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klm617
Posts: 2959
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:25 pm

CVGDTWfan wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:

Seriously? I must have never noticed this through all these years.
Yes, I don't know when it started but it was like that in W14/15 I believe. Hopefully, with the 787-9 or 777-200ER, this allows them to go daily. Not to mention, this summer the DTW-CDG route will go to 3x daily, with DL running a 76W and 333 while AF flies the 787-9 and 777. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the flights turned into a 359 for Delta at some point though.


Just out of curiosity, I know that KLM used to operate one of the AMS flights years ago. Is there any reason why in 2018, that AF operates one of the 3 DTW-CDG routes but KLM doesn't operate any of the 4 DTW-AMS routes?



That has perplexed me for ages but I think it might be politically motivated as you never really see Detroit get more serve than MSP when it comes to the JV partners and you always find MSP and Detroit pretty much on par with MSP always being slightly a head. I believe there is a gentleman's agreement in place between Delta and the powers that be in Minnesota to keep Delta in good standing as far as state reps go and to ensure they get whatever they need as far as tax breaks to get pushed through for them. DTW has AF and AM MSP has AF and KL, MSP has more international and domestic service service than Detroit has. DTW got an extra CDG flight while getting AMS reduced and MSP got a bump up to have almost as many seats as DTW to AMS in the. MSP while getting FCO axed got KEF and HNL while DTW maintained it's MUC flight. summer. MSP has larger gauge while DTW has more flights. DTW got many of their markets cut while MSP maintained most of theirs
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:31 pm

flymco753 wrote:
CVGDTWfan wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Yes, I don't know when it started but it was like that in W14/15 I believe. Hopefully, with the 787-9 or 777-200ER, this allows them to go daily. Not to mention, this summer the DTW-CDG route will go to 3x daily, with DL running a 76W and 333 while AF flies the 787-9 and 777. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the flights turned into a 359 for Delta at some point though.


Just out of curiosity, I know that KLM used to operate one of the AMS flights years ago. Is there any reason why in 2018, that AF operates one of the 3 DTW-CDG routes but KLM doesn't operate any of the 4 DTW-AMS routes?
There’s no need for KLM to do so. Delta will probably have 2 A350s on the route and would utilize the 333 on the other 2 frequencies.



But there is a great need for KLM to take over one of the DTW-AMS flights being that this is the only major hub within the Delta network not providing customer choice with those travelers who identify with the KLM brand over the Delta brad. That lack of choice takes away transfer passengers from Detroit and revenue for the airport. One could argue that there is no need for KLM to serve ATL. There was a time when KLM suspended ATL while maintaining 2 DTW flights making DTW more relevant in KLM's eyes than ATL
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
beerbus
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Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 2:41 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:34 pm

klm617 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
CVGDTWfan wrote:



But there is a great need for KLM to take over one of the DTW-AMS flights being that this is the only major hub within the Delta network not providing customer choice with those travelers who identify with the KLM brand over the Delta brad. That lack of choice takes away transfer passengers from Detroit and revenue for the airport. One could argue that there is no need for KLM to serve ATL. There was a time when KLM suspended ATL while maintaining 2 DTW flights making DTW more relevant in KLM's eyes than ATL


With respect, I would suggest your hypothesis on why either KL or DL serve a particular city pair is inaccurate. There isn't any conspiracy to favor one airport over another.

The revenue on a TATL flight is shared using each passengers flight number. Remember- there are multiple airline flight numbers for the same flight. Basically, (with some base cost sharing and prorates for connections) if the tkt is a KL flight number- they get the revenue, if it's a DL flt number- they get the revenue. Who provides the AC doesn't really matter. The deciding factor on what carrier flies the route is AC and crew optimization & availability TATL for both carriers. The schedulers from DL and KL jointly decide what AL flies.

When I was involved in selling TATL flights for the involved carriers, I was never concerned on "who's" aircraft flew the city pair. It didn't matter.

Each time a new DTW AMS flight was added- I was happy to have additional corporate selling opportunity. It didn't matter whether NW or KL flew it.

Wayne County didn't care who flew it either. They were happy for the added service.

My revenue performance metrics were based upon total passenger revenue generated in the market. NOT what AL provided the aircraft. When the KL/NW JV was started, NW took over nearly all North America sales and reservations functions for KL, The same happened on the flip side in Europe. KL took over for NW. We made sure that service enhancements on both carriers were similar. There is/was heavy discussion to make sure the airport, and inflight service levels were similar. I have flown TATL in all cabins on both carriers- there isn't much difference. And most passengers aren't concerned about the airline- they are concerned about schedules and ticket prices. You can't have a JV last 25+ years in this industry if it didn't work for BOTH airlines.

Wayne County and the Metropolitan Airports Commission in MSP also don't care who's aircraft provide the service to AMS. They get paid the same either way in landing and gate fees, with the usual benefit of additional service to AMS. A connection over DTW or MSP is better than a cnx over ORD in their eyes.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:42 pm

beerbus wrote:
klm617 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:


With respect, I would suggest your hypothesis on why either KL or DL serve a particular city pair is inaccurate. There isn't any conspiracy to favor one airport over another.

The revenue on a TATL flight is shared using each passengers flight number. Remember- there are multiple airline flight numbers for the same flight. Basically, (with some base cost sharing and prorates for connections) if the tkt is a KL flight number- they get the revenue, if it's a DL flt number- they get the revenue. Who provides the AC doesn't really matter. The deciding factor on what carrier flies the route is AC and crew optimization & availability TATL for both carriers. The schedulers from DL and KL jointly decide what AL flies.

When I was involved in selling TATL flights for the involved carriers, I was never concerned on "who's" aircraft flew the city pair. It didn't matter.

Each time a new DTW AMS flight was added- I was happy to have additional corporate selling opportunity. It didn't matter whether NW or KL flew it.

Wayne County didn't care who flew it either. They were happy for the added service.

My revenue performance metrics were based upon total passenger revenue generated in the market. NOT what AL provided the aircraft. When the KL/NW JV was started, NW took over nearly all North America sales and reservations functions for KL, The same happened on the flip side in Europe. KL took over for NW. We made sure that service enhancements on both carriers were similar. There is/was heavy discussion to make sure the airport, and inflight service levels were similar. I have flown TATL in all cabins on both carriers- there isn't much difference. And most passengers aren't concerned about the airline- they are concerned about schedules and ticket prices. You can't have a JV last 25+ years in this industry if it didn't work for BOTH airlines.

Wayne County and the Metropolitan Airports Commission in MSP also don't care who's aircraft provide the service to AMS. They get paid the same either way in landing and gate fees, with the usual benefit of additional service to AMS. A connection over DTW or MSP is better than a cnx over ORD in their eyes.



While that is all true from a customer stand point there is a difference. Why should the customer not have the choice of a better grade of in flight service on KLM over Delta on the Detroit route if they chose and why shouldn't a customer who feels more comfortable with the KLM brand not have that choice being this is Delta's number 2 hub. That is also part of the problem Wayne County should care. While you can make sure that the product is similar you can't change the attitude of the crew and their attentiveness to the passengers and their inflight experience. Let's face it a Dutch customer will most likely chose KLM over Delta and on the Detroit Amsterdam route they don't have that option and what warrant a AMS-MSP rotation over a DTW rotation when Detroit is a much bigger international gateway when both airlines fly the same size aircraft.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:13 am

beerbus wrote:
klm617 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:


With respect, I would suggest your hypothesis on why either KL or DL serve a particular city pair is inaccurate. There isn't any conspiracy to favor one airport over another.

