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KarelXWB
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SaudiGulf CSeries order in limbo

Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:11 pm

SaudiGulf has some unhappy words to share about all the CSeries delays:

“We had a deal with Bombardier to deliver us the airplanes. They were supposed to be delivered in May 2016. We got our license in May 2016, [but] there were no Bombardier airplanes,” Majali said in an interview last month.

“We started negotiating with them on new delivery dates. We didn’t come to an agreement. And now we’re in the middle of negotiations with them again.

“We’re very unhappy with them, because of what happened … The program delays have caused us some big damage and big costs


The airline doesn't know yet if it wants to cancel the order, but they are clearly frustrated about it.

Majali declined to comment when asked about the likelihood of canceling the CSeries order. But he confirmed that, in his opinion, Bombardier has fallen short of its contractual obligations. At the very least, that means SaudiGulf will be seeking compensation or more favorable financial terms as an incentive for proceeding with the purchase.


Article
https://www.forbes.com/sites/martinrive ... ddle-east/
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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3rdGen
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Re: SaudiGulf CSeries order in limbo

Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:37 pm

Hmmm..... interesting. Not like they have a huge back log of orders to fill. Are the Saudi Gulf orders still on the book? If so are there any expected delivery dates set by Bombardier? You would think they would be as eager as a beaver to get deliveries out to new customers. Especially one in the ME region who can showcase the aircraft for them.

On another note what is going on with Saudi Gulf. No word of expansion since their launch last year. A quick look on their website indicates no new aircraft or destinations since the launch last year.
لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
 
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NeBaNi
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Re: SaudiGulf CSeries order in limbo

Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:50 pm

3rdGen wrote:
On another note what is going on with Saudi Gulf. No word of expansion since their launch last year. A quick look on their website indicates no new aircraft or destinations since the launch last year.

Maybe the reason for that is that they were waiting on the CSeries to launch new destinations with super efficient aircraft.
 
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LockheedBBD
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Re: SaudiGulf CSeries order in limbo

Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:52 am

NeBaNi wrote:
3rdGen wrote:
On another note what is going on with Saudi Gulf. No word of expansion since their launch last year. A quick look on their website indicates no new aircraft or destinations since the launch last year.

Maybe the reason for that is that they were waiting on the CSeries to launch new destinations with super efficient aircraft.



That's surprising. Isn't oil dirt cheap in these oil producing countries?
 
keitherson
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Re: SaudiGulf CSeries order in limbo

Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:07 am

CS3 is a great plane for the ME because of the distances combined with the potential for so many unconnected secondary cities in the region with high populations: think cities in Africa, India, and Central Asia.

And they are planning to do long-haul: http://www.aeronef.net/2017/05/saudigul ... liner.html

They are quite ambitious and trying to unseat Saudia.
 
directorguy
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Re: SaudiGulf CSeries order in limbo

Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:29 pm

Not sure if SaudiGulf wants to unseat or even challenge Saudia. SV is the national government owned airline and till today has a monopoly on many domestic routes. Internationally they are the only longhaul Saudi airline and have a massive presence in many key markets.
The second Saudi airline, flynas, has been quite successful in building a nice domestic and regional network and has a few "outside the box" type routes. SaudiGulf being focused on DMM where SV has a smaller hub can focus on flights within a 2-3 hour radius unserved by SV.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: SaudiGulf CSeries order in limbo

Sun Dec 31, 2017 8:11 pm

3rdGen wrote:
If so are there any expected delivery dates set by Bombardier?


The way I read the article, Bombardier and SaudiGulf cannot reach an agreement on new delivery dates and compensation fees.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
Okie
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Re: SaudiGulf CSeries order in limbo

Sun Dec 31, 2017 9:57 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
The way I read the article, Bombardier and SaudiGulf cannot reach an agreement on new delivery dates and compensation fees.


Let me just correctly rephrase that for you. Bombardier cannot reach an agreement on compensation fees to SaudiGulf, for what appears more than three year delinquent, estimated delivery dates.

I think the interesting part will be see how the Airbus-Bombardier relationship plays in the negotiations.

Okie
 
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3rdGen
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Re: SaudiGulf CSeries order in limbo

Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:53 am

How late were Bombardier with deliveries to it's other customers? I do believe the program was delayed overall. But even so there's no press release of a Saudi Gulf C series having begun the production process.

It seems that Saudi Gulf were also delayed in receiving their operating certificate. What was going on in their camp that after one year of operation we don't see any movement from them in getting ready to take delivery of the C series i.e. pilot training, press releases etc. It seems like they have decided that it would be nice to have some more aircraft and have realized that there were some aircraft due to then from Bombardier and are now pushing to get those aircraft and have decided they could play it in such a way that they could recieve some compensation in the bargain.

If I'm not mistaken in actual fact this order was originally placed by Gulf Air and then transferred over to Saudi Gulf when they decided they didn't want the aircraft.

It all seems to be quite a shambles and I don't think that Bombardier are in a position right now to be giving away large compensation packages. Especially since they now have the financial backing of Airbus behind them.
لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
 
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Aesma
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Re: SaudiGulf CSeries order in limbo

Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:15 pm

So am I reading right that they planned to launch an airline with an aircraft that wasn't being delivered to anyone at the time ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
VV
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Re: SaudiGulf CSeries order in limbo

Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:16 pm

This order should be cancelled altogether. There is no point dragging this order any longer.
 
jbs2886
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Re: SaudiGulf CSeries order in limbo

Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:28 pm

VV wrote:
This order should be cancelled altogether. There is no point dragging this order any longer.


Except that they may get the C Series sooner than new A320s or 737s? Or maybe they want that size aircraft?
 
