lavalampluva
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:09 pm

Surprised our favorite DTW fan boy hasn't been around. DTW got a lot of love this weekend. :mrgreen:
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:07 pm

dtwpilot225 wrote:
I think we may see some temorary crazy international schedule changes over the next year or two as the auto industry attempts to figure itself out again


We’re likely headed into a recession; Detroit is just (finally?) trying to be proactive. Reality is, if it wasn’t for the markets responding positively to the election of a conservative administration in 2016, we’d likely be there by now.

A significant recession could bring us into a new era. Every hub will feel pain, but I’d expect ATL to feel the most, simply because of its sheer size - e.g. DTW might lose its summer flight to CUN and pullback from Florida, but ATL has seven flights to CUN and oceans more capacity into Florida.

As discussed before, ATL has become the primary (or secondary) connection point to many Midwestern markets that it had minimal (if any) presence in prior to the merger. Much of this was built on using larger capacity aircraft to ATL that relied on-but was more cost efficient at-carrying leaiure traffic. If the recession is severe enough, it wouldn’t be surprising to see DL park the 717 fleet and pull back on this strategy.
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:20 pm

compensateme wrote:
dtwpilot225 wrote:
I think we may see some temorary crazy international schedule changes over the next year or two as the auto industry attempts to figure itself out again


We’re likely headed into a recession; Detroit is just (finally?) trying to be proactive. Reality is, if it wasn’t for the markets responding positively to the election of a conservative administration in 2016, we’d likely be there by now.

A significant recession could bring us into a new era. Every hub will feel pain, but I’d expect ATL to feel the most, simply because of its sheer size - e.g. DTW might lose its summer flight to CUN and pullback from Florida, but ATL has seven flights to CUN and oceans more capacity into Florida.

As discussed before, ATL has become the primary (or secondary) connection point to many Midwestern markets that it had minimal (if any) presence in prior to the merger. Much of this was built on using larger capacity aircraft to ATL that relied on-but was more cost efficient at-carrying leaiure traffic. If the recession is severe enough, it wouldn’t be surprising to see DL park the 717 fleet and pull back on this strategy.
I don't think it would hurt MCO as much as it would hurt others. This is where Spirit is going to benefit from. They're in the Miami area with FLL and have token flights to PBI for the excess winter traffic. Those services will stay. TPA, RSW, and JAX would hurt in the summer and be strong again for the winter. MCO is always strong. Even during the last recession I remember NK and DL still had a decent amount of seats in the market even during the summer months. In 2009/10 I flew to Detroit probably about 16 times or so and always got the 757 with Delta and the A321 with Spirit.
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:14 pm

flymco753 wrote:
compensateme wrote:
dtwpilot225 wrote:
I think we may see some temorary crazy international schedule changes over the next year or two as the auto industry attempts to figure itself out again


We’re likely headed into a recession; Detroit is just (finally?) trying to be proactive. Reality is, if it wasn’t for the markets responding positively to the election of a conservative administration in 2016, we’d likely be there by now.

A significant recession could bring us into a new era. Every hub will feel pain, but I’d expect ATL to feel the most, simply because of its sheer size - e.g. DTW might lose its summer flight to CUN and pullback from Florida, but ATL has seven flights to CUN and oceans more capacity into Florida.

As discussed before, ATL has become the primary (or secondary) connection point to many Midwestern markets that it had minimal (if any) presence in prior to the merger. Much of this was built on using larger capacity aircraft to ATL that relied on-but was more cost efficient at-carrying leaiure traffic. If the recession is severe enough, it wouldn’t be surprising to see DL park the 717 fleet and pull back on this strategy.
I don't think it would hurt MCO as much as it would hurt others. This is where Spirit is going to benefit from. They're in the Miami area with FLL and have token flights to PBI for the excess winter traffic. Those services will stay. TPA, RSW, and JAX would hurt in the summer and be strong again for the winter. MCO is always strong. Even during the last recession I remember NK and DL still had a decent amount of seats in the market even during the summer months. In 2009/10 I flew to Detroit probably about 16 times or so and always got the 757 with Delta and the A321 with Spirit.


I’d be surprised if MCO wasn’t impacted by a recession. After some initial pain, LAS practically thrived during the post-9/11 downturn... then got hammered during the Great Recession. LAS only surpassed its pre-recession traffic level last year. MCO, OTOH, survived the Great Recession unscathed. MCO/SFB’s traffic has swelled 25%+ since the Great Recession. In the early 2000s, Las Vegas was seen as a place people could “escape” the troubled economy; Central Florida held that designation during the Great Recession. Given the huge increase in attraction, entertainment and hotel pricing (which parallel’s LAS in the early 2000s), I wouldn’t be surprised to see MCO take a big hit. History has a way of repeating itself.
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:33 pm

compensateme wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
compensateme wrote:

We’re likely headed into a recession; Detroit is just (finally?) trying to be proactive. Reality is, if it wasn’t for the markets responding positively to the election of a conservative administration in 2016, we’d likely be there by now.

A significant recession could bring us into a new era. Every hub will feel pain, but I’d expect ATL to feel the most, simply because of its sheer size - e.g. DTW might lose its summer flight to CUN and pullback from Florida, but ATL has seven flights to CUN and oceans more capacity into Florida.

As discussed before, ATL has become the primary (or secondary) connection point to many Midwestern markets that it had minimal (if any) presence in prior to the merger. Much of this was built on using larger capacity aircraft to ATL that relied on-but was more cost efficient at-carrying leaiure traffic. If the recession is severe enough, it wouldn’t be surprising to see DL park the 717 fleet and pull back on this strategy.
I don't think it would hurt MCO as much as it would hurt others. This is where Spirit is going to benefit from. They're in the Miami area with FLL and have token flights to PBI for the excess winter traffic. Those services will stay. TPA, RSW, and JAX would hurt in the summer and be strong again for the winter. MCO is always strong. Even during the last recession I remember NK and DL still had a decent amount of seats in the market even during the summer months. In 2009/10 I flew to Detroit probably about 16 times or so and always got the 757 with Delta and the A321 with Spirit.


I’d be surprised if MCO wasn’t impacted by a recession. After some initial pain, LAS practically thrived during the post-9/11 downturn... then got hammered during the Great Recession. LAS only surpassed its pre-recession traffic level last year. MCO, OTOH, survived the Great Recession unscathed. MCO/SFB’s traffic has swelled 25%+ since the Great Recession. In the early 2000s, Las Vegas was seen as a place people could “escape” the troubled economy; Central Florida held that designation during the Great Recession. Given the huge increase in attraction, entertainment and hotel pricing (which parallel’s LAS in the early 2000s), I wouldn’t be surprised to see MCO take a big hit. History has a way of repeating itself.
Good points for sure. I think international traffic will dwindle worse than domestic. A lot of these token flights would go away, and it has already started with JJ cutting FOR. GOL had a little to do with it too, but Brazil's economy is hurting. Only people from everywhere else will come to the parks with nobody going out other than the tourism traffic.
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:09 pm

DTW set the another monthly O&D record for the month of September. Third month in a row now where 2018 is setting new monthly highs for O&D.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:23 am

GRU is loaded as a weekly flight (Sunday put, Monday in) beginning Oct. 27. If this is in error (e.g. the route is cancelled), it’ll probably be resolved tonight. If that’s indeed the case, I wonder if it’s because:

A) WCAA wasn’t agressove enough;
B) There wasn’t enough cargo; or
C) Because DL doesnt have the 787!
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:57 am

Yes WCAA was not burning the midnight oil and knocking on doors every day enough with DL to make it happen.

Then again it’s Friday night and I perhaps have had too many adult beverages to be posting on a.net
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:17 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Yes WCAA was not burning the midnight oil and knocking on doors every day enough with DL to make it happen.

Then again it’s Friday night and I perhaps have had too many adult beverages to be posting on a.net


I think that’s a requisite for reading a.net.

But per local media reports, FCA is converting an idled plant into production. And Elon Musk said that Tesla will evaluate the idled GM plants (haha). Guess all that talk about the demise of DTW didn’t last long!
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:33 pm

Aeromexico in partnership with Delta will commence 3x weekly flights between DTW and Guadalajara beginning in May 2019. Aircraft is an Aerolitoral E190.
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:53 pm

Wow, the DL-AM joint venture has been a windfall in New Mexico service to DTW.

Let’s hope it sticks, but at the very least they are trying.
 
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:55 pm

I’ve passed through DTW several times lately and have yet to spot an AeroMexico jet yet. Just poor timing on my part, but DTW seems to have taken its self from great to excellent lately on the delta side of the house. Any expected impacts the airport will feel with the tram shutting down? Also anyone know what work is actually being done?
 
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:06 pm

Midwestfly wrote:
I’ve passed through DTW several times lately and have yet to spot an AeroMexico jet yet. Just poor timing on my part, but DTW seems to have taken its self from great to excellent lately on the delta side of the house. Any expected impacts the airport will feel with the tram shutting down? Also anyone know what work is actually being done?
Well apparently they cant do golf carts because of an incident that happened back at the old Davey days where a golf cart blew through a window.
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Midwestfly
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:26 pm

flymco753 wrote:
Midwestfly wrote:
I’ve passed through DTW several times lately and have yet to spot an AeroMexico jet yet. Just poor timing on my part, but DTW seems to have taken its self from great to excellent lately on the delta side of the house. Any expected impacts the airport will feel with the tram shutting down? Also anyone know what work is actually being done?
Well apparently they cant do golf carts because of an incident that happened back at the old Davey days where a golf cart blew through a window.

Some how I’m not surprised this happened.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Dec 09, 2018 5:16 pm

flymco753 wrote:
Midwestfly wrote:
I’ve passed through DTW several times lately and have yet to spot an AeroMexico jet yet. Just poor timing on my part, but DTW seems to have taken its self from great to excellent lately on the delta side of the house. Any expected impacts the airport will feel with the tram shutting down? Also anyone know what work is actually being done?
Well apparently they cant do golf carts because of an incident that happened back at the old Davey days where a golf cart blew through a window.


When DTW and NWA were planning Midfield, they concluded the #1 thing that irritated travelers the most about the Davey Terminal was the golf carts - they were loud and, because the facilities were so narrow, required passengers literally get out of the way-often to a standstill. DTW and NWA vowed there would not be any golf cars in Midfield.

So it isn’t that they can’t have them... they just don’t want them. We’re going on 17 years since Davey closed - the reason there’s no golf carts today is likely simply a mattter of cost. No reason to spend $$$ acquiring, maintaining and hire an outside vendor to operate them with alternative options (trams, moving walkways, wheelchair assurance, etc.) are fine. Shutting the tram down temporarily isn’t likely to change that.
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BenflysDTW
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Dec 09, 2018 5:27 pm

I’m now seeing Sunday, Wednesday, and Friday flights to GRU starting Oct. 27th. Is there more demand on this route in the winter? It could become seasonal...
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Dec 09, 2018 5:40 pm

BenflysDTW wrote:
I’m now seeing Sunday, Wednesday, and Friday flights to GRU starting Oct. 27th. Is there more demand on this route in the winter? It could become seasonal...


It was previously loaded as Sunday-only, it was updated over the weekend to resume the schedule it’s been flying for a few years. Given the timing of the flight - starting up at the conclusion of the traditional “summer” flying season - it’s a reasonable assumption that a primary reason the flight was pulled is due to aircraft utilization/opportunity cost. The flight takes 41 hours to complete/rotate to NGO. When the 763 operated it, it took even longer - the plane would arrive at 6AM and sit until nearly 5PM when it went onto FRA. Eventually, DL started rotating the aircraft via ATL, JFK and MCO. Kinda interesting flying on a CR9 to JFK one day, and 763 the next...
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:07 pm

I guess it's cool to note that DTW-GCM will see an A321 between Christmas and the New Year.
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:07 pm

flymco753 wrote:
I guess it's cool to note that DTW-GCM will see an A321 between Christmas and the New Year.


The 321 are popping up (literally) everywhere. They’re now taking over most of the flights to DCA and BOS, and several to LGA. It wasn’t that long ago we discussed within this thread the demise of DL on those routes — under NW’s reign, most flights were operated by 757; DL gradually downgauged them until two-cabin regional jets operated half the movements to BOS and DCA. Of course, while DL is once again operating high capacity aircraft into these markets, they’re doing it with much less frequency.
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:13 pm

The 321 is going to be the most common mainline aircraft type by January followed by the 717 and 739 exclusively. Thankfully the 757 is maintaining a good presence.
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:31 pm

Tangentially related, but effective in January and thereafter, the FNT-ATL RON flights goes from MD-88 to 738.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:56 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Tangentially related, but effective in January and thereafter, the FNT-ATL RON flights goes from MD-88 to 738.


That’s the first DL 738, and first fleet type configured with PTVs, regularly scheduled into FNT. Previously, they’ve operated the D93/D95, 717, 319 (pre-refurbishment) and of course MD88. It appears it’ll be short lived though — the MD88 will make a cameo appearance before the route becomes all-CR9 come late spring...
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:27 pm

The stage is setting up for B6 to do DTW-JFK on the E190. Over the last few weeks I've taken the monthly ticket price average for January-March, along with equipment size, recent DL adds at BOS, and using the QSI method to analyze this routes potential to make an educated guess that JFK on B6 could be around the corner.

I guess to break it down. B6 is offering round trip fares to JFK via BOS at an average of roughly $150 cheaper than a nonstop option into JFK on Delta. DL is using all CR9's on the route which further increases DL's average ticket price at $330 RT, in correlation to B6's connecting prices at an average of nearly $200 RT.

Using QSI I've determined that 2x daily on the E190 would be good enough to create a spread for O&D and connections via partner carriers. The first flight out and last flight in geared towards O&D and a mid day turn to handle connecting passengers onto other carriers or other business destinations. Not too mention, the first flight during the winter would provide access to even more Caribbean markets.

Perhaps, if B6 finds the slots, their schedule can look a little like this:

DTW-JFK dep. 0800 arr. 1015 E90
JFK-DTW dep. 1010 arr. 1225 E90
DTW-JFK dep. 1345 arr. 1505 E90
JFK-DTW dep. 2005 arr. 2155 E90
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N292UX
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:14 pm

It appears that DL will be start DTW-BZN in March. Saturday only with the E175. Not much, but something worth noting.

IIRC, I believe NW flew a Seasonal DTW-BZN back in the with A319/A320, but I'm not sure.
 
winginit
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:26 pm

flymco753 wrote:
The stage is setting up for B6 to do DTW-JFK on the E190. Over the last few weeks I've taken the monthly ticket price average for January-March, along with equipment size, recent DL adds at BOS, and using the QSI method to analyze this routes potential to make an educated guess that JFK on B6 could be around the corner.

I guess to break it down. B6 is offering round trip fares to JFK via BOS at an average of roughly $150 cheaper than a nonstop option into JFK on Delta. DL is using all CR9's on the route which further increases DL's average ticket price at $330 RT, in correlation to B6's connecting prices at an average of nearly $200 RT.

Using QSI I've determined that 2x daily on the E190 would be good enough to create a spread for O&D and connections via partner carriers. The first flight out and last flight in geared towards O&D and a mid day turn to handle connecting passengers onto other carriers or other business destinations. Not too mention, the first flight during the winter would provide access to even more Caribbean markets.

Perhaps, if B6 finds the slots, their schedule can look a little like this:

DTW-JFK dep. 0800 arr. 1015 E90
JFK-DTW dep. 1010 arr. 1225 E90
DTW-JFK dep. 1345 arr. 1505 E90
JFK-DTW dep. 2005 arr. 2155 E90


Now that is an impressive post. Well done indeed.
 
dtwpilot225
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:38 pm

N292UX wrote:
It appears that DL will be start DTW-BZN in March. Saturday only with the E175. Not much, but something worth noting.

IIRC, I believe NW flew a Seasonal DTW-BZN back in the with A319/A320, but I'm not sure.


I like that delta is trying out all these markets that I never would see coming
 
lavalampluva
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:08 pm

Where’s what’s his name when DTW is getting all this love? :lol:
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
sumeetc2
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:08 pm

Will DTW-GDL be operated by Aeromexico connect or Aeromexico?
 
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exFWAOONW
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:18 pm

compensateme wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
I guess it's cool to note that DTW-GCM will see an A321 between Christmas and the New Year.

... most of the flights to DCA and BOS, and several to LGA. It wasn’t that long ago we discussed within this thread the demise of DL on those routes....

Wow, I can remember when RC flew wing-tip flights to those stations during some hub banks.
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
 
lavalampluva
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:48 pm

sumeetc2 wrote:
Will DTW-GDL be operated by Aeromexico connect or Aeromexico?

Aeroméxico Connect. DTW is turning into a focus city for 5D.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
NCAD95
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:50 pm

More good news for the city. They must see some kind of potential to be putting up this kind of money to transform the city.

https://www.wxyz.com/news/companies-inv ... ghborhoods
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:05 pm

Detroit hasnt fully recovered from the last recession, so its cities like San Franciaco, Los Angeles, Denver, etc. That would go down harder, so I think Detroit is on the right track to be honest.
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:41 pm

exFWAOONW wrote:
compensateme wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
I guess it's cool to note that DTW-GCM will see an A321 between Christmas and the New Year.

... most of the flights to DCA and BOS, and several to LGA. It wasn’t that long ago we discussed within this thread the demise of DL on those routes....

Wow, I can remember when RC flew wing-tip flights to those stations during some hub banks.


Honesty, it doesn’t seem so long ago that NW was operating the DC-10 into BOS — and offering a full meal service in economy. Today, cabin crews often don’t finish beverage service on 739/757/321.
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Alphazone
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:14 pm

Today at 7:16 we taxiied past this unmarked 767: https://imgur.com/a/LY3NdmO

Anyone with knowledge about this aircraft?
Spirit of the Northwest People
 
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Alphazone
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:17 pm

compensateme wrote:
Today, cabin crews often don’t finish beverage service on 739/757/321.
I've never seen this occur.
Spirit of the Northwest People
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:31 pm

Alphazone wrote:
Today at 7:16 we taxiied past this unmarked 767: https://imgur.com/a/LY3NdmO

Anyone with knowledge about this aircraft?
Kalitta doing its MSP & CVG cargo runs I think.
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Alphazone
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:44 pm

flymco753 wrote:
Alphazone wrote:
Today at 7:16 we taxiied past this unmarked 767: https://imgur.com/a/LY3NdmO

Anyone with knowledge about this aircraft?
Kalitta doing its MSP & CVG cargo runs I think.

Makes sense, I did not know they are using 767s. Thanks.
Spirit of the Northwest People
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:59 am

Alphazone wrote:
compensateme wrote:
Today, cabin crews often don’t finish beverage service on 739/757/321.
I've never seen this occur.


Then you must not fly short haul a lot.
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:42 pm

If WW indeed cut ORD for good, it's worth noting WW's DTW flight is off incentives and keeps surviving these cuts.
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:09 pm

That is interesting, I am sure WW management is getting an earful from other airports for not cutting DTW.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:17 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
That is interesting, I am sure WW management is getting an earful from other airports for not cutting DTW.
When you look at yields to places WW serves, there's a huge margin between DL and WW which allows WW to price a bit higher than these other airports.
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evank516
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:36 pm

Looks like the DTW-JFK route is losing its single mainline flight on December 22 and the route goes all RJ for a while. Don't care what the reason it that's downright pathetic for a hub-hub route.
 
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:15 pm

evank516 wrote:
Looks like the DTW-JFK route is losing its single mainline flight on December 22 and the route goes all RJ for a while. Don't care what the reason it that's downright pathetic for a hub-hub route.
Yields on DL are very high, and along with the BOS expansion, this route is calling for B6.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
2Holer4Longhaul
Posts: 374
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:03 am

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:58 pm

evank516 wrote:
Looks like the DTW-JFK route is losing its single mainline flight on December 22 and the route goes all RJ for a while. Don't care what the reason it that's downright pathetic for a hub-hub route.

There are two damn good reasons:
1) LaGuardia. The portion of the local and NYC POS markets that prefer JFK to LGA isn't very big. NYC-DTW and NYC-DTW-XXX routings are both LGA more so than JFK
2) the AF/KL JV. Any transatlantic connections routed DTW-JFK-XXX can just as easily run as DTW-CDG/AMS-XXX without pumping more people through the overcrowded JFK facility.
"You know, if you just set out to be liked, you would be prepared to compromise on anything, wouldn't you, at any time? And you would achieve nothing!" - Margaret Thatcher
 
evank516
Posts: 1944
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:15 am

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:16 pm

2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
evank516 wrote:
Looks like the DTW-JFK route is losing its single mainline flight on December 22 and the route goes all RJ for a while. Don't care what the reason it that's downright pathetic for a hub-hub route.

There are two damn good reasons:
1) LaGuardia. The portion of the local and NYC POS markets that prefer JFK to LGA isn't very big. NYC-DTW and NYC-DTW-XXX routings are both LGA more so than JFK
2) the AF/KL JV. Any transatlantic connections routed DTW-JFK-XXX can just as easily run as DTW-CDG/AMS-XXX without pumping more people through the overcrowded JFK facility.


Name another hub-hub route in Delta's network with this low of a level of service...I'll wait, and CVG doesn't count because it's downgraded to a focus city.
Also, JFK local traffic has done nothing but increase over the last decade. JFK is no longer just an international gateway or hub. It serves tons of local traffic coming from Long Island which has a loyal DL FF base, not to mention it is the most densely populated island after Manhattan.

flymco753 wrote:
evank516 wrote:
Looks like the DTW-JFK route is losing its single mainline flight on December 22 and the route goes all RJ for a while. Don't care what the reason it that's downright pathetic for a hub-hub route.
Yields on DL are very high, and along with the BOS expansion, this route is calling for B6.


And Delta will stick A320s on this route so fast your head will spin.
 
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flymco753
Posts: 3253
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:09 am

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:27 pm

evank516 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
evank516 wrote:
Looks like the DTW-JFK route is losing its single mainline flight on December 22 and the route goes all RJ for a while. Don't care what the reason it that's downright pathetic for a hub-hub route.
Yields on DL are very high, and along with the BOS expansion, this route is calling for B6.


And Delta will stick A320s on this route so fast your head will spin.
You're probably right, but I think B6 can make it work at least once a day. My analysis above gives a good example of a 2x daily scenario.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
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compensateme
Posts: 3279
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:44 pm

evank516 wrote:
2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
evank516 wrote:
Looks like the DTW-JFK route is losing its single mainline flight on December 22 and the route goes all RJ for a while. Don't care what the reason it that's downright pathetic for a hub-hub route.

There are two damn good reasons:
1) LaGuardia. The portion of the local and NYC POS markets that prefer JFK to LGA isn't very big. NYC-DTW and NYC-DTW-XXX routings are both LGA more so than JFK
2) the AF/KL JV. Any transatlantic connections routed DTW-JFK-XXX can just as easily run as DTW-CDG/AMS-XXX without pumping more people through the overcrowded JFK facility.


Name another hub-hub route in Delta's network with this low of a level of service...I'll wait, and CVG doesn't count because it's downgraded to a focus city.
Also, JFK local traffic has done nothing but increase over the last decade. JFK is no longer just an international gateway or hub. It serves tons of local traffic coming from Long Island which has a loyal DL FF base, not to mention it is the most densely populated island after Manhattan.


Hardly “pathetic” - it’s a high yield route for DL; DL’s restricting capacity to maximize fares. Walk up fares are pricing at $594+; there are plenty of options from SEA (!) for $206, ATL for $212, MSP for $276, SLC for $291 and LAX for $343.

When DL operated the 763 DTW/GRU, they briefly rotated the aircraft on a DTW/JFK flight. The flight would operate as a CR9 most of the week, but 763 a couple times. I was on a couple of those 763 flights and loads were solid... but I only paid ~$100 for my seats, and I’m sure many others got a great deal as well.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
evank516
Posts: 1944
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:15 am

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:02 pm

compensateme wrote:
evank516 wrote:
2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
There are two damn good reasons:
1) LaGuardia. The portion of the local and NYC POS markets that prefer JFK to LGA isn't very big. NYC-DTW and NYC-DTW-XXX routings are both LGA more so than JFK
2) the AF/KL JV. Any transatlantic connections routed DTW-JFK-XXX can just as easily run as DTW-CDG/AMS-XXX without pumping more people through the overcrowded JFK facility.


Name another hub-hub route in Delta's network with this low of a level of service...I'll wait, and CVG doesn't count because it's downgraded to a focus city.
Also, JFK local traffic has done nothing but increase over the last decade. JFK is no longer just an international gateway or hub. It serves tons of local traffic coming from Long Island which has a loyal DL FF base, not to mention it is the most densely populated island after Manhattan.


Hardly “pathetic” - it’s a high yield route for DL; DL’s restricting capacity to maximize fares. Walk up fares are pricing at $594+; there are plenty of options from SEA (!) for $206, ATL for $212, MSP for $276, SLC for $291 and LAX for $343.

When DL operated the 763 DTW/GRU, they briefly rotated the aircraft on a DTW/JFK flight. The flight would operate as a CR9 most of the week, but 763 a couple times. I was on a couple of those 763 flights and loads were solid... but I only paid ~$100 for my seats, and I’m sure many others got a great deal as well.


Capacity is too low with quickly increasing local demand out of JFK. You do realize that all of Nassau County is much closer to JFK than LGA, correct? I mean, 3 out of the 4 approaches to JFK are over Nassau and Suffolk Counties because it's so darn close Nassau County borders JFK immediately to the east of the airfield. In fact, JFK is the preferred airport over LGA for Long Island. DL maintains a relatively similar level of service for many of it's routes out of JFK that are also flown from LGA. I don't see why flights to a Delta hub don't justify more mainline. I can't imagine it will really damage the yield on that route.
Last edited by evank516 on Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
2Holer4Longhaul
Posts: 374
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:03 am

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:02 pm

evank516 wrote:
2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
evank516 wrote:
Looks like the DTW-JFK route is losing its single mainline flight on December 22 and the route goes all RJ for a while. Don't care what the reason it that's downright pathetic for a hub-hub route.

There are two damn good reasons:
1) LaGuardia. The portion of the local and NYC POS markets that prefer JFK to LGA isn't very big. NYC-DTW and NYC-DTW-XXX routings are both LGA more so than JFK
2) the AF/KL JV. Any transatlantic connections routed DTW-JFK-XXX can just as easily run as DTW-CDG/AMS-XXX without pumping more people through the overcrowded JFK facility.


Name another hub-hub route in Delta's network with this low of a level of service...I'll wait, and CVG doesn't count because it's downgraded to a focus city.
Also, JFK local traffic has done nothing but increase over the last decade. JFK is no longer just an international gateway or hub. It serves tons of local traffic coming from Long Island which has a loyal DL FF base, not to mention it is the most densely populated island after Manhattan.

flymco753 wrote:
evank516 wrote:
Looks like the DTW-JFK route is losing its single mainline flight on December 22 and the route goes all RJ for a while. Don't care what the reason it that's downright pathetic for a hub-hub route.
Yields on DL are very high, and along with the BOS expansion, this route is calling for B6.


And Delta will stick A320s on this route so fast your head will spin.

I didn't deny that the service level is low; I explained why it's low. Long Island has a large population that prefers JFK to LGA, that's true, and this population is the reason why the route has the service it still does.

But, then again, you said you don't care what the reason is. You just want to complain, I guess, and that's fine. Whine away, friendo.
"You know, if you just set out to be liked, you would be prepared to compromise on anything, wouldn't you, at any time? And you would achieve nothing!" - Margaret Thatcher
 
lavalampluva
Posts: 1363
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:33 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:26 pm

Part of it may be DTW has flights to quite a few European cities. They don’t need to connect at JFK.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.

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