, it appears that IAG are the one remaining bidder although the sources have not been identified. IAG certainly has the deepest pockets out of the other potential bidders but just how much are they likely to pay for NIKI?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/reuter ... s-out.html
 
BAorNoWay
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Re: Who will win in the battle to takeover NIKI?

Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:30 pm

The last remaining bidder is IAG and they are currently negotiating a double digit offer for NIKI thought to be in the region of 40 million euros.

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/one-b ... 04393.html
 
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seahawk
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Re: Who will win in the battle to takeover NIKI?

Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:02 pm

Good news for the customer. I hope they put LH under some pressure and will not simply go for routes to Spain.
 
Andy33
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Re: Who will win in the battle to takeover NIKI?

Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:23 pm

seahawk wrote:
Good news for the customer. I hope they put LH under some pressure and will not simply go for routes to Spain.

But of course Niki's speciality was shorthaul leisure destinations. Their fleet, slots, contracts for ground services, crewing levels were all optimised for this, and with the IATA summer season being only 3 months off starting, there won't be much time to organise anything else. Now because "optimised" in this case means "optimised by Air Berlin" there's probably some scope for improvement, but there are almost bound to be flights to Spain. Indeed if there aren't there will probably be a shortage of capacity.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Who will win in the battle to takeover NIKI?

Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:35 pm

I meant in the long run. But on the other hand it makes sense, as it is Niki´s core competency and a market in dire need of extra capacity.
 
LupineChemist
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Re: Who will win in the battle to takeover NIKI?

Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:09 pm

BAorNoWay wrote:
The last remaining bidder is IAG and they are currently negotiating a double digit offer for NIKI thought to be in the region of 40 million euros.

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/one-b ... 04393.html


That seems to be a pretty reasonable price to pay to get an operation that's ready to go rather than starting up from zero in central Europe.

I suspect it will just all go to the Vueling brand.
 
BAorNoWay
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Re: Who will win in the battle to takeover NIKI?

Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:03 pm

LupineChemist wrote:
BAorNoWay wrote:
The last remaining bidder is IAG and they are currently negotiating a double digit offer for NIKI thought to be in the region of 40 million euros.

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/one-b ... 04393.html


That seems to be a pretty reasonable price to pay to get an operation that's ready to go rather than starting up from zero in central Europe.

I suspect it will just all go to the Vueling brand.



Putting Niki into Vueling would make logical sense, but I have a sneaky feeling that IAG might actually keep the NIKI brand and run the airline as another subsidiary like the rest of the airlines in the IAG portfolio.

Vueling is popular in the markets it already serves, but the NIKI brand was popular and I don’t see why they won’t want to capitalise on this.

If IAG decides to place a larger order for the A321neoLR’s for the groups airlines, some interesting routes could be opened up by NIKI.
 
superjeff
Posts: 1310
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:14 am

Re: Who will win in the battle to takeover NIKI?

Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:40 pm

LTU330 wrote:
superjeff wrote:
LTU330 wrote:
[
I am the lucky one. I started a new job within two weeks of being terminated by Air Berlin. The Aircraft I work on now don’t fly passengers so I won’t be interested in people complaining about ticket prices :D My issue is only that Air Berlin Technik is still operational and paying people their full wages, yet they didn’t pay me (and many others) the money they owed me upon termination. I am not talking about severance, I am talking about money owed for hours I worked. That strikes me as illegal because how can they keep operating and paying people if they could not fulfill a condition guaranteed in a meeting witnessed by hundreds of employees ? In law now, you don’t need it written down. If the CEO and insolvency company guaranteed we would receive all the money worked for, and then we didn’t get it, I think they should face court proceedings, but that is just my opinion. I have no idea if I will get the money, probably not. I got very lucky because I have many contacts in the industry. I feel sorry for the rest, people with young families who can get nothing equivalent in this area because LH only want a hand full of people.



Glad you landed on your feet quickly, LTU330. I don't know anything about German insolvency law, but assuming it is similar to the U.S. and Canada, the "Estate" of the insolvent debtor is not liable for pre-filing wages (which are probably a "priority" claim that get paid before the general creditors, but any post-filing obligations should be paid in full. I would ask a bankruptcy lawyer or contact the Court which has responsibility. You may have to file some kind of Claim with them (which I would do ASAP).


I actually received a letter explaining how I can claim the money. My anger at this is why should I have to claim it ? There are people working for Air Berlin Technik until the end of February 2018 and they are getting paid. It’s a big mess to be honest. Like I said before I doubt I will ever get all the money owed to me.