The revenue on a TATL flight is shared using each passengers flight number. Remember- there are multiple airline flight numbers for the same flight. Basically, (with some base cost sharing and prorates for connections) if the tkt is a KL flight number- they get the revenue, if it's a DL flt number- they get the revenue. Who provides the AC doesn't really matter. The deciding factor on what carrier flies the route is AC and crew optimization & availability TATL for both carriers. The schedulers from DL and KL jointly decide what AL flies.

When I was involved in selling TATL flights for the involved carriers, I was never concerned on "who's" aircraft flew the city pair. It didn't matter.

Each time a new DTW AMS flight was added- I was happy to have additional corporate selling opportunity. It didn't matter whether NW or KL flew it.

Wayne County didn't care who flew it either. They were happy for the added service.

My revenue performance metrics were based upon total passenger revenue generated in the market. NOT what AL provided the aircraft. When the KL/NW JV was started, NW took over nearly all North America sales and reservations functions for KL, The same happened on the flip side in Europe. KL took over for NW. We made sure that service enhancements on both carriers were similar. There is/was heavy discussion to make sure the airport, and inflight service levels were similar. I have flown TATL in all cabins on both carriers- there isn't much difference. And most passengers aren't concerned about the airline- they are concerned about schedules and ticket prices. You can't have a JV last 25+ years in this industry if it didn't work for BOTH airlines.

Wayne County and the Metropolitan Airports Commission in MSP also don't care who's aircraft provide the service to AMS. They get paid the same either way in landing and gate fees, with the usual benefit of additional service to AMS. A connection over DTW or MSP is better than a cnx over ORD in their eyes.



So what you're telling me is that if Delta started adding routes left and right from Detroit and added nothing in the MSP market no one would raise an eyebrow at the Metropolitan Airports Commission.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:37 am

klm617 wrote:
beerbus wrote:
klm617 wrote:


With respect, I would suggest your hypothesis on why either KL or DL serve a particular city pair is inaccurate. There isn't any conspiracy to favor one airport over another.

The revenue on a TATL flight is shared using each passengers flight number. Remember- there are multiple airline flight numbers for the same flight. Basically, (with some base cost sharing and prorates for connections) if the tkt is a KL flight number- they get the revenue, if it's a DL flt number- they get the revenue. Who provides the AC doesn't really matter. The deciding factor on what carrier flies the route is AC and crew optimization & availability TATL for both carriers. The schedulers from DL and KL jointly decide what AL flies.

When I was involved in selling TATL flights for the involved carriers, I was never concerned on "who's" aircraft flew the city pair. It didn't matter.

Each time a new DTW AMS flight was added- I was happy to have additional corporate selling opportunity. It didn't matter whether NW or KL flew it.

Wayne County didn't care who flew it either. They were happy for the added service.

My revenue performance metrics were based upon total passenger revenue generated in the market. NOT what AL provided the aircraft. When the KL/NW JV was started, NW took over nearly all North America sales and reservations functions for KL, The same happened on the flip side in Europe. KL took over for NW. We made sure that service enhancements on both carriers were similar. There is/was heavy discussion to make sure the airport, and inflight service levels were similar. I have flown TATL in all cabins on both carriers- there isn't much difference. And most passengers aren't concerned about the airline- they are concerned about schedules and ticket prices. You can't have a JV last 25+ years in this industry if it didn't work for BOTH airlines.

Wayne County and the Metropolitan Airports Commission in MSP also don't care who's aircraft provide the service to AMS. They get paid the same either way in landing and gate fees, with the usual benefit of additional service to AMS. A connection over DTW or MSP is better than a cnx over ORD in their eyes.



So what you're telling me is that if Delta started adding routes left and right from Detroit and added nothing in the MSP market no one would raise an eyebrow at the Metropolitan Airports Commission.
They wouldn't if it's not noticeably larger of a market or if it meets Delta's network plans. MSP has little connectivity from the East Coast and South. If Delta added DTW-BIS, FAR, or DLH and ended MSP service, then they'd catch on. If DL added ISP/HVN/ORH/ROA/PHF/CHO/CAE-DTW in some kind of fictitious expansion, they wouldn't question that because they know DL's east to west is secondarily flown through DTW.
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jplatts
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:02 am

flymco753 wrote:
So what you're telling me is that if Delta started adding routes left and right from Detroit and added nothing in the MSP market no one would raise an eyebrow at the Metropolitan Airports Commission.
They wouldn't if it's not noticeably larger of a market or if it meets Delta's network plans. MSP has little connectivity from the East Coast and South. If Delta added DTW-BIS, FAR, or DLH and ended MSP service, then they'd catch on. If DL added ISP/HVN/ORH/ROA/PHF/CHO/CAE-DTW in some kind of fictitious expansion, they wouldn't question that because they know DL's east to west is secondarily flown through DTW.[/quote]

DL does have nonstop service to MSP from some of its destinations in the South, including ATL, AUS, CLT, DFW, FLL, RSW, IAH, TYS, MEM, MIA, BNA, MSY, OKC, MCO, SAT, RDU, TPA, and TUL. DL can connect passengers to the Northwest, the Upper Midwest, and Canada from some of DL's Southern destinations through its MSP hub.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:24 am

jplatts wrote:
DL does have nonstop service to MSP from some of its destinations in the South, including ATL, AUS, CLT, DFW, FLL, RSW, IAH, TYS, MEM, MIA, BNA, MSY, OKC, MCO, SAT, RDU, TPA, and TUL. DL can connect passengers to the Northwest, the Upper Midwest, and Canada from some of DL's Southern destinations through its MSP hub.
Yeah but that's not in Delta's scope, I can't think of DL wanting to route someone flying from AUS to BUF through MSP or OKC to ALB through MSP. PHX to SYR, more likely through MSP. MCO-BTV, most likely through DTW and so on.
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jplatts
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:31 am

flymco753 wrote:
jplatts wrote:
DL does have nonstop service to MSP from some of its destinations in the South, including ATL, AUS, CLT, DFW, FLL, RSW, IAH, TYS, MEM, MIA, BNA, MSY, OKC, MCO, SAT, RDU, TPA, and TUL. DL can connect passengers to the Northwest, the Upper Midwest, and Canada from some of DL's Southern destinations through its MSP hub.
Yeah but that's not in Delta's scope, I can't think of DL wanting to route someone flying from AUS to BUF through MSP or OKC to ALB through MSP. PHX to SYR, more likely through MSP. MCO-BTV, most likely through DTW and so on.


I agree with your point, but the kind of connections you are mentioning are connections between the South and the Northeast through DTW on DL.
 
beerbus
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:32 pm

flymco753 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
beerbus wrote:

So what you're telling me is that if Delta started adding routes left and right from Detroit and added nothing in the MSP market no one would raise an eyebrow at the Metropolitan Airports Commission.


Yep-

Here's some facts:

1. Carriers add service were it makes economic sense. If it makes sense to add DTW vs MSP, the MAC would understand that. Carriers don't add/remove service to make an airport board or commission happy. ie....MEM, CVG, PIT, BNA, and CLE are all closed hubs for example. I am sure the airport boards at those facilities were not happy, but AA, DL, and UA did what they had to do for economic reasons.

