ADrum23
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AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:26 am

What are some similarities and differences between AA's CLT hub today and DL's CVG hub back in the early 2000's? Both seem to have similar levels of service (600+ flights a day). Is there any danger of CLT ending up the same way CVG did (not necessarily now, but in the future)? After all, CLT is not a very strong O&D market compared to the other AA hubs. It would be devastating for CLT if AA ever cut back there, they do not have a lot of alternatives. My thinking is the only reason it will continue to exist, and exist at the level it is currently at, is because of DL in ATL.

I'm not suggesting AA will cut back CLT, I just want to know if anyone sees any similarities between the current AA CLT hub and DL's CVG hub before it was drastically cut back.
 
cvgComair
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:40 am

CLT and CVG are very similar hubs size wise. Both cities are very similar in population and business demand. Throughout much of the 90's and early 00's, CVG and CLT were essentially the same size in terms of passengers and daily flights. CVG unfortunately had everything that go wrong that could go wrong. Everything turned sour after the Comair pilot strike, before that, CVG was almost the same size as CLT and growing at a much faster rate. I think CLT progressed much in the same way CVG would have had it remained a large hub for DL including the reduction of 50-seaters, more mainline, adding more Europe flights. The big difference is CLT fit in with the new AA network while CVG did not fit in the new DL network. Since CLT fits well into the AA network, I don't think the hub is in any danger.
Last edited by cvgComair on Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
bfitzflyer
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:40 am

Never say never, but CLT is not surrounded by other AA hubs like CVG is by ATL and DTW. Yes, DCA and MIA are around it, but MIA is not good for connecting north./south except Caribbean and South America and DCA has no ability to really grow as well as no international excluding a few routes to Canada/Caribbean..
 
727LOVER
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:46 am

ADrum23 wrote:
After all, CLT is not a very strong O&D market compared to the other AA hubs.


AA has publicly stated that CLT is its most profitable hub
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cvgComair
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:52 am

It all depends on the way the mergers went. For instance, had US/DL merger gone through, CLT probably would have lost out to ATL, and CVG would have remained a major hub for the new airline. Both hubs had extremely low costs and from all accounts seem like they were profitable operations for their respective airlines (it was not CVG's fault that DL gave OH the smallest and oldest RJ's that were the first to go when fuel prices skyrocketed). Despite the lower O&D in CVG and CLT, both hubs are/were structured with high frequencies on a rolling structure, allowing DL and US/AA to make lots of money cheaply connecting pax through.

727LOVER wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
After all, CLT is not a very strong O&D market compared to the other AA hubs.

AA has publicly stated that CLT is its most profitable hub

It may not be high O&D, but that does not mean its weak. A city of 2-3 million like CLT/CVG has quite the business demand, which AA gets essentially a monopoly on by having a hub in CLT. Sure premium demand from strong O&D markets is profitable, but AA has DCA/JFK/LAX/ORD for that, CLT gives them a place to cheaply connect pax, which can be very profitable if structured and managed correctly.
 
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RetiredNWA
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:20 am

cvgComair wrote:
CLT and CVG are very similar hubs size wise. Both cities are very similar in population and business demand. Throughout much of the 90's and early 00's, CVG and CLT were essentially the same size in terms of passengers and daily flights. CVG unfortunately had everything that go wrong that could go wrong. Everything turned sour after the Comair pilot strike, before that, CVG was almost the same size as CLT and growing at a much faster rate. I think CLT progressed much in the same way CVG would have had it remained a large hub for DL including the reduction of 50-seaters, more mainline, adding more Europe flights. The big difference is CLT fit in with the new AA network while CVG did not fit in the new DL network. Since CLT fits well into the AA network, I don't think the hub is in any danger.


Show us the statistics to back-up the pure conjecture in this post...you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. You are 99.9% incorrect, where are you getting this information?
 
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flyPIT
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:23 am

The OP is comparing CVG at its peak to CLT today and citing the 600+ flights in each case. But CVG's 600+ flights garnered 23 million passengers while CLT's 600+ is bringing in 45 million, due to use of larger aircraft. There's just no comparison between the two.

