klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:15 pm

BenflysDTW wrote:
I have to agree with klm617 on this. What DTW could need is VS back. I think that x3 flights a day on legacy carriers is overkill. Maybe down the road.


2 flights a day on DTW-LHR for the premium traffic is plenty and BA would bring no price relief to this market the thing that is going to stimulate growth at DTW. Hopefully DY or PF will step and add DTW-London for the summer of 2019.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:29 pm

I know this was brought up in the past but if there were somebody who might be able to make DTW-LHR work it would be AA with a 757 rather than BA with a wide body.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
winginit
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:08 pm

klm617 wrote:
BenflysDTW wrote:
I have to agree with klm617 on this. What DTW could need is VS back. I think that x3 flights a day on legacy carriers is overkill. Maybe down the road.


2 flights a day on DTW-LHR for the premium traffic is plenty and BA would bring no price relief to this market the thing that is going to stimulate growth at DTW. Hopefully DY or PF will step and add DTW-London for the summer of 2019.


For either PF or DY to launch DTWLHR they need to setup the station, so if you're hoping for a Summer 2019 add that would need to be announced in the next few weeks to capitalize on the necessary booking window.
 
NCAD95
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:54 pm

winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:
BenflysDTW wrote:
I have to agree with klm617 on this. What DTW could need is VS back. I think that x3 flights a day on legacy carriers is overkill. Maybe down the road.


2 flights a day on DTW-LHR for the premium traffic is plenty and BA would bring no price relief to this market the thing that is going to stimulate growth at DTW. Hopefully DY or PF will step and add DTW-London for the summer of 2019.


For either PF or DY to launch DTWLHR they need to setup the station, so if you're hoping for a Summer 2019 add that would need to be announced in the next few weeks to capitalize on the necessary booking window.



Not LHR, LGW for DY and STN for PF. Yes I agree but I really don't see this happening it's time to start looking at summer 2020.
 
winginit
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:12 pm

NCAD95 wrote:
winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:

2 flights a day on DTW-LHR for the premium traffic is plenty and BA would bring no price relief to this market the thing that is going to stimulate growth at DTW. Hopefully DY or PF will step and add DTW-London for the summer of 2019.


For either PF or DY to launch DTWLHR they need to setup the station, so if you're hoping for a Summer 2019 add that would need to be announced in the next few weeks to capitalize on the necessary booking window.



Not LHR, LGW for DY and STN for PF. Yes I agree but I really don't see this happening it's time to start looking at summer 2020.


I was referring tot hem having to setup DTW
 
Luke1994
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:35 am

I think a problem with AA/BA launching KDTW is the lack of an Admirals Club at the North Terminal. There isn’t a OW Club in Detroit, so premium pax wouldn’t have anywhere to unwind or relax before after a flight across the Atlantic. I think once we hear that they’re building one, they’ll make an announcement.

Now IIRC EI doesn’t use them, so I don’t think they’d require one to launch Detroit, but I think AA/BA would.
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kavok
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:39 am

Luke1994 wrote:
I think a problem with AA/BA launching KDTW is the lack of an Admirals Club at the North Terminal. There isn’t a OW Club in Detroit, so premium pax wouldn’t have anywhere to unwind or relax before after a flight across the Atlantic. I think once we hear that they’re building one, they’ll make an announcement.

Now IIRC EI doesn’t use them, so I don’t think they’d require one to launch Detroit, but I think AA/BA would.


Even without BA/AA TATL service, I have always found it odd that AA doesn’t have a loungein the North Terminal. Even with DTW being a DL Fortress hub, AA still commands a decent number of pax when you look at the raw numbers (not %). Given the size of the Detroit market, and the amount of business pax they fly to/from DTW, I would think they’d still have a lounge for their domestic services.
 
BenflysDTW
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:49 pm

HNL appears to be 4-5 weekly for the summer, with no service on days like tues or wed.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:30 pm

BenflysDTW wrote:
HNL appears to be 4-5 weekly for the summer, with no service on days like tues or wed.


It’s 5x weekly, X23. It isn’t surprising; DL’s using the flight to backfill capacity declines elsewhere, while attempting to earn higher yields (via people willing to pay more for the longhaul, especially up front), take pressure off its West Coast flights, offer service when people are most likely to use it (X23) and free resources to be used elsewhere. And of course, they’re hoping to pick up a few more local passengers.

For example, compared to this past summer, SLC goes from a 763A to 757 (-62 seats), SEA goes from 2x753 to 2x757 (-70) and LAX sees a 753 switch to the 757 (-35). The total loss in physical weekly seats... is about the same being added through the new DTW flight.

The drop in 753 isn’t a mistake... they’re scheduled more within then 48 — for example, from DTW, LAX and SEA see additional flights (compared to this year) while MCO gets 3 and FLL gets 1 — markets that haven’t seen a summer 753 (from DTW) in awhile.

In response to several users asking if DL would put the 777, 333 or even 359 on ATL next summer (it was a 764 this year, and is scheduled as such again next year), a DL insider said DL was looking into adding a second 763/764 flight from ATL instead, as they offered in the 2000s. I’m pleased they considered DTW (which seems logical anyway) — after all, just a few years ago they were insisting the market couldn’t support summer CUN service, when even CLE (!!!) had it...
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:23 am

Luke1994 wrote:
I think a problem with AA/BA launching KDTW is the lack of an Admirals Club at the North Terminal. There isn’t a OW Club in Detroit, so premium pax wouldn’t have anywhere to unwind or relax before after a flight across the Atlantic. I think once we hear that they’re building one, they’ll make an announcement.

Now IIRC EI doesn’t use them, so I don’t think they’d require one to launch Detroit, but I think AA/BA would.