2. NW added significant service from DTW to Asia in previous periods as part of their TPAC expansion- there's wasn't a ruckus from the MAC. MSP didn't see a similar TPAC expansion at the time. And Wayne County had little to do with the DTW TPAC expansion. In fact, NW had to work around significant operational issues caused by deficient DTW international gates.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:35 pm

beerbus wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
klm617 wrote:


Yep-

Here's some facts:

1. Carriers add service were it makes economic sense. If it makes sense to add DTW vs MSP, the MAC would understand that. Carriers don't add/remove service to make an airport board or commission happy. ie....MEM, CVG, PIT, BNA, and CLE are all closed hubs for example. I am sure the airport boards at those facilities were not happy, but AA, DL, and UA did what they had to do for economic reasons.

2. NW added significant service from DTW to Asia in previous periods as part of their TPAC expansion- there's wasn't a ruckus from the MAC. MSP didn't see a similar TPAC expansion at the time. And Wayne County had little to do with the DTW TPAC expansion. In fact, NW had to work around significant operational issues caused by deficient DTW international gates.



The playing field is different then Northwest's headquarters was located in Minneapolis so MSP's relevance was set in stone that was no longer the case when Delta took over because they moved the base of operations to ATL. So the MAC would have more of an ax to grind if Delta starting expanding Detroit and neglected Detroit. As far as adding routes they are many routes that are not added to protect the flow over another hub that would be perfectly feasible but are not added for that reason only. Just look at all the international links out of ATL most of those are not feasible as stand alone routes but Delta makes them feasible because of the connectivity so if Delta want to protect those links to ATL it's not going to add them at MSP or DTW even if with connections just like ATL the flight could be sustained.. STR is a great example of this DTW-STR is just as sustainable as ATL-STR but being there isn't enough flow to sustain two flights at STR ATL is chosen over DTW even though STR-DTW would work just as well as ATL-STR. GNL-MSP is another great example of this DTW-HNL could do the same thing as MSP-HNL but it's not added because there isn't enough flow for two HNL flights into the Midwest so MSP is preserved over DTW but both would work just as easy.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
jordanh
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:07 pm

klm617 wrote:
. STR is a great example of this DTW-STR is just as sustainable as ATL-STR but being there isn't enough flow to sustain two flights at STR ATL is chosen over DTW even though STR-DTW would work just as well as ATL-STR.


Based on... what evidence?

Perhaps you have never heard of little "Mercedes Benz"; based in Stuttgart, and running its American headquarters in Atlanta. There is also another obscure car company named "Porsche"; it is a Stuttgart auto manufacturer whose U.S. headquarters is - can get it in three guesses? - in Atlanta. Can you name one company based in Stuttgart who selected Detroit for its local headquarters - and make DTW "just as sustainable at ATL-STR"?

If you don't think those corporate contracts amount to millions of dollars a year... I have some swampland in Florida to sell you... :roll:
 
beerbus
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:25 pm

klm617 wrote:
beerbus wrote:
flymco753 wrote:


The playing field is different then Northwest's headquarters was located in Minneapolis so MSP's relevance was set in stone that was no longer the case when Delta took over because they moved the base of operations to ATL. So the MAC would have more of an ax to grind if Delta starting expanding Detroit and neglected Detroit.


I would factually disagree. I don't think the playing field is any different.

Here are some more facts:

1. When NW expanded DTW, after the RC acquistion, and the new McNamara terminal, it's expansion rate was higher than MSP.
2. DTW was expanded more than MSP because it offered a higher rate of economic return than MSP did.
3. And DTW was expanded even though the NW General Office was located in MSP. The location of the GO makes no difference on where flights are added from. The Income Statement drives new market entry.

(interestingly, I heard a few folks I worked with at NW during that era whine about "DTW getting all the new service- what about MSP?" I thought they were viewing things emotionally, NOT financially. Not factually. Guess what- when we had Reductions in Force- they were usually the first be reduced....(terminated).)

My point is that DL still employs Senior Managers and Officers with Northwest roots. Those same folks who for economic reasons placed a priority on DTW over MSP, have no issue placing ATL over both historic NW fortress hubs.

They are paid to make good economic decisions.

If they don't- they find themselves on the street, like the folks I worked with who whined about DTW supposedly getting service at the expense of MSP.
 
hjulicher
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:04 pm

jordanh wrote:

Perhaps you have never heard of little "Mercedes Benz"; based in Stuttgart, and running its American headquarters in Atlanta. There is also another obscure car company named "Porsche"; it is a Stuttgart auto manufacturer whose U.S. headquarters is - can get it in three guesses? - in Atlanta. Can you name one company based in Stuttgart who selected Detroit for its local headquarters - and make DTW "just as sustainable at ATL-STR"?

If you don't think those corporate contracts amount to millions of dollars a year... I have some swampland in Florida to sell you... :roll:


DTW has also Robert Bosch AG, Mahle AG, Behr, ZF, Brose, and basically every engineering arm of any automaker and supplier. ATL has Porsche and Mercedes HQ, but those locations focus on marketing and sales. All engineering and R&D takes place in Stuttgart-Munich cooridor, Southeast Michigan, Nagoya, Shanghai, Seoul and Sao Paolo (in that order). Those are the global automotive clusters in the world. Thus DTW-STR is an equally viable O&D, but the connecting opportunities out of ATL are greater and had STR service even before DL and NW merged (it was in 1996 that Mercedes opened the plant in Alabama). Mercedes Benz Financial Services are based in Metro Detroit interestingly. I'm pretty sure DTW could sustain service, but given that STR is not a LH hub, the only hopes of service is on DL, which would then cannibalize the ATL-STR route.
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drdisque
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:40 pm

Mercedes-Benz Financial is in Detroit because when they owned Chrysler it was merged into Daimler-Chrysler Financial Services. After the split Mercedes-Benz Financial also split and moved down 696 a few exits and Chrysler Financial stayed put. Then Chrysler Financial was purchased by Cerberus for pennies who also owned GMAC. They tried to merge them but GM and Chrysler Corp dealers weren't too fond of sharing the same in-house financing company so Chrysler Financial was sold to TD and became TD Auto Finance and GMAC became Ally and moved towards becoming a real bank rather than just a financing arm.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:09 pm

The reality is that DTW-STR is numerous, easy single connection opportunities over AMS, CDG, FRA.
Not to mention easy rail access between the airports/cities that its not a difficult journey.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:37 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
The reality is that DTW-STR is numerous, easy single connection opportunities over AMS, CDG, FRA.
Not to mention easy rail access between the airports/cities that its not a difficult journey.


That is absolutely correct but if the flight was shifted to DTW then ATL would have those same numerous one stop connections. The point is that DTW-STR is just as viable as ATL-STR but there isn't enough traffic for both so Delta choses to route their connections over ATL rather than DTW. I would venture to say that when Delta first started ATL-STR it was aimed at the military and the transport of military personnel between the south and Germany.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
beerbus
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:50 pm

klm617 wrote:

I would venture to say that when Delta first started ATL-STR it was aimed at the military and the transport of military personnel between the south and Germany.


Airlines DO NOT add long-haul routes for MIL traffic.

This traffic is low-bid, low yield traffic. It is used to top-off flight loads. NW/DL carried a lot of low-yield MIL and refugee traffic TPAC to fill up the 747's used in the markets. It didn't add to profitability.