In the Southeast ATL and CLT are the only game in town so if dehubbed someone would most likely move in and set up a hub. But CVG is surrounded by DTW, IND, CLE, PIT, etc all of which have (and had) the same hub potential as CVG if it came down to a hypothetical matter of mergers, bankruptcies, etc. But even the only surviving hub in the region, DTW, is significantly smaller than CLT and that's with a metro area double the size.
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klm617
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:49 am

flyPIT wrote:
The OP is comparing CVG at its peak to CLT today and citing the 600+ flights in each case. But CVG's 600+ flights garnered 23 million passengers while CLT's 600+ is bringing in 45 million, due to use of larger aircraft. There's just no comparison between the two.

In the Southeast ATL and CLT are the only game in town so if dehubbed someone would most likely move in and set up a hub. But CVG is surrounded by DTW, IND, CLE, PIT, etc all of which have (and had) the same hub potential as CVG if it came down to a hypothetical matter of mergers, bankruptcies, etc. But even the only surviving hub in the region, DTW, is significantly smaller than CLT and that's with a metro area double the size.



Yes but keep in mind that AA more evenly divides it's traffic where DL does not. Delta makes sure it's keeps Detroit in check. In the NW days DTW was a bigger operation than CLT is.
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klm617
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:51 am

bfitzflyer wrote:
Never say never, but CLT is not surrounded by other AA hubs like CVG is by ATL and DTW. Yes, DCA and MIA are around it, but MIA is not good for connecting north./south except Caribbean and South America and DCA has no ability to really grow as well as no international excluding a few routes to Canada/Caribbean..
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
EarlyLateORD
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:25 am

The only 3 cities that could support a hub in the Southeast are CLT/ATL and RDU. CLT and ATL will excel for foreseeable future. UA will continue trying to serve the Southeast out of IAH and IAD and continue lagging behind AA and DL. CVG is surrounded by hubs, former hubs and potential hubs, there was just no way they could compete with the economies and efficiency of DTW and MSP in the DL network.

The biggest difference, though? The A321...CLT can fill A321's to places you just wouldn't think they could, but they do.

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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:28 am

RetiredNWA wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
CLT and CVG are very similar hubs size wise. Both cities are very similar in population and business demand. Throughout much of the 90's and early 00's, CVG and CLT were essentially the same size in terms of passengers and daily flights. CVG unfortunately had everything that go wrong that could go wrong. Everything turned sour after the Comair pilot strike, before that, CVG was almost the same size as CLT and growing at a much faster rate. I think CLT progressed much in the same way CVG would have had it remained a large hub for DL including the reduction of 50-seaters, more mainline, adding more Europe flights. The big difference is CLT fit in with the new AA network while CVG did not fit in the new DL network. Since CLT fits well into the AA network, I don't think the hub is in any danger.


Show us the statistics to back-up the pure conjecture in this post...you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. You are 99.9% incorrect, where are you getting this information?

Pure-Conjecture? In 2000, CLT had 23.0 million pax and CVG had 22.5 million. Cincinnati MSA is 2.1 million, Charlotte is 1.7 million. That is the same exact size... I am trying to focus on CLT and CVG when they were the same size, comparing the CLT of today to the CVG (and CLT) of 2000 is crazy. The difference in sizes today are evidence of how the industry changed two hubs that were quite similar before 9/11. If the cards had played out differently, CVG could have undergone the exact process CLT has over the years: eliminating RJ's, upgrading aircraft, raising pax numbers significantly. Unlike CVG, CLT has a much stronger geographic position compared to CVG relative to other hubs, which is why its hub status is safe for the foreseeable future.
Last edited by cvgComair on Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
USAirALB
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:34 am

I believe at its peak CVG was around 595-600 daily departures. CLT has since surpassed that. In addition, traffic at the hub was largely RJ traffic. Looking at some data from departedflights.com, in 2004, only 162 out of 595 departures were on mainline aircraft. CLT has a much higher mainline to regional traffic ratio. I'm not saying that CLT doesn't have a lot of RJ traffic (which it does), it just has more mainline activity than CVG ever had.