Right now the task on hand is making sure DTW doesn't get passed over by EI for a summer of 2020 DTW-DUB flight. This is where our energy has to be focused 1000%. The numbers back up that it's viable.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Sep 30, 2018 1:57 pm

DL DTW-JAX MAR 2.0>1.0[1.0]

Look at Delta being very generous to Spirit. Keep flying a once daily CR9 with a horrible flight schedule compared to a well timed and very dense A320.
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flymco753
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Why is DTW-GRU so large compared to peer cities?

Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:56 pm

Recently, I've been more observant about the DTW-GRU market. Seems like there is a lot of ethnic travel between the two cities. Detroit has a growing Brazilian population (albeit not as fast as NYC, Florida, or Atlanta).

I guess my question would be, why is this market so large and important compared to peer cities like Toronto, Chicago, Minneapolis, etc? Where and why is there a decent amount of ethnic travel between SE Mich and S.P. Brasil? I'll assume a lot of it has to do with the auto industry, but it doesn't explain the ethnic travel, why are people willing to pay that premium?

Keep it respectful or I'll report the thread and have it locked.
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B752OS
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Re: Why is DTW-GRU so large compared to peer cities?

Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:32 pm

Detroit does not have a significant Brazilian population and it pales in comparison to NYC and Miami and it is also a lot smaller than other cities such as Boston, Chicago and Los Angeles.

Detroit is also not a major, or even a mid-major destination for Brazilians in the US. Massachusetts, Connecticut, New York, Georgia, Florida, California and Texas all lead the way in that regard. Il
 
ahj2000
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Re: Why is DTW-GRU so large compared to peer cities?

Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:46 pm

Doesn't auto traffic have to do a bit with it? Similar to all the DTW-México flights?
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dcajet
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Re: Why is DTW-GRU so large compared to peer cities?

Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:54 pm

DTW does not even support daily non stop service to GRU; Chicago and Toronto do.

This is a route that was predicated on auto industry travel mostly and connections to Asia. There is not a significant Brazilian expat community there and Detroit is not on the radar for inbound tourism to the US; in fact, what most folks hear about Detroit is not precisely rosy.

It is fine for you to ask for respect, but how about getting your facts straight and being somewhat objective so you can be taken seriously?
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lavalampluva
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Re: Why is DTW-GRU so large compared to peer cities?

Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:05 pm

At one point it was daily, but over the years it’s been trimmed back significantly. I doubt if this has anything to do with the Brazilian population of Detroit. And I’m not sure if São Paulo has much of an auto industry. Maybe not final assembly, but they probably manufacture vehicle parts.
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Prost
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Re: Why is DTW-GRU so large compared to peer cities?

Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:16 pm

From this snippet:

The automotive industry is one of the main economic activities in Brazil. In 2012, the country was the seventh largest global manufacturer of vehicles, with the production of about 3.3 million units. São Paulo is the heartland of the national automotive industry.

Ford, General Motors, Honda, Hyundai, Mercedes-Benz, Scania, Toyota, Chery, Volkswagen, to name a few, operate in the state. In 2012, São Paulo accounted for 42% of all Brazilian production. Besides leading national production, São Paulo is the fifth largest auto producer in the Americas (behind the United States, Brazil, Mexico and Canada).


I think this is one of the reasons. Ford and GM would obviously be O&D, Toyota, Chery, Honda and Hyundai could contribute some flow (SA-ASIA) through traffic. It seems like a good enough reason to operate a route.
 
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Bill737
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Re: Why is DTW-GRU so large compared to peer cities?

Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:50 pm

FWIW, approximately 7 million Brazilians ( most of which live in São Paulo ) are of Lebanese descent, and I believe Metro Detroit has a massive ME population too.
 
TWA85
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Re: Why is DTW-GRU so large compared to peer cities?

Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:01 pm

As previously mentioned, the auto industry links are a significant reason DL flies the route. Asia-GRU connections probably fill the rest of the seats. One could argue that connecting in DTW is no different than connecting in LAX or DFW, however connecting in DTW helps the auto industry traffic kill two birds with one stone. They can stop in DTW for a few days to conduct business then travel on to GRU to conduct more business. This way they don't have make two separate trips to the Americas.
 
MAH4546
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Re: Why is DTW-GRU so large compared to peer cities?

Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:03 pm

There is virtually no ethnic travel in this market. It’s auto industry and Asia connection flows that support this route.
a.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Why is DTW-GRU so large compared to peer cities?

Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:44 pm

flymco753 wrote:
Recently, I've been more observant about the DTW-GRU market. Seems like there is a lot of ethnic travel between the two cities. Detroit has a growing Brazilian population (albeit not as fast as NYC, Florida, or Atlanta).

I guess my question would be, why is this market so large and important compared to peer cities like Toronto, Chicago, Minneapolis, etc? Where and why is there a decent amount of ethnic travel between SE Mich and S.P. Brasil? I'll assume a lot of it has to do with the auto industry, but it doesn't explain the ethnic travel, why are people willing to pay that premium?

Keep it respectful or I'll report the thread and have it locked.


Detroit nor Michigan have no meaningful ethnic travel to Brazil whatsoever. Its all about the auto industry and Asia connections that make it work. Also, ORD-GRU is significantly larger than DTW-GRU.

Also Boston, not any of the markets you listed has the largest Brazilian community in the US:

Born in Brazil as of 2017:

1. Boston MSA: 63,547 people
2. Miami MSA: 60,804 people
3. New York City MSA: 48,099 people
4. Orlando MSA: 22,969 people
5. San Francisco MSA: 15,788 people
6. Los Angeles MSA: 14,607 people
7. Atlanta MSA: 13,255 people
8. Bridgeport, CT MSA: 11,443 people
9. Washington DC MSA: 11,006 people
10. Philadelphia MSA: 8750 people
11. Dallas MSA: 7412 people
12. Houston MSA: 7284 people
13. Tampa MSA: 7024 people
14. San Diego MSA: 6178 people
15. Chicago MSA: 5480 people
16. Seattle MSA: 5387 people
17. Charlotte MSA: 4408 people
18. Detroit MSA: 3710 people
19. Las Vegas MSA: 3564 people
20. San Jose MSA: 3165 people
21. Minneapolis MSA: 2831 people
22. Phoenix MSA: 2424 people
23. Riverside, CA MSA: 1690 people
24. Austin MSA: 1647 people
25. Baltimore MSA: 1637 people
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jetero
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Re: Why is DTW-GRU so large compared to peer cities?

Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:11 pm

Because DL sells 30 seats a day connecting to MCO.
 
9w748capt
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Re: Why is DTW-GRU so large compared to peer cities?

Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:39 pm

flymco753 wrote:
Recently, I've been more observant about the DTW-GRU market. Seems like there is a lot of ethnic travel between the two cities. Detroit has a growing Brazilian population (albeit not as fast as NYC, Florida, or Atlanta).

I guess my question would be, why is this market so large and important compared to peer cities like Toronto, Chicago, Minneapolis, etc? Where and why is there a decent amount of ethnic travel between SE Mich and S.P. Brasil? I'll assume a lot of it has to do with the auto industry, but it doesn't explain the ethnic travel, why are people willing to pay that premium?

Keep it respectful or I'll report the thread and have it locked.


That last sentence is still the most disrespectful part of this thread. How about you change your tone and stop accusing others of things before they've even done anything? Pot, meet kettle!
 
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flymco753
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Re: Why is DTW-GRU so large compared to peer cities?

Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:30 pm

Ok, from a source that asked not to be named showed me some data. Brazilians living in the Detroit MSA is less than 1%. This subject became irrelevant. We can close this down since my original post made no sense and there is no public data to back this up.
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thedetroitpole
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:57 pm

Whilst we are on the topic of immigration in this region, I am a Polish immigrant to the Detroit. Polish praise Detroit back in Poland, it seems like many less people are immigrating out of Poland because there is no turmoil to escape. Travel between Detroit and Poland is heavily leisure. Most of us travel with six or more people and bring large gifts over from the United States, so a high yield fare does not look attractive to us. We have found a niche by traveling to either Frankfurt or Munich and utilizing the train system to Warsaw.

Here is an article that may be in particular interest regarding this thread. We may not have a lot of current Polish immigrants anymore, but the people who are here of Polish heritage continue to put on the largest and most exciting Pole festivals in Detroit.

Here is that link: https://www.metrotimes.com/news-hits/ar ... immigrants
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:08 pm

thedetroitpole wrote:
Whilst we are on the topic of immigration in this region, I am a Polish immigrant to the Detroit. Polish praise Detroit back in Poland, it seems like many less people are immigrating out of Poland because there is no turmoil to escape. Travel between Detroit and Poland is heavily leisure. Most of us travel with six or more people and bring large gifts over from the United States, so a high yield fare does not look attractive to us. We have found a niche by traveling to either Frankfurt or Munich and utilizing the train system to Warsaw.

Here is an article that may be in particular interest regarding this thread. We may not have a lot of current Polish immigrants anymore, but the people who are here of Polish heritage continue to put on the largest and most exciting Pole festivals in Detroit.

Here is that link: https://www.metrotimes.com/news-hits/ar ... immigrants


Right there that says it all.

Detroit ranked at No. 10 on NAE's Cities Index, which measures local policies and socioeconomic outcomes across the 100 largest cities in the United States. Detroit earned a 3.78 out of 5.00 overall score, and was especially lauded for quality of life, economic empowerment, and job opportunities, which all earned scores of 5.00 out of 5.00.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:12 pm

And then there is this.

https://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/inde ... l_des.html


Top 10 Cities
•Seville, Spain
•Detroit, USA
•Canberra, Australia
•Hamburg, Germany
•Kaohsiung, Taiwan
•Antwerp, Belgium
•Matera, Italy
•San Juan, Puerto Rico
•Guanajuato, Mexico
•Oslo, Norway
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:22 pm

There's a couple of domestic 76W runs between DTW and ATL on October 15th and 27th and a domestic 332 run on October 27th. Domestic 333 MSP on Nov 15. Oct 7 is a domestic 76W to SFO & SEA.

E7W will make an appearance on the DTW-BHM/GRR/GSO routes for the first week of November.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:09 pm

thedetroitpole wrote:
Whilst we are on the topic of immigration in this region, I am a Polish immigrant to the Detroit. Polish praise Detroit back in Poland, it seems like many less people are immigrating out of Poland because there is no turmoil to escape. Travel between Detroit and Poland is heavily leisure. Most of us travel with six or more people and bring large gifts over from the United States, so a high yield fare does not look attractive to us. We have found a niche by traveling to either Frankfurt or Munich and utilizing the train system to Warsaw.

Here is an article that may be in particular interest regarding this thread. We may not have a lot of current Polish immigrants anymore, but the people who are here of Polish heritage continue to put on the largest and most exciting Pole festivals in Detroit.

Here is that link: https://www.metrotimes.com/news-hits/ar ... immigrants


Agreed that Detroit is a great city. It has every right to be praised for how far its come in recent years.

But you also did outline why there are no flights between Detroit and Poland and why there will most likely never be without drastic change (like Detroit getting all of Chicago's Polish Immigrants).

People who immigrate to Detroit almost entirely come from the Middle East and India, with a good number of Mexicans and Albanians thrown in there.
Religion is the root of evil...
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:29 pm

flymco753 wrote:
There's a couple of domestic 76W runs between DTW and ATL on October 15th and 27th and a domestic 332 run on October 27th. Domestic 333 MSP on Nov 15. Oct 7 is a domestic 76W to SFO & SEA.

E7W will make an appearance on the DTW-BHM/GRR/GSO routes for the first week of November.


They’re also rotating a 76W between SEA and SFO this month, subbing for a 753.