As other posters have noted, there is significant HIGH YIELD, industrial based traffic to STR that is of a SE USA origin.

I have flown in coach 2x on the DL ATL STR flight. Mostly business traffic.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:52 pm

beerbus wrote:
klm617 wrote:

I would venture to say that when Delta first started ATL-STR it was aimed at the military and the transport of military personnel between the south and Germany.


Airlines DO NOT add long-haul routes for MIL traffic.

This traffic is low-bid, low yield traffic. It is used to top-off flight loads. NW/DL carried a lot of low-yield MIL and refugee traffic TPAC to fill up the 747's used in the markets. It didn't add to profitability.

As other posters have noted, there is significant HIGH YIELD, industrial based traffic to STR that is of a SE USA origin.

I have flown in coach 2x on the DL ATL STR flight. Mostly business traffic.


Thank you for your very respectful response, information and insight it is very much appreciated.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:27 pm

Spirit just extended their schedule until November 3rd, 2018. I'm surprised to see a few seasonal destinations go through November like SEA, OAK, and BOS to name a few. I think the next time the schedule is extended, it'll eliminate these seasonal destinations for the winter and a new international destination (either MBJ or PUJ, maybe both) will be announced along with a winter seasonal domestic sun destination (PBI). I'm in the process of analyzing them now to find out flight times and aircraft and what not.

DEN also stays an A321 through October, hopefully it sticks.
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:00 pm

Security lines are getting progressively worse at DTW, my last flight out of the North Terminal was probably the worst with over an hour wait, good thing I like getting to my flights extra early. If I had a critical suggestion for the web developers of the WCAA is to make real time security wait times, do y'all agree? I also think the website in general needs some work. Personally would like to see updated terminal maps, new service announcement tabs and an airport FIDS section.
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klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:08 pm

Was talking to a travel agent friend yesterday and asked if they had been booking any WOW Air flights to which she told me no they are taking a wait and see attitude but should also said they don't book Spirit either so I didn't see her comment as negative towards WOW Air. Then we started talking about international fares out of DTW t Europe to which she told me they book A lot of YQG and YYZ flights because some flights are just to expensive out of Detroit and she told me that her commitment to her clients is to get them the cheapest fare possible so all of you who keep denying the amount of leakage there is out of DTW is not real I'm here to tell you that once again people are avoiding DTW because of it's high fares. There is a lot of lost revenue out there for the airport because there is no carrier that flies internationally out of Detroit that caters to the budget minded traveler and that deficiency needs to be addressed.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:11 pm

flymco753 wrote:
Security lines are getting progressively worse at DTW, my last flight out of the North Terminal was probably the worst with over an hour wait, good thing I like getting to my flights extra early. If I had a critical suggestion for the web developers of the WCAA is to make real time security wait times, do y'all agree? I also think the website in general needs some work. Personally would like to see updated terminal maps, new service announcement tabs and an airport FIDS section.



The WCAA doesn't care and are not very proactive when it comes to the customer experience at DTW.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
2Holer4Longhaul
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:32 pm

klm617 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Security lines are getting progressively worse at DTW, my last flight out of the North Terminal was probably the worst with over an hour wait, good thing I like getting to my flights extra early. If I had a critical suggestion for the web developers of the WCAA is to make real time security wait times, do y'all agree? I also think the website in general needs some work. Personally would like to see updated terminal maps, new service announcement tabs and an airport FIDS section.



The WCAA doesn't care and are not very proactive when it comes to the customer experience at DTW.

Would you want to trade them for the likes of the Port Authority?
"You know, if you just set out to be liked, you would be prepared to compromise on anything, wouldn't you, at any time? And you would achieve nothing!" - Margaret Thatcher
 
TryToFlySomeday
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:57 am

klm617 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Security lines are getting progressively worse at DTW, my last flight out of the North Terminal was probably the worst with over an hour wait, good thing I like getting to my flights extra early. If I had a critical suggestion for the web developers of the WCAA is to make real time security wait times, do y'all agree? I also think the website in general needs some work. Personally would like to see updated terminal maps, new service announcement tabs and an airport FIDS section.



The WCAA doesn't care and are not very proactive when it comes to the customer experience at DTW.
Sorry to break it to you, but you’re the reason a.net laughs and hates away at DTW.

Klm617, if you’re tired of DTW “doing status quo”, go to KHI and notice...how QR and EK are the only things people use.

Nothing near what DTW offers. Everyone in my family would rather fly through DXB or DOH, on EK/QR, than take a PK flight from YYZ or LHR. Because PK is awful! And they truly are the world’s worst! At least AI can fly to JFK.

At least your airport has access to four continents! Without PK, everyone would be routed through DOH, even to go east to AKL.

Be appreciative of what you have, don’t whine that DTW is doing so bad - they’re NOT. KHI is doing bad.

Anyways back on topic
Hi, I'm TryToFlySomeday. A guy who likes to analyze airlines, and loves road trips & airplane trips. Founder of the Roadgeeking Section and Pakistan Aviation Threads.

American-born Pakistani based in ORD. Favorite cities: ORD / GRR / DTW
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:06 am

TryToFlySomeday wrote:
klm617 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Security lines are getting progressively worse at DTW, my last flight out of the North Terminal was probably the worst with over an hour wait, good thing I like getting to my flights extra early. If I had a critical suggestion for the web developers of the WCAA is to make real time security wait times, do y'all agree? I also think the website in general needs some work. Personally would like to see updated terminal maps, new service announcement tabs and an airport FIDS section.



The WCAA doesn't care and are not very proactive when it comes to the customer experience at DTW.
Sorry to break it to you, but you’re the reason a.net laughs and hates away at DTW.

Klm617, if you’re tired of DTW “doing status quo”, go to KHI and notice...how QR and EK are the only things people use.

Nothing near what DTW offers. Everyone in my family would rather fly through DXB or DOH, on EK/QR, than take a PK flight from YYZ or LHR. Because PK is awful! And they truly are the world’s worst! At least AI can fly to JFK.

At least your airport has access to four continents! Without PK, everyone would be routed through DOH, even to go east to AKL.

Be appreciative of what you have, don’t whine that DTW is doing so bad - they’re NOT. KHI is doing bad.

Anyways back on topic


But you are equating DTW to KHI that isn't even a fare comparison and the reason PK is in the state it is is because of the corruption. PK was once a great airline but because of it's poor management it's in the state it is. Michigan is the largest manufacturing state
in the country and is not adequately served for the budget minded travel or the person that can't necessarily afford to fly if they can't get reasonable air fares. If flight from Europe to Detroit can be offered and half the fare as USA pos then there is something wrong with the system. I don't really care about the point of view of others as I am not a sheep that repeats what I hear just because it's the common theme that everyone is preaching. Detroit is doing very bad in comparison to the rise in air travel and that is because of the lack of affordable seats in this market. Detroit is not growing at the rate air travel is and being a major hub it should be on pace or better than the average at which air travel is growing.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:09 am

TryToFlySomeday wrote:
klm617 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Security lines are getting progressively worse at DTW, my last flight out of the North Terminal was probably the worst with over an hour wait, good thing I like getting to my flights extra early. If I had a critical suggestion for the web developers of the WCAA is to make real time security wait times, do y'all agree? I also think the website in general needs some work. Personally would like to see updated terminal maps, new service announcement tabs and an airport FIDS section.



