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klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:10 pm

lavalampluva wrote:
klm617 wrote:
So with BA starting LHR-CHS that opens up a whole bunch of new possibilities at what Detroit might attract. If a market that is that far out of the box can be added anything becomes possible.

CHS paid an almost $2m financial incentive for one year. 2x a week won’t mean much of a loss to BA if it doesn’t pan out.



So here is my question. If CHS offered BA 2 million what would the airport get in return as far as revenue from the BA flight ?
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
gnakra80
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:39 pm

klm617 wrote:
So with BA starting LHR-CHS that opens up a whole bunch of new possibilities at what Detroit might attract. If a market that is that far out of the box can be added anything becomes possible.


This is your Xmas! I imagine you giddy, dreaming of 2-3X flights per week to places like Ho Chi Minh City, because you read a review about a hot, new Vietnamese restaurant. So clearly there is the sustainability of people who want to go experience it first hand.
 
2Holer4Longhaul
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:41 pm

klm617 wrote:
So with BA starting LHR-CHS that opens up a whole bunch of new possibilities at what Detroit might attract. If a market that is that far out of the box can be added anything becomes possible.

That's not an apples to apples comparison. It's not even apples to oranges. This is like comparing apples to turkeys.
Charleston is a small, touristy destination that had no TATL flights until now.
Detroit is bigger, not a tourist destination by any stretch of the word, and has robust service across both oceans.
What happens to Charleston says very little about Detroit.
"You know, if you just set out to be liked, you would be prepared to compromise on anything, wouldn't you, at any time? And you would achieve nothing!" - Margaret Thatcher
 
beerbus
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:43 pm

flymco753 wrote:
They put some rooms to feed babies in the Delta terminal. Nice to know for when my wife and I decide to visit Michigan with kids.


This might be what your spouse is looking for?

https://www.metroairport.com/terminals/ ... -restrooms
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:21 pm

2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
klm617 wrote:
So with BA starting LHR-CHS that opens up a whole bunch of new possibilities at what Detroit might attract. If a market that is that far out of the box can be added anything becomes possible.

That's not an apples to apples comparison. It's not even apples to oranges. This is like comparing apples to turkeys.
Charleston is a small, touristy destination that had no TATL flights until now.
Detroit is bigger, not a tourist destination by any stretch of the word, and has robust service across both oceans.
What happens to Charleston says very little about Detroit.


Actually no that's not true Northern Michigan is very touristy in the summer months why do you think TVC has a big build up of flights in the summer some of the best beaches in the country. Detroit is the perfect airport to take a flight to if you want to vacation in Northern Michigan which a lot of people do. Endless golf courses and vineyards not to mention Mackinac Island. People have to get out of that mindset that Detroit is just Detroit. Michigan is so much more than just Detroit.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
lavalampluva
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:34 pm

klm617 wrote:
lavalampluva wrote:
klm617 wrote:
So with BA starting LHR-CHS that opens up a whole bunch of new possibilities at what Detroit might attract. If a market that is that far out of the box can be added anything becomes possible.

CHS paid an almost $2m financial incentive for one year. 2x a week won’t mean much of a loss to BA if it doesn’t pan out.



So here is my question. If CHS offered BA 2 million what would the airport get in return as far as revenue from the BA flight ?

Possibly landing fees. Flyers spend money at airports. It’s seasonal and CHS is an area which attracts tourists.

It’s a spend money to make money kinda thing. The bigger question is what will happen Year Two when there is no incentive money remaining.
Last edited by lavalampluva on Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:34 pm

beerbus wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
They put some rooms to feed babies in the Delta terminal. Nice to know for when my wife and I decide to visit Michigan with kids.


This might be what your spouse is looking for?

https://www.metroairport.com/terminals/ ... -restrooms
Yes! Nursing rooms will be very helpful.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
gnakra80
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:58 pm

klm617 wrote:
2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
klm617 wrote:
So with BA starting LHR-CHS that opens up a whole bunch of new possibilities at what Detroit might attract. If a market that is that far out of the box can be added anything becomes possible.

That's not an apples to apples comparison. It's not even apples to oranges. This is like comparing apples to turkeys.
Charleston is a small, touristy destination that had no TATL flights until now.
Detroit is bigger, not a tourist destination by any stretch of the word, and has robust service across both oceans.
What happens to Charleston says very little about Detroit.


Actually no that's not true Northern Michigan is very touristy in the summer months why do you think TVC has a big build up of flights in the summer some of the best beaches in the country. Detroit is the perfect airport to take a flight to if you want to vacation in Northern Michigan which a lot of people do. Endless golf courses and vineyards not to mention Mackinac Island. People have to get out of that mindset that Detroit is just Detroit. Michigan is so much more than just Detroit.



Correct, and you can fly into Detroit or Chicago and drive up there.
 
2Holer4Longhaul
Posts: 374
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:50 am

klm617 wrote:
2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
klm617 wrote:
So with BA starting LHR-CHS that opens up a whole bunch of new possibilities at what Detroit might attract. If a market that is that far out of the box can be added anything becomes possible.

That's not an apples to apples comparison. It's not even apples to oranges. This is like comparing apples to turkeys.
Charleston is a small, touristy destination that had no TATL flights until now.
Detroit is bigger, not a tourist destination by any stretch of the word, and has robust service across both oceans.
What happens to Charleston says very little about Detroit.


Actually no that's not true Northern Michigan is very touristy in the summer months why do you think TVC has a big build up of flights in the summer some of the best beaches in the country. Detroit is the perfect airport to take a flight to if you want to vacation in Northern Michigan which a lot of people do. Endless golf courses and vineyards not to mention Mackinac Island. People have to get out of that mindset that Detroit is just Detroit. Michigan is so much more than just Detroit.

Detroit isn't the perfect airport to go there. It's one of the nearest major airports with developed service, which visitors may choose to fly into and then drive. In that regard, it's not much more relevant to Mackinac Island than Chicago is. It's an airport that you can go to these areas from, not THE airport
"You know, if you just set out to be liked, you would be prepared to compromise on anything, wouldn't you, at any time? And you would achieve nothing!" - Margaret Thatcher
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:07 am

2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
klm617 wrote:
2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
That's not an apples to apples comparison. It's not even apples to oranges. This is like comparing apples to turkeys.
Charleston is a small, touristy destination that had no TATL flights until now.
Detroit is bigger, not a tourist destination by any stretch of the word, and has robust service across both oceans.
What happens to Charleston says very little about Detroit.


Actually no that's not true Northern Michigan is very touristy in the summer months why do you think TVC has a big build up of flights in the summer some of the best beaches in the country. Detroit is the perfect airport to take a flight to if you want to vacation in Northern Michigan which a lot of people do. Endless golf courses and vineyards not to mention Mackinac Island. People have to get out of that mindset that Detroit is just Detroit. Michigan is so much more than just Detroit.

Detroit isn't the perfect airport to go there. It's one of the nearest major airports with developed service, which visitors may choose to fly into and then drive. In that regard, it's not much more relevant to Mackinac Island than Chicago is. It's an airport that you can go to these areas from, not THE airport


Actually DTW is much more convenient because it is connected by a freeway all the way to Northern Michigan while driving from Chicago to Northern Michigan is only connected by a highways but no direct freeway access. Half of the distance between DTW and MCD has a speed limit of 75 mph while most of the distance between ORD and MCD is at 55 mph so DTW is much better connected to the Northern Michigan tourist areas than ORD is. Detroit is actually 2 hours shorter in drive time than ORD
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:48 am

The late afternoon and evening departure banks are very busy for DTW. Like tonight, concourse A was crazy busy between 7-8pm as that is one of the biggest departure banks all day. While it may not seem like much, DL is up 1% YOY at DTW.

Like most airports there is noticable difference depending on day of the week. Sunday evening, Monday morning, Thursday evening, Friday afternoon & evening are the busiest travel periods and it’s noticeable in the airport.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:00 am

My thoughts on my week are of air travel:

Flying out early Wednesday morning the airport is relatively quiet. I avoid Monday mornings if at all possible.