And for the first time since 2010, there are no widebody upgauges scheduled the Sunday after Thanksgiving this year (for DTW, at least).
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:17 pm

In case any of you are interested, here are the Detroit/Ann Arbor CSA's largest immigrant groups as of 2017. The numbers include Flint, Monroe, and Adrian as well. These represent foreign born residents only:

India: 64,842
Iraq: 54,524
Mexico: 41,375
China: 28,996
Lebanon: 25,482
Yemen: 20,539
Philippines: 15,495
Korea: 13,485
Germany: 13,017
Albania: 11,237
Poland: 10,307
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GSP psgr
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:24 am

1) I wonder if Delta might try the same approach they're taking with BOS-LIS* to DTW-DUB sooner rather than later, that is, flying a domestically configured 752 transatlantic and selling the Domestic F seats as Premium Econ as a cheap way to add transatlantic summer seasonal capacity in low J markets, to break in a route, or kill off competition/potential competition. It's an approach they could also choose to take with KEF...and well that's probably it; MAD/BCN are too far and MAN probably needs a vaguely competitive J product. I don't see them resurrecting the NW era DTW-BRU/DUS experiments anytime soon either.

As far as Asia, was DTW-HKG an even bigger dog than SEA-HKG? I sort of got the impression that while DTW-HKG wasn't doing well, part of the reason it was moved was to bolster the attractiveness of the SEA operation and allow for a smaller aircraft to be used (at the expense of a huge amount of network connectivity). Honestly, a small subfleet of 787s would fit for those long/thin Asia markets they have to have in their portfolio (HKG, SIN, India, maybe TPE, NGO, and KIX).

2) Does my memory deceive me**, or were the B gates originally designed for DC-9 sized aircraft and then converted to RJ gates later? My guess is that we'd never see that setup return, but with more 717s coming off of the NYC/LAX operations to DTW, I could see A going basically all mainline again.
Image

3) Also, I was feeling a slight tinge of nostalgia for the old DTW, and went searching for the old hub map. C was just as long and hacked together as I remember it. Here it is:

Image

*For the first time I can remember since TLV, ATL lost a transatlantic route to somewhere else.
**My memory also remembers a great Chicago style pizza place that used to be in A circa 2003.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:12 am

GSP psgr wrote:
1) I wonder if Delta might try the same approach they're taking with BOS-LIS* to DTW-DUB sooner rather than later, that is, flying a domestically configured 752 transatlantic and selling the Domestic F seats as Premium Econ as a cheap way to add transatlantic summer seasonal capacity in low J markets, to break in a route, or kill off competition/potential competition. It's an approach they could also choose to take with KEF...and well that's probably it; MAD/BCN are too far and MAN probably needs a vaguely competitive J product. I don't see them resurrecting the NW era DTW-BRU/DUS experiments anytime soon either.


Part of the failure of NW’s 757 long-haul experiment was timing (during the collapse of the local, then national, then international economy) but part of it was the embarrassing product NW put out. NW claimed it would install brand new, 777-style interiors with nose-to-tail AVOD and introduce its new, industry leading business class seat (that was suppose to be an offshot of the 787); instead, it ran a Clorex wipe through coach and installed a business class product that was so embarrassing, DL retired it as quickly as possible.

That said, while I don’t expect any significant 757 ops, I’m surprised DL never attempted a few seasonal routes with the domestic 757, such as a few weekly flights to places like DUB, EDI or LIS. And DL already operates domestic 757 to KEF from both JFK and MSP. I really don’t see them adding additional capacity there — lots of cheap fares via MSP are readily available.

As far as Asia, was DTW-HKG an even bigger dog than SEA-HKG? I sort of got the impression that while DTW-HKG wasn't doing well, part of the reason it was moved was to bolster the attractiveness of the SEA operation and allow for a smaller aircraft to be used (at the expense of a huge amount of network connectivity). Honestly, a small subfleet of 787s would fit for those long/thin Asia markets they have to have in their portfolio (HKG, SIN, India, maybe TPE, NGO, and KIX).


DL ended DTW long before it attempted a SEA gateway. I’m surprised DL didn’t attempt HKG from DTW again, given that travel via SEA is two stops for the crux of its network. No doubt SEA woud’ve been kept even if was posting modest losses — one can only assume the market is a huge dog for DL.

2) Does my memory deceive me**, or were the B gates originally designed for DC-9 sized aircraft and then converted to RJ gates later? My guess is that we'd never see that setup return, but with more 717s coming off of the NYC/LAX operations to DTW, I could see A going basically all mainline again.
Image


There were few gates on B initially; CO had three and the rest were used for the Avro RJ85. It’s possible the occasional DC-9 parked there, but definitely not common. While the gates can handle all narrowbody aircraft (CO use to regularly operate the 757 to IAH, and DL occasionally brought a 763/764 in), they definitely wern’t spaced to hold large amounts of people.

3) Also, I was feeling a slight tinge of nostalgia for the old DTW, and went searching for the old hub map. C was just as long and hacked together as I remember it. Here it is:

Image.


Sadly, even the “temporary” additions built into C had more natural light than the North does today.

**My memory also remembers a great Chicago style pizza place that used to be in A circa 2003.


Pizza Papalis, a popular local chain. The pizzas take at least 30 minutes to cook, so the DTW location only served personal pizzas that were mostly precooked. Unfortunately, it never caught on.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:28 pm

GSP psgr wrote:
1) I wonder if Delta might try the same approach they're taking with BOS-LIS* to DTW-DUB sooner rather than later, that is, flying a domestically configured 752 transatlantic and selling the Domestic F seats as Premium Econ as a cheap way to add transatlantic summer seasonal capacity in low J markets, to break in a route, or kill off competition/potential competition. It's an approach they could also choose to take with KEF...and well that's probably it; MAD/BCN are too far and MAN probably needs a vaguely competitive J product. I don't see them resurrecting the NW era DTW-BRU/DUS experiments anytime soon either.



