Just thought I would share this on the corruption at the airport makes you wonder how deep this really goes how much insider information and protection is really going on. I bet that $1.5 million wasted money would have gone a long way if it was offered to EI to start DTW-DUB.

https://www.macombdaily.com/news/copsco ... dafdf.html

klm617 wrote:

Just thought I would share this on the corruption at the airport makes you wonder how deep this really goes how much insider information and protection is really going on. I bet that $1.5 million wasted money would have gone a long way if it was offered to EI to start DTW-DUB.

https://www.macombdaily.com/news/copsco ... dafdf.html

Speak clearly - don't beat around the bush. Are you implying that because a contractor and his buddy worked to commit and conceal fraud by way of charging the airport authority for deicing salt that was never deployed that there is deeper, broader corruption within the WCAA?

winginit wrote:

klm617 wrote:

Just thought I would share this on the corruption at the airport makes you wonder how deep this really goes how much insider information and protection is really going on. I bet that $1.5 million wasted money would have gone a long way if it was offered to EI to start DTW-DUB.

https://www.macombdaily.com/news/copsco ... dafdf.html

Speak clearly - don't beat around the bush. Are you implying that because a contractor and his buddy worked to commit and conceal fraud by way of charging the airport authority for deicing salt that was never deployed that there is deeper, broader corruption within the WCAA?

Not saying that at all just saying if they can come up with 1.5 mil to pay this phony contractor the monies could have been used to help attract EI. But I think aggressively pursuing alternatives at DTW is frowned upon.

Should WOW Air go under does anyone think somebody will jump right in to fill the void that WOW Air would leave being they have held onto Detroit while cutting many other larger and equal sized markets meaning there must be a market for that kind of service in Detroit ?

klm617 wrote:

Should WOW Air go under does anyone think somebody will jump right in to fill the void that WOW Air would leave being they have held onto Detroit while cutting many other larger and equal sized markets meaning there must be a market for that kind of service in Detroit ?

A very concerning report this morning has me thinking that the scenario where WW totally fold and liquidate is becoming more and more likely.

I think it's possible that FI would backfill, but it wouldn't be a near-term play. Let's be clear WOW Air has not proven that you can profitably operate KEF-DTW through the deep trough that is the Winter season. If we were having this conversation in say May and WW had posted good LFs throughout that might be one thing, but that's not where we stand. Plain and simple - the market hasn't proved itself as year-round viable and FI are unlikely to want to roll the dice there at least on a year-round basis.

Secondly, I don't think FI have the fleet slack to quickly fill much of anything that WW might vacate if they go under, and if frames do come available I think there might be a few cities that FI prioritize before DTW - namely EWR and LAX.

WW is likely to become a sub-brand of FI and DTW imho is likely to stay because FI has gotten very good at challenging and beating DL in their hub markets.

drdisque wrote:

WW is likely to become a sub-brand of FI and DTW imho is likely to stay because FI has gotten very good at challenging and beating DL in their hub markets.

Elaborate on that please. How is it that FI is beating DL in their hub markets? I'm assuming you mean JFK and MSP in that that's where DL also flies to KEF from, but I'd be surprised if you had any sort of access to DL or FI's internal financials given you've strongly implied on this forum that you work for UA.

DL has launched competitive service from JFK, BOS, and MSP and FI is still there. They also fly to SEA. They know how DL prices TATL in markets they dominate and they know how to undercut enough to fill the plane them yet still make money.

klm617 wrote:

Should WOW Air go under does anyone think somebody will jump right in to fill the void that WOW Air would leave being they have held onto Detroit while cutting many other larger and equal sized markets meaning there must be a market for that kind of service in Detroit ?

I'm sure that WW is still analyzing what options are available. They are hemorrhaging money, so I expect more cuts across their system. I suspect that FI might pick up some routes, but if routes weren't generating income, for WW, I don't suspect FI to jump on them.

drdisque wrote:

DL has launched competitive service from JFK, BOS, and MSP and FI is still there. They also fly to SEA. They know how DL prices TATL in markets they dominate and they know how to undercut enough to fill the plane them yet still make money.

