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planemanofnz
Posts: 4381
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:46 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:19 am

Motorhussy wrote:
Having flown on CX A350’s a few times recently, I too hope that NZ goes for them to replace the 77E & 77W with the A359 and A35J, plus the A359ULR for opening new routes.

They’re a really good passenger experience plus the economics clearly stack up.

Not to mention how good they look in the NZ livery! :cheerful:

Image

Image

See: https://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?/f ... -a350-900/.

Cheers,

C.
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 7535
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:28 am

a7ala wrote:
MillwallSean wrote:
I believe that SQ will continue to WEL, more because they prefer to honour the extremelly preferential deal they struck with Wellington regional council. While the subsidy per passenger isn't that big, its reputedly a 10 year deal. But the subsidy is just one part of the agreement, there is also other marketing (for example the route announcement party which came in at (if one is to believe media) 50K paid by WELlington marketing arm) and more importantly for SQ, being the preferred carrier to Asia and Europe for quite a few of the entity's found in and around WEL.

As far as I understood it, so far the tickets that have been selling out of WEL have been discount economy/economy and often travelers that continues onwards from SIN to Europe. Revenue has thus not been close to meeting projections. SQ is a numbers run operation where audits identify poor performers, who then gets specific support (where new KPIs/resources etc are introduced). If change is not seen, then the route gets discontinued. In this case WEL got altered. That doesn't mean WEL is out of the woods, they need to perform because the same audit processes will continue.
However, despite revenue not meeting projections, apparently total passenger numbers (see Motorhussys post above) to SIN has.
Unfortunately, these numbers do not see as many passengers to SIN itself (those numbers were below expectations and that drives down the destinations profitability) but instead a large number of passengers transferring in SIN.

I think Aerorobnz has got it right when he stated that this is SQ giving it the last shot. Either it works or it doesnt and if it doesnt they can cut the MEL-WEL without risking any losses in the more important MEL market.


The reality is that it is difficult to make tags work, with what should be local traffic (wlg-sin) having to transit which of course will reduce the attractiveness for local and connecting markets. Hopefuly they will stick out the less than optimal situation until there is a way they can do it non-stop in the future.

Also one of the things that hasn't been raised its how inefficient the flight via cbr actually was. Because of the extended ground time in wlg they were having to fly the route with 4 crews (sin-cbr, cbr-wlg, wlg-cbr, and cbr-sin) with days in between. The new schedule will reduce their crew costs significantly with only 1 crew for the tasman and consecutive days. Also Mel airport is significantly cheaper for an airline to transit through than cbr.

All good signs to sqs longevity in the wlg market.




On crew it’s probably another reason EK are exiting the Tasman bar CHC-SYD for now, long layovers. D7 this winter will leave AKL 2 hrs earlier than last at 1730, I’d imagine the previous 3.20 ground time would have meant crew over nighting, this year just 1.20 ground time, CI have shortened theirs as well to 1.5 hrs.

I wonder why SQ didn’t depart SIN later on the CBR-WLG flight to allow a same day CBR-WLG-CBR return? Seems a bit odd to me on such a short flight.
 
planemanofnz
Posts: 4381
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:30 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
On crew it’s probably another reason EK are exiting the Tasman

AFAIK, all fifth-freedom carriers do same-day return crew rotations on the Tasman (like CI, and SQ included), except EK.

It would be cheaper for EK to make crews do Australia - New Zealand return in a day, and not over-night in AKL or CHC.

Cheers,

C.
 
planemanofnz
Posts: 4381
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:46 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:16 am

NZ is filming its newest safety video in Antarctica, which is causing backlash.

It is scheduled to be released in full, in March, but a teaser was released today.

See: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/artic ... d=11983505.

Should NZ have featured one of its own destinations, rather than Antarctica?

Cheers,

C.
 
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ernestxwb
Posts: 55
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:31 am

planemanofnz wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
On crew it’s probably another reason EK are exiting the Tasman

AFAIK, all fifth-freedom carriers do same-day return crew rotations on the Tasman (like CI, and SQ included), except EK.

It would be cheaper for EK to make crews do Australia - New Zealand return in a day, and not over-night in AKL or CHC.

Cheers,

C.

LATAM being the exception.
 
planemanofnz
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:36 am

ernestxwb wrote:
LATAM being the exception.

Do LA crews over-night in SYD? Where do they stay in SYD? I always thought that they just flew AKL - SYD - AKL in one day.

Cheers,

C.
 
planemanofnz
Posts: 4381
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:00 am

MU has upgraded its daily 332 service with the 77W, since last week (16/01) - this will run for about two months.

Image

See: https://www.airliners.net/photo/China-Ea ... Ixjg%3D%3D

It is great to see AKL being treated by MU in the same league as SYD / MEL, who also get the 77W seasonally.

Cheers,

C.
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 7535
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:33 am

planemanofnz wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
On crew it’s probably another reason EK are exiting the Tasman

AFAIK, all fifth-freedom carriers do same-day return crew rotations on the Tasman (like CI, and SQ included), except EK.

It would be cheaper for EK to make crews do Australia - New Zealand return in a day, and not over-night in AKL or CHC.