Let's hope Delta doesn't start DTW-DUB we don't want anything getting in the way of EI entering the Detroit market. That fact of the matter is that Detroit is way better positioned to field connections from the USA to Europe than Atlanta is there is a lot more backtracking going from ATL to Europe than if they routed some of those connections over Detroit. I think Delta could make the 757 work on DTW-MAN but for some reason Delta just doesn't want to give Detroit a chance to show just how viable it is for point to point connections to Europe. What is interesting is not only has Delta moved their ATL-LIS flight to BOS but they also got ATL-MHT axed and Detroit got the HNL flight over a second ATL-HNL frequency. Perhaps Delta feels Atlanta is at it's max and realize that any extra capacity there would harm their bottom line than help it. I think they wanted more of the Portugal market but realized 2 767's was just to much capacity to get the yields they wanted. I don't think we will see DTW-KEF on Delta because they know WOW is on shaky ground and on life support but if FI picks up Detroit if and when WOW folds that could change the dynamics of DTW-KEF.
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:18 pm

compensateme wrote:
And for the first time since 2010, there are no widebody upgauges scheduled the Sunday after Thanksgiving this year (for DTW, at least).
Usually they throw in a 764 to RSW and MCO and an extra 333 to ATL. Does MSP have any post Thanksgiving widebodies?
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:41 pm

klm617 wrote:
GSP psgr wrote:
1) I wonder if Delta might try the same approach they're taking with BOS-LIS* to DTW-DUB sooner rather than later, that is, flying a domestically configured 752 transatlantic and selling the Domestic F seats as Premium Econ as a cheap way to add transatlantic summer seasonal capacity in low J markets, to break in a route, or kill off competition/potential competition. It's an approach they could also choose to take with KEF...and well that's probably it; MAD/BCN are too far and MAN probably needs a vaguely competitive J product. I don't see them resurrecting the NW era DTW-BRU/DUS experiments anytime soon either.



Let's hope Delta doesn't start DTW-DUB we don't want anything getting in the way of EI entering the Detroit market. That fact of the matter is that Detroit is way better positioned to field connections from the USA to Europe than Atlanta is there is a lot more backtracking going from ATL to Europe than if they routed some of those connections over Detroit. I think Delta could make the 757 work on DTW-MAN but for some reason Delta just doesn't want to give Detroit a chance to show just how viable it is for point to point connections to Europe. What is interesting is not only has Delta moved their ATL-LIS flight to BOS but they also got ATL-MHT axed and Detroit got the HNL flight over a second ATL-HNL frequency. Perhaps Delta feels Atlanta is at it's max and realize that any extra capacity there would harm their bottom line than help it. I think they wanted more of the Portugal market but realized 2 767's was just to much capacity to get the yields they wanted. I don't think we will see DTW-KEF on Delta because they know WOW is on shaky ground and on life support but if FI picks up Detroit if and when WOW folds that could change the dynamics of DTW-KEF.
A lot of truth to this statement. Either way, if WOW gets shut down or is purchased by FI, Detroit is going to have FI at some point in the near future. The success of WOW proves that.
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:50 pm

flymco753 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
GSP psgr wrote:
1) I wonder if Delta might try the same approach they're taking with BOS-LIS* to DTW-DUB sooner rather than later, that is, flying a domestically configured 752 transatlantic and selling the Domestic F seats as Premium Econ as a cheap way to add transatlantic summer seasonal capacity in low J markets, to break in a route, or kill off competition/potential competition. It's an approach they could also choose to take with KEF...and well that's probably it; MAD/BCN are too far and MAN probably needs a vaguely competitive J product. I don't see them resurrecting the NW era DTW-BRU/DUS experiments anytime soon either.



Let's hope Delta doesn't start DTW-DUB we don't want anything getting in the way of EI entering the Detroit market. That fact of the matter is that Detroit is way better positioned to field connections from the USA to Europe than Atlanta is there is a lot more backtracking going from ATL to Europe than if they routed some of those connections over Detroit. I think Delta could make the 757 work on DTW-MAN but for some reason Delta just doesn't want to give Detroit a chance to show just how viable it is for point to point connections to Europe. What is interesting is not only has Delta moved their ATL-LIS flight to BOS but they also got ATL-MHT axed and Detroit got the HNL flight over a second ATL-HNL frequency. Perhaps Delta feels Atlanta is at it's max and realize that any extra capacity there would harm their bottom line than help it. I think they wanted more of the Portugal market but realized 2 767's was just to much capacity to get the yields they wanted. I don't think we will see DTW-KEF on Delta because they know WOW is on shaky ground and on life support but if FI picks up Detroit if and when WOW folds that could change the dynamics of DTW-KEF.
A lot of truth to this statement. Either way, if WOW gets shut down or is purchased by FI, Detroit is going to have FI at some point in the near future. The success of WOW proves that.


There's no logic in your statement. The success of WOW? I haven't seen any proven success at this point, and, to add to that, FI and WW are completely different companies. One carrier serving a route does not guarantee that another carrier will.

All of these definitive statements about things that are predictions need to stop.

Jeremy
 
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:37 pm

SESGDL wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
klm617 wrote:


Let's hope Delta doesn't start DTW-DUB we don't want anything getting in the way of EI entering the Detroit market. That fact of the matter is that Detroit is way better positioned to field connections from the USA to Europe than Atlanta is there is a lot more backtracking going from ATL to Europe than if they routed some of those connections over Detroit. I think Delta could make the 757 work on DTW-MAN but for some reason Delta just doesn't want to give Detroit a chance to show just how viable it is for point to point connections to Europe. What is interesting is not only has Delta moved their ATL-LIS flight to BOS but they also got ATL-MHT axed and Detroit got the HNL flight over a second ATL-HNL frequency. Perhaps Delta feels Atlanta is at it's max and realize that any extra capacity there would harm their bottom line than help it. I think they wanted more of the Portugal market but realized 2 767's was just to much capacity to get the yields they wanted. I don't think we will see DTW-KEF on Delta because they know WOW is on shaky ground and on life support but if FI picks up Detroit if and when WOW folds that could change the dynamics of DTW-KEF.
A lot of truth to this statement. Either way, if WOW gets shut down or is purchased by FI, Detroit is going to have FI at some point in the near future. The success of WOW proves that.


