klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:44 pm

klakzky123 wrote:
Luke1994 wrote:
Funny that you post MSA and ignore CSA, where Detroit has a 1,300,000+ edge on Minneapolis, and that’s excluding Windsor, which is right next door. So in reality, it’s closer to 5,700,000 v. 4,000,000 overall.

At MSP’s current growth rate, it would take about 50 years to equal the Detroit area in population. So yes, MSP is punching above its weight class, and has been for some time now. MSP benefits from great location, and that allows for fairly short connections on East-West routes. It’s also a nice facility and former home of NW, so it has every right to be a hub and important cog in Delta’s machine. And so does Detroit.

Let’s please move past the Detroit v. Minneapolis dick measuring contest, yeah? It’s clogging up this thread and the discussion isn’t really going anywhere.


Not to quibble but CSAs are an OMB creation that consists of multiple MSAs with some (many cases low) levels of labor interconnectivity. If you're comparing the Detroit Metro to the Twin Cities metro, you are comparing MSAs.

Comparing the Twin Cities CSA to the Detroit CSA just indicates that the Twin Cities does not have any other major MSAs in its proximity. But that does little to disabuse the notion that the actual Detroit MSA is facing population stagnation and bringing in adjacent MSAs to buttress the population doesn't actually improve your case.

But if you want to claim Ann Arbor, Flint etc.. are part of Detroit to prove a point, then sure. No one in Minneapolis would consider St Cloud part of the Twin Cities but the CSA technically does. Again, its an OMB creation to evaluate labor statistics. MSAs are a measure of a city and its suburbs. It is literally intended to define a metro area.


And this is why we have an issue when discussing this you have to include Ann Arbor as it is just as far as Detroit from DTW in some cases these area's are even closer than the northern suburbs of Detroit same with Windsor why do you think there are no Windsor Florida flights because Windsor for the most part is using Detroit because it's way more convenient and cheaper than using YQG. One other thing to remember is there is ZERO leakage from MSP there is no where within driving distance to get a better fare from Detroit you can drive to Chicago and Toronto to get a better international fare also further diluting the Detroit numbers. So you have to count Ann Arbor and I'd even say as far west as Jackson and as far south as Toledo that would use DTW as their primary airport. So with that being said which airport do the residents of St' Cloud use as their airport ? You have to include the population that would and could possibly use DTW or MSP as their primary airport for their travel plans not some number of a defined area. As to you mentioning Flint now that Delta has eliminated the DTW-FNT and the lack of service there now Detroit also becomes more relevant because there are no east ward connections from Flint anymore so anyone traveling any where east of Michigan by are is more likely to drive to Detroit to get a nonstop than to fly out of FNT with their best option being flying one hour backwards to ORD to reach any point in the eastern part of the US
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
tys777
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:01 pm

klm617 wrote:
klakzky123 wrote:
Luke1994 wrote:
Funny that you post MSA and ignore CSA, where Detroit has a 1,300,000+ edge on Minneapolis, and that’s excluding Windsor, which is right next door. So in reality, it’s closer to 5,700,000 v. 4,000,000 overall.

At MSP’s current growth rate, it would take about 50 years to equal the Detroit area in population. So yes, MSP is punching above its weight class, and has been for some time now. MSP benefits from great location, and that allows for fairly short connections on East-West routes. It’s also a nice facility and former home of NW, so it has every right to be a hub and important cog in Delta’s machine. And so does Detroit.

Let’s please move past the Detroit v. Minneapolis dick measuring contest, yeah? It’s clogging up this thread and the discussion isn’t really going anywhere.


Not to quibble but CSAs are an OMB creation that consists of multiple MSAs with some (many cases low) levels of labor interconnectivity. If you're comparing the Detroit Metro to the Twin Cities metro, you are comparing MSAs.

Comparing the Twin Cities CSA to the Detroit CSA just indicates that the Twin Cities does not have any other major MSAs in its proximity. But that does little to disabuse the notion that the actual Detroit MSA is facing population stagnation and bringing in adjacent MSAs to buttress the population doesn't actually improve your case.

But if you want to claim Ann Arbor, Flint etc.. are part of Detroit to prove a point, then sure. No one in Minneapolis would consider St Cloud part of the Twin Cities but the CSA technically does. Again, its an OMB creation to evaluate labor statistics. MSAs are a measure of a city and its suburbs. It is literally intended to define a metro area.


And this is why we have an issue when discussing this you have to include Ann Arbor as it is just as far as Detroit from DTW in some cases these area's are even closer than the northern suburbs of Detroit same with Windsor why do you think there are no Windsor Florida flights because Windsor for the most part is using Detroit because it's way more convenient and cheaper than using YQG. One other thing to remember is there is ZERO leakage from MSP there is no where within driving distance to get a better fare from Detroit you can drive to Chicago and Toronto to get a better international fare also further diluting the Detroit numbers. So you have to count Ann Arbor and I'd even say as far west as Jackson and as far south as Toledo that would use DTW as their primary airport. So with that being said which airport do the residents of St' Cloud use as their airport ? You have to include the population that would and could possibly use DTW or MSP as their primary airport for their travel plans not some number of a defined area. As to you mentioning Flint now that Delta has eliminated the DTW-FNT and the lack of service there now Detroit also becomes more relevant because there are no east ward connections from Flint anymore so anyone traveling any where east of Michigan by are is more likely to drive to Detroit to get a nonstop than to fly out of FNT with their best option being flying one hour backwards to ORD to reach any point in the eastern part of the US


If we use your logic, the population area that uses MSP as it's primary is going to be a lot closer to DTW than you think. However, this doesn't need to be a pissing match which everyone seems interested in making it.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:06 pm

