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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018y

Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:44 pm

flymco753 wrote:
I was looking at next June even though we know it’s going to change and they’re placeholders. Still cool to look at.


Meaningless, unfortunately. Notice how in late April we were discussing that GRR would operate as 8x717 this summer. Well, that was only a couple months ago but GRR is operating as 6xCR9 and 1x321...

DTW may actually benefit from higher fuel prices. Wouldn’t be shocking to see many of the regional flights upgauged to mainline, with DL negating capacity increase by ending some P2P flights and shifing some capacity away from ATL in the Lower Midwest. For example, nearly as many people connect via ATL as they do DTW enroute GRR-LAX; that just doesn’t make as much sense with fuel where it is today.

Reality is, with higher oil prices now projected to reign into the future, many marginal flights will be cut. While we have a thread speculating DL’s next 763 P2P route into Europe, it’s far more likely DL will end some of the 757/763 it’s redebtly added than to expand them. IMO, some of the 763 will see an earlier retirement.

Alternatively, DL may respond by pulling capacity away from DTW as it begins to build its AUS hub with CS100 and launches AUS-NGO with the 359.
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018y

Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:17 am

compensateme wrote:
Alternatively, DL may respond by pulling capacity away from DTW as it begins to build its AUS hub with CS100 and launches AUS-NGO with the 359.
Lol

Good point about the reduction in RJ flying. We'll begin to see this happen in October when routes like ALB, ROC, and SYR get mainline flights. Again, there's a ton of A321's to go around in October, this is progressively going to get larger, and as I continue to look at the schedule, the A321's seem to be replacing 737 flying out of DTW. There's still a significant 757 presence and it seems like there will be.

Also, Spirit has officially obtained double digit market share at DTW, now 10%! This is impressive, it's a 1% increase YTD.
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:21 am

Here’s a video of DTW from 1992 that somebody posted on YouTube several years ago, although it only has a couple hundred views:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aGIr-zk_0Qc

Unfortunately, most of the video is spent driving around the airport and focuses on the heavies but it does provide an exterior view of the Davey Terminal, as well as a glimpse of the connecting cooridors.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PpGiu9U35MQ
Another video from 1992, doesn’t show much but you can catch a glimpse of the vintage gate areas NW used before remodeling to the electronic gate signs circa 1994.

On a related note, I recently noticed Walmart is using the same paging chime that DTW used in the Davey Terminal in the 1990s until it’s closure in 2002. Some quick research yields Walmart has been using this time for quite awhile, but I rarely visit there and just noticed it.
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kavok
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:13 pm

compensateme wrote:
Here’s a video of DTW from 1992 that somebody posted on YouTube several years ago, although it only has a couple hundred views:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aGIr-zk_0Qc

Unfortunately, most of the video is spent driving around the airport and focuses on the heavies but it does provide an exterior view of the Davey Terminal, as well as a glimpse of the connecting cooridors.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PpGiu9U35MQ
Another video from 1992, doesn’t show much but you can catch a glimpse of the vintage gate areas NW used before remodeling to the electronic gate signs circa 1994.

On a related note, I recently noticed Walmart is using the same paging chime that DTW used in the Davey Terminal in the 1990s until it’s closure in 2002. Some quick research yields Walmart has been using this time for quite awhile, but I rarely visit there and just noticed it.


Great find. Love the old vintage memories of what once was.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:41 pm

Watching that video brought back serious memories. I tried extremely hard to remember what the inside of the Davey looked like and this video gave me most of that memory back.
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:01 am

When flying out of Detroit tonight, it looked like Runway 4L was closed. There was a red X sign at the south end of the runway. Is maintenance planned for this runway?
 
N292UX
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:18 am

Speaking of the Davey terminal, are there any good interior shots of the Davey terminal while it was up and running? I've seen plenty shots of the Smith Terminal, but haven't really found any of the Davey.
 
