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flymco753
Posts: 2740
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:42 pm

hjulicher wrote:
BenflysDTW wrote:
MUC starts on May 3rd this year, and is daily until sometime in October. Last returning flight is on November 12th. Does anyone know when the route ended last year? Seems like a big extension to me! I however will say that I don’t think it will ever be year round. March-November at Best. Only way for it to be year-round of course is for LH to settle in.


Seems odd to me as one would assume that the flight schedule would be harmonized with the IATA summer and winter timetables. MUC is slot restricted, so operating a flight into the winter timetable for all of 3 weeks seems very strange. And slots need to be used at least 80% in order for them to be kept for the next season. Thus given that the Summer Timetable begins on 25 March, starting service on May 3rd would mean 6 weeks of not using the slot, given that the slot is granted for the entire summer timetable.

I'm not too sure how slots are given out and what factors are measured in determined their efficient use. Perhaps the extenuation of service due to slot security is a reason why the flight is starting earlier this year, and a reason why it was operated later in the the fall in 2017 than initially planned.
Nkw the next question is, would DL and LH be able to coincide with each other like they do on FRA without trying to drive each other out. Assuming LH goes in year round with MUC on the A350, what’s DL’s response? Coincide? Or try to drive one another out?
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:49 pm

Also, this weeks OAG is out, no SJC for DTW, which is a bummer because I truly think this route would work in the favor of the growth towards automotive tech. Google has a pretty significant presence in SE Michigan, and Apple is putting their stamp on Detroit. With the route being roughly 200 or so PDEW a day, there should be no reason as to why DL is leaving it unserved. Now it’s time to wait until 2019 to see if it happens.
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jplatts
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:21 pm

flymco753 wrote:
Also, this weeks OAG is out, no SJC for DTW, which is a bummer because I truly think this route would work in the favor of the growth towards automotive tech. Google has a pretty significant presence in SE Michigan, and Apple is putting their stamp on Detroit. With the route being roughly 200 or so PDEW a day, there should be no reason as to why DL is leaving it unserved. Now it’s time to wait until 2019 to see if it happens.


WN will have a focus city at SJC starting on April 8th, and WN is much bigger than DL is at SJC. WN has recently been expanding at SJC and OAK in order to better compete against AS, who has been recently expanding in the San Francisco Bay Area with the AS-VX merger, with further expansion of its SFO hub acquired through the AS-VX merger, with the recent AS expansion at SJC.

WN could add DTW-OAK and DTW-SJC nonstop service since many Silicon Valley-area customers prefer to fly on airlines other than DL, since the San Francisco Bay Area will be home to 2 WN focus city airports starting on April 8th, since WN wants to defend market share in the San Francisco Bay Area, and since there are many customers in the San Francisco Bay Area (including Silicon Valley) who prefer to fly on WN.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:47 pm

jplatts wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Also, this weeks OAG is out, no SJC for DTW, which is a bummer because I truly think this route would work in the favor of the growth towards automotive tech. Google has a pretty significant presence in SE Michigan, and Apple is putting their stamp on Detroit. With the route being roughly 200 or so PDEW a day, there should be no reason as to why DL is leaving it unserved. Now it’s time to wait until 2019 to see if it happens.


WN will have a focus city at SJC starting on April 8th, and WN is much bigger than DL is at SJC. WN has recently been expanding at SJC and OAK in order to better compete against AS, who has been recently expanding in the San Francisco Bay Area with the AS-VX merger, with further expansion of its SFO hub acquired through the AS-VX merger, with the recent AS expansion at SJC.

WN could add DTW-OAK and DTW-SJC nonstop service since many Silicon Valley-area customers prefer to fly on airlines other than DL, since the San Francisco Bay Area will be home to 2 WN focus city airports starting on April 8th, since WN wants to defend market share in the San Francisco Bay Area, and since there are many customers in the San Francisco Bay Area (including Silicon Valley) who prefer to fly on WN.
WN hasn't gotten into daily Florida service yet, they also haven't added punctual stations like MSY, HOU, or SAN either, so unfortunately I think WN will pass on any DTW-Bay Area flights.

I like the idea of Alaska doing it, but they would fall into another middle carrier situation like they are on PDX, only they'd be the 4th carrier to get into the Bay Area whereas the Delta product is well known on both ends. I really want to know why DL thought it was acceptable to add JFK-SJC first and overfly DTW. Whether anyone wants to believe it or not, this is essential domestic service that needs to be added for auto tech.
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SumChristianus
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:33 pm