CLT now is somewhat going through an "Atlantification" process in regards to mainline aircraft. Several smaller markets are seeing an introduction (or reintroduction) of mainline aircraft.

I will say that DL did serve more Western Cities from CVG than AA/US ever did from CLT. SNA/ONT/YVR/COS/BIL/ANC all were served from CVG at one point, and all never had CLT service. CVG is better situated geographically to connect East and West than CLT is.

CLT features more international service than CVG ever did, but again, a large portion of that results from geography. CLT simply serves as a better US-Latin America/Caribbean transfer point that CVG does.

Edit: CVG also had many more domestic widebody departures than CLT ever had, although it's likely the result of DL having a dedicated 763 domestic fleet. According to a 2003 DL timetable, B763s operated on CVG-ATL/FLL/BDL/LAS/LAX/JFK/MCO/PDX/SLC/SFO/PBI, in addition to the 763 scheduled on CVG-LGW, and the 777s scheduled on CVG-FRA/CDG.

Even today, CLT only has domestic widebody service to PHX/PHL/MCO/MIA.
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:01 am

CVG/CLT not quiet the same.

CVG was dominated by Regional Jets competing with hubs ranging from ORD/DTW and a host of had been’s like CLeE/PIT and so on.

Even under USAir, CLT was a great N-S hub as well as ramping up European flights. It has only 1 other competing hub in ATL. It also nicely fits into AA’s system for Europe and possibly a Carribean hub.
 
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:33 am

CLT is an strong hub for AA now, but it did sadly get a few international cuts. In Europe, MAN, BRU, and LIS were cut short. BCN is still operated I believe. Otherwise, LGW was cut but LHR is now operated twice daily which is much better. GRU and GIG were both cut as well. MAN, BRU, and LIS were no doubt cut short because they weren't profitable, but was GRU and GIG ever profitable? Or was it cut in order to focus on other USA-GRU routes instead? I think FRA was also downgraded to one daily instead of double daily. PHL-FRA was even made seasonal.

In conclusion, there has been a few cuts (MAN, BRU, LIS, GRU, GIG) and downgrades (FRA from twice to once daily), and increases (like LHR going from once to twice daily). So overall, the CLT is still strong I believe, but a few cuts were made however.

While unrelated, LH has been flying MUC-CLT for years. Before the merger, when US Airways was in Star, it was operated with an A346. Will the impact of US Airways leaving Star and them joining oneworld (getting rid of connection options in CLT) impact Lufthansa to cut or reduce the MUC-CLT route in the future? What makes the route exist?
 
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:44 am

klm617 wrote:
Delta makes sure it's keeps Detroit in check. In the NW days DTW was a bigger operation than CLT is.

DTW was just as stagnant under NW in the 10 years prior to the merger as with DL after. 34 million in 1999 and 35 million in 2008. Contrast that to CLT which has seen explosive growth by both US and AA before and after the merger.
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ADrum23
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 5:04 am

vadodara wrote:
It also nicely fits into AA’s system for Europe and possibly a Carribean hub.


Problem is, only LHR and FRA are served year round from CLT. PHL, JFK and even ORD are emphasized more for European connections. Plus, to my knowledge, more Carribean traffic goes through MIA than CLT, so CLT really doesn't serve a purpose to either of those things.
 
USAirALB
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 5:04 am

NichCage wrote:
CLT is an strong hub for AA now, but it did sadly get a few international cuts. In Europe, MAN, BRU, and LIS were cut short. BCN is still operated I believe. Otherwise, LGW was cut but LHR is now operated twice daily which is much better. GRU and GIG were both cut as well. MAN, BRU, and LIS were no doubt cut short because they weren't profitable, but was GRU and GIG ever profitable? Or was it cut in order to focus on other USA-GRU routes instead? I think FRA was also downgraded to one daily instead of double daily. PHL-FRA was even made seasonal.

In conclusion, there has been a few cuts (MAN, BRU, LIS, GRU, GIG) and downgrades (FRA from twice to once daily), and increases (like LHR going from once to twice daily). So overall, the CLT is still strong I believe, but a few cuts were made however.

