compensateme wrote:

Again, how are they different? DL doesn't make money by opening BNA-SEA-Asia instead of routing the traffic BNA-SEA-Asia nor are they creating 150 new passengers. They make money & fill seats primarily with persons who flew other airlines. Likewise, the crux of EK's traffic -- whether it's to ORD, MCO or DTW -- is/would be comprised of traffic that previously took other airlines.

compensateme wrote:

Alphazone wrote:

Anyway the reason is because it's not an equal comparison. At SEA DL expands the network offerings for international connecting pax.

It is an equal comparison. Common sense should dictate DL's not expanding SEA for "network offerings for international connecting pax" - since the initial SEA transpacific buildup five years ago, DL's cut t-pac capacity while adding more than 100 domestic flights to a few dozen destinations. As with LAX & LGA/JFK, DL is taking advantage of its flush position to grow revenues, primarily by building market share at the expense of its competitors In other words... it's not all "new" traffic.

At DTW there is no appeal for ME3 carrier because, like I wrote, both business and VFR traffic to Middle East, India and surrounding areas is loyal to Star via FRA or Skyteam CDG and AMS, and bottom-barrel fare VFR traffic bleeds anyway to other ports of exit,

Do you have any proof the market is loyal to those alliances? I highly doubt it; rather, they use the services that exist.

never mind the average facility at North Terminal.

This demonstrates that either you've never been to many airports (including the North Terminal), or you really don't know what you're talking about. Compared to other domestic airports, North is well above average and yields an excellent "big" airport experience. Lounges aren't designed, built or operated by the airport, but rather the airline (via subcontractors) itself. Or are you saying North isn't as dumpy as ORD T5 or BOS E, and EK only flies to dumps?

If you think that EK would send 777 with F cabin to Detroit, then you are mistaken. The offerings are already more than enough.

Nah, that's just your assumption. DTW would have to be on EK's list, simply because EK is projecting large North American growth and DTW is one of the few communities with the traffic to warrant such service. The bigger questions would be (1) how much will EK grow in North America and (2) does EK think it could develop sufficient traffic and revenue to warrant DTW. But of course, this is a.net, so facts don't matter and the forums will declare CLT, DEN & PHX as the most logical destinations (no matter how illogical it seems).

Alphazone wrote:

compensateme wrote:

Again, how are they different? DL doesn't make money by opening BNA-SEA-Asia instead of routing the traffic BNA-SEA-Asia nor are they creating 150 new passengers. They make money & fill seats primarily with persons who flew other airlines. Likewise, the crux of EK's traffic -- whether it's to ORD, MCO or DTW -- is/would be comprised of traffic that previously took other airlines.

No my friend, DL certainly collects connections at SEA, much more than EK could at DTW via AS codeshare. You just chose a bad example of SEA.

Your DTW's Indian doctor is a DM and collects DL miles.

Alphazone wrote:

No my friend, DL certainly collects connections at SEA, much more than EK could at DTW via AS codeshare. You just chose a bad example of SEA.

Your DTW's Indian doctor is a DM and collects DL miles.

compensateme wrote:

klm617 wrote:

compensateme wrote:

Most of them aren't and common sense would dedicate that EK poaches FF loyalists, since it's not a partner with the US3. I'm loyal to my preferred programs, but if DL & EK were both priced at $4K in Business to my destination... I ain't going with DL.

Alphazone wrote:

This doesn't make sense because it runs contrary to the logic of loyalty programs.

On every DL flight of mine, there are Medallions on the upgrade list, so it seems many consumers don't think like you.

compensateme wrote:

Alphazone wrote:

This doesn't make sense because it runs contrary to the logic of loyalty programs.

On every DL flight of mine, there are Medallions on the upgrade list, so it seems many consumers don't think like you.

Honestly, I don't understand your logic. If you think that every single DM never flies anybody but DL or its partners, you are sorely mistaken. Having DM status merely suggests that the bulk of your flying is with DL...

Alphazone wrote:

compensateme wrote:

Most of them aren't and common sense would dedicate that EK poaches FF loyalists, since it's not a partner with the US3. I'm loyal to my preferred programs, but if DL & EK were both priced at $4K in Business to my destination... I ain't going with DL.

This doesn't make sense because it runs contrary to the logic of loyalty programs.