Here are the 200 largest domestic indirect markets from DTW. These are the number of passengers flying DTW-Hub-XXX on an domestic itinerary in Q3 2017
Destination Indirect PDEW Fare
LAX 181 $255.64
SFO 141 $279.82
SAN 136 $253.58
PDX 123 $262.52
SNA 106 $281.22
SJC 99 $280.34
ATL 93 $259.97
SMF 90 $287.29
TPA 89 $181.47
AUS 87 $203.03
LAS 86 $211.69
MCO 78 $172.02
SEA 73 $261.74
SAT 67 $224.20
HOU 65 $216.88
ANC 64 $371.84
PHX 63 $201.83
SLC 62 $267.23
JAX 62 $244.58
DEN 60 $216.49
OAK 59 $255.59
RNO 58 $285.07
HNL 54 $529.13
RDU 54 $225.27
RSW 51 $207.40
ELP 50 $321.50
ONT 50 $275.38
ABQ 48 $252.71
MCI 46 $226.88
BOS 43 $174.21
IAH 42 $250.48
MSP 42 $255.24
DFW 42 $214.74
SJU 41 $268.47
LGA 38 $204.79
DAL 37 $173.40
CHS 36 $228.03
FLL 35 $166.24
SAV 35 $229.43
TUS 35 $259.00
MSY 35 $202.50
GEG 34 $280.66
OGG 32 $574.25
BZN 32 $255.24
BOI 30 $282.18
BNA 28 $184.11
PNS 28 $253.16
MEM 26 $259.38
PBI 25 $230.22
LIT 24 $279.67
TUL 23 $288.97
GSP 23 $272.27
MIA 22 $180.95
OKC 22 $250.67
DAB 22 $188.45
ICT 21 $243.92
AGS 21 $189.92
BDL 20 $223.03
FAI 20 $368.41
ORF 20 $240.33
CLT 20 $259.33
BHM 20 $297.38
PVD 19 $176.55
BUR 18 $272.70
OMA 18 $227.18
JAN 17 $350.62
STL 17 $219.21
ECP 17 $242.10
FAY 16 $172.72
FCA 16 $321.54
PWM 16 $217.36
FAT 16 $349.81
EWR 15 $199.97
COS 15 $240.37
SRQ 15 $289.09
JAC 15 $355.57
ILM 14 $229.95
KOA 14 $527.19
JFK 14 $205.14
DCA 14 $181.53
VPS 14 $223.10
CAE 13 $301.92
LIH 13 $487.52
XNA 13 $288.28
MFE 13 $385.33
AVL 12 $302.17
PHL 12 $204.66
MHT 12 $210.42
EYW 12 $263.25
ORD 12 $138.37
STT 12 $324.01
HSV 12 $369.58
BGR 12 $271.93
OAJ 11 $222.87
MSO 11 $354.81
PSP 11 $327.35
GNV 11 $190.22
FSD 11 $394.39
CHO 11 $162.08
SGF 11 $332.00
EUG 11 $310.91
RAP 10 $279.17
ALB 10 $216.06
BWI 10 $185.64
MYR 10 $205.64
BIL 10 $330.34
BRO 10 $346.62
RIC 9 $222.77
TLH 9 $299.41
MLB 9 $208.73
BTR 9 $299.69
RDM 9 $295.11
SBA 9 $306.58
ROA 9 $283.01
ASE 8 $352.09
FAR 8 $336.78
MOB 8 $337.90
PSC 8 $341.37
DLH 8 $330.45
DSM 7 $251.57
MFR 7 $292.24
MGM 7 $327.14
SHV 7 $376.45
RST 7 $200.38
GPT 7 $258.47
MAF 6 $274.33
LBB 6 $268.44
SDF 6 $192.96
JNU 6 $334.59
ISP 6 $221.13
CRP 6 $273.17
GJT 6 $320.67
HRL 6 $249.04
DRO 5 $304.76
LGB 5 $306.91
GTF 5 $280.44
BIS 5 $318.40
TRI 5 $330.26
CHA 5 $314.24
AMA 5 $317.72
IND 5 $218.21
MKE 5 $452.70
EWN 5 $217.00
GSO 4 $331.23
TYS 4 $343.01
SBP 4 $345.68
LRD 4 $478.58
IDA 4 $360.79
FSM 4 $346.97
BTV 4 $256.98
LYH 4 $203.12
LFT 4 $318.90
MOT 3 $348.93
HLN 3 $256.06
MRY 3 $261.19
SGU 3 $362.33
MLU 3 $334.39
GRK 3 $301.04
ACK 3 $242.63
BQN 3 $179.94
STX 3 $325.78
LSE 3 $364.25
IAD 3 $227.57
CMI 3 $256.09
MSN 3 $272.11
AEX 3 $430.81
PHF 2 $292.83
MTJ 2 $365.27
SBY 2 $236.35
CRW 2 $243.25
VLD 2 $242.30
BFL 2 $326.26
HPN 2 $230.15
CPR 2 $262.14
MVY 2 $231.11
ROC 2 $266.99
COD 2 $385.03
SAF 2 $301.68
GFK 2 $316.41
LNK 2 $326.65
CSG 2 $301.75
PGV 2 $246.18
ABY 2 $269.84
CMX 2 $248.01
YUM 2 $232.20
HHH 2 $320.49
SYR 2 $290.10
BLI 2 $390.06
TXK 2 $272.39
KTN 1 $341.23
CLL 1 $255.47
ABI 1 $214.02
MDT 1 $248.36
STS 1 $257.37
ACT 1 $317.24
ATW 1 $327.16
LWS 1 $273.09
TWF 1 $427.92
MHK 1 $301.65
PIH 1 $454.47

In total 4,414 PDEW travelled indirectly from DTW in Q3 2017.

Although some passengers will always connect when there are numerous intermediary options, the following west coast destinations seem ripe for new service.
LAX 181 $255.64
SFO 141 $279.82
SAN 136 $253.58
PDX 123 $262.52
SNA 106 $281.22
SJC 99 $280.34


Maybe AA on LAX?