While unrelated, LH has been flying MUC-CLT for years. Before the merger, when US Airways was in Star, it was operated with an A346. Will the impact of US Airways leaving Star and them joining oneworld (getting rid of connection options in CLT) impact Lufthansa to cut or reduce the MUC-CLT route in the future? What makes the route exist?

It's widely rumored that CLT-MAN/BRU/LIS/BCN were only started (with excess equipment) to appease government officials that CLT would not be dehubbed. They were never intended to stick around. BCN did however stick around, and continues seasonally to this day with an A330. CLT-MAN did not work because the route did not have the right equipment. The traffic/demand for the route is there, especially in summer season. I wouldn't be surprised to see it come back one day.

CLT-LGW was canceled because US ended operations at Gatwick and transferred all London operations to Heathrow. The LGW-CLT flight was the last Gatwick-USA flight operated by a US carrier.

CLT-FRA was only twice daily in the summer peak season. The route was a *A hub to hub flight. With the loss of the *A feed, there was no reason for the flight to operate twice daily. The Metrolina area has an incredible amount of German businesses in the area. CLT-FRA could exist today on O/D traffic alone.

CLT-MUC operates due the BMW operation in Spartanburg, along with the other German businesses in the Metrolina area. The flight continues to operate year round with an A333 (the high J version). The route used to be daily in the summer and 5x weekly in the Winter, but it appears the flight now operates daily year round, which I suppose is a good sign. The A346 will ocassionally operate on the route, as it did twice within the last week.
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paulsaz
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 5:49 am

I wonder how PIT at its largest for US compares to CLT now?
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 5:50 am

cvgComair wrote:
CLT and CVG are very similar hubs size wise. Both cities are very similar in population and business demand.


Not trying to knock on Cincy obviously, but Charlotte in terms of air travel demand is much higher. Charlotte has a higher GDP, faster population growth, and business demand is higher in Charlotte as well due to the Banking industry.

Just for an example Bank of America's 2016 U.S.-Booked Air Volume was $168 million, compared to P&Gs $57 million.

If you look at O&D to key markets for Q1
CLT-NYC=1909 PDEW
CVG-NYC=390 PDEW
CLT-WAS=618 PDEW
CVG-WAS=257 PDEW
CLT-ORD=555 PDEW
CVG-ORD=235 PDEW
CLT-BOS=630 PDEW
CVG-BOS=156 PDEW
e.t.c, e.t.c you get the point

Nothing on CVG, I just don't think it is fair to say CLT and CVG carry the same business demand.
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michman
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 5:52 am

Nevermind...
 
SFOtoORD
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:02 am

Economically Cincinnati is no match for Charlotte over the longer term either. There is far more growth in the Southeast than there is in Ohio.
 
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:04 am

paulsaz wrote:
I wonder how PIT at its largest for US compares to CLT now?


http://www.departedflights.com/USPIThub.html

PIT peaked at 532 flights in July 2001 and had been around 500 daily flights for much of the 1990's. Like CVG it was much more RJ focused than current CLT. They were over 50% of flights from Dec 2001 until de-hub.
 
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:18 pm

CLT is a banking center. That alone drives more numbers than city popation.

CLT (and region) are growing. Upper midwest stagnant or shrinking
 
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enilria
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:21 pm

CVG only had something like 2 mainline non-DL flights at its peak and was something like 80% RJs at DL. I have in my head there were less than 30 mainline DL departures at one point near the peak.

CLT has at times had the lowest % RJs of any USA hub. Haven't looked lately but I'm sure the RJ numbers are still low by comparison. I think that's a key difference.
 
vadodara
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:24 pm

ADrum23 wrote:
vadodara wrote:
It also nicely fits into AA’s system for Europe and possibly a Carribean hub.


Problem is, only LHR and FRA are served year round from CLT. PHL, JFK and even ORD are emphasized more for European connections. Plus, to my knowledge, more Carribean traffic goes through MIA than CLT, so CLT really doesn't serve a purpose to either of those things.


Fair points; however, was only comparing CLT to CVG.

USAir was never dominant to Europe and used both PHL/CLT to throw some service across the Atlantic.

