Since so much negativity surrounds DTW and here we finally have our first real addition of new carrier International service, I am paying close attention to how this performs. Like a few others, my hopes are this route will see success, and lead into other carriers such as DY/EI/EK/QR launching their own new operations from/to DTW.

Sales really haven't been available that long, I've seen no advertising, and already I find almost no intro fares. Once one gets into June, the fares are up there all summer. In fact, as I was searching for a family that wants to travel DTW-LON, I had recommended Wow, presuming it would be very cheap for them. Currently for their end of July 7 day Stansted request, its only $400 less than AA, and $500 less than DL which both use LHR at $1300 with Wow being $899 RT.

To me this is already looking like success, especially considering the less than ideal departure time from DTW. I wonder if anyone has better info than I can find with this public method.

Good for them. I wonder how long before WOW, Icelandair and Norwegian start flying to SAN, one of the most underserved major cities in the US, it doesn't have to be daily with a wide-body, 3 flights a week would be a good start or a narrow-body via Canada with 5th freedom rights.

Great news perhaps this service will bring back the flyers that are lost to other airports and attract other low coast international airlines to fly here

Your "find" gives ZERO indication of how this route is or will be doing. WOW at 899? How much for a bag? How much for seats for them to sit together?

stlgph wrote:

Your "find" gives ZERO indication of how this route is or will be doing. WOW at 899? How much for a bag? How much for seats for them to sit together?

Fares can predict a route's performance somewhat, but they are in no way an official indicator.

Heck the service hasn't even started yet. Way too early to tell how WW is doing at DTW.

Let's just wait until the airport or airline releases numbers or just a statement once the route is in service and maturing.

The route doesn't even start until April. I'm as excited as everyone else is about this service, but how about we wait until at least the first neon pink plane touches down at DTW before we start assessing route performance.

stlgph wrote:

Your "find" gives ZERO indication of how this route is or will be doing. WOW at 899? How much for a bag? How much for seats for them to sit together?

Surprisingly, when I priced it out, you can get a RT DTW-STN in July for under $900 including 1 checked bag and a seat assignment. Of course, you are connecting and spending more time travelling to get it. As you point ut, there is no correllation between their current pricing how the route is doing. It could be an everyday price, an introductory price, or it could be a bottom feeder price to fill seats. I noticed that on most days in July their lowest price was around $500 each way, which did not include a bag or seat. So I would say WOW thinks there is untapped demand that allows them to match DLs pricing.

The intro fares were $149, hence my basis for this albeit early prediction

Thanks for the education on intro fares lol

I'm well aware of how airline pricing goes, I'm in my 22nd year, and I stated above that all SUMMER looks to be very well sold already, not May, the kids are still in school. Anyway, I am not here to argue this. I pointed out , based on my experience, what I see, and that's all indications are this is off to a good start.

toltommy wrote:

stlgph wrote:

Your "find" gives ZERO indication of how this route is or will be doing. WOW at 899? How much for a bag? How much for seats for them to sit together?

Surprisingly, when I priced it out, you can get a RT DTW-STN in July for under $900 including 1 checked bag and a seat assignment. Of course, you are connecting and spending more time travelling to get it. As you point ut, there is no correllation between their current pricing how the route is doing. It could be an everyday price, an introductory price, or it could be a bottom feeder price to fill seats. I noticed that on most days in July their lowest price was around $500 each way, which did not include a bag or seat. So I would say WOW thinks there is untapped demand that allows them to match DLs pricing.

WW is not matching Delta pricing it's just that all the lower fare classes are sold out and travelers are kinf of left with what's available because the flights are selling out quickly.

klm617 wrote:

WW is not matching Delta pricing it's just that all the lower fare classes are sold out and travelers are kinf of left with what's available because the flights are selling out quickly.

Seriously? We all know you have an alternate reality, but you don't think that if Wow had a chance to increase their yields from DTW by raising fares to DL levels that they wouldn't?

toltommy wrote:

klm617 wrote:

WW is not matching Delta pricing it's just that all the lower fare classes are sold out and travelers are kinf of left with what's available because the flights are selling out quickly.

Seriously? We all know you have an alternate reality, but you don't think that if Wow had a chance to increase their yields from DTW by raising fares to DL levels that they wouldn't?

Which would also be an indication that they are doing very well with advance bookings if they already feel they can raise prices with confidence as they try to get their foot in the door. Either way seems like a very positive start.