Delta does not, and has not ever to my knowledge, flown BOS-KEF. Also, do you have a source to back your claim that FI is profitable in JFK, SEA, or MSP? That appears to be speculation on your part and should be identified as such.

winginit wrote:

drdisque wrote:

DL has launched competitive service from JFK, BOS, and MSP and FI is still there. They also fly to SEA. They know how DL prices TATL in markets they dominate and they know how to undercut enough to fill the plane them yet still make money.

Delta does not, and has not ever to my knowledge, flown BOS-KEF.

Sorry, I confused it with their BOS-DUB flight. My point remains, FI knows how to stick in DL hub markets.

drdisque wrote:

winginit wrote:

drdisque wrote:

DL has launched competitive service from JFK, BOS, and MSP and FI is still there. They also fly to SEA. They know how DL prices TATL in markets they dominate and they know how to undercut enough to fill the plane them yet still make money.

Delta does not, and has not ever to my knowledge, flown BOS-KEF.

Sorry, I confused it with their BOS-DUB flight. My point remains, FI knows how to stick in DL hub markets.

So they know how to exist in some Delta hub markets. Very different than what you initially stated, which was that FI was beating DL in DL's hubs:

drdisque wrote:

FI has gotten very good at challenging and beating DL in their hub markets.

lavalampluva wrote:

I'm sure that WW is still analyzing what options are available. They are hemorrhaging money, so I expect more cuts across their system. I suspect that FI might pick up some routes, but if routes weren't generating income, for WW, I don't suspect FI to jump on them.

Spot on. It's simply too early to tell.

winginit wrote:

klm617 wrote:

Should WOW Air go under does anyone think somebody will jump right in to fill the void that WOW Air would leave being they have held onto Detroit while cutting many other larger and equal sized markets meaning there must be a market for that kind of service in Detroit ?

A very concerning report this morning has me thinking that the scenario where WW totally fold and liquidate is becoming more and more likely.

I think it's possible that FI would backfill, but it wouldn't be a near-term play. Let's be clear WOW Air has not proven that you can profitably operate KEF-DTW through the deep trough that is the Winter season. If we were having this conversation in say May and WW had posted good LFs throughout that might be one thing, but that's not where we stand. Plain and simple - the market hasn't proved itself as year-round viable and FI are unlikely to want to roll the dice there at least on a year-round basis.

Secondly, I don't think FI have the fleet slack to quickly fill much of anything that WW might vacate if they go under, and if frames do come available I think there might be a few cities that FI prioritize before DTW - namely EWR and LAX.

What would lead you to believe that DTW-KEF has not proven itself yet as being viable year round. As of yet (Crossing my fingers) it is operating unchanged so it has to be generating something otherwise it would have followed CVG, CLE, STL and PIT by being eliminated. DTW can be done on a 737 while LAX requires a widebody and the New York market is served through JFK. Neither airline operate both markets year round WW's JFK is seasonal and FI has never served EWR. Time will tell but again you don't give DTW the credit it deserve as far as being viable you always paint a picture of this market in a negative way which I don't get.

klm617 wrote:

What would lead you to believe that DTW-KEF has not proven itself yet as being viable year round.

Maybe an example that's relatable for you might best explain it: a-hem
___

"Hey klm617, you should invest in this jacket that I have to keep you warm throughout the Winter I've been wearing it and it's really great."

"Oh really? It'll keep me warm in December and when it gets really cold in January and February?"

"Well, we're sitting here in November and it's worked out okay so far and I planned to wear it through the Winter so yeah it's viable year round to keep you warm for sure. It's proven that."

"But how do you know that? How has it proven that it's warm enough? You've never worn it in January or February when it's coldest"

"I know because I was planning on wearing it through the Winter!

___

DTW-KEF is the jacket, and it hasn't been tested, so we have no idea whether or not it's viable and won't until it's been tested.

winginit wrote:

klm617 wrote:

What would lead you to believe that DTW-KEF has not proven itself yet as being viable year round.

Maybe an example that's relatable for you might best explain it: a-hem
___

"Hey klm617, you should invest in this jacket that I have to keep you warm throughout the Winter I've been wearing it and it's really great."

"Oh really? It'll keep me warm in December and when it gets really cold in January and February?"

"Well, we're sitting here in November and it's worked out okay so far and I planned to wear it through the Winter so yeah it's viable year round to keep you warm for sure. It's proven that."

"But how do you know that? How has it proven that it's warm enough? You've never worn it in January or February when it's coldest"

"I know because I was planning on wearing it through the Winter!

___

DTW-KEF is the jacket, and it hasn't been tested, so we have no idea whether or not it's viable and won't until it's been tested.

Sorry as I told you before I am the glass is half full kind of guy while you seem to be a glass half empty type of guy so being it is still bookable through OCT 2019 in my eyes carries a lot of weight when it's an airline that is struggling with cash flow and for me it's working until it proves that it's not viable for you it's the opposite. So that being said there has to be something there for DTW-KEF to still be operating in the situation that WOW is in right now. Now if I were the WCAA I would be already knocking on Icelandair door daily again burning the midnight oil get figures together to convince them to pick up the route should WOW go under. This link is more important than most realize and the airport should be doing everything it can to make sure it continues to operate.

klm617 wrote:

Sorry as I told you before I am the glass is half full kind of guy while you seem to be a glass half empty type of guy so being it is still bookable through OCT 2019 in my eyes carries a lot of weight when it's an airline that is struggling with cash flow and for me it's working until it proves that it's not viable for you it's the opposite.

Commercial aviation is a glass half empty industry and rightfully so - you would do well to learn that.

I'm seeing 5x to BDL next June. Potentially preparing for NK?

Once FI gets the information about how WW did from their point of study, I wouldn't be surprised to see it picked up fairly quickly. Let me point out what I see from the US side of statistics. KEF was the fastest growing European destination from DTW this summer at nearly twice the amount before a nonstop was offered, and KEF grew twice YoY from last year. WOW was able to price higher, they've been yielding fares just about as much as FI could be posting as they do in peer markets.

Lastly, LF's. Averaging mid 90s ever since the birth of WOW's service. Without a doubt, FI could fly a 757 4x weekly and be fine.

Someone gave me the data, please dont ask who it's from. LFs are calculated from WCAA statistics.

winginit wrote:

klm617 wrote:

Should WOW Air go under does anyone think somebody will jump right in to fill the void that WOW Air would leave being they have held onto Detroit while cutting many other larger and equal sized markets meaning there must be a market for that kind of service in Detroit ?

A very concerning report this morning has me thinking that the scenario where WW totally fold and liquidate is becoming more and more likely.

I think it's possible that FI would backfill, but it wouldn't be a near-term play. Let's be clear WOW Air has not proven that you can profitably operate KEF-DTW through the deep trough that is the Winter season. If we were having this conversation in say May and WW had posted good LFs throughout that might be one thing, but that's not where we stand. Plain and simple - the market hasn't proved itself as year-round viable and FI are unlikely to want to roll the dice there at least on a year-round basis.

Secondly, I don't think FI have the fleet slack to quickly fill much of anything that WW might vacate if they go under, and if frames do come available I think there might be a few cities that FI prioritize before DTW - namely EWR and LAX.

By the way FI already serves EWR and a widebody would be needed for LAX so neither of your options would impact DTW being added by FI. So with that being said FI should be waiting in the wings to pick up DTW should WOW fail let's hope though that WOW Air survives as they are showing faith and commitment to the Detroit market.

flymco753 wrote:

Once FI gets the information about how WW did from their point of study, I wouldn't be surprised to see it picked up fairly quickly. Let me point out what I see from the US side of statistics. KEF was the fastest growing European destination from DTW this summer at nearly twice the amount before a nonstop was offered, and KEF grew twice YoY from last year. WOW was able to price higher, they've been yielding fares just about as much as FI could be posting as they do in peer markets.

Lastly, LF's. Averaging mid 90s ever since the birth of WOW's service. Without a doubt, FI could fly a 757 4x weekly and be fine.

Someone gave me the data, please dont ask who it's from. LFs are calculated from WCAA statistics.

And that's really the key they didn't have to offer all those cheap fares in Detroit like they have to in the large markets like ORD, BOS and NYC where they faced stiff competition. So yes Detroit would be a solid addition for FI as they don't have to offer rock bottom fares out of Detroit.

It's still bleak though. Might have to wait until spring 2020 for FI ans EI for Fall 2020.

flymco753 wrote:

It's still bleak though. Might have to wait until spring 2020 for FI ans EI for Fall 2020.

The problem is though that might be to much capacity at once injected into the Detroit market for both to do well. At least if FI jumped in for summer 2019 it gives them time to get their foot in the door before EI comes in if it does. If we have to wait until 2020 for any of those new services then once again it show how important it would have been to catch DTW-DUB on this round of additions.

Some good news for DTW.

Delta has announced today that having rolled biometrics out at ATL's Terminal F, they'll move in 2019 to roll it out across the DTW airport.

Please avoid off topic comments and personal attacks.

✈️ atcsundevil

WW kind of followed the NAX example They added too many destinations at one time, if they had controlled their growth from one city to the next they would have a stable budget. But it may look like Wow will have to pull out of DTW in the next couple of months.

Stay classy WCAA.... https://www.wxyz.com/news/local-news/in ... WiwcTOw1oo

Some things never seem to change in Metro Detroit are politiics.

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

Stay classy WCAA.... https://www.wxyz.com/news/local-news/in ... WiwcTOw1oo

Some things never seem to change in Metro Detroit are politiics.

This is so unbelievable! You've basically hired a cop to be the new CEO of the WCAA, which oversees two airports. Without a world-wide perspective and formal background in aviation and/or management, I can only see this boding well for Delta Air Lines as they will dictate the show at DTW.

At least some of the directors know what they're doing. I wouldn't have to worry about air service. The director of air service development knows what he's doing.

winginit wrote:

Some good news for DTW.

Delta has announced today that having rolled biometrics out at ATL's Terminal F, they'll move in 2019 to roll it out across the DTW airport.

I hope this puts the whole DL commitment to DTW issue to bed. No surprise the mothership (ATL) was first; however, I do think it says a lot that DTW is the next in line.

DL is ending DTW-GRU next summer. It is pulled from DL's booking system.

However, just because we lost GRU, that increases the chance of getting an airline like Copa that will serve good connectivity to South America.

I guess I’m not really surprised. We had a lot of discussion about it not too long ago when DL dropped MCO-GRU and we thought DTW was going away with it then. Not sure how much of it is because of DTW specifically or as much as how DL’a network aligns with service to GRU overall. It’s also a high opportunity cost route since the aircraft sits on the ground all day in GRU.

DTW is not a big market for central and South America and there are other hubs that are better positioned for those traffic flows.

The only 2 places in Central America that could work is SJO for Delta or Spirit and PTY for Copa. SJO has a decent amount of traffic in the winter.

DTW and MSP-HNL are both upgauged to the 764 next summer. Fares on DTW-HNL “pathetically” low — as of last week, you could travel Saturday-to-Saturday next summer for RT$622, less than the cost of a RT from LAX...

Speaking of low fares, B6’s exit from FLL sent fares soaring. For the past few years, FLL has been about the cheapest place you could buy a ticket to on DL, with advanced purchase fares generally around $75-$100. I’ve noticed that on most (non midweek) days, the fares are now trending $150-200. It was fun while it lasted...

Haha, HNL wont last long...

If DL doesn’t fly MSP-SJO. How would DTW-SJO? Copa DTW-PTY maybe

Antoli0794 wrote:

If DL doesn’t fly MSP-SJO. How would DTW-SJO? Copa DTW-PTY maybe

AA can’t make DFW-PTY work. Good luck with DTW-PTY.

nomorerjs wrote:

Antoli0794 wrote:

If DL doesn’t fly MSP-SJO. How would DTW-SJO? Copa DTW-PTY maybe

AA can’t make DFW-PTY work. Good luck with DTW-PTY.

AA couldn’t make ORD-PVG work. In an interview with Crain’s, DL identified DTW-PVG as its top international local revenue generating route at DTW, and one of the top local revenue generating in the system. What’s your point?

compensateme wrote:

nomorerjs wrote:

Antoli0794 wrote:

If DL doesn’t fly MSP-SJO. How would DTW-SJO? Copa DTW-PTY maybe

AA can’t make DFW-PTY work. Good luck with DTW-PTY.

AA couldn’t make ORD-PVG work. In an interview with Crain’s, DL identified DTW-PVG as its top international local revenue generating route at DTW, and one of the top local revenue generating in the system. What’s your point?

I forgot, DTW “prints money” on all routes! Apparently that was mentioned to GRU.

Well ORD-PVG had 19 weekly flights as did ORD-PEK with Chinese carriers offering insane fares. Let’s see how DTW-China does with GM gutting management and moving jobs to Mexico (notice the new DTW-Mexico auto hub jobs added)?

What does DTW-PTY offer? ORD works as Chicago has 10m people and * at both ends.

I found a flight to GRU on October 27th, the GRU cut seems to be a seasonal suspension at least as of now. My question is, does anyone know what they are doing with the aircraft? I thought that they would be healthy with GRU in the summer. If they do end up keeping it, it’ll be a good week for DTW.
WOW hasn’t cut, leaving ORD and DTW their only midwestern cities.
Despite Spirit’s AUS add, F9 seems to have added another frequency on it , so x4 weekly.
QRO + BJX to daily, (even Saturday’s !?!?)
SLP is 4 weekly I believe. Does any one have the O/D for this?
And what about DTW-GDL?
Interesting week.

nomorerjs wrote:

compensateme wrote:

nomorerjs wrote:

AA can’t make DFW-PTY work. Good luck with DTW-PTY.

AA couldn’t make ORD-PVG work. In an interview with Crain’s, DL identified DTW-PVG as its top international local revenue generating route at DTW, and one of the top local revenue generating in the system. What’s your point?

I forgot, DTW “prints money” on all routes! Apparently that was mentioned to GRU.

Well ORD-PVG had 19 weekly flights as did ORD-PEK with Chinese carriers offering insane fares. Let’s see how DTW-China does with GM gutting management and moving jobs to Mexico (notice the new DTW-Mexico auto hub jobs added)?

What does DTW-PTY offer? ORD works as Chicago has 10m people and * at both ends.

Where have I made any such assertions? I never claimed PTY would or world not work, YOU claimed it would not work. And given in the past you’ve stated that you make your living as an airline consultant, I expect more from you than an amateur a.net response of ‘PTY won’t work since AA can’t make it work from DFW.’ As I pointed out, that’s foolhardly logic; one of DL’s top performing routes was one of AA’s worst performing routes, from a hub in a much larger market less than 30 minutes flying time away.

I’m skeptical of PTY service, but in an era of CHS-LHR, RNO-LGW (cancelled only because of facility issues), CLT-GDL, SEA-SIN, ORD-AKL, etc., nothing would surprise me really.

Everybody on a.net is a hometown cheerleader, just as you are for ORD and DFW. I want my hometown airport to thrive, but I’m also very rational. It’s somewhat sickening to watch grown adults - many of who’ve been on these fourms for years - wish the death of and destruction of cities & industries who have hubs that compete with their hometown...

BenflysDTW wrote:

I found a flight to GRU on October 27th, the GRU cut seems to be a seasonal suspension at least as of now. My question is, does anyone know what they are doing with the aircraft? I thought that they would be healthy with GRU in the summer. If they do end up keeping it, it’ll be a good week for DTW.
WOW hasn’t cut, leaving ORD and DTW their only midwestern cities.
Despite Spirit’s AUS add, F9 seems to have added another frequency on it , so x4 weekly.
QRO + BJX to daily, (even Saturday’s !?!?)
SLP is 4 weekly I believe. Does any one have the O/D for this?
And what about DTW-GDL?
Interesting week.

GRU is a seasonal suspension for now, largely covering the period in which DL’s longhaul fleet is “maxed out.” GRU eats a lot of aircraft time — 40-44 hours (depending on where it’s being rotated to). There’s slack in the fleet in the late fall/winter months, so maybe it’ll return...

I believe that was a 330 I wonder where that aircraft will go?

Probably on that 6x weekly NGO

Compensateme raises the point that is a summer seasonal reduction for now, which leads me to believe DL woud rather maxmize its fleet moving it to peak summer TATL flying where they can get in 2 TATL roundtrips per aircraft versus 1 DTW-GRU rotation per aircraft.

compensateme wrote:

BenflysDTW wrote:

I found a flight to GRU on October 27th, the GRU cut seems to be a seasonal suspension at least as of now. My question is, does anyone know what they are doing with the aircraft? I thought that they would be healthy with GRU in the summer. If they do end up keeping it, it’ll be a good week for DTW.
WOW hasn’t cut, leaving ORD and DTW their only midwestern cities.
Despite Spirit’s AUS add, F9 seems to have added another frequency on it , so x4 weekly.
QRO + BJX to daily, (even Saturday’s !?!?)
SLP is 4 weekly I believe. Does any one have the O/D for this?
And what about DTW-GDL?
Interesting week.

GRU is a seasonal suspension for now, largely covering the period in which DL’s longhaul fleet is “maxed out.” GRU eats a lot of aircraft time — 40-44 hours (depending on where it’s being rotated to). There’s slack in the fleet in the late fall/winter months, so maybe it’ll return...

Is there a source that it is being suspended for just the summer or is this an assumption? It is very common for recently cut DL routes to show up at the end of the booking window for few weeks after the cut was made. Sometimes the flights at the end of the schedule will appear and disappear multiple times before finally disappearing (CVG-XNA did this for at least a month).

I'm really liking all these Mexico adds, it is certainly nice to see AM try to grow secondary markets from DTW. Hopefully these increases/adds stick.

cvgComair wrote:

compensateme wrote:

BenflysDTW wrote:

I found a flight to GRU on October 27th, the GRU cut seems to be a seasonal suspension at least as of now. My question is, does anyone know what they are doing with the aircraft? I thought that they would be healthy with GRU in the summer. If they do end up keeping it, it’ll be a good week for DTW.
WOW hasn’t cut, leaving ORD and DTW their only midwestern cities.
Despite Spirit’s AUS add, F9 seems to have added another frequency on it , so x4 weekly.
QRO + BJX to daily, (even Saturday’s !?!?)
SLP is 4 weekly I believe. Does any one have the O/D for this?
And what about DTW-GDL?
Interesting week.

GRU is a seasonal suspension for now, largely covering the period in which DL’s longhaul fleet is “maxed out.” GRU eats a lot of aircraft time — 40-44 hours (depending on where it’s being rotated to). There’s slack in the fleet in the late fall/winter months, so maybe it’ll return...

Is there a source that it is being suspended for just the summer or is this an assumption? It is very common for recently cut DL routes to show up at the end of the booking window for few weeks after the cut was made. Sometimes the flights at the end of the schedule will appear and disappear multiple times before finally disappearing (CVG-XNA did this for at least a month).

I'm really liking all these Mexico adds, it is certainly nice to see AM try to grow secondary markets from DTW. Hopefully these increases/adds stick.

It’s a valid assumption on my end; all fare buckets are available for sale beginning October 27th, so presumably DL intends on resuming the flight. I have never seen an instance you’re describing — as I pointed out earlier this year, while CVG-XNA remained in the GDS, the flight was zero’d out. Needlessly leaving long haul flights open for sale would be fairly foolish, given more “cheaper” award tickets may be sold than intended, so I’m sure DL would patch it.

That said, it wouldn’t surprise me if the flight was completely pulled, but I suspect opportunity cost prevailed here.

Enilria: Resumes in October
**DL DTW-GRU APR 0.4>0[0.4] MAY 0.5>0[0.4] JUN 0.4>0[0.4] JUL 0.4>0[0.4] AUG 0.4>0[0.5] SEP 0.4>0[0.4]

Opportunity cost for new A333 is less in the Northern Winter and South America traffic is generally higher, so this could work outside of the busy European summer for DL's limited widebodies.

Hopefully you are right and it resumes in October. I definitely hate to see reductions.

I think we may see some temorary crazy international schedule changes over the next year or two as the auto industry attempts to figure itself out again

Aeromexico connect added another route. DTW-SLP. Beginning May 1st, 2019