Both JFK/MIA have a head start to flights to Europe/SA. In that regard, CLT will be more closely tied to growth in SE USA than anything. IMHO, as a hub, CLT can only grow.

I would point out that only around and after the 96 Olympic Games did ATL pick up the extent of Int flights it now has. So CLT will require some event or growth for this development to happen.
 
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:26 pm

NichCage wrote:
CLT is an strong hub for AA now, but it did sadly get a few international cuts. In Europe, MAN, BRU, and LIS were cut short. BCN is still operated I believe. Otherwise, LGW was cut but LHR is now operated twice daily which is much better. GRU and GIG were both cut as well. MAN, BRU, and LIS were no doubt cut short because they weren't profitable, but was GRU and GIG ever profitable? Or was it cut in order to focus on other USA-GRU routes instead? I think FRA was also downgraded to one daily instead of double daily. PHL-FRA was even made seasonal.

In conclusion, there has been a few cuts (MAN, BRU, LIS, GRU, GIG) and downgrades (FRA from twice to once daily), and increases (like LHR going from once to twice daily). So overall, the CLT is still strong I believe, but a few cuts were made however.

While unrelated, LH has been flying MUC-CLT for years. Before the merger, when US Airways was in Star, it was operated with an A346. Will the impact of US Airways leaving Star and them joining oneworld (getting rid of connection options in CLT) impact Lufthansa to cut or reduce the MUC-CLT route in the future? What makes the route exist?


Yep. To CLT/MUC, there is lit of German Auto traffic that relies on LH feed into MUC. Certainly USAir feed on the other side helped. Yours truly has used that in the past. That option would not exist now.
 
jasoncrh
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:41 pm

Not true. Lufthansa maintains an interline agreement with AA and receives lots of feed traffic from AA at CLT. yes, the primary reason it exists is the paid business traffic generated by the nearby BMW factory, but coach is filled up with local Charlotte people going to Europe and beyond as well as feed traffic from AA, mostly Germans going to Florida.

vadodara wrote:
NichCage wrote:
CLT is an strong hub for AA now, but it did sadly get a few international cuts. In Europe, MAN, BRU, and LIS were cut short. BCN is still operated I believe. Otherwise, LGW was cut but LHR is now operated twice daily which is much better. GRU and GIG were both cut as well. MAN, BRU, and LIS were no doubt cut short because they weren't profitable, but was GRU and GIG ever profitable? Or was it cut in order to focus on other USA-GRU routes instead? I think FRA was also downgraded to one daily instead of double daily. PHL-FRA was even made seasonal.

In conclusion, there has been a few cuts (MAN, BRU, LIS, GRU, GIG) and downgrades (FRA from twice to once daily), and increases (like LHR going from once to twice daily). So overall, the CLT is still strong I believe, but a few cuts were made however.

While unrelated, LH has been flying MUC-CLT for years. Before the merger, when US Airways was in Star, it was operated with an A346. Will the impact of US Airways leaving Star and them joining oneworld (getting rid of connection options in CLT) impact Lufthansa to cut or reduce the MUC-CLT route in the future? What makes the route exist?


Yep. To CLT/MUC, there is lit of German Auto traffic that relies on LH feed into MUC. Certainly USAir feed on the other side helped. Yours truly has used that in the past. That option would not exist now.
 
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chepos
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:47 pm

CLT-GIG was started because LUS could not get slots into GRU. Once GRU slots became available GIG lost some steam. Throw in the merger and the Brazilian economic crisis and CLT GRU met it’s demise. I’m not sure CLT GRU/GIG are necessary in the system with now MIA as a hub.
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LAXdude1023
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:29 pm

727LOVER wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
After all, CLT is not a very strong O&D market compared to the other AA hubs.


AA has publicly stated that CLT is its most profitable hub


Indeed it is because domestic traffic is more profitable than international traffic right now. The same reason UA has publicly stated DEN is their most profitable hub.
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Cubsrule
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 5:45 pm

chepos wrote:
CLT-GIG was started because LUS could not get slots into GRU. Once GRU slots became available GIG lost some steam. Throw in the merger and the Brazilian economic crisis and CLT GRU met it’s demise. I’m not sure CLT GRU/GIG are necessary in the system with now MIA as a hub.