VV
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Re: SaudiGulf CSeries order in limbo

Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:22 pm

my comment was that Bombardier should not drag this "order" any longer.

pay back the pre delivery payment, if there's any and that's it.
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: SaudiGulf CSeries order in limbo

Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:12 am

I agree that a recently launched airline might not be a good match for a recently launched aircraft program. (Even thought Swiss/AirBaltic had a relatively smooth launch).

I smell that SaudiGulf sees an opportunity of making some money on the back of BBD, using the original delivery schedule contracted for Gulf Air. (Event if SaudiGulf itself could not take them so early).

If so, this will drag on...
 
leghorn
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Re: SaudiGulf CSeries order in limbo

Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:37 am

https://twitter.com/AlexInAir/status/949883861219110912

SaudiGulf will wetlease aircraft (as a stopgap) in 2018 if this twitter post is to be believed.
 
Jetsouth
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Re: SaudiGulf CSeries order in limbo

Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:18 pm

The problem with Bombardier is that they make great products, but have serious production issues. This goes for their planes as well as their trains, where there are massive delays in making their streetcars for their North American customers. Bombardier forecast 30-35 CSeries to be delivered in 2017. Actual were 17. Their 2016 deliveries were way behind schedule. Currently they forecast 40 deliveries for 2018. As they always are over optimistic on their delivery schedule, perhaps we can expect 25-30 for 2018. With a backlog of over 300 orders, that will take them more than 10 years to clear their backlog. So it is possible SaudiGulf may have to wait for up to 10 years to have their planes delivered which is ridiculous. SaudiGulf may have a point, unless Bombardier seriously addresses their production issues and increases deliveries, they will lose orders. Even if we accept their optimistic estimate of 40 deliveries a year, that will take over 7 years to clear their backlog.
 
Jamie514
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Re: SaudiGulf CSeries order in limbo

Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:03 pm

Their naive expectations read like a page from the book of AlBaker demands.

With BBD dealing with a deferral on the Delta order until Mobile, is the 2018 production all re-assigned already? Delta seems pretty committed to getting theirs in the time it takes to work around the looney tunes administration; it’d be awesome if another unexpected result of Boeing’s complaint fallout was BBD holds on to another customer by being able to shuffle global deliveries due to the disruption of not being allowed to deliver Delta frames this spring.
 
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Jayafe
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Re: SaudiGulf CSeries order in limbo

Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:04 pm

Jetsouth wrote:
...perhaps we can expect 25-30 for 2018. With a backlog of over 300 orders, that will take them more than 10 years to clear their backlog. So it is possible SaudiGulf may have to wait for up to 10 years to have their planes delivered which is ridiculous...


The fact that you put this specific order as the last one in the backlog to hace an argument does indeed sound ridiculous. We first must know where the negotiations are dating these deliveries, and how thirsty is GulfAir to get cash inbound due to the ongoing cash flow issues in the area.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: SaudiGulf CSeries order in limbo

Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:37 pm

Jamie514 wrote:
Their naive expectations read like a page from the book of AlBaker demands.

With BBD dealing with a deferral on the Delta order until Mobile, is the 2018 production all re-assigned already? Delta seems pretty committed to getting theirs in the time it takes to work around the looney tunes administration; it’d be awesome if another unexpected result of Boeing’s complaint fallout was BBD holds on to another customer by being able to shuffle global deliveries due to the disruption of not being allowed to deliver Delta frames this spring.


While SaudiGulf could take some DL slots, it means they'll end up with an aircraft build to a different airline specification. I imagine SaudiGulf wants their own specification, but lead time of new aircraft parts can be a high as 12-18 months.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: SaudiGulf CSeries order in limbo

Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:03 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Jamie514 wrote:
Their naive expectations read like a page from the book of AlBaker demands.

With BBD dealing with a deferral on the Delta order until Mobile, is the 2018 production all re-assigned already? Delta seems pretty committed to getting theirs in the time it takes to work around the looney tunes administration; it’d be awesome if another unexpected result of Boeing’s complaint fallout was BBD holds on to another customer by being able to shuffle global deliveries due to the disruption of not being allowed to deliver Delta frames this spring.


While SaudiGulf could take some DL slots, it means they'll end up with an aircraft build to a different airline specification. I imagine SaudiGulf wants their own specification, but lead time of new aircraft parts can be a high as 12-18 months.


Is that really even an issue currently? With how slow everything has been going with the CSeries I really don't think it is.
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: SaudiGulf CSeries order in limbo

Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:04 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
While SaudiGulf could take some DL slots, it means they'll end up with an aircraft build to a different airline specification. I imagine SaudiGulf wants their own specification, but lead time of new aircraft parts can be a high as 12-18 months.


Not denying what you're saying, but for the CSeries specifically, I read somewhere that BBD requires airlines 4 months lead time to specify if a CS100 or a CS300 is to be delivered. (That info needs to be confirmed)

Still, airline related interior might require more lead time.
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: SaudiGulf CSeries order in limbo

Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:28 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
...but lead time of new aircraft parts can be a high as 12-18 months.

Is that really even an issue currently? With how slow everything has been going...

Good you bring that out.

As we all know, the current Mirabel FAL (partially completed) doesn't allow more than 40 aircrafts per year. (The current set up also creates lots of inefficient aircraft movings)

But that's not even what's restricting (ie critical path) output right now.

PW is currently producing a very limited number of "upgraded" GTF engines, and about every customers are now delaying deliveries to ensure they are equipped with "upgraded" GTF.

----------------------------------------------------------

Not sure if future production ramp up spending will go into completing the Mirabel FAL first, or to create the Mobile FAL (for which $300M is allocated)

There might be other issues thought, suppliers or not; if somebody has specific details, please let us know.

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