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Alphazone
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:22 pm

compensateme wrote:
Again, how are they different? DL doesn't make money by opening BNA-SEA-Asia instead of routing the traffic BNA-SEA-Asia nor are they creating 150 new passengers. They make money & fill seats primarily with persons who flew other airlines. Likewise, the crux of EK's traffic -- whether it's to ORD, MCO or DTW -- is/would be comprised of traffic that previously took other airlines.


No my friend, DL certainly collects connections at SEA, much more than EK could at DTW via AS codeshare. You just chose a bad example of SEA.

Your DTW's Indian doctor is a DM and collects DL miles.
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CHI2DFW
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:22 pm

compensateme wrote:
Alphazone wrote:
Anyway the reason is because it's not an equal comparison. At SEA DL expands the network offerings for international connecting pax.


It is an equal comparison. Common sense should dictate DL's not expanding SEA for "network offerings for international connecting pax" - since the initial SEA transpacific buildup five years ago, DL's cut t-pac capacity while adding more than 100 domestic flights to a few dozen destinations. As with LAX & LGA/JFK, DL is taking advantage of its flush position to grow revenues, primarily by building market share at the expense of its competitors In other words... it's not all "new" traffic.

At DTW there is no appeal for ME3 carrier because, like I wrote, both business and VFR traffic to Middle East, India and surrounding areas is loyal to Star via FRA or Skyteam CDG and AMS, and bottom-barrel fare VFR traffic bleeds anyway to other ports of exit,


Do you have any proof the market is loyal to those alliances? I highly doubt it; rather, they use the services that exist.

never mind the average facility at North Terminal.


This demonstrates that either you've never been to many airports (including the North Terminal), or you really don't know what you're talking about. Compared to other domestic airports, North is well above average and yields an excellent "big" airport experience. Lounges aren't designed, built or operated by the airport, but rather the airline (via subcontractors) itself. Or are you saying North isn't as dumpy as ORD T5 or BOS E, and EK only flies to dumps?

If you think that EK would send 777 with F cabin to Detroit, then you are mistaken. The offerings are already more than enough.


Nah, that's just your assumption. DTW would have to be on EK's list, simply because EK is projecting large North American growth and DTW is one of the few communities with the traffic to warrant such service. The bigger questions would be (1) how much will EK grow in North America and (2) does EK think it could develop sufficient traffic and revenue to warrant DTW. But of course, this is a.net, so facts don't matter and the forums will declare CLT, DEN & PHX as the most logical destinations (no matter how illogical it seems).


You forgot AUS, BNA, and RDU! Not to mention all of the other cities WW / FI are in!
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:50 pm

Alphazone wrote:
compensateme wrote:
Again, how are they different? DL doesn't make money by opening BNA-SEA-Asia instead of routing the traffic BNA-SEA-Asia nor are they creating 150 new passengers. They make money & fill seats primarily with persons who flew other airlines. Likewise, the crux of EK's traffic -- whether it's to ORD, MCO or DTW -- is/would be comprised of traffic that previously took other airlines.


No my friend, DL certainly collects connections at SEA, much more than EK could at DTW via AS codeshare. You just chose a bad example of SEA.

Your DTW's Indian doctor is a DM and collects DL miles.



Get current my friend AS has no agreement anymore with DL.
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:53 pm

Alphazone wrote:
No my friend, DL certainly collects connections at SEA, much more than EK could at DTW via AS codeshare. You just chose a bad example of SEA.


Uh, you do realize the DL/AS relationship officially ended a year ago? Nor is DL building SEA for connections, but rather a share of the market -- which, again, the crux is coming from incumbent airlines.

Your DTW's Indian doctor is a DM and collects DL miles.


Most of them aren't and common sense would dedicate that EK poaches FF loyalists, since it's not a partner with the US3. I'm loyal to my preferred programs, but if DL & EK were both priced at $4K in Business to my destination... I ain't going with DL.
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Alphazone
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:54 pm

compensateme wrote:


klm617 wrote:


If you read what I wrote, you see I wrote EK-AS codeshare, not DL-AS codeshare.