Agreed. If Brasil’s economy pick up some more steam and slots become less of an issue (e.g. through more coordination with LATAM), perhaps CLT-GRU could succeed through the sheer strength of the hub. But it’s certainly more a “want” than a “need;” MIA and DFW handle connections reasonably well.
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Flighty
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:18 pm

There is no comparison whatsoever.

CLT is one of the largest, most profitable airline hubs on Earth. Yes, ATL is bigger and even more profitable. That is the ONLY reason why people can question CLT. CLT and ATL together preside over one of the most economically vibrant, growing regions on Earth, the Southeastern USA, with a population of 100 million and an economy of $5 trillion. The economy of France is $2.6 trillion USD. This duopoly rakes in massive profits.

There was an informal contest between PIT and CLT in the mid-2000s over who would get de-hubbed. It was determined that CLT had lower costs, better connective geography and would, over time, grow to be a bigger city than PIT. So the de-hubbed PIT. This was a correct call that has made AA/US a lot of money.
 
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:09 pm

Both serve(d) two very different purposes within their respective networks. CVG was the Chicago, Detroit, and St. Louis for Delta. They had no other East-West hub. Whereas AA, UA, NW, and TW had strong east/west hubs. Cincinnati served it's purpose well for the time they needed it. But after the merger, DTW was a bigger city with a brand new terminal etc...Delta seems to have found it's purpose in CVG serving some connections, but mostly catering to the local O&D. I believe they're making money in CVG now.

Charlotte serves as AA's only mid-Atlantic hub and is perfectly situated to serve as a North South hub in the most populous third of the US.

For what it's worth, it's probably more productive to compare CVG to STL; comparing AA's TW acquisition and subsequent drawdown of STL with DL's Northwest combo and drawdown of CVG.
 
acentauri
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:07 am

jasoncrh wrote:
Not true. Lufthansa maintains an interline agreement with AA and receives lots of feed traffic from AA at CLT. yes, the primary reason it exists is the paid business traffic generated by the nearby BMW factory, but coach is filled up with local Charlotte people going to Europe and beyond as well as feed traffic from AA, mostly Germans going to Florida.
....................

I really doubt AA provides "lots" of feed to LH at CLT for MUC, since there is little financial incentive to do so, even with the limited interline agreement. The flight itself is primarily supported with German business interests/comittments in the Charlotte region. The majority of AA MUC connections flow through PHL.
 
frontierflyer
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:29 am

It would be interesting to see how big CLT gets in the coming years in comparison to DFW .
 
jasoncrh
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:50 am

AA doesn't code on the LH flight. LH codes on the AA flights that feed it. about 1/2 the pax on any flight come from AA flights feeding the LH flight. LH does all the selling, AA doesn't.

acentauri wrote:
jasoncrh wrote:
Not true. Lufthansa maintains an interline agreement with AA and receives lots of feed traffic from AA at CLT. yes, the primary reason it exists is the paid business traffic generated by the nearby BMW factory, but coach is filled up with local Charlotte people going to Europe and beyond as well as feed traffic from AA, mostly Germans going to Florida.
....................

I really doubt AA provides "lots" of feed to LH at CLT for MUC, since there is little financial incentive to do so, even with the limited interline agreement. The flight itself is primarily supported with German business interests/comittments in the Charlotte region. The majority of AA MUC connections flow through PHL.
 
BreezyIAH
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:17 am

CVG has all the Fortune 500 headquarters...only reason why DL keeps the O/D right?
 
BreezyIAH
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:18 am

What about STL? Compared to both...
 
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compensateme
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:07 am

Flighty wrote:
There is no comparison whatsoever.

CLT is one of the largest, most profitable airline hubs on Earth. Yes, ATL is bigger and even more profitable. That is the ONLY reason why people can question CLT.


