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thedetroitpole
Posts: 199
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Jul 27, 2018 2:56 pm

About the comment, regarding landscaping at the north end of the airport, I agree. With nothing there it tends to look a bit ugly. The south entrance is what needs some tender, love, and care. I was very disappointed upon arrival. The signs that are up at the north end look spectacular I must admit.

I had the opportunity to use our new WOW service, and must I admit, you will not be disappointed. The flight was completely full on my transit from Reykjavik to Detroit. Going there, I recall only having 3 seats open. Most travelers seem to have embarked from or to London and Frankfurt.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Jul 27, 2018 5:36 pm

The Detroit/Orlando market never fails to amuse me. It's the single largest market without combinations (NYC=JFK, LGA, EWR, HPN, SWF, MIA=MIA, FLL, etc) at 2600 PDEW. This more than any peer city in the Midwest and other peer cities like Atlanta, Charlotte, Minneapolis, etc. The numbers are growing too. If B6 drops FLL, I can see them swapping it with MCO. Every airline on the MCO route averages 88%+ LF's. This is DOT data folks, I can't make this up.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
nmdrdh787
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Jul 27, 2018 6:03 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
If I may ask for the 100th time, if DTW-LHR is a lackluster route, why minimum ~$900 RT for off-peak/advanced booking and $2800 RT walk-up prices.

DL should offer $399 RT to improve loads.


This is why I can't take you seriously.
 
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SumChristianus
Posts: 628
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Jul 27, 2018 6:08 pm

flymco753 wrote:
The Detroit/Orlando market never fails to amuse me. It's the single largest market without combinations (NYC=JFK, LGA, EWR, HPN, SWF, MIA=MIA, FLL, etc) at 2600 PDEW. This more than any peer city in the Midwest and other peer cities like Atlanta, Charlotte, Minneapolis, etc. The numbers are growing too. If B6 drops FLL, I can see them swapping it with MCO. Every airline on the MCO route averages 88%+ LF's. This is DOT data folks, I can't make this up.

You sure it's 2600 PDEW?
Its still quite large, but 2600 PDEW would put DTW-MCO as being as large as MCO-EWR. Its the third largest O/D from MCO but seems more like 1700 PDEW. Sorry to nitpick, but 2600 seemed so unbelievable compared to capacity offered.

It looks like around 100 PDEW travels indirectly between DTW-MCO while MCO-DTW-GRR is the largest beyond market carried on the DTW-MCO segment at around 22 PDEW.

Here is Q1 USDOT data for DTW-MCO one way:
From DTW … … 22548.22222 … $245.51
MCO … … 1726.444444 … $193.72
… DL … 851.6666667 … $278.83
… NK … 617.4444444 … $103.87
… F9 … 167 … $81.39
… WN … 50.33333333 … $175.55
… AA … 27.33333333 … $181.97
… UA … 8.666666667 … $202.64
… 99 … 2.666666667 … $201.98
… B6 … 1.222222222 … $219.60
… -- … 0.111111111 … $0.00
FLL … … 1262.777778 … $195.69
… DL … 690.1111111 … $269.15
… NK … 407.2222222 … $95.31
… B6 … 78.44444444 … $150.68
… WN … 37.77777778 … $150.07
… AA … 25.88888889 … $168.50
… 99 … 15.22222222 … $231.35
… UA … 8.111111111 … $173.66
RSW … … 1257.333333 … $220.33
… DL … 567.4444444 … $315.63
… NK … 528.2222222 … $101.97
… F9 … 115.8888889 … $91.58
… WN … 21.77777778 … $160.96
… 99 … 10.66666667 … $258.14
… AA … 10.66666667 … $182.28
… UA … 1.777777778 … $193.85
… B6 … 0.888888889 … $228.50
TPA … … 1116 … $195.04
… DL … 526.5555556 … $268.49
… NK … 491 … $94.58
… WN … 60.77777778 … $168.23
… AA … 24.22222222 … $183.97
… 99 … 6.666666667 … $240.58
… UA … 6.444444444 … $223.35
… B6 … 0.333333333 … $385.33
LAS … … 1013.666667 … $262.26
… DL … 464.2222222 … $374.75
… NK … 395.3333333 … $116.94
… WN … 119.5555556 … $195.61
… AA … 15.77777778 … $229.79
… UA … 13.11111111 … $252.87
… 99 … 4.666666667 … $278.40
… F9 … 0.555555556 … $95.32
… AS … 0.333333333 … $122.33
… -- … 0.111111111 … $0.00
LGA … … 925.3333333 … $199.48
… DL … 438.7777778 … $265.20
… AA … 246.6666667 … $164.53
… NK … 214.3333333 … $65.73
… 99 … 14.66666667 … $199.71
… WN … 5.555555556 … $107.73
… UA … 2.888888889 … $173.63
… B6 … 1.555555556 … $110.63
… -- … 0.888888889 … $0.00
ATL … … 900 … $218.46
… DL … 412.4444444 … $286.82
… NK … 272.1111111 … $60.77
… WN … 181.7777778 … $133.44
… AA … 19.44444444 … $151.80
… 99 … 7.111111111 … $291.11
… UA … 4.888888889 … $169.52
… -- … 2.222222222 … $0.00
PHX … … 776.3333333 … $265.65
… DL … 343.2222222 … $322.84
… AA … 249 … $251.88
… WN … 151.4444444 … $198.11
… NK … 20.66666667 … $128.15
… UA … 7.888888889 … $199.94
… 99 … 2.555555556 … $298.01
… F9 … 1.333333333 … $113.00
… AS … 0.222222222 … $101.28
LAX … … 724 … $292.65
… DL … 425.1111111 … $389.69
… NK … 157.1111111 … $131.45
… WN … 56.44444444 … $199.90
… AA … 45.11111111 … $242.94
… UA … 23.22222222 … $319.48
… 99 … 13.44444444 … $322.01
… F9 … 1.777777778 … $140.44
… AS … 1.333333333 … $79.78
… B6 … 0.333333333 … $433.67
… -- … 0.111111111 … $0.00
DFW … … 659 … $207.00
… AA … 312.7777778 … $218.84
… DL … 221.6666667 … $228.20
… NK … 112.3333333 … $59.74
… UA … 9.333333333 … $156.90
… 99 … 2.777777778 … $234.42
… -- … 0.111111111 … $0.00
DEN … … 647.1111111 … $181.64
… DL … 262.2222222 … $236.85
… NK … 155.7777778 … $69.19
… WN … 123.3333333 … $146.18
… UA … 92.11111111 … $191.96
… AA … 11.66666667 … $146.72
… 99 … 2 … $540.78
MIA … … 564 … $206.10
… AA … 233.7777778 … $177.13
… DL … 225.2222222 … $254.64
… F9 … 85.44444444 … $89.37
… 99 … 11.55555556 … $242.62
… UA … 8 … $131.89
ORD … … 536.5555556 … $180.29
… DL … 241.2222222 … $175.94
… UA … 147.2222222 … $182.81
… AA … 140.8888889 … $186.50
… 99 … 7.111111111 … $162.08
… -- … 0.111111111 … $0.00
Last edited by SumChristianus on Fri Jul 27, 2018 6:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
UA DL LH NW AA WN - Hope I don't have to leave WY for a while
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klakzky123
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Jul 27, 2018 6:09 pm