"DL certainly collects connections at SEA, much more than EK could at DTW via AS codeshare."

If I had inserted a comma like this
"DL certainly collects connections at SEA, much more than EK could at DTW, via AS codeshare. "
then there would be cause for confusion...
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Alphazone
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:05 pm

compensateme wrote:
Most of them aren't and common sense would dedicate that EK poaches FF loyalists, since it's not a partner with the US3. I'm loyal to my preferred programs, but if DL & EK were both priced at $4K in Business to my destination... I ain't going with DL.


This doesn't make sense because it runs contrary to the logic of loyalty programs.

On every DL flight of mine, there are Medallions on the upgrade list, so it seems many consumers don't think like you.
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:09 pm

Alphazone wrote:
This doesn't make sense because it runs contrary to the logic of loyalty programs.

On every DL flight of mine, there are Medallions on the upgrade list, so it seems many consumers don't think like you.


Honestly, I don't understand your logic. If you think that every single DM never flies anybody but DL or its partners, you are sorely mistaken. Having DM status merely suggests that the bulk of your flying is with DL...
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Alphazone
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:20 am

compensateme wrote:
Alphazone wrote:
This doesn't make sense because it runs contrary to the logic of loyalty programs.

On every DL flight of mine, there are Medallions on the upgrade list, so it seems many consumers don't think like you.


Honestly, I don't understand your logic. If you think that every single DM never flies anybody but DL or its partners, you are sorely mistaken. Having DM status merely suggests that the bulk of your flying is with DL...


It takes a lot of time to accumulate that status. Anyway we should try to keep the thread on topic.
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klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:38 am

Alphazone wrote:
compensateme wrote:
Most of them aren't and common sense would dedicate that EK poaches FF loyalists, since it's not a partner with the US3. I'm loyal to my preferred programs, but if DL & EK were both priced at $4K in Business to my destination... I ain't going with DL.


This doesn't make sense because it runs contrary to the logic of loyalty programs.

On every DL flight of mine, there are Medallions on the upgrade list, so it seems many consumers don't think like you.


First of all it's not loyalty it's lack of options I am in the same boat. If I had more options in this market that give me better reliability and service I guarantee you I'd have no problem taking my loyalty to another carrier that provided the same or better service at a lower price. That being said if EK came into the market and offered fares at 25 to 30 percent less your friends would nit think twice about switching which carriers they would align their loyalty with. I myself refuse to use any carrier that doesn't serve Detroit if you don't have enough faith to serve this market then you don't get my business and I'm not going to artificially inflate then numbers at another airport because doing that will never bring the service to Detroit. I'm a reasonable person so before you say things like Qantas and Air New Zealand I understand those carriers will never serve Detroit but when we talk about airlines like EI,DY,BA,FI,EK,QR or TK that Detroit is a viable option for them I will NEVER fly them unless they have a route to Detroit.
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klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:50 am

Enplanements are down by 2% so far this year not a very good sign.
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Alphazone
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:18 am

compensateme wrote:

Please, check out what I got https://imgur.com/a/TAUJL6L
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hjulicher
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:35 am

Is AF 378 scheduled today, April 20 with a B744 from Wamos Air? Reg: EC-KXN?
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:48 am

I noticed AF378 was cancelled Wednesday night. Is it a 787 fleet issue or one of their myriad of labor/industrial actions.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:07 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
I noticed AF378 was cancelled Wednesday night. Is it a 787 fleet issue or one of their myriad of labor/industrial actions.
I guess you could say, the ongoing chaos (strikes) in France.
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:11 pm

Delta’s SJU flights come back next winter.
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klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:19 am

Governor Snyder is in England and Germany promoting travel and business ties between the two countries and Michigan. Could this be an indication of more London flights and DTW-MAN becoming a reality. Perhaps he is out there druming up business in advance of these new flights starting.
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:34 pm