Bankruptcy law is very technical, and also very much paper driven. If you don't file the claim, nobody will pay. There is only so much money available (in the case of AirBerlin, it is probably largely the money paid by Lufthansa to purchase the assets they bought from the Estate.

Fill out your paperwork and get it in ASAP because if you miss the deadline, you'll get nothing.
 
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seahawk
Posts: 9330
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Re: Who will win in the battle to takeover NIKI?

Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:37 am

BAorNoWay wrote:
LupineChemist wrote:
BAorNoWay wrote:
The last remaining bidder is IAG and they are currently negotiating a double digit offer for NIKI thought to be in the region of 40 million euros.

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/one-b ... 04393.html


That seems to be a pretty reasonable price to pay to get an operation that's ready to go rather than starting up from zero in central Europe.

I suspect it will just all go to the Vueling brand.



Putting Niki into Vueling would make logical sense, but I have a sneaky feeling that IAG might actually keep the NIKI brand and run the airline as another subsidiary like the rest of the airlines in the IAG portfolio.

Vueling is popular in the markets it already serves, but the NIKI brand was popular and I don’t see why they won’t want to capitalise on this.

If IAG decides to place a larger order for the A321neoLR’s for the groups airlines, some interesting routes could be opened up by NIKI.


Niki as a brand was largely killed by AB. Many people had their AB or Niki flights cancelled in the last 6 months and even before that the customer opinion of AB/Niki was low. Vueling is a neutral brand in DACH and imho preferable to Niki. What they could do is relaunch the "Mallorca Shuttle" under the Vueling brand. This would dip into the good memories of AB.
 
PanHAM
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Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

Re: Who will win in the battle to takeover NIKI?

Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:46 am

I cannot imagine that an artificial Name like VUELING can be successful in the DACH market. They dropped out of BCNFRA because tey could not compete with LH.
With what does the average German associate VUELING? One does not even know how to pronounce it. They should learn from the Condor/Thomas Koch Desaster and Keep Niki as Niki.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
SCQ83
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Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: Who will win in the battle to takeover NIKI?

Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:50 am

seahawk wrote:
Niki as a brand was largely killed by AB. Many people had their AB or Niki flights cancelled in the last 6 months and even before that the customer opinion of AB/Niki was low. Vueling is a neutral brand in DACH and imho preferable to Niki. What they could do is relaunch the "Mallorca Shuttle" under the Vueling brand. This would dip into the good memories of AB.


Vueling is quite a dreadful brand. Outside of its home in Barcelona and some airports with little low-cost competition (like Bilbao), VY is failure after failure. Quite a few European bases have been closed or downsized over the years (FCO, BRU, CDG, etc). Even in major airports like Valencia they struggle to compete with Ryanair. For 2018 they are even closing most of the UK-Spain beach routes. So a low-cost carrier belonging to a British-Spanish (IAG) conglomerate cannot make work Manchester-Alicante or Birmingham-Málaga... which are extremely busy routes where everything gets filled.

LEVEL on the other hand seems to be very successful from BCN. I suspect that if it becomes successful in Paris as well, we might see Vueling disappearing (brand value is low) and everything becoming LEVEL. It does not make a lot of sense either to keep two different brands for short and long haul. Probably Vueling's brand problem is the very reason why IAG started LEVEL instead of Vueling "long haul"

Regarding VIE, I think for IAG the interesting thing would be long-haul low-cost (read: LEVEL). VIE has no low-cost long-haul, neither anywhere nearby in Eastern Europe (and VIE is not far from Slovakia, Czech Republic, Slovenia and Hungary). VIE is a tourism hotspot and much closer to Asia than any IAG hub (LHR, MAD, DUB).
 
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seahawk
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Re: Who will win in the battle to takeover NIKI?

Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:13 am

I agree that Vueling is not a shining brand either, but Niki is also badly damaged. Level could be a solution indeed.
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5596
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: Who will win in the battle to takeover NIKI?

Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:29 am

seahawk wrote:
I agree that Vueling is not a shining brand either, but Niki is also badly damaged. Level could be a solution indeed.


Also NIKI is quite a bad brand name outside the German-speaking world (no offense to Niki Lauda). In Spanish it sounds really stupid/amateur and I suspect English speakers will think of Nike.
 
WIederling
Posts: 9292
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Who will win in the battle to takeover NIKI?

Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:09 pm

superjeff wrote:
I agree with you, LTU. Do you know if German insolvency law gives any kind of preference to wages or post-filing incurred bills (i.e., wages)? That's what happens in the U.S. (although in that case you might not get close to 100% of what you're owed from pre-filing, but should for post-filing wages).


pensions are save via the "Rentenversicherung" no way a company can "lose" those.
wages are taken up by the "Arbeitslosenversicherung" as "Konkursausfallgeld" ( <<100%, but untaxed ) max 3 month).
( The "Arbeitslosenversicherung" then stands in as a Creditor in the insolvency proceedings.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
tobsw
Posts: 104
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:29 pm

IAG buys NIKI for 20m EUR

Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:37 pm

IAG has finally agreed to pay 20 m EUR for any remaining NIKI actives. It has also agreed to inject liquidity up to 16.5 m EUR.

The transaction will be carried out through the creation of a new Vueling subsidiary airline that will be incorporated as an Austrian company. Initially the new airline will operate independently.

The assets include a maximum of fifteen A320 family aircraft and an attractive portfolio of slots at several airports, including Vienna, Dusseldorf, Munich, Palma or Zurich.

The new company plans to hire approximately 740 Niki employees.

All pending EC approval.

So far, the press release is only available on the Spanish IAG website:
http://www.es.iairgroup.com/phoenix.zht ... 50&p=index
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 22961
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: IAG buys NIKI for 20m EUR

Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:44 pm

Nice to see a somewhat more competitive landscape than LH grabbing everything.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
GianiDC
Posts: 179
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:30 pm

Re: IAG buys NIKI for 20m EUR

Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:53 pm

Sounds like they will continue to employ the majority of people. How many do they have at the moment? The question is, do they prolong the existing contracts or go the LH way and basically terminate the old contracts and let former employees reapply for their respective postion on the open market.
With the above information it sounds to me that the goal is to create Vueling Europe just like Easyjet Europe and Eurowings Europe.
 
BAorNoWay
Topic Author
Posts: 58
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:37 am

Re: Who will win in the battle to takeover NIKI?

Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:55 pm

The announcement we have all been waiting for:

https://www.ft.com/content/358464e8-ecd ... 3b1d7ca85a
 
T1a
Posts: 57
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:41 pm

Re: IAG buys NIKI for 20m EUR

Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:10 pm

Sorry to say, but if all of the above is true, I don't like this deal. Founding a new Austrian based company means the current Niki employees will have to re-apply for their own jobs. They will be offered new contracts, which will most likely be worse than their current CBA, which already isn't very good. Also a good way to get rid of “unwanted“ employees, such as high profile union members. The downwards spiral in European aviation contracts just can't seem to stop.

While I wasn't a fan of the LH deal either at least it would have been better for employees and creditors alike. LH wanted to pay 192m€ and would have kept the whole company as one.
All views expressed under this username are mine as a private person and don't necessarily reflect the views of my employer.
 
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snn2003
Posts: 248
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 7:52 am

Re: IAG buys NIKI for 20m EUR

Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:11 pm

Keeping~740 employees is not too bad. They only had about 850 when they closed.
On behalf of your entire Boston based crew, thanks for flying with us today.
 
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Revelation
Posts: 22961
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: IAG buys NIKI for 20m EUR

Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:17 pm

T1a wrote:
Sorry to say, but if all of the above is true, I don't like this deal. Founding a new Austrian based company means the current Niki employees will have to re-apply for their own jobs. They will be offered new contracts, which will most likely be worse than their current CBA, which already isn't very good. Also a good way to get rid of “unwanted“ employees, such as high profile union members. The downwards spiral in European aviation contracts just can't seem to stop.

While I wasn't a fan of the LH deal either at least it would have been better for employees and creditors alike. LH wanted to pay 192m€ and would have kept the whole company as one.

The reply right before you says LH makes people re-apply for their jobs too.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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redzeppelin
Posts: 1162
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:30 pm

Re: Who will win in the battle to takeover NIKI?

Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:22 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
I suspect English speakers will think of Nike.


I associate Niki with a feminine name, and expect most or many English speakers will do the same. "Niki" or "Nicki" or something similar is often used as the familiar or diminutive form of female names like Nicole or Nicola. I know several Nikis -- adults and children. It's pretty common in the USA at least. I have a positive attitude about Niki, although I've never flown with them.
Last edited by redzeppelin on Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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