LAXdude1023
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:50 pm

klm617 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
klm617 wrote:


Again all I ask was is Detroit waiving two years landing fee like other airports are and the answer is obviously no displayed by all these diversionary posts we now know BOS and ATL do does DTW waive 2 years landing fees for any airline wanting to start serve here it's a simple yes or no question. Again if DTW doesn't waive two years landing fees it puts it at a competitive disadvantage than other airports. Again on supporting service I ask you what is the O/D of ORD-AKL but yet it's attempted I bet it even isn't close to the DTW-India market which has a partner hub at each end DTW=Delta BOM=Jet Airways.


First off, BOS offers incentives ONLY to carriers wishing to fly to very specific regions. Its not a global thing.

Second, youre comparing ORD-AKL to DTW-India based off O&D alone? Ridiculous.

Obviously IAH/ORD-AKL is not a big O&D market. Heres why they doesnt matter:

1) The options to the South Pacific are FAR more limited than options to India. Its a huge reason ATL-JNB works so well.
2) IAH/ORD-New Zealand may be a small O&D market, IAH-Australia on the other hand is chalk full of J traffic and ORD-Australia is a nice sizable O&D market.
3) IAH-AKL is there to serve South Pacific-Southern US/Central America markets. ORD-AKL is there to serve South Pacific-Midwest/Northeast markets
4) Fares to the South Pacific are MUCH higher than fares to India which are typically quite low.

DTW-India doesnt need to be flown by anyone. This whole "they can have the market to themselves" bit is ridiculous. A case can be made for EK because their reach is far beyond India. DTW-BOM would be India specific.



First of all what regions is Detroit offering the 2 year landing fee waiver too none which puts it at a competitive disadvantage at gaing any service. If a big airport feels the need to do this to better attract airline service than surely Detroit needs to do the same if not better. Detroit I*India would generate a lot of J class passengers for Delta. Why is it so important for you to state all the reasons why a DTW anywhere link will not work why do you not want to see this market grow.


Wait, what?

I dont want to see the market succeed? Detroit is one of my favorite cities otherwise I wouldnt be on this train wreck of a thread. Facts are to this thread what Faygo is to Fruit Juice.

Everything here has become so predictable:

1) A fact is pointed out
2) Certain posters dont like it
3) Context is provided
4) Facts are demonized and called irrelevant
5) Conspiracies about about the WCAA and DL

Because everything here is now apparently about feelings and not facts, how do I (a "fact knower") lay down a factual argument without hurting feelings? And why should I care? Everything Ive posted has been factual. I refuse to let them be cherry picked or thrown out of context.
Next flight: IAH-UIO-IAH on UA in Y
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:14 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:

First off, BOS offers incentives ONLY to carriers wishing to fly to very specific regions. Its not a global thing.

Second, youre comparing ORD-AKL to DTW-India based off O&D alone? Ridiculous.

Obviously IAH/ORD-AKL is not a big O&D market. Heres why they doesnt matter:

1) The options to the South Pacific are FAR more limited than options to India. Its a huge reason ATL-JNB works so well.
2) IAH/ORD-New Zealand may be a small O&D market, IAH-Australia on the other hand is chalk full of J traffic and ORD-Australia is a nice sizable O&D market.
3) IAH-AKL is there to serve South Pacific-Southern US/Central America markets. ORD-AKL is there to serve South Pacific-Midwest/Northeast markets
4) Fares to the South Pacific are MUCH higher than fares to India which are typically quite low.

DTW-India doesnt need to be flown by anyone. This whole "they can have the market to themselves" bit is ridiculous. A case can be made for EK because their reach is far beyond India. DTW-BOM would be India specific.



First of all what regions is Detroit offering the 2 year landing fee waiver too none which puts it at a competitive disadvantage at gaing any service. If a big airport feels the need to do this to better attract airline service than surely Detroit needs to do the same if not better. Detroit I*India would generate a lot of J class passengers for Delta. Why is it so important for you to state all the reasons why a DTW anywhere link will not work why do you not want to see this market grow.


Wait, what?

I dont want to see the market succeed? Detroit is one of my favorite cities otherwise I wouldnt be on this train wreck of a thread. Facts are to this thread what Faygo is to Fruit Juice.

Everything here has become so predictable:

1) A fact is pointed out
2) Certain posters dont like it
3) Context is provided
4) Facts are demonized and called irrelevant
5) Conspiracies about about the WCAA and DL

Because everything here is now apparently about feelings and not facts, how do I (a "fact knower") lay down a factual argument without hurting feelings? And why should I care? Everything Ive posted has been factual. I refuse to let them be cherry picked or thrown out of context.



The FACTS are the Detroit India market is huge and that has been pointed out by other posters yet you refuse to acknowledge that. The market carries 150 PDEW and that doesn't include those driving to ORD to avoid a 2 stop flight to the smaller cities in India and high fares. The DL/9W connection in Mumbai would give DTW originating passenger more one-stop connections thoughout India albiet at I am sure higher fares but I agree with you EK is a much better option. FACT DTW has a lack of low fare capacity to Europe and you know as well as I do that there is no exact science for gauging the amount of leakage that there is to YYZ and ORD. I talk to people almost weekly who are using ORD, YQG and YYZ for their travel options to Europe but there there is no way to get exact numbers one good indicate of this is that WW has extended 4 weekly through the winter and moved their flight to a more desirable afternoon departure but again WW is not a real reliable connection to Europe it still has a long way to prove itself in my books. So that being said can we all agree that EK and EI are definite needs in this market and that Delta plays a shell game with it's capacity in the Detroit market for every add there is a subtraction in. We need these carriers to force Delta to up their game as for as customer choice goes. It even bewilders me that there still is no KLM on AMS-DTW. Again you being a fact know-er if 3 dailies on MSP-KEF and ORD-AKL are doable which all defy logic than there are surely possibilities out of Detroit that the facts don't align with that are viable.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:35 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
...
DTW-India doesnt need to be flown by anyone. This whole "they can have the market to themselves" bit is ridiculous. A case can be made for EK because their reach is far beyond India. DTW-BOM would be India specific.


Care to explain why? If DTW-India has
150 PDEW and being large potential to stimulate
Second largest Delta hub
Best Delta hub for transfers
On an average $300 more fares,
600 miles short trip (fuel savings)
No ME3 competition

Only reason it need not be flown by anyone. DTW is a captive market, we have no option other than pay $300 more and endure 30 hrs 2-stop trips.

Also some statistical areas in US include urban centers from 4 different states and others just include few counties. Not a fair comparison.


Because frankly that isnt enough.

Quoting fares from the internet is not a good way to judge what fares are at all. You dont have access to average fares paid or how many people from each market are in J, high fare Y, and discount Y.

BOM offers little for US-India traffic that DXB doesnt as far as DTW is concerned. EK would be a much better fit. It can not only serve India, but Pakistan, Bangladesh, Africa, and the Middle East. BOM only offers India. A market like DTW needs all the potential higher fare traffic it can get.