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:20 am

22R/4L is closed for maintenance until 7/26
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:57 am

N292UX wrote:
Speaking of the Davey terminal, are there any good interior shots of the Davey terminal while it was up and running? I've seen plenty shots of the Smith Terminal, but haven't really found any of the Davey.


There isn’t. NW completely renovated Concourses D, E and F anyway in the first half of the 1990s, replacing the carpeting, seating, painting and lighting to give their hub a unified look. They replicated this look to Concourse C. The Airchive had photos taken in 2008 of the portion of C kept for NK — and trust me, they made virtually no changes to the facilities, including reusing NW’s signage — but the website appears to be gone (with the domain sold).

So if you’ve seen pictures of C, you’ve seen most of the Davey as it appeared under NW’s peak hub days.
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:11 pm

May statistics are out. WW carried 3108 pax in their first full month of service, that's not great.

May '17 v May '18, Spirit is up over 2%.

The carriers that are pulling down are AA (who by the way carried 10K less pax in 2018 as oppose to 2017) and F9. AA partly due to upgauging and F9 due to cuts. MCO runs a low 90 LF so that service will never be a problem.
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:15 pm

...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
reasonable
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:59 pm

flymco753 wrote:
May statistics are out. WW carried 3108 pax in their first full month of service, that's not great.


This number is enplanements only, isn't it? Also, it's 4x per week, so something like 194 passengers per flight. Am I interpreting this report correctly?
 
drdisque
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:52 pm

compensateme wrote:
N292UX wrote:
Speaking of the Davey terminal, are there any good interior shots of the Davey terminal while it was up and running? I've seen plenty shots of the Smith Terminal, but haven't really found any of the Davey.


There isn’t. NW completely renovated Concourses D, E and F anyway in the first half of the 1990s, replacing the carpeting, seating, painting and lighting to give their hub a unified look. They replicated this look to Concourse C. The Airchive had photos taken in 2008 of the portion of C kept for NK — and trust me, they made virtually no changes to the facilities, including reusing NW’s signage — but the website appears to be gone (with the domain sold).

So if you’ve seen pictures of C, you’ve seen most of the Davey as it appeared under NW’s peak hub days.


The exception was the F rotunda, which was similar to the rotundas in A and B but also some elements of the JFK Pan Am Worldport. The F rotunda was designed for the 727 - there were notches into the rotunda that the 727 nose fit into and then a very short jetway (like 15-20 feet at most) connected the terminal building to the aircraft. In the 80's some of these were modified with longer jetways that came out of the notch to fit the 747 and DC-10. As the 727 was slated for retirement at the end of the decade in the 90s it was clearly the end of the road for the remaining gates on F that hadn't been modified (A DC-9 might have been doable with a ramp, but an A320 or 757 were too tall to fit). Luckily the McNamara Terminal came online before the final retirement of the 727.

The F rotunda also carried forward some of the design themes of the main Davey Terminal structure, notably the large columnless space with concrete construction, vertical windows, and large cantilevered overhangs. The Davey Terminal was actually a pretty attractive structure when originally conceived. Unfortunately, it was built before the RC-NW merger and after the merger and explosion of DTW into a major hub, it was completely inadequate for its use, thus the patchwork of additions, modifications, and half-ass modernizations.

Map of Davey from 1988 from World Traveler or a timetable (note that A and B don't feature the WN addition or the DL/AA bump-out onto A - they clearly don't care if A and B are accurate).

Image

and from 1997, note the extension to C.
Image

Image

Image
 
timf
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:20 pm

The map from 1997 doesn't even include the final extension that took the C concourse up to C26. It seemed like my flights operated from those gates more often than not.
 
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:22 pm

See this URL for some great photos of the demolition of Concourse C-G.

Contains some nice photos of "bowling shoe" liveried whales and 10's

http://nadc1.com/project/detroit-metrop ... y-airport/
 
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:33 pm

reasonable wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
May statistics are out. WW carried 3108 pax in their first full month of service, that's not great.