There's no logic in your statement. The success of WOW? I haven't seen any proven success at this point, and, to add to that, FI and WW are completely different companies. One carrier serving a route does not guarantee that another carrier will.

All of these definitive statements about things that are predictions need to stop.

Jeremy
So you must know something we all don't? We're listening.
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SESGDL
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:00 pm

flymco753 wrote:
SESGDL wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
A lot of truth to this statement. Either way, if WOW gets shut down or is purchased by FI, Detroit is going to have FI at some point in the near future. The success of WOW proves that.


There's no logic in your statement. The success of WOW? I haven't seen any proven success at this point, and, to add to that, FI and WW are completely different companies. One carrier serving a route does not guarantee that another carrier will.

All of these definitive statements about things that are predictions need to stop.

Jeremy
So you must know something we all don't? We're listening.


That's the difference, I know nothing and am willing to admit that. Others know nothing and act like they know something. I'm saying that you and klm617's posts frequently pass off predictions as facts or make assumptions that are not reasonable, such as WOW continuing to serve DTW as evidence that if they went out of business that FI would take over the route. That's quite a big leap given they are different airlines with different strategies and given that WOW has not even been in the DTW market for a year.

Jeremy
 
lavalampluva
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:56 pm

flymco753 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
GSP psgr wrote:
1) I wonder if Delta might try the same approach they're taking with BOS-LIS* to DTW-DUB sooner rather than later, that is, flying a domestically configured 752 transatlantic and selling the Domestic F seats as Premium Econ as a cheap way to add transatlantic summer seasonal capacity in low J markets, to break in a route, or kill off competition/potential competition. It's an approach they could also choose to take with KEF...and well that's probably it; MAD/BCN are too far and MAN probably needs a vaguely competitive J product. I don't see them resurrecting the NW era DTW-BRU/DUS experiments anytime soon either.



Let's hope Delta doesn't start DTW-DUB we don't want anything getting in the way of EI entering the Detroit market. That fact of the matter is that Detroit is way better positioned to field connections from the USA to Europe than Atlanta is there is a lot more backtracking going from ATL to Europe than if they routed some of those connections over Detroit. I think Delta could make the 757 work on DTW-MAN but for some reason Delta just doesn't want to give Detroit a chance to show just how viable it is for point to point connections to Europe. What is interesting is not only has Delta moved their ATL-LIS flight to BOS but they also got ATL-MHT axed and Detroit got the HNL flight over a second ATL-HNL frequency. Perhaps Delta feels Atlanta is at it's max and realize that any extra capacity there would harm their bottom line than help it. I think they wanted more of the Portugal market but realized 2 767's was just to much capacity to get the yields they wanted. I don't think we will see DTW-KEF on Delta because they know WOW is on shaky ground and on life support but if FI picks up Detroit if and when WOW folds that could change the dynamics of DTW-KEF.
A lot of truth to this statement. Either way, if WOW gets shut down or is purchased by FI, Detroit is going to have FI at some point in the near future. The success of WOW proves that.

Going by WOWs website there are a lot of seats available for Thursdays flight to KEF. If you want to keep the service Detroiters better start buying seats.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:39 pm

SESGDL wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
klm617 wrote:


Let's hope Delta doesn't start DTW-DUB we don't want anything getting in the way of EI entering the Detroit market. That fact of the matter is that Detroit is way better positioned to field connections from the USA to Europe than Atlanta is there is a lot more backtracking going from ATL to Europe than if they routed some of those connections over Detroit. I think Delta could make the 757 work on DTW-MAN but for some reason Delta just doesn't want to give Detroit a chance to show just how viable it is for point to point connections to Europe. What is interesting is not only has Delta moved their ATL-LIS flight to BOS but they also got ATL-MHT axed and Detroit got the HNL flight over a second ATL-HNL frequency. Perhaps Delta feels Atlanta is at it's max and realize that any extra capacity there would harm their bottom line than help it. I think they wanted more of the Portugal market but realized 2 767's was just to much capacity to get the yields they wanted. I don't think we will see DTW-KEF on Delta because they know WOW is on shaky ground and on life support but if FI picks up Detroit if and when WOW folds that could change the dynamics of DTW-KEF.
A lot of truth to this statement. Either way, if WOW gets shut down or is purchased by FI, Detroit is going to have FI at some point in the near future. The success of WOW proves that.


There's no logic in your statement. The success of WOW? I haven't seen any proven success at this point, and, to add to that, FI and WW are completely different companies. One carrier serving a route does not guarantee that another carrier will.

All of these definitive statements about things that are predictions need to stop.

Jeremy


First of all yes you are correct if WW folds there is no guarantee that FI will pick up DTW. But the numbers don't lie WW has continued through the winter month at 4 weekly as it did through the summer and for the most part that says a lot right there being how WW has dropped and reduced routes in other markets for the winter not to mention the numbers up thread indicate that WW has been operating at or near 90% on it's flights out of Detroit. As a.net always says if it makes money then airlines will operate it and seeing how WW has enough faith in the Detroit market to load it through the winter even at a better departure time than it started with so yes I'd say DTW-KEF if working out pretty well for WW at this point.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
Luke1994
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:48 pm

lavalampluva wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
klm617 wrote:


Let's hope Delta doesn't start DTW-DUB we don't want anything getting in the way of EI entering the Detroit market. That fact of the matter is that Detroit is way better positioned to field connections from the USA to Europe than Atlanta is there is a lot more backtracking going from ATL to Europe than if they routed some of those connections over Detroit. I think Delta could make the 757 work on DTW-MAN but for some reason Delta just doesn't want to give Detroit a chance to show just how viable it is for point to point connections to Europe. What is interesting is not only has Delta moved their ATL-LIS flight to BOS but they also got ATL-MHT axed and Detroit got the HNL flight over a second ATL-HNL frequency. Perhaps Delta feels Atlanta is at it's max and realize that any extra capacity there would harm their bottom line than help it. I think they wanted more of the Portugal market but realized 2 767's was just to much capacity to get the yields they wanted. I don't think we will see DTW-KEF on Delta because they know WOW is on shaky ground and on life support but if FI picks up Detroit if and when WOW folds that could change the dynamics of DTW-KEF.
A lot of truth to this statement. Either way, if WOW gets shut down or is purchased by FI, Detroit is going to have FI at some point in the near future. The success of WOW proves that.