Frankly, DL is going to loose their shirt flying to India it doesnt matter where its from. This "new agreement" with the ME3 did NOTHING to change the landscape of flying between the US and India.

As far as that last line is concerned, simply no. Statistical areas are based on cohesive commute patterns. State lines are irrelevant.


Interesting every one else is claiming there is no market and fares are lot cheaper, and just throw in a "fact". Only issue we are not able to find those cheap fares.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:53 pm

klm617 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
NK is adding DTW-PBI starting December 21, 4x weekly seasonal



Looks like NK is now following the F9 and G4 model as everything they are adding is less than daily except ATL-EWR


Sometimes “less than daily” makes more sense. Fewer people travel on Tuesday, Wednesday and Saturday, which is why legacies often reduce service on these days and the flights that remain often yield the cheapest fares - e.g. NK’s frequent 75% off sales, which are generally restricted to Tu and We.
If you are an American who drives an auto built by a foreign-owned company yet complains about your favorite airline buying Airbus, then you are nothing more than a whiny hypocrite.
 
winginit
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:44 am

klm617 wrote:
The FACTS are the Detroit India market is huge and that has been pointed out by other posters yet you refuse to acknowledge that. The market carries 150 PDEW and that doesn't include those driving to ORD to avoid a 2 stop flight to the smaller cities in India and high fares.


Huge is a relative term. 150 PDEW is not huge within the context of a market's ability to profitably sustain a long-haul route with a widebody aircraft. Accept this fact.

klm617 wrote:
there is no exact science for gauging the amount of leakage that there is to YYZ and ORD. I talk to people almost weekly who are using ORD, YQG and YYZ for their travel options to Europe but there there is no way to get exact numbers


That's not quite correct. Within the abundance of data that airlines and network planners have at their disposal is the 'home city' of passengers based on the zip code attached to the credit card they use for payment or their self-identified frequent flier home base. Thus, airlines do indeed have a pretty good view as to, in this example, leakage from DTW based flyers who choose to drive from Michigan to say ORD or YYZ to originate your travel. Never forget - the network planners have endlessly more data than you could ever even comprehend in your lifetime, and it's for that reason that their conclusions as to what routes will or won't work trump yours. always. remember that.

klm617 wrote:
So that being said can we all agree that EK and EI are definite needs in this market


No, we cannot all agree with that. They're needs if they can be operated profitably, and they clearly can't at present, which is why, again, the routes haven't been launched. The network planners are smarter than you. accept that reality.

klm617 wrote:
Delta plays a shell game with it's capacity in the Detroit market for every add there is a subtraction in.


Your conspiracy theory there has been debunked no less than five times in this thread alone using factual data showing that DL is growing in DTW to a degree that is logical given the economic climate of DTW and the surrounding area. And let's not forget - Delta is essentially the only reason your beloved DTW isn't some forgotten piece of garbage like many of the other ghosts of hubs past in that part of the country.

klm617 wrote:
It even bewilders me that there still is no KLM on AMS-DTW.


It bewilders me that that bewilders you given Delta flies DTWAMS nonstop as many as FOUR TIMES DAILY in the Summer. Again, you should be down on your hands and knees thanking Delta.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:41 am

winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:
The FACTS are the Detroit India market is huge and that has been pointed out by other posters yet you refuse to acknowledge that. The market carries 150 PDEW and that doesn't include those driving to ORD to avoid a 2 stop flight to the smaller cities in India and high fares.


Huge is a relative term. 150 PDEW is not huge within the context of a market's ability to profitably sustain a long-haul route with a widebody aircraft. Accept this fact.

klm617 wrote:
there is no exact science for gauging the amount of leakage that there is to YYZ and ORD. I talk to people almost weekly who are using ORD, YQG and YYZ for their travel options to Europe but there there is no way to get exact numbers


That's not quite correct. Within the abundance of data that airlines and network planners have at their disposal is the 'home city' of passengers based on the zip code attached to the credit card they use for payment or their self-identified frequent flier home base. Thus, airlines do indeed have a pretty good view as to, in this example, leakage from DTW based flyers who choose to drive from Michigan to say ORD or YYZ to originate your travel. Never forget - the network planners have endlessly more data than you could ever even comprehend in your lifetime, and it's for that reason that their conclusions as to what routes will or won't work trump yours. always. remember that.

klm617 wrote:
So that being said can we all agree that EK and EI are definite needs in this market


No, we cannot all agree with that. They're needs if they can be operated profitably, and they clearly can't at present, which is why, again, the routes haven't been launched. The network planners are smarter than you. accept that reality.

klm617 wrote:
Delta plays a shell game with it's capacity in the Detroit market for every add there is a subtraction in.


Your conspiracy theory there has been debunked no less than five times in this thread alone using factual data showing that DL is growing in DTW to a degree that is logical given the economic climate of DTW and the surrounding area. And let's not forget - Delta is essentially the only reason your beloved DTW isn't some forgotten piece of garbage like many of the other ghosts of hubs past in that part of the country.

klm617 wrote:
It even bewilders me that there still is no KLM on AMS-DTW.


It bewilders me that that bewilders you given Delta flies DTWAMS nonstop as many as FOUR TIMES DAILY in the Summer. Again, you should be down on your hands and knees thanking Delta.


We don't know something is profitable unless we try now do we. EI and EK stand a pretty good chance of being profitable.. My guess as to why EK isn't in Detroit yet as they don't want to further eroded their loads on DXB-BOS as Detroit generates a great number of connections on the flight. I got news for you for the most part those driving to YYZ, YQG and ORD are not very likly to be in any FF program.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:03 pm

With all of this conversation about BOM, wouldn’t it make more sense to do DEL since it’s closer and provides connections without backtrack?
Resort, and other ground transportation options are on level 1.

*Future Route Network Planner*
 
winginit
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:14 pm

klm617 wrote:
We don't know something is profitable unless we try now do we.


Your statement is telling as to how little you actually understand about the modeling capabilities of this industry. Airlines absolutely do know, with an impressive degree of accuracy, roughly how profitable a route will be even before they launch it although there are always unforeseeable variables that can come into play.

klm617 wrote:
EI and EK stand a pretty good chance of being profitable.


You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about as usual. Are EI and EK profitable on comparable routes? You don't know. Does their modeling reflect that DTW service would tilt towards profitable? You don't know. How long would it take for them to achieve profitability if it's even possible? You don't know, and you've made abundantly clear in your few years on this forum that you have no access to relevant data or industry experience that backs your statements as anything other than fanboy speculation.