Dear Cheerleaders,

You continue to miss the point and the obvious. Something along the lines of Detroit to London .... and the price, doesn't matter. For all you know, the flights from Iceland INTO London are filled with kids from Cleveland. Or Boston. Or Allentown. Or wherever.

What matters *IS* Detroit to Keflavik. Everything else after that is heresay because of how Wow pricing and revenue works.
Right now, those prices are $229 or LOWER across the board one way into KEF. So if you're "basing" success on these so called-"higher" fares.....man alive, watch your bubbles!

stlgph wrote:

Dear Cheerleaders,

You continue to miss the point and the obvious. Something along the lines of Detroit to London .... and the price, doesn't matter. For all you know, the flights from Iceland INTO London are filled with kids from Cleveland. Or Boston. Or Allentown. Or wherever.

What matters *IS* Detroit to Keflavik. Everything else after that is heresay because of how Wow pricing and revenue works.
Right now, those prices are $229 or LOWER across the board one way into KEF. So if you're "basing" success on these so called-"higher" fares.....man alive, watch your bubbles!

But that's not the case because fares from the other originating airports are lower. So it's the DTW-KEF flight that is driving the prices up.

I don't know if Wow is using AirRM or not to manage their fares, but there's no trigger in Radixx (their res system) to monitor everyone else's fares. its all manual for changes and updates without using a revenue management tool.

so, Wowair may not match Delta or even be paying attention to them. And they are probably getting $800ish for those tickets because they can, not necessarily because the flight is 1/2 full. And don't forget on connections, you have 2 flights that will set your selling level for connections. So one flight may be empty, but the other one may be almost full - which then drives that $800 ticket to be $1000, or even $600.
A + B = C requires that seat be open on flight A and B. If A + D, then it will = Price E, not C.

My families WOW experience was delightful last summer So much so that I booked British Airways for this Summer's trip.

2017 it was BOS-KEF (3 night "free" layover...ha, ha, ha Iceland ain't Freeland!!!)-Dublin & Cork-KEF-BOS. We "bought" 2 checked bags (young children). Thankfully we booked prior to them charging for seat assignments. Realistically pricing out WOW...your charged for everything ancillary on a per leg basis. Indeed the bag charge was less from KEF-DUB, but it still was something like $70 for 2 pieces. I didn't find connecting in KEF loathsome, perhaps it was the Ambien, yet my Wife proclaims "NEVER AGAIN"!!!! It can only be worse this year w/ more flights to KEF.

The point is, I booked British Airways for a trip from Boston to London & Edinburgh & back home from London. The price came to $2,400 & everybody gets a bag, everybody gets a meal, and no connection. The drawback...no seat assignments. However, since my kids are young the BA "fine print" stipulates that a child traveling with an adult without seating assignments, will be seated next to the adult, period!

I'd love to see WOW succeed, I found them pleasant-punctual-proffesional. However, my 2018 Summer booking cost on WOW via KEF would've been greater than BA once the checked bag was factored in & if seats were selected. I suspect the "air" will come out of the ballon for WOW if BA & likes price so competitively close...and Iceland "free" will ultimately be a diminishing return draw, & simply a hectic connection point @ an overstuffed airport that can't handle the fantastical growth it has encountered.

klm617 wrote:

stlgph wrote:

Dear Cheerleaders,

You continue to miss the point and the obvious. Something along the lines of Detroit to London .... and the price, doesn't matter. For all you know, the flights from Iceland INTO London are filled with kids from Cleveland. Or Boston. Or Allentown. Or wherever.

What matters *IS* Detroit to Keflavik. Everything else after that is heresay because of how Wow pricing and revenue works.
Right now, those prices are $229 or LOWER across the board one way into KEF. So if you're "basing" success on these so called-"higher" fares.....man alive, watch your bubbles!

But that's not the case because fares from the other originating airports are lower. So it's the DTW-KEF flight that is driving the prices up.

Another bubble burst: that doesn't mean anything.

The original poster knows his/her stuff hence starting a thread about it. He has done his research and has been in the business 22 years give him/her some respect and credit.

Runway28L wrote:

stlgph wrote:

Your "find" gives ZERO indication of how this route is or will be doing. WOW at 899? How much for a bag? How much for seats for them to sit together?

Fares can predict a route's performance somewhat, but they are in no way an official indicator.

Heck the service hasn't even started yet. Way too early to tell how WW is doing at DTW.

Let's just wait until the airport or airline releases numbers or just a statement once the route is in service and maturing.

Amen to this. I'd love to see the evidence that substantiates this claim.

Why was my earlier post reflected this deleted without any explanation? Can a mod please weigh in?