This number is enplanements only, isn't it? Also, it's 4x per week, so something like 194 passengers per flight. Am I interpreting this report correctly?
I'm researching that, if it's 194 it's not bad.
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Jul 21, 2018 12:06 am

http://www.waterwinterwonderland.com/im ... ED_AIR.JPG

Allegedly a vintage photo of UA at DTW. If that’s indeed accurate, it depicts Concourse F as it originally appeared.
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Alphazone
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Jul 21, 2018 12:32 am

drdisque wrote:
compensateme wrote:
N292UX wrote:
Speaking of the Davey terminal, are there any good interior shots of the Davey terminal while it was up and running? I've seen plenty shots of the Smith Terminal, but haven't really found any of the Davey.


There isn’t. NW completely renovated Concourses D, E and F anyway in the first half of the 1990s, replacing the carpeting, seating, painting and lighting to give their hub a unified look. They replicated this look to Concourse C. The Airchive had photos taken in 2008 of the portion of C kept for NK — and trust me, they made virtually no changes to the facilities, including reusing NW’s signage — but the website appears to be gone (with the domain sold).

So if you’ve seen pictures of C, you’ve seen most of the Davey as it appeared under NW’s peak hub days.


The exception was the F rotunda, which was similar to the rotundas in A and B but also some elements of the JFK Pan Am Worldport. The F rotunda was designed for the 727 - there were notches into the rotunda that the 727 nose fit into and then a very short jetway (like 15-20 feet at most) connected the terminal building to the aircraft. In the 80's some of these were modified with longer jetways that came out of the notch to fit the 747 and DC-10. As the 727 was slated for retirement at the end of the decade in the 90s it was clearly the end of the road for the remaining gates on F that hadn't been modified (A DC-9 might have been doable with a ramp, but an A320 or 757 were too tall to fit). Luckily the McNamara Terminal came online before the final retirement of the 727.

The F rotunda also carried forward some of the design themes of the main Davey Terminal structure, notably the large columnless space with concrete construction, vertical windows, and large cantilevered overhangs. The Davey Terminal was actually a pretty attractive structure when originally conceived. Unfortunately, it was built before the RC-NW merger and after the merger and explosion of DTW into a major hub, it was completely inadequate for its use, thus the patchwork of additions, modifications, and half-ass modernizations.

Map of Davey from 1988 from World Traveler or a timetable (note that A and B don't feature the WN addition or the DL/AA bump-out onto A - they clearly don't care if A and B are accurate).

Image

and from 1997, note the extension to C.
Image

Image

Image


Was this structure located in the area where the McNamara Terminal currently stands?

I have faded memories of the baggage check-in hall and of an entrance to the terminal on a rather poorly lit basement level, and a gift shop selling Beanie babies. Does this remind you of anything that existed?
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Jul 21, 2018 12:35 am

Definitely the F concourse
 
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:26 am

Alphazone wrote:
Was this structure located in the area where the McNamara Terminal currently stands?

I have faded memories of the baggage check-in hall and of an entrance to the terminal on a rather poorly lit basement level, and a gift shop selling Beanie babies. Does this remind you of anything that existed?


No, the McNamara Terminal complex was built from the ground up on vacant land midfield (hence why many of us refer to it by its project name of Midfield). The Davey Terminal was demolished; the North Terminal was built on its former site, reusing the multilevel roadways.

You’re probably describing the Davey Terminal — while the ticketing lobby was on the second floor, in the same place as the North’s lobby today, reusing the same pedestrian bridge to the parking deck, it lacked natural light and probably felt like a basement to you. Ironically, the original concept of the North involved keeping the actual Davey Terminal (but not the concourses) and gutting/renovating it so it features more natural light... then DTW tore it down and built a new terminal with even less natural light...