You know who does know? At least far better than you? EI and EK know, and yet they haven't launched the route - so no I'd say EI and EK, at least at present don't stand a 'pretty good chance' of being profitable.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:41 pm

With vanishing evidence there is no point is typing real numbers

DTW-India best bets are
1) Qatar DTW-DOH (with 255 seats QR 788s are better equipped than EK 77L with 302 seats)- Gives one stop to 12 airports
2) AA/BA DTW-LHR - Takes care of DTW-LHR O&D surge pricing and gives access to five Indian cities
3) WOW starting more Indian routes from KEF. Distant possibility but being an LCC 3 weekly to secondary Indian stations will be a market changer.
 
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adamh8297
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:44 pm

klm617 wrote:
My guess as to why EK isn't in Detroit yet as they don't want to further eroded their loads on DXB-BOS as Detroit generates a great number of connections on the flight. I got news for you for the most part those driving to YYZ, YQG and ORD are not very likly to be in any FF program.


I guess if its not DL + ATL depriving DTW of service it must be EK+B6 in BOS/JFK, AS+EK in SEA...etc.
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AF, AM, BA, B6, CO, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, OU, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WN

2018 Flights: B6 BOS-BGI-BOS, WN BOS-MDW-BOS, B6 BOS-PDX-BOS
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:42 pm

Via Air is another carrier that is a perfect fit for KDET along with Onejet and Allegiant.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:46 pm

adamh8297 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
My guess as to why EK isn't in Detroit yet as they don't want to further eroded their loads on DXB-BOS as Detroit generates a great number of connections on the flight. I got news for you for the most part those driving to YYZ, YQG and ORD are not very likly to be in any FF program.


I guess if its not DL + ATL depriving DTW of service it must be EK+B6 in BOS/JFK, AS+EK in SEA...etc.



LOL why would AS+EK over SEA be a threat to DTW getting EK. But I assure you the B6+EK link is because if those Detroit passengers were not routed over FLL and BOS it would have a negative effect on those flights there. BOS has already lost one daily to DXB and needs all the help it can get to maintain reasonable profitability. So between the leakage to ORD and the transfer passengers over BOS and FLL that'a a lot of potential there.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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adamh8297
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:49 pm

klm617 wrote:
BOS has already lost one daily to DXB and needs all the help it can get to maintain reasonable profitability


Oh you have access to EK's books I take it with that statement. What's the RASM on BOS-DXB out of curiosity?
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AF, AM, BA, B6, CO, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, OU, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WN

2018 Flights: B6 BOS-BGI-BOS, WN BOS-MDW-BOS, B6 BOS-PDX-BOS
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:49 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
With vanishing evidence there is no point is typing real numbers

DTW-India best bets are
1) Qatar DTW-DOH (with 255 seats QR 788s are better equipped than EK 77L with 302 seats)- Gives one stop to 12 airports
2) AA/BA DTW-LHR - Takes care of DTW-LHR O&D surge pricing and gives access to five Indian cities
3) WOW starting more Indian routes from KEF. Distant possibility but being an LCC 3 weekly to secondary Indian stations will be a market changer.



Exactly the story only gets told if it's what the masses believe. I had said for along time that QR was the best fit for Detroit but now with the unrest in QR I don't see that happening so we have to go back to EK and hope that they will chose DTW sooner rather than later.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
winginit
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:57 pm

klm617 wrote:
Via Air is another carrier that is a perfect fit for KDET along with Onejet and Allegiant.


Until the city commits to the notable investment required to get that airport operational (which they appear very much not willing to do) what's the value in discussing potential carriers for operation? That's like saying "Hey look at that horribly decrepit building over there do you think it should be a Chipotle or a PF Changs?"

klm617 wrote:
BOS has already lost one daily to DXB and needs all the help it can get to maintain reasonable profitability.


You have absolutely no idea as to the profitability of EK's BOSDXB operation. No solitary clue. That being the case please mark your claim as speculative.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:29 pm

winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Via Air is another carrier that is a perfect fit for KDET along with Onejet and Allegiant.


Until the city commits to the notable investment required to get that airport operational (which they appear very much not willing to do) what's the value in discussing potential carriers for operation? That's like saying "Hey look at that horribly decrepit building over there do you think it should be a Chipotle or a PF Changs?"

klm617 wrote:
BOS has already lost one daily to DXB and needs all the help it can get to maintain reasonable profitability.


You have absolutely no idea as to the profitability of EK's BOSDXB operation. No solitary clue. That being the case please mark your claim as speculative.



Tell that to Ford who just bought the skeleton of a building called Michigan Central Station. We always need dialogue about things even if they seem very unlikely and I don't know why that pains you do you have your hat in the ring some way ? When they cut their capacity in half that a pretty good indicator of how a route is doing I'd say.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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NickolayAv
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:43 pm

klm617 wrote:
BOS has already lost one daily to DXB and needs all the help it can get to maintain reasonable profitability. So between the leakage to ORD and the transfer passengers over BOS and FLL that'a a lot of potential there.

I find it funny how you point out that BOS is the airport that lost frequency and it is in a desperate struggle to maintain profitability, I would think that BOS is the only airport that lost frequency but wait a second, it isn't. FLL and MCO lost their daily frequency along with SEA losing its double daily in addition to BOS. It was a result of a change in the market, and currently, the loads have been improving on a lot of these flights, so much so that Tim Clark says that he is considering returning double daily flights (I do take that with a grain of salt though, it is Tim Clark). I really do not think this is a market that "needs all the help it can get to maintain reasonable profitability" if the loads are doing good, and the president is commenting on increasing service.
dtw2hyd wrote:
We cannot even express why DTW has a chance on DTW thread without others throwing a fit. What a pity.

I visited DTW last summer, gorgeous airport, I decided to follow the thread for a bit, (before I had my account) and very soon I stopped, because certain people get into non-stop arguments with other people. It is okay, to have a favorite airport, and be slightly over-optimistic about the airport. (I am a BOS fanboy) and yes I sometimes make outrageous statements/hopes about the airport, such as I hope BOS might get an SQ SIN-ICN-BOS service, and I realize that it will probably never happen even though I make my claim that it is a large untapped market, but it is okay to be optimistic, but the problem with this thread is not that others throw fits when you express why DTW has a chance, it is that certain people on this thread go ballistic when they're given reasons why the service will likely not happen. I realize that the SQ service will not happen, and I present my evidence that it might happen, but when someone presents reasons and evidence as for why it will not happen, I do not get angry and call him out, I present evidence for my case and so on. On this thread, if I present any counterargument, I am immediately met with anger and hate from others, with absolutely no factual basis to back up their point. Its okay to be hopeful for DTW getting EK service, I hope it does get the service, but when someone gives reasons as for why the airport will not get the service, don't immediately respond with hatred, respond with actual commentary as for why it might happen. Somehow, all other cites aviation threads manage to bring up possible service, and factual evidence (even people from other cities aviation threads), with no fights breaking out as a result. I really hope it ends on this thread, as I would love for there to be a meaningful conversation about what goes on and possible service to the airport, instead of a neverending fight between people.
"If you want to be a millionaire, start with a billion dollars and launch a new airline"-Richard Branson
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:42 pm

NickolayAv wrote:
klm617 wrote:
BOS has already lost one daily to DXB and needs all the help it can get to maintain reasonable profitability. So between the leakage to ORD and the transfer passengers over BOS and FLL that'a a lot of potential there.