The worst airline ever. I will never fly them again or rather attempt to fly since I bailed before they chance to screw me over. Fascinating thing this is I kept getting text messages as if I was on the flight. You see I made other reservations once they screwed me over with my XXL seat I bought which was an aisle near the front which they changed to a center in the back due to an aircraft change they told me. Final text from them was apologizing that they couldn't get me to my original destination of Frankfurt but they would fly me from Reykjavik after two nights unplanned to Berlin and then bus me to Frankfurt. WOW indeed.

This thread is kind of silly on all sides:

1) No one should be surprised to see that WW could be successful on this route, particularly from May-September. Especially in July, anyone can fill a plane to/from Europe during peak summer travel season, especially at LCC fares.

2) Random internet fare searches are not a good way to judge route profitability, particularly 6 months in advance.

3) No surprise again that WW would not be pricing at some of the rates quoted, again its peak summer, and they would be leaving money on the table if they prices at "introductory fares" when they can command much better yields that are still below the legacy carriers.

klm617 wrote:

The original poster knows his/her stuff hence starting a thread about it. He has done his research and has been in the business 22 years give him/her some respect and credit.

I recall 2 posters telling me I need to go to an insane asylum for even suggesting that the DOT was going to make Alaska Air divest some of their partnerships to get approval for the Virgin America merger - and I've been in the business for 20 this year (and was correct - one of my projects involving ONE of the partners was suddenly halted, and neither AS or this other airline could comment, putting 2 + 2 together meant the partnership was coming to an end). Still haven't heard an apology from either. Respect / credit for being in the business doesn't automatically warrant it here, this *is* a.net!!

Wake me up if they upgauged the capacity before the route started. Otherwise, this is purely hearsay and wishful thinking which seems common of many of the a.netters in my neck of the woods.

klm617 wrote:

The original poster knows his/her stuff hence starting a thread about it. He has done his research and has been in the business 22 years give him/her some respect and credit.

The OP stated that he was 22yo not being in the business for 22 years!

Midwestindy wrote:

NWADTWE16 wrote:

Since so much negativity surrounds DTW and here we finally have our first real addition of new carrier International service, I am paying close attention to how this performs. Like a few others, my hopes are this route will see success, and lead into other carriers such as DY/EI/EK/QR launching their own new operations from/to DTW.

Sales really haven't been available that long, I've seen no advertising, and already I find almost no intro fares. Once one gets into June, the fares are up there all summer. In fact, as I was searching for a family that wants to travel DTW-LON, I had recommended Wow, presuming it would be very cheap for them. Currently for their end of July 7 day Stansted request, its only $400 less than AA, and $500 less than DL which both use LHR at $1300 with Wow being $899 RT.

To me this is already looking like success, especially considering the less than ideal departure time from DTW. I wonder if anyone has better info than I can find with this public method.

Looking at May 17th, DTW-LTN one-way is at $279
STL-LTN one-way is at $429 (Inaugural flight so prices will be higher)
CVG-LTN one-way is at $219
on May 16th CLE-LTN is $219

I would hesitate to say it is off to a good start, considering soo much is unknown. But in due time we will see

NWADTWE16 wrote:

The intro fares were $149, hence my basis for this albeit early prediction

Intro fares for WW, FI, DY, e.t.c all price that low initially for almost every new station, that's why they are called intro fares, they also use those fares as free publicity. Then after the first few days/weeks of booking the prices go up, regardless of how many seats they sold initially.

Your getting your airports mixed up as WOW fly to STN not LTN.

You can’t compare WoW with BA. WoW is a low cost carrier. It’s like apples and pears.
If you’re a young backpacker saving a couple of hundred bucks might be worth the hassle. If you want a gluten free meal, toys for the kids, Convenient connections and better customer service then fly a legacy. Just comparing Low cost carriers with legacy carriers doesn’t make any sense. Of course the dates are cheaper for a reason.

Cunard wrote:

klm617 wrote:

The original poster knows his/her stuff hence starting a thread about it. He has done his research and has been in the business 22 years give him/her some respect and credit.

The OP stated that he was 22yo not being in the business for 22 years!

Original poster here, and I said 22 YEARS in the Industry, don't change the words from my own mouth mate!

NWADTWE16 wrote:

Cunard wrote:

klm617 wrote:

The original poster knows his/her stuff hence starting a thread about it. He has done his research and has been in the business 22 years give him/her some respect and credit.

The OP stated that he was 22yo not being in the business for 22 years!

Original poster here, and I said 22 YEARS in the Industry, don't change the words from my own mouth mate!