Delta piles more A321’s into DTW. In June they will be flying to ATL, MSP, MCO, RSW, FLL, PHX, and SAN. Meanwhile, 737’s are becoming less and MD-90s are taking a storm. There will be quite a few 757s to go around too since they’ll be going to MEX, CUN, BOS, ATL, MCO, FLL, MSP, LAX, SFO, and SEA.
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klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:16 pm

flymco753 wrote:
Delta piles more A321’s into DTW. In June they will be flying to ATL, MSP, MCO, RSW, FLL, PHX, and SAN. Meanwhile, 737’s are becoming less and MD-90s are taking a storm. There will be quite a few 757s to go around too since they’ll be going to MEX, CUN, BOS, ATL, MCO, FLL, MSP, LAX, SFO, and SEA.



Good get those crappy 737s out of here they are nothing more than a CRJ with more seats.
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SumChristianus
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:20 pm

flymco753 wrote:
Delta piles more A321’s into DTW. In June they will be flying to ATL, MSP, MCO, RSW, FLL, PHX, and SAN. Meanwhile, 737’s are becoming less and MD-90s are taking a storm. There will be quite a few 757s to go around too since they’ll be going to MEX, CUN, BOS, ATL, MCO, FLL, MSP, LAX, SFO, and SEA.

DTW growth and on DL, isn't that positive?
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klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:08 pm

SumChristianus wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Delta piles more A321’s into DTW. In June they will be flying to ATL, MSP, MCO, RSW, FLL, PHX, and SAN. Meanwhile, 737’s are becoming less and MD-90s are taking a storm. There will be quite a few 757s to go around too since they’ll be going to MEX, CUN, BOS, ATL, MCO, FLL, MSP, LAX, SFO, and SEA.

DTW growth and on DL, isn't that positive?


Don't get confused it's not an increase in seats just different equipment those seats are coming from some where and I'd guess that that somewhere is frequency reduction. We still don't have a domestic wife body when every other hub has them.
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:06 pm

flymco753 wrote:
Delta piles more A321’s into DTW. In June they will be flying to ATL, MSP, MCO, RSW, FLL, PHX, and SAN. Meanwhile, 737’s are becoming less and MD-90s are taking a storm. There will be quite a few 757s to go around too since they’ll be going to MEX, CUN, BOS, ATL, MCO, FLL, MSP, LAX, SFO, and SEA.


Not quite. Most of those 321 are replaced with 739 for the peak summer schedule; this point, DL is interchanging between the 739, 757 and 321.

Not that big of a deal, really - the difference in comfort is marginal between the types.
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:03 pm

Its hard to look at the equipment changes in complete isolation, I know that FSDan typically does a pretty in-depth analysis for each of the legacies by hub by aircraft type that usually sheds some interesting analysis.

DL swings so much capacity seasonally, up to about a 20% increase in ASMs from winter to peak summer schedule, and basically runs capacity all-out/full-bore for about a 6-8 week peak summer schedule, its hard to keep track of all the seasonal adjustments upward.

That said, a few things that we discussed before in some of the prior weekly OAG threads are reflected in this summers schedule:
- BDL, PHL, RDU going all-mainline this summer; in previously summers would still have 1-2 2-class RJs (BDL is all-MD90)
- DL attempting to simply aircraft types / RON aircraft at outstations (not sure how much this is actually happening yet)
- MD88s starting to make their way back to ATL (I think this happens more after peak summer)
 
winginit
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:09 pm

SumChristianus wrote:
DTW growth and on DL, isn't that positive?


Indeed.

klm617 wrote:
Don't get confused it's not an increase in seats just different equipment those seats are coming from some where and I'd guess that that somewhere is frequency reduction. We still don't have a domestic wife body when every other hub has them.