Going by WOWs website there are a lot of seats available for Thursdays flight to KEF. If you want to keep the service Detroiters better start buying seats.

You are aware that WW, like NK, charges for seat selection in advance, yes? I’m willing to bet that most people flying on the Thursday flight you’re talking about will be assigned a random seat at check-in.

EDIT: Just checked the BOS, DFW, and ORD flights on the same date and they’re all wide open as well. Does this mean that these 3 cities are failures for WW? No. It just further reinforces the point that one can not and should not draw conclusions on how popular or successful a flight is from airline website seating maps.
CMEL student for now...
 
lavalampluva
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:22 pm

Luke1994 wrote:
lavalampluva wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
A lot of truth to this statement. Either way, if WOW gets shut down or is purchased by FI, Detroit is going to have FI at some point in the near future. The success of WOW proves that.

Going by WOWs website there are a lot of seats available for Thursdays flight to KEF. If you want to keep the service Detroiters better start buying seats.

You are aware that WW, like NK, charges for seat selection in advance, yes? I’m willing to bet that most people flying on the Thursday flight you’re talking about will be assigned a random seat at check-in.


EDIT: Just checked the BOS, DFW, and ORD flights on the same date and they’re all wide open as well. Does this mean that these 3 cities are failures for WW? No. It just further reinforces the point that one can not and should not draw conclusions on how popular or successful a flight is from airline website seating maps.

Maybe. But it obviously means those seats are available for purchase, right? And in defense of your statement it was only a one day sampling. We just have to wait until we get the DOT report to see how the loads end up being.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:54 pm

lavalampluva wrote:
Luke1994 wrote:
lavalampluva wrote:
Going by WOWs website there are a lot of seats available for Thursdays flight to KEF. If you want to keep the service Detroiters better start buying seats.

You are aware that WW, like NK, charges for seat selection in advance, yes? I’m willing to bet that most people flying on the Thursday flight you’re talking about will be assigned a random seat at check-in.


EDIT: Just checked the BOS, DFW, and ORD flights on the same date and they’re all wide open as well. Does this mean that these 3 cities are failures for WW? No. It just further reinforces the point that one can not and should not draw conclusions on how popular or successful a flight is from airline website seating maps.

Maybe. But it obviously means those seats are available for purchase, right? And in defense of your statement it was only a one day sampling. We just have to wait until we get the DOT report to see how the loads end up being.


Here are the numbers through July per the WCAA website

WOW 9,691 - 100.0% 0.1% 0.0%

So I averaged at 52 flights in those months that being said they are carrying 187.2 passengers per flight. I'd say that's pretty good.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:01 pm

Well enplaned/deplaned LF = total monthly pax / total monthly seats

In this case the enplaned LF is 92% and deplaned is 94%.
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KGRB
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:06 am

While we are on the subject of concourses at the MacNamara, does anyone know if the airport or Delta have a master plan to demolish/rebuild/repurpose Concourse C? It had been a couple of years since I walked down C, so I took a stroll through there last week and I noticed that they have more of the concourse walled off from the general public (from about C26 to the end). What was left of C was a ghost town with only two CRJ-200s departing in the busy late morning bank. I wonder how that Subway manages to stay open with the lack of foot traffic through there. It seems to me that C could be completely shuttered and the remaining CRJ-200 departures accommodated on B, with the large RJs using both B and A.
First flight: NW DC-10 MKE-MSP December 1996
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:24 am

compensateme wrote:
There were few gates on B initially; CO had three and the rest were used for the Avro RJ85. It’s possible the occasional DC-9 parked there, but definitely not common. While the gates can handle all narrowbody aircraft (CO use to regularly operate the 757 to IAH, and DL occasionally brought a 763/764 in), they definitely wern’t spaced to hold large amounts of people.


GSP psgr wrote:
2) Does my memory deceive me**, or were the B gates originally designed for DC-9 sized aircraft and then converted to RJ gates later? My guess is that we'd never see that setup return, but with more 717s coming off of the NYC/LAX operations to DTW, I could see A going basically all mainline again.


When the McNamera / NW Worldgateway first opened in 2002, like Compensateme said was the following:

Concourse A - Mainline NW
Concourse B - NW Airlink Mesaba ARJs and CO had gates B5, B7, & B8, and also used C6 for CoEx ERJs
Concourse C - the original ground level concourse - NW Airlink SF3 & CRJs

Concourse B gates can all handle 737/A320 sized aircraft; CO regularly would park 737s and could fit in a 757 but it would close-off an adjacent gate. When DL was at the end of Concourse B, they could fit a 757 (and even a 767) into B20 due to the angled nature of the parking position.

I'm pretty sure NW never put mainline over on B as they ground handling over there was all NW Airlink / Mesaba, and they always had ample space over on A. By about 2003/2004, as the 9E CRJ fleet size increased and the DC-9 fleet decreased they started parking CRJs on B and bumped some of the ARJ's over the A gates.

In 2005, they completed the first phase of expansion which included the extension on Concourse B, then the phased reconstruction of of Concourse C into the current pod set-up at the same level of Concourse B. They retained the original Concourse C hold-room, built a new NW Worldclub over top and still use the ground-level gates with loading bridges directly accessed off the hold room.