Finally flew on an DL A321 for the first time this week, to DCA. A very nice airplane that has some nice seats and feels good to fly on. I’m no fan of the 739, but I like the DL 321. Sat in row 13 the L2 exit row that has crazy leg room, and it’s a worthy replacement for domestic 757, and I love the CFM engine sound on the 318,320,321 aircraft.

I was surprised that DL has a 321 on DTW-DCA; my flight in. Wednesday morning was super empty with at best 100 passengers.

The remodeled DCA sky club is super nice, and the food options are great compared to a lot of other Sky clubs.

I had to fly UAX elsewhere out of IAD and there operation is a joke there. You forget how good we have it with DCI carriers and the coordination with mainlinenandnfar superior facilities.
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:39 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
The late afternoon and evening departure banks are very busy for DTW. Like tonight, concourse A was crazy busy between 7-8pm as that is one of the biggest departure banks all day. While it may not seem like much, DL is up 1% YOY at DTW.

Like most airports there is noticable difference depending on day of the week. Sunday evening, Monday morning, Thursday evening, Friday afternoon & evening are the busiest travel periods and it’s noticeable in the airport.


You're right 1% is a joke for a hub that is suppose to be the 2nd largest hub in the network when commercial aviation is growing at a greater pace. What this is is nothing more than capacity control in the Detroit market. Keeping the operation just big enough to scare the competition away and manage the capacity in your favor price wise that's not how the free market works. But anyway you know my feelings on how Detroit hinders this market as far as growth and competition is. While yes Delta give Detroit a lot it wouldn't have if it wasn't for them but it also stands in the way of significant growth here. Just take Boston for example they added KL, KE BOS-EDI and BOS-LIS but yet we can't even get one new international link out of Delta. You may feel 1% is acceptable but not me. Detroit keeps slipping year after year in the airport rankings giving it a negative perception of the market world wide that the market is shrinking when it's not it's just being manipulated by Delta.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
lavalampluva
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:58 am

klm617 wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
The late afternoon and evening departure banks are very busy for DTW. Like tonight, concourse A was crazy busy between 7-8pm as that is one of the biggest departure banks all day. While it may not seem like much, DL is up 1% YOY at DTW.

Like most airports there is noticable difference depending on day of the week. Sunday evening, Monday morning, Thursday evening, Friday afternoon & evening are the busiest travel periods and it’s noticeable in the airport.


You're right 1% is a joke for a hub that is suppose to be the 2nd largest hub in the network when commercial aviation is growing at a greater pace. What this is is nothing more than capacity control in the Detroit market. Keeping the operation just big enough to scare the competition away and manage the capacity in your favor price wise that's not how the free market works. But anyway you know my feelings on how Detroit hinders this market as far as growth and competition is. While yes Delta give Detroit a lot it wouldn't have if it wasn't for them but it also stands in the way of significant growth here. Just take Boston for example they added KL, KE BOS-EDI and BOS-LIS but yet we can't even get one new international link out of Delta. You may feel 1% is acceptable but not me. Detroit keeps slipping year after year in the airport rankings giving it a negative perception of the market world wide that the market is shrinking when it's not it's just being manipulated by Delta.

You got KEF from WW. And you are one location who didn’t lose it with the cuts. MCO just lost GRU, you didn’t. If DL hates DTW as much as you think they do they could just move your international flights to another hub and no one would notice. Just because you don’t get international destinations on a regular basis doesn’t mean that the market is being controlled. You already have flights to AMS and ICN. Maybe KL and KE are not ready to switch flights over...yet. KE is most likely making a large wide body purchase soon. Maybe you’ll get one of them.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:14 pm

lavalampluva wrote:
klm617 wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
The late afternoon and evening departure banks are very busy for DTW. Like tonight, concourse A was crazy busy between 7-8pm as that is one of the biggest departure banks all day. While it may not seem like much, DL is up 1% YOY at DTW.

Like most airports there is noticable difference depending on day of the week. Sunday evening, Monday morning, Thursday evening, Friday afternoon & evening are the busiest travel periods and it’s noticeable in the airport.


You're right 1% is a joke for a hub that is suppose to be the 2nd largest hub in the network when commercial aviation is growing at a greater pace. What this is is nothing more than capacity control in the Detroit market. Keeping the operation just big enough to scare the competition away and manage the capacity in your favor price wise that's not how the free market works. But anyway you know my feelings on how Detroit hinders this market as far as growth and competition is. While yes Delta give Detroit a lot it wouldn't have if it wasn't for them but it also stands in the way of significant growth here. Just take Boston for example they added KL, KE BOS-EDI and BOS-LIS but yet we can't even get one new international link out of Delta. You may feel 1% is acceptable but not me. Detroit keeps slipping year after year in the airport rankings giving it a negative perception of the market world wide that the market is shrinking when it's not it's just being manipulated by Delta.

You got KEF from WW. And you are one location who didn’t lose it with the cuts. MCO just lost GRU, you didn’t. If DL hates DTW as much as you think they do they could just move your international flights to another hub and no one would notice. Just because you don’t get international destinations on a regular basis doesn’t mean that the market is being controlled. You already have flights to AMS and ICN. Maybe KL and KE are not ready to switch flights over...yet. KE is most likely making a large wide body purchase soon. Maybe you’ll get one of them.


You are right about WOW and that's pretty profound being they are in the cash crisis that they are that they should hang onto a market like DTW where so many have said that there is no room for growth here and that we should be glad for what we have. As far as Delta goes they can do better in Detroit and JAX is proof of that how many other markets are the choking of potential on out of DTW because they are the only game in town. I would suggest the MAN, DUB, VPS and SRQ that I can think of off the top of my head. I don't think I ever said Delta hates Detroit but they can do a lot better.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:38 pm

lavalampluva wrote:
... If DL hates DTW as much as you think they do they could just move your international flights to another hub and no one would notice. ...


I don't think DL hates DTW, it just milks a captive market to the maximum.

1) Constant negative news about the City of Detroit (most of it not true) extended to entire Metro Detroit and the State of Michigan
2) SkyTeam exclusive McNamara Terminal are the two other factors DTW is reaching its full potential.
3) WCAA's unwillingness to incentivize or even to compete
4) Aggressive marketing by other airport authorities.

There was a comment upthread claiming Michigan is not a tourist destination.

Mackinac Island - 2018 Trip advisor's top destination
Avg. Summer Nightly Hotel Rate: $347
Avg. Summer Domestic Round-trip Airfare: $476 (to Cherry Capital Airport/TVC)
Avg. Summer Week Expense Per Person: $2,905
https://tripadvisor.mediaroom.com/2018- ... For-Summer

National Geographic calls Sleeping Bear Dunes one of the world's best beaches
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/trav ... tname=none

National Geographic on Michigan tourism
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/trav ... tname=none
All posts are just opinions.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:07 pm

DL may be going year round on SRQ, but I believe it's at the pressure of the low cost carriers. With F9 opening SRQ and the potential for NK to do SRQ seasonally, DL should operate this flight at least once a week, because some ULCC is going to add it. See JAX as an example.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
tys777
Moderator
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:58 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
lavalampluva wrote:
... If DL hates DTW as much as you think they do they could just move your international flights to another hub and no one would notice. ...


I don't think DL hates DTW, it just milks a captive market to the maximum.

1) Constant negative news about the City of Detroit (most of it not true) extended to entire Metro Detroit and the State of Michigan
2) SkyTeam exclusive McNamara Terminal are the two other factors DTW is reaching its full potential.
3) WCAA's unwillingness to incentivize or even to compete
4) Aggressive marketing by other airport authorities.

There was a comment upthread claiming Michigan is not a tourist destination.

Mackinac Island - 2018 Trip advisor's top destination
Avg. Summer Nightly Hotel Rate: $347
Avg. Summer Domestic Round-trip Airfare: $476 (to Cherry Capital Airport/TVC)
Avg. Summer Week Expense Per Person: $2,905
https://tripadvisor.mediaroom.com/2018- ... For-Summer

National Geographic calls Sleeping Bear Dunes one of the world's best beaches
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/trav ... tname=none

National Geographic on Michigan tourism
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/trav ... tname=none


Except DTW is not the gateway airport for most of Michigan's tourism, hence why TVC is so popular. Also, the dunes area is mostly families driving from Detroit or Chicago. It's not something that's going to drive a large amount of air traffic.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:13 pm

Michigan has a very significant amount of tourism but we aren't in the top 10, and may barely even make the top 20 states in regards of tourism revenue.