Cheers,

C.


I didn’t think SQ did with a 3hr ground time.

LATAM with a 1.45 turn in SYD change crew? They used to with 4 ish hrs in SYD a few years back but surely not now.

planemanofnz wrote:
MU has upgraded its daily 332 service with the 77W, since last week (16/01) - this will run for about two months.

Image

See: https://www.airliners.net/photo/China-Ea ... Ixjg%3D%3D

It is great to see AKL being treated by MU in the same league as SYD / MEL, who also get the 77W seasonally.

Cheers,

C.


While I’m not exactly sure how long the 77W is for I thought it was more like 2 weeks than 2 months? This happened last year for CNY while the previous year they increased A332 ops.
 
planemanofnz
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:44 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
While I’m not exactly sure how long the 77W is for I thought it was more like 2 weeks than 2 months? This happened last year for CNY while the previous year they increased A332 ops.

It is scheduled from 16 January to 28 February - more than 6 weeks.

Cheers,

C.
 
axio
Posts: 271
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:05 am

planemanofnz wrote:
NZ is filming its newest safety video in Antarctica, which is causing backlash.

It is scheduled to be released in full, in March, but a teaser was released today.

See: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/artic ... d=11983505.

Should NZ have featured one of its own destinations, rather than Antarctica?

Cheers,

C.


I would have thought Antarctica would be off-limits for NZ; although after Rico maybe nothing is off limits.
Just seems an unnecessary choice to me - surely there are plenty of other excellent settings for safety vids.
Time for a new viewing deck at AKL!
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:22 am

planemanofnz wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
While I’m not exactly sure how long the 77W is for I thought it was more like 2 weeks than 2 months? This happened last year for CNY while the previous year they increased A332 ops.

It is scheduled from 16 January to 28 February - more than 6 weeks.

Cheers,

C.


Yes sorry I just checked you are correct.
axio wrote:
planemanofnz wrote:
NZ is filming its newest safety video in Antarctica, which is causing backlash.

It is scheduled to be released in full, in March, but a teaser was released today.

See: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/artic ... d=11983505.

Should NZ have featured one of its own destinations, rather than Antarctica?

Cheers,

C.


I would have thought Antarctica would be off-limits for NZ; although after Rico maybe nothing is off limits.
Just seems an unnecessary choice to me - surely there are plenty of other excellent settings for safety vids.


I think NZ have got this one wrong. Agree there has to be other good settings to make a safety video. They should of atleast asked the families of Erubus first.
 
planemanofnz
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:55 am

axio wrote:
I would have thought Antarctica would be off-limits for NZ.

Perhaps NZ knows something that we don't - such as the resumption of scenic flights there, as QF planes do?

axio wrote:
Just seems an unnecessary choice to me - surely there are plenty of other excellent settings for safety vids.

:checkmark:

They have done the Cook Islands, as well as the Bay of Islands before - how about the likes of AKL or ZQN?

Cheers,

C.
 
a7ala
Posts: 359
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:27 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:37 am

planemanofnz wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
On crew it’s probably another reason EK are exiting the Tasman

AFAIK, all fifth-freedom carriers do same-day return crew rotations on the Tasman (like CI, and SQ included), except EK.


When SQ first started the service they had 5 hours on the ground in WLG - clearly requiring two crews on the Tasman for the first year of operation. In NW17 it looks like they adjusted the schediule to reduce ground time at WLG to just over 3 hours (giving just over 10 hours CBR-WLG-CBR time). This may well have allowed them to use the same crew (including prep time) but would be tight if there are any issues...

The consequence of this change was a 0:55 later dep in SIN (23:55) and a 1:05 earlier arrival in SIN (04:35) both adjustments in the wrong direction for local traffic. I presume the main reason they wanted to run the service like this was to have an overnight in both directions. The problem you have though is if you are sitting in SIN after a day on sentosa waiting for your WLG dep at 23:55 and you see the CHC leave at 19:50 and AKL leave at 20:50 do you really want to hand around for another 3 hours to wait for the WLG? The new SIN-MEL schedule departing for WLG at 19:45 should address that.
 
a7ala
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:39 am

planemanofnz wrote:
axio wrote:
I would have thought Antarctica would be off-limits for NZ.

Perhaps NZ knows something that we don't - such as the resumption of scenic flights there, as QF planes do?

axio wrote:
Just seems an unnecessary choice to me - surely there are plenty of other excellent settings for safety vids.

:checkmark:

They have done the Cook Islands, as well as the Bay of Islands before - how about the likes of AKL or ZQN?


I quite liked the latest QF one where they featured many parts of Australia in the one video....
 
Motorhussy
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:26 am

Somewhat ironic NZ shooting an inflight safety video in Antarctica.

@planemenofnz that’s one sweet looking ride.
come visit the south pacific
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 13075
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:18 pm

ZK-NBT wrote:

I think NZ have got this one wrong. Agree there has to be other good settings to make a safety video. They should of atleast asked the families of Erubus first.


It was a long time ago, time enough to have gotten over it.
 
planemanofnz
Posts: 4381
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:46 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:56 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
It was a long time ago, time enough to have gotten over it.