On every DL flight of mine, there are Medallions on the upgrade list, so it seems many consumers don't think like you.

compensateme wrote:

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

I noticed AF378 was cancelled Wednesday night. Is it a 787 fleet issue or one of their myriad of labor/industrial actions.

flymco753 wrote:

Delta piles more A321’s into DTW. In June they will be flying to ATL, MSP, MCO, RSW, FLL, PHX, and SAN. Meanwhile, 737’s are becoming less and MD-90s are taking a storm. There will be quite a few 757s to go around too since they’ll be going to MEX, CUN, BOS, ATL, MCO, FLL, MSP, LAX, SFO, and SEA.

flymco753 wrote:

Delta piles more A321’s into DTW. In June they will be flying to ATL, MSP, MCO, RSW, FLL, PHX, and SAN. Meanwhile, 737’s are becoming less and MD-90s are taking a storm. There will be quite a few 757s to go around too since they’ll be going to MEX, CUN, BOS, ATL, MCO, FLL, MSP, LAX, SFO, and SEA.

SumChristianus wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

Delta piles more A321’s into DTW. In June they will be flying to ATL, MSP, MCO, RSW, FLL, PHX, and SAN. Meanwhile, 737’s are becoming less and MD-90s are taking a storm. There will be quite a few 757s to go around too since they’ll be going to MEX, CUN, BOS, ATL, MCO, FLL, MSP, LAX, SFO, and SEA.

DTW growth and on DL, isn't that positive?

flymco753 wrote:

Delta piles more A321’s into DTW. In June they will be flying to ATL, MSP, MCO, RSW, FLL, PHX, and SAN. Meanwhile, 737’s are becoming less and MD-90s are taking a storm. There will be quite a few 757s to go around too since they’ll be going to MEX, CUN, BOS, ATL, MCO, FLL, MSP, LAX, SFO, and SEA.

SumChristianus wrote:

DTW growth and on DL, isn't that positive?

klm617 wrote:

Don't get confused it's not an increase in seats just different equipment those seats are coming from some where and I'd guess that that somewhere is frequency reduction. We still don't have a domestic wife body when every other hub has them.

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

- BDL, PHL, RDU going all-mainline this summer; in previously summers would still have 1-2 2-class RJs (BDL is all-MD90)

compensateme wrote:

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

- BDL, PHL, RDU going all-mainline this summer; in previously summers would still have 1-2 2-class RJs (BDL is all-MD90)

ORD is also all-mainline during the peak summer stretch; generally, the route is flown with a mixture of CR7/CR9, with a mainline flight or two during this time period.

Also worth nothing 757 service returns to DTW/IND.

winginit wrote:

SumChristianus wrote:

DTW growth and on DL, isn't that positive?

Indeed.

klm617 wrote:

Don't get confused it's not an increase in seats just different equipment those seats are coming from some where and I'd guess that that somewhere is frequency reduction. We still don't have a domestic wife body when every other hub has them.

Wrong. For 3Q 2018 vs. 3Q 2017, Delta will see a seat increase of 1.1% YoY and an ASM increase of 2.7%

Delta DTW Capacity: Domestic and International including Regional Affiliates:

3Q 2017: 8,110,754 Seats, 9.17B ASMs
3Q 2018: 8,199,805 Seats, 9.42B ASMs

Notable YoY capacity growth coming from AMS and LAX

klm617 wrote:

1.1% is nothing

klm617 wrote:

Don't get confused it's not an increase in seats

klm617 wrote:

. I myself refuse to use any carrier that doesn't serve Detroit if you don't have enough faith to serve this market then you don't get my business and I'm not going to artificially inflate then numbers at another airport because doing that will never bring the service to Detroit. I'm a reasonable person so before you say things like Qantas and Air New Zealand I understand those carriers will never serve Detroit but when we talk about airlines like EI,DY,BA,FI,EK,QR or TK that Detroit is a viable option for them I will NEVER fly them unless they have a route to Detroit.

adamh8297 wrote:

Route planners don't care about these "artificially inflated numbers" aka total airport pax count at ORD,BOS,YYZ, JFK etc and anyone else who "steals" DTW precious traffic- they care about O+D so you are cutting off your nose to spite your face not flying B6 and their partners from DTW.

adamh8297 wrote:

klm617 wrote:

. I myself refuse to use any carrier that doesn't serve Detroit if you don't have enough faith to serve this market then you don't get my business and I'm not going to artificially inflate then numbers at another airport because doing that will never bring the service to Detroit. I'm a reasonable person so before you say things like Qantas and Air New Zealand I understand those carriers will never serve Detroit but when we talk about airlines like EI,DY,BA,FI,EK,QR or TK that Detroit is a viable option for them I will NEVER fly them unless they have a route to Detroit.

It worked for the people flying B6/EK interline MCO/FLL-BOS/JFK-DXB-XXX. MCO and FLL see EK tails last time I checked.