nmdrdh787 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
If I may ask for the 100th time, if DTW-LHR is a lackluster route, why minimum ~$900 RT for off-peak/advanced booking and $2800 RT walk-up prices.

DL should offer $399 RT to improve loads.


This is why I can't take you seriously.


Taxes and Government Fees on an LHR flight from DTW amount to $200-$250 alone. I'm sure netting $150 on an LHR fare would be an extremely lucrative strategy. :P
 
winginit
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Jul 27, 2018 6:18 pm

nmdrdh787 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
If I may ask for the 100th time, if DTW-LHR is a lackluster route, why minimum ~$900 RT for off-peak/advanced booking and $2800 RT walk-up prices.

DL should offer $399 RT to improve loads.


This is why I can't take you seriously.


I legitimately thought he was joking... no?
 
nmdrdh787
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Jul 27, 2018 7:54 pm

winginit wrote:
nmdrdh787 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
If I may ask for the 100th time, if DTW-LHR is a lackluster route, why minimum ~$900 RT for off-peak/advanced booking and $2800 RT walk-up prices.

DL should offer $399 RT to improve loads.


This is why I can't take you seriously.


I legitimately thought he was joking... no?


I've never seen any post that he has made as "joking".

klakzky123 wrote:
nmdrdh787 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
If I may ask for the 100th time, if DTW-LHR is a lackluster route, why minimum ~$900 RT for off-peak/advanced booking and $2800 RT walk-up prices.

DL should offer $399 RT to improve loads.



This is why I can't take you seriously.


Taxes and Government Fees on an LHR flight from DTW amount to $200-$250 alone. I'm sure netting $150 on an LHR fare would be an extremely lucrative strategy. :P


Wanna see how that worked out? Look at Air Berlin.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Jul 27, 2018 10:24 pm

SumChristianus wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
The Detroit/Orlando market never fails to amuse me. It's the single largest market without combinations (NYC=JFK, LGA, EWR, HPN, SWF, MIA=MIA, FLL, etc) at 2600 PDEW. This more than any peer city in the Midwest and other peer cities like Atlanta, Charlotte, Minneapolis, etc. The numbers are growing too. If B6 drops FLL, I can see them swapping it with MCO. Every airline on the MCO route averages 88%+ LF's. This is DOT data folks, I can't make this up.

You sure it's 2600 PDEW?
Its still quite large, but 2600 PDEW would put DTW-MCO as being as large as MCO-EWR. Its the third largest O/D from MCO but seems more like 1700 PDEW. Sorry to nitpick, but 2600 seemed so unbelievable compared to capacity offered.

It looks like around 100 PDEW travels indirectly between DTW-MCO while MCO-DTW-GRR is the largest beyond market carried on the DTW-MCO segment at around 22 PDEW.