Some people will never get over losing a loved one. But aside from any Erebus link, I am confused as to why NZ is featuring Antarctica at all, when it does not fly there. Yes, NZ does have a sustainability partnership with some Antarctica-related bodies (not-for-profit), but why Antarctica for this video, and not, say, ROT, when NZ also has a corporate responsibility scheme for the Maori language, and actually flies to ROT? I guess what I am trying to say is that NZ would get more benefit from marketing somewhere that it flies to, like IUE (being the only airline to fly there, and as a follow-on from the RAR video), ROT (for Maori tourism) or ZQN (for adventure tourism) - and in doing so, it could kill two birds with one stone.

Though, I totally accept that other people might take a different view on this. :)

Cheers,

C.
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 7535
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:04 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:

I think NZ have got this one wrong. Agree there has to be other good settings to make a safety video. They should of atleast asked the families of Erubus first.


It was a long time ago, time enough to have gotten over it.


While it didn’t affect me, I wasn’t born in 1979 I certainly think NZ could have got feed back from families who lost loved ones atleast before going ahead. Only a few years ago 5-6 under Rob Fyfe some of the families were given the opportunity to visit the site.
 
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mariner
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Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:15 pm

ZK-NBT wrote:
I think NZ have got this one wrong. Agree there has to be other good settings to make a safety video. They should of atleast asked the families of Erubus first.


They say they've spoken to the families:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/artic ... d=11983505

Families of Erebus tragedy victims divided over Air NZ safety video made in Antarctica

"The family of David John Bennett, a crew member on the Air New Zealand DC10 flight which flew into the slopes of Mt Erebus on November 28, 1979, is criticising Air New Zealand's new safety video filmed near the location of the crash as "offensive".

However, Air New Zealand says the new safety video will raise awareness of enviromental and scientific issues. It has written to families of the Erebus victims and says it has received "very positive" feedback from them."


I'll wait until I see the video before deciding.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
planemanofnz
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:04 pm

There have been some further developments regarding Samoa's spat with NZ - rumours have been reported that Samoa is "squeezing Air New Zealand to use only an airbus on their service to Samoa."

See: http://sobserver.ws/en/28_11_2018/local ... claims.htm.

This supposed fall-out between NZ and Samoa is fascinating to watch - I cannot think of another destination at which NZ is facing as many political-related public image issues. Where will this story go now?

Cheers,

C.
 
CHI2DFW
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:13 pm

planemanofnz wrote:
Motorhussy wrote:
Having flown on CX A350’s a few times recently, I too hope that NZ goes for them to replace the 77E & 77W with the A359 and A35J, plus the A359ULR for opening new routes.

They’re a really good passenger experience plus the economics clearly stack up.

Not to mention how good they look in the NZ livery! :cheerful:

Image

Image

See: https://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?/f ... -a350-900/.

Cheers,

C.


Who will see this beauty next?
1). EWR
2). ORD
3). DEN
4). LAS
5). SEA
6). YYZ
7). BOS
8). ATL
9). AUS
10). DTW
11). CLT
12). PHX
13). DFW
14). PHX
15). PHL
16). None of the above:
 
zkncj
Posts: 3910
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:15 pm

aerorobnz wrote:
This is the A350 hard sell to Air NZ. Airbus is very keen to get the order.You can probably expect an announcement if they are successful pretty quickly. In case you hadn't noticed, the media reports for NZ have not been the positive kind of late, something like a new order and a new route will deflect the heat somewhat.


Order at the Singapore airshow an few days before the visit to AKL? Followed by an media demo flight around Auckland? And the Launch of AKL-EWR....
 
zkncj
Posts: 3910
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:18 pm

planemanofnz wrote:
There have been some further developments regarding Samoa's spat with NZ - rumours have been reported that Samoa is "squeezing Air New Zealand to use only an airbus on their service to Samoa."

See: http://sobserver.ws/en/28_11_2018/local ... claims.htm.

This supposed fall-out between NZ and Samoa is fascinating to watch - I cannot think of another destination at which NZ is facing as many political-related public image issues. Where will this story go now?

Cheers,

C.


In the end it will probably just end up with NZ removing APW temporally to teach 'them an lesson', and they will soon learn they will lose out with an single 738 trying to cover APW-AKL and APW-SYD. Then Samoa Airways will be gone and NZ will return.

Just look at what happened with VLI, when they refused to make safety enhancements to the airport.
 
planemanofnz
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:21 pm

AKL will get a new hotel this week, with "Naumi Auckland Airport" to launch on Thursday (1 February).

I wonder if airlines will move crew lay-overs here? AFAIK, PR's crews now stay in the vicinity of AKL.

See: https://www.we-heart.com/2018/01/26/nau ... ort-hotel/.

Cheers,

C.
 
zkncj
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Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:28 pm

planemanofnz wrote:
AKL will get a new hotel this week, with "Naumi Auckland Airport" to launch on Thursday (1 February).

I wonder if airlines will move crew lay-overs here? AFAIK, PR's crews now stay in the vicinity of AKL.

See: https://www.we-heart.com/2018/01/26/nau ... ort-hotel/.

Cheers,

C.