The vast majority of tourism is in-state and regionally-driven from states within a day's drive of most destinations. The amount of out-of-state tourism is increasing but we are nowhere near the heavy-hitters with sun/beach markets & resorts, mountains, or big coastal cities.

Also up north is awesome, but its the type of places that lends to people driving. To haul people/families, outdoor gear, and to get around everywhere. Its not the type of place you just fly into to enjoy a vacation and one-stop / all-inclusive place. I laugh when some of naive clueless millennial co-workers go up north and are shocked they can't find an Uber in Gaylord or Petoskey.
 
DTWorld
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:06 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Michigan has a very significant amount of tourism but we aren't in the top 10, and may barely even make the top 20 states in regards of tourism revenue.

The vast majority of tourism is in-state and regionally-driven from states within a day's drive of most destinations. The amount of out-of-state tourism is increasing but we are nowhere near the heavy-hitters with sun/beach markets & resorts, mountains, or big coastal cities.

Also up north is awesome, but its the type of places that lends to people driving. To haul people/families, outdoor gear, and to get around everywhere. It is not the type of place you just fly into to enjoy a vacation and one-stop/all-inclusive place. I laugh when some of the naive clueless millennial co-workers go up north and are shocked they can't find an Uber in Gaylord or Petoskey.


Agreed on all fronts, although I was impressed that my cousin could get a Lyft from Petoskey to our cabin south of Cheboygan
 
flyinryan99
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:32 pm

AS flight 792 diverted to TOL this afternoon... https://flightaware.com/live/flight/ASA792
Was coming in about the time the strong winds and storms were rolling thru.
 
dtw9
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:10 pm

DLH 442/443 was a 747-8 today and Air France is a 77W
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:35 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
lavalampluva wrote:
... If DL hates DTW as much as you think they do they could just move your international flights to another hub and no one would notice. ...


I don't think DL hates DTW, it just milks a captive market to the maximum.

1) Constant negative news about the City of Detroit (most of it not true) extended to entire Metro Detroit and the State of Michigan
2) SkyTeam exclusive McNamara Terminal are the two other factors DTW is reaching its full potential.
3) WCAA's unwillingness to incentivize or even to compete
4) Aggressive marketing by other airport authorities.

There was a comment upthread claiming Michigan is not a tourist destination.

Mackinac Island - 2018 Trip advisor's top destination
Avg. Summer Nightly Hotel Rate: $347
Avg. Summer Domestic Round-trip Airfare: $476 (to Cherry Capital Airport/TVC)
Avg. Summer Week Expense Per Person: $2,905
https://tripadvisor.mediaroom.com/2018- ... For-Summer

National Geographic calls Sleeping Bear Dunes one of the world's best beaches
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/trav ... tname=none

National Geographic on Michigan tourism
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/trav ... tname=none


For me the airport gets an F in marketing. I don't think they get out there near enough and talk up Detroit DTW and the surrounding area. This might be in part due to Delta as they don't want to be perceived by their largest tenant as aggressively trying to bring in competition for their hub carrier but if I am the WCAA your primary concern should be growing this market. The airport is not out there in the public eye drumming up support for new markets that could be served from the airport the approach they are using is more apathetic than aggressive than it should be. Sure most say that taking you market up doesn't help but that's all well and good but that doesn't mean you should be out there at every opportunity pushing this market out there into the light. Sure Detroit may have a negative image but if you don't go out there and say the opposite and reinforce that Detroit is a great place to be then you will never change the perception of our region. So marketing is by far the airport's biggest short fall MSP got EI without incentives and Detroit should be able to do the same.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
lavalampluva
Posts: 1433
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:33 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:52 pm

klm617 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
lavalampluva wrote:
... If DL hates DTW as much as you think they do they could just move your international flights to another hub and no one would notice. ...


I don't think DL hates DTW, it just milks a captive market to the maximum.

1) Constant negative news about the City of Detroit (most of it not true) extended to entire Metro Detroit and the State of Michigan
2) SkyTeam exclusive McNamara Terminal are the two other factors DTW is reaching its full potential.
3) WCAA's unwillingness to incentivize or even to compete
4) Aggressive marketing by other airport authorities.

There was a comment upthread claiming Michigan is not a tourist destination.

Mackinac Island - 2018 Trip advisor's top destination
Avg. Summer Nightly Hotel Rate: $347
Avg. Summer Domestic Round-trip Airfare: $476 (to Cherry Capital Airport/TVC)
Avg. Summer Week Expense Per Person: $2,905
https://tripadvisor.mediaroom.com/2018- ... For-Summer

National Geographic calls Sleeping Bear Dunes one of the world's best beaches
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/trav ... tname=none

National Geographic on Michigan tourism
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/trav ... tname=none


For me the airport gets an F in marketing. I don't think they get out there near enough and talk up Detroit DTW and the surrounding area. This might be in part due to Delta as they don't want to be perceived by their largest tenant as aggressively trying to bring in competition for their hub carrier but if I am the WCAA your primary concern should be growing this market. The airport is not out there in the public eye drumming up support for new markets that could be served from the airport the approach they are using is more apathetic than aggressive than it should be. Sure most say that taking you market up doesn't help but that's all well and good but that doesn't mean you should be out there at every opportunity pushing this market out there into the light. Sure Detroit may have a negative image but if you don't go out there and say the opposite and reinforce that Detroit is a great place to be then you will never change the perception of our region. So marketing is by far the airport's biggest short fall MSP got EI without incentives and Detroit should be able to do the same.

Talking up an area probably helps. But you have to back it up. My question is why wouldn’t the WCAA want to bring in carriers? I find it odd that some actually resort to financial incentives. For example unless CHS really markets the flight and the area BA will pull out after a year. But then it’s only 2x a week so just about any medium size market should be able to handle it. One of the boosts MSP has is the number of biomedical business with operations in Ireland. I guess they used it the same way that DTW uses the auto industry.

I’m not sure who is on the board at WCAA, but if you’re not happy with their efforts, then you should do something about it. Going on a forum and having a fit won’t bring carriers in.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
winginit
Posts: 3067
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:05 pm

klm617 wrote:
Detroit keeps slipping year after year in the airport rankings


I'm perplexed as to why you think 'slipping in the airport rankings' matters. And what rankings are you referring to? Busiest airports by passenger boardings? Who, apart from die-hard enthusiasts, looks at those rankings and numbers? Why do they matter to you?

klm617 wrote:
For me the airport gets an F in marketing. I don't think they get out there near enough and talk up Detroit DTW and the surrounding area. This might be in part due to Delta as they don't want to be perceived by their largest tenant as aggressively trying to bring in competition for their hub carrier but if I am the WCAA your primary concern should be growing this market. The airport is not out there in the public eye drumming up support for new markets that could be served from the airport the approach they are using is more apathetic than aggressive than it should be. Sure most say that taking you market up doesn't help but that's all well and good but that doesn't mean you should be out there at every opportunity pushing this market out there into the light. Sure Detroit may have a negative image but if you don't go out there and say the opposite and reinforce that Detroit is a great place to be then you will never change the perception of our region. So marketing is by far the airport's biggest short fall MSP got EI without incentives and Detroit should be able to do the same.


Be clear as to what you're asking for here. What do you mean by marketing? Do you want to see ads for DTW airport on bus benches in Dublin or in front of BA headquarters? Are you saying that the airport should offer richer financial incentives to potential carriers? Saying 'they get an F in marketing' is too vague to draw conclusions from. If you were in front of the WCAA Air Service Team right now, what specifically would you ask for?
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:16 pm

winginit wrote:
If you were in front of the WCAA Air Service Team right now, what specifically would you ask for?


That question is very simple.