Here is Q1 USDOT data for DTW-MCO one way:
From DTW … … 22548.22222 … $245.51
MCO … … 1726.444444 … $193.72
… DL … 851.6666667 … $278.83
… NK … 617.4444444 … $103.87
… F9 … 167 … $81.39
… WN … 50.33333333 … $175.55
… AA … 27.33333333 … $181.97
… UA … 8.666666667 … $202.64
… 99 … 2.666666667 … $201.98
… B6 … 1.222222222 … $219.60
… -- … 0.111111111 … $0.00
FLL … … 1262.777778 … $195.69
… DL … 690.1111111 … $269.15
… NK … 407.2222222 … $95.31
… B6 … 78.44444444 … $150.68
… WN … 37.77777778 … $150.07
… AA … 25.88888889 … $168.50
… 99 … 15.22222222 … $231.35
… UA … 8.111111111 … $173.66
RSW … … 1257.333333 … $220.33
… DL … 567.4444444 … $315.63
… NK … 528.2222222 … $101.97
… F9 … 115.8888889 … $91.58
… WN … 21.77777778 … $160.96
… 99 … 10.66666667 … $258.14
… AA … 10.66666667 … $182.28
… UA … 1.777777778 … $193.85
… B6 … 0.888888889 … $228.50
TPA … … 1116 … $195.04
… DL … 526.5555556 … $268.49
… NK … 491 … $94.58
… WN … 60.77777778 … $168.23
… AA … 24.22222222 … $183.97
… 99 … 6.666666667 … $240.58
… UA … 6.444444444 … $223.35
… B6 … 0.333333333 … $385.33
LAS … … 1013.666667 … $262.26
… DL … 464.2222222 … $374.75
… NK … 395.3333333 … $116.94
… WN … 119.5555556 … $195.61
… AA … 15.77777778 … $229.79
… UA … 13.11111111 … $252.87
… 99 … 4.666666667 … $278.40
… F9 … 0.555555556 … $95.32
… AS … 0.333333333 … $122.33
… -- … 0.111111111 … $0.00
LGA … … 925.3333333 … $199.48
… DL … 438.7777778 … $265.20
… AA … 246.6666667 … $164.53
… NK … 214.3333333 … $65.73
… 99 … 14.66666667 … $199.71
… WN … 5.555555556 … $107.73
… UA … 2.888888889 … $173.63
… B6 … 1.555555556 … $110.63
… -- … 0.888888889 … $0.00
ATL … … 900 … $218.46
… DL … 412.4444444 … $286.82
… NK … 272.1111111 … $60.77
… WN … 181.7777778 … $133.44
… AA … 19.44444444 … $151.80
… 99 … 7.111111111 … $291.11
… UA … 4.888888889 … $169.52
… -- … 2.222222222 … $0.00
PHX … … 776.3333333 … $265.65
… DL … 343.2222222 … $322.84
… AA … 249 … $251.88
… WN … 151.4444444 … $198.11
… NK … 20.66666667 … $128.15
… UA … 7.888888889 … $199.94
… 99 … 2.555555556 … $298.01
… F9 … 1.333333333 … $113.00
… AS … 0.222222222 … $101.28
LAX … … 724 … $292.65
… DL … 425.1111111 … $389.69
… NK … 157.1111111 … $131.45
… WN … 56.44444444 … $199.90
… AA … 45.11111111 … $242.94
… UA … 23.22222222 … $319.48
… 99 … 13.44444444 … $322.01
… F9 … 1.777777778 … $140.44
… AS … 1.333333333 … $79.78
… B6 … 0.333333333 … $433.67
… -- … 0.111111111 … $0.00
DFW … … 659 … $207.00
… AA … 312.7777778 … $218.84
… DL … 221.6666667 … $228.20
… NK … 112.3333333 … $59.74
… UA … 9.333333333 … $156.90
… 99 … 2.777777778 … $234.42
… -- … 0.111111111 … $0.00
DEN … … 647.1111111 … $181.64
… DL … 262.2222222 … $236.85
… NK … 155.7777778 … $69.19
… WN … 123.3333333 … $146.18
… UA … 92.11111111 … $191.96
… AA … 11.66666667 … $146.72
… 99 … 2 … $540.78
MIA … … 564 … $206.10
… AA … 233.7777778 … $177.13
… DL … 225.2222222 … $254.64
… F9 … 85.44444444 … $89.37
… 99 … 11.55555556 … $242.62
… UA … 8 … $131.89
ORD … … 536.5555556 … $180.29
… DL … 241.2222222 … $175.94
… UA … 147.2222222 … $182.81
… AA … 140.8888889 … $186.50
… 99 … 7.111111111 … $162.08
… -- … 0.111111111 … $0.00
Thats what table 6 data said for the 1st Q of 2018. Maybe not so.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:31 pm

Anyone want to bet that DL DTW-SJC will show up on this or next weeks OAG?
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:43 pm

Any reason why? Did I miss something, you know something we don’t, or just pure speculation?

Seems like an odd time since it would be an oct /nov start at the earliest?
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:19 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Any reason why? Did I miss something, you know something we don’t, or just pure speculation?

Seems like an odd time since it would be an oct /nov start at the earliest?
Nope I was snooping around on google flights and found a little something on April 12th
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
kavok
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:56 pm

flymco753 wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Any reason why? Did I miss something, you know something we don’t, or just pure speculation?

Seems like an odd time since it would be an oct /nov start at the earliest?
Nope I was snooping around on google flights and found a little something on April 12th


Very good and interesting find. It is listed as being flown on a 738, with morning fight westward, and afternoon return eastward. Well done.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:18 pm

Yep, it’s about time. DTW-SJC can be found on Delta.com although they haven’t really loaded inventory in anything but B fares so it’s pricing out crazy expensive until they load the other gate buckets. Like said, schedule is similar to the SNA flights and connects well with other mid-Atlantic and east coast markets.

PDX still appears to be 2x next summer for now, so it’s not coming at the expense of that for now.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:05 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Question - The Davey had moving sidewalks parallel to the corridors connecting the concourses. Where those added in the mid-90s renovations or where those there longer?


I have a newspaper clipping detailing Terminal 2’s opening that explicitedly mentions the moving walkways in the causeways. The walkway between C and D was added circa 1995, when they easentially annexed C from the L.C. Smith (I vaguely recall they removed the confusing security checkpoint set-up). The initial extension to C opened in 1990, and NW maps indicate they had access to the DL/TW Gates from that point inward, but they didn’t officially take them over until late 1994.