Isn't this just the "Hotel Grand Chancellor Auckland Airport" being re-branded and upgraded? While its an new name, that hotel has been there for around 20-30 years.
 
nz2
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:32 am

planemanofnz wrote:
Motorhussy wrote:
Having flown on CX A350’s a few times recently, I too hope that NZ goes for them to replace the 77E & 77W with the A359 and A35J, plus the A359ULR for opening new routes.

They’re a really good passenger experience plus the economics clearly stack up.


Why do posters here hope for Airbus as replacement when NZ has invested so much in Boeing, both 777 and 787? It is poor economics to change equipment when the deliverables are much of a muchness. "Cool cockpit windows" is not a valid reason.... Nothing wrong with the Boeing product.
 
Megatop747-412
Posts: 309
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2000 1:59 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:37 am

planemanofnz wrote:
DavidJ08 wrote:
... 2-2-2 regional business product

Speaking of which - is it true that CHC does not get this regional product, and instead gets the long-haul 77W-styled seats?

Is CHC high yielding enough to warrant SQ using the 1-2-1 Business Class product? What will it get in the future - the 787?

Cheers,

C.


@planemanofnz - yes CHC indeed gets SQ’s “77E” with the long haul, lie-flat 1-2-1 business class seats. I think that has more to do with the aircraft type’s technical capabilities rather than the yield. Whilst technically speaking all of SQ’s 772s are 77E, the regional birds have derated engines, and therefore, are not certified as “77E” in their Singapore CAAS Aircraft registrer. They typically operate medium haul routes of up to 8 hours. CHC, being almost 10 hours flight from SIN, is out of the 8-hour regional birds capabilities, hence it gets the 9V-SVx series long haul 77E in SQ’s fleet - the same aircraft that places like IST (and previously, AMS, CPH, FCO, JNB/CPT, etc) gets.

I remember a number of years ago SQ recertified 2 of their “regional” 772s to be “77E”s, with a higher MTOW, and operated on SIN-CHC and SIN-AKL (SQ281/282 at the time), there were reports that the cabin crew reported that they are a “nightmare” to work in due to a lack of proper cabin crew rest areas/bunks on those 772, making SIN-NZ routes the longest in SQ’s network operated by an aircraft without proper crew rest areas...
 
tealnz
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:50 am

nz2 wrote:
Why do posters here hope for Airbus as replacement when NZ has invested so much in Boeing, both 777 and 787? It is poor economics to change equipment when the deliverables are much of a muchness. "Cool cockpit windows" is not a valid reason.... Nothing wrong with the Boeing product.


Going by their series of A320 purchases it looks as if NZ are neutral as between Boeing and Airbus – they will go for whichever airframes offer the best mix of capability and economics. Which is as it should be.

NZ have clearly been happy with the current 787 fleet (apart from delivery delays and now engine troubles). They have worked well on Asian and Australian routes. But management have been clear from the outset that the 787s are short on payload/range for North America and potentially for Brazil. Presumably this is because NZ's business model (unlike QF's) demands both high-density passenger layouts (they are a leisure rather than business airline) and big cargo loads.

The upshot is that NZ didn't see the 789 as an option for the 77E replacement. We'll see which way they go. But if it's a choice between a 280t A359 and a 350t B778 I suspect I know which way they'll go...
 
aerokiwi
Posts: 2790
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2000 1:17 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:16 am

nz2 wrote:
planemanofnz wrote:
Motorhussy wrote:
Having flown on CX A350’s a few times recently, I too hope that NZ goes for them to replace the 77E & 77W with the A359 and A35J, plus the A359ULR for opening new routes.

They’re a really good passenger experience plus the economics clearly stack up.


Why do posters here hope for Airbus as replacement when NZ has invested so much in Boeing, both 777 and 787? It is poor economics to change equipment when the deliverables are much of a muchness. "Cool cockpit windows" is not a valid reason.... Nothing wrong with the Boeing product.


Yeah it's an odd one - notwithstanding my personal gripe with those hideous spaceshuttle-esque cockpit windows lamely painted over.

It would introduce a third type into NZ longhaul just when they've finally rationalised down to two. And they'll need capacity eventually which the 35J just can't match. I'd rather a 78J/779 replacement for the 772 and eventually the 77W.

I lay no claim to which way NZ is leaning. Is there any confirmation they're looking at an order soon?
 
PA515
Posts: 1609
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:17 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:18 am

aerokiwi wrote:
I lay no claim to which way NZ is leaning. Is there any confirmation they're looking at an order soon?

An order in 2018 seems likely. This was Rob McDonald at the 01 June 2017 Investor Day Presentation.
..... What you will see us turning our mind to and will -- it's an activity we'll start later on this calendar year, will be what we call an RFI, a request for information, around wide-bodies, and that will be looking at effectively the replacement for the 777-200ER, which will probably start from around 2022. So that will be a lot of work around what's a good replacement, but also what's out there of aircraft that could also do stuff we have growth ambitions around our network and fleet.

So that process takes a little while, but eventually I expect sometime next year would get to a point where we'll end up looking at an RFP, or request for proposal, which is effectively commercial offers from Airbus and Boeing. And the great thing is both of them have really good offerings.