And Beanie Babies were common at (Hudson?) News Stands througout the country in the late 1990s.
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Alphazone
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:36 am

compensateme wrote:
Alphazone wrote:
Was this structure located in the area where the McNamara Terminal currently stands?

I have faded memories of the baggage check-in hall and of an entrance to the terminal on a rather poorly lit basement level, and a gift shop selling Beanie babies. Does this remind you of anything that existed?


No, the McNamara Terminal complex was built from the ground up on vacant land midfield (hence why many of us refer to it by its project name of Midfield). The Davey Terminal was demolished; the North Terminal was built on its former site, reusing the multilevel roadways.

You’re probably describing the Davey Terminal — while the ticketing lobby was on the second floor, in the same place as the North’s lobby today, reusing the same pedestrian bridge to the parking deck, it lacked natural light and probably felt like a basement to you. Ironically, the original concept of the North involved keeping the actual Davey Terminal (but not the concourses) and gutting/renovating it so it features more natural light... then DTW tore it down and built a new terminal with even less natural light...

And Beanie Babies were common at (Hudson?) News Stands througout the country in the late 1990s.


And there was one called Berry Terminal, too, which was home to NW flights? As for the other terminal, I vaguely recall some friends arriving from Australia on UA via somewhere into that DTW terminal with low ceilings, which maybe was the Davey Terminal?
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:37 am

dtw9 wrote:
Definitely the F concourse


Thanks! I couldn’t tell - the red carpeting and space age seating is before my time, I suppose. I do recall the red carpeting TWA utilized in Concourse C, which was pretty nasty by the time NW replaced it circa 1995.

Shout out to drdisque for his memories. Remember, the WN extension wasn’t added until 2000 though.
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:46 am

Alphazone wrote:
And there was one called Berry Terminal, too, which was home to NW flights? As for the other terminal, I vaguely recall some friends arriving from Australia on UA via somewhere into that DTW terminal with low ceilings, which maybe was the Davey Terminal?


The Berry Terminal hosted charter and international flights; DTW, like most major airports, had a large charter operation until the 2000s to places like Mexico/Caribbean, FLL, LAS, MCO and even LAX. Today, that service has been replaced by ULCC. But because the Berry Terminal was the only one with a FIS, NW utilized it for international arrivals, bussijg connecting passengers to the Davey Terminal. Aircraft were towed empty to the Davey for departures. Same thing happens today at ORD (AA and UA) and elsewhere.

UA moved from the Davey Terminal and Concourse F to the L.C. Smith Terminal and Concourse A sometime in the late 1980s. F was later used for most of NW’s widebody departures, including 747/744.
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Alphazone
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:52 am

compensateme wrote:
Alphazone wrote:
And there was one called Berry Terminal, too, which was home to NW flights? As for the other terminal, I vaguely recall some friends arriving from Australia on UA via somewhere into that DTW terminal with low ceilings, which maybe was the Davey Terminal?


The Berry Terminal hosted charter and international flights; DTW, like most major airports, had a large charter operation until the 2000s to places like Mexico/Caribbean, FLL, LAS, MCO and even LAX. Today, that service has been replaced by ULCC. But because the Berry Terminal was the only one with a FIS, NW utilized it for international arrivals, bussijg connecting passengers to the Davey Terminal. Aircraft were towed empty to the Davey for departures. Same thing happens today at ORD (AA and UA) and elsewhere.

UA moved from the Davey Terminal and Concourse F to the L.C. Smith Terminal and Concourse A sometime in the late 1980s. F was later used for most of NW’s widebody departures, including 747/744.


Indeed then the low ceilings area I remember was the Smith Terminal. Thank you for telling me all the things.

I wonder if Smith Rd near DTW is also named after L.C. Smith.
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:00 am

Alphazone wrote:
compensateme wrote:
Alphazone wrote:
And there was one called Berry Terminal, too, which was home to NW flights? As for the other terminal, I vaguely recall some friends arriving from Australia on UA via somewhere into that DTW terminal with low ceilings, which maybe was the Davey Terminal?


The Berry Terminal hosted charter and international flights; DTW, like most major airports, had a large charter operation until the 2000s to places like Mexico/Caribbean, FLL, LAS, MCO and even LAX. Today, that service has been replaced by ULCC. But because the Berry Terminal was the only one with a FIS, NW utilized it for international arrivals, bussijg connecting passengers to the Davey Terminal. Aircraft were towed empty to the Davey for departures. Same thing happens today at ORD (AA and UA) and elsewhere.

UA moved from the Davey Terminal and Concourse F to the L.C. Smith Terminal and Concourse A sometime in the late 1980s. F was later used for most of NW’s widebody departures, including 747/744.


Indeed then the low ceilings area I remember was the Smith Terminal. Thank you for telling me all the things.

I wonder if Smith Rd near DTW is also named after L.C. Smith.


Most likely. Pretty much everything in the area is named after crooked Wayne County/Detroit politicians. Coming so: Kwame Kilpatrick Drive and the Robert Ficano Terminal.
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Alphazone
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:09 am

compensateme wrote:
Alphazone wrote:
compensateme wrote:

The Berry Terminal hosted charter and international flights; DTW, like most major airports, had a large charter operation until the 2000s to places like Mexico/Caribbean, FLL, LAS, MCO and even LAX. Today, that service has been replaced by ULCC. But because the Berry Terminal was the only one with a FIS, NW utilized it for international arrivals, bussijg connecting passengers to the Davey Terminal. Aircraft were towed empty to the Davey for departures. Same thing happens today at ORD (AA and UA) and elsewhere.

UA moved from the Davey Terminal and Concourse F to the L.C. Smith Terminal and Concourse A sometime in the late 1980s. F was later used for most of NW’s widebody departures, including 747/744.


Indeed then the low ceilings area I remember was the Smith Terminal. Thank you for telling me all the things.

I wonder if Smith Rd near DTW is also named after L.C. Smith.


Most likely. Pretty much everything in the area is named after crooked Wayne County/Detroit politicians. Coming so: Kwame Kilpatrick Drive and the Robert Ficano Terminal.


John D Dingell Drive should be changed to Stavros Niarchos Memorial Pkwy.
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tys777
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:55 am

Hey guys,

Flew out of DTW to MSP on Spirit today and had a question. Anyone know what's up with the B6 E190 and UA E170(5) parked at the old Smith terminal? Just long rons that they moved off stand? It was roughly 4pm when we taxied by and it caught me off guard to see them there.

Thanks
 
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:56 am

Probably cancelled due to weather /ATC
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:27 am

Davey Terminal interior shot:
https://ibb.co/mNKzZJ

Alphazone wrote:
compensateme wrote:
Alpha-zone wrote:

Indeed then the low ceilings area I remember was the Smith Terminal. Thank you for telling me all the things.

I wonder if Smith Rd near DTW is also named after L.C. Smith.


Most likely. Pretty much everything in the area is named after crooked Wayne County/Detroit politicians. Coming so: Kwame Kilpatrick Drive and the Robert Ficano Terminal.


John D Dingell Drive should be changed to Stavros Niarchos Memorial Pkwy.


LOL. No shortage of them here, unfortunately.
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:59 pm

compensateme wrote:
Davey Terminal interior shot:
https://ibb.co/mNKzZJ
Even though I was 6 or 7 when the terminal closed, I still remember it clearly after looking at this picture.
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:22 pm

Wow, good walk down memory lane here. I know I've got some old pictures somewhere, probably in a box or photo album somewhere in my basement or at my parents house.