To be fair, you said "I'm in my 22nd year..", which could be interpreted multiple ways.

NWADTWE16 wrote:

Thanks for the education on intro fares lol I'm well aware of how airline pricing goes, I'm in my 22nd year, and I stated above that all SUMMER looks to be very well sold already, not May, the kids are still in school. Anyway, I am not here to argue this. I pointed out , based on my experience, what I see, and that's all indications are this is off to a good start.

alfa164 wrote:

NWADTWE16 wrote:

Cunard wrote:

The OP stated that he was 22yo not being in the business for 22 years!

Original poster here, and I said 22 YEARS in the Industry, don't change the words from my own mouth mate!

To be fair, you said "I'm in my 22nd year..", which could be interpreted multiple ways.

NWADTWE16 wrote:

Thanks for the education on intro fares lol I'm well aware of how airline pricing goes, I'm in my 22nd year, and I stated above that all SUMMER looks to be very well sold already, not May, the kids are still in school. Anyway, I am not here to argue this. I pointed out , based on my experience, what I see, and that's all indications are this is off to a good start.

Funny how me the unintelligent one to many on here understood perfectly what he meant.

Jeez, you’ve been in the industry a year more than I’ve been alive.

Aside of that worthless comment, maybe WW is getting better bookings because more options are being added. I recall WW only serving DUB, LGW/STN, CDG, FRA, and AMS initially. They’ve since built on that adding key connections to places like WAW, TLV, and BCN.

Not here to bust anyone's bubble, but what if since WOW's fares to DTW are high because they're both dissatisfied with advanced bookings and are worried they'll have to make it up when/if they drop DTW. Mind fruit.

flymco753 wrote:

Not here to bust anyone's bubble, but what if since WOW's fares to DTW are high because they're both dissatisfied with advanced bookings and are worried they'll have to make it up when/if they drop DTW. Mind fruit.

Way too soon to make any real judgement and that's now how yield management works.

No shock that July fares are higher its peak season for leisure travel and they don't need to price that much lower than the legacies. They would be leaving money on the table if they priced at intro/promo fares in July. If the competition is charging $1200-$1600 r/t in July peak, WW doesn't need to price at $400 r/t to fill a plane, they can fill it wit $900 r/t fares and then through ala-carte pricing get close to if not exceed legacy pricing for those who don't do their research.

klm617 wrote:

The original poster knows his/her stuff hence starting a thread about it. He has done his research and has been in the business 22 years give him/her some respect and credit.

Respect is earned. It sounds a lot like speculation to me. I tried WW last year, they make Spirit look like Singapore Airlines. I get people want to fly cheaply, but you get what you pay for, which is long delays, indifferent staff before and during the flight. FI is light years ahead of WW, and always will be.

flymco753 wrote:

Not here to bust anyone's bubble, but what if since WOW's fares to DTW are high because they're both dissatisfied with advanced bookings and are worried they'll have to make it up when/if they drop DTW. Mind fruit.

That's not how that works. Fuel costs are neglagible between a plane that has 200 people and a plane that has 199 people. But wow is still paying to move a giant metal tube across the ocean and all the costs that go along with it, so if they have trouble selling tickets they're going to reduce the price to sell more. Nobody raises prices if they aren't selling tickets. It simply makes more money to try to sell a ton of cheap tickets than a few expensive tickets, because the cheap tickets are always going to sell better.

I think you have the right idea, but because WW routes everything through KEF, your analysis could reflect popularity of the KEF-LGW/STN route and not necessarily the popularity of the DTW-KEF part. Therefore, I checked prices of flights going from the U.S. to KEF using the A320/A321 (KEF-DFW, KEF-LAX, KEF-MIA and KEF-SFO use the larger A330 making comparisons meaningless). When I looked, prices were much higher for summer flights on the KEF-CVG, KEF-CLE, KEF-DTW and KEF-STL flights than the KEF-BOS, KEF-BWI, KEF-EWR, KEF-JFK, KEF-ORD, and KEF- PIT flights. Now that tells me that the people at WW HQ must be happy with the load factors on the new flights to the Midwest since they aren't offering the discounts on those routes as they are on their more established flights.