Boeing with an offering soon to come and Airbus maturing on their 350. So I think it's a really good time to be looking at that as we think about the 777-200 fleet later. And equally, and maybe before that, a little bit of growth.

So from our perspective, that will sort of be the plan, but largely, in the meantime, we can look at units for early part of next decade, which might add to the fleet we have now if we want to grow as well, and we can do that with operating leases. We do have an option on an operating lease essentially at the same terms as a unit in 2019 for a year later as well. So we're in pretty good shape to just keep the path we want to keep going.


The A350-900 280t version is available from 2020, so waiting until 2022 should not be necessary as Airbus could find some 2020 and 2021 delivery slots.

PA515
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 7535
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:25 am

nz2 wrote:
planemanofnz wrote:
Motorhussy wrote:
Having flown on CX A350’s a few times recently, I too hope that NZ goes for them to replace the 77E & 77W with the A359 and A35J, plus the A359ULR for opening new routes.

They’re a really good passenger experience plus the economics clearly stack up.


Why do posters here hope for Airbus as replacement when NZ has invested so much in Boeing, both 777 and 787? It is poor economics to change equipment when the deliverables are much of a muchness. "Cool cockpit windows" is not a valid reason.... Nothing wrong with the Boeing product.


Passenger experience. I’ve yet to fly an A350 myself. The A350 would probably replace the 777 fleet 359>772, 35K>77W over 5 years or so.

I agree I’m not convinced they will go for the A359 although Boeing is said to be more expensive, the tools and infrastructure are there for the 777.

tealnz wrote:
nz2 wrote:
Why do posters here hope for Airbus as replacement when NZ has invested so much in Boeing, both 777 and 787? It is poor economics to change equipment when the deliverables are much of a muchness. "Cool cockpit windows" is not a valid reason.... Nothing wrong with the Boeing product.


Going by their series of A320 purchases it looks as if NZ are neutral as between Boeing and Airbus – they will go for whichever airframes offer the best mix of capability and economics. Which is as it should be.

NZ have clearly been happy with the current 787 fleet (apart from delivery delays and now engine troubles). They have worked well on Asian and Australian routes. But management have been clear from the outset that the 787s are short on payload/range for North America and potentially for Brazil. Presumably this is because NZ's business model (unlike QF's) demands both high-density passenger layouts (they are a leisure rather than business airline) and big cargo loads.

The upshot is that NZ didn't see the 789 as an option for the 77E replacement. We'll see which way they go. But if it's a choice between a 280t A359 and a 350t B778 I suspect I know which way they'll go...


Did NZ actually say the 789 wasn’t in the running? Personally I think a split order of 4 789’s and 6 778’s or similar could be possible for the 772 replacement. Although PA515 has said NZ have options to lease 788’s in 2019/20 I think it is. Personally I think that is to give them time to decide what they order as replacements for the 772.

aerokiwi wrote:
nz2 wrote:
planemanofnz wrote:


Why do posters here hope for Airbus as replacement when NZ has invested so much in Boeing, both 777 and 787? It is poor economics to change equipment when the deliverables are much of a muchness. "Cool cockpit windows" is not a valid reason.... Nothing wrong with the Boeing product.


Yeah it's an odd one - notwithstanding my personal gripe with those hideous spaceshuttle-esque cockpit windows lamely painted over.

It would introduce a third type into NZ longhaul just when they've finally rationalised down to two. And they'll need capacity eventually which the 35J just can't match. I'd rather a 78J/779 replacement for the 772 and eventually the 77W.

I lay no claim to which way NZ is leaning. Is there any confirmation they're looking at an order soon?


The 78J lacks range as is, it could do some Asia routes. The 779 is a big frame. They are fragmenting the market with more p2p flying. It will be interesting.
 
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aerorobnz
Posts: 8353
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:56 am

nz2 wrote:
planemanofnz wrote:
Motorhussy wrote:
Having flown on CX A350’s a few times recently, I too hope that NZ goes for them to replace the 77E & 77W with the A359 and A35J, plus the A359ULR for opening new routes.

They’re a really good passenger experience plus the economics clearly stack up.


Why do posters here hope for Airbus as a replacement when NZ has invested so much in Boeing, both 777 and 787? It is poor economics to change equipment when the deliverables are much of a muchness. "Cool cockpit windows" is not a valid reason.... Nothing wrong with the Boeing product.


It's a whole lot more complicated than mere fleet commonality, and in fact, there are a number of airlines that have gone for both types in their fleets.
Actually, it hasn't been determined the 77X is a good product for NZ yet or not, there hasn't been one built, last time NZ bought off the plan they got shafted by Boeing for the best part of a decade. The 77X design has been custom designed for the ME3 and the Apex flag carriers with large fleets, lavish first and business class cabins and high passenger volumes. It's a lot of plane to fill and it suits the kinds of airlines that have existing A380 fleets. It will likely be different from the initial design, they always are sightly. The 787 was technically supposed to be capable of flying with a different engine type on either side of the plane, The Boeing guys themselves told me that when I was onboard the demo -8/-9 planes in AKL but that ended up not being possible for whatever reason. If it was able NZ wouldn't have the issues it faces right now.