When every other US airport is pushing FAA definition of "incentive" to "borderline subsidies", what are you offering to airlines to start new service?
All posts are just opinions.
 
lavalampluva
Posts: 1433
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:33 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:51 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
winginit wrote:
If you were in front of the WCAA Air Service Team right now, what specifically would you ask for?


That question is very simple.

When every other US airport is pushing FAA definition of "incentive" to "borderline subsidies", what are you offering to airlines to start new service?

Why are financial incentives even necessary? A lot of new airline service starts without it. If the area is so great and the market and demand so strong it shouldn’t necessary to throw money at airlines.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
winginit
Posts: 3067
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:04 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
winginit wrote:
If you were in front of the WCAA Air Service Team right now, what specifically would you ask for?


That question is very simple.

When every other US airport is pushing FAA definition of "incentive" to "borderline subsidies", what are you offering to airlines to start new service?


Would their answer or counter-question not be equally simple?

"Have you read the official documentation of exactly what we've authorized for air service incentives?"
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:25 pm

winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Detroit keeps slipping year after year in the airport rankings


I'm perplexed as to why you think 'slipping in the airport rankings' matters. And what rankings are you referring to? Busiest airports by passenger boardings? Who, apart from die-hard enthusiasts, looks at those rankings and numbers? Why do they matter to you?

klm617 wrote:
For me the airport gets an F in marketing. I don't think they get out there near enough and talk up Detroit DTW and the surrounding area. This might be in part due to Delta as they don't want to be perceived by their largest tenant as aggressively trying to bring in competition for their hub carrier but if I am the WCAA your primary concern should be growing this market. The airport is not out there in the public eye drumming up support for new markets that could be served from the airport the approach they are using is more apathetic than aggressive than it should be. Sure most say that taking you market up doesn't help but that's all well and good but that doesn't mean you should be out there at every opportunity pushing this market out there into the light. Sure Detroit may have a negative image but if you don't go out there and say the opposite and reinforce that Detroit is a great place to be then you will never change the perception of our region. So marketing is by far the airport's biggest short fall MSP got EI without incentives and Detroit should be able to do the same.


Be clear as to what you're asking for here. What do you mean by marketing? Do you want to see ads for DTW airport on bus benches in Dublin or in front of BA headquarters? Are you saying that the airport should offer richer financial incentives to potential carriers? Saying 'they get an F in marketing' is too vague to draw conclusions from. If you were in front of the WCAA Air Service Team right now, what specifically would you ask for?


First of all if numbers and rankings didn't matter why publish the numbers at all. They do matter you yourself should know this as the numbers and data person that you are. Good numbers drive growth. When companies see growth it raises eye brows and they want to be part of it so airport ranking does matter or we wouldn't hear over and over again about that Atlanta is the busiest airport in the world. As far as marketing the last forward thinking thing the airport has done was the DTW-DXB petition while it may not directly helps getting an airline to start a route it get's people talking about it and engaged in the topic. It get's the news media to maybe do a piece about it on TV or the newspaper. Secondly when carriers talk about Detroit in their future plans keep holding their feet to the fire bring it up over and over again mention the airlines by name like QR, DY and EI keep talking it up in public when ever you can. Just like the DTW-DUB article don't say things like we hope this happens soon now that it's being talked about be more matter of fact like we are working with airline diligently to make DTW-DUB happen sooner rather than later be aggressive and less passive. WOW Air staying in Detroit is the first time in forever that Detroit was able to stand tall over much bigger markets and get something that other airports couldn't hold onto and that's amazing that should be talked up the airport should be out there doing whatever it can to put WOW in the spot light for having faith in Detroit to be part of their future plans (If they have much of a future) when they are struggling to stay a float. You have to engage people remember this is a huge Delta market where most think that's their only option we have to plant seeds in their heads that hey there are other options out there besides Detroit. I'd venture to say that most people outside of the USA don't even know there is a Delta outside of ATL how Detroit is a much better option for connections than Atlanta is make the slogan if your choosing Delta as your travel partner make Detroit your preferred connection airport. Let's face it if the airport can blow a million dollars at a contractor that basically ripped them of they can hire a marketing firm that can market the airport and region in a more effective way and get returns on that money that will more than cover the initial investment. While yes I believe that incentives should not make or break it's a sad reality of the business world today and yes some airlines come in and take the money and then leave I think that WOW Air's decision to stay in Detroit is a good indicator that Detroit is very viable beyond any incentives paid. After all can you name the last airline that entered the Detroit market and then dropped it because it didn't work. The only ones I can think of off the top of my head are FI in 1986, SN in 1988 FL in the 1980's not sure of the year and BA in 2008 something that says a lot right there. Even with FL there were profitable but the business plan changed and DTW was not part of their new direction.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Oct 21, 2018 1:29 pm

KLM617, how often to you actually fly and how often do you use anybody other than DL?
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Oct 21, 2018 1:42 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
KLM617, how often to you actually fly and how often do you use anybody other than DL?



Probably 75% Delta and 25% American. It's kind of hard to avoid Delta in this market but I assure you if there were alternatives that saved me a significant amount of money I would use them in a heart beat. The problem right now for me with WOW is I usually make my plans 6 months in advance and at the moment that's not a very safe bet when you have to be some where. So for the moment WOW doesn't fit my travel plans but it doesn't stop me from running their name up the flagpole as often as I can. And for me yes reliability has it's worth in some cases I can't be booking a WOW flight if I need to be some where like meeting a cruise but if I were doing a week in Iceland on vacation yes I would use them as there is no connection involved thus eliminating most of the risk. I fly at least 2 times a year so no I don't travel as often as most of you but then I also pay for all my own travel.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
redtailmsp
Posts: 211
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Oct 21, 2018 1:43 pm

klm617 wrote:

First of all if numbers and rankings didn't matter why publish the numbers at all. They do matter you yourself should know this as the numbers and data person that you are. Good numbers drive growth. When companies see growth it raises eye brows and they want to be part of it so airport ranking does matter or we wouldn't hear over and over again about that Atlanta is the busiest airport in the world. As far as marketing the last forward thinking thing the airport has done was the DTW-DXB petition while it may not directly helps getting an airline to start a route it get's people talking about it and engaged in the topic. It get's the news media to maybe do a piece about it on TV or the newspaper. Secondly when carriers talk about Detroit in their future plans keep holding their feet to the fire bring it up over and over again mention the airlines by name like QR, DY and EI keep talking it up in public when ever you can. Just like the DTW-DUB article don't say things like we hope this happens soon now that it's being talked about be more matter of fact like we are working with airline diligently to make DTW-DUB happen sooner rather than later be aggressive and less passive. WOW Air staying in Detroit is the first time in forever that Detroit was able to stand tall over much bigger markets and get something that other airports couldn't hold onto and that's amazing that should be talked up the airport should be out there doing whatever it can to put WOW in the spot light for having faith in Detroit to be part of their future plans (If they have much of a future) when they are struggling to stay a float. You have to engage people remember this is a huge Delta market where most think that's their only option we have to plant seeds in their heads that hey there are other options out there besides Detroit. I'd venture to say that most people outside of the USA don't even know there is a Delta outside of ATL how Detroit is a much better option for connections than Atlanta is make the slogan if your choosing Delta as your travel partner make Detroit your preferred connection airport. Let's face it if the airport can blow a million dollars at a contractor that basically ripped them of they can hire a marketing firm that can market the airport and region in a more effective way and get returns on that money that will more than cover the initial investment. While yes I believe that incentives should not make or break it's a sad reality of the business world today and yes some airlines come in and take the money and then leave I think that WOW Air's decision to stay in Detroit is a good indicator that Detroit is very viable beyond any incentives paid. After all can you name the last airline that entered the Detroit market and then dropped it because it didn't work. The only ones I can think of off the top of my head are FI in 1986, SN in 1988 FL in the 1980's not sure of the year and BA in 2008 something that says a lot right there. Even with FL there were profitable but the business plan changed and DTW was not part of their new direction.


I just tried to read this last blurb that you have written. I honestly tried to read it three times, and I gave up. You may well have some good points buried in there somewhere. However, it is almost impossible to read and understand what you are trying to say. Your streaming together of all sorts of statements (which may or may not be linked) into one monster paragraph, coupled with lack of grammar or punctuation make it almost impossible to read.