ATL sees indirect flows of 93 PDEW, quite high for a hub-to-hub short haul route, but may be a result of high local fares leaking passengers to CLT/ORD/BWI connections.
ATL 93 $259.97


AUS at 87 PDEW shows why DL has elected to upgauge equipment on DTW-AUS for the summer.
AUS 87 $203.03


No wonder NK has entered DTW-PDX with 123 PDEW indirect.
PDX 123 $262.52

I still think ANC seems possible
ANC 64 $371.84

Maybe XNA, BGR (the largest connecting market onwards from DTW-LGA flights), or another daily flight to MEM would work as well.
A Traddie wannaby---UA DL LH NW AA --- Next DEN-IND (to be decided) Any suggestions?
"Born in Wonder, Brought to Wisdom"
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:36 pm

SumChristianus wrote:
Here are the 200 largest domestic indirect markets from DTW. These are the number of passengers flying DTW-Hub-XXX on an domestic itinerary in Q3 2017
Destination Indirect PDEW Fare
LAX 181 $255.64
SFO 141 $279.82
SAN 136 $253.58
PDX 123 $262.52
SNA 106 $281.22
SJC 99 $280.34
ATL 93 $259.97
SMF 90 $287.29
TPA 89 $181.47
AUS 87 $203.03
LAS 86 $211.69
MCO 78 $172.02
SEA 73 $261.74
SAT 67 $224.20
HOU 65 $216.88
ANC 64 $371.84
PHX 63 $201.83
SLC 62 $267.23
JAX 62 $244.58
DEN 60 $216.49
OAK 59 $255.59
RNO 58 $285.07
HNL 54 $529.13
RDU 54 $225.27
RSW 51 $207.40
ELP 50 $321.50
ONT 50 $275.38
ABQ 48 $252.71
MCI 46 $226.88
BOS 43 $174.21
IAH 42 $250.48
MSP 42 $255.24
DFW 42 $214.74
SJU 41 $268.47
LGA 38 $204.79
DAL 37 $173.40
CHS 36 $228.03
FLL 35 $166.24
SAV 35 $229.43
TUS 35 $259.00
MSY 35 $202.50
GEG 34 $280.66
OGG 32 $574.25
BZN 32 $255.24
BOI 30 $282.18
BNA 28 $184.11
PNS 28 $253.16
MEM 26 $259.38
PBI 25 $230.22
LIT 24 $279.67
TUL 23 $288.97
GSP 23 $272.27
MIA 22 $180.95
OKC 22 $250.67
DAB 22 $188.45
ICT 21 $243.92
AGS 21 $189.92
BDL 20 $223.03
FAI 20 $368.41
ORF 20 $240.33
CLT 20 $259.33
BHM 20 $297.38
PVD 19 $176.55
BUR 18 $272.70
OMA 18 $227.18
JAN 17 $350.62
STL 17 $219.21
ECP 17 $242.10
FAY 16 $172.72
FCA 16 $321.54
PWM 16 $217.36
FAT 16 $349.81
EWR 15 $199.97
COS 15 $240.37
SRQ 15 $289.09
JAC 15 $355.57
ILM 14 $229.95
KOA 14 $527.19
JFK 14 $205.14
DCA 14 $181.53
VPS 14 $223.10
CAE 13 $301.92
LIH 13 $487.52
XNA 13 $288.28
MFE 13 $385.33
AVL 12 $302.17
PHL 12 $204.66
MHT 12 $210.42
EYW 12 $263.25
ORD 12 $138.37
STT 12 $324.01
HSV 12 $369.58
BGR 12 $271.93
OAJ 11 $222.87
MSO 11 $354.81
PSP 11 $327.35
GNV 11 $190.22
FSD 11 $394.39
CHO 11 $162.08
SGF 11 $332.00
EUG 11 $310.91
RAP 10 $279.17
ALB 10 $216.06
BWI 10 $185.64
MYR 10 $205.64
BIL 10 $330.34
BRO 10 $346.62
RIC 9 $222.77
TLH 9 $299.41
MLB 9 $208.73
BTR 9 $299.69
RDM 9 $295.11
SBA 9 $306.58
ROA 9 $283.01
ASE 8 $352.09
FAR 8 $336.78
MOB 8 $337.90
PSC 8 $341.37
DLH 8 $330.45
DSM 7 $251.57
MFR 7 $292.24
MGM 7 $327.14
SHV 7 $376.45
RST 7 $200.38
GPT 7 $258.47
MAF 6 $274.33
LBB 6 $268.44
SDF 6 $192.96
JNU 6 $334.59
ISP 6 $221.13
CRP 6 $273.17
GJT 6 $320.67
HRL 6 $249.04
DRO 5 $304.76
LGB 5 $306.91
GTF 5 $280.44
BIS 5 $318.40
TRI 5 $330.26
CHA 5 $314.24
AMA 5 $317.72
IND 5 $218.21
MKE 5 $452.70
EWN 5 $217.00
GSO 4 $331.23
TYS 4 $343.01
SBP 4 $345.68
LRD 4 $478.58
IDA 4 $360.79
FSM 4 $346.97
BTV 4 $256.98
LYH 4 $203.12
LFT 4 $318.90
MOT 3 $348.93
HLN 3 $256.06
MRY 3 $261.19
SGU 3 $362.33
MLU 3 $334.39
GRK 3 $301.04
ACK 3 $242.63
BQN 3 $179.94
STX 3 $325.78
LSE 3 $364.25
IAD 3 $227.57
CMI 3 $256.09
MSN 3 $272.11
AEX 3 $430.81
PHF 2 $292.83
MTJ 2 $365.27
SBY 2 $236.35
CRW 2 $243.25
VLD 2 $242.30
BFL 2 $326.26
HPN 2 $230.15
CPR 2 $262.14
MVY 2 $231.11
ROC 2 $266.99
COD 2 $385.03
SAF 2 $301.68
GFK 2 $316.41
LNK 2 $326.65
CSG 2 $301.75
PGV 2 $246.18
ABY 2 $269.84
CMX 2 $248.01
YUM 2 $232.20
HHH 2 $320.49
SYR 2 $290.10
BLI 2 $390.06
TXK 2 $272.39
KTN 1 $341.23
CLL 1 $255.47
ABI 1 $214.02
MDT 1 $248.36
STS 1 $257.37
ACT 1 $317.24
ATW 1 $327.16
LWS 1 $273.09
TWF 1 $427.92
MHK 1 $301.65
PIH 1 $454.47

In total 4,414 PDEW travelled indirectly from DTW in Q3 2017.

Although some passengers will always connect when there are numerous intermediary options, the following west coast destinations seem ripe for new service.
LAX 181 $255.64
SFO 141 $279.82
SAN 136 $253.58
PDX 123 $262.52
SNA 106 $281.22
SJC 99 $280.34


Maybe AA on LAX?

ATL sees indirect flows of 93 PDEW, quite high for a hub-to-hub short haul route, but may be a result of high local fares leaking passengers to CLT/ORD/BWI connections.
ATL 93 $259.97


AUS at 87 PDEW shows why DL has elected to upgauge equipment on DTW-AUS for the summer.
AUS 87 $203.03


No wonder NK has entered DTW-PDX with 123 PDEW indirect.
PDX 123 $262.52

I still think ANC seems possible
ANC 64 $371.84

Maybe XNA, BGR (the largest connecting market onwards from DTW-LGA flights), or another daily flight to MEM would work as well.


It's baffling how little competition DL has to the west coast, where in the world is AA to LAX? UA only operating A319 to SFO and that route has barley been around for a year. I'm also aware NK has flights to LAX and (maybe SFO? probably not), AS is operating to SEA and I believe PDX in the future.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:14 am

Yeah I don’t think you’ll see ANC in 2018, they would’ve added it by now if they wanted to do it. I actually ANC won’t ever be connected with DTW unless it’s on another airline other than DL.
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jplatts
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Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:29 am

flymco753 wrote:
WN hasn't gotten into daily Florida service yet, they also haven't added punctual stations like MSY, HOU, or SAN either, so unfortunately I think WN will pass on any DTW-Bay Area flights.

I like the idea of Alaska doing it, but they would fall into another middle carrier situation like they are on PDX, only they'd be the 4th carrier to get into the Bay Area whereas the Delta product is well known on both ends. I really want to know why DL thought it was acceptable to add JFK-SJC first and overfly DTW. Whether anyone wants to believe it or not, this is essential domestic service that needs to be added for auto tech.


DL's JFK-SJC nonstop service competes against B6 nonstop service to JFK from SJC, SFO, and OAK, UA nonstop service to EWR from SJC and SFO, AS nonstop service to EWR from SJC, VX nonstop service to JFK and EWR from SFO, and AA nonstop service to JFK from SFO. On the other hand, DL would face significantly less competition on SJC-DTW than it would on SJC-JFK since UA and NK are the only competitors to serve DTW nonstop from the San Francisco Bay Area. DL would also likely be the only airline to serve DTW nonstop from SJC if it added SJC-DTW nonstop service.

DL also has nonstop service from JFK to international destinations in Europe, Africa, and the Caribbean that are not served nonstop from DTW.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:55 pm

jplatts wrote:
DL also has nonstop service from JFK to international destinations in Europe, Africa, and the Caribbean that are not served nonstop from DTW.
That's the thing though, the JFK route is competing with B6 whereas a DTW route wouldn't have any competition and a complete monopoly. While JFK does offer connections to Europe, Detroit is a separate market compared to NYC and would probably not have to worry about transferring as many international passengers through DTW because of O&D. Google, Apple, GM, and Ford are going to pay front cabin fares so filling first class isn't an issue. My final verdict is, I strongly disagree with Delta's decision to add JFK-SJC over DTW-SJC. I feel like a similar timed flight like SNA would have worked out fine. I don't think AS is extremely happy with PDX, so that will deter them from adding anything else before PDX improves, and the next likely add would be either LAX, SAN or SFO as opposed to SJC. Southwest hasn't expanded DTW since Dallas-Love, and Frontier doesn't seem happy at DTW with longer haul if PHX didn't even work. It lies on Delta's hands to add it.

Which is why I'm not optimistic about other adds, I thought that Delta would come around and see that it's a legitimate market but it was blatantly ignored. Ever since they cut SRQ I had a feeling DTW wasn't going to see anything new this year.
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:55 pm

I know seat maps aren't an indication of how well a flight is doing but the last few days I've been checking the seat maps to KEF on WOW and they're beginning to look solid. Hopefully the flight does well, this is something Detroit has needed for a while.
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:37 am

Triple posts, Frontier is expanding tomorrow. Will DTW be included? I can only think of 2 things that are needed or at least ones that make sense; TPA and AUS.
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:38 pm

F9 announced DTW-AUS service.

Appears to be 3x weekly, operating Mon, Wed, Sat.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:11 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
F9 announced DTW-AUS service.

Appears to be 3x weekly, operating Mon, Wed, Sat.
A ULCC is exactly what this route needed, now lets see if it's successful. I think this coming winter there will be a TPA add at the least. I thought PVD-DTW was going to happen for a minute.
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ADrum23
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:02 am

Can someone explain why there is no DTW-HNL on DL?
 
BenflysDTW
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:05 am

I agree. I also think that it is highly probable that F9 will add more service sooner than later. They only have one gate though right now don’t they? I think F9 should make AUS and DEN year round. Possibly even MIA. I found out that the additional 763 flight to CDG is seasonal and last returning flight comes on October 2nd. So the extra flight runs from 16 May to 1 October.
The first full year of service:
UA - SFO Daily A319, could upgrade to 739 in the Summer like it did in 2017.
AM- MEX 737 aren’t they reducing this to x6 times per week?
DL - IMT + SNA SNA will be daily during the summer with a 752, I don’t know much more than that.
AS- PDX service runs nearly a full year.
These are the notable first full year of service routes.
PVD sees 4 mainline flights during summer Instead of 3
Other adds include an extra Summer CDG flight previously mentioned, more MUC and FCO flights, extra capacity on LH FRA, a possible earlier start of the AMM nonstop mentioned on OAG a couple weeks ago.
I will not a new service summary on here; I think most of us know everything already.
I’m sure I missed something feel free to add.
There have also been Varoius cuts for various reasons.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:08 am

I think F9 will add TPA, that’s it. AUS should be year round if it’s successful, and I never understood why DEN is seasonal. MIA isn’t performing well, it’ll be seasonal. PVD for next summer.

I’m optimistic about UA at DTW, I can see a daily mainline on EWR and 2 or so on IAH while upgrading to the 739 on SFO.

AM is only 6x for a few weeks I believe, other then that the flight is performing well to MEX, there’s a lot of cases where the 737-700 is an -800 more often than not. Hopefully MTY does well so that BJX or QRO jumps on board next.

It’s a big deal that SNA is going to a 757, more seats everywhere indicates it’s doing well. I still don’t think Delta is adding SJC until maybe next year, and I don’t think ANC will be resumed ever.

AS must not be happy with PDX, especially now since they’ll be a middle carrier, though they have established themselves in between Spirit and Delta, so hopefully people do their homework when booking flights. The next logical and likely adds are only SAN, LAX, SJC or SFO.

Well, WOW is starting flights year round, that’s a big deal. WN got into a seasonal TPA starting in a month or so, and F9 is adding ISP, which will either be good or bust, right now with ticket prices still being so low, I think it’s a bust.
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klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:37 pm

FromGSPtoChi wrote:
klm617 wrote:
william wrote:
Remember when SWA started service at a secondary Detroit airport? I forgot the name, Does it still have commercial service? Can imagine an airline like Allegiant setting up shop there.


It was called Detroit City Airport and later renamed the Colman A Young international airport and yes I agree DET would be a great place for Allegiant to set up service. At this point there is no service there.


For $83M DET can have commercial service again. It's one of the options in a study but not likely. It does have support from one councilman.

Study: $83M brings back City Airport passenger service
http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/l ... 110062586/


Kudos to Mr. Benson he gets it with his “Once you lose the airport, it’s gone forever,” he said. “I believe efforts and energy should be spent looking at how to best make this a world-class airport.”. This airport is 5 miles from downtown and a great asset how many cities can boost that you can be at the airport from your office in 15 minutes. Also everybody on here takes about public transportation access to the airport DET is will positioned to provide that because of it's convenient location. While at the moment no one is flying there but what about 5 years from now look how far the city has come under the leadership of Mike Duggan they don't need this land for an industrial park there is plenty of other land that can be reclaimed by the city for warehouses to be built. In a time where aviation is growing and people want to see DET go away how short sighted is that. Why not lease the airport out to cover what it costs to operate the airport to a private investment company with the terms it has to remain as an airport. This airport is just a diamond the rough and I'm sure there are many people who would love to see it go away but it should be brought up to speed and invite airlines to bid on initiating service at the airport. So many hands are ties because of the power Delta has in this market it's unreal. The neighborhood should not define the airport the airport should define the neighborhood around it. You guys fail to see the pattern here first YIP now almost void of cargo operators, FNT brought down to almost nothing competitive and now they want to demolish KDET, Les competition is not better it's worse and the more that service gets eliminated the less customer choice everyone has.
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:09 pm

klm617 wrote:
FromGSPtoChi wrote:
klm617 wrote:

It was called Detroit City Airport and later renamed the Colman A Young international airport and yes I agree DET would be a great place for Allegiant to set up service. At this point there is no service there.


For $83M DET can have commercial service again. It's one of the options in a study but not likely. It does have support from one councilman.

Study: $83M brings back City Airport passenger service
http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/l ... 110062586/


Kudos to Mr. Benson he gets it with his “Once you lose the airport, it’s gone forever,” he said. “I believe efforts and energy should be spent looking at how to best make this a world-class airport.”. This airport is 5 miles from downtown and a great asset how many cities can boost that you can be at the airport from your office in 15 minutes. Also everybody on here takes about public transportation access to the airport DET is will positioned to provide that because of it's convenient location. While at the moment no one is flying there but what about 5 years from now look how far the city has come under the leadership of Mike Duggan they don't need this land for an industrial park there is plenty of other land that can be reclaimed by the city for warehouses to be built. In a time where aviation is growing and people want to see DET go away how short sighted is that. Why not lease the airport out to cover what it costs to operate the airport to a private investment company with the terms it has to remain as an airport. This airport is just a diamond the rough and I'm sure there are many people who would love to see it go away but it should be brought up to speed and invite airlines to bid on initiating service at the airport. So many hands are ties because of the power Delta has in this market it's unreal. The neighborhood should not define the airport the airport should define the neighborhood around it. You guys fail to see the pattern here first YIP now almost void of cargo operators, FNT brought down to almost nothing competitive and now they want to demolish KDET, Les competition is not better it's worse and the more that service gets eliminated the less customer choice everyone has.
Delta and Spirit both have a relatively large influence on the Detroit market, nearly every aspect of domestic flying is fulfilled by 2 carriers that are a legacy and ULCC. Some airports have the success at having an LCC and 2 ULCCs that fulfill their markets, but Detroit is pretty lucky to have this range of options, the only problem is, LCC’s have no niche, which is probably why AS, WN and B6 have a tough time being a “middle man”, theyre always sandwiched between NK and DL.
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:31 pm

flymco753 wrote:
It’s a big deal that SNA is going to a 757, more seats everywhere indicates it’s doing well.


Not really. The upgauging likely has more to do with providing operational flexibility, as the 73G is an orphan at both DTW & SNA.

SNA is likely targeted at SNA POS (southern Orange County specifically), particularity as both roadway and airport (LAX/SAN) congestion increases in the region. DL's probably trying to push the DTW connecting experience as an alternative to traveling to LAX/SAN. OC has a heavy business core, but there's little tourist traffic to it from the east (generally, people visit the OC as part of a broader trip to the LA region; most "OC-only" lesiure traffic comes from the west).
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:31 pm

compensateme wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
It’s a big deal that SNA is going to a 757, more seats everywhere indicates it’s doing well.


Not really. The upgauging likely has more to do with providing operational flexibility, as the 73G is an orphan at both DTW & SNA.

SNA is likely targeted at SNA POS (southern Orange County specifically), particularity as both roadway and airport (LAX/SAN) congestion increases in the region. DL's probably trying to push the DTW connecting experience as an alternative to traveling to LAX/SAN. OC has a heavy business core, but there's little tourist traffic to it from the east (generally, people visit the OC as part of a broader trip to the LA region; most "OC-only" lesiure traffic comes from the west).
I guess so, if I had to guess the 73W will be back by next winter since it could be doing seasonal rotations. Wouldn't you think that people would use SNA for Disneyland travel? I'm not familiar with SoCal.
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:08 pm

flymco753 wrote:
compensateme wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
It’s a big deal that SNA is going to a 757, more seats everywhere indicates it’s doing well.


Not really. The upgauging likely has more to do with providing operational flexibility, as the 73G is an orphan at both DTW & SNA.

SNA is likely targeted at SNA POS (southern Orange County specifically), particularity as both roadway and airport (LAX/SAN) congestion increases in the region. DL's probably trying to push the DTW connecting experience as an alternative to traveling to LAX/SAN. OC has a heavy business core, but there's little tourist traffic to it from the east (generally, people visit the OC as part of a broader trip to the LA region; most "OC-only" lesiure traffic comes from the west).
I guess so, if I had to guess the 73W will be back by next winter since it could be doing seasonal rotations. Wouldn't you think that people would use SNA for Disneyland travel? I'm not familiar with SoCal.


There was what looked like a ATL-CLT-DTW-SNA rotation to get the 73W to SNA. Would the A319 really have not worked on that route? They should have started with that for better flexibility but a 757 is good news for the future viability of the route.
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:33 pm

flymco753 wrote:
I guess so, if I had to guess the 73W will be back by next winter since it could be doing seasonal rotations. Wouldn't you think that people would use SNA for Disneyland travel? I'm not familiar with SoCal.


Could be although I wouldn't be surprised to see DL stick with the 757 on the route, since it provides greater operational flexibility.

And if you're outside the west, you're not likely to consider a Disneyland vacation. You might consider going to Disneyland as part of a broader visit to SoCal -- which will likely use LAX as he gateway -- but certainly not standalone.
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:26 pm

SumChristianus wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
compensateme wrote:

Not really. The upgauging likely has more to do with providing operational flexibility, as the 73G is an orphan at both DTW & SNA.

SNA is likely targeted at SNA POS (southern Orange County specifically), particularity as both roadway and airport (LAX/SAN) congestion increases in the region. DL's probably trying to push the DTW connecting experience as an alternative to traveling to LAX/SAN. OC has a heavy business core, but there's little tourist traffic to it from the east (generally, people visit the OC as part of a broader trip to the LA region; most "OC-only" lesiure traffic comes from the west).
I guess so, if I had to guess the 73W will be back by next winter since it could be doing seasonal rotations. Wouldn't you think that people would use SNA for Disneyland travel? I'm not familiar with SoCal.


There was what looked like a ATL-CLT-DTW-SNA rotation to get the 73W to SNA. Would the A319 really have not worked on that route? They should have started with that for better flexibility but a 757 is good news for the future viability of the route.


It's currently routed through PHL (ATL-PHL-DTW-SNA-DTW-PHL-ATL)
 
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:08 am

michman wrote:
SumChristianus wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
I guess so, if I had to guess the 73W will be back by next winter since it could be doing seasonal rotations. Wouldn't you think that people would use SNA for Disneyland travel? I'm not familiar with SoCal.


There was what looked like a ATL-CLT-DTW-SNA rotation to get the 73W to SNA. Would the A319 really have not worked on that route? They should have started with that for better flexibility but a 757 is good news for the future viability of the route.


It's currently routed through PHL (ATL-PHL-DTW-SNA-DTW-PHL-ATL)
It was routed through CLT since the route started though, PHL took over about a tad over a month ago.
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:24 pm

So two airlines are targeting Detroit now Norwegian and Aer Lingus let's see how committed the airport authority is to landing these airlines to compete against Delta and increasing revenue for the airport. I think with the service and pricing these two offer it could bring a lot of budget minded travelers back to using DTW.

https://www.ttgmedia.com/news/news/phil ... 20Bulletin
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:37 pm

klm617 wrote:
So two airlines are targeting Detroit now Norwegian and Aer Lingus let's see how committed the airport authority is to landing these airlines to compete against Delta and increasing revenue for the airport. I think with the service and pricing these two offer it could bring a lot of budget minded travelers back to using DTW.

https://www.ttgmedia.com/news/news/phil ... 20Bulletin

If budget travelers won't come for WOW Air, they ain't interested in Transatlantic. I'd bet that EI and DY are watching WW to see how they perform this year. If WOW does very well, you betcha the others will come. If, however, WOW underwhelms, EI, DY, FI, and friends will keep their distance.
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:24 pm

Strange day for WN today at DTW. All the flights appear to be one-off flights instead of the normal scheduled ones. What's that about?
 
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:49 am

klm617 wrote:
So two airlines are targeting Detroit now Norwegian and Aer Lingus let's see how committed the airport authority is to landing these airlines to compete against Delta and increasing revenue for the airport. I think with the service and pricing these two offer it could bring a lot of budget minded travelers back to using DTW.

https://www.ttgmedia.com/news/news/phil ... 20Bulletin
LGW too, shocked me!
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Jshank83
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:55 am

michman wrote:
Strange day for WN today at DTW. All the flights appear to be one-off flights instead of the normal scheduled ones. What's that about?


It is like that all over the schedule. STL has some, CMH does also. Not sure why they did it today. I don't think Vday should have much of an impact.
 
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:43 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
michman wrote:
Strange day for WN today at DTW. All the flights appear to be one-off flights instead of the normal scheduled ones. What's that about?


It is like that all over the schedule. STL has some, CMH does also. Not sure why they did it today. I don't think Vday should have much of an impact.


Probably somehow related to WN schedule extension today. Still seemed very odd.
 
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:56 pm

AM adds DTW-BJX
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BenflysDTW
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:55 pm

As a side note DL is operating a flight today from QRO. Anyone know why?
 
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:50 am

flymco753 wrote:
AM adds DTW-BJX

Per the OAG thread, as mentioned, looks like AM is going to fly DTW-BJX 3x weekly on Mon, Wed, Fri with an E-190 starting this summer.

Overall, this in theory, should work with the automotive/manufacturing industry ties on both ends of this route. Significant OEM and supplier industries ties on both ends, particularly with one of the major OEMs having a major new vehicle launch in the upcoming year which will mean greater than normal travel from both OEM and supplier on both ends.

The flight times are the following:

AM 2727 DTW BJX 2:56pm 6:00pm
AM 2726 BJX DTW 8:00am 1:26pm

The times are a bit better for BJX originating traffic, as its well time for weekly commuter type traffic but it could work either way.

That said, hopefully this falls under the DL codeshare and also gets displayed and sold through Delta to increase brand recognition and marketing power on the route.

I am a little bit skeptical as AM has a history of:
a) announcing routes, then pulling them before they start (this isn't just a DTW thing, but they've done this elsewhere, but more typical to request a route authority but never load for sale)
b) quickly pulling out of a market shortly after start (e.g., their short-lived DTW-MTY alongside DL's long standing service)

That said, this should probably stick around for 2018, but will be interesting to see it it sticks into 2019.

Overall good to see increases DTW-Mexico service, that helps improve business ties/business travel between the regions.
 
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:11 pm

Delta has added A321’s to both BOS and DCA this summer. Right now they have FLL and TPA at 4x 757 each, presumably these are placeholders for what I think will be all A321.
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:58 pm

flymco753 wrote:
Delta has added A321’s to both BOS and DCA this summer. Right now they have FLL and TPA at 4x 757 each, presumably these are placeholders for what I think will be all A321.


They're not placeholders. DL's domestic 757 fleet will grow to 82 with the presumed phaseout of NRT-based 757 flying. That's quite large -- only the 739 and MD-88 subtypes are larger, and it's roughly 2.5x the size of the 321 fleet.

Enjoy the 757 renaissance -- they've been gently scheduled from DTW in recent years, and will likely be phased out by (mostly) 321 in the next decade or so.
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:24 am

I think it would be an amazing idea if NK used Detroit to start low cost flights to Europe. They already have a loyal following in Detroit that would trust them and there are many cities that could be reached from Detroit with a narrow body. A good start would be 2 X weekly to DUB, MAN and GLA for summer seasonal service and make Detroit a true hub for Spirit.
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:50 am

compensateme wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Delta has added A321’s to both BOS and DCA this summer. Right now they have FLL and TPA at 4x 757 each, presumably these are placeholders for what I think will be all A321.


They're not placeholders. DL's domestic 757 fleet will grow to 82 with the presumed phaseout of NRT-based 757 flying. That's quite large -- only the 739 and MD-88 subtypes are larger, and it's roughly 2.5x the size of the 321 fleet.

Enjoy the 757 renaissance -- they've been gently scheduled from DTW in recent years, and will likely be phased out by (mostly) 321 in the next decade or so.
There’s going to be a lot of 757 flying around there coming up in April. Mix of -200s and -300s.
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:13 pm

compensateme wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Delta has added A321’s to both BOS and DCA this summer. Right now they have FLL and TPA at 4x 757 each, presumably these are placeholders for what I think will be all A321.


They're not placeholders. DL's domestic 757 fleet will grow to 82 with the presumed phaseout of NRT-based 757 flying. That's quite large -- only the 739 and MD-88 subtypes are larger, and it's roughly 2.5x the size of the 321 fleet.

Enjoy the 757 renaissance -- they've been gently scheduled from DTW in recent years, and will likely be phased out by (mostly) 321 in the next decade or so.
Still too far out by if we go off the June schedule, DTW will be crawling with 737-900s.
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:22 pm

There is a 321 invasion into dtw starting this summer. The 321 will be flying all San flights, and it will be doing sea, lax, phx as well.
 
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:04 pm

dtwpilot225 wrote:
There is a 321 invasion into dtw starting this summer. The 321 will be flying all San flights, and it will be doing sea, lax, phx as well.
MCO and RSW during the week of the 4th as well. BOS and DCA beginning the week after the 4th. They did say DTW was to be the 2nd largest base for the 321 because they’re pushing M88s to ATL and M90s to MSP.
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:39 pm

Air France extends 787-9 service to DTW until June 30, 2018 according to routes online.
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:57 pm

flymco753 wrote:
Air France extends 787-9 service to DTW until June 30, 2018 according to routes online.


Is AF377 no longer a daily flight? I noticed it doesn't operate on some days.
 
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:05 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Air France extends 787-9 service to DTW until June 30, 2018 according to routes online.


Is AF377 no longer a daily flight? I noticed it doesn't operate on some days.
It has been off peak/4x weekly for a few years now.
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:10 pm

flymco753 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Air France extends 787-9 service to DTW until June 30, 2018 according to routes online.


Is AF377 no longer a daily flight? I noticed it doesn't operate on some days.
It has been off peak/4x weekly for a few years now.


Seriously? I must have never noticed this through all these years.
 
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:19 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:

Is AF377 no longer a daily flight? I noticed it doesn't operate on some days.
It has been off peak/4x weekly for a few years now.


Seriously? I must have never noticed this through all these years.
Yes, I don't know when it started but it was like that in W14/15 I believe. Hopefully, with the 787-9 or 777-200ER, this allows them to go daily. Not to mention, this summer the DTW-CDG route will go to 3x daily, with DL running a 76W and 333 while AF flies the 787-9 and 777. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the flights turned into a 359 for Delta at some point though.
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:58 am

flymco753 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
It has been off peak/4x weekly for a few years now.


Seriously? I must have never noticed this through all these years.
Yes, I don't know when it started but it was like that in W14/15 I believe. Hopefully, with the 787-9 or 777-200ER, this allows them to go daily. Not to mention, this summer the DTW-CDG route will go to 3x daily, with DL running a 76W and 333 while AF flies the 787-9 and 777. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the flights turned into a 359 for Delta at some point though.


Just out of curiosity, I know that KLM used to operate one of the AMS flights years ago. Is there any reason why in 2018, that AF operates one of the 3 DTW-CDG routes but KLM doesn't operate any of the 4 DTW-AMS routes?
 
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:25 am

CVGDTWfan wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:

Seriously? I must have never noticed this through all these years.
Yes, I don't know when it started but it was like that in W14/15 I believe. Hopefully, with the 787-9 or 777-200ER, this allows them to go daily. Not to mention, this summer the DTW-CDG route will go to 3x daily, with DL running a 76W and 333 while AF flies the 787-9 and 777. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the flights turned into a 359 for Delta at some point though.


Just out of curiosity, I know that KLM used to operate one of the AMS flights years ago. Is there any reason why in 2018, that AF operates one of the 3 DTW-CDG routes but KLM doesn't operate any of the 4 DTW-AMS routes?
There’s no need for KLM to do so. Delta will probably have 2 A350s on the route and would utilize the 333 on the other 2 frequencies.
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:19 pm

JAX has been reverted back to the CR9 in April. It was planned as an MD-90 until May where it would switch to a 717, but it looks like RJ service is here to stay on JAX.
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:22 pm

I would appreciate some opinions. I was analyzing interior Mexico opportunities for DTW yesterday and came up with a few solutions to further strengthen DTW-Mexico service. I personally don't think BJX is it, here's why;

If BJX is successful, I see AM going into a 3x weekly QRO on the E190. It's a slightly smaller market compared to BJX, but is another auto driven market which means freight and front paying passengers. I think that would be it for AM.

I think if anyone were to add GDL, it'd be Volaris. The DTW-GDL segment was barely short of 7000 for 2017. This route is mostly VFR so an airline that can cater to the price of VFR traffic would be best. I suspect 2x weekly would be sufficient on their A320.

QRO and GDL are really the only 2 markets that are viable to happen at some point. QRO sooner then later, GDL by 2025.
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:15 pm

Big cuts at DTW for AA this week per the OAG not a good sign. What does this say about the chances of AA starting LAX out of Detroit.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
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