So for those who like facts here are some facts for you. The population of Michigan in 2017 was 9.962 million people while the population of the state of Minnesota was 5.577 million a little more than half of what the state of Michigan's was. Assuming that 50% of the population lives within 100 miles of the airport which I think it's more that gives the potential to draw from gives Detroit a whole lot more potential draw than MSP can and that doesn't even include the Windsor and Toledo numbers as MSP has no other large population base to draw from other than the city itself something that Detroit benefits from. With that being said there is so much untapped potential in the Detroit market than within the MSP market you can post all kinds of fancy data to support your arguments that Detroit is over served but based on the number I presented that's just not true. Someone that is better with numbers may be able to get a better figure of what portion of the Michigan population is within 100 miles of the airport. We often get hooked on the fact that the city of Detroit itself is the primary feed for DTW but that's just not true it's the people who live outside of the city are the real customers of DTW. There is A LOT of potential at DTW whether people like to believe that or not.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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piedmontf284000
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:48 pm

klm617 wrote:
So for those who like facts here are some facts for you. The population of Michigan in 2017 was 9.962 million people while the population of the state of Minnesota was 5.577 million a little more than half of what the state of Michigan's was. Assuming that 50% of the population lives within 100 miles of the airport which I think it's more that gives the potential to draw from gives Detroit a whole lot more potential draw than MSP can and that doesn't even include the Windsor and Toledo numbers as MSP has no other large population base to draw from other than the city itself something that Detroit benefits from. With that being said there is so much untapped potential in the Detroit market than within the MSP market you can post all kinds of fancy data to support your arguments that Detroit is over served but based on the number I presented that's just not true. Someone that is better with numbers may be able to get a better figure of what portion of the Michigan population is within 100 miles of the airport. We often get hooked on the fact that the city of Detroit itself is the primary feed for DTW but that's just not true it's the people who live outside of the city are the real customers of DTW. There is A LOT of potential at DTW whether people like to believe that or not.


Economy ---------------------------------------------------- Detroit -------------- Minneapolis--------- Michigan------------- Minnesota
In civilian labor force, total, percent ---------- -------53.5% ------------74.1% ------------ 61.1%------------ 69.8%
In civilian labor force, female----------- ----------52.6%-------------- 71.5% ------------ 57.0%-------------- 66.1%

This is what matters to an airline. Business travellers. MSP has over 20 percent of business travellers then DTW. The state of MN has almost 10 percent more business travellers then MI. While lesiure routes are nice, business travellers are where airlines make their $$$.

Income & Poverty -------------------------------- -------------------------- -------------- Detroit ------------- Minneapolis----------- Michigan --------------Minnesota
Median household income (in 2016 dollars), 2012-2016 -----------------------$26,249 ---------$52,611------------- $50,803 -------------$63,217
Per capita income in past 12 months (in 2016 dollars), 2012-2016---------- $15,562----------- $33,490-------- $27,549------------ $33,225
Persons in poverty, percent----------------------------------------------------- 39.4% ---------------21.3% -------------14.2% -------------9.5%

You don't think that median income matters to an airline? Airlines are very focused on the affluent parts of the country .They can make far more money from the wealthy then they can from the poor. Minneapolis has over double the wealth that Detroit does. Minnesota is much more affluent then Michigan as well.

These are the things that matter to an airline, not population. If population mattered, we would see far more flights to Mexico or Africa, sorry it's just not the case.
 
michman
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:50 pm

The City of Detroit only represents about 15% of DTW's catchment at this point. It's absurd to use the City as a proxy for the region's economic health. Another poster demonstrating their ignorance of the region.
 
kavok
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:00 pm

News flash... I just checked the income and economic statistics for the Bronx. They were not good. And since the Bronx is part of the JFK/LGA cachement area...., then clearly it is a matter of time before the NYC airports lose much of their service to regional jets. NYC is lucky to have what it does.

See how ridiculous that sounds? The “data” posted above uses that exact same logic of isolating a lower income portion of the cachement area, and implying that area represents the cachement as a whole.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:21 pm

Serious question, is Ann Arbor growing? What's the median income? etc?
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:24 pm

kavok wrote:
News flash... I just checked the income and economic statistics for the Bronx. They were not good. And since the Bronx is part of the JFK/LGA cachement area...., then clearly it is a matter of time before the NYC airports lose much of their service to regional jets. NYC is lucky to have what it does.

See how ridiculous that sounds? The “data” posted above uses that exact same logic of isolating a lower income portion of the cachement area, and implying that area represents the cachement as a whole.



On a side note I was surprised to learn that the city of New York is about equal to the entire population of the state of Michigan.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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piedmontf284000
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:32 pm

michman wrote:
The City of Detroit only represents about 15% of DTW's catchment at this point. It's absurd to use the City as a proxy for the region's economic health. Another poster demonstrating their ignorance of the region.


15 percent?! Try again. The city of Detroit is closer to 35 to 40 percent of DTW local traffic. The remainder is suburbs, collar counties, and outlying areas (ie Ann Arbor, Ypsilanti, and some leakage from Toledo). I get that you don't like seeing the numbers for the city of Detroit, but they are what they are. Detroit has gotten better in the last ten years, but let's be honest, there was no where to go but up.

https://www.metroairport.com/sites/defa ... ements.pdf

kavok wrote:
News flash... I just checked the income and economic statistics for the Bronx. They were not good. And since the Bronx is part of the JFK/LGA cachement area...., then clearly it is a matter of time before the NYC airports lose much of their service to regional jets. NYC is lucky to have what it does.

See how ridiculous that sounds? The “data” posted above uses that exact same logic of isolating a lower income portion of the cachement area, and implying that area represents the cachement as a whole.


NEWS FLASH, the Bronx is actually part of NYC, it is one of it's boroughs. Therefore it is not isolating a lower income portion of any area because it is part of the same city. If you wanted to use Newark, then you would be making a decent argument.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:42 pm

piedmontf284000 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
So for those who like facts here are some facts for you. The population of Michigan in 2017 was 9.962 million people while the population of the state of Minnesota was 5.577 million a little more than half of what the state of Michigan's was. Assuming that 50% of the population lives within 100 miles of the airport which I think it's more that gives the potential to draw from gives Detroit a whole lot more potential draw than MSP can and that doesn't even include the Windsor and Toledo numbers as MSP has no other large population base to draw from other than the city itself something that Detroit benefits from. With that being said there is so much untapped potential in the Detroit market than within the MSP market you can post all kinds of fancy data to support your arguments that Detroit is over served but based on the number I presented that's just not true. Someone that is better with numbers may be able to get a better figure of what portion of the Michigan population is within 100 miles of the airport. We often get hooked on the fact that the city of Detroit itself is the primary feed for DTW but that's just not true it's the people who live outside of the city are the real customers of DTW. There is A LOT of potential at DTW whether people like to believe that or not.