May I suggest that you take a deep breath before you start writing anything. The way you write looks like nothing more than a rant that gets longer and longer and longer the more spooled up you get. In short, you need to take a moment to really think about what you are attempting to state, and don't go off on tangents or repeat yourself over and over. Then please proof read it at least once. Then edit it and reword it so that you have short, concise sentences and paragraphs. Please do this everytime before you hit the submit button. You never know, it may lead to some people reading and actually understanding what you are saying rather than just rolling their eyes and writing it off as just another rant.
 
winginit
Posts: 3067
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:26 pm

klm617 wrote:
First of all if numbers and rankings didn't matter why publish the numbers at all. They do matter you yourself should know this as the numbers and data person that you are. Good numbers drive growth. When companies see growth it raises eye brows and they want to be part of it so airport ranking does matter or we wouldn't hear over and over again about that Atlanta is the busiest airport in the world. As far as marketing the last forward thinking thing the airport has done was the DTW-DXB petition while it may not directly helps getting an airline to start a route it get's people talking about it and engaged in the topic. It get's the news media to maybe do a piece about it on TV or the newspaper. Secondly when carriers talk about Detroit in their future plans keep holding their feet to the fire bring it up over and over again mention the airlines by name like QR, DY and EI keep talking it up in public when ever you can. Just like the DTW-DUB article don't say things like we hope this happens soon now that it's being talked about be more matter of fact like we are working with airline diligently to make DTW-DUB happen sooner rather than later be aggressive and less passive. WOW Air staying in Detroit is the first time in forever that Detroit was able to stand tall over much bigger markets and get something that other airports couldn't hold onto and that's amazing that should be talked up the airport should be out there doing whatever it can to put WOW in the spot light for having faith in Detroit to be part of their future plans (If they have much of a future) when they are struggling to stay a float. You have to engage people remember this is a huge Delta market where most think that's their only option we have to plant seeds in their heads that hey there are other options out there besides Detroit. I'd venture to say that most people outside of the USA don't even know there is a Delta outside of ATL how Detroit is a much better option for connections than Atlanta is make the slogan if your choosing Delta as your travel partner make Detroit your preferred connection airport. Let's face it if the airport can blow a million dollars at a contractor that basically ripped them of they can hire a marketing firm that can market the airport and region in a more effective way and get returns on that money that will more than cover the initial investment. While yes I believe that incentives should not make or break it's a sad reality of the business world today and yes some airlines come in and take the money and then leave I think that WOW Air's decision to stay in Detroit is a good indicator that Detroit is very viable beyond any incentives paid. After all can you name the last airline that entered the Detroit market and then dropped it because it didn't work. The only ones I can think of off the top of my head are FI in 1986, SN in 1988 FL in the 1980's not sure of the year and BA in 2008 something that says a lot right there. Even with FL there were profitable but the business plan changed and DTW was not part of their new direction.


I literally could not summarize what you've said there even if I dedicated an hour to the task. You must have at least four sentences there of 50 words or more, and I'm pretty sure one has 80+ words. If you want to be taken seriously, please learn to proof-read. Once you've garnered proficiency in writing English we can speak intelligently to the situation at hand.
 
User avatar
klm617
Posts: 5460
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:23 pm

winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:
First of all if numbers and rankings didn't matter why publish the numbers at all. They do matter you yourself should know this as the numbers and data person that you are. Good numbers drive growth. When companies see growth it raises eye brows and they want to be part of it so airport ranking does matter or we wouldn't hear over and over again about that Atlanta is the busiest airport in the world. As far as marketing the last forward thinking thing the airport has done was the DTW-DXB petition while it may not directly helps getting an airline to start a route it get's people talking about it and engaged in the topic. It get's the news media to maybe do a piece about it on TV or the newspaper. Secondly when carriers talk about Detroit in their future plans keep holding their feet to the fire bring it up over and over again mention the airlines by name like QR, DY and EI keep talking it up in public when ever you can. Just like the DTW-DUB article don't say things like we hope this happens soon now that it's being talked about be more matter of fact like we are working with airline diligently to make DTW-DUB happen sooner rather than later be aggressive and less passive. WOW Air staying in Detroit is the first time in forever that Detroit was able to stand tall over much bigger markets and get something that other airports couldn't hold onto and that's amazing that should be talked up the airport should be out there doing whatever it can to put WOW in the spot light for having faith in Detroit to be part of their future plans (If they have much of a future) when they are struggling to stay a float. You have to engage people remember this is a huge Delta market where most think that's their only option we have to plant seeds in their heads that hey there are other options out there besides Detroit. I'd venture to say that most people outside of the USA don't even know there is a Delta outside of ATL how Detroit is a much better option for connections than Atlanta is make the slogan if your choosing Delta as your travel partner make Detroit your preferred connection airport. Let's face it if the airport can blow a million dollars at a contractor that basically ripped them of they can hire a marketing firm that can market the airport and region in a more effective way and get returns on that money that will more than cover the initial investment. While yes I believe that incentives should not make or break it's a sad reality of the business world today and yes some airlines come in and take the money and then leave I think that WOW Air's decision to stay in Detroit is a good indicator that Detroit is very viable beyond any incentives paid. After all can you name the last airline that entered the Detroit market and then dropped it because it didn't work. The only ones I can think of off the top of my head are FI in 1986, SN in 1988 FL in the 1980's not sure of the year and BA in 2008 something that says a lot right there. Even with FL there were profitable but the business plan changed and DTW was not part of their new direction.


I literally could not summarize what you've said there even if I dedicated an hour to the task. You must have at least four sentences there of 50 words or more, and I'm pretty sure one has 80+ words. If you want to be taken seriously, please learn to proof-read. Once you've garnered proficiency in writing English we can speak intelligently to the situation at hand.


Excellent response to avoid responding to my comment.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:04 pm

redtailmsp wrote:
klm617 wrote:

First of all if numbers and rankings didn't matter why publish the numbers at all. They do matter you yourself should know this as the numbers and data person that you are. Good numbers drive growth. When companies see growth it raises eye brows and they want to be part of it so airport ranking does matter or we wouldn't hear over and over again about that Atlanta is the busiest airport in the world. As far as marketing the last forward thinking thing the airport has done was the DTW-DXB petition while it may not directly helps getting an airline to start a route it get's people talking about it and engaged in the topic. It get's the news media to maybe do a piece about it on TV or the newspaper. Secondly when carriers talk about Detroit in their future plans keep holding their feet to the fire bring it up over and over again mention the airlines by name like QR, DY and EI keep talking it up in public when ever you can. Just like the DTW-DUB article don't say things like we hope this happens soon now that it's being talked about be more matter of fact like we are working with airline diligently to make DTW-DUB happen sooner rather than later be aggressive and less passive. WOW Air staying in Detroit is the first time in forever that Detroit was able to stand tall over much bigger markets and get something that other airports couldn't hold onto and that's amazing that should be talked up the airport should be out there doing whatever it can to put WOW in the spot light for having faith in Detroit to be part of their future plans (If they have much of a future) when they are struggling to stay a float. You have to engage people remember this is a huge Delta market where most think that's their only option we have to plant seeds in their heads that hey there are other options out there besides Detroit. I'd venture to say that most people outside of the USA don't even know there is a Delta outside of ATL how Detroit is a much better option for connections than Atlanta is make the slogan if your choosing Delta as your travel partner make Detroit your preferred connection airport. Let's face it if the airport can blow a million dollars at a contractor that basically ripped them of they can hire a marketing firm that can market the airport and region in a more effective way and get returns on that money that will more than cover the initial investment. While yes I believe that incentives should not make or break it's a sad reality of the business world today and yes some airlines come in and take the money and then leave I think that WOW Air's decision to stay in Detroit is a good indicator that Detroit is very viable beyond any incentives paid. After all can you name the last airline that entered the Detroit market and then dropped it because it didn't work. The only ones I can think of off the top of my head are FI in 1986, SN in 1988 FL in the 1980's not sure of the year and BA in 2008 something that says a lot right there. Even with FL there were profitable but the business plan changed and DTW was not part of their new direction.