Route planners don't care about these "artificially inflated numbers" aka total airport pax count at ORD,BOS,YYZ, JFK etc and anyone else who "steals" DTW precious traffic- they care about O+D so you are cutting off your nose to spite your face not flying B6 and their partners from DTW.

klm617 wrote:

adamh8297 wrote:

klm617 wrote:

. I myself refuse to use any carrier that doesn't serve Detroit if you don't have enough faith to serve this market then you don't get my business and I'm not going to artificially inflate then numbers at another airport because doing that will never bring the service to Detroit. I'm a reasonable person so before you say things like Qantas and Air New Zealand I understand those carriers will never serve Detroit but when we talk about airlines like EI,DY,BA,FI,EK,QR or TK that Detroit is a viable option for them I will NEVER fly them unless they have a route to Detroit.

It worked for the people flying B6/EK interline MCO/FLL-BOS/JFK-DXB-XXX. MCO and FLL see EK tails last time I checked.

Route planners don't care about these "artificially inflated numbers" aka total airport pax count at ORD,BOS,YYZ, JFK etc and anyone else who "steals" DTW precious traffic- they care about O+D so you are cutting off your nose to spite your face not flying B6 and their partners from DTW.

FLL and MCO are both B6 focus cities so EK gets feed at both airports DTW has no EK feed it passenger would all have to be Detroit originating passengers. What I'm saying is if I'm flying DTW-BOM, DEL, KEF, WAW or the like I'm not driving to ORD or using B6 to BOS.

klm617 wrote:

SumChristianus wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

Delta piles more A321’s into DTW. In June they will be flying to ATL, MSP, MCO, RSW, FLL, PHX, and SAN. Meanwhile, 737’s are becoming less and MD-90s are taking a storm. There will be quite a few 757s to go around too since they’ll be going to MEX, CUN, BOS, ATL, MCO, FLL, MSP, LAX, SFO, and SEA.

DTW growth and on DL, isn't that positive?

Don't get confused it's not an increase in seats just different equipment those seats are coming from some where and I'd guess that that somewhere is frequency reduction. We still don't have a domestic wife body when every other hub has them.

klm617 wrote:

Kind of interesting to note that the airports official website hasn't even listed WOW Air yet as one of the airlines serving Detroit. So if I'm flying WOW on Thursday and checking information about terminal location I can't even get that information. You would think that when an airports adds a new airlines to it's operations they would want to make it know but I guess that's not the case with the WCAA. It's going to be interesting to see how much fan fair the airport gives this new flight on Thursday.

adamh8297 wrote:

I don't blame you for not driving to ORD. I've never driven to JFK (I live in metro Boston) for a flight. I've connected everywhere and anywhere without prejudice though I would avoid connections between airports with winter weather issues as much as possible.

The feed isn't that great at either Florida and EK has gone on record they primarily want to feed B6 at JFK/BOS and AS at SEA for the other destinations they do not serve.

jetlanta wrote:

klm617 wrote:

SumChristianus wrote:

DTW growth and on DL, isn't that positive?

Don't get confused it's not an increase in seats just different equipment those seats are coming from some where and I'd guess that that somewhere is frequency reduction. We still don't have a domestic wife body when every other hub has them.

Virtually ALL of ATL's expansion in recent years (that you have complained INCESSANTLY about) has come from upgrades just like this. Now it is happening in DTW and it isn't good enough? Of course it isn't.

You are amazing.

compensateme wrote:

adamh8297 wrote:

I don't blame you for not driving to ORD. I've never driven to JFK (I live in metro Boston) for a flight. I've connected everywhere and anywhere without prejudice though I would avoid connections between airports with winter weather issues as much as possible.

The difference is, the drive from Metro Detroit to YYZ or ORD is easy, predictable and low stress (unless you're in Chicago during rush hour).

The feed isn't that great at either Florida and EK has gone on record they primarily want to feed B6 at JFK/BOS and AS at SEA for the other destinations they do not serve.

No, EK claims it's "temporarily" deferring its North American expansion plans, although international weariness/collateral damage of the current administration + general economic conditions could make it indefinite.

And while klm617 has turned DTW into the mockery of a.net, fact is, if EK resumes its planned North American expansion, DTW would have to be on its list, simply because it's one of the few communities that could support it. But of course, this is a.net and facts are meaningless; therefore DTW=bad, CLT=good and therefore CLT is a better candidate!

klm617 wrote:

jetlanta wrote:

klm617 wrote:

Don't get confused it's not an increase in seats just different equipment those seats are coming from some where and I'd guess that that somewhere is frequency reduction. We still don't have a domestic wife body when every other hub has them.