My timeframe for really getting interesting in aviation and remembering all of my travels as a kid is from about 1987 onward. I've been able to piece together records of every flight I took back as far as 1989 (I started a log in Excel in 1999 that I still use to this day). My travel as a kid was mostly on AA, Piedmont, and DL. My dad was a big FF on AA so we almost always flew AA through ORD, DFW, RDU, or BNA. My grandparents lived in SC, so we would always fly through CLT, RDU, or ATL to visit them a few times a year. My first flight on NW wasn't until 1994, but from about that time forward it was almost all NW from there on out. I always remember all the DC-10s and 744s parked on F concourse when driving up to the terminals. I have a lot of memories of the go-go 90s in the Davey when we would drive out there in high school to spot planes (before 9/11 security) and you just go into the concourses. When the places was a hot mess, jam-packed, and falling apart.

See - I remember back in the day pre about 1995 mostly the LC Smith Terminal:
C was Delta, USAir, Midwest Express, and TWA
B was Continental, AA, and Piedmont
A was United, Southwest, and some others

At some point, I remember, everyone else got moved out C and NW took over the whole thing.
AA dropped from 4 gates B7, B8, B9, B10 to just B7, B8, and AA Eagle used ground loading B14/B15 downstairs when they downgauged BNA to J31s before they dropped it and when they started LGA ERJ service.
DL moved from C into gates B9 & B10, used to regularly have 757 & 767s going to ATL
Piedmont was in B11 & B12, I think US kept those gates for a while, then at some point US moved over the A rotunda
TWA was in B11 & B12, then AA took over those gates for a while after that merger.

WN for a while had a ticket counter that was an "island" in the middle of the floor in the LC Smith Terminal.

The concessions in the LC Smith terminal were the most generic Host/Marriott vendors you ever saw; there was a "Cafeteria" on airfield side of the LC Smith terminal. There was a "Bar" in Concourse B corridor post-security.

Question - The Davey had moving sidewalks parallel to the corridors connecting the concourses. Where those added in the mid-90s renovations or where those there longer?
 
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:29 pm

I also remember that all of the baggage claims at DTW in the Davey and Smith were dungeon-like.

Davey was way too small, low ceilings, prone to flooding, wet, moldy, nasty carpet, often crowded, typically had buckets on the floor, and also would half the lights out.

Smith had I think 3 different baggage claims all on the lower level. There was the one that airlines on C would use downstairs at the north end of the Smith.
There was the "main one" that was used by Concourse B airlines like AA and WN that was straight from B on the roadway. It had disgusting bus-station like bathrooms. Then again all the bathrooms in the Smith were bus-station nasty. I was recently in MEM and their baggage claim reminds me of the old Smith Terminal claim.
Then there was some other random claim that was tucked around a corner and not the easiest to find that some airlines used. If I remember, there was so much gate shuffling between concourses, yet the airlines would keep their ticket counters and claims the same so after a while it made no sense as a passenger which ones they were using and they had to put directional signs all over the place.
 
nmdrdh787
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:57 pm

flymco753 wrote:
reasonable wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
May statistics are out. WW carried 3108 pax in their first full month of service, that's not great.


This number is enplanements only, isn't it? Also, it's 4x per week, so something like 194 passengers per flight. Am I interpreting this report correctly?
I'm researching that, if it's 194 it's not bad.


Is WW selling DTW-KEF-DEL? I wonder if that will impact sales (they are doing the same with ORD).
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:23 pm

nmdrdh787 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
reasonable wrote:

This number is enplanements only, isn't it? Also, it's 4x per week, so something like 194 passengers per flight. Am I interpreting this report correctly?
I'm researching that, if it's 194 it's not bad.


Is WW selling DTW-KEF-DEL? I wonder if that will impact sales (they are doing the same with ORD).
Yes they are, and they're moving the flight time to a 7pm departure from DTW.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
nmdrdh787
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:11 pm

flymco753 wrote:
nmdrdh787 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
I'm researching that, if it's 194 it's not bad.