I just tried to read this last blurb that you have written. I honestly tried to read it three times, and I gave up. You may well have some good points buried in there somewhere. However, it is almost impossible to read and understand what you are trying to say. Your streaming together of all sorts of statements (which may or may not be linked) into one monster paragraph, coupled with lack of grammar or punctuation make it almost impossible to read.

May I suggest that you take a deep breath before you start writing anything. The way you write looks like nothing more than a rant that gets longer and longer and longer the more spooled up you get. In short, you need to take a moment to really think about what you are attempting to state, and don't go off on tangents or repeat yourself over and over. Then please proof read it at least once. Then edit it and reword it so that you have short, concise sentences and paragraphs. Please do this everytime before you hit the submit button. You never know, it may lead to some people reading and actually understanding what you are saying rather than just rolling their eyes and writing it off as just another rant.



Thank you for taking the time to try and understand the points that I was trying to touch on. Your effort was very much appreciated.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
2Holer4Longhaul
Posts: 374
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:03 am

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:07 am

klm617 wrote:
winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:
First of all if numbers and rankings didn't matter why publish the numbers at all. They do matter you yourself should know this as the numbers and data person that you are. Good numbers drive growth. When companies see growth it raises eye brows and they want to be part of it so airport ranking does matter or we wouldn't hear over and over again about that Atlanta is the busiest airport in the world. As far as marketing the last forward thinking thing the airport has done was the DTW-DXB petition while it may not directly helps getting an airline to start a route it get's people talking about it and engaged in the topic. It get's the news media to maybe do a piece about it on TV or the newspaper. Secondly when carriers talk about Detroit in their future plans keep holding their feet to the fire bring it up over and over again mention the airlines by name like QR, DY and EI keep talking it up in public when ever you can. Just like the DTW-DUB article don't say things like we hope this happens soon now that it's being talked about be more matter of fact like we are working with airline diligently to make DTW-DUB happen sooner rather than later be aggressive and less passive. WOW Air staying in Detroit is the first time in forever that Detroit was able to stand tall over much bigger markets and get something that other airports couldn't hold onto and that's amazing that should be talked up the airport should be out there doing whatever it can to put WOW in the spot light for having faith in Detroit to be part of their future plans (If they have much of a future) when they are struggling to stay a float. You have to engage people remember this is a huge Delta market where most think that's their only option we have to plant seeds in their heads that hey there are other options out there besides Detroit. I'd venture to say that most people outside of the USA don't even know there is a Delta outside of ATL how Detroit is a much better option for connections than Atlanta is make the slogan if your choosing Delta as your travel partner make Detroit your preferred connection airport. Let's face it if the airport can blow a million dollars at a contractor that basically ripped them of they can hire a marketing firm that can market the airport and region in a more effective way and get returns on that money that will more than cover the initial investment. While yes I believe that incentives should not make or break it's a sad reality of the business world today and yes some airlines come in and take the money and then leave I think that WOW Air's decision to stay in Detroit is a good indicator that Detroit is very viable beyond any incentives paid. After all can you name the last airline that entered the Detroit market and then dropped it because it didn't work. The only ones I can think of off the top of my head are FI in 1986, SN in 1988 FL in the 1980's not sure of the year and BA in 2008 something that says a lot right there. Even with FL there were profitable but the business plan changed and DTW was not part of their new direction.


I literally could not summarize what you've said there even if I dedicated an hour to the task. You must have at least four sentences there of 50 words or more, and I'm pretty sure one has 80+ words. If you want to be taken seriously, please learn to proof-read. Once you've garnered proficiency in writing English we can speak intelligently to the situation at hand.


Excellent response to avoid responding to my comment.

He does have a point. Eloquence is necessary for smooth communication, and your writing is anything but eloquent. Taks their writing suggestions, communicate your ideas better, and I promise you'll be taken more seriously.
"You know, if you just set out to be liked, you would be prepared to compromise on anything, wouldn't you, at any time? And you would achieve nothing!" - Margaret Thatcher
 
hjulicher
Posts: 699
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 2:26 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:14 am

lavalampluva wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
winginit wrote:
If you were in front of the WCAA Air Service Team right now, what specifically would you ask for?


That question is very simple.

When every other US airport is pushing FAA definition of "incentive" to "borderline subsidies", what are you offering to airlines to start new service?

Why are financial incentives even necessary? A lot of new airline service starts without it. If the area is so great and the market and demand so strong it shouldn’t necessary to throw money at airlines.


Incentives aren't necessary but often times play an instrumental role in an airline deciding new service as there are several candidates for the limited resources used for expansion. DL in DTW doesn't need financial incentives to start new service as they have a strong grip on the local market and understand the traffic flows very well.

New airlines which want to fly to DTW aren't incentivized to do so, which is smart imo, but some incentivizing may be necessary especially if the service is likely sustainable over the long term. Then the investment pays off and the airport grows which is equally important.

DTW incentive scheme is limited and used for marketing dollars.... WCAA should target airlines which could tap these incentives. From what I understand, they are only applicable for airlines starting to un-served destinations from DTW... I'm not sure however if different airports within the same catchment are considered separate destinations (ie. LGW vs LHR).

Logical additions which the airport should target would be...
- VS / MAN
- EI / DUB
- LX / ZRH
- DL / DUS or HAM (HAM has no TATL service anymore)

I've mentioned this before, but airlines look also at the number of airlines serving an airport. The more airlines serving an airport (i.e. BOS or SEA) bodes well for new entrants for several reasons as airlines perceive these markets as easier to enter and does not have to content with a powerful incumbent (i.e. DL at DTW). WCAA should focus on adding the number of carriers serving the airport with a special focus on international carriers. The Detroit market can absorb more international capacity. I'm pretty sure this will start to be the case as Detroit continues to get the positive publicity it has been getting over the past 2-3 years. The number of international travelers going to DTW is increasing.
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klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:40 am

2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
klm617 wrote:
winginit wrote:

I literally could not summarize what you've said there even if I dedicated an hour to the task. You must have at least four sentences there of 50 words or more, and I'm pretty sure one has 80+ words. If you want to be taken seriously, please learn to proof-read. Once you've garnered proficiency in writing English we can speak intelligently to the situation at hand.


Excellent response to avoid responding to my comment.

He does have a point. Eloquence is necessary for smooth communication, and your writing is anything but eloquent. Taks their writing suggestions, communicate your ideas better, and I promise you'll be taken more seriously.



Those who want to understand will always find a way and those who don't want to understand will always find a diversion or an excuse not to and their response will come in the form some sort of condescending response. It's all good because I'm not looking for respect or credibility.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:48 am

hjulicher wrote:
lavalampluva wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

That question is very simple.

When every other US airport is pushing FAA definition of "incentive" to "borderline subsidies", what are you offering to airlines to start new service?

Why are financial incentives even necessary? A lot of new airline service starts without it. If the area is so great and the market and demand so strong it shouldn’t necessary to throw money at airlines.


Incentives aren't necessary but often times play an instrumental role in an airline deciding new service as there are several candidates for the limited resources used for expansion. DL in DTW doesn't need financial incentives to start new service as they have a strong grip on the local market and understand the traffic flows very well.

New airlines which want to fly to DTW aren't incentivized to do so, which is smart imo, but some incentivizing may be necessary especially if the service is likely sustainable over the long term. Then the investment pays off and the airport grows which is equally important.

DTW incentive scheme is limited and used for marketing dollars.... WCAA should target airlines which could tap these incentives. From what I understand, they are only applicable for airlines starting to un-served destinations from DTW... I'm not sure however if different airports within the same catchment are considered separate destinations (ie. LGW vs LHR).

Logical additions which the airport should target would be...
- VS / MAN
- EI / DUB
- LX / ZRH
- DL / DUS or HAM (HAM has no TATL service anymore)

I've mentioned this before, but airlines look also at the number of airlines serving an airport. The more airlines serving an airport (i.e. BOS or SEA) bodes well for new entrants for several reasons as airlines perceive these markets as easier to enter and does not have to content with a powerful incumbent (i.e. DL at DTW). WCAA should focus on adding the number of carriers serving the airport with a special focus on international carriers. The Detroit market can absorb more international capacity. I'm pretty sure this will start to be the case as Detroit continues to get the positive publicity it has been getting over the past 2-3 years. The number of international travelers going to DTW is increasing.



I believe there is also a fuel tax wavier for a period one year. For the reasons you stated BA is a pointless endeavor as London is already served from Detroit and as you say Delta doesn't need the dollars because there are already known pretty well in these parts. So that again brings us back to EI The WCAA now has a year they should be out there in the public drumming up support for this link even in Ontario there should be a full scale campaign in making sure Detroit is added in the next round of US expansion. EI mentioned Detroit and it's up to the WCAA to now marketing it happen with cleaver marketing or hire a firm that can do it for them. The time for apathy is over EI should be top priority for everyone on the WCAA board. To your LGW LHR question no there are no incentives for LGW because the incentive is given by city and not by airport and Detroit is already linked to London.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
User avatar
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:55 am

hjulicher wrote:
lavalampluva wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

That question is very simple.

When every other US airport is pushing FAA definition of "incentive" to "borderline subsidies", what are you offering to airlines to start new service?

Why are financial incentives even necessary? A lot of new airline service starts without it. If the area is so great and the market and demand so strong it shouldn’t necessary to throw money at airlines.


Incentives aren't necessary but often times play an instrumental role in an airline deciding new service as there are several candidates for the limited resources used for expansion. DL in DTW doesn't need financial incentives to start new service as they have a strong grip on the local market and understand the traffic flows very well.

New airlines which want to fly to DTW aren't incentivized to do so, which is smart imo, but some incentivizing may be necessary especially if the service is likely sustainable over the long term. Then the investment pays off and the airport grows which is equally important.

DTW incentive scheme is limited and used for marketing dollars.... WCAA should target airlines which could tap these incentives. From what I understand, they are only applicable for airlines starting to un-served destinations from DTW... I'm not sure however if different airports within the same catchment are considered separate destinations (ie. LGW vs LHR).

Logical additions which the airport should target would be...
- VS / MAN
- EI / DUB
- LX / ZRH
- DL / DUS or HAM (HAM has no TATL service anymore)

I've mentioned this before, but airlines look also at the number of airlines serving an airport. The more airlines serving an airport (i.e. BOS or SEA) bodes well for new entrants for several reasons as airlines perceive these markets as easier to enter and does not have to content with a powerful incumbent (i.e. DL at DTW). WCAA should focus on adding the number of carriers serving the airport with a special focus on international carriers. The Detroit market can absorb more international capacity. I'm pretty sure this will start to be the case as Detroit continues to get the positive publicity it has been getting over the past 2-3 years. The number of international travelers going to DTW is increasing.



What's great about DUB, DUS, HAM and MAN is they can all be done on a 757 to minimize risk let's face it if they can dabble in BOS-EDI surely they is something viable out of Detroit. I would rather see Eurowings on DTW-DUS. LOT to WAW would also be within the realm of possibility 2 times weekly in the summer to start and of course EK to DXB.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
winginit
Posts: 3067
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:08 pm

klm617 wrote:
Excellent response to avoid responding to my comment.


What comment? What point? As you well know I'm always more than happy to respond to your points or comments, but I honestly cannot discern a concise point or a direct question from your post. In summary, what is the point you were trying to make? What was your direct question if there was one in there?

klm617 wrote:
So that again brings us back to EI The WCAA now has a year they should be out there in the public drumming up support for this link even in Ontario there should be a full scale campaign in making sure Detroit is added in the next round of US expansion. EI mentioned Detroit and it's up to the WCAA to now marketing it happen with cleaver marketing or hire a firm that can do it for them.


So again, what specific actions are you referring to when you say they should be 'out there' 'drumming up support'? Does that mean spending money on billboards that say "HEY EI BRING DUBLIN TO DETROIT!". Does that mean spending money on townhalls to get DTW metro citizens to write in to the network planners at EI? I'll ask again, a direct question, apart from subsidies what do you expect the WCAA to be doing? What 'creative marketing'? Either the financials and modeling work for EI or they don't.
 
User avatar
klm617
Posts: 5460
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:24 pm

winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Excellent response to avoid responding to my comment.


What comment? What point? As you well know I'm always more than happy to respond to your points or comments, but I honestly cannot discern a concise point or a direct question from your post. In summary, what is the point you were trying to make? What was your direct question if there was one in there?

klm617 wrote:
So that again brings us back to EI The WCAA now has a year they should be out there in the public drumming up support for this link even in Ontario there should be a full scale campaign in making sure Detroit is added in the next round of US expansion. EI mentioned Detroit and it's up to the WCAA to now marketing it happen with cleaver marketing or hire a firm that can do it for them.


So again, what specific actions are you referring to when you say they should be 'out there' 'drumming up support'? Does that mean spending money on billboards that say "HEY EI BRING DUBLIN TO DETROIT!". Does that mean spending money on townhalls to get DTW metro citizens to write in to the network planners at EI? I'll ask again, a direct question, apart from subsidies what do you expect the WCAA to be doing? What 'creative marketing'? Either the financials and modeling work for EI or they don't.


I see nothing on their Facebook page about the possibility I seen no report of the report aero-anna did and that they are working closely with airlines to make Detroit Dublin a reality. Putting it out there getting people talking about Aer Lingus on their page and what it could mean for the Detroit market drumming up support there is no buzz about this at all. Every time an airline suggests Detroit as a destination there should be blurbs supporting these entrants but nothing but stupid feel good articles. I've read more about restaurant options than I do about airline options put some survey out there would our customers be pleased with the addition of an Aer Lingus Dublin flight who would use get people engaged again this airport needs to hire a marketing firm to get the job done. Talk about the success of WOW Air in the Detroit market.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
User avatar
klm617
Posts: 5460
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:26 pm

Get ready folks Delta is setting Detroit up to take another big hit by purposing MSP-PVG for 2020. While it proposes ZERO for Detroit international adds.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
winginit
Posts: 3067
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:29 pm

klm617 wrote:
Get ready folks Delta is setting Detroit up to take another big hit by purposing MSP-PVG for 2020. While it proposes ZERO for Detroit international adds.


DL's MSPPVG proposal appears to me nothing more than a swipe at AA's dormant US to China slots. DL well knows that the slot authorities are only going to pressure AA into using or giving up their soon to be dormant ORD-PEK and ORD-PVG slots if an alternative service is proposed by another carrier that brings a new nonstop link to a city that does not currently offer nonstop service between the US and China. MSP obviously fits that bill, and DTW obviously does not as DTW already has nonstop service to both PVG and PEK.
Last edited by winginit on Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
klm617
Posts: 5460
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:34 pm

winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Excellent response to avoid responding to my comment.


What comment? What point? As you well know I'm always more than happy to respond to your points or comments, but I honestly cannot discern a concise point or a direct question from your post. In summary, what is the point you were trying to make? What was your direct question if there was one in there?

klm617 wrote:
So that again brings us back to EI The WCAA now has a year they should be out there in the public drumming up support for this link even in Ontario there should be a full scale campaign in making sure Detroit is added in the next round of US expansion. EI mentioned Detroit and it's up to the WCAA to now marketing it happen with cleaver marketing or hire a firm that can do it for them.


So again, what specific actions are you referring to when you say they should be 'out there' 'drumming up support'? Does that mean spending money on billboards that say "HEY EI BRING DUBLIN TO DETROIT!". Does that mean spending money on townhalls to get DTW metro citizens to write in to the network planners at EI? I'll ask again, a direct question, apart from subsidies what do you expect the WCAA to be doing? What 'creative marketing'? Either the financials and modeling work for EI or they don't.