Secondly, If Boeing (or Airbus) can't deliver a 77X (A350) until 2025 before any production hold-ups. what is NZ supposed to do?? struggle on with an ageing fleet in the face of newer more reliable competition? NZ was burned by having to wait so long for the 787. During that time NZ couldn't expand, they couldn't develop new markets or compete properly. That was a time that there were many fewer airlines which was their saving grace. It is a timing thing. The order will go to whoever can offer the slots that NZ wants and on the right terms. The right terms include offering discounts off sticker or great terms on the short haul A32x fleet (or even C Series), which of course NZ has shown they prefer over the Max. Airlines are looking for flexibility of airframe and also value for money to maximise their investment.

There's nothing definite to indicate one is favoured by NZ or not. I would not be surprised with either Airbus or Boeing.
Flown to 147 Airports in 62 Countries on 83 Operators and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
zkncj
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:20 am

I do think the 787 delivery delay will have weight in the choice of the 777 replacement, NZ got burnt badly by Boeing with that and ended up having to operate the 767s 5 years beyond there ideal service life at an much higher operating cost.

With the 350-900 already in service, and with the 350-1000 nearing entering service it will defiantly have some appeal, when weighting in on the risk of waiting for the for the 777-8/9 which both could have major development delays.

I think the order could go either way, really depends on who can provide the best price to fit the budget that is going to provide the best product.

Also think the overall fleet developments over the next 10 years will have some impact too, NZ will be starting to look for the right price for replacing the early domestic A320s for example ZK-OAB is now 7 years old (2011). So would expect by 2020-21 the replacement order for the Domestic fleet will be made.

Then you have the Q300 fleet ZK-NEA is now 13 years old (2005), there is no direct replacement for the Q300 apart from the ATR 42-600 which seems to be an slow seller. You expect by 2020 we will start to see some move around the future of the Q300 fleet.

Allowing for growth could see some ATR 72-600s take over Q300 routes, with around 10x CS100s being added to grow the current ATR routes. By 2020 AKL-NSN could probably support an CS100.
 
Motorhussy
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:53 am

CHI2DFW wrote:
planemanofnz wrote:
Motorhussy wrote:
Having flown on CX A350’s a few times recently, I too hope that NZ goes for them to replace the 77E & 77W with the A359 and A35J, plus the A359ULR for opening new routes.

They’re a really good passenger experience plus the economics clearly stack up.

Not to mention how good they look in the NZ livery! :cheerful:

Image

Image

See: https://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?/f ... -a350-900/.

Cheers,

C.


Who will see this beauty next?
1). EWR
2). ORD
3). DEN
4). LAS
5). SEA
6). YYZ
7). BOS
8). ATL
9). AUS
10). DTW
11). CLT
12). PHX
13). DFW
14). PHX
15). PHL
16). None of the above:


Ummm that's an Airbus A350-900 not a Boeing 787-9. It is not part of the Air NZ at this juncture.

nz2 wrote:
Nothing wrong with the Boeing product.


Overweight and over-specced, actually yes there is when it comes to the 77X... and when it comes to the 789, it's not up to snuff when it comes to premium heavy long-haul routes and the development of new ULH ones.

And your assertion that the plane's appearance has any bearing to its suitability as a 77E/W replacement is at best specious.
come visit the south pacific
 
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VirginFlyer
Posts: 5571
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:56 am

zkncj wrote:
planemanofnz wrote:
AKL will get a new hotel this week, with "Naumi Auckland Airport" to launch on Thursday (1 February).

I wonder if airlines will move crew lay-overs here? AFAIK, PR's crews now stay in the vicinity of AKL.

See: https://www.we-heart.com/2018/01/26/nau ... ort-hotel/.

Cheers,

C.


Isn't this just the "Hotel Grand Chancellor Auckland Airport" being re-branded and upgraded? While its an new name, that hotel has been there for around 20-30 years.

It may well be having its formal opening this week, but it has been open for a while; I stayed there for a night in December. There was still some work going on in parts of it. It seemed quite funky, although there were a few giveaways of its age. I got the impression transit passengers (and crews for that matter) from Asia were a major demographic they were targeting. I saw a Malaysia Airlines crew getting ready to leave as I checked in fairly late in the evening.

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
Deepinsider
Posts: 171
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:40 am

There seems to be a trend here to push/pull, or otherwise... A350 vs B777/787.
Point 1, The airlines (probably NZ is being talked about here) will pick what most
fits their payload/range/availability(purchase deal?)/and all sorts of stuff unknown to us here.
Point 2, Whether we like one or the other, could quite likely be much more due to the
interior seating/config/service we got, nothing to do with the airframe itself. (Think of
the NZ 767 business class near the end, when they steadfastly refused to call it premium
economy, making it truly the worlds worst business class! ..but there's nothing wrong
with the well proven 767) Further, NZ had a good Business product on the late 747 and
current 777's but utterly ruined it on the 787 by greedily squeezing in one row too many.
For me, there is no meaningful difference between modern jets, OTHER than the seats,
service, and provided onboard facilities. Which can be huge, depending on that carrier's
choices.
Point 3, Don't wish NZ gets A350's...wish they put in comfortable interiors!
 