Departed flights has gate assignments through the years. It’s my understanding that, until RC began assembling the hub in the early 1980s, NW held the leases to A, AA to B, DL/CO to C, EA to most of D, various regionals on E (including NC) and UA to F; all other airlines were subleasing.
http://www.departedflights.com/airports.html

It’s a shame DTW garnered such poor reputation. NW/DTW spent as much money expanding and renovating Davey as DTW later spent building North. NW has updated the lighting, carpeting and seating, replaced some of the glass bricked hallways with glass windows and built three elaborate shuttle stops (they each had an elevator, escalator and heated waiting area). Concourse G was rebuilt into one of the better regional terminals of the time. They also attempted to improve the concessions program, but HMSHost wasn’t interested due to the cost of a buildout vs. its longevity (hence MSU Grill and other cheesy options) NW retaliated by leaking to the media HMSHost’s 30+ year no-bid contract, which ultimately enabled NW to design/control the concessions program at Midfield - and that was an even bigger disaster.

The flaws of the Davey were its inherant design - low ceilings, few restrooms, etc. It’s a shame how much money was wasted on the terminal in its waning years — NW/DTW should’ve planned the Midfield, succession Davey Terminal plans and the then-hub at the same time. They should’ve built G as the DC-10 hanger they later added, given its temporary use. They should’ve built a proper international concourse in G’s place, connecting it to the Berry Terminal (the international transit experience was ranked the worst of any hub in the nation, and Asian visitors were upset with the duty free store). They should’ve built mini Davey as a proper extension to the ticketing lobby/baggage claim, given they added a new baggage sorting system that lasted four years.

But hey, this is DTW, with a storied history of corruption, typically ran by Friends of Robert Ficano rather than people with actual leadership experience... but I digress...
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Jul 28, 2018 10:37 pm

Regarding the old baggage claim, here’s a video somebody made of the Smith baggage claim in Concourse B (warning: he’s super annoying):
https://www.flickr.com/photos/shawnsninja/2767215439

I believe this baggage claim was added in 1978, as part of the same improvement package that brought the Berry Terminal. I’m about the same age as PSU, and our memories are fairly consistent (in fact, my first flight on NW was also in 1994, although my dad was a UA Guy) so obviously I wasn’t born when it was built. The original baggage claim in A continued to House UA until the terminal closed nearly a decade ago. DL’s baggage claim remained in C, even after it split its operation to A/B in late 1994 (DL was suppose to relocate to C after Midfield opened, but NK was rapidly growing). I believe F9 and FL took it over once DL itself went to Midfield, but I’m not entirely sure. I assume that prior to the opening of the above baggage claim, B had a similar one?

The baggage claim in Davey was dreadful, and had a whopping single elevator connecting it to the upper level, creating uncomfortable waits. I have one of those old Airport Connection newsletters from 1994 that detailed NW’s plan to expand the ticketing lobby and baggage claim by 1996; NW did somewhat expand the ticketing lobby in 1997 with “mini Davey,” but it was only for international check-in/processing. No modifications were made to the baggage claim, leaving just four carousels that frequently took an hour or longer to offload your flight. NW did replace the baggage sorting system, however. They also replaced Midfield’s circa 2008, meaning DTW coughed up a coupe hundred million for three new baggage sorting systems for NW in roughly 10 years. Comes with great kickbacks to Wayne County officials, I assume. :)
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:12 pm

Looks like SJC begins Thursday, November 15th. It’s interesting DL would choose to launch a new business route right before the Holday season; the time between Thanksgiving and Christmas is usually among the slowest of the year, and typically when tickets are at their lowest price.

Also, I’d expect PDX will return to daily service shortly — DL wasted no time in whacking the flight for the winter after AS opted not to resume the route. Would be nice to see NK return, but it appears to have been a huge disaster.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:45 pm

So Sacramento is officially the largest unserved market in the 48. Anchorage is the largest unserved US market period.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:07 am

Cross-posting from the OAG thread:

DTW-SJC, its about time. Its been a pretty glaring omission for the past few years and one of the next logical adds for DL at DTW. Whats pretty interesting is how close-in they are adding this flight. We all spectulated this had a chance at being a Summer 2018 add, and when it didn't happen, then maybe Summer 2019. The fact they are adding it with on 3 month advance lead-time, and in mid-November (going into a typically slower period for business travel) shows that DL has a lot of faith in the route. Somewhat because of the growth in SJC, somewhat due to the ties between Silicon Valley and the Auto Industry, and somewhat because of SFO. I know people who regularly travel DTW-SFO and prices are very high compared to other west coast markets from DTW. Adding SJC gives DL the ability to add more capacity from DTW to the Bay Area on peak flights without having to fly "wing tip" flights to SFO.

DTW-TUL, meh oh well. I'm pretty sure like DTW-LIT its been added and dropped more than once. Currently is a CR7 route and sure seems to meet the "long and thin" test. Not a lot of natural business ties between the two markets and TUL is better connected with ATL and MSP. Plus, its a big AA market.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:20 am

DL briefly tried DTW-SMF in 2010 with an A320, but it was a evening departure westbound, red-eye departure eastbound. SMF just doesn't seem like a "natural" add to DTW considering they can easily add more capacity to SLC, MSP, or ATL for connecting traffic.

HNL has been flown before seasonally, but its more about the opportunity cost. I'm intrigued that they don't operate it at least of a very limited seasonal basis for example the 2-week Christmas/New Years period, and from mid-Feb through mid-April. This would only happen if both the ATL and MSP flights are over-performing.

ANC is an interesting market because of the heavy seasonality and influence of the cruise industry. Somewhat like YVR service, its highly dependent on cruise ship schedules.
Its not about DTW though it about connectivity to the entire network.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:27 pm

DL Press Release for DTW-SJC:
https://news.delta.com/delta-fly-nonsto ... ive-nov-15

Its written very specifically toward the SJC market and SJC-area media, talking up how DL is growing and expanding service in SJC.
Interesting they say that with DTW being adding that SJC is now connected to "all seven DL hubs". Thus that would be SEA, LAX, SLC, MSP, ATL, JFK, and now DTW.