Get out there and get the data together that EI can't refute like I said they have a year in front of them as they blew the first round of adds. Routes on line did a pretty good presentation out there on Detroit-Dublin build on that and make that your goal show them that while WOW Air dumped a lot of markets they kept Detroit where there is determination there is a way. Make a statement on Facebook and Twitter to start we are working diligently to make Detroit-Dublin happen in 2020. Make matter of fact statement as it being imminently in the works. We see again to where Delta is adding internationally at all the hubs yet Detroit isn't mentioned anywhere give EI a little free advertising in advance.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
winginit
Posts: 3067
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:51 pm

klm617 wrote:
Get out there and get the data together that EI can't refute like I said they have a year in front of them as they blew the first round of adds. Routes on line did a pretty good presentation out there on Detroit-Dublin build on that and make that your goal show them that while WOW Air dumped a lot of markets they kept Detroit where there is determination there is a way.


Let's be very clear here - no third party is going to be able to provide EI's network planners with anything superior to what they already have unless they're a consultant brought on by EI who are thus privvy to EI's internal revenue data. So while the WCAA could spend taxpayer dollars building upon an existing report with external data or make doubly clear to EI that the WOW decision was in some way telling, those are data points that either EI already knows or has superior data to. Also to be clear, where there is determination there is not always a way shy of heavy subsidies. You could round up a whole community of folks who are so very determined to make, just as an example, MIA to say Tokyo nonstop work. Doesn't mean it's going to happen in the foreseeable future.

klm617 wrote:
Make a statement on Facebook and Twitter to start we are working diligently to make Detroit-Dublin happen in 2020.


Facebook and Twitter? Seriously? Here's what would happen if EI saw that the WCAA had posted... on social media... that they were working diligently to make DTW-DUB happen.

"Yes WCAA? Top of the morning to you this is Aer Lingus. Saw you're 'working diligently to make DTW-DUB work'... are you ready to offer lucrative subsidies? You're not? Very well then have a nice day and give us a shout when you're ready"

klm617 wrote:
Make matter of fact statement as it being imminently in the works. We see again to where Delta is adding internationally at all the hubs yet Detroit isn't mentioned anywhere give EI a little free advertising in advance.


And then what happens if it doesn't come to fruition after 'matter of fact statements' have been made? Would you be willing to put your job on the line making statements like that if you knew, deep down, that the economics either worked or they didn't?
 
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klm617
Posts: 5460
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:56 pm

winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Get ready folks Delta is setting Detroit up to take another big hit by purposing MSP-PVG for 2020. While it proposes ZERO for Detroit international adds.


Surely you know, as has been discussed, that DL's MSPPVG proposal is nothing more than a swipe at AA's dormant US to China slots. DL well knows, and you should as well, that the slot authorities are only going to pressure AA into using or giving up their soon to be dormant ORD-PEK and ORD-PVG slots if an alternative service is proposed by another carrier that brings a new nonstop link to a city that does not currently offer nonstop service between the US and China. MSP obviously fits that bill, and DTW obviously does not as DTW already has nonstop service to both PVG and PEK.

Surely you know this? If not, consider yourself educated.


And that right there is effective marketing even though it may never happen they put it out the to drum up support for what they are trying to achieve. How about something like "Detroit Metro Airport is working closely with Aer Lingus to begin Detroit Dublin service as one of it's first A321LR destinations" Aer Lingus has expressed interest in adding Detroit to it's TATL network stating that it believes that the Detroit market is underserved Internationally ..............................
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
winginit
Posts: 3067
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:02 pm

klm617 wrote:
winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Get ready folks Delta is setting Detroit up to take another big hit by purposing MSP-PVG for 2020. While it proposes ZERO for Detroit international adds.


Surely you know, as has been discussed, that DL's MSPPVG proposal is nothing more than a swipe at AA's dormant US to China slots. DL well knows, and you should as well, that the slot authorities are only going to pressure AA into using or giving up their soon to be dormant ORD-PEK and ORD-PVG slots if an alternative service is proposed by another carrier that brings a new nonstop link to a city that does not currently offer nonstop service between the US and China. MSP obviously fits that bill, and DTW obviously does not as DTW already has nonstop service to both PVG and PEK.

Surely you know this? If not, consider yourself educated.


How about something like "Detroit Metro Airport is working closely with Aer Lingus to begin Detroit Dublin service as one of it's first A321LR destinations" Aer Lingus has expressed interest in adding Detroit to it's TATL network stating that it believes that the Detroit market is underserved Internationally ..............................


And again, what if it doesn't happen? Then you've foolishly put your job on the line for what? To try and drum up support for a route even though 'drumming up support' isn't going to have any impact on whether the route is actually launched? Did you see some sort of large community campaign from MSP or YUL in pursuit of EI's DUBMSP and DUBYUL service prior to their announcements? Of course not - because it wouldn't have made a difference.
 
User avatar
klm617
Posts: 5460
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:05 pm

winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Get out there and get the data together that EI can't refute like I said they have a year in front of them as they blew the first round of adds. Routes on line did a pretty good presentation out there on Detroit-Dublin build on that and make that your goal show them that while WOW Air dumped a lot of markets they kept Detroit where there is determination there is a way.


Let's be very clear here - no third party is going to be able to provide EI's network planners with anything superior to what they already have unless they're a consultant brought on by EI who are thus privvy to EI's internal revenue data. So while the WCAA could spend taxpayer dollars building upon an existing report with external data or make doubly clear to EI that the WOW decision was in some way telling, those are data points that either EI already knows or has superior data to. Also to be clear, where there is determination there is not always a way shy of heavy subsidies. You could round up a whole community of folks who are so very determined to make, just as an example, MIA to say Tokyo nonstop work. Doesn't mean it's going to happen in the foreseeable future.

klm617 wrote:
Make a statement on Facebook and Twitter to start we are working diligently to make Detroit-Dublin happen in 2020.


Facebook and Twitter? Seriously? Here's what would happen if EI saw that the WCAA had posted... on social media... that they were working diligently to make DTW-DUB happen.

"Yes WCAA? Top of the morning to you this is Aer Lingus. Saw you're 'working diligently to make DTW-DUB work'... are you ready to offer lucrative subsidies? You're not? Very well then have a nice day and give us a shout when you're ready"

klm617 wrote:
Make matter of fact statement as it being imminently in the works. We see again to where Delta is adding internationally at all the hubs yet Detroit isn't mentioned anywhere give EI a little free advertising in advance.


And then what happens if it doesn't come to fruition after 'matter of fact statements' have been made? Would you be willing to put your job on the line making statements like that if you knew, deep down, that the economics either worked or they didn't?


Many things that out leaders talk about never come to fruition. But at least you have Aer Lingus's attention and let's face it it's not about the money MSP offered nothing. Then you go from there while continuing to keep their attention and focus on Detroit rather than another city by being apathetic to the situation. If your mindset is the economics don't work then they won't but if your mindset is I'm going to do whatever I can to make these economics work in some way then you will find a way. It's like studying for a test if you know you're going to fail do you just accept that and fail no you study harder and try your hardest to pass.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
User avatar
klm617
Posts: 5460
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:07 pm

winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:
winginit wrote:

Surely you know, as has been discussed, that DL's MSPPVG proposal is nothing more than a swipe at AA's dormant US to China slots. DL well knows, and you should as well, that the slot authorities are only going to pressure AA into using or giving up their soon to be dormant ORD-PEK and ORD-PVG slots if an alternative service is proposed by another carrier that brings a new nonstop link to a city that does not currently offer nonstop service between the US and China. MSP obviously fits that bill, and DTW obviously does not as DTW already has nonstop service to both PVG and PEK.

Surely you know this? If not, consider yourself educated.


How about something like "Detroit Metro Airport is working closely with Aer Lingus to begin Detroit Dublin service as one of it's first A321LR destinations" Aer Lingus has expressed interest in adding Detroit to it's TATL network stating that it believes that the Detroit market is underserved Internationally ..............................


And again, what if it doesn't happen? Then you've foolishly put your job on the line for what? To try and drum up support for a route even though 'drumming up support' isn't going to have any impact on whether the route is actually launched? Did you see some sort of large community campaign from MSP or YUL in pursuit of EI's DUBMSP and DUBYUL service prior to their announcements? Of course not - because it wouldn't have made a difference.


But you never know 100% until you do it now do you. I don't know I don't live in MSP or follow that market so I can't answer that. But I can say this they are doing something right in MSP adding ICN, DUB, and soon PVG along with KL something the Detroit people are not doing.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...

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