I find it funny how you point out that BOS is the airport that lost frequency and it is in a desperate struggle to maintain profitability, I would think that BOS is the only airport that lost frequency but wait a second, it isn't. FLL and MCO lost their daily frequency along with SEA losing its double daily in addition to BOS. It was a result of a change in the market, and currently, the loads have been improving on a lot of these flights, so much so that Tim Clark says that he is considering returning double daily flights (I do take that with a grain of salt though, it is Tim Clark). I really do not think this is a market that "needs all the help it can get to maintain reasonable profitability" if the loads are doing good, and the president is commenting on increasing service.
dtw2hyd wrote:
We cannot even express why DTW has a chance on DTW thread without others throwing a fit. What a pity.

I visited DTW last summer, gorgeous airport, I decided to follow the thread for a bit, (before I had my account) and very soon I stopped, because certain people get into non-stop arguments with other people. It is okay, to have a favorite airport, and be slightly over-optimistic about the airport. (I am a BOS fanboy) and yes I sometimes make outrageous statements/hopes about the airport, such as I hope BOS might get an SQ SIN-ICN-BOS service, and I realize that it will probably never happen even though I make my claim that it is a large untapped market, but it is okay to be optimistic, but the problem with this thread is not that others throw fits when you express why DTW has a chance, it is that certain people on this thread go ballistic when they're given reasons why the service will likely not happen. I realize that the SQ service will not happen, and I present my evidence that it might happen, but when someone presents reasons and evidence as for why it will not happen, I do not get angry and call him out, I present evidence for my case and so on. On this thread, if I present any counterargument, I am immediately met with anger and hate from others, with absolutely no factual basis to back up their point. Its okay to be hopeful for DTW getting EK service, I hope it does get the service, but when someone gives reasons as for why the airport will not get the service, don't immediately respond with hatred, respond with actual commentary as for why it might happen. Somehow, all other cites aviation threads manage to bring up possible service, and factual evidence (even people from other cities aviation threads), with no fights breaking out as a result. I really hope it ends on this thread, as I would love for there to be a meaningful conversation about what goes on and possible service to the airport, instead of a neverending fight between people.



First of all you can't even compare BOS to DTW. BOS gets new service announcements at least once an month DTW gets them maybe one a year. Also BOS has a very proactive airport committee that is constantly out there searching for new service something DTW does not have. One thing you can't deny is that DTW provide a lot of feed to some BOS flights due to the B6 marketing agreement. But the thing that bugs me is EVERYONE takes offense when anyone talks about service enhancements at Detroit and NO ONE ever thinks there is a market here beyond the current service levels. Facts or not that is just not true there is room for lower cost international flight and some dedicated bulk cargo flight but the WCAA seems to be content with surrendering that market to ORD and to a lesser extent YQG and YYZ for whatever reason. We have an almost vacant airport that is ripe for a crago operator to start a base of operations there YIP. There was a trade free zone created called Detroit Aerotroplis but yet since it's inception we don't even have one dedicated bulk cargo carrier. With adequate low cost international service at DTW we could capture traffic from Ontario, Northwest Ohio and Northeast Indiana plus all of Michigan why should we surrender that traffic to ORD when DTW is a more convenient and less crowded option for travelers from this region. So to compare you BOS to DTW is really not a good comparison at all.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:50 pm

Air service announcements this year.
NK- 2 including 3 new routes.
F9- 3 including 3 new routes.
Not to mention DY and EI have intended possible DTW announcements.

Auguast-November should be prime time for an international carrier.
Resort, and other ground transportation options are on level 1.

*Future Route Network Planner*
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:19 pm

flymco753 wrote:
Air service announcements this year.
NK- 2 including 3 new routes.
F9- 3 including 3 new routes.
Not to mention DY and EI have intended possible DTW announcements.

Auguast-November should be prime time for an international carrier.


As far as F9 there was no net gain in departures flights were dropped to add the new services. As far as NK goes one route has already been dropped and the other two are only seasonal meaning maybe there was a net gain of one departure a day but not even really sure of that because there is no online timetable anymore.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
2Holer4Longhaul
Posts: 350
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:28 pm

klm617 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Air service announcements this year.
NK- 2 including 3 new routes.
F9- 3 including 3 new routes.
Not to mention DY and EI have intended possible DTW announcements.

Auguast-November should be prime time for an international carrier.


As far as F9 there was no net gain in departures flights were dropped to add the new services. As far as NK goes one route has already been dropped and the other two are only seasonal meaning maybe there was a net gain of one departure a day but not even really sure of that because there is no online timetable anymore.

Have you counted increases or decreases in frequency before making this statement?
"You know, if you just set out to be liked, you would be prepared to compromise on anything, wouldn't you, at any time? And you would achieve nothing!" - Margaret Thatcher
 
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NickolayAv
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:40 pm

klm617 wrote:
NickolayAv wrote:
klm617 wrote:
BOS has already lost one daily to DXB and needs all the help it can get to maintain reasonable profitability. So between the leakage to ORD and the transfer passengers over BOS and FLL that'a a lot of potential there.

I find it funny how you point out that BOS is the airport that lost frequency and it is in a desperate struggle to maintain profitability, I would think that BOS is the only airport that lost frequency but wait a second, it isn't. FLL and MCO lost their daily frequency along with SEA losing its double daily in addition to BOS. It was a result of a change in the market, and currently, the loads have been improving on a lot of these flights, so much so that Tim Clark says that he is considering returning double daily flights (I do take that with a grain of salt though, it is Tim Clark). I really do not think this is a market that "needs all the help it can get to maintain reasonable profitability" if the loads are doing good, and the president is commenting on increasing service.
dtw2hyd wrote:
We cannot even express why DTW has a chance on DTW thread without others throwing a fit. What a pity.

I visited DTW last summer, gorgeous airport, I decided to follow the thread for a bit, (before I had my account) and very soon I stopped, because certain people get into non-stop arguments with other people. It is okay, to have a favorite airport, and be slightly over-optimistic about the airport. (I am a BOS fanboy) and yes I sometimes make outrageous statements/hopes about the airport, such as I hope BOS might get an SQ SIN-ICN-BOS service, and I realize that it will probably never happen even though I make my claim that it is a large untapped market, but it is okay to be optimistic, but the problem with this thread is not that others throw fits when you express why DTW has a chance, it is that certain people on this thread go ballistic when they're given reasons why the service will likely not happen. I realize that the SQ service will not happen, and I present my evidence that it might happen, but when someone presents reasons and evidence as for why it will not happen, I do not get angry and call him out, I present evidence for my case and so on. On this thread, if I present any counterargument, I am immediately met with anger and hate from others, with absolutely no factual basis to back up their point. Its okay to be hopeful for DTW getting EK service, I hope it does get the service, but when someone gives reasons as for why the airport will not get the service, don't immediately respond with hatred, respond with actual commentary as for why it might happen. Somehow, all other cites aviation threads manage to bring up possible service, and factual evidence (even people from other cities aviation threads), with no fights breaking out as a result. I really hope it ends on this thread, as I would love for there to be a meaningful conversation about what goes on and possible service to the airport, instead of a neverending fight between people.