Motorhussy
Posts: 3673
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 7:49 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:45 am

Deepinsider wrote:
Point 3, Don't wish NZ gets A350's...wish they put in comfortable interiors!


NZ’s 787 interior will be marginally more comfortable in the A350. The 777 interior in the 77X will be the 777 interior.
come visit the south pacific
 
Andrensn
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:10 pm

zkncj wrote:
Allowing for growth could see some ATR 72-600s take over Q300 routes, with around 10x CS100s being added to grow the current ATR routes. By 2020 AKL-NSN could probably support an CS100.

I think any CS100 fleet would probably be based out of CHC flying to primarily DUD, ZQN and WLG as those have the most traffic of all the ATR routes (they had ATRs before the -600s were purchased). Also they have the advantage of not needing additional aviation security setup as they already receive jet services.

Also, is the NSN runway long enough to support CS100 flights?
 
DavidByrne
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:18 pm

Andrensn wrote:
zkncj wrote:
Allowing for growth could see some ATR 72-600s take over Q300 routes, with around 10x CS100s being added to grow the current ATR routes. By 2020 AKL-NSN could probably support an CS100.

I think any CS100 fleet would probably be based out of CHC flying to primarily DUD, ZQN and WLG as those have the most traffic of all the ATR routes (they had ATRs before the -600s were purchased). Also they have the advantage of not needing additional aviation security setup as they already receive jet services.

Also, is the NSN runway long enough to support CS100 flights?

Also perhaps other “long thin” routes like CHC-HLZ, CHC-TRG, CHC-PMR etc. Even AKL-DUD at 4-5 per day in place of the current 3 per day. If there was a CS100 purchase then it must also surely be a more viable aircraft to make AKL-CBR, HBA, NTL etc work?
This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
 
NZ6
Posts: 1613
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:24 pm

planemanofnz wrote:
The New Zealand Taxpayers’ Union has said that the new SQ WLG - MEL service is "unlikely to be successful."

They say that "Jetstar had to discontinue their Wellington-Melbourne route in 2016 because it was unprofitable."

Ultimately, they are asking the Wellington Regional Economic Development Agency to cancel their deal with SQ.

See: http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1801/S ... vealed.htm.

A petition has been launched.

See: http://www.taxpayers.org.nz/wreda_petition.

What do you think? Is the NZTU being naive, in not appreciating the benefit of a global airline marketing WLG?

Is the subsidy that unpopular?

Cheers,

C.


Not at all, seriously why would a non airline enthusiast or airport execute want their tax payer money going into a WLG-MEL route? A service which is already serviced by multiple other airlines including the national airline of NZ and Australia and is marginal for them left alone supporting a new carrier.

There are already connections to SIN with both of those carriers and there's about 30+ domestic flights to AKL which connects directly to many other places around the pacific if not serviced via MEL.

You'd be mad to expect an increase in tourism in WLG from this route. CBR had a small argument based on the fact no other carrier flew into CBR from NZ, but MEL is a whole other story.

Personally, I believe tax payer money should be spent elsewhere. I'm all for WLG's dream of Asian flights/carries, but the fact they can't be supported without funding suggests the true need for such a service just isn't there.
 
Gasman
Posts: 2203
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:06 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:30 pm

axio wrote:
I would have thought Antarctica would be off-limits for NZ; although after Rico maybe nothing is off limits.
Just seems an unnecessary choice to me - surely there are plenty of other excellent settings for safety vids.

Unbelievably dumb - it makes Ricco seem like an intuitive and inspired piece of marketing.

Yes, it's been nearly 40 years but I'm barely "over" Erebus myself, and I knew none of the victims of the disaster. A disaster which has since been perpetuated, firstly by the slightly unsophisticated (if accurate) analysis by Chippindale, followed by the well communicated but factually devoid and highly biased emotionally charged diatribe of Mahon. It's no wonder the families involved still feel like they're awaiting closure. There hasn't yet been a competent and wholistic analysis in any official capacity.
 
A350OZ
Posts: 174
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:20 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:39 pm

Andrensn wrote:
I think any CS100 fleet would probably be based out of CHC flying to primarily DUD, ZQN and WLG as those have the most traffic of all the ATR routes (they had ATRs before the -600s were purchased). Also they have the advantage of not needing additional aviation security setup as they already receive jet services.

Also, is the NSN runway long enough to support CS100 flights?


I would believe so, at 1347m it is longer than the longest runway at Rio's Santos Dumont Airport (SDU), which sees hundreds of 737s and A319s operating in and out every day. (Not sure what other restrictions there are though regarding width, load, apporach etc.)

NSN, DUD and TRG could greatly benefit from an efficient small-jet service on the longer domestic sectors.
 
NZ6
Posts: 1613
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:58 pm

Gasman wrote:
axio wrote:
I would have thought Antarctica would be off-limits for NZ; although after Rico maybe nothing is off limits.
Just seems an unnecessary choice to me - surely there are plenty of other excellent settings for safety vids.

Unbelievably dumb - it makes Ricco seem like an intuitive and inspired piece of marketing.