Wrong. For 3Q 2018 vs. 3Q 2017, Delta will see a seat increase of 1.1% YoY and an ASM increase of 2.7%

Delta DTW Capacity: Domestic and International including Regional Affiliates:

3Q 2017: 8,110,754 Seats, 9.17B ASMs
3Q 2018: 8,199,805 Seats, 9.42B ASMs

Notable YoY capacity growth coming from AMS and LAX
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:31 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
- BDL, PHL, RDU going all-mainline this summer; in previously summers would still have 1-2 2-class RJs (BDL is all-MD90)


ORD is also all-mainline during the peak summer stretch; generally, the route is flown with a mixture of CR7/CR9, with a mainline flight or two during this time period.

Also worth nothing 757 service returns to DTW/IND.
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:54 pm

compensateme wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
- BDL, PHL, RDU going all-mainline this summer; in previously summers would still have 1-2 2-class RJs (BDL is all-MD90)


ORD is also all-mainline during the peak summer stretch; generally, the route is flown with a mixture of CR7/CR9, with a mainline flight or two during this time period.

Also worth nothing 757 service returns to DTW/IND.
321 on GRR-DTW too.
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klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:23 pm

winginit wrote:
SumChristianus wrote:
DTW growth and on DL, isn't that positive?


Indeed.

klm617 wrote:
Don't get confused it's not an increase in seats just different equipment those seats are coming from some where and I'd guess that that somewhere is frequency reduction. We still don't have a domestic wife body when every other hub has them.


Wrong. For 3Q 2018 vs. 3Q 2017, Delta will see a seat increase of 1.1% YoY and an ASM increase of 2.7%

Delta DTW Capacity: Domestic and International including Regional Affiliates:

3Q 2017: 8,110,754 Seats, 9.17B ASMs
3Q 2018: 8,199,805 Seats, 9.42B ASMs

Notable YoY capacity growth coming from AMS and LAX



1.1% is nothing at 450 daily flights that's just 5 flights a day. If it really is that much over an entire year. Delta enplanements were down from 2016 to 2017
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winginit
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:33 pm

klm617 wrote:
1.1% is nothing


What it is, you'll find, is an increase in seats, which is very much a contrast when compared to your previous statement. Let's recap that statement of yours shall we?

klm617 wrote:
Don't get confused it's not an increase in seats


Please provide the data that supports your claim that it is not in fact an increase in seats (good luck!)
 
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adamh8297
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:15 am

klm617 wrote:
. I myself refuse to use any carrier that doesn't serve Detroit if you don't have enough faith to serve this market then you don't get my business and I'm not going to artificially inflate then numbers at another airport because doing that will never bring the service to Detroit. I'm a reasonable person so before you say things like Qantas and Air New Zealand I understand those carriers will never serve Detroit but when we talk about airlines like EI,DY,BA,FI,EK,QR or TK that Detroit is a viable option for them I will NEVER fly them unless they have a route to Detroit.


It worked for the people flying B6/EK interline MCO/FLL-BOS/JFK-DXB-XXX. MCO and FLL see EK tails last time I checked.

Route planners don't care about these "artificially inflated numbers" aka total airport pax count at ORD,BOS,YYZ, JFK etc and anyone else who "steals" DTW precious traffic- they care about O+D so you are cutting off your nose to spite your face not flying B6 and their partners from DTW.
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:52 am

adamh8297 wrote:
Route planners don't care about these "artificially inflated numbers" aka total airport pax count at ORD,BOS,YYZ, JFK etc and anyone else who "steals" DTW precious traffic- they care about O+D so you are cutting off your nose to spite your face not flying B6 and their partners from DTW.


Incorrect, that's just an assumption. Raw data is imperfect -- a good example is MSP/HNL, which saw its enplanements double after DL reinstated nonstop service. This is unlikely -- while the new service undoubtedly grew the market, previous data likely underreported the market and new data likely overreports it. "Route planners" have access to data that's been adjusted by third parties to remove this noise and better guesstimate demand, as well as forecast it based upon underlying assumptions.

You'd be dead wrong if you don't think F9 -- for example -- "didn't care" about DAY traffic utilizing IND when building CVG, or TOL traffic utilizing DTW when building CLE. It's all built into the model...