First of all you can't even compare BOS to DTW. BOS gets new service announcements at least once an month DTW gets them maybe one a year. Also BOS has a very proactive airport committee that is constantly out there searching for new service something DTW does not have. One thing you can't deny is that DTW provide a lot of feed to some BOS flights due to the B6 marketing agreement. But the thing that bugs me is EVERYONE takes offense when anyone talks about service enhancements at Detroit and NO ONE ever thinks there is a market here beyond the current service levels. Facts or not that is just not true there is room for lower cost international flight and some dedicated bulk cargo flight but the WCAA seems to be content with surrendering that market to ORD and to a lesser extent YQG and YYZ for whatever reason. We have an almost vacant airport that is ripe for a crago operator to start a base of operations there YIP. There was a trade free zone created called Detroit Aerotroplis but yet since it's inception we don't even have one dedicated bulk cargo carrier. With adequate low cost international service at DTW we could capture traffic from Ontario, Northwest Ohio and Northeast Indiana plus all of Michigan why should we surrender that traffic to ORD when DTW is a more convenient and less crowded option for travelers from this region. So to compare you BOS to DTW is really not a good comparison at all.

Amazing, I wrote an entire paragraph, mostly directed at you, (I intentionally avoided names, but won't anymore) and yet you completely missed the point of what I was saying. Let's start off with the fact that in the entire paragraph at no point did I compare, DTW airport to BOS airport, the entire paragraph was about the DTW THREAD vs BOS/OTHER CITY'S THREADS (If I did, please quote where I did). I NEVER stated that Detroit does not deserve more service, I very much believe that it does and I do believe that both EI and EK could do good in DTW using certain planes, but you can't accept it when someone gives some reason as to why DTW won't get the service, instead of giving additional evidence, you immediately resort to bashing the person who gave their reasoning. For some reason though, instead of being happy when other airports get new service, you proceed to yell about how DTW deserved the service more and how DTW is so underserved (I'm not arguing that it isn't underserved). Almost everyone on this site is an aviation fan and is happy when a new service is announced to DTW, and doesn't go in and yell how their airport deserved the service more. Additionally, I never stated that DTW should stay at current service levels or that the management isn't at fault, furthermore I do believe that DTW should get more service and management hasn't been doing anything to gain new service, but I'm also an MHT fan, (Manchester-Boston Regional Airport), trust me I have seen what bad management is doing to the airport, and I admit it isn't a pleasant sight, but I do not see anyone from the New England thread bashing any other airport, because they got the service as oposed to MHT. Also, don't pretend as if BOS doesn't bleed some passengers to DTW to certain destinations (notably ICN), because BOS has a lot of SkyMiles loyalists, who will connect to ICN via DTW, because BOS lacks the direct flight, yet I have never seen anyone yell BOS deserves a flight to ICN more than DTW. To summarize, my problem is not with the airport or the management, it is the fact that you are ruining the thread (in some cases the forum too) by hating people who give any reasoning as for why DTW should not get a flight from an airline or spreading hate because another airport got the flight you wanted at DTW.
"If you want to be a millionaire, start with a billion dollars and launch a new airline"-Richard Branson
 
alfa164
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:46 pm

NickolayAv wrote:
...you are ruining the thread...


It took you a long time to get to it... but these five words are all you need to tell the story.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:58 pm

2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
klm617 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Air service announcements this year.
NK- 2 including 3 new routes.
F9- 3 including 3 new routes.
Not to mention DY and EI have intended possible DTW announcements.

Auguast-November should be prime time for an international carrier.


As far as F9 there was no net gain in departures flights were dropped to add the new services. As far as NK goes one route has already been dropped and the other two are only seasonal meaning maybe there was a net gain of one departure a day but not even really sure of that because there is no online timetable anymore.

Have you counted increases or decreases in frequency before making this statement?



Yes F9 Departures have not increased one bit there are either 2 or 3 per day the only thing that changes are the cities it serves.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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Alphazone
Posts: 183
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:08 pm

alfa164 wrote:
NickolayAv wrote:
...you are ruining the thread...


It took you a long time to get to it... but these five words are all you need to tell the story.


That poster actually provides the most information
No conclusion can be offered, for the history recounted above is still unfolding.
 
2Holer4Longhaul
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:10 pm

klm617 wrote:
2Holer4Longhaul wrote:
klm617 wrote:

As far as F9 there was no net gain in departures flights were dropped to add the new services. As far as NK goes one route has already been dropped and the other two are only seasonal meaning maybe there was a net gain of one departure a day but not even really sure of that because there is no online timetable anymore.

Have you counted increases or decreases in frequency before making this statement?



Yes F9 Departures have not increased one bit there are either 2 or 3 per day the only thing that changes are the cities it serves.

So you counted destinations and not frequency. Got it.
"You know, if you just set out to be liked, you would be prepared to compromise on anything, wouldn't you, at any time? And you would achieve nothing!" - Margaret Thatcher
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:51 am

Stop trolling the trolls and ignore the blustering.
Its the same thing you have to do when children act-up.

I find it ironic that no one ever wants to discuss what is actually going on at DTW day in day in, and instead would rather pontificate about what may or may not happen in the next 1-2-5-10-20 years.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:08 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Stop trolling the trolls and ignore the blustering.
Its the same thing you have to do when children act-up.

I find it ironic that no one ever wants to discuss what is actually going on at DTW day in day in, and instead would rather pontificate about what may or may not happen in the next 1-2-5-10-20 years.


I agree, this bickering is getting very old.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:00 am

End of an era? Scheduled MD-88 service on DL ends late this month; scheduled MD-82/83 service on AA ends in August. I’m not exactly a young man but this will be th first time in my lifetime that DTW lacked scheduled passenger MD-80 service.

It appears NK’s mutiyear streak of new service has come to an end. PDX was an absolute dud, pulled literally days after it began - a rare move by NK. And now SAN appears to be struggling — fares on Tuesday and Wednesday regularly sold $39-$59 in May, and are now going for $59-$79 in July (and can be had for much less during promotional periods). Meanwhile DL — which has had to lower fares at LAX to cope with NK’s additional capacity (and the first instance I’ve seen of two OW being cheaper than RT) — has pretty much ignored NK. It’ll be interesting to see if this route returns next year.

DTW-SEA also reverts from year-round to seasonal, although so is every other market sans LAS.

AA has also made some interesting moves. Beginning this fall, every single market is experiencing significant reductions, except for one. MIA is being indefinitely reduced to 2x daily (the third flight didn’t last much longer than DL’s), DFW to 5x daily (partially offset by upgauging) and PHX 2x (was 3-4, depending on the season). Meanwhile, LGA returns mostly to ERJ and ORD loses all mainline (as many as 3 flights featured MD-80 or 738 for the past few years) wereas CLT sees more regional. The sole exception? PHL, which will feature four 319 on its six flights - the most mainline offered by AA/US since 2002.
If you are an American who drives an auto built by a foreign-owned company yet complains about your favorite airline buying Airbus, then you are nothing more than a whiny hypocrite.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:38 am

compensateme wrote:
End of an era? Scheduled MD-88 service on DL ends late this month; scheduled MD-82/83 service on AA ends in August. I’m not exactly a young man but this will be th first time in my lifetime that DTW lacked scheduled passenger MD-80 service.

It appears NK’s mutiyear streak of new service has come to an end. PDX was an absolute dud, pulled literally days after it began - a rare move by NK. And now SAN appears to be struggling — fares on Tuesday and Wednesday regularly sold $39-$59 in May, and are now going for $59-$79 in July (and can be had for much less during promotional periods). Meanwhile DL — which has had to lower fares at LAX to cope with NK’s additional capacity (and the first instance I’ve seen of two OW being cheaper than RT) — has pretty much ignored NK. It’ll be interesting to see if this route returns next year.

DTW-SEA also reverts from year-round to seasonal, although so is every other market sans LAS.

AA has also made some interesting moves. Beginning this fall, every single market is experiencing significant reductions, except for one. MIA is being indefinitely reduced to 2x daily (the third flight didn’t last much longer than DL’s), DFW to 5x daily (partially offset by upgauging) and PHX 2x (was 3-4, depending on the season). Meanwhile, LGA returns mostly to ERJ and ORD loses all mainline (as many as 3 flights featured MD-80 or 738 for the past few years) wereas CLT sees more regional. The sole exception? PHL, which will feature four 319 on its six flights - the most mainline offered by AA/US since 2002.


MD-88 service from DTW ends next month? Really? This is very surprising, no more hearing JT8Ds rocketing out of DTW. Going to be very odd.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:43 am

ikolkyo wrote:
MD-88 service from DTW ends next month? Really? This is very surprising, no more hearing JT8Ds rocketing out of DTW. Going to be very odd.


After the schedule transition on June 30th, there are no more MD-88 scheduled by DL; scheduled MD-82/83 service on AA ends in August. Given the MD-82/82 will be around for another year, and the MD-88 another two years, they could make another appearance but status quo, this fall will be the first time since 1982 (?) DTW hasn’t featured MD-80 service.
If you are an American who drives an auto built by a foreign-owned company yet complains about your favorite airline buying Airbus, then you are nothing more than a whiny hypocrite.
 
727LOVER
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:41 am

compensateme wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
MD-88 service from DTW ends next month? Really? This is very surprising, no more hearing JT8Ds rocketing out of DTW. Going to be very odd.


After the schedule transition on June 30th, there are no more MD-88 scheduled by DL; scheduled MD-82/83 service on AA ends in August. Given the MD-82/82 will be around for another year, and the MD-88 another two years, they could make another appearance but status quo, this fall will be the first time since 1982 (?) DTW hasn’t featured MD-80 service.



I'm quite shocked that it's ending this early. Guess they are shifting the flights to ATL (I know certain folks don't want to hear that!) Does DL still have any @ MSP?
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:56 am

compensateme wrote:
End of an era? Scheduled MD-88 service on DL ends late this month; scheduled MD-82/83 service on AA ends in August. I’m not exactly a young man but this will be th first time in my lifetime that DTW lacked scheduled passenger MD-80 service.

It appears NK’s mutiyear streak of new service has come to an end. PDX was an absolute dud, pulled literally days after it began - a rare move by NK. And now SAN appears to be struggling — fares on Tuesday and Wednesday regularly sold $39-$59 in May, and are now going for $59-$79 in July (and can be had for much less during promotional periods). Meanwhile DL — which has had to lower fares at LAX to cope with NK’s additional capacity (and the first instance I’ve seen of two OW being cheaper than RT) — has pretty much ignored NK. It’ll be interesting to see if this route returns next year.

DTW-SEA also reverts from year-round to seasonal, although so is every other market sans LAS.

AA has also made some interesting moves. Beginning this fall, every single market is experiencing significant reductions, except for one. MIA is being indefinitely reduced to 2x daily (the third flight didn’t last much longer than DL’s), DFW to 5x daily (partially offset by upgauging) and PHX 2x (was 3-4, depending on the season). Meanwhile, LGA returns mostly to ERJ and ORD loses all mainline (as many as 3 flights featured MD-80 or 738 for the past few years) wereas CLT sees more regional. The sole exception? PHL, which will feature four 319 on its six flights - the most mainline offered by AA/US since 2002.


So what aircraft is Delta replacing the MD80 with on the routes that they were flown.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:48 am

Interesting. I am sure the MD-88 will still make an appearance from time to time probably on an ATL turn.

The MD-88 was never really that big at DTW post merger anyways. Maybe peaked at around 20 flights a day a few years ago. Lately it’s really only been on a few of the ORD, BWI, PHL, BNA, ATL, STL flights. Most of it’s gone to MD90 or A320.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:56 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Stop trolling the trolls and ignore the blustering.
Its the same thing you have to do when children act-up.

I find it ironic that no one ever wants to discuss what is actually going on at DTW day in day in, and instead would rather pontificate about what may or may not happen in the next 1-2-5-10-20 years.



I would be happy talking about what's going on at the airport but the only problem with that is that there is nothing significant going on ever except an exotic visitor every now and then. The airport is so tight lipped about what they are working on unlike other airports that are forth coming about what they are trying to achieve. The last time the airport went public about anything they are working on was the Dubai petition eons ago. If you want to talk about new taxi way signs or repaving of a runway cool but that in no way peaks my interest I need a little more excitement than that to peak my interest. I have tried to talk about what's going on with the WCAA but no one wants to talk about that objectively for some reason. So let's talk about what's going on at the airport and what the WCAA is actively working as far as growth, what carriers are they pursuing what airline HQ have they visited and who have they invited to come and tour DTW and the city of Detroit and the surrounding areas. The title of the thread is Detroit air service discussion.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
lavalampluva
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:16 pm

727LOVER wrote:
compensateme wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
MD-88 service from DTW ends next month? Really? This is very surprising, no more hearing JT8Ds rocketing out of DTW. Going to be very odd.