Economy ---------------------------------------------------- Detroit -------------- Minneapolis--------- Michigan------------- Minnesota
In civilian labor force, total, percent ---------- -------53.5% ------------74.1% ------------ 61.1%------------ 69.8%
In civilian labor force, female----------- ----------52.6%-------------- 71.5% ------------ 57.0%-------------- 66.1%

This is what matters to an airline. Business travellers. MSP has over 20 percent of business travellers then DTW. The state of MN has almost 10 percent more business travellers then MI. While lesiure routes are nice, business travellers are where airlines make their $$$.

Income & Poverty -------------------------------- -------------------------- -------------- Detroit ------------- Minneapolis----------- Michigan --------------Minnesota
Median household income (in 2016 dollars), 2012-2016 -----------------------$26,249 ---------$52,611------------- $50,803 -------------$63,217
Per capita income in past 12 months (in 2016 dollars), 2012-2016---------- $15,562----------- $33,490-------- $27,549------------ $33,225
Persons in poverty, percent----------------------------------------------------- 39.4% ---------------21.3% -------------14.2% -------------9.5%

You don't think that median income matters to an airline? Airlines are very focused on the affluent parts of the country .They can make far more money from the wealthy then they can from the poor. Minneapolis has over double the wealth that Detroit does. Minnesota is much more affluent then Michigan as well.

These are the things that matter to an airline, not population. If population mattered, we would see far more flights to Mexico or Africa, sorry it's just not the case.


This is the most ridiculous posting I’ve read within this thread in quite some time.

#1 - it’s very clear MSP has more local leisure travelers than DTW. Last year, LCC at MSP carried more passengers than DTW, DL carried a larger proportion of local traffic to top leisure destinations at MSP than DTW and WN had 200K more enplanemwnts at MSP. I doubt there’s any other city in the USA that generates as much origin winter leisure traffic, as a % of its overall traffic, as MSP.

Comparing blue collar to white collar is totally meaningless. The lions share of white collar workers will travel as much in their career as the guy flipping burgers at the local McDonalds.

#2 - you do realize that a recent homeowner in Orange County, CA with 4 kids and a household income of nearly $100K qualifies for food stamps? But... But... But... WEALTH!

We use DISCRETIONARY income to measure one’s spending power. That’s the $$$ you have to spend after paying all your bills (in contrast to dispossable income, which is the $$$ you have after paying taxes BUT before paying your bills.). There really needs to be a sticky on a.net explaining this, although to anybody who’s traveled around the county it shouldn’t be rocket science.

Metro Detroit has long hailed as one of the top MSA’s in the county in discretionary income — fueled by high incomes last century, and fueled by low housing costs this century.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:43 pm

piedmontf284000 wrote:
michman wrote:
The City of Detroit only represents about 15% of DTW's catchment at this point. It's absurd to use the City as a proxy for the region's economic health. Another poster demonstrating their ignorance of the region.


15 percent?! Try again. The city of Detroit is closer to 35 to 40 percent of DTW local traffic. The remainder is suburbs, collar counties, and outlying areas (ie Ann Arbor, Ypsilanti, and some leakage from Toledo). I get that you don't like seeing the numbers for the city of Detroit, but they are what they are. Detroit has gotten better in the last ten years, but let's be honest, there was no where to go but up.

https://www.metroairport.com/sites/defa ... ements.pdf

kavok wrote:
News flash... I just checked the income and economic statistics for the Bronx. They were not good. And since the Bronx is part of the JFK/LGA cachement area...., then clearly it is a matter of time before the NYC airports lose much of their service to regional jets. NYC is lucky to have what it does.

See how ridiculous that sounds? The “data” posted above uses that exact same logic of isolating a lower income portion of the cachement area, and implying that area represents the cachement as a whole.


NEWS FLASH, the Bronx is actually part of NYC, it is one of it's boroughs. Therefore it is not isolating a lower income portion of any area because it is part of the same city. If you wanted to use Newark, then you would be making a decent argument.


Are you kidding me 35 to 40% is not even close to what it is 70% of the people who live in Detroit can't even afford to fly so that number is way to high. Living in this area I know 15% sounds pretty accurate. In fact when evaluating whether to serve this market or not the numbers for the city proper are totally irrelevant when projecting what kind of loads and yields you could get by flying into Detroit.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
michman
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:59 pm

piedmontf284000 wrote:
michman wrote:
The City of Detroit only represents about 15% of DTW's catchment at this point. It's absurd to use the City as a proxy for the region's economic health. Another poster demonstrating their ignorance of the region.


15 percent?! Try again. The city of Detroit is closer to 35 to 40 percent of DTW local traffic. The remainder is suburbs, collar counties, and outlying areas (ie Ann Arbor, Ypsilanti, and some leakage from Toledo). I get that you don't like seeing the numbers for the city of Detroit, but they are what they are. Detroit has gotten better in the last ten years, but let's be honest, there was no where to go but up.

https://www.metroairport.com/sites/defa ... ements.pdf

.


How on earth are your coming up with that number?? There was absolutely no breakdown of passengers by city/region in that report! Let's see your source.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:14 pm

flymco753 wrote:
Serious question, is Ann Arbor growing? What's the median income? etc?

Ann Arbor needs to be looked at in context for what it is but from its difficult to look at its numbers in isolation from the broader numbers for all of Southeast Michigan.

Ann Arbor is a stand-alone micro-economy within Southeast Michigan that at is core is driven by a large, world-class research university, a large hospital healthcare system, and other large employers directly affiliated with the university, automotive industry related, or other white-collar/R&D/engineering employees that thrive with access to an educated population.