There’s nothing magical about a southeast gateway; CLT has the least local traffic of any medium/large hub, whereas ATL is on the opposite end of that spectrum. The primary reason CLT has reigned as AA’s “most profitable” hub is the low costs negotiated by US. Of course, those costs will grow next year as AA begins fully integrating its workforce. And at that point, we’ll likely finally see AA fully integrate its network. While CLT will play a prominate role, I’d expect the days off seeing 321 to CMH will be over...
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
flyguy89
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:47 am

enilria wrote:
CVG only had something like 2 mainline non-DL flights at its peak and was something like 80% RJs at DL. I have in my head there were less than 30 mainline DL departures at one point near the peak.

CLT has at times had the lowest % RJs of any USA hub. Haven't looked lately but I'm sure the RJ numbers are still low by comparison. I think that's a key difference.

There were definitely more than 30 mainline DL departures at CVG's peak. At the hub's height there were approximately 160 daily mainline departures, although RJs did indeed make up the bulk of the departures.

Several key details differentiated the CLT and CVG hubs that have brought them to their different fates:
1) Both CVG and CLT are positioned very well geographically; however, unlike CLT, CVG's geographical advantage was not unique to its hub carrier. PIT, CLE, DTW, ORD and MDW all competed in the same arena as CVG when in came to connecting traffic (along with CMH and MKE at times through their HP and YX hublets).

2) CVG through Comair was an early adopter of the RJ, affording an almost 10-year dominance of CVG as a mostly or all-jet hub. While we all despise the RJ nowadays, at the time of the CRJs introduction it commanded a fare premium over its prop counterparts...so for a time this distinction gave the CVG hub a huge financial advantage over the other competing hubs that made it thrive. This advantage was not to last however with the eventual proliferation of the RJ at most other hubs.

3) CLT presented more unique geographic opportunities than CVG. The only other hub comparable to CLT in its region is ATL, thus allowing for a sustained premium on connecting traffic flows unrivaled by most other airline hubs.

4) Throughout the consolidation era, CLT always remained a unique asset in the combined networks whereas CVG lost any meaningful network role with the NW/DL merger. Truthfully the CVG hub was hurting financially even at its zenith prior to the merger and was always going to see some amount of "right-sizing," however the inheritance of the DTW hub abrogated any need for CVG as a significant connecting hub in the combined carrier going forward.
 
DaufuskieGuy
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:55 am

BreezyIAH wrote:
What about STL? Compared to both...


STL very much resembles CVG, both midwest river towns that are not attracting much if any growth.
 
SESGDL
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:51 pm

DaufuskieGuy wrote:
BreezyIAH wrote:
What about STL? Compared to both...


STL very much resembles CVG, both midwest river towns that are not attracting much if any growth.


But TW’s hub at STL was far larger than DL’s CVG hub ever was, which is likely why it was mentioned.

Jeremy
 
flyguy89
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:13 pm

DaufuskieGuy wrote:
BreezyIAH wrote:
What about STL? Compared to both...


STL very much resembles CVG, both midwest river towns that are not attracting much if any growth.

I can't speak for St. Louis, but Cincinnati has continued to grow consistently both in population and GDP over the decades and was the fastest-growing economy in the Midwest in 2016.

SESGDL wrote:
DaufuskieGuy wrote:
BreezyIAH wrote:
What about STL? Compared to both...


STL very much resembles CVG, both midwest river towns that are not attracting much if any growth.


But TW’s hub at STL was far larger than DL’s CVG hub ever was, which is likely why it was mentioned.

Jeremy

Looks like STL peaked at 537 daily flights and CVG at 597. Both were comparable size-wise.
 
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CitizenJustin
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:52 pm

frontierflyer wrote:
It would be interesting to see how big CLT gets in the coming years in comparison to DFW .


DFW is located in the 4th largest metro area in the U.S. with a population of 7.2 million. It’s also the second fastest growing metro after Houston., adding well over 100,000 people per year. Charlotte is much, much smaller at 2.4 million, so I don’t think it will ever truly be on the level of DFW and certainly not internationally.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:10 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
DaufuskieGuy wrote:
BreezyIAH wrote:
What about STL? Compared to both...


STL very much resembles CVG, both midwest river towns that are not attracting much if any growth.

I can't speak for St. Louis, but Cincinnati has continued to grow consistently both in population and GDP over the decades and was the fastest-growing economy in the Midwest in 2016.