A blast from the past....posted by, ME from March 2005
viewtopic.php?t=315239

The new extension on Concourse B opened a little over a week ago. 6 additional gates on B concourse are now being used for NW Airlink flights - CRJ's and ARJ's. CO is still operating out of B5, B7, & B8, and using C6 for CoEx ERJ flights.
DL will operate out of B18, B19, & B20 when they move over sometime this spring. The B gates are capable of handling narrowbody aircraft.

Temporary Airlink gates were added on to the end of Concourse C last fall, these additional 8 +/- hardstands are accessed by a covered walkway on the ramp that exits by gate C25.

When the extension on B opened, the gates on the west side of Concourse C were closed to allow for the construction of the new concourse. In order to compensate for lost gates, some Airlink flights have now moved to Concourse A, temporarily.

Gates 46 & 50 (widebody international gates) have been reconfigured allow for 3 parking spots for Saab's & CRJ's each. Thug giving a total of 6 gates on A. They are numbered as A46A, A46B, A46C, A50A, A50B, A50C. Generally, flights operating into these gates will be arrivals from Canada, since passengers that have not pre-cleared will be arriving directly into the customs area, eliminating the need for buses from C. This was possible since often during the day, most of the internation widebody gates are used for domestic narrowbody flights. There was plenty of excess gate capacity to allow for 2 less mainline gates.

For some time now, Mesaba has been using Gates A59, A61, & A63 for Avro flights. Now, they will also be using Gates A45 & A47, along with the B gates as needed.

Things will all revert back to normal once the new Concourse C is complete in Summer 2006. Saabs & CRJ's will use C; Avro's, CRJ's, CO, & DL will use B, and mainline will be in A.
 
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:37 am

KGRB wrote:
While we are on the subject of concourses at the MacNamara, does anyone know if the airport or Delta have a master plan to demolish/rebuild/repurpose Concourse C? It had been a couple of years since I walked down C, so I took a stroll through there last week and I noticed that they have more of the concourse walled off from the general public (from about C26 to the end). What was left of C was a ghost town with only two CRJ-200s departing in the busy late morning bank. I wonder how that Subway manages to stay open with the lack of foot traffic through there. It seems to me that C could be completely shuttered and the remaining CRJ-200 departures accommodated on B, with the large RJs using both B and A.

There is no currently no firm plan to do anything in the short to mid-term with the shuttered portion of Concourse C, other than to use the gates for DCI hardstand / RON parking and GSE storage/staging area. When DL initially proposed to shutter the north-end of Concourse C a few years ago one option was to demolish the closed portion, but the WCAA's decision firmly was no. DL had to take a write-down on the shutter portion of the terminal that still wasn't depreciated. The airport did fill-in the ramp area north of Concourse C to make an area for DL to use for hardstand / RON parking, which was needed, particularly since the 4R de-ice pad has been used for that purpose, but they can't during de-icing ops.

Concourse C is still used fairly extensively, but its a function of the highly-banked nature of DTW. In particular, during the larger banks during the big morning departure bank from 8:30-9:30, and also during the big evening departure banks at 5pm and 8pm that have significant number of CRJ-200 departures. In the early-evening, not uncommon for almost every gate on C to be used. Middle of the day the departure banks are much smaller and they don't need to use much of C. Gate utilization is pretty low though, and I'd guess the numbers are somewhere around 3-4 departures a day on average.

They have reconfigured several of the gates on C to fit CR7 or CR9 sized aircraft, but respacing and removing about every 3rd or 4th gate on each side. Some of the gates, particularly the ones that are attached to the old ground-level hold room are CRJ-200 only gates.

In the most recent master plan, there are options proposed to how they could repurpose Concourse C to fit larger aircraft if the demand ever makes it necessary. Essentially, the preffered option would be to fill-in the "nodes" between the gate pods to make for expanded hold rooms and concession areas and reconfigure the parking positions to fit up to 717 sized aircraft. However, there is no plan to do and the demand in the near term doesn't justify doing so.

TL/DR - Concourse C is still needed in reduced capacity and no plans to do anything diffferent than status-quo at this time.
 
lavalampluva
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:48 am

klm617 wrote:
lavalampluva wrote:
Luke1994 wrote:
You are aware that WW, like NK, charges for seat selection in advance, yes? I’m willing to bet that most people flying on the Thursday flight you’re talking about will be assigned a random seat at check-in.


EDIT: Just checked the BOS, DFW, and ORD flights on the same date and they’re all wide open as well. Does this mean that these 3 cities are failures for WW? No. It just further reinforces the point that one can not and should not draw conclusions on how popular or successful a flight is from airline website seating maps.

Maybe. But it obviously means those seats are available for purchase, right? And in defense of your statement it was only a one day sampling. We just have to wait until we get the DOT report to see how the loads end up being.


Here are the numbers through July per the WCAA website

WOW 9,691 - 100.0% 0.1% 0.0%

So I averaged at 52 flights in those months that being said they are carrying 187.2 passengers per flight. I'd say that's pretty good.

I’m not arguing with you. I just checked 10/4 and there are a lot of seats open. It might just be that specific flight. And no disrespect intended but I would trust the numbers from the DOT before I would WCAA.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
winginit
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:41 am

klm617 wrote:
Here are the numbers through July per the WCAA website

WOW 9,691 - 100.0% 0.1% 0.0%

So I averaged at 52 flights in those months that being said they are carrying 187.2 passengers per flight. I'd say that's pretty good.


flymco753 wrote:
Well enplaned/deplaned LF = total monthly pax / total monthly seats

In this case the enplaned LF is 92% and deplaned is 94%.


As a reminder, load factor is entirely meaningless in the context of whether or not a route is profitable for a carrier unless it's paired with fare/yield data, which we don't have. That being the case, to say that DTWKEF is proving successful for WW by way of profitability is entirely speculative and should be identified as such.

Many will recall that routes like JFKHND or ORDDEL for AA or ATLDXB for DL were jam packed with load factors that always hovered in the 90s yet they lost both of those carriers millions of dollars over the courses of their operations.

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Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos