nomorerjs
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:57 am

klm617 wrote:
winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:
That's pretty anemic growth for a major hub with a commercial aviation industry that is growing in leeps and bounds.


Respectfully, that 'anemic growth' trends with both the GDP and Population growth of metro Detroit, which pale in comparison to most other cities with major hubs as I'm sure you're well aware. Not sure how you're choosing to quantify a DTW commercial aviation industry that's growing 'leaps and bounds'.


Actually you're wrong the region is one of the fastest growing economically. Please provide data about the tri county area to back that statement up. Obviously you are not from the Detroit area.


Are you sure? Please provide statistics instead of opinions.

http://www.dailydetroit.com/2017/10/03/ ... th-nation/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_Detroit

Chicago is deteriorating and has crime (per capit less than Detroit), but is gaining flights. We know it is all leakage from DTW.

https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/blog/ ... ate-cities

https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/pictures/mu ... -s-cities/

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/25 ... ss-AAsxtw1

http://www.thetradingreport.com/2013/02 ... t-believe/
 
jordanh
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:06 am

nomorerjs wrote:
klm617 wrote:
winginit wrote:
Respectfully, that 'anemic growth' trends with both the GDP and Population growth of metro Detroit, which pale in comparison to most other cities with major hubs as I'm sure you're well aware. Not sure how you're choosing to quantify a DTW commercial aviation industry that's growing 'leaps and bounds'.

Actually you're wrong the region is one of the fastest growing economically. Please provide data about the tri county area to back that statement up. Obviously you are not from the Detroit area.

Are you sure? Please provide statistics instead of opinions.
http://www.dailydetroit.com/2017/10/03/ ... th-nation/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_Detroit/


I am not sure why statistics are so important to some people. Aren't daydreams, conspiracy theories, and personal obsessions more meaningful in the long run? ;)

nomorerjs wrote:


You are actually using facts on the DTW forum - that is cheating! :roll:
Last edited by jordanh on Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:11 am

Ignore, ignore, ignore.....

Sorry you are so butthurt about MSP-ICN, but even a 5 year old could see that route coming a mile away. It’s been galley gossip for at least 5 years, back when DL and KE were still just frienemies in SkyTeam.

No kidding they reduced capacity by going from 744 to A350. The 744s were going away no matter what and yes the somewhat reduced capacity helps make the case a bit better for MSP-ICN.

I guarantee the MAC at MSP had almost nothing to do with getting ICN service. You place far too much importance of air service success or failure on airport administrations.

No airline is DTW-centric. They will all do what is best for their network and ultimately what makes the most business sense.

Oh and your rediculous claim about ATL-IND, that route has been 10-12x mainline per day for years that is nothing new. Someone made a comment that is mostly MD-88 now, never mind the fact it’s been comparable mainline equipment including used to be are a lot 757 and 767s and somehow you make an absurd claim that DL suddenly stealing traffic from DTW?

Thanks for continuing to make DTW the biggest joke of a.net.
 
winginit
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:13 am

klm617 wrote:
Actually you're wrong the region is one of the fastest growing economically. Please provide data about the tri county area to back that statement up. Obviously you are not from the Detroit area.


Is it now? Oh this should be good. Graph below, with the data source being the United States Census Bureau - let's tackle population first then we'll go into GDP metrics.

Image

So there's population, and it's clear that the Detroit metro area isn't even in the growth discussion compared to many of the cities on that graph. Now let's talk Economic growth shall we? Wait... now wait just a minute... can you go ahead and read this article linked below for me? Go ahead and read it out loud for the class it's from October of 2017:

Detroit has among the slowest economic growth in the nation

Want to dive even deeper? Check out this pdf, which is a comprehensive view of the entire country. Tri County Detroit, per page 16 of that .pdf, shows a GDP percentage change of 2.1%. That's not. even. close. to being one of the fastest growing. Not even close. For comparison, Dallas is at 3.0%, Miami at 2.6%, Nashville at 3.4% San Francisco at 5.4% and so on and so forth. In fact, and wait for it this is where it gets good, in that final column you'll see that the Detroit metro tri-county region is the ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY SECOND fastest growing by GDP change. So no, it is most definitely not one of the fastest growing economic regions. Not. even. close.

So again... you're wrong. There's my data - feel free to present your own that concludes differently. Good luck!
Last edited by winginit on Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:26 am, edited 4 times in total.
 
nomorerjs
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:17 am

jordanh wrote:
nomorerjs wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Actually you're wrong the region is one of the fastest growing economically. Please provide data about the tri county area to back that statement up. Obviously you are not from the Detroit area.

Are you sure? Please provide statistics instead of opinions.
http://www.dailydetroit.com/2017/10/03/ ... th-nation/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_Detroit/


I am not sure why statistics are so important to some people. Aren't daydreams more meaningful in the long run? ;)

nomorerjs wrote:


You are actually using facts