Granted, its not really like DL needs to market themselves to anyone in DTW.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:23 pm

Top 5 largest un-served markets by average.
Source: DOT Table 6
Computations: pax in Q1'17+Q2+Q3+Q4+Q1'18/5=Avg PDEW both ways /2 =PDEW one way

SMF: 126/63 *DL 738?
ELP: 94/47 *DL 319?
TUS: 81/41 *DL 319?
ABQ: 76/38 *DL A220?
RNO: 72/36 *DL A220?

GEG is a not so distant 6th.
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kavok
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:44 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
DL briefly tried DTW-SMF in 2010 with an A320, but it was a evening departure westbound, red-eye departure eastbound. SMF just doesn't seem like a "natural" add to DTW considering they can easily add more capacity to SLC, MSP, or ATL for connecting traffic.



2010 was in the middle of the recession, and as you mentioned, it was a red eye eastbound which business pax try and avoid. A lot of the borderline flights that didn’t work in the recession, could very well work now. The economy as a whole is obviously better, and especially DTWs economy is much improved compared to what it was 8 years ago.

Note that recent DTW-West Coast adds at PDX, SNA, and now SJC have all been middle of the day flights which appeals much more to business pax. And as far as we know, those flights have been successful. If the SJC-DTW flight works as well, I don’t think a SMF add to DTW is out of the question.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:21 am

I love it how this forum nickel and dimes analysis of any new service to DTW, yet AA, UA and even DL to SLC are adding routes nearly entirely dependent on connecting traffic. Heck, CLT is nearly 90% connecting traffic for AA — 90% freaking percent — and yet CLT is planning a massive expansion.

DL identifies DTW as its second largest hub. That a seasonal flight to ANC or DUB on a 757, or limited seasonal to HNL, is fantasy is just nonsense. Heck, DL decided DTW couldn’t support summer service to CUN until NK added it, even as UA offered it via CLE.

kavok wrote:
2010 was in the middle of the recession, and as you mentioned, it was a red eye eastbound which business pax try and avoid. A lot of the borderline flights that didn’t work in the recession, could very well work now. The economy as a whole is obviously better, and especially DTWs economy is much improved compared to what it was 8 years ago


All eastbound flights from Hawaii to the East are redeyes, there’s just no way to avoid it. An 8AM deparure from HNL would arrive after 10pm, for example.
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:38 am

compensateme wrote:
I love it how this forum nickel and dimes analysis of any new service to DTW, yet AA, UA and even DL to SLC are adding routes nearly entirely dependent on connecting traffic. Heck, CLT is nearly 90% connecting traffic for AA — 90% freaking percent — and yet CLT is planning a massive expansion.

DL identifies DTW as its second largest hub. That a seasonal flight to ANC or DUB on a 757, or limited seasonal to HNL, is fantasy is just nonsense. Heck, DL decided DTW couldn’t support summer service to CUN until NK added it, even as UA offered it via CLE.

kavok wrote:
2010 was in the middle of the recession, and as you mentioned, it was a red eye eastbound which business pax try and avoid. A lot of the borderline flights that didn’t work in the recession, could very well work now. The economy as a whole is obviously better, and especially DTWs economy is much improved compared to what it was 8 years ago


All eastbound flights from Hawaii to the East are redeyes, there’s just no way to avoid it. An 8AM deparure from HNL would arrive after 10pm, for example.

Don't get me wrong, I'm in the group that thinks that DTW could support stuff like ANC, HNL, DUB based on O&D + connections, however I'm being a realist based on DL's conservative network planning approach for DTW / MSP where they have such a high financial barrier to adding flights/capacity versus its strategic markets where it will add service at a much lower threshold.

DTW-SJC should've happened about 3-4 years ago, so maybe theres hope someday.
 
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:39 am

compensateme wrote:
I love it how this forum nickel and dimes analysis of any new service to DTW, yet AA, UA and even DL to SLC are adding routes nearly entirely dependent on connecting traffic. Heck, CLT is nearly 90% connecting traffic for AA — 90% freaking percent — and yet CLT is planning a massive expansion.

DL identifies DTW as its second largest hub. That a seasonal flight to ANC or DUB on a 757, or limited seasonal to HNL, is fantasy is just nonsense. Heck, DL decided DTW couldn’t support summer service to CUN until NK added it, even as UA offered it via CLE.

kavok wrote:
2010 was in the middle of the recession, and as you mentioned, it was a red eye eastbound which business pax try and avoid. A lot of the borderline flights that didn’t work in the recession, could very well work now. The economy as a whole is obviously better, and especially DTWs economy is much improved compared to what it was 8 years ago


All eastbound flights from Hawaii to the East are redeyes, there’s just no way to avoid it. An 8AM deparure from HNL would arrive after 10pm, for example.

Don't get me wrong, I'm in the group that thinks that DTW could support stuff like ANC, HNL, DUB based on O&D + connections, however I'm being a realist based on DL's conservative network planning approach to its mature / high-margin hubs where they have such a high financial barrier to adding flights/capacity versus its strategic markets where it will add service at a much lower threshold.

DTW-SJC should've happened about 3-4 years ago, so maybe theres hope someday.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:54 am

If there’s any hope for DUB service, it’ll come from either EI or D8 since both airlines now have the equipment to fly to DTW using narrowbody aircraft. I wouldn’t be surprised if one of the two announced it this August.

D8/DI has announced in an article some time ago that they want to do DTW-LGW. Their low fares combined with their off daily service shouldn’t be an issue, particularly if it’s 3x/wk.