Umm...except population growth (using census estimate) doesn't really agree with that. Both Columbus (OH) and Indy grew at a faster rate than Cincy. Cincy did grew more than STL, though.
 
flyguy89
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:20 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
DaufuskieGuy wrote:

STL very much resembles CVG, both midwest river towns that are not attracting much if any growth.

I can't speak for St. Louis, but Cincinnati has continued to grow consistently both in population and GDP over the decades and was the fastest-growing economy in the Midwest in 2016.


Umm...except population growth (using census estimate) doesn't really agree with that. Both Columbus (OH) and Indy grew at a faster rate than Cincy. Cincy did grew more than STL, though.

Doesn't agree with what? All I said was that the metro area has grown consistently (fact) and that in 2016 it was the fastest growing economy in the Midwest according to the fed (fact).
 
SESGDL
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:22 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
DaufuskieGuy wrote:
BreezyIAH wrote:
What about STL? Compared to both...


STL very much resembles CVG, both midwest river towns that are not attracting much if any growth.

I can't speak for St. Louis, but Cincinnati has continued to grow consistently both in population and GDP over the decades and was the fastest-growing economy in the Midwest in 2016.

SESGDL wrote:
DaufuskieGuy wrote:

STL very much resembles CVG, both midwest river towns that are not attracting much if any growth.


But TW’s hub at STL was far larger than DL’s CVG hub ever was, which is likely why it was mentioned.

Jeremy

Looks like STL peaked at 537 daily flights and CVG at 597. Both were comparable size-wise.


Not really. STL was always majority mainline, with multiple widebodies across the country and to Europe and Hawaii. CVG probably had half the daily seats that STL had at its peak.

Jeremy
 
flyguy89
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:24 pm

SESGDL wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
DaufuskieGuy wrote:

STL very much resembles CVG, both midwest river towns that are not attracting much if any growth.

I can't speak for St. Louis, but Cincinnati has continued to grow consistently both in population and GDP over the decades and was the fastest-growing economy in the Midwest in 2016.

SESGDL wrote:

But TW’s hub at STL was far larger than DL’s CVG hub ever was, which is likely why it was mentioned.

Jeremy

Looks like STL peaked at 537 daily flights and CVG at 597. Both were comparable size-wise.


Not really. STL was always majority mainline, with multiple widebodies across the country and to Europe and Hawaii. CVG probably had half the daily seats that STL had at its peak.

Jeremy

Not exactly. While CVG was certainly heavy on the RJ side, STL peaked at 30 million pax while CVG peaked at about 23 million, so they were much more similar in size than you're remembering.
 
AAvgeek744
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:23 pm

DaufuskieGuy wrote:
BreezyIAH wrote:
What about STL? Compared to both...


STL very much resembles CVG, both midwest river towns that are not attracting much if any growth.


WN has shown STL quite a bit of love over the last few years, so it's getting some growth.
 
glfblz59
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:54 pm

Well, DL shut down CVG several years ago, prior to BK13. Now, they've found faith in the S. midwest that will carry them to more
good things? Probably NOT. Reading "service" reply's are not very good.
Of, course, NOT as bad at UA. They are at the bottom of the heap as far as "BAD" service. CXL a ladies res to accom an
upgrade? REALLY?
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: AA CLT hub today vs DL CVG hub at the peak?

Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:16 am

flyguy89 wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
I can't speak for St. Louis, but Cincinnati has continued to grow consistently both in population and GDP over the decades and was the fastest-growing economy in the Midwest in 2016.


Umm...except population growth (using census estimate) doesn't really agree with that. Both Columbus (OH) and Indy grew at a faster rate than Cincy. Cincy did grew more than STL, though.

Doesn't agree with what? All I said was that the metro area has grown consistently (fact) and that in 2016 it was the fastest growing economy in the Midwest according to the fed (fact).


I should have checked the fact before the post. Not bad for Cincy at all. Population growth is still not quite there, though (It is better than the like of Detroit or STL or Chicago, but is still outpaced by Indy, CMH, or MCI. Of course, the "growth" in Midwest overall is a huge joke compare to the South).

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