Yes, it's been nearly 40 years but I'm barely "over" Erebus myself, and I knew none of the victims of the disaster. A disaster which has since been perpetuated, firstly by the slightly unsophisticated (if accurate) analysis by Chippindale, followed by the well communicated but factually devoid and highly biased emotionally charged diatribe of Mahon. It's no wonder the families involved still feel like they're awaiting closure. There hasn't yet been a competent and wholistic analysis in any official capacity.


This is a touchy subject, we need to be mindful of those directly impacted. I also know employees effected by this disaster and it will always be with them.

This will read harsh but it's not intended to be received in that way, at some point we need to remember but put behind us Erebus. NZ has formally apologized for the way it managed the disaster, there's a monument at their CBD hub to remember those by and it's also gone to a lot of efforts to take the families of those effected back to Antarctica.

This is a video to help "raise awareness of enviromental and scientific issues" much like their DOC video did a few years back with the partnership they had with them at the time.

NZ is not attempting to commence scenic flights again, this isn't a Ricco style safety video, it'll be a light comical video on an important global topic.

I personally believe NZ has reached out to the families first which shows they are being sensitive to them in regards to this.

I guess what I'm saying is, does NZ need to avoid Antarctica permanently or does there become a point when they can slowly promote this continent again? Remember some airlines like MH have to commence flying routes days/weeks after a disaster..

As I said, I'm not trying to be offensive towards those who lost loved ones. I'ts just a consideration from my view.
 
Gasman
Posts: 2203
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:06 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:09 pm

NZ6 wrote:
I guess what I'm saying is, does NZ need to avoid Antarctica permanently

Certainly not in any legal sense; and arguably no longer in an ethical sense either. It HAS been 40 years and NZ is now a completely different animal.

But I think the intuitive NZ marketer would have realised that - rightly or wrongly - there are still people around that are deeply affected by this. Why take the risk of antagonising them and potentially attracting adverse publicity if you don't absolutely have to? The fact that this discussion is already happening in the mainstream media proves me correct on this point.
 
zkncj
Posts: 3910
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:12 pm

A350OZ wrote:
Andrensn wrote:
I think any CS100 fleet would probably be based out of CHC flying to primarily DUD, ZQN and WLG as those have the most traffic of all the ATR routes (they had ATRs before the -600s were purchased). Also they have the advantage of not needing additional aviation security setup as they already receive jet services.

Also, is the NSN runway long enough to support CS100 flights?


I would believe so, at 1347m it is longer than the longest runway at Rio's Santos Dumont Airport (SDU), which sees hundreds of 737s and A319s operating in and out every day. (Not sure what other restrictions there are though regarding width, load, apporach etc.)

NSN, DUD and TRG could greatly benefit from an efficient small-jet service on the longer domestic sectors.


The CS100/300 both operate in LCY with LX, so short step take/landings are to much of an issue.
 
NZ6
Posts: 1613
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:23 pm

Gasman wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
I guess what I'm saying is, does NZ need to avoid Antarctica permanently

Certainly not in any legal sense; and arguably no longer in an ethical sense either. It HAS been 40 years and NZ is now a completely different animal.

But I think the intuitive NZ marketer would have realised that - rightly or wrongly - there are still people around that are deeply affected by this. Why take the risk of antagonising them and potentially attracting adverse publicity if you don't absolutely have to? The fact that this discussion is already happening in the mainstream media proves me correct on this point.


It think the jury will come out when the video is released. If it's done well, it could be a significant step forward. If done poorly then a bad move and the undoing of a lot of hard work.

It's a brave move, I agree with that.

I'm feeling optimistic and supportive of the move at this point. I think the timing and motive is healthy.
 
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mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:03 am

NZ6 wrote:
It's a brave move, I agree with that.

I'm feeling optimistic and supportive of the move at this point. I think the timing and motive is healthy.


Image

I hope so. Obviously, I won't know till I see it, but it feels like the right time - not to forget, but to move on.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
Gasman
Posts: 2203
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:06 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:10 am

mariner wrote:
I hope so. Obviously, I won't know till I see it, but it feels like the right time - not to forget, but to move on.

mariner

What will you "not know"?

It could be the slickest, most sensitive production in the universe but my point is there will always be some for whom the mere fact that something with NZ's name on it occupies the same bandwidth as Antarctica will be highly emotive. For those affected, the motivation to "move on" can only come from within.

I guess what remains unknown is the extent of any offence that will be caused. Let's hope it's not released during a slow news period.
 
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Zkpilot
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:59 am

I’m now thinking NZ will go with the A350.
If the A35J can make EWR with a respectable payload then they’ll replace both 77E and 77W with it (and a few more 789).
If it can’t then a mix of A359 and A35J.
64 types. 45 countries. 24 airlines.
 
zkncj
Posts: 3910
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2018

Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:02 am

Zkpilot wrote:
I’m now thinking NZ will go with the A350.
If the A35J can make EWR with a respectable payload then they’ll replace both 77E and 77W with it (and a few more 789).
If it can’t then a mix of A359 and A35J.


With the 77E and the 77W have an very similar seat it does make sense to try go for an single type to replace all of the 777s, even its across two orders.
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