I just got back from visiting the Detroit area and am extremely impressed. We visited the river walk and Greektown. When I say Downtown is on its way up, it’s no joke. The people mover was full each way, the streets were filled of tourists and people bike riding or on a stroll, it seems like the GM HQ and river walk was a huge deal. Boats everywhere, people sitting on benches, kids playing in the water jets etc.

Judging some of the languages I’ve heard there was a lot of Brazilian, Japanese, Indian, and German people that were there. It’s unsure as if they were there on vacation, work, or live there and want something to do, but seeing folks from all around the world there was impressive.
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:46 pm

Sounds like you visited around lunchtime when its usually pretty busy on the Riverwalk in front of the Ren Cen. Its super popular around lunchtime and in the early-evenings.

Thats likely a representative of the background of the people who work in the auto industry as those are other global regions of the auto industry. Some are here on a business, some are transplants, and some do a rotation abroad.

You barely scratched the surface. There is a lot going on and a lot of interesting things, a lot of which you really need someone who lives down there to show you in the right direction.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:00 pm

Kinda interesting watching the fall of LAN. At its peak, NW carried about 150k passengers DTW-LAN and 40k MSP-LAN; DL carried 40k combined to CVG and ATL during the same time period. Last year, A little more than a decade later, DL carried 65k to DTW and 34k to MSP (none to CVG and ATL). Those numbers will fall even further this year, and beginning next winter, DL is further reducing service - 3xDTW and 2xMSP, all operated with 50-seaters.

I would assume most of this is due to the Michigan Flyer (which operates cheap bus service LAN-DTW) and leakage caused by the fare war ongoing at GRR (delivering expontential growth, but it’s still interesting to watch.
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:26 am

Initially, LAN lost a lot of luster as FNT became "Michigan's Low Fare airport" and saw a significant amount of leakage down I-69 to FNT. That was when C8, FL, and NW were duking it out when FNT was in its hey-day. Now, FNT is a shell of its former self. Like said, GRR is gained a lot of service in the past decade and now offers better connectivity and fares than FNT.

Also, the increased amount of LCC/ULCC service at DTW with the rise of NK in particular likely causes more and more leakage to DTW with the fares/connectivity/nonstop options.

I also suspect that DL has different pricing/revenue strategies than NW did at its peak. The fare difference in many cases to fly from FNT, MBS, LAN versus DTW was very nomimal, and I used this to my advantage back in the day to build segment runs, or to in same cases find cheaper fares than DTW.
 
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rangercarp
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:33 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Also, the increased amount of LCC/ULCC service at DTW with the rise of NK in particular likely causes more and more leakage to DTW with the fares/connectivity/nonstop options.

I also suspect that DL has different pricing/revenue strategies than NW did at its peak. The fare difference in many cases to fly from FNT, MBS, LAN versus DTW was very nomimal, and I used this to my advantage back in the day to build segment runs, or to in same cases find cheaper fares than DTW.


Living in southern Michigan I always check prices out of TOL, DTW, FWA, AZO, and LAN. I have flown a lot out of DTW and FWA; a fiar amount out of TOL. Once or twice out of AZO. I have never found a price out of LAN that was even close. Anecdotal evidence for sure, but that has been my experience.
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kavok
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:48 pm

rangercarp wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Also, the increased amount of LCC/ULCC service at DTW with the rise of NK in particular likely causes more and more leakage to DTW with the fares/connectivity/nonstop options.

I also suspect that DL has different pricing/revenue strategies than NW did at its peak. The fare difference in many cases to fly from FNT, MBS, LAN versus DTW was very nomimal, and I used this to my advantage back in the day to build segment runs, or to in same cases find cheaper fares than DTW.


Living in southern Michigan I always check prices out of TOL, DTW, FWA, AZO, and LAN. I have flown a lot out of DTW and FWA; a fiar amount out of TOL. Once or twice out of AZO. I have never found a price out of LAN that was even close. Anecdotal evidence for sure, but that has been my experience.


Speaking on LAN-DTW: Another anecdote, but over the last few years it seems that DL prices at LAN are about $100 more on average than flying direct from DTW. A decade ago, it wasn’t uncommon in the final NW days to find LAN prices sometimes cheaper than DTW, even with the connection being made in DTW.

Obviously cost is an impact on the decision making for pax spending from their own pocket, and as mentioned, these pax also have more LCC options from DTW now than in the past. For the business pax buying a DL ticket, probably the main decision point is weighing the quick 500mqm earned versus the likelihood and impact of your regional jet being delayed, thus impacting your schedule.

But as the frequency of flights from LAN decreases, the demand will likely also decrease as well as the flight schedules become less appealing to business pax. If the only flights offered from LAN result in a long layover at DTW, or conversely force a short connection that may be missed, more business pax may very well give up the convenience of LAN and make the drive to DTW.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:28 pm

Appears that DL upgagued SJC already to a 739 after thanksgiving and through December. Wow.
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Skyblue39
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:23 pm

Detroit-Dublin is “Skyscanner Unserved Route of the Week” with over 21,000 searches; Aer Lingus’ 13th US route??

https://www.anna.aero/2018/08/01/detroi ... -us-route/
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:17 pm

Before the O/D police, who have no idea how to troll the CHI, CLT or SLC threads, appear let’s remind a.net one thing: DOT data is imperfect, especially when it comes to split tariffs, hence services that filter noise. I would handily bet that that majority of tickets purchased from DTW to DUB are split tariffs — that is, when you buy your RT$750 ticket from Expedia, it’s really a combination of $150 DTW-BOS and $600 BOS-DUB tickets. I pointed this out awhile ago here: at the time, booking the split tariff was half the price of booking a singular ticket.

And to the average traveler, it doesn’t matter: a split tariff ticket is treated as a singular tariff ticket when it comes to baggage, schedule changes, IRROPS, etc. I’m sure most of us have traveled on one at one point.

DTW-DUB was a charter market for many years, operated mainly by ATA’s L1011 and later 757. The last flights operated about a decade ago (I can’t recall the operator), during the start of the recession and run up on fuel.

If the route happened, it’d most likely be operated by DL, several times per week during the summer months. I’d bet against Aer Lingus.
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:35 pm

Next month, the North Terminal will be turning 10-years-old, which means its concession contracts will expire. Bring out the new!!!

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article/20 ... umpkin-air
Only McDonald’s and National Coney Island are staying. Say hello to Chic-fil-A, Atwater Brewery, Outback Steakhouse and MOD Pizza, among others.

I’m disappointed. Obviously, most of these are HMSHost exclusive brands, but Outback Steakhouse? Seriously? Is this the first restaurant they opened since shuttering most of the chain? Oh well, I guess they’re targeting Millenials who enjoy nastalgia. And while MOD Pizza is okay, I don’t partically care to pay $20 for a personal-sized pizza and soda. I’ll miss Earl of Sandwhich!!

Chic-fil-A is interesting. Most likely choosen because it’s an HMSHost brand that will deliver strong sales, but Chic-fil-A refuses to grant franchisees in Detroit, instead focusing mainly on the SoCal market. Even though around here, Chi-fil-A is know as that place you go to when the line at Raising Cane’s is too long!
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ikolkyo
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:50 pm

Wow, its been 10 years already.... Sheesh.
 
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:58 pm

All around great news for the D! Very happy and looking forward to more. The airport has been packed every time I am there, and I've made 14 trips this year so far. Downtown is just astonishing, the rapid growth and development. The red tape of yester year is gone thanks to DG. That new 60+ story glass tower is on its way up and will soon change the landscape down there. From what http://www.curbeddetroit.com and other sources have stated, we can expect at least 4 new Hotels by 2020 on top of the 4 that just opened or are opening, and there are no less than 20 major commercial high rise/residential high rise or split use about to break ground or in the 1st or 2nd phases of vertical build.
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:58 am

There is a lot of big announcements for developments within the CoD over the past few weeks. Impressive news for neighborhoods like Corktown and Brush Park.
This all bodes well for the future of the city proper.

The region as a whole is still a bit stagnant, but at least there is a resurgange toward development in the core city versus out in the exurbs.
 
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:42 am

actually a lot of corporate movement from the burbs or other Michigan cities to downtown. Chemical bank (Saginaw) building new headquarters downtown, and will employ 2500. Move from MBS, Ford moving up to 10k downtown/corktown for the autonomous vehicle division, that's going into the Central Train Depot, believe it or not. Those are just 2.
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:21 am

Seems like WOW Premium is always sold out on flights from or to DTW. The main cabin remind only 75% full. The flight probably does well off premium.
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:17 am

flymco753 wrote:
Seems like WOW Premium is always sold out on flights from or to DTW. The main cabin remind only 75% full. The flight probably does well off premium.


Seat maps are a really, really bad way of gauging loads or success of flights.

At the 11th hour, UA upgauged SFO to a 320 for the month of August. Both flights went out full today, a total of 3 NRSA were cleared.
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gnakra80
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:38 am

long time reader, first time poster...i'm originally from St Louis (RIP TWA) and noticed that all DL flights to STL are now on RJs, and all the flights to Minny from STL are now mostly mainline. This is very surprising. I would assume that DTW is a great connection point for people from STL to get to Europe and Asia. One could say that many people in STL still fly AA, but they left us a long time ago, and a whole generation has grown up agnostic to what airline they fly, they fly what's convenient and offers great service. AA fails at both!

Anyways, interesting to see that.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:43 am

gnakra80 wrote:
long time reader, first time poster...i'm originally from St Louis (RIP TWA) and noticed that all DL flights to STL are now on RJs, and all the flights to Minny from STL are now mostly mainline. This is very surprising. I would assume that DTW is a great connection point for people from STL to get to Europe and Asia. One could say that many people in STL still fly AA, but they left us a long time ago, and a whole generation has grown up agnostic to what airline they fly, they fly what's convenient and offers great service. AA fails at both!

Anyways, interesting to see that.


It’s because DL’s moved a significant amount of flow traffic to ATL. 150k more passengers flew from via ATL last year than pre-merger, vs. a 95k drop from DTW. MSP is more-or-less stagnant; presumably, flows via MSP were less impacted than those from DTW.
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:54 am

compensateme wrote:
gnakra80 wrote:
long time reader, first time poster...i'm originally from St Louis (RIP TWA) and noticed that all DL flights to STL are now on RJs, and all the flights to Minny from STL are now mostly mainline. This is very surprising. I would assume that DTW is a great connection point for people from STL to get to Europe and Asia. One could say that many people in STL still fly AA, but they left us a long time ago, and a whole generation has grown up agnostic to what airline they fly, they fly what's convenient and offers great service. AA fails at both!

Anyways, interesting to see that.


It’s because DL’s moved a significant amount of flow traffic to ATL. 150k more passengers flew from via ATL last year than pre-merger, vs. a 95k drop from DTW. MSP is more-or-less stagnant; presumably, flows via MSP were less impacted than those from DTW.
Not to mention DTW and STL are huge GoJet bases so I’m sure that has something to do with it. DTW after all is RJ land, always will be once the other hubs start getting the A220. They’ll just shove the remaining CR9s and E7Ws there.
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kavok
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:04 pm

Eventually, as the RJ fleet starts to shrink in size, I would guess larger cities like STL would be among the first to go more/all mainline from DTW.