EK, et al certainly has access to data that adjusts for DTW's leakage ( problem is, EK is already a beneficiary of it, so it's not wholly relevant) and the impact of low fares possibly generating traffic in the market (you do realize that happens?).
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:45 pm

Kind of interesting to note that the airports official website hasn't even listed WOW Air yet as one of the airlines serving Detroit. So if I'm flying WOW on Thursday and checking information about terminal location I can't even get that information. You would think that when an airports adds a new airlines to it's operations they would want to make it know but I guess that's not the case with the WCAA. It's going to be interesting to see how much fan fair the airport gives this new flight on Thursday.
Last edited by klm617 on Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:51 pm

adamh8297 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
. I myself refuse to use any carrier that doesn't serve Detroit if you don't have enough faith to serve this market then you don't get my business and I'm not going to artificially inflate then numbers at another airport because doing that will never bring the service to Detroit. I'm a reasonable person so before you say things like Qantas and Air New Zealand I understand those carriers will never serve Detroit but when we talk about airlines like EI,DY,BA,FI,EK,QR or TK that Detroit is a viable option for them I will NEVER fly them unless they have a route to Detroit.


It worked for the people flying B6/EK interline MCO/FLL-BOS/JFK-DXB-XXX. MCO and FLL see EK tails last time I checked.

Route planners don't care about these "artificially inflated numbers" aka total airport pax count at ORD,BOS,YYZ, JFK etc and anyone else who "steals" DTW precious traffic- they care about O+D so you are cutting off your nose to spite your face not flying B6 and their partners from DTW.



FLL and MCO are both B6 focus cities so EK gets feed at both airports DTW has no EK feed it passenger would all have to be Detroit originating passengers. What I'm saying is if I'm flying DTW-BOM, DEL, KEF, WAW or the like I'm not driving to ORD or using B6 to BOS.
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adamh8297
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:03 pm

klm617 wrote:
adamh8297 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
. I myself refuse to use any carrier that doesn't serve Detroit if you don't have enough faith to serve this market then you don't get my business and I'm not going to artificially inflate then numbers at another airport because doing that will never bring the service to Detroit. I'm a reasonable person so before you say things like Qantas and Air New Zealand I understand those carriers will never serve Detroit but when we talk about airlines like EI,DY,BA,FI,EK,QR or TK that Detroit is a viable option for them I will NEVER fly them unless they have a route to Detroit.


It worked for the people flying B6/EK interline MCO/FLL-BOS/JFK-DXB-XXX. MCO and FLL see EK tails last time I checked.

Route planners don't care about these "artificially inflated numbers" aka total airport pax count at ORD,BOS,YYZ, JFK etc and anyone else who "steals" DTW precious traffic- they care about O+D so you are cutting off your nose to spite your face not flying B6 and their partners from DTW.



FLL and MCO are both B6 focus cities so EK gets feed at both airports DTW has no EK feed it passenger would all have to be Detroit originating passengers. What I'm saying is if I'm flying DTW-BOM, DEL, KEF, WAW or the like I'm not driving to ORD or using B6 to BOS.


I don't blame you for not driving to ORD. I've never driven to JFK (I live in metro Boston) for a flight. I've connected everywhere and anywhere without prejudice though I would avoid connections between airports with winter weather issues as much as possible.

The feed isn't that great at either Florida and EK has gone on record they primarily want to feed B6 at JFK/BOS and AS at SEA for the other destinations they do not serve.
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:12 pm

klm617 wrote:
SumChristianus wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Delta piles more A321’s into DTW. In June they will be flying to ATL, MSP, MCO, RSW, FLL, PHX, and SAN. Meanwhile, 737’s are becoming less and MD-90s are taking a storm. There will be quite a few 757s to go around too since they’ll be going to MEX, CUN, BOS, ATL, MCO, FLL, MSP, LAX, SFO, and SEA.

DTW growth and on DL, isn't that positive?


Don't get confused it's not an increase in seats just different equipment those seats are coming from some where and I'd guess that that somewhere is frequency reduction. We still don't have a domestic wife body when every other hub has them.