The WCAA doesn't care and are not very proactive when it comes to the customer experience at DTW.
Sorry to break it to you, but you’re the reason a.net laughs and hates away at DTW.

Klm617, if you’re tired of DTW “doing status quo”, go to KHI and notice...how QR and EK are the only things people use.

Nothing near what DTW offers. Everyone in my family would rather fly through DXB or DOH, on EK/QR, than take a PK flight from YYZ or LHR. Because PK is awful! And they truly are the world’s worst! At least AI can fly to JFK.

At least your airport has access to four continents! Without PK, everyone would be routed through DOH, even to go east to AKL.

Be appreciative of what you have, don’t whine that DTW is doing so bad - they’re NOT. KHI is doing bad.

Anyways back on topic



It is also note worthy that the largest manufacturing state in the Union has not one single dedicated bulk cargo flight.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:42 am

flymco753 wrote:
Security lines are getting progressively worse at DTW, my last flight out of the North Terminal was probably the worst with over an hour wait, good thing I like getting to my flights extra early. If I had a critical suggestion for the web developers of the WCAA is to make real time security wait times, do y'all agree? I also think the website in general needs some work. Personally would like to see updated terminal maps, new service announcement tabs and an airport FIDS section.

Haven't noticed that much a difference than normal in McNamera but I'm usually not traveling out during peak times.
North Terminal tends to have much longer security lines since outbound flights are heavily concentrated into two periods throughout the day - early morning between 5:30am-8am and late-afternoon/early evening from 5pm-7pm. Outside of of those times, the outbound traffic is significantly less and/or less concentrated. The O&D focus of the North Terminal means it get slammed with departing passengers in the early morning.

That said, not surprised security lines are longer as this week is one of the peak spring break travel weeks in the region as many of the universities are on spring break this week.
The other big weeks will be the last week or March and the first week of April as those are the weeks when many of the school districts are on spring break.
This brings a lot more infrequent travelers to the airport and thus longer security lines.

That said, just get pre-check and avoid the lines.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:39 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Security lines are getting progressively worse at DTW, my last flight out of the North Terminal was probably the worst with over an hour wait, good thing I like getting to my flights extra early. If I had a critical suggestion for the web developers of the WCAA is to make real time security wait times, do y'all agree? I also think the website in general needs some work. Personally would like to see updated terminal maps, new service announcement tabs and an airport FIDS section.

Haven't noticed that much a difference than normal in McNamera but I'm usually not traveling out during peak times.
North Terminal tends to have much longer security lines since outbound flights are heavily concentrated into two periods throughout the day - early morning between 5:30am-8am and late-afternoon/early evening from 5pm-7pm. Outside of of those times, the outbound traffic is significantly less and/or less concentrated. The O&D focus of the North Terminal means it get slammed with departing passengers in the early morning.

That said, not surprised security lines are longer as this week is one of the peak spring break travel weeks in the region as many of the universities are on spring break this week.
The other big weeks will be the last week or March and the first week of April as those are the weeks when many of the school districts are on spring break.
This brings a lot more infrequent travelers to the airport and thus longer security lines.

That said, just get pre-check and avoid the lines.
Both terminals are getting pretty lengthy. I can see it with spring break but in general the lines are getting longer, I began to really notice it at the end of last summer. I try not to travel peak days because that’s when flights are either cheapest or less full. It’s good to see it though because it means travelers are beginning to chose their local airport over competing airports.

On a second note, I believe Allegiant could do DTW Zane coexist with FNT and TOL. DTW would carry SAV, VPS, JAX, and SRQ routes while FNT and TOL do the typical MYR, SFB, PIE, PGD, FLL services.
Resort, and other ground transportation options are on level 1.

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klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:56 pm

flymco753 wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Security lines are getting progressively worse at DTW, my last flight out of the North Terminal was probably the worst with over an hour wait, good thing I like getting to my flights extra early. If I had a critical suggestion for the web developers of the WCAA is to make real time security wait times, do y'all agree? I also think the website in general needs some work. Personally would like to see updated terminal maps, new service announcement tabs and an airport FIDS section.

Haven't noticed that much a difference than normal in McNamera but I'm usually not traveling out during peak times.
North Terminal tends to have much longer security lines since outbound flights are heavily concentrated into two periods throughout the day - early morning between 5:30am-8am and late-afternoon/early evening from 5pm-7pm. Outside of of those times, the outbound traffic is significantly less and/or less concentrated. The O&D focus of the North Terminal means it get slammed with departing passengers in the early morning.

That said, not surprised security lines are longer as this week is one of the peak spring break travel weeks in the region as many of the universities are on spring break this week.
The other big weeks will be the last week or March and the first week of April as those are the weeks when many of the school districts are on spring break.
This brings a lot more infrequent travelers to the airport and thus longer security lines.

That said, just get pre-check and avoid the lines.
Both terminals are getting pretty lengthy. I can see it with spring break but in general the lines are getting longer, I began to really notice it at the end of last summer. I try not to travel peak days because that’s when flights are either cheapest or less full. It’s good to see it though because it means travelers are beginning to chose their local airport over competing airports.

On a second note, I believe Allegiant could do DTW Zane coexist with FNT and TOL. DTW would carry SAV, VPS, JAX, and SRQ routes while FNT and TOL do the typical MYR, SFB, PIE, PGD, FLL services.



While I agree that Allegiant can compete in the Detroit market I think DET is better suited for them. Gives them a whole different passenger base and the people who are likely to use Allegiant all live in close proximity to DET. The city of Detroit proper, Warren , Eastpointe, Roseville and the like where household incomes is lower and those people need to have cheap airfares to make traveling by air possible.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
beerbus
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:37 pm

klm617 wrote:
There is a lot of lost revenue out there for the airport because there is no carrier that flies internationally out of Detroit that caters to the budget minded traveler and that deficiency needs to be addressed.


What kind of revenue I ask?

Please don't equate "lost revenue" as opportunity, or with profitability.

They are vastly different.

Airlines use a concept called "spill".

Spill is revenue that is lost when a class of service is sold out in a specific market or flight, causing the traffic to go elsewhere.

For example: DTW AMS flights in C class are all sold-out, with a wait list for C seats. If those wait listed passengers don't get on the flight- that's lost revenue. There was more demand than capacity for C class in this example. The lost passenger/revenue is considered "spill".

Spill can sometimes be a good thing- If the spill is in a desirable fare class- it's good. Route planning would investigate how to add more seats to the market. Or yield management would reduce inventory in the low-yield bucket, increasing the RASM on that flight, via an increase in higher yielding last minute traffic.

If it's low-yield traffic- who cares if those folks drive to YVR from DTW? The passengers who flew from DTW obviously generated a higher RASM. That's a good thing if you right-size capacity.

It goes back to the NW/DL use of 747's from DTW to Asia. We had too many seats in the market, because that was the only plane at one time that could reach Asia N/S. We didn't spill much high-yield coach traffic because we had too many seats in the market due to a lack of 777 sized A/C

To fill the 744 we we had a lot of "ethnic" traffic. Folks who bought tickets at high unpublished discounts to return back to their homelands for a holiday. This traffic covered some of the variable operating cost of the flight, but it certainly didn't provide a sustainable long-term return on capital. (you know- the $300,000,000 cost of a new wide body A/C)

So in my opinion- customers driving to YYZ to catch a TATL or TPAC is a sign of a well managed, profitable base of operations from DTW. Why chase bad yields eh?