Is WW selling DTW-KEF-DEL? I wonder if that will impact sales (they are doing the same with ORD).
Yes they are, and they're moving the flight time to a 7pm departure from DTW.


hmmm. I wonder if they are putting a second bank in.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:48 pm

AF 77W (F-GZNP) inbound today as AF378 because yesterday's rotation was cancelled.
 
drdisque
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:18 pm

While we're going down the Davey Terminal memory lane (or, rather, the memory Rogell Drive), does anyone remember how in the 90's all of the baggage claims were the metal ovoid style things where bags dumped out from above from mystery holes? Well there was also one random "snakey belt" style conveyor baggage claim at the end, similar to the ones in the Smith Terminal. I NEVER saw this used. Did anyone ever see it used?

This is not to be confused with the oversize/oddsize baggage claim which was just a big wide belt that came out of the wall and unceremoniously dumped whatever was on it.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:48 pm

There's an advantage to DL pulling LHR down to daily. The aircraft will be a 333 which means better margins as oppose to a 332 and 76W.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
thedetroitpole
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:09 pm

Yet another development that will again move the city of Detroit forward. https://www.freep.com/story/money/perso ... 832827002/
 
kavok
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:20 pm

flymco753 wrote:
There's an advantage to DL pulling LHR down to daily. The aircraft will be a 333 which means better margins as oppose to a 332 and 76W.


I also think the reality is this, between DL and BA adding new TATL service from IND, BNA, PIT, and to a lesser extent other midsize airports in the US... those pax have to come from somewhere. They aren’t all new pax who weren’t flying to Europe previously because their airport didn’t have TATL service. The reality is many were connecting in DTW that aren’t now.

As a result, I think both DTW and MSP will see some minor reductions in TATL capacity. DTW-LHR goes down to 1x daily. Maybe one or both of DTW/MSP-AMS goes down to 3x daily.

There are also rumors out there of BA adding STL-LHR, and possibly DL shifting the PIT-CDG flight to CMH-AMS. None of those rumors are that far fetched, and could also further justify the previously mentioned slight (stressing slight) reductions in TATL capacity from DTW we may see.
Last edited by kavok on Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:24 pm

Also, DTW gets a new international route on AM to Queretaro! https://www.facebook.com/AeromexicoNA/p ... =3&theater
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
Alphazone
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:37 pm

kavok wrote:
MSP-AMS goes down to 3x daily.


I think MSP-AMS on most days is right now 3x daily, for summertime.
N664US The Spirit of Beijing
N670US World Plane - 50 Years Bridging the Pacific / The Alliance Spirit
N671US City of Detroit
N673US City of Tokyo
N674US City of Shanghai
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kavok
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:32 am

Alphazone wrote:
kavok wrote:
MSP-AMS goes down to 3x daily.


I think MSP-AMS on most days is right now 3x daily, for summertime.


Should have clarified myself better, as I meant JV metal neutral combined at 3x daily in the summer. Basically, the combination of KL+DL total at 3x daily combined. I think this last summer they were at 3.5-4x daily between the two.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:13 am

DL performance on DTW-LHR has always been pretty lackluster, based on posted load factors outside of peak summer, and especially when they've flown off-peak capacity at more than 1 daily flights. There is so much US-LHR capacity on nonstops from every major market, plus from every major hub DL has to fill the plane with O&D, connecting traffic from small markets, and cheap-fare traffic in can poach from other large markets. The third option being the least desirable type of traffic.

They are not likely to reduce DTW-AMS below 4 daily during peak summer.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:24 am

After a lot of travel every week in April-June, I had 3 week break of no travel until last week. It was nice to be home and enjoy our Michigan summer evenings.