Virtually ALL of ATL's expansion in recent years (that you have complained INCESSANTLY about) has come from upgrades just like this. Now it is happening in DTW and it isn't good enough? Of course it isn't.

You are amazing.

Yes but with one major difference when Delta up gauged at ATL they didn't reduce frequency when the up gauged at Detroit they reduced frequency to keep the capacity nearly flat while continuing to add capacity at Atlanta with no frequency reduction.

jetlanta wrote:

klm617 wrote:

jetlanta wrote:

Virtually ALL of ATL's expansion in recent years (that you have complained INCESSANTLY about) has come from upgrades just like this. Now it is happening in DTW and it isn't good enough? Of course it isn't.

You are amazing.

Yes but with one major difference when Delta up gauged at ATL they didn't reduce frequency when the up gauged at Detroit they reduced frequency to keep the capacity nearly flat while continuing to add capacity at Atlanta with no frequency reduction.

There are plenty of markets from ATL that saw reduced frequency. Very few saw increased frequency. The same will be true for most DTW markets as this process begins in earnest there. We aren't talking about CRJ to mainline upgrades now. We are talking about M88s to 321s and such.

klm617 wrote:

DTW has no EK feed it passenger would all have to be Detroit originating passengers.

Alphazone wrote:

This is true now since AS canceled PDX-DTW.

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

I'm borrowing some data/stats that we discussed last year for discussion's sake:
From FSDan:
viewtopic.php?t=1363451#p19552123

Year-over-year changes in flying at DTW:

Summer 2012:
DTW

ER4: 16
CRJ: 262
CR7: 45
CR9: 44
E70: 1
E75: 17
D95: 8
319: 24
320: 31
M88: 23
M90: 4
738: 23
752: 25
753: 9
763: 6
764: 3
332: 2
333: 4
777: 3
77L: 1
744: 2

Total: 553


Summer 2014
ER4: 37
CR2: 172
CR7: 43
CR9: 45
E70: 1
E75: 11
717: 18
M88: 28
M90: 13
319: 39
320: 21
738: 10
739: 9
752: 19
753: 1
763: 8
764: 2
333: 4
772: 3
77L: 3
744: 2

Total departures: 489
Approx. seats: 47,097

Summer 2017
CR2: 130
CR7: 60
CR9: 70
E70: 2
E75: 12
717: 38
M88: 23
M90: 25
319: 19
320: 21
738: 5
739: 29
752: 12
753: 8
763: 3
332: 6
333: 3
744: 3

Total departures: 469
Approx. seats: 48,696


--

Reduction in 50 Seat Flying as of Summer 2017.
From FSDan:
viewtopic.php?t=1363451#p19549839

When you look at the percent reductions in 50-seat flying, it's significant:
DTW: 53% reduction
ATL: 56% reduction
MSP: 35% reduction
SLC: 26% reduction
LGA: 73% reduction
JFK: 56% reduction
CVG: 72% reduction

flymco753 wrote:

Let’s talk about WOW tomorrow

klm617 wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

Let’s talk about WOW tomorrow

I checked out the airport website and still no WOW Air listed there. Pretty sad really on the airport's part if it were me I would have put banners up all over the place welcoming WOW Air and making know to as many as possible that they were starting service tomorrow but then again shows the real commitment the airport has in attracting new business. Marketing is greatly lacking and the WCAA has shown us that once again.

flymco753 wrote:

klm617 wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

Let’s talk about WOW tomorrow

I checked out the airport website and still no WOW Air listed there. Pretty sad really on the airport's part if it were me I would have put banners up all over the place welcoming WOW Air and making know to as many as possible that they were starting service tomorrow but then again shows the real commitment the airport has in attracting new business. Marketing is greatly lacking and the WCAA has shown us that once again.

They've began working on a new website that has a beta running, they list WOW on here. Check it: https://beta.metroairport.com/

I also drove by the D Concourse before heading back to Orlando and they have signs and a ticket counter.

klm617 wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

klm617 wrote:

I checked out the airport website and still no WOW Air listed there. Pretty sad really on the airport's part if it were me I would have put banners up all over the place welcoming WOW Air and making know to as many as possible that they were starting service tomorrow but then again shows the real commitment the airport has in attracting new business. Marketing is greatly lacking and the WCAA has shown us that once again.

They've began working on a new website that has a beta running, they list WOW on here. Check it: https://beta.metroairport.com/

I also drove by the D Concourse before heading back to Orlando and they have signs and a ticket counter.

I looked under airlines and didn't see it listed on the new site either.

https://beta.metroairport.com/flights/airline-directory