Are you suggesting that carriers chase/carry unprofitable traffic? That's what the folks who drive to YYZ represent. Low yields. No profits.

I have been through multiple pay-cuts, layoffs, and bankruptcies in the airline industry. Most of us in the industry are over that. So are investors who have lost BILLIONS of dollars.

I am not opposed to LCC's flying TATL from DTW.

On the other hand- there has been little long-term success of carrierss specializing in LCC TATL traffic. LCC customers are generally less loyal- they fly based on price.

When you compete on price- you eventually enter a downward race to the bottom, which has historically led the BK's, RIF's, etc that have haunted the industry. And it's hard to generate a return on the capital needed to operate an aircraft capable of flying TATL, when you are trying to attract customers who drive from DTW to YZZ to save a buck. It might work for short haul, but I am dubious about the long-term sustainability of that model.

So again I say- let em' drive to YZZ!
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:05 pm

WN has been running a few 1-stop no plane change flights from DTW-RSW, MSY, and HOU lately. I think these are the next 3 markets WN would tackle out of DTW with a Saturday seasonal RSW in the likes of MCO and TPA, while HOU would be daily and MSY would be Saturday only in the summer months.
Resort, and other ground transportation options are on level 1.

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klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:53 pm

beerbus wrote:
klm617 wrote:
There is a lot of lost revenue out there for the airport because there is no carrier that flies internationally out of Detroit that caters to the budget minded traveler and that deficiency needs to be addressed.


What kind of revenue I ask?

Please don't equate "lost revenue" as opportunity, or with profitability.

They are vastly different.

Airlines use a concept called "spill".

Spill is revenue that is lost when a class of service is sold out in a specific market or flight, causing the traffic to go elsewhere.

For example: DTW AMS flights in C class are all sold-out, with a wait list for C seats. If those wait listed passengers don't get on the flight- that's lost revenue. There was more demand than capacity for C class in this example. The lost passenger/revenue is considered "spill".

Spill can sometimes be a good thing- If the spill is in a desirable fare class- it's good. Route planning would investigate how to add more seats to the market. Or yield management would reduce inventory in the low-yield bucket, increasing the RASM on that flight, via an increase in higher yielding last minute traffic.

If it's low-yield traffic- who cares if those folks drive to YVR from DTW? The passengers who flew from DTW obviously generated a higher RASM. That's a good thing if you right-size capacity.

It goes back to the NW/DL use of 747's from DTW to Asia. We had too many seats in the market, because that was the only plane at one time that could reach Asia N/S. We didn't spill much high-yield coach traffic because we had too many seats in the market due to a lack of 777 sized A/C

To fill the 744 we we had a lot of "ethnic" traffic. Folks who bought tickets at high unpublished discounts to return back to their homelands for a holiday. This traffic covered some of the variable operating cost of the flight, but it certainly didn't provide a sustainable long-term return on capital. (you know- the $300,000,000 cost of a new wide body A/C)

So in my opinion- customers driving to YYZ to catch a TATL or TPAC is a sign of a well managed, profitable base of operations from DTW. Why chase bad yields eh?

Are you suggesting that carriers chase/carry unprofitable traffic? That's what the folks who drive to YYZ represent. Low yields. No profits.

I have been through multiple pay-cuts, layoffs, and bankruptcies in the airline industry. Most of us in the industry are over that. So are investors who have lost BILLIONS of dollars.

I am not opposed to LCC's flying TATL from DTW.

On the other hand- there has been little long-term success of carrierss specializing in LCC TATL traffic. LCC customers are generally less loyal- they fly based on price.

When you compete on price- you eventually enter a downward race to the bottom, which has historically led the BK's, RIF's, etc that have haunted the industry. And it's hard to generate a return on the capital needed to operate an aircraft capable of flying TATL, when you are trying to attract customers who drive from DTW to YZZ to save a buck. It might work for short haul, but I am dubious about the long-term sustainability of that model.

So again I say- let em' drive to YZZ!


First of all why should I have to drive 4 hours to another airport to save $400 when this airport could attract the same type of service if it put it's best foot forward and market the airport effectively . I'm not suggesting the Delta compete for this market because that's not their business model and I get that. It's a market for a new entrant such as WOW Air, Icelandair , Aer Lingus and Norwegian. Why should the airport lose landing fees and pfc charges to another airport when they could bring those passenger back to using DTW by landing one or two of these carriers. I understand you work in the airline industry and see it from that perspective but that isn't the only perspective there is. What about the customer who can't afford to pay out $1500 for a family of four to go back home to visit do you really think that basically giving them the middle finger and telling them to drive 200 miles to the next nearest airport that they can afford to fly from is a good stance to take when they are options that could be brought into the airport to serve this cross section of the traveling public. Again QR, EI and DY have all called out Detroit as some where they want to fly to yet this airport can't make it happen.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:57 pm

beerbus wrote:
klm617 wrote:
There is a lot of lost revenue out there for the airport because there is no carrier that flies internationally out of Detroit that caters to the budget minded traveler and that deficiency needs to be addressed.


What kind of revenue I ask?

Please don't equate "lost revenue" as opportunity, or with profitability.

They are vastly different.

Airlines use a concept called "spill".

Spill is revenue that is lost when a class of service is sold out in a specific market or flight, causing the traffic to go elsewhere.

For example: DTW AMS flights in C class are all sold-out, with a wait list for C seats. If those wait listed passengers don't get on the flight- that's lost revenue. There was more demand than capacity for C class in this example. The lost passenger/revenue is considered "spill".

Spill can sometimes be a good thing- If the spill is in a desirable fare class- it's good. Route planning would investigate how to add more seats to the market. Or yield management would reduce inventory in the low-yield bucket, increasing the RASM on that flight, via an increase in higher yielding last minute traffic.

If it's low-yield traffic- who cares if those folks drive to YVR from DTW? The passengers who flew from DTW obviously generated a higher RASM. That's a good thing if you right-size capacity.

It goes back to the NW/DL use of 747's from DTW to Asia. We had too many seats in the market, because that was the only plane at one time that could reach Asia N/S. We didn't spill much high-yield coach traffic because we had too many seats in the market due to a lack of 777 sized A/C

To fill the 744 we we had a lot of "ethnic" traffic. Folks who bought tickets at high unpublished discounts to return back to their homelands for a holiday. This traffic covered some of the variable operating cost of the flight, but it certainly didn't provide a sustainable long-term return on capital. (you know- the $300,000,000 cost of a new wide body A/C)

So in my opinion- customers driving to YYZ to catch a TATL or TPAC is a sign of a well managed, profitable base of operations from DTW. Why chase bad yields eh?

Are you suggesting that carriers chase/carry unprofitable traffic? That's what the folks who drive to YYZ represent. Low yields. No profits.

I have been through multiple pay-cuts, layoffs, and bankruptcies in the airline industry. Most of us in the industry are over that. So are investors who have lost BILLIONS of dollars.

I am not opposed to LCC's flying TATL from DTW.

On the other hand- there has been little long-term success of carrierss specializing in LCC TATL traffic. LCC customers are generally less loyal- they fly based on price.

When you compete on price- you eventually enter a downward race to the bottom, which has historically led the BK's, RIF's, etc that have haunted the industry. And it's hard to generate a return on the capital needed to operate an aircraft capable of flying TATL, when you are trying to attract customers who drive from DTW to YZZ to save a buck. It might work for short haul, but I am dubious about the long-term sustainability of that model.

So again I say- let em' drive to YZZ!



Also if that low yield traffic can make money for somebody out of YYZ then it can make money out of DTW too.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:21 am

flymco753 wrote:
WN has been running a few 1-stop no plane change flights from DTW-RSW, MSY, and HOU lately. I think these are the next 3 markets WN would tackle out of DTW with a Saturday seasonal RSW in the likes of MCO and TPA, while HOU would be daily and MSY would be Saturday only in the summer months.


WN isn't going to grow in DTW, for reasons we've discussed before (business travelers shun it, leisure traffic has cheaper options):
- DTW is one of WN's smallest stations, despite being in the market for three decades;
- DTW has been stagnant in terms of number of flights and physical number of seats for years... in fact, WN offers fewer seats in the market today than WN-FL did combined 10 years ago. Thankfully, they're filling more of these seats.
- WN has kept the number of flights the same through the years, but changed the destination mix (e.g. dropping an MDW for DAL, dropping a PHX for LAS, etc.). Alas, there's no more low hanging fruit...MCO is the most logical add, but don't get excited -- no way WN's going to go against 3-4 NK flights in the market.

and most telling...
- WN had a banner year last year in ASM, RPM, total flights, total passengers, etc. And yet DTW fell short of 2016 in all these metrics -- the ONLY station to do so (besides a few of the ex-FL small ones).

DL and its subcontractors, BTW, carried fewer passengers in 2017 than they did in 2016 (nearly one point drop). DTW's 1% growth was driven by NK...
If you are an American who drives an auto built by a foreign-owned company yet complains about your favorite airline buying Airbus, then you are nothing more than a whiny hypocrite.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:34 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Security lines are getting progressively worse at DTW, my last flight out of the North Terminal was probably the worst with over an hour wait, good thing I like getting to my flights extra early. If I had a critical suggestion for the web developers of the WCAA is to make real time security wait times, do y'all agree? I also think the website in general needs some work. Personally would like to see updated terminal maps, new service announcement tabs and an airport FIDS section.

Haven't noticed that much a difference than normal in McNamera but I'm usually not traveling out during peak times.
North Terminal tends to have much longer security lines since outbound flights are heavily concentrated into two periods throughout the day - early morning between 5:30am-8am and late-afternoon/early evening from 5pm-7pm. Outside of of those times, the outbound traffic is significantly less and/or less concentrated. The O&D focus of the North Terminal means it get slammed with departing passengers in the early morning.

That said, not surprised security lines are longer as this week is one of the peak spring break travel weeks in the region as many of the universities are on spring break this week.
The other big weeks will be the last week or March and the first week of April as those are the weeks when many of the school districts are on spring break.
This brings a lot more infrequent travelers to the airport and thus longer security lines.

That said, just get pre-check and avoid the lines.


Yeah, I travel through the North Terminal a few times a year, and the lines are usually pretty average. Being that it is Spring Break for a lot of colleges in the area, that is probably the reason for the abnormally long lines.
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2Holer4Longhaul
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:13 pm

klm617 wrote:
beerbus wrote:
klm617 wrote:
There is a lot of lost revenue out there for the airport because there is no carrier that flies internationally out of Detroit that caters to the budget minded traveler and that deficiency needs to be addressed.


What kind of revenue I ask?

Please don't equate "lost revenue" as opportunity, or with profitability.

They are vastly different.

Airlines use a concept called "spill".

Spill is revenue that is lost when a class of service is sold out in a specific market or flight, causing the traffic to go elsewhere.

For example: DTW AMS flights in C class are all sold-out, with a wait list for C seats. If those wait listed passengers don't get on the flight- that's lost revenue. There was more demand than capacity for C class in this example. The lost passenger/revenue is considered "spill".

Spill can sometimes be a good thing- If the spill is in a desirable fare class- it's good. Route planning would investigate how to add more seats to the market. Or yield management would reduce inventory in the low-yield bucket, increasing the RASM on that flight, via an increase in higher yielding last minute traffic.

If it's low-yield traffic- who cares if those folks drive to YVR from DTW? The passengers who flew from DTW obviously generated a higher RASM. That's a good thing if you right-size capacity.

It goes back to the NW/DL use of 747's from DTW to Asia. We had too many seats in the market, because that was the only plane at one time that could reach Asia N/S. We didn't spill much high-yield coach traffic because we had too many seats in the market due to a lack of 777 sized A/C

To fill the 744 we we had a lot of "ethnic" traffic. Folks who bought tickets at high unpublished discounts to return back to their homelands for a holiday. This traffic covered some of the variable operating cost of the flight, but it certainly didn't provide a sustainable long-term return on capital. (you know- the $300,000,000 cost of a new wide body A/C)

So in my opinion- customers driving to YYZ to catch a TATL or TPAC is a sign of a well managed, profitable base of operations from DTW. Why chase bad yields eh?

Are you suggesting that carriers chase/carry unprofitable traffic? That's what the folks who drive to YYZ represent. Low yields. No profits.

I have been through multiple pay-cuts, layoffs, and bankruptcies in the airline industry. Most of us in the industry are over that. So are investors who have lost BILLIONS of dollars.

I am not opposed to LCC's flying TATL from DTW.

On the other hand- there has been little long-term success of carrierss specializing in LCC TATL traffic. LCC customers are generally less loyal- they fly based on price.

When you compete on price- you eventually enter a downward race to the bottom, which has historically led the BK's, RIF's, etc that have haunted the industry. And it's hard to generate a return on the capital needed to operate an aircraft capable of flying TATL, when you are trying to attract customers who drive from DTW to YZZ to save a buck. It might work for short haul, but I am dubious about the long-term sustainability of that model.

So again I say- let em' drive to YZZ!



Also if that low yield traffic can make money for somebody out of YYZ then it can make money out of DTW too.

They wouldn't.
The fact is that by setting capacity a little lower and prices a little higher, airlines often can make more money.
Would you, as an airline trying to make money, rather sell 200 seats at $700 apiece, 250 seats at $600 apiece, or 300 seats at $400 apiece?
Answer: 250 seats, $600 each, for a cool $150000 in revenue.
If you had sold the extra 50 seats, you would've had to lower the price, and end up warning $120000 instead. You got more pax, but you made $30000 less. That's called a bad business decision.
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rvnagesh50
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:51 pm

Used to LOVE those old Northwest 747's.Would land @ JFK and have a booking for later connection to DTW. Would make it to the check in, and there would be seats on an earlier 747 and they would put me and my family in them, as there were so many available seats.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:56 pm

With some data that I have about domestic premiums, the reason that DTW-GRR is on a 757 is because (not limited to frame rotation and stage lengths) of premium paying passengers. The trend I’m looking at is that GRR premiums fly out on the first flight and back on the last, in this case the 757 leaves DTW the night before and comes back in the morning.
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2Holer4Longhaul
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:31 pm

flymco753 wrote:
With some data that I have about domestic premiums, the reason that DTW-GRR is on a 757 is because (not limited to frame rotation and stage lengths) of premium paying passengers. The trend I’m looking at is that GRR premiums fly out on the first flight and back on the last, in this case the 757 leaves DTW the night before and comes back in the morning.