Virtually ALL of ATL's expansion in recent years (that you have complained INCESSANTLY about) has come from upgrades just like this. Now it is happening in DTW and it isn't good enough? Of course it isn't.

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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:08 pm

klm617 wrote:
Kind of interesting to note that the airports official website hasn't even listed WOW Air yet as one of the airlines serving Detroit. So if I'm flying WOW on Thursday and checking information about terminal location I can't even get that information. You would think that when an airports adds a new airlines to it's operations they would want to make it know but I guess that's not the case with the WCAA. It's going to be interesting to see how much fan fair the airport gives this new flight on Thursday.

They do it because it would be FAKE NEWS if they put the airline on their website. Check the website again on Thursday, or even better yet drive to the airport and tell me if you see a sign for WOW. It could take a week for that!
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:57 pm

adamh8297 wrote:
I don't blame you for not driving to ORD. I've never driven to JFK (I live in metro Boston) for a flight. I've connected everywhere and anywhere without prejudice though I would avoid connections between airports with winter weather issues as much as possible.


The difference is, the drive from Metro Detroit to YYZ or ORD is easy, predictable and low stress (unless you're in Chicago during rush hour).

The feed isn't that great at either Florida and EK has gone on record they primarily want to feed B6 at JFK/BOS and AS at SEA for the other destinations they do not serve.


No, EK claims it's "temporarily" deferring its North American expansion plans, although international weariness/collateral damage of the current administration + general economic conditions could make it indefinite.

And while klm617 has turned DTW into the mockery of a.net, fact is, if EK resumes its planned North American expansion, DTW would have to be on its list, simply because it's one of the few communities that could support it. But of course, this is a.net and facts are meaningless; therefore DTW=bad, CLT=good and therefore CLT is a better candidate!
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klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:37 pm

jetlanta wrote:
klm617 wrote:
SumChristianus wrote:
DTW growth and on DL, isn't that positive?


Don't get confused it's not an increase in seats just different equipment those seats are coming from some where and I'd guess that that somewhere is frequency reduction. We still don't have a domestic wife body when every other hub has them.


Virtually ALL of ATL's expansion in recent years (that you have complained INCESSANTLY about) has come from upgrades just like this. Now it is happening in DTW and it isn't good enough? Of course it isn't.

You are amazing.



Yes but with one major difference when Delta up gauged at ATL they didn't reduce frequency when the up gauged at Detroit they reduced frequency to keep the capacity nearly flat while continuing to add capacity at Atlanta with no frequency reduction.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:07 pm

compensateme wrote:
adamh8297 wrote:
I don't blame you for not driving to ORD. I've never driven to JFK (I live in metro Boston) for a flight. I've connected everywhere and anywhere without prejudice though I would avoid connections between airports with winter weather issues as much as possible.


The difference is, the drive from Metro Detroit to YYZ or ORD is easy, predictable and low stress (unless you're in Chicago during rush hour).

The feed isn't that great at either Florida and EK has gone on record they primarily want to feed B6 at JFK/BOS and AS at SEA for the other destinations they do not serve.


No, EK claims it's "temporarily" deferring its North American expansion plans, although international weariness/collateral damage of the current administration + general economic conditions could make it indefinite.

And while klm617 has turned DTW into the mockery of a.net, fact is, if EK resumes its planned North American expansion, DTW would have to be on its list, simply because it's one of the few communities that could support it. But of course, this is a.net and facts are meaningless; therefore DTW=bad, CLT=good and therefore CLT is a better candidate!



Thank you for the honorable mention.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
jetlanta
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:08 pm

klm617 wrote:
jetlanta wrote:
klm617 wrote:

Don't get confused it's not an increase in seats just different equipment those seats are coming from some where and I'd guess that that somewhere is frequency reduction. We still don't have a domestic wife body when every other hub has them.


Virtually ALL of ATL's expansion in recent years (that you have complained INCESSANTLY about) has come from upgrades just like this. Now it is happening in DTW and it isn't good enough? Of course it isn't.

You are amazing.



Yes but with one major difference when Delta up gauged at ATL they didn't reduce frequency when the up gauged at Detroit they reduced frequency to keep the capacity nearly flat while continuing to add capacity at Atlanta with no frequency reduction.


There are plenty of markets from ATL that saw reduced frequency. Very few saw increased frequency. The same will be true for most DTW markets as this process begins in earnest there. We aren't talking about CRJ to mainline upgrades now. We are talking about M88s to 321s and such.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:14 pm

jetlanta wrote:
klm617 wrote:
jetlanta wrote:

Virtually ALL of ATL's expansion in recent years (that you have complained INCESSANTLY about) has come from upgrades just like this. Now it is happening in DTW and it isn't good enough? Of course it isn't.

You are amazing.



Yes but with one major difference when Delta up gauged at ATL they didn't reduce frequency when the up gauged at Detroit they reduced frequency to keep the capacity nearly flat while continuing to add capacity at Atlanta with no frequency reduction.


There are plenty of markets from ATL that saw reduced frequency. Very few saw increased frequency. The same will be true for most DTW markets as this process begins in earnest there. We aren't talking about CRJ to mainline upgrades now. We are talking about M88s to 321s and such.
A lot of MD-88 and A320 replacements. The MD-90s are being shifted to old 717/MD-88 routes. The 717s and 319s are doing things like GSP, SAT, and MSY that previously had CR7/9s. The 321s seem to be taking over a lot of 739 routes, but on leisure routes. There’s going to be a lot of 757 movement in Detroit this summer.
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:55 pm

klm617 wrote:
DTW has no EK feed it passenger would all have to be Detroit originating passengers.


This is true now since AS canceled PDX-DTW.
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:10 pm

Alphazone wrote:
This is true now since AS canceled PDX-DTW.


When did AS cancel DTW/PDX? The flight's suspended during the dead of winter -- a pretty common practice in the industry -- but resumes in March.
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:21 pm

I'm borrowing some data/stats that we discussed last year for discussion's sake:
From FSDan:
viewtopic.php?t=1363451#p19552123

Year-over-year changes in flying at DTW:

Summer 2012:
DTW

ER4: 16
CRJ: 262
CR7: 45
CR9: 44
E70: 1
E75: 17
D95: 8
319: 24
320: 31
M88: 23
M90: 4
738: 23
752: 25
753: 9
763: 6
764: 3
332: 2
333: 4
777: 3
77L: 1
744: 2

Total: 553


Summer 2014
ER4: 37
CR2: 172
CR7: 43
CR9: 45
E70: 1
E75: 11
717: 18
M88: 28
M90: 13
319: 39
320: 21
738: 10
739: 9
752: 19
753: 1
763: 8
764: 2
333: 4
772: 3
77L: 3
744: 2

Total departures: 489
Approx. seats: 47,097

Summer 2017
CR2: 130
CR7: 60
CR9: 70
E70: 2
E75: 12
717: 38
M88: 23
M90: 25
319: 19
320: 21
738: 5
739: 29
752: 12
753: 8
763: 3
332: 6
333: 3
744: 3

Total departures: 469
Approx. seats: 48,696


--

Reduction in 50 Seat Flying as of Summer 2017.
From FSDan:
viewtopic.php?t=1363451#p19549839

When you look at the percent reductions in 50-seat flying, it's significant:
DTW: 53% reduction
ATL: 56% reduction
MSP: 35% reduction
SLC: 26% reduction
LGA: 73% reduction
JFK: 56% reduction
CVG: 72% reduction
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:58 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
I'm borrowing some data/stats that we discussed last year for discussion's sake:
From FSDan:
viewtopic.php?t=1363451#p19552123

Year-over-year changes in flying at DTW:

Summer 2012:
DTW

ER4: 16
CRJ: 262
CR7: 45
CR9: 44
E70: 1
E75: 17
D95: 8
319: 24
320: 31
M88: 23
M90: 4
738: 23
752: 25
753: 9
763: 6
764: 3
332: 2
333: 4
777: 3
77L: 1
744: 2