Population-wise Ann Arbor is flat since its been built-out for awhile, and residential growth for housing construction is primarily in the surrounding townships to the south, or in areas that lend to commuting patterns to employers in Ann Arbor or other areas of Southeast Michigan. Areas like South Lyon/Lyon Twp, Canton, Plymouth Twp, Saline, Dexter, and Brighton all acts as de-facto bedroom communities for Ann Arbor (and other areas of Metro Detroit as well).

Ann Arbor business community is also growing, but its also largely built-out in its core, so growth is largely happening in surrounding townships as well, primarily along US-23 or M-14 corridor.

Ann Arbor has its own set of large employers but also acts as a bedroom community for Metro Detroit. Not uncommon to have people who commute from Ann Arbor to major employers and business centers in places like Dearborn, Novi/Farmington, Southfield, and even Downtown Detroit. Its also a very favorable location for individuals who travel frequently for work / road warriors due to its proximity and generally traffic-free commute to DTW.

Ann Arbor median incomes are trending higher and well above average for Southeast Michigan. It also one of the hottest real estate markets in the state and the price of real estate continues to drive higher. Its a bit chicken or the egg, high priced real-estate attached buyers with higher incomes. A lot of high incomes attributes to good salaries of the university, the hospital system, and other white collar employers.

Ann Arbor, besides its transient student population, is one of the few areas in Southeast Michigan that tends to see and also is viewed favorably for out-of-state transplants.

From an air service perspective, its just gets blended in aggregate into the broader mix and demographics of Southeast Michigan.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:25 pm

Its also notoriously difficult to get accurate statistics in a large university town, depending on data-collection, where people claim residency, the income levels, and the nature of a transient student population.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:25 pm

Its also notoriously difficult to get accurate statistics in a large university town, depending on data-collection, where people claim residency, the income levels, and the nature of a transient student population.
 
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piedmontf284000
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:30 pm

michman wrote:
piedmontf284000 wrote:
michman wrote:
The City of Detroit only represents about 15% of DTW's catchment at this point. It's absurd to use the City as a proxy for the region's economic health. Another poster demonstrating their ignorance of the region.


15 percent?! Try again. The city of Detroit is closer to 35 to 40 percent of DTW local traffic. The remainder is suburbs, collar counties, and outlying areas (ie Ann Arbor, Ypsilanti, and some leakage from Toledo). I get that you don't like seeing the numbers for the city of Detroit, but they are what they are. Detroit has gotten better in the last ten years, but let's be honest, there was no where to go but up.

https://www.metroairport.com/sites/defa ... ements.pdf

.


How on earth are your coming up with that number?? There was absolutely no breakdown of passengers by city/region in that report! Let's see your source.


I included my source. It's amazing that you could read a 100 page report in the 30 minutes since I posted a reply to you. Even more amazing is that you throw out numbers that you have no source for. Pot meet kettle.
 
kavok
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:35 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Serious question, is Ann Arbor growing? What's the median income? etc?

Ann Arbor needs to be looked at in context for what it is but from its difficult to look at its numbers in isolation from the broader numbers for all of Southeast Michigan.

Ann Arbor is a stand-alone micro-economy within Southeast Michigan that at is core is driven by a large, world-class research university, a large hospital healthcare system, and other large employers directly affiliated with the university, automotive industry related, or other white-collar/R&D/engineering employees that thrive with access to an educated population.

Population-wise Ann Arbor is flat since its been built-out for awhile, and residential growth for housing construction is primarily in the surrounding townships to the south, or in areas that lend to commuting patterns to employers in Ann Arbor or other areas of Southeast Michigan. Areas like South Lyon/Lyon Twp, Canton, Plymouth Twp, Saline, Dexter, and Brighton all acts as de-facto bedroom communities for Ann Arbor (and other areas of Metro Detroit as well).

Ann Arbor business community is also growing, but its also largely built-out in its core, so growth is largely happening in surrounding townships as well, primarily along US-23 or M-14 corridor.

Ann Arbor has its own set of large employers but also acts as a bedroom community for Metro Detroit. Not uncommon to have people who commute from Ann Arbor to major employers and business centers in places like Dearborn, Novi/Farmington, Southfield, and even Downtown Detroit. Its also a very favorable location for individuals who travel frequently for work / road warriors due to its proximity and generally traffic-free commute to DTW.

Ann Arbor median incomes are trending higher and well above average for Southeast Michigan. It also one of the hottest real estate markets in the state and the price of real estate continues to drive higher. Its a bit chicken or the egg, high priced real-estate attached buyers with higher incomes. A lot of high incomes attributes to good salaries of the university, the hospital system, and other white collar employers.

Ann Arbor, besides its transient student population, is one of the few areas in Southeast Michigan that tends to see and also is viewed favorably for out-of-state transplants.

From an air service perspective, its just gets blended in aggregate into the broader mix and demographics of Southeast Michigan.



Good points.

One additional point is that the residents of Ann Arbor and Washtenaw County never ever fly commercially, as there are no commercial airports in the Ann Arbor MSA. And God forbid we use CSA figures over MSA. ;)
Last edited by kavok on Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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piedmontf284000
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:38 pm

compensateme wrote:
piedmontf284000 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
So for those who like facts here are some facts for you. The population of Michigan in 2017 was 9.962 million people while the population of the state of Minnesota was 5.577 million a little more than half of what the state of Michigan's was. Assuming that 50% of the population lives within 100 miles of the airport which I think it's more that gives the potential to draw from gives Detroit a whole lot more potential draw than MSP can and that doesn't even include the Windsor and Toledo numbers as MSP has no other large population base to draw from other than the city itself something that Detroit benefits from. With that being said there is so much untapped potential in the Detroit market than within the MSP market you can post all kinds of fancy data to support your arguments that Detroit is over served but based on the number I presented that's just not true. Someone that is better with numbers may be able to get a better figure of what portion of the Michigan population is within 100 miles of the airport. We often get hooked on the fact that the city of Detroit itself is the primary feed for DTW but that's just not true it's the people who live outside of the city are the real customers of DTW. There is A LOT of potential at DTW whether people like to believe that or not.


Economy ---------------------------------------------------- Detroit -------------- Minneapolis--------- Michigan------------- Minnesota
In civilian labor force, total, percent ---------- -------53.5% ------------74.1% ------------ 61.1%------------ 69.8%
In civilian labor force, female----------- ----------52.6%-------------- 71.5% ------------ 57.0%-------------- 66.1%

This is what matters to an airline. Business travellers. MSP has over 20 percent of business travellers then DTW. The state of MN has almost 10 percent more business travellers then MI. While lesiure routes are nice, business travellers are where airlines make their $$$.

Income & Poverty -------------------------------- -------------------------- -------------- Detroit ------------- Minneapolis----------- Michigan --------------Minnesota
Median household income (in 2016 dollars), 2012-2016 -----------------------$26,249 ---------$52,611------------- $50,803 -------------$63,217
Per capita income in past 12 months (in 2016 dollars), 2012-2016---------- $15,562----------- $33,490-------- $27,549------------ $33,225
Persons in poverty, percent----------------------------------------------------- 39.4% ---------------21.3% -------------14.2% -------------9.5%

You don't think that median income matters to an airline? Airlines are very focused on the affluent parts of the country .They can make far more money from the wealthy then they can from the poor. Minneapolis has over double the wealth that Detroit does. Minnesota is much more affluent then Michigan as well.

These are the things that matter to an airline, not population. If population mattered, we would see far more flights to Mexico or Africa, sorry it's just not the case.


This is the most ridiculous posting I’ve read within this thread in quite some time.

#1 - it’s very clear MSP has more local leisure travelers than DTW. Last year, LCC at MSP carried more passengers than DTW, DL carried a larger proportion of local traffic to top leisure destinations at MSP than DTW and WN had 200K more enplanemwnts at MSP. I doubt there’s any other city in the USA that generates as much origin winter leisure traffic, as a % of its overall traffic, as MSP.

Comparing blue collar to white collar is totally meaningless. The lions share of white collar workers will travel as much in their career as the guy flipping burgers at the local McDonalds.

#2 - you do realize that a recent homeowner in Orange County, CA with 4 kids and a household income of nearly $100K qualifies for food stamps? But... But... But... WEALTH!

We use DISCRETIONARY income to measure one’s spending power. That’s the $$$ you have to spend after paying all your bills (in contrast to dispossable income, which is the $$$ you have after paying taxes BUT before paying your bills.). There really needs to be a sticky on a.net explaining this, although to anybody who’s traveled around the county it shouldn’t be rocket science.

Metro Detroit has long hailed as one of the top MSA’s in the county in discretionary income — fueled by high incomes last century, and fueled by low housing costs this century.


Wealth doesn't matter. Really? That's rich. So if that's the case, why do airlines even try selling a product like first or business class. Guess it just goes to whoever they think is the best looking.

As for MSP being the city that carries the most winter leisure traffic, that's absurd. You think they have more winter leisure traffic then NYC, Boston, DC, or Chicago? Why doesn't MSP fly direct to more Hawaiian or Caribbean cities?

Finally, the is no one in this country making 100K that is on food stamps that is legit.
 
klm617
Posts: 4473
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:19 pm

I'm thinking maybe Wayne county accounts for 35% of the traffic at DTW but there is NO WAY the city of Detroit does.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 7116
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:12 pm

piedmontf284000 wrote:
...
Income & Poverty -------------------------------- -------------------------- -------------- Detroit ------------- Minneapolis----------- Michigan --------------Minnesota
Median household income (in 2016 dollars), 2012-2016 -----------------------$26,249 ---------$52,611------------- $50,803 -------------$63,217
Per capita income in past 12 months (in 2016 dollars), 2012-2016---------- $15,562----------- $33,490-------- $27,549------------ $33,225
Persons in poverty, percent----------------------------------------------------- 39.4% ---------------21.3% -------------14.2% -------------9.5%
..


A perfect example of selective presentation of data. Next time cherry pick City of Detroit, Flint, Pontiac and some seasonal tourist places from Michigan.

Minnesota has higher median household income than IL and NY. Should airlines drop ORD/NYC and move to MSP.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 2903
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:38 pm

Not sure if this was mentioned previously but Delta put out a release they are adding DTW-SMF

Outbound
DTW at 7:55 p.m. SMF at 10:05 p.m.
Inbound
SMF at 10:50 p.m. DTW at 6:14 a.m. (next day)

Third flight to the west announced this year. Nice!

https://news.delta.com/delta-further-ex ... sacramento
 
kavok
Posts: 591
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:48 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
Not sure if this was mentioned previously but Delta put out a release they are adding DTW-SMF

Outbound
DTW at 7:55 p.m. SMF at 10:05 p.m.
Inbound
SMF at 10:50 p.m. DTW at 6:14 a.m. (next day)

Third flight to the west announced this year. Nice!

https://news.delta.com/delta-further-ex ... sacramento



Great find, and great flight addition. Utilization flying on the eastbound return leg with the red eye should help keep opportunity costs down as well. Great news to hear on a Friday.
 
klm617
Posts: 4473
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:04 pm

kavok wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Not sure if this was mentioned previously but Delta put out a release they are adding DTW-SMF

Outbound
DTW at 7:55 p.m. SMF at 10:05 p.m.
Inbound
SMF at 10:50 p.m. DTW at 6:14 a.m. (next day)

Third flight to the west announced this year. Nice!

https://news.delta.com/delta-further-ex ... sacramento



Great find, and great flight addition. Utilization flying on the eastbound return leg with the red eye should help keep opportunity costs down as well. Great news to hear on a Friday.


Great news love it Detroit has been on quite a bit of a roll lately now let's hope for the return of ANC
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
michman
Posts: 901
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2006 9:51 am

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:04 pm

piedmontf284000 wrote:
michman wrote:
piedmontf284000 wrote:

15 percent?! Try again. The city of Detroit is closer to 35 to 40 percent of DTW local traffic. The remainder is suburbs, collar counties, and outlying areas (ie Ann Arbor, Ypsilanti, and some leakage from Toledo). I get that you don't like seeing the numbers for the city of Detroit, but they are what they are. Detroit has gotten better in the last ten years, but let's be honest, there was no where to go but up.

https://www.metroairport.com/sites/defa ... ements.pdf

.


How on earth are your coming up with that number?? There was absolutely no breakdown of passengers by city/region in that report! Let's see your source.


I included my source. It's amazing that you could read a 100 page report in the 30 minutes since I posted a reply to you. Even more amazing is that you throw out numbers that you have no source for. Pot meet kettle.


Point to the page in that report. I've gone through it several times and found no foundation for your number. If you are simply basing it on the top-10 employer numbers, that's BS. How may of their employees actually live in Detroit and what about all the other employers???
 
portcolumbus
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:32 pm

DTW-SMF was flown before, right? I believe it was also an eastbound redeye.
 
EBiafore99
Posts: 97
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:03 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:35 pm

It's interesting the statistics that appear about DTW and MSP to explain DL service/lack of service to/from the two cities. Really, I think the issue lies OUTSIDE DTW and MSP.

Since the merger, Delta has built up operations at LGA and now BOS. You look at the cities served from both BOS/LGA and I think it's clear the buildup of operations in these two cities has funneled more traffic away from DTW than MSP.

SEA is another one. It is now an Asian gateway. Again, siphoning traffic away from DTW.

I think for DTW, the real issue is the airport has more competition within the DL system. MSP's strength is the route network does not have as much competition. Even in NW days, it was no secret that MSP was the money maker.
 
Antoli0794
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:20 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:37 pm

klm617 wrote:
kavok wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Not sure if this was mentioned previously but Delta put out a release they are adding DTW-SMF

Outbound
DTW at 7:55 p.m. SMF at 10:05 p.m.
Inbound
SMF at 10:50 p.m. DTW at 6:14 a.m. (next day)

Third flight to the west announced this year. Nice!

https://news.delta.com/delta-further-ex ... sacramento



Great find, and great flight addition. Utilization flying on the eastbound return leg with the red eye should help keep opportunity costs down as well. Great news to hear on a Friday.


Great news love it Detroit has been on quite a bit of a roll lately now let's hope for the return of ANC


MSP gets the job done
Last edited by Antoli0794 on Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Antoli0794
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:20 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:41 pm

Antoli0794 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
kavok wrote:


Great find, and great flight addition. Utilization flying on the eastbound return leg with the red eye should help keep opportunity costs down as well. Great news to hear on a Friday.


Great news love it Detroit has been on quite a bit of a roll lately now let's hope for the return of ANC


MSP gets the job done for ANC
 
kavok
Posts: 591
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:06 pm

EBiafore99 wrote:
It's interesting the statistics that appear about DTW and MSP to explain DL service/lack of service to/from the two cities. Really, I think the issue lies OUTSIDE DTW and MSP.

Since the merger, Delta has built up operations at LGA and now BOS. You look at the cities served from both BOS/LGA and I think it's clear the buildup of operations in these two cities has funneled more traffic away from DTW than MSP.

SEA is another one. It is now an Asian gateway. Again, siphoning traffic away from DTW.

I think for DTW, the real issue is the airport has more competition within the DL system. MSP's strength is the route network does not have as much competition. Even in NW days, it was no secret that MSP was the money maker.



Don’t put any thought into that data. It is both very misleading, and probably posted to troll DTW fanboys. When several posters called him out on where some of the statsistics actually came from, he became noticeably silent.

He is trying to mislead posters by making it seem like the DTW cachement population is much closer to MSP in population size by using deceptive statistics. In truth, the DTW population cachement is actually quite a bit larger. The income differences are also fairly close between DTW and MSP, though MSP is slightly better in that regard. But again deceiving statistic are used to make it appear otherwise.

The real reason MSP has slightly higher O/D than DTW overall is because it is much more geographically isolated than DTW. Simply put, if MSP residents are going to any other significant population area, they have to fly (or endure a very long drive). It is not like DTW where ORD, IND, CLE, CVG, CMH, PIT, YYZ are all drivable within 3 to 4 hours.

And yes the BOS/NYC buildup has siphoned some pax, but truthfully it is fairly negligible. From the TATL side, DTW has a much service via DL as it ever had, so not any real siphoning there. The TPAC service basically fairly constant also, with the only real reductions due to the smaller capacities of the 350 swapping in for the 744.., which is also considered negligible to most posters (with one notable exception).

The domestic connection drawdowns are the result of flows being sent to ATL, because DL prefers to route pax there. Truthfully there aren’t a whole lot of domestic itineraries that geographically make sense to connect in BOS/NYC anyway unless you are flying to Maine.

Both MSP and DTW complement the DL network very well, and are both huge profit generators for DL. To imply one is and the other is not is simply not true.
 
klm617
Posts: 4473
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:12 pm

So with Delta finally putting their money where there mouth is and making so real meaningful adds here in Detroit mainly HNL, SJC, SMF, SNA and ORH plus the addition of 4 extra LHR frequencies and AM flights to BJX and QRO what else could we realistically expect domestically my thoughts are the only other real add left is the 50 states is ANC anything else would pretty much surprise me. Ed Bastian also said the Detroit is in line for more international expansion and seeing that DTW is now moving a bit forward what can we see realistically. My thoughts would be the return of YHZ new year round service to YVR and YYC moving the YOW flying to WS with the Q400 as far as Canada goes. As far as Asia I really don't see them adding capacity there as they are moving connections away from Detroit in terms of the Asia traffic and Europe wise also don't really see anything that could be added outside of DUB and MAN or maybe some experimental flying with the 757 to some smaller markets. Would be interesting to hear all your thoughts and if you have heard any word going around in what direction Delta is going in internationally from Detroit.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
gnakra80
Posts: 23
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:41 pm

klm617 wrote:
So with Delta finally putting their money where there mouth is and making so real meaningful adds here in Detroit mainly HNL, SJC, SMF, SNA and ORH plus the addition of 4 extra LHR frequencies and AM flights to BJX and QRO what else could we realistically expect domestically my thoughts are the only other real add left is the 50 states is ANC anything else would pretty much surprise me. Ed Bastian also said the Detroit is in line for more international expansion and seeing that DTW is now moving a bit forward what can we see realistically. My thoughts would be the return of YHZ new year round service to YVR and YYC moving the YOW flying to WS with the Q400 as far as Canada goes. As far as Asia I really don't see them adding capacity there as they are moving connections away from Detroit in terms of the Asia traffic and Europe wise also don't really see anything that could be added outside of DUB and MAN or maybe some experimental flying with the 757 to some smaller markets. Would be interesting to hear all your thoughts and if you have heard any word going around in what direction Delta is going in internationally from Detroit.


let me rewrite this for you, so we can comprehend what you are saying:

So with Delta finally putting their money where there (their) mouth is (,) and making so real meaningful (this doesn't make sense) adds here in Detroit (,) mainly HNL, SJC, SMF, SNA and ORH (,) plus the addition of 4 extra LHR frequencies (,) and AM flights to BJX and QRO (,) what else could we realistically expect domestically (PERIOD) my thoughts are the only other real add left is the 50 states (is the 50 states? or "in" in the 50 states?) is ANC (period) anything else would pretty much surprise me. Ed Bastian also said the Detroit is in line for more international expansion (,) and seeing that DTW is now moving a bit forward (,) what can we see realistically. (QUESTION MARK, THIS IS A QUESTION!) My thoughts would be the return of YHZ new year round service to YVR and YYC moving the YOW flying to WS with the Q400 as far as Canada goes. As far as Asia (,) I really don't see them adding capacity there (should probably use the word "here") as they are moving connections away from Detroit in terms of ("in terms of?" that doesn't make sense) the Asia traffic and Europe wise also don't really see anything that could be added outside of DUB and MAN or maybe some experimental flying with the 757 to some smaller markets. Would be interesting to hear all your thoughts (,) and if you have heard any word going around in what direction Delta is going in internationally from Detroit.

My thoughts on international travel from Detroit would be adding some locations in Mexico and the Caribbean. As white collar jobs grow in Detroit, I feel Delta will follow the path of what they are doing in MSP, and give us more season destinations. Europe is saturated; however, maybe one of the Haneda slots opens up for DTW?
 
winginit
Posts: 2558
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:44 pm

klm617 wrote:
My thoughts would be the return of YHZ new year round service to YVR and YYC moving the YOW flying to WS with the Q400 as far as Canada goes.


Agree that you could see YHZ and YYC at the very least, but as the crux of DL and WS' JV application is that ATI between DL and WS is necessary for that new capacity to be launched, I would be very surprised if DL or WS launch any new transborder capacity prior to the JV being approved. Precedent says that will take maybe 6-12 months.

klm617 wrote:
Great news love it Detroit has been on quite a bit of a roll lately now let's hope for the return of ANC


When was the last time DTW-ANC was flown?
 
amadorE175
Posts: 194
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:25 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:56 pm

portcolumbus wrote:
DTW-SMF was flown before, right? I believe it was also an eastbound redeye.


Yes, started April 2010 with similar redeye schedule. Not sure when it ended.
 
klm617
Posts: 4473
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:08 pm

winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:
My thoughts would be the return of YHZ new year round service to YVR and YYC moving the YOW flying to WS with the Q400 as far as Canada goes.


Agree that you could see YHZ and YYC at the very least, but as the crux of DL and WS' JV application is that ATI between DL and WS is necessary for that new capacity to be launched, I would be very surprised if DL or WS launch any new transborder capacity prior to the JV being approved. Precedent says that will take maybe 6-12 months.

klm617 wrote:
Great news love it Detroit has been on quite a bit of a roll lately now let's hope for the return of ANC


When was the last time DTW-ANC was flown?



It's been a long time Delta has never flown it. Northwest operated the route summer only with a 757 it was a redeye from ANC to DTW
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
kavok
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:05 am

It has been rumored that 8 HND slots will be available to US carriers in 2020. DL is probably going to get about 3 of those slots, and the most logical adds are SEA, DTW, ATL. So I would think HND has a good chance in another year or two.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Oct 27, 2018 3:54 am

Unbelievable. 2 years ago, the top 3 unserved markets in the lower 48 were SNA, SJC, and SMF exclusively. Now, the top 3 unserved in the lower 48 are ELP, TUS, and ABQ...services well probably never see on DL in the near term.

What this tells me is, SNA did very well, so they decided to give SJC a try. SJC had spectacular bookings (hence the nearly immediate upgague to the 739) and will try to get a little risky and add SMF, a potential bust. It is up to the travelers that use DTW or use GRR, CLE, TVC, BUF, ALB, ROC, MHT, ELM, to connect in DTW to help fuel this SMF service. If DL reshuffled the schedule to include DTW a little more like they did with both SNA and SJC, thos route could be viewed as a long term assignment as opposed to a science experiment.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
GSP psgr
Posts: 661
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 7:09 am

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Oct 27, 2018 4:28 am

flymco753 wrote:
Unbelievable. 2 years ago, the top 3 unserved markets in the lower 48 were SNA, SJC, and SMF exclusively. Now, the top 3 unserved in the lower 48 are ELP, TUS, and ABQ...services well probably never see on DL in the near term.

What this tells me is, SNA did very well, so they decided to give SJC a try. SJC had spectacular bookings (hence the nearly immediate upgague to the 739) and will try to get a little risky and add SMF, a potential bust. It is up to the travelers that use DTW or use GRR, CLE, TVC, BUF, ALB, ROC, MHT, ELM, to connect in DTW to help fuel this SMF service. If DL reshuffled the schedule to include DTW a little more like they did with both SNA and SJC, thos route could be viewed as a long term assignment as opposed to a science experiment.


I'm agreed with you on ABQ. I could actually maybe see a peak seasonal to TUS. If the auto contracts decide they really want ELP badly enough, that could happen as well.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Oct 27, 2018 6:43 am

I’d be surprised if DL added ABQ, TUS or ELP. The next likely domestic destination is seasonal service to ANC or perhaps someplace offering incentive money (most likely a regional feeding market, but DAB has been targeting DTW with incentives for awhile).
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:32 pm

Didn't realize it until today but Delta doesn't even operate ATL-DUB year round so there is probably little chance of the operated it out of DTW let alone year round. Probably a very low yielding market like FCO and Delta just want's to scoop up the high end summer fares. So again this brings us back to the fact that the airport needs to aggressively pursue EI and work with them to do DTW-DUB so that we can have year round reliable service on the DTW-DUB route and give Detroit customers another option for traveling to Europe rather than I-94 or the 401.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:15 pm

AF 787-9 returns to Detroit today.
 
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compensateme
Posts: 3279
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:18 pm

klm617 wrote:
Didn't realize it until today but Delta doesn't even operate ATL-DUB year round so there is probably little chance of the operated it out of DTW let alone year round. Probably a very low yielding market like FCO and Delta just want's to scoop up the high end summer fares. So again this brings us back to the fact that the airport needs to aggressively pursue EI and work with them to do DTW-DUB so that we can have year round reliable service on the DTW-DUB route and give Detroit customers another option for traveling to Europe rather than I-94 or the 401.


DUB is a summer tourist market...
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
kavok
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:52 pm

Random pie in the sky idea. Is it possible DL could ever try DTW-KIX in the future? I have no data to back up whether this route could work (or whether it would be awful loads). But if the SEA-KIX flight works well out west, could DL also try DTW and make it work by capturing the eastern US connecting flow? Not suggesting it, just curious why such a route is or is not possible. Thanks.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:19 pm

compensateme wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Didn't realize it until today but Delta doesn't even operate ATL-DUB year round so there is probably little chance of the operated it out of DTW let alone year round. Probably a very low yielding market like FCO and Delta just want's to scoop up the high end summer fares. So again this brings us back to the fact that the airport needs to aggressively pursue EI and work with them to do DTW-DUB so that we can have year round reliable service on the DTW-DUB route and give Detroit customers another option for traveling to Europe rather than I-94 or the 401.


DUB is a summer tourist market...


Exactly another reason why EI should be a priority over DL on this route as the can fill planes with beyond passenger all over the European continent were as Delta's traffic would predicate on the fact that all those passengers would terminate at DUB which is like you say a seasonable market.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:09 am

Once again Detroit gets an honorable mention from Qatar Airways this is from a July 2018 article.

Targets still stand

Despite the blockade, al Baker is still keen to hit the airline’s target of operating 250 routes by 2022, up from just under 160 routes that the airline is currently operating in the wake of the blockade.

The US is a target, with new routes for San Francisco and Los Angeles announced, while Detroit is looking likely to be introduced, though this depends on the US economy. Airbus A350s and Boeing 777s are the metal of choice for the routes.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
BenflysDTW
Posts: 282
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:39 am

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:26 am

I would welcome a QR addition. A lot of bags go on EK on the afternoon BOS flight (hence the A320.) unfortunately however the A320 is being downgauged in a couple weeks and the A320 won’t return. Anyways, there are some QR bags on B6 (10-15) usually. I don’t see QR coming soon though, hasn’t it been over two years since they started ATL, LAX, BOS? LAX is already served, and they never started LAS or SFO despite both routes being formally announced. EK would defiantly work, but the future of B6 at DTW would be uncertain.
 
gnakra80
Posts: 23
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:27 am

klm617 wrote:
Once again Detroit gets an honorable mention from Qatar Airways this is from a July 2018 article.

Targets still stand

Despite the blockade, al Baker is still keen to hit the airline’s target of operating 250 routes by 2022, up from just under 160 routes that the airline is currently operating in the wake of the blockade.

The US is a target, with new routes for San Francisco and Los Angeles announced, while Detroit is looking likely to be introduced, though this depends on the US economy. Airbus A350s and Boeing 777s are the metal of choice for the routes.



Here is the link you should be referencing:
https://www.ttgmedia.com/news/routes/op ... ways-14706
 
EBiafore99
Posts: 97
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:51 am

kavok wrote:
Random pie in the sky idea. Is it possible DL could ever try DTW-KIX in the future? I have no data to back up whether this route could work (or whether it would be awful loads). But if the SEA-KIX flight works well out west, could DL also try DTW and make it work by capturing the eastern US connecting flow? Not suggesting it, just curious why such a route is or is not possible. Thanks.


I believe DTW-KIX was always tagged with MNL or TPE with NW, so I'm not sure DTW-KIX was ever a viable route on its own.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:34 pm

compensateme wrote:
(most likely a regional feeding market, but DAB has been targeting DTW with incentives for awhile).
I analyze that DAB would be a market on its own. DL could still run 7x MCO in March with the 8th weekend flight and run DAB. More or less, DAB can compliment MCO if it's flown on a 717 or A319. With DL taking some E7W's and putting them into DTW, I'd like to see EYW. The market is around 80 PDEW peak season, and is high yielding. MLB and VPS could be ran on a CR9, MLB is another market that could compliment MCO. However, adding both DAB and MLB would probably hurt MCO just a tad, so the most likely add would be DAB on the 717 or A319.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
drdisque
Posts: 1118
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:04 pm

I suspect there just isn't a huge market from the Upper-midwest to DAB and that MLB might actually be a stronger market.

I agree that with the E7W, EYW is viable (with how much UA is growing capacity there this winter that's quite apparent). I actually worry if UA's growth will leave no room for DL to grow their already quite large operation.

With regard to KIX - there is not much O&D traffic between the US and KIX and most of it is Japan-originating. With the advent of the NH/UA and JL/AA Joint-Ventures, nearly all that traffic has moved to those alliances and away from DL. KE has a lot of service on KIX-ICN (4x daily, 3 of which are widebodies) so that's probably DL's most efficient way to serve KIX in addition to the SEA flight which only exists because it can be flown with the 767.
 
drdisque
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:05 pm

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Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos