klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:36 pm

A big thumbs up to Windsor Air Canada starts Windsor Montreal service it will be the first Air Canada jet service there in 15 years


Flight #

Depart

Time

Arrive

Time


AC8183

Montreal

08:50

Windsor, ON

10:39


AC8184

Windsor, ON

11:10

Montreal

12:55
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klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:43 pm

flymco753 wrote:
Let’s talk about WOW tomorrow


The first WOW Air Arrival is tonight
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Puissance
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:03 pm

Press coverage of the new Montreal flight. Starts July 2nd on a 50 seater jet. London gets Q400 service starting the same time. http://windsorstar.com/news/local-news/ ... al-flights
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:10 pm

Seems to me that UA upgagued an EWR flight from an E170 to a 739 for the next few weeks.

UA runs mainline to all stations from DTW besides IAD.
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klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:53 pm

flymco753 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
They've began working on a new website that has a beta running, they list WOW on here. Check it: https://beta.metroairport.com/

I also drove by the D Concourse before heading back to Orlando and they have signs and a ticket counter.


I looked under airlines and didn't see it listed on the new site either.

https://beta.metroairport.com/flights/airline-directory
Try going to the part on the main page where it says "terminal by airline", it should be a drop down.



Looks like they have some high school kid designing the website. To me the new one is actually worse than the old one. They should hire some profession web design firm to build it for them something that looks professional and useful
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klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:55 pm

Puissance wrote:
Press coverage of the new Montreal flight. Starts July 2nd on a 50 seater jet. London gets Q400 service starting the same time. http://windsorstar.com/news/local-news/ ... al-flights


Always love seeing adds out of this region. I'm pretty sure the AC fares out of YQG are better than Delta fares out of DTW
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:57 pm

flymco753 wrote:
Seems to me that UA upgagued an EWR flight from an E170 to a 739 for the next few weeks.

UA runs mainline to all stations from DTW besides IAD.


Over the past couple years, UA has periodically -- seemingly random -- upgaguged DTW/EWR for brief stints. The LF are generally terrible -- typically below the 50% mark.

klm617 wrote:
Looks like they have some high school kid designing the website. To me the new one is actually worse than the old one. They should hire some profession web design firm to build it for them something that looks professional and useful


The website is meant to be a simple, clean design. Historically (B6, AM, AS, etc.), WCAA publishes press releases for new service but waits until service inaugurates before listing the airline. We might not agree with it, but the policy has been consistent for many years now.
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:01 pm

klm617 wrote:
Puissance wrote:
Press coverage of the new Montreal flight. Starts July 2nd on a 50 seater jet. London gets Q400 service starting the same time. http://windsorstar.com/news/local-news/ ... al-flights


Always love seeing adds out of this region. I'm pretty sure the AC fares out of YQG are better than Delta fares out of DTW


Of course they are, because Porter competes heavily in the market and offers short layover, same-plane service to YUL. Absent that, they wouldn't be.
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:35 pm

This video is not only neat, but proves that leakage is a problem. Folks that they interviewed admitted to Toronto and Chicago. It's good to see some of that traffic being re attained. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1e6Samupso
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2Holer4Longhaul
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:21 pm

flymco753 wrote:
This video is not only neat, but proves that leakage is a problem. Folks that they interviewed admitted to Toronto and Chicago. It's good to see some of that traffic being re attained. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1e6Samupso

The existence of spill (what you call leakage) isn't a problem. It's a factor that helps keep Detroit profitable for the airlines' serving it. If fares became a race to the bottom like in ORD, you're not going to be seeing airlines without considerable feed (read: airlines that aren't DL JV partners) coming into the market.
If airlines drop fares to capture the spill, yields across the board will drop. Then, the business case for your vaunted EI service will become much, much weaker.
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SumChristianus
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:23 pm

2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
This video is not only neat, but proves that leakage is a problem. Folks that they interviewed admitted to Toronto and Chicago. It's good to see some of that traffic being re attained. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1e6Samupso

The existence of spill (what you call leakage) isn't a problem. It's a factor that helps keep Detroit profitable for the airlines' serving it. If fares became a race to the bottom like in ORD, you're not going to be seeing airlines without considerable feed (read: airlines that aren't DL JV partners) coming into the market.
If airlines drop fares to capture the spill, yields across the board will drop. Then, the business case for your vaunted EI service will become much, much weaker.


If an airline is carrying profitable traffic anyway, they don't care what airport it flies out of (typically). DTW gets leakage from GRR, TOL, LAN, FWA, SBN, etc., so in a way, its O/D numbers are not really its own. In then end, demand is dynamic, elastic, and complex, and can not really be exactly determined, a route from DTW might work, it might not. Juast as DTW complains about ORD/YYZ; FWA and LAN have reason to complain about DTW leakage.
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klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:29 pm

2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
This video is not only neat, but proves that leakage is a problem. Folks that they interviewed admitted to Toronto and Chicago. It's good to see some of that traffic being re attained. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1e6Samupso

The existence of spill (what you call leakage) isn't a problem. It's a factor that helps keep Detroit profitable for the airlines' serving it. If fares became a race to the bottom like in ORD, you're not going to be seeing airlines without considerable feed (read: airlines that aren't DL JV partners) coming into the market.
If airlines drop fares to capture the spill, yields across the board will drop. Then, the business case for your vaunted EI service will become much, much weaker.



That's not even remotely true if flights are so much more profitable at Detroit then they are at Chicago was does Chicago have 4 or 5 times as much traffic when the CSA is only maybe twice as large. The leakage to other cities is a whole different market that no one wants to address in Detroit so they key is bringing in flights that cater to that marker more Spirit, FI, WW, DY and EI. Those airlines bring the road warriors back to Detroit that are driving to YYZ and ORD. EI sell tickets at maybe 2/3 the price Delta does something that would be welcome here in Detroit $300 off on a round trip to Europe would bring back travelers and because of EI's lower cost structure than can do it profitably. that are using other airports. I talk to people at least once a month that make the drive and I'm just one person.
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klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:31 pm

SumChristianus wrote:
2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
This video is not only neat, but proves that leakage is a problem. Folks that they interviewed admitted to Toronto and Chicago. It's good to see some of that traffic being re attained. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1e6Samupso

The existence of spill (what you call leakage) isn't a problem. It's a factor that helps keep Detroit profitable for the airlines' serving it. If fares became a race to the bottom like in ORD, you're not going to be seeing airlines without considerable feed (read: airlines that aren't DL JV partners) coming into the market.
If airlines drop fares to capture the spill, yields across the board will drop. Then, the business case for your vaunted EI service will become much, much weaker.


If an airline is carrying profitable traffic anyway, they don't care what airport it flies out of (typically). DTW gets leakage from GRR, TOL, LAN, FWA, SBN, etc., so in a way, its O/D numbers are not really its own. In then end, demand is dynamic, elastic, and complex, and can not really be exactly determined, a route from DTW might work, it might not. Juast as DTW complains about ORD/YYZ; FWA and LAN have reason to complain about DTW leakage.


You can't even compare for every one person that drives to Detroit from those places there are probably 20 that travel from Detroit to YYZ and ORD and even from the cities you mentioned except TOL people are more likely to drive to ORD than DTW for their international travel.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:38 pm

flymco753 wrote:
This video is not only neat, but proves that leakage is a problem. Folks that they interviewed admitted to Toronto and Chicago. It's good to see some of that traffic being re attained. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1e6Samupso



Great video thanks for sharing.
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:40 pm

klm617 wrote:
SumChristianus wrote:
2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
The existence of spill (what you call leakage) isn't a problem. It's a factor that helps keep Detroit profitable for the airlines' serving it. If fares became a race to the bottom like in ORD, you're not going to be seeing airlines without considerable feed (read: airlines that aren't DL JV partners) coming into the market.
If airlines drop fares to capture the spill, yields across the board will drop. Then, the business case for your vaunted EI service will become much, much weaker.


If an airline is carrying profitable traffic anyway, they don't care what airport it flies out of (typically). DTW gets leakage from GRR, TOL, LAN, FWA, SBN, etc., so in a way, its O/D numbers are not really its own. In then end, demand is dynamic, elastic, and complex, and can not really be exactly determined, a route from DTW might work, it might not. Juast as DTW complains about ORD/YYZ; FWA and LAN have reason to complain about DTW leakage.


You can't even compare for every one person that drives to Detroit from those places there are probably 20 that travel from Detroit to YYZ and ORD and even from the cities you mentioned except TOL people are more likely to drive to ORD than DTW for their international travel.
At the same time though, unless it's a route for leisure, you don't want to trash all yields. Yields to MCO suck but carriers know they can make it up with added fees, reason why I think B6 could do it once C opens up in Orlando.
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klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:36 pm

flymco753 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
SumChristianus wrote:

If an airline is carrying profitable traffic anyway, they don't care what airport it flies out of (typically). DTW gets leakage from GRR, TOL, LAN, FWA, SBN, etc., so in a way, its O/D numbers are not really its own. In then end, demand is dynamic, elastic, and complex, and can not really be exactly determined, a route from DTW might work, it might not. Juast as DTW complains about ORD/YYZ; FWA and LAN have reason to complain about DTW leakage.


You can't even compare for every one person that drives to Detroit from those places there are probably 20 that travel from Detroit to YYZ and ORD and even from the cities you mentioned except TOL people are more likely to drive to ORD than DTW for their international travel.
At the same time though, unless it's a route for leisure, you don't want to trash all yields. Yields to MCO suck but carriers know they can make it up with added fees, reason why I think B6 could do it once C opens up in Orlando.



Let's face it for the most part the premium traffic in this market is pretty well sown up that's why I don't think BA will ever be back. But the market that is still wide open here is the market that FI. WW, EK, QR, and EI can fill the market where a cheap fare carries more weight than brand loyalty. Let's face it the people that are going to fly EI, EK, QR or FI at this point either can't afford a ticket of are driving to ORD or YYZ out of necessity these carriers would stimulate traffic out of Detroit rather than wining it away from LH or DL. I don't understand why B6 is not on MCO from Detroit because let's face it if you had a second choice besides Delta JetBlue is a no brainer over the other options.
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n2dru
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:34 pm

Does Jetblue need to add MCO? Spirit and Frontier offer ULCC service already. And there's Southwest seasonally. What would Jetblue bring that isn't already provided by the other carriers already on the route?
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:06 pm

n2dru wrote:
Does Jetblue need to add MCO? Spirit and Frontier offer ULCC service already. And there's Southwest seasonally. What would Jetblue bring that isn't already provided by the other carriers already on the route?
They could be the ground where you pay a lower price than Delta but get more than Spirit.
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2Holer4Longhaul
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:14 pm

flymco753 wrote:
n2dru wrote:
Does Jetblue need to add MCO? Spirit and Frontier offer ULCC service already. And there's Southwest seasonally. What would Jetblue bring that isn't already provided by the other carriers already on the route?
They could be the ground where you pay a lower price than Delta but get more than Spirit.

That sounds like a barrel being drained at both ends.
It only seems weaker as an idea when you consider that most leisure traffic takes the lowest fare available (ULCC), and passengers with standards tend to have brand loyalty (in this case, to Delta).
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klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:38 pm

2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
n2dru wrote:
Does Jetblue need to add MCO? Spirit and Frontier offer ULCC service already. And there's Southwest seasonally. What would Jetblue bring that isn't already provided by the other carriers already on the route?
They could be the ground where you pay a lower price than Delta but get more than Spirit.

That sounds like a barrel being drained at both ends.
It only seems weaker as an idea when you consider that most leisure traffic takes the lowest fare available (ULCC), and passengers with standards tend to have brand loyalty (in this case, to Delta).



Not true you have either a very high price or a very low price with no middle ground. I'm not a fan of Spirit so I would like something more like a jetblue which I would chose over Spirit if it was cheaper than Delta but yet more expensive than Spirit.
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kavok
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:54 pm

klm617 wrote:
2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
They could be the ground where you pay a lower price than Delta but get more than Spirit.

That sounds like a barrel being drained at both ends.
It only seems weaker as an idea when you consider that most leisure traffic takes the lowest fare available (ULCC), and passengers with standards tend to have brand loyalty (in this case, to Delta).



Not true you have either a very high price or a very low price with no middle ground. I'm not a fan of Spirit so I would like something more like a jetblue which I would chose over Spirit if it was cheaper than Delta but yet more expensive than Spirit.


The issue is, as always, if a Jet Blue for example did show up on the route, Delta would match flights. And naturally then, most of the "standard" people would pick Delta over Jet Blue is price was close to equal, because DL would have more frequency and probably most of the "standard" people have a sky miles account.

The only way a non-ULCC can really compete with DL in DTW is if they have enough loyalty on the other end (i.e UA from a United hub, AA from an American Hub, etc.). And I just don't think B6 has a large enough presence in MCO that enough people would choose them over DL, if price were close to equal.
 
ADrum23
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:59 pm

Can someone explain why DL doesn't fly DTW-HNL? Is there not enough of a market?
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:12 am

ADrum23 wrote:
Can someone explain why DL doesn't fly DTW-HNL? Is there not enough of a market?


Because they have committed to a MSP-HNL route and if they added DTW-HNL that would negatively impact MSP-HNL. MSP-HNL was sort of a consolation prize when they decided not to bring back MSP-FCO
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klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:15 am

kavok wrote:
klm617 wrote:
2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
That sounds like a barrel being drained at both ends.
It only seems weaker as an idea when you consider that most leisure traffic takes the lowest fare available (ULCC), and passengers with standards tend to have brand loyalty (in this case, to Delta).



Not true you have either a very high price or a very low price with no middle ground. I'm not a fan of Spirit so I would like something more like a jetblue which I would chose over Spirit if it was cheaper than Delta but yet more expensive than Spirit.


The issue is, as always, if a Jet Blue for example did show up on the route, Delta would match flights. And naturally then, most of the "standard" people would pick Delta over Jet Blue is price was close to equal, because DL would have more frequency and probably most of the "standard" people have a sky miles account.

The only way a non-ULCC can really compete with DL in DTW is if they have enough loyalty on the other end (i.e UA from a United hub, AA from an American Hub, etc.). And I just don't think B6 has a large enough presence in MCO that enough people would choose them over DL, if price were close to equal.



Why do they then fly ATL-MCO where Delta has almost bihourly service and also CLE-MCO has no hub carrier meaning they should be on that route. MCO has feed for B6 as it is a focus city. B6 should run a late night flight up from MCO and RON at Detroit and then a early morning return to MCO
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n2dru
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:43 am

Maybe because ATL-MCO is a large O&D market. Its not all connections. Not to say DTW-MCO isn't a large market but B6 figured they could make some money flying ATL-MCO. JS
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:31 am

n2dru wrote:
Maybe because ATL-MCO is a large O&D market. Its not all connections. Not to say DTW-MCO isn't a large market but B6 figured they could make some money flying ATL-MCO. JS
DTW-MCO is larger than ATL-MCO, generally about 200-400 depending on the season. The yields are actually better on DTW-MCO, and would do fine at once a day on the A320. I think B6 would be better off flying MCO than FLL simply because they would fill the plane with O&D, guaranteed.
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:55 am

DTW-MCO is non-core network flying for B6 and would be going up against 2 very strong, entrenched carriers that both have very strong brand awareness and loyalty in the market.
In the eyes of B6 there is nothing special about DTW-MCO that is no different than a myriad of dozens if not hundreds of other city-pairs they currently do not serve today.
I mean seriously for all the complaints about perceived lack of air service / competition at DTW, MCO is about as good as it gets in terms of competition/schedule/fares.
(Don't use peak spring-break period Saturdays in March/April as a point of complaint as that is the peak of the peak of demand in the market)

MSP-HNL was a more natural add at the time for DL. MSP was naturally going to get service before DTW. MSP had service in the NW days, MSP was offering targeted incentives for the route, and the stage length is slightly shorter than DTW.
Don't get me wrong, they probably could operate DTW-HNL its a high-barriers to entry route in terms of aircraft requirements and costs. They could probably put another flight on DTW-AMS and get more revenue than DTW-HNL for what its worth.
 
n2dru
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:12 am

Orlando Airport site state otherwise in their Top Domestic markets link
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:15 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
DTW-MCO is non-core network flying for B6 and would be going up against 2 very strong, entrenched carriers that both have very strong brand awareness and loyalty in the market.
In the eyes of B6 there is nothing special about DTW-MCO that is no different than a myriad of dozens if not hundreds of other city-pairs they currently do not serve today.
I mean seriously for all the complaints about perceived lack of air service / competition at DTW, MCO is about as good as it gets in terms of competition/schedule/fares.
(Don't use peak spring-break period Saturdays in March/April as a point of complaint as that is the peak of the peak of demand in the market)

MSP-HNL was a more natural add at the time for DL. MSP was naturally going to get service before DTW. MSP had service in the NW days, MSP was offering targeted incentives for the route, and the stage length is slightly shorter than DTW.
Don't get me wrong, they probably could operate DTW-HNL its a high-barriers to entry route in terms of aircraft requirements and costs. They could probably put another flight on DTW-AMS and get more revenue than DTW-HNL for what its worth.



As far as MCO-ATL they did the same when they added it with no market brand awareness. They have been serving Detroit now for 4 years so they must have some sort of brand awareness in this market. So with that being said what target incentives is Detroit offering ? I agree with your statement about an extra DTW-AMS add but I also think that is out of the question now due to the fact that AMS-MSP is 4 daily.
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n2dru
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:15 am

ATL appears to be a a slightly larger market from MCO.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:19 am

n2dru wrote:
ATL appears to be a a slightly larger market from MCO.


Now weight that out with the capacity allocated in the two markets and guess which hub that traffic is flowing over when the nonstops from Detroit are full.
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NWADTWE16
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:29 am

DL only competes for price on the flight TIME that matches the carrier they compete with. Ie, DTW-FLL, only the first departure that's wingtip to wingtip with B6 7am departure is matched within $10-20USD, the remainder of the day (4 flights) are generally, $100+ USD more, so make whatever case you wish out of that, but it's how they are doing it with B6.
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n2dru
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:41 am

True DL runs a ton of connections thru ATL from MCO, thus the near hourly flights. ATL is the largest metro outside the state of Florida within an hour's flight plus the o&d between the two is large. DL's 6:55am dep to MCO isn't filled with connections.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:50 am

n2dru wrote:
True DL runs a ton of connections thru ATL from MCO, thus the near hourly flights. ATL is the largest metro outside the state of Florida within an hour's flight plus the o&d between the two is large. DL's 6:55am dep to MCO isn't filled with connections.
PDEW between DTW-MCO is higher than ATL. While ATL has more passengers who travel between MCO-ATL, that's simply a metric including connections. When you take the DOT's Table 6 data and put it together, DTW has been ahead of ATL in terms of PDEW to MCO.

F9 flies the A321, does fine. Spirit flies 3x daily even in the off season, one flight in which is an A321. Delta uses mostly 757's and soon to include the A321 6x daily. WN does well with a Saturday flight in the winter, I think blended with some connections in MCO, B6 could make it work. However, even the slightest shift in connecting pax away from FLL, B6 would end FLL over MCO.
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NWADTWE16
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Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:12 am

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:07 am

Both MCO & FLL can co-exist due to the strong O&D plus connections at both for B6, FLL is way more important than MCO however. So did no one get a pic of our purple late night friend?
I haven't been everywhere, but it's on my list!
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:27 am

NWADTWE16 wrote:
Both MCO & FLL can co-exist due to the strong O&D plus connections at both for B6, FLL is way more important than MCO however. So did no one get a pic of our purple late night friend?
A video was posted on the Michigan Planespotting Page.
Resort, and other ground transportation options are on level 1.

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NWADTWE16
Posts: 554
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:12 am

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:17 am

ok cool, thanks
I haven't been everywhere, but it's on my list!
 
klm617
Posts: 2979
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:19 pm

For those of you who still have your head buried in the sand here is just more proof of the international leakage from DTW to ORD and YYZ it's real and it needs to be addressed by courting more low cost international service to Detroit. Here is a post from another thread by FCOTSTW .



I would have gladly supported my "local market" if I would have got a chance. To a rigid supply, consumers can only answer with a very elastic demand. Unfortunately DTW aims at harvesting OD corporate flyers, loves to cater at transit passengers originating from fairer, competitive markets, and does not give a damn about local retail flyers. Up to until ten years ago, you could find DTW-Europe tickets as low as $ 500 in low season, $ 800 in mid season, and $ 1,000 in high season, all of this by shopping around. Since DL took over NW, it seems that fares have been increased in the 30% to 50% range. Higher operating costs and shrinking profits? No doubt about it. But with YQG-Europe being $ 300-$ 500 cheaper and YYZ-Europe being $ 500-$ 800 cheaper, I can guarantee you that the 4-hour drive to YYZ is a breeze.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
2Holer4Longhaul
Posts: 350
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:03 am

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:39 am

klm617 wrote:
For those of you who still have your head buried in the sand here is just more proof of the international leakage from DTW to ORD and YYZ it's real and it needs to be addressed by courting more low cost international service to Detroit. Here is a post from another thread by FCOTSTW .



I would have gladly supported my "local market" if I would have got a chance. To a rigid supply, consumers can only answer with a very elastic demand. Unfortunately DTW aims at harvesting OD corporate flyers, loves to cater at transit passengers originating from fairer, competitive markets, and does not give a damn about local retail flyers. Up to until ten years ago, you could find DTW-Europe tickets as low as $ 500 in low season, $ 800 in mid season, and $ 1,000 in high season, all of this by shopping around. Since DL took over NW, it seems that fares have been increased in the 30% to 50% range. Higher operating costs and shrinking profits? No doubt about it. But with YQG-Europe being $ 300-$ 500 cheaper and YYZ-Europe being $ 500-$ 800 cheaper, I can guarantee you that the 4-hour drive to YYZ is a breeze.

A single a.netter's anecdotal evidence is not proof of anything. Even proof of what you call leakage (aka spillover traffic) doesn't prove that it's a problem because it's not.
If DTW had rock-bottom fares like ORD/YYZ, your chances as a smaller market of attracting vaunted EI service would be very low.
"You know, if you just set out to be liked, you would be prepared to compromise on anything, wouldn't you, at any time? And you would achieve nothing!" - Margaret Thatcher
 
klm617
Posts: 2979
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:19 am

2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
klm617 wrote:
For those of you who still have your head buried in the sand here is just more proof of the international leakage from DTW to ORD and YYZ it's real and it needs to be addressed by courting more low cost international service to Detroit. Here is a post from another thread by FCOTSTW .



I would have gladly supported my "local market" if I would have got a chance. To a rigid supply, consumers can only answer with a very elastic demand. Unfortunately DTW aims at harvesting OD corporate flyers, loves to cater at transit passengers originating from fairer, competitive markets, and does not give a damn about local retail flyers. Up to until ten years ago, you could find DTW-Europe tickets as low as $ 500 in low season, $ 800 in mid season, and $ 1,000 in high season, all of this by shopping around. Since DL took over NW, it seems that fares have been increased in the 30% to 50% range. Higher operating costs and shrinking profits? No doubt about it. But with YQG-Europe being $ 300-$ 500 cheaper and YYZ-Europe being $ 500-$ 800 cheaper, I can guarantee you that the 4-hour drive to YYZ is a breeze.

A single a.netter's anecdotal evidence is not proof of anything. Even proof of what you call leakage (aka spillover traffic) doesn't prove that it's a problem because it's not.
If DTW had rock-bottom fares like ORD/YYZ, your chances as a smaller market of attracting vaunted EI service would be very low.


It certainly is a problem maybe not in your eyes but it's lost revenue for the airport. I was just posting this there has been much more evidence if you have been following this thread I speak to people all the time and talked to my travel agent who books many people out of YQG and YYZ. For your information DTW is on the short list when EI gets the A321 so I do know what I'm talking about.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
BenflysDTW
Posts: 162
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:39 am

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:01 am

In the meantime, how are the bookings for MTY and BJX keeping up? As BJX starts tomorrow! Looks like MEX will be less than daily for AM in the winter, 5-6 times weekly, but I can’t find bookings for the flight on Sundays, so it’s already less than daily. I also noticed that DL removed the second daily LHR flight, it only is seen during the summer?!?!?!
 
BenflysDTW
Posts: 162
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:39 am

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:02 am

Oh and yes I know it was only three times weekly to begin with for LHR.
 
2Holer4Longhaul
Posts: 350
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:03 am

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:06 am

klm617 wrote:
2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
klm617 wrote:
For those of you who still have your head buried in the sand here is just more proof of the international leakage from DTW to ORD and YYZ it's real and it needs to be addressed by courting more low cost international service to Detroit. Here is a post from another thread by FCOTSTW .



I would have gladly supported my "local market" if I would have got a chance. To a rigid supply, consumers can only answer with a very elastic demand. Unfortunately DTW aims at harvesting OD corporate flyers, loves to cater at transit passengers originating from fairer, competitive markets, and does not give a damn about local retail flyers. Up to until ten years ago, you could find DTW-Europe tickets as low as $ 500 in low season, $ 800 in mid season, and $ 1,000 in high season, all of this by shopping around. Since DL took over NW, it seems that fares have been increased in the 30% to 50% range. Higher operating costs and shrinking profits? No doubt about it. But with YQG-Europe being $ 300-$ 500 cheaper and YYZ-Europe being $ 500-$ 800 cheaper, I can guarantee you that the 4-hour drive to YYZ is a breeze.

A single a.netter's anecdotal evidence is not proof of anything. Even proof of what you call leakage (aka spillover traffic) doesn't prove that it's a problem because it's not.
If DTW had rock-bottom fares like ORD/YYZ, your chances as a smaller market of attracting vaunted EI service would be very low.


It certainly is a problem maybe not in your eyes but it's lost revenue for the airport. I was just posting this there has been much more evidence if you have been following this thread I speak to people all the time and talked to my travel agent who books many people out of YQG and YYZ. For your information DTW is on the short list when EI gets the A321 so I do know what I'm talking about.

Revenue? Maybe.
Profit? No. And that's the point. Flying the most people does not equate to the WCAA and the airlines making the most money.

For your information, there is spill traffic in this real world of ours, from which I presume your statement on EI comes from. If airlines started a race to the bottom on fares to catch it locally, DTW would not be on anyone's shortlist.
"You know, if you just set out to be liked, you would be prepared to compromise on anything, wouldn't you, at any time? And you would achieve nothing!" - Margaret Thatcher
 
tphuang
Posts: 1756
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:10 am

There is quite a few reasons DTW-FLL work a lot more than DTW-MCO for B6. B6 is more invested in FLL right now, it captures more of a point of sale there and most importantly, it's their Caribbean hub, which means it can not only get connection traffic to help fill the seats, but also more importantly hurt DL in the DTW to Caribbean market, which otherwise would get funneled through ATL.
 
klm617
Posts: 2979
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:07 am

2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
klm617 wrote:
2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
A single a.netter's anecdotal evidence is not proof of anything. Even proof of what you call leakage (aka spillover traffic) doesn't prove that it's a problem because it's not.
If DTW had rock-bottom fares like ORD/YYZ, your chances as a smaller market of attracting vaunted EI service would be very low.


It certainly is a problem maybe not in your eyes but it's lost revenue for the airport. I was just posting this there has been much more evidence if you have been following this thread I speak to people all the time and talked to my travel agent who books many people out of YQG and YYZ. For your information DTW is on the short list when EI gets the A321 so I do know what I'm talking about.

Revenue? Maybe.
Profit? No. And that's the point. Flying the most people does not equate to the WCAA and the airlines making the most money.

For your information, there is spill traffic in this real world of ours, from which I presume your statement on EI comes from. If airlines started a race to the bottom on fares to catch it locally, DTW would not be on anyone's shortlist.


Spill is not an issue at YYZ and ORD and who's to say that EI or DY wouldn't turn a profit if they served Detroit. The WCAA is not there to protect the profit of airlines it is there as a public entity to get the most for the people who use the airport. EI has a fare base and of course it will maintain that fare base to make any route worth while which with a 321 and connections on the DUB side without a doubt very viable should they chose to operate it.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
2Holer4Longhaul
Posts: 350
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:03 am

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:49 pm

klm617 wrote:
2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
klm617 wrote:

It certainly is a problem maybe not in your eyes but it's lost revenue for the airport. I was just posting this there has been much more evidence if you have been following this thread I speak to people all the time and talked to my travel agent who books many people out of YQG and YYZ. For your information DTW is on the short list when EI gets the A321 so I do know what I'm talking about.

Revenue? Maybe.
Profit? No. And that's the point. Flying the most people does not equate to the WCAA and the airlines making the most money.

For your information, there is spill traffic in this real world of ours, from which I presume your statement on EI comes from. If airlines started a race to the bottom on fares to catch it locally, DTW would not be on anyone's shortlist.


Spill is not an issue at YYZ and ORD and who's to say that EI or DY wouldn't turn a profit if they served Detroit. The WCAA is not there to protect the profit of airlines it is there as a public entity to get the most for the people who use the airport. EI has a fare base and of course it will maintain that fare base to make any route worth while which with a 321 and connections on the DUB side without a doubt very viable should they chose to operate it.

You're confusing two separate situations.

In reality as it is in the world we live in, where spill exists and prices from Detroit are rather high, EI could be viable.

In an alternate world where airlines chase spill and lower fares big-time, EI eervixe would not be viable.

The point is that you should realize thst spill is advantageous to DTW being profitable for airlines, because that's the reason airlines fly to begin with.
"You know, if you just set out to be liked, you would be prepared to compromise on anything, wouldn't you, at any time? And you would achieve nothing!" - Margaret Thatcher
 
klm617
Posts: 2979
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:37 pm

2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
klm617 wrote:
2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
Revenue? Maybe.
Profit? No. And that's the point. Flying the most people does not equate to the WCAA and the airlines making the most money.

For your information, there is spill traffic in this real world of ours, from which I presume your statement on EI comes from. If airlines started a race to the bottom on fares to catch it locally, DTW would not be on anyone's shortlist.


Spill is not an issue at YYZ and ORD and who's to say that EI or DY wouldn't turn a profit if they served Detroit. The WCAA is not there to protect the profit of airlines it is there as a public entity to get the most for the people who use the airport. EI has a fare base and of course it will maintain that fare base to make any route worth while which with a 321 and connections on the DUB side without a doubt very viable should they chose to operate it.

You're confusing two separate situations.

In reality as it is in the world we live in, where spill exists and prices from Detroit are rather high, EI could be viable.

In an alternate world where airlines chase spill and lower fares big-time, EI eervixe would not be viable.

The point is that you should realize thst spill is advantageous to DTW being profitable for airlines, because that's the reason airlines fly to begin with.


No you have that backwards airlines are in the service industry which means they should serve the needs of the customer while being profitable. You need both sides of the equation in an ideal world but when there is not enough competition in the marketplace the airlines don't have to consider the needs of the customer ie international travel out of Detroit. In Detroit there are only high end fares in the market those cutting of a whole market those who need to travel out of Detroit with a budgets airfare because fares are kept artificially high do to lack of competition. To your argument why to are airlines always adding the market then that air already saturated with low fare competition ie ORD, NYC and BOS where fares are artificially low but yet airlines keep adding capacity there
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
n2dru
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:02 am

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:56 pm

Quick question, how were fares prior to the merger? I don't recall DTW being awash with a foreign tails.
 
n2dru
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:02 am

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:24 pm

I pose that question because NW was VERY aggressive in defending its hubs from competition. So has this "spill" occurred since the late 80s?
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:26 pm

AM begins Connect service to BJX today, praying for the service to do well. BJX and MTY are basically neck in neck right now so they should arrive within minutes of each other.
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