Total: 553


Summer 2014
ER4: 37
CR2: 172
CR7: 43
CR9: 45
E70: 1
E75: 11
717: 18
M88: 28
M90: 13
319: 39
320: 21
738: 10
739: 9
752: 19
753: 1
763: 8
764: 2
333: 4
772: 3
77L: 3
744: 2

Total departures: 489
Approx. seats: 47,097

Summer 2017
CR2: 130
CR7: 60
CR9: 70
E70: 2
E75: 12
717: 38
M88: 23
M90: 25
319: 19
320: 21
738: 5
739: 29
752: 12
753: 8
763: 3
332: 6
333: 3
744: 3

Total departures: 469
Approx. seats: 48,696


--

Reduction in 50 Seat Flying as of Summer 2017.
From FSDan:
viewtopic.php?t=1363451#p19549839

When you look at the percent reductions in 50-seat flying, it's significant:
DTW: 53% reduction
ATL: 56% reduction
MSP: 35% reduction
SLC: 26% reduction
LGA: 73% reduction
JFK: 56% reduction
CVG: 72% reduction



Thank you for sharing this as I read this we are down 80 departures since 2012 that is a 20% reduction in aircraft movements and I don't think that ATL seen a 20% reduction in movements when the 50 seaters were replaced with larger aircraft there.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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SumChristianus
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:06 am

Didn't ATL peak at 1200+ DL flights, now down to 900-1000 a day?
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:24 am

Please stick to the topic and keep personal commentary to one another out of the discussion
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:32 am

Let’s talk about WOW tomorrow
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:51 am

flymco753 wrote:
Let’s talk about WOW tomorrow


I checked out the airport website and still no WOW Air listed there. Pretty sad really on the airport's part if it were me I would have put banners up all over the place welcoming WOW Air and making know to as many as possible that they were starting service tomorrow but then again shows the real commitment the airport has in attracting new business. Marketing is greatly lacking and the WCAA has shown us that once again.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:50 pm

klm617 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Let’s talk about WOW tomorrow


I checked out the airport website and still no WOW Air listed there. Pretty sad really on the airport's part if it were me I would have put banners up all over the place welcoming WOW Air and making know to as many as possible that they were starting service tomorrow but then again shows the real commitment the airport has in attracting new business. Marketing is greatly lacking and the WCAA has shown us that once again.
They've began working on a new website that has a beta running, they list WOW on here. Check it: https://beta.metroairport.com/

I also drove by the D Concourse before heading back to Orlando and they have signs and a ticket counter.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:08 pm

flymco753 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Let’s talk about WOW tomorrow


I checked out the airport website and still no WOW Air listed there. Pretty sad really on the airport's part if it were me I would have put banners up all over the place welcoming WOW Air and making know to as many as possible that they were starting service tomorrow but then again shows the real commitment the airport has in attracting new business. Marketing is greatly lacking and the WCAA has shown us that once again.
They've began working on a new website that has a beta running, they list WOW on here. Check it: https://beta.metroairport.com/

I also drove by the D Concourse before heading back to Orlando and they have signs and a ticket counter.


I looked under airlines and didn't see it listed on the new site either.

https://beta.metroairport.com/flights/airline-directory
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:29 pm

klm617 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
klm617 wrote:

I checked out the airport website and still no WOW Air listed there. Pretty sad really on the airport's part if it were me I would have put banners up all over the place welcoming WOW Air and making know to as many as possible that they were starting service tomorrow but then again shows the real commitment the airport has in attracting new business. Marketing is greatly lacking and the WCAA has shown us that once again.
They've began working on a new website that has a beta running, they list WOW on here. Check it: https://beta.metroairport.com/

I also drove by the D Concourse before heading back to Orlando and they have signs and a ticket counter.


I looked under airlines and didn't see it listed on the new site either.

https://beta.metroairport.com/flights/airline-directory
Try going to the part on the main page where it says "terminal by airline", it should be a drop down.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...

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