You've failed to consider something: that's a RON in GRR, which could just be saving DL some fees.
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:10 pm

2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
With some data that I have about domestic premiums, the reason that DTW-GRR is on a 757 is because (not limited to frame rotation and stage lengths) of premium paying passengers. The trend I’m looking at is that GRR premiums fly out on the first flight and back on the last, in this case the 757 leaves DTW the night before and comes back in the morning.

You've failed to consider something: that's a RON in GRR, which could just be saving DL some fees.
That's probably another reason why the 757 works on DTW-GRR, like it does on MSP-MKE and MSN.
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:05 pm

flymco753 wrote:
With some data that I have about domestic premiums, the reason that DTW-GRR is on a 757 is because (not limited to frame rotation and stage lengths) of premium paying passengers. The trend I’m looking at is that GRR premiums fly out on the first flight and back on the last, in this case the 757 leaves DTW the night before and comes back in the morning.

Nothing really unique to the GRR market that isn't applicable to other outstations where DL has a good market presence.
More passenger want to travel in the mornings or evenings. Morning departures are full of both business and leisure travelers starting their journey, and same with evening flights with people arriving at their destination/back home. These flights connect to/from the large respective departure banks.

DL did this alot in years past in ATL with upgauging the last flight out to mainline into smaller markets, as well as restored some in DTW in recent years too. This also helps collect IRROP/misconnect passengers throughout the day as well.

There is a portion of it that is related to aircraft/crew rotations and that flight that is a 752 to GRR could just as easily be a 738/739, or A320/A321 if that was what was available.
The reality is the core of B752 flying out of DTW is to from West Coast, Florida, and hubs. They more or less using a 752 that arrives from one of those destinations into the 7-9pm arrival banks, sending it up to GRR and it gets back into DTW in time to go out on the big morning departure bank around 8:30-9am.
 
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Mar 11, 2018 3:43 pm

That's absolutely true, DL is sending larger aircraft into some nice markets from DTW to RON and swing back early, which is a great idea. The 10pm bank has grown to look a little like Northwest's always did. That said though GRR is unique, it's always had an affluent base, and a lot of large group action, ie hockey teams, school groups, even families with 20 or more on the same flight. I saw this first hand a lot. They are almost always headed to MCO/TPA/RSW/FLL.

Side note: very interesting that D8 now publically stated their intent to serve DTW, where as everyone had written them off due to some other verbiage a year ago. Would be great to see QR/EI/D8 set launch dates in 2018 and I could see it happening now. What are Level's future U.S. plans, they always struck me as a possibility for DTW market as well.
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Mar 11, 2018 3:58 pm

DI is going to have a hard time getting that A321LR in the configuration they want from LGW-DTW. They’ll most likely have to make a fuel stop if the flight is full since it would also be extremely payload optimized. If DI laid the cabin out like Primera, they probably wouldn’t have an issue with having to make a stop.

I think EI is on deck once they get the delivery date for their A321LRs, DL to follow with 75W service as a reaction.

No ME3 airline will fly to DTW for a while, the only viable aircraft for service to the Middle East right now is the 787-8, everything else is too much plane.
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NWADTWE16
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:09 pm

Some of you are likely better at this than I, but I see the flight distance DTW-LGW at 3787 miles, and the max range 4000 miles for the a321LR. Seems it could do it no problem. I will say any flight with a stop, except RJ would not succeed IMO
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TryToFlySomeday
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:45 pm

NWADTWE16 wrote:
That's absolutely true, DL is sending larger aircraft into some nice markets from DTW to RON and swing back early, which is a great idea. The 10pm bank has grown to look a little like Northwest's always did. That said though GRR is unique, it's always had an affluent base, and a lot of large group action, ie hockey teams, school groups, even families with 20 or more on the same flight. I saw this first hand a lot. They are almost always headed to MCO/TPA/RSW/FLL.

Side note: very interesting that D8 now publically stated their intent to serve DTW, where as everyone had written them off due to some other verbiage a year ago. Would be great to see QR/EI/D8 set launch dates in 2018 and I could see it happening now. What are Level's future U.S. plans, they always struck me as a possibility for DTW market as well.
I’d rather see RJ go nonstop to AMM allyrar round, or see TK come to DTW from IST new airport
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NWADTWE16
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:58 pm

RJ is in a worse cash situation, than the others, but they certainly have built a following thru many years. Not sure their office is still open in Dearborn though, of course that might not have anything to do with anything.
I agree I'd like them to up their game, but QR or even EK are more likely, and there's indian traffic to be had for sure. TK would be a great add to, I am with you there.
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Atlwarrior
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:45 pm

jordanh wrote:
klm617 wrote:
. STR is a great example of this DTW-STR is just as sustainable as ATL-STR but being there isn't enough flow to sustain two flights at STR ATL is chosen over DTW even though STR-DTW would work just as well as ATL-STR.


Based on... what evidence?

Perhaps you have never heard of little "Mercedes Benz"; based in Stuttgart, and running its American headquarters in Atlanta. There is also another obscure car company named "Porsche"; it is a Stuttgart auto manufacturer whose U.S. headquarters is - can get it in three guesses? - in Atlanta. Can you name one company based in Stuttgart who selected Detroit for its local headquarters - and make DTW "just as sustainable at ATL-STR"?

If you don't think those corporate contracts amount to millions of dollars a year... I have some swampland in Florida to sell you... :roll:


Not true! While the headquarters moved to Atlanta,the top thinker was a Northwest executive, so that dismissing your ATL focus only theory. In fact the airline focus more on JFK for European expansion. Furthermore Delta had a huge European expansion from ATL in 2005. A lot of routes were cut and routed through Paris and Amsterdam.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:27 pm

NWADTWE16 wrote:
That's absolutely true, DL is sending larger aircraft into some nice markets from DTW to RON and swing back early, which is a great idea. The 10pm bank has grown to look a little like Northwest's always did. That said though GRR is unique, it's always had an affluent base, and a lot of large group action, ie hockey teams, school groups, even families with 20 or more on the same flight. I saw this first hand a lot. They are almost always headed to MCO/TPA/RSW/FLL.

Side note: very interesting that D8 now publically stated their intent to serve DTW, where as everyone had written them off due to some other verbiage a year ago. Would be great to see QR/EI/D8 set launch dates in 2018 and I could see it happening now. What are Level's future U.S. plans, they always struck me as a possibility for DTW market as well.



Well it rests on the shoulders of the airport to make this happen. There is no reason at all why EI or D8 should not be in this market in 2019. EI is basically a domestic flight with DUB preclearance and 3 or 4 weekly from DTW to LGW should work with ease on a A321. We already know that the growth in this market is not coming from Delta so it's time to diversify and these two flights aren't even the market Delta cares about so there's no direct competition . QR or any ME3 is pretty much out of the picture the WCAA missed their chance to land QR and now sadly the time has passed.
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NWADTWE16
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:48 pm

Perhaps the carriers themselves will just come, I'm referring to 1 of the ME3 or TK here, without the assistance of the agreeably pathetic airport authority.

Anyone have numbers on B6 & F9 service the past year or whatever is posted for this year, I am curious, or perhaps direct me where to look and I will post here. I'd like to see RJ's numbers as well.

I think Islip is going to be a winner for F9, much to many peoples surprise TTN has been, and ISP is more well known. Nice cheap back door to NYC and not to mention the Hamptons.
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