After the schedule transition on June 30th, there are no more MD-88 scheduled by DL; scheduled MD-82/83 service on AA ends in August. Given the MD-82/82 will be around for another year, and the MD-88 another two years, they could make another appearance but status quo, this fall will be the first time since 1982 (?) DTW hasn’t featured MD-80 service.



I'm quite shocked that it's ending this early. Guess they are shifting the flights to ATL (I know certain folks don't want to hear that!) Does DL still have any @ MSP?


Out of MSP they are flown to DSM/OMA/ATL.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:14 pm

The A321 seems to be coming in fast with service to ATL, RSW, MCO, SAN, LAX, BOS, DCA, SFO, LAS and PHX. If the schedule sticks for winter there should be a ton of A321 and 757 movement.
Resort, and other ground transportation options are on level 1.

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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:47 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Interesting. I am sure the MD-88 will still make an appearance from time to time probably on an ATL turn.

The MD-88 was never really that big at DTW post merger anyways. Maybe peaked at around 20 flights a day a few years ago. Lately it’s really only been on a few of the ORD, BWI, PHL, BNA, ATL, STL flights. Most of it’s gone to MD90 or A320.


Actuall, the MD-88 was the most common mainline type for several years — from 2011 until 2014 or 2015. From memory, the MD-88 operated greater than a 1/3 of the mainline movements in 2011 and 2012, including the lion’s share of flights to LGA and DCA.

DL’s mainline fleet was short handed in 2011-2012 — after the DC-9s were retired but before the 717, additional M90 and 739 arrived on property. At one point, DL scheduled DTW/SFO with the MD-88 but changed it shortly before service was to be launched.
If you are an American who drives an auto built by a foreign-owned company yet complains about your favorite airline buying Airbus, then you are nothing more than a whiny hypocrite.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:17 pm

Hmm, I guess it did creep up there a bit, from the FSDan hub count departure threads:

DTW (2012)

ER4: 16
CRJ: 262
CR7: 45
CR9: 44
E70: 1
E75: 17
D95: 8
319: 24
320: 31
M88: 23
M90: 4
738: 23
752: 25
753: 9
763: 6
764: 3
332: 2
333: 4
777: 3
77L: 1
744: 2

DTW (2014)

ER4: 37
CR2: 172
CR7: 43
CR9: 45
E70: 1
E75: 11
717: 18
M88: 28
M90: 13
319: 39
320: 21
738: 10
739: 9
752: 19
753: 1
763: 8
764: 2
333: 4
777: 3
77L: 3
744: 2
 
beerbus
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:58 pm

I know this isn't DTW air service.... But the MD-88's have moved south from DTW to the IND-ATL market.

There are now 10 daily DL IND-ATL R/T's. (ex 6,7)

9 MD88's, 1 MD90.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:53 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Hmm, I guess it did creep up there a bit, from the FSDan hub count departure threads:2


Keep in mind these are summer numbers. For several years after the merger, DL averaged only ~140 mainline movements a day (outside the peak summer months) and for awhile, the MD-88 would operate 35-40 of them. It was the most common fleet type to most business markets east of Denver (the 319 held this honor during the summer) and even performed many of the flights to Florida and some Cancun.
If you are an American who drives an auto built by a foreign-owned company yet complains about your favorite airline buying Airbus, then you are nothing more than a whiny hypocrite.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:16 pm

YTD growth went from nearly -2% recovering to +0.5% in April '18. Growth this year will probably look like 0.5-0.25% which is not bad considering there's only 1 airline with exponential growth, NK.
Resort, and other ground transportation options are on level 1.

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klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:42 pm

flymco753 wrote:
YTD growth went from nearly -2% recovering to +0.5% in April '18. Growth this year will probably look like 0.5-0.25% which is not bad considering there's only 1 airline with exponential growth, NK.



That's pretty anemic growth for a major hub with a commercial aviation industry that is growing in leeps and bounds. I think we are about to see the Spirit growth come to an end as out of all the announcements there was really nothing significant added at DTW. Not to mention Detroit just took another hit with the announcement of MSP-ICN. So expect negative numbers going forward my friends unless the airport authority sharpens their pencils like the people who run the airport in MSP at landing new MSP-ICN flights. Detroit is going to further slip in the airport rankings as more service is moved away from Detroit to Atlanta and now to MSP. Somebody posted that Delta is now running 10 MD88 flights between IND and ATL now most logical connections for Indianapolis are over Detroit and from what I can tell there is only one mainline and a bunch of RJs now if that isn't manipulating traffic flow I don't what is.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:56 pm

klm617 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
YTD growth went from nearly -2% recovering to +0.5% in April '18. Growth this year will probably look like 0.5-0.25% which is not bad considering there's only 1 airline with exponential growth, NK.



That's pretty anemic growth for a major hub with a commercial aviation industry that is growing in leeps and bounds. I think we are about to see the Spirit growth come to an end as out of all the announcements there was really nothing significant added at DTW. Not to mention Detroit just took another hit with the announcement of MSP-ICN. So expect negative numbers going forward my friends unless the airport authority sharpens their pencils like the people who run the airport in MSP at landing new MSP-ICN flights. Detroit is going to further slip in the airport rankings as more service is moved away from Detroit to Atlanta and now to MSP. Somebody posted that Delta is now running 10 MD88 flights between IND and ATL now most logical connections for Indianapolis are over Detroit and from what I can tell there is only one mainline and a bunch of RJs now if that isn't manipulating traffic flow I don't what is.
Delta is reducing connections while O&D explodes. This is DL's way of keeping the same amount of planes flying in and out of DTW without having to reduce frequency, so in essence it's a really good thing. Still more ASM's than MSP by a long mile.

Spirit might not be done, this PBI add is very solid and it only quantifies DTW's seasonal network even more.

TBH, MSP probably wanted ICN, but it was in Delta's plans. Delta has it in writing somewhere that they intended to start this route. Right now there's really no logical international add that would come from O&D other than BCN and DUB, however, they are both very leisure as opposed to business. Running a 76W on either route isn't feasible. There's not a lot of cargo either so these routes would have to be 75W's, in which DL doesn't have enough of atm. DL could do a Saturday SJO and AUA, maaaaaybe SXM but that's really it. Domestically, yes there's a lot of ground to catch up on in terms of un-served markets. SJC and ELP in particular need to be tackled at least by next year by DL.
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kavok
Posts: 350
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:38 am

flymco753 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
YTD growth went from nearly -2% recovering to +0.5% in April '18. Growth this year will probably look like 0.5-0.25% which is not bad considering there's only 1 airline with exponential growth, NK.



That's pretty anemic growth for a major hub with a commercial aviation industry that is growing in leeps and bounds. I think we are about to see the Spirit growth come to an end as out of all the announcements there was really nothing significant added at DTW. Not to mention Detroit just took another hit with the announcement of MSP-ICN. So expect negative numbers going forward my friends unless the airport authority sharpens their pencils like the people who run the airport in MSP at landing new MSP-ICN flights. Detroit is going to further slip in the airport rankings as more service is moved away from Detroit to Atlanta and now to MSP. Somebody posted that Delta is now running 10 MD88 flights between IND and ATL now most logical connections for Indianapolis are over Detroit and from what I can tell there is only one mainline and a bunch of RJs now if that isn't manipulating traffic flow I don't what is.
Delta is reducing connections while O&D explodes. This is DL's way of keeping the same amount of planes flying in and out of DTW without having to reduce frequency, so in essence it's a really good thing. Still more ASM's than MSP by a long mile.

Spirit might not be done, this PBI add is very solid and it only quantifies DTW's seasonal network even more.

TBH, MSP probably wanted ICN, but it was in Delta's plans. Delta has it in writing somewhere that they intended to start this route. Right now there's really no logical international add that would come from O&D other than BCN and DUB, however, they are both very leisure as opposed to business. Running a 76W on either route isn't feasible. There's not a lot of cargo either so these routes would have to be 75W's, in which DL doesn't have enough of atm. DL could do a Saturday SJO and AUA, maaaaaybe SXM but that's really it. Domestically, yes there's a lot of ground to catch up on in terms of un-served markets. SJC and ELP in particular need to be tackled at least by next year by DL.


I completely agree about the SJC and ELP adds. Those seem like no brainers, and the WCAA needs to do what they can to nudge those additions along. I would guess they would be profitable, but they probably some collateral is needed to get DL to roll the dice on them.

As for other domestic adds, there are several Northeastern markets that either once had service, or are just getting commercial service that could be valuable adds. Yes they would be RJs, but still solid pickups. (BGR, ORH, HVN, etc).
 
winginit
Posts: 1538
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:16 am

klm617 wrote:
Detroit is going to further slip in the airport rankings as more service is moved away from Detroit to Atlanta and now to MSP.


I must have missed the part of the Delta announcement where they said that DTW-ICN capacity would be reduced as a result of the MSP-ICN add? DL didn't launch MSP-ICN because the MSP airport is working any harder than DTW - they added it because it's a logical add from a hub given the benefits of the JV with KE. Naturally you would have preferred that MSP be snubbed in favor of double daily from DTW or something foolish like that, but even you can agree I'm sure that MSP is a logical add here.
 
winginit
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:26 am

klm617 wrote:
That's pretty anemic growth for a major hub with a commercial aviation industry that is growing in leeps and bounds.


Respectfully, that 'anemic growth' trends with both the GDP and Population growth of metro Detroit, which pale in comparison to most other cities with major hubs as I'm sure you're well aware. Not sure how you're choosing to quantify a DTW commercial aviation industry that's growing 'leaps and bounds'.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:29 am

winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Detroit is going to further slip in the airport rankings as more service is moved away from Detroit to Atlanta and now to MSP.


I must have missed the part of the Delta announcement where they said that DTW-ICN capacity would be reduced as a result of the MSP-ICN add? DL didn't launch MSP-ICN because the MSP airport is working any harder than DTW - they added it because it's a logical add from a hub given the benefits of the JV with KE. Naturally you would have preferred that MSP be snubbed in favor of double daily from DTW or something foolish like that, but even you can agree I'm sure that MSP is a logical add here.


I would agree yes but you also have to agree that with everyone of these adds Detroit's relevance slips just a little bit more. Detroit is the only hub that is regressing in the Delta system with now real service enhancements at all. With this new JV between KE and DL one would thing that a KE flight between DTW and ICN would also be the next logical add. DTW was reduced from a 744 to an A350. Every hub is getting increased connections except DTW. SLC, MSP, JFK and ATL have all seen notable adds while Detroit get's reduced to feed these other adds. DTW-AMS isn't even 4 daily any more and is on par with the AMS-MSP capacity further diverting passengers away from connecting in Detroit. This airport is fading fast and it is no longer a priority in the Delta system for enhancements
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
Posts: 2948
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:32 am

winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:
That's pretty anemic growth for a major hub with a commercial aviation industry that is growing in leeps and bounds.


Respectfully, that 'anemic growth' trends with both the GDP and Population growth of metro Detroit, which pale in comparison to most other cities with major hubs as I'm sure you're well aware. Not sure how you're choosing to quantify a DTW commercial aviation industry that's growing 'leaps and bounds'.


Actually you're wrong the region is one of the fastest growing economically. Please provide data about the tri county area to back that statement up. Obviously you are not from the Detroit area.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
Posts: 2948
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:38 am

kavok wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
klm617 wrote:


That's pretty anemic growth for a major hub with a commercial aviation industry that is growing in leeps and bounds. I think we are about to see the Spirit growth come to an end as out of all the announcements there was really nothing significant added at DTW. Not to mention Detroit just took another hit with the announcement of MSP-ICN. So expect negative numbers going forward my friends unless the airport authority sharpens their pencils like the people who run the airport in MSP at landing new MSP-ICN flights. Detroit is going to further slip in the airport rankings as more service is moved away from Detroit to Atlanta and now to MSP. Somebody posted that Delta is now running 10 MD88 flights between IND and ATL now most logical connections for Indianapolis are over Detroit and from what I can tell there is only one mainline and a bunch of RJs now if that isn't manipulating traffic flow I don't what is.
Delta is reducing connections while O&D explodes. This is DL's way of keeping the same amount of planes flying in and out of DTW without having to reduce frequency, so in essence it's a really good thing. Still more ASM's than MSP by a long mile.

Spirit might not be done, this PBI add is very solid and it only quantifies DTW's seasonal network even more.




TBH, MSP probably wanted ICN, but it was in Delta's plans. Delta has it in writing somewhere that they intended to start this route. Right now there's really no logical international add that would come from O&D other than BCN and DUB, however, they are both very leisure as opposed to business. Running a 76W on either route isn't feasible. There's not a lot of cargo either so these routes would have to be 75W's, in which DL doesn't have enough of atm. DL could do a Saturday SJO and AUA, maaaaaybe SXM but that's really it. Domestically, yes there's a lot of ground to catch up on in terms of un-served markets. SJC and ELP in particular need to be tackled at least by next year by DL.





I completely agree about the SJC and ELP adds. Those seem like no brainers, and the WCAA needs to do what they can to nudge those additions along. I would guess they would be profitable, but they probably some collateral is needed to get DL to roll the dice on them.

As for other domestic adds, there are several Northeastern markets that either once had service, or are just getting commercial service that could be valuable adds. Yes they would be RJs, but still solid pickups. (BGR, ORH, HVN, etc).





I would add SMF and ANC to that list too. If Delta doesn't want to do SJC-DTW if I were the WCAA I would be knocking on the AS door to get these cities linked. Move one MSP-ANC rotation to DTW and reduce ATL-ANC to a 757
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...

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