F9Fan wrote:

I think you have the right idea, but because WW routes everything through KEF, your analysis could reflect popularity of the KEF-LGW/STN route and not necessarily the popularity of the DTW-KEF part. Therefore, I checked prices of flights going from the U.S. to KEF using the A320/A321 (KEF-DFW, KEF-LAX, KEF-MIA and KEF-SFO use the larger A330 making comparisons meaningless). When I looked, prices were much higher for summer flights on the KEF-CVG, KEF-CLE, KEF-DTW and KEF-STL flights than the KEF-BOS, KEF-BWI, KEF-EWR, KEF-JFK, KEF-ORD, and KEF- PIT flights. Now that tells me that the people at WW HQ must be happy with the load factors on the new flights to the Midwest since they aren't offering the discounts on those routes as they are on their more established flights.

Your sample does not necessarily support your conclusion. Think about it in a different way: WW may be taking a dual pricing strategy here. For high competition routes, they price low (to compete) but draw on volume. For new and lower competition routes, they may price higher but expect lower volume. At the end of the day, both strategies can be effective or ineffective. But the random price sample you found does not necessarily indicate that one route is more financially successfully than another.

axiom wrote:

F9Fan wrote:

I think you have the right idea, but because WW routes everything through KEF, your analysis could reflect popularity of the KEF-LGW/STN route and not necessarily the popularity of the DTW-KEF part. Therefore, I checked prices of flights going from the U.S. to KEF using the A320/A321 (KEF-DFW, KEF-LAX, KEF-MIA and KEF-SFO use the larger A330 making comparisons meaningless). When I looked, prices were much higher for summer flights on the KEF-CVG, KEF-CLE, KEF-DTW and KEF-STL flights than the KEF-BOS, KEF-BWI, KEF-EWR, KEF-JFK, KEF-ORD, and KEF- PIT flights. Now that tells me that the people at WW HQ must be happy with the load factors on the new flights to the Midwest since they aren't offering the discounts on those routes as they are on their more established flights.

Your sample does not necessarily support your conclusion. Think about it in a different way: WW may be taking a dual pricing strategy here. For high competition routes, they price low (to compete) but draw on volume. For new and lower competition routes, they may price higher but expect lower volume. At the end of the day, both strategies can be effective or ineffective. But the random price sample you found does not necessarily indicate that one route is more financially successfully than another.

Agreed, for KEF-BOS they have direct competition from FI at up to 3x daily and other non stop options to compete with too. That requires lower pricing to be in with a shot of grabbing market share, so initial revenue maybe lower. But two things from there. You can’t tell if the ancillary revenues from all their fees make up any or all of the gap in the lower rates and BOS is a shorter run meaning costs are slightly lower than a DTW or CVG run. Basing an analysis on the ticket price for a LCC is tenuous at best because of all these factors and more.

axiom wrote:

F9Fan wrote:

I think you have the right idea, but because WW routes everything through KEF, your analysis could reflect popularity of the KEF-LGW/STN route and not necessarily the popularity of the DTW-KEF part. Therefore, I checked prices of flights going from the U.S. to KEF using the A320/A321 (KEF-DFW, KEF-LAX, KEF-MIA and KEF-SFO use the larger A330 making comparisons meaningless). When I looked, prices were much higher for summer flights on the KEF-CVG, KEF-CLE, KEF-DTW and KEF-STL flights than the KEF-BOS, KEF-BWI, KEF-EWR, KEF-JFK, KEF-ORD, and KEF- PIT flights. Now that tells me that the people at WW HQ must be happy with the load factors on the new flights to the Midwest since they aren't offering the discounts on those routes as they are on their more established flights.

Your sample does not necessarily support your conclusion. Think about it in a different way: WW may be taking a dual pricing strategy here. For high competition routes, they price low (to compete) but draw on volume. For new and lower competition routes, they may price higher but expect lower volume. At the end of the day, both strategies can be effective or ineffective. But the random price sample you found does not necessarily indicate that one route is more financially successfully than another.

Fair points, but when you compare the KEF-PIT and KEF-CLE routes, the former is significantly cheaper despite their being less direct competition from PIT as there is from CLE.

AAvgeek744 wrote:

klm617 wrote:

The original poster knows his/her stuff hence starting a thread about it. He has done his research and has been in the business 22 years give him/her some respect and credit.

Respect is earned. It sounds a lot like speculation to me. I tried WW last year, they make Spirit look like Singapore Airlines. I get people want to fly cheaply, but you get what you pay for, which is long delays, indifferent staff before and during the flight. FI is light years ahead of WW, and always will be.

I agree and I wish DTW had landed FI but we shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth here. I think for the most part airline staff has become indifferent to the over all customer experience. But I am concerned about their reliability. You may win people with your fares on the first go around but if their experience is bad they are not coming back no matter how cheap it is so reliability is going to be the key that either makes or breaks WW in Detroit.