But yes, for those who do like to bash DL diverting flows elsewhere, STL is almost a textbook example of logical flows being routed away from DTW. If you are flying on DL from STL to Europe or the northeast US, DTW is obviously the better geographical connection point.
 
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:04 pm

kavok wrote:
Eventually, as the RJ fleet starts to shrink in size, I would guess larger cities like STL would be among the first to go more/all mainline from DTW.

But yes, for those who do like to bash DL diverting flows elsewhere, STL is almost a textbook example of logical flows being routed away from DTW. If you are flying on DL from STL to Europe or the northeast US, DTW is obviously the better geographical connection point.
CLE used to be until they added a 5th daily flight and 2 mainline flights. The only destinations in the Midwest that lack mainline flights are CMH, STL, and OMA.
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:06 pm

Actually, not all flights on DTW-STL are on RJs. For the past few years they typically operate 1-2 mainline, typically coinciding with the late-afternoon STL-DTW departure. Last summer when I flew this route, it was an MD88.

Today DTW-STL operates:
1x CR7 (G7)
4x CR9 (G7)
1x 717

As flymco753 indicated, part of the reason that contributes to DTW-STL having a lot of RJs is because of G7 (Gojet) maintenance and crew bases in STL. They need to move aircraft between DTW-STL, and there is typically detailed contractual specifics in the air service agreements that dictate a certain number of aircraft with RON / terminate in maintenance bases. This almost entirely explains why G7 has an 8pm CR9 & 10pm CR9 departure to STL. In reality, in most cases one of these RON flights would be mainline like most other medium-sized markets, or they collapse them into a single MD90/A320 flight.

For fun here's some comparison of STL
Summer 2005: (Northwest)
DTW: 7x - 2x CRJ, 1x D9S, 4x D95
MSP: 8x - 1x CRJ, 2x ARJ, 5x D9S

Summer: 2018:
DTW: 6x - 1x CR7, 4x CR9, 1x 717
MSP: 6x - 3x CR9, 1x 717, 2x M90

MSP can still pick-up westbound connections and intra-Midwest traffic, and Europe / Asia. DTW works better for Northeast connections. ATL obviously Southeast and Florida.
 
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:12 pm

flymco753 wrote:
kavok wrote:
Eventually, as the RJ fleet starts to shrink in size, I would guess larger cities like STL would be among the first to go more/all mainline from DTW.

But yes, for those who do like to bash DL diverting flows elsewhere, STL is almost a textbook example of logical flows being routed away from DTW. If you are flying on DL from STL to Europe or the northeast US, DTW is obviously the better geographical connection point.
CLE used to be until they added a 5th daily flight and 2 mainline flights. The only destinations in the Midwest that lack mainline flights are CMH, STL, and OMA.


CMH, is like STL in the sense they need to RON Republic aircraft for maintenance purposes. So, unlikely to see mainline for now. Back in the day this route used to see anything and everything from SF3, CRJ, ARJ, DC-9 up to A320 depending on the schedule.

STL gets 1-2 token mainline flights, typically timed to depart STL late-afternoon/early evening

OMA did have a run not to long ago of sustaining a mainline RON from DTW. I didn't realize it wasn't on the schedule this summer. I think this route actually went the opposite trend from 3x to 4x by replacing the A319/A320 flight with 2 - CR7/9s.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:12 pm

flymco753 wrote:
kavok wrote:
Eventually, as the RJ fleet starts to shrink in size, I would guess larger cities like STL would be among the first to go more/all mainline from DTW.

But yes, for those who do like to bash DL diverting flows elsewhere, STL is almost a textbook example of logical flows being routed away from DTW. If you are flying on DL from STL to Europe or the northeast US, DTW is obviously the better geographical connection point.
CLE used to be until they added a 5th daily flight and 2 mainline flights. The only destinations in the Midwest that lack mainline flights are CMH, STL, and OMA.


CMH, is like STL in the sense they need to RON Republic aircraft for maintenance purposes. So, unlikely to see mainline for now. Back in the day this route used to see anything and everything from SF3, CRJ, ARJ, DC-9 up to A320 depending on the schedule.

STL gets 1-2 token mainline flights, typically timed to depart STL late-afternoon/early evening

OMA did have a run not to long ago of sustaining a mainline RON from DTW. I didn't realize it wasn't on the schedule this summer. I think this route actually went the opposite trend from 3x to 4x by replacing the A319/A320 flight with 2 - CR7/9s.
 
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:18 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
kavok wrote:
Eventually, as the RJ fleet starts to shrink in size, I would guess larger cities like STL would be among the first to go more/all mainline from DTW.

But yes, for those who do like to bash DL diverting flows elsewhere, STL is almost a textbook example of logical flows being routed away from DTW. If you are flying on DL from STL to Europe or the northeast US, DTW is obviously the better geographical connection point.
CLE used to be until they added a 5th daily flight and 2 mainline flights. The only destinations in the Midwest that lack mainline flights are CMH, STL, and OMA.


CMH, is like STL in the sense they need to RON Republic aircraft for maintenance purposes. So, unlikely to see mainline for now. Back in the day this route used to see anything and everything from SF3, CRJ, ARJ, DC-9 up to A320 depending on the schedule.

STL gets 1-2 token mainline flights, typically timed to depart STL late-afternoon/early evening

OMA did have a run not to long ago of sustaining a mainline RON from DTW. I didn't realize it wasn't on the schedule this summer. I think this route actually went the opposite trend from 3x to 4x by replacing the A319/A320 flight with 2 - CR7/9s.


OMA still has the overnight mainline RON from DTW. I think it comes back in September.

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