A few random thoughts and observations from my travels through DTW over the past few weeks:

- Why do they wait until peak summer travel to perform maintenance projects and concrete repair in the Ground Transportation center at the McNamera terminal? The lower arrivals level roadway looks like a giant CF.
- On a similar note, why do they do concrete / joint repair in the parking garage, closing off all of level 7 during the same time. Could these projects have been done in May or waited until Sept/Oct?
- Are they going to add trees / landscaping this year to the reconstructed median areas on the north entrance off I-94. It currently looks like a giant weed-patch and unremarkable for a major airport. Even much smaller airports like CID, SDF, BNA, all have much better looking "front doors" to their airports
- The "rotunda" area in the Center A and Concourse C Skyclubs are currently undergoing renovation that states "new food serving areas coming soon" Anyone know what they are doing to the Skyclubs? They aren't doing a full club reno are they? Are they keeping self-serve or putting in bartenders? I assume once they finish these two clubs, they will do the 2 other clubs in High A and Low A.
- While we don't have the line-up of whales anymore, its pretty cool seeing 4 A350s on concourse A, when viewed from the Skyclub in C.
- The increase in 717s seems noticeable this summer, particularly in evening, when there were 7-8 717s in a row on the inside alley of the low A gates.
 
drdisque
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jul 26, 2018 3:21 pm

The best time of year to do Landscaping in the Detroit area is September-October. They're probably waiting until then. I don't think they were quite done enough with the heavy work when the planting window closed in early May.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jul 26, 2018 3:49 pm

If I may ask for the 100th time, if DTW-LHR is a lackluster route, why minimum ~$900 RT for off-peak/advanced booking and $2800 RT walk-up prices.

DL should offer $399 RT to improve loads.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:04 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
If I may ask for the 100th time, if DTW-LHR is a lackluster route, why minimum ~$900 RT for off-peak/advanced booking and $2800 RT walk-up prices.

DL should offer $399 RT to improve loads.
FWIW, all DL cares about are them up front folks. They know that business pax will pay anyhing for a nonstop. They could care less about the main cabin.

GRU makes a ton of money off cargo and baggage.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
DTWorld
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:54 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
The "rotunda" area in the Center A and Concourse C Skyclubs are currently undergoing a renovation that states "new food serving areas coming soon" Anyone know what they are doing to the Skyclubs? They aren't doing a full club reno, are they? Are they keeping self-serve or putting in bartenders? I assume once they finish these two clubs, they will do the 2 other clubs in High A and Low A.


In short, they're placing a buffet stand in the center of the rotunda and they have cafeteria-style seating around it. They also removed the carpeting for some tile which means it's going to be much louder in there. I'm not sure what they did with the TV's in that room. No bartender will be there to my knowledge. I haven't seen it for the one by C8 (my personal favorite) though I'd hazard to guess it's the same concept.

They say it will all be done by August.

As for the ones by A18 and A68? Time will tell.
 
kavok
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:56 pm

flymco753 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
If I may ask for the 100th time, if DTW-LHR is a lackluster route, why minimum ~$900 RT for off-peak/advanced booking and $2800 RT walk-up prices.

DL should offer $399 RT to improve loads.
FWIW, all DL cares about are them up front folks. They know that business pax will pay anyhing for a nonstop. They could care less about the main cabin.

GRU makes a ton of money off cargo and baggage.


Correct. It is #1, how many seats up front can you sell... and hopefully enough to make the flight worthwhile. Assuming #1 is met profitability, then question #2 becomes at what price point do you sell the seats in coach to get a high load factor.

If you look at markets like NYC, YYZ, etc. that have lower TATL coach pricing, you basically have an over supply of coach seats in the market. However that oversupply is offset by the high volume of seats those markets sell profitability in F on the same plane.

Additionally, that oversupply of coach seats in NYC, YYZ, etc. TATL flights is also made up of TATL LCC that, aside from WW, dont exist in the DTW market.

Point being, the DTW market and DL cachement area can only fill (on average) about one plane worth of LHR traffic up front. Yes, it could fill more than one plane in coach, and thus since coach supply is low, demand creates higher than average prices in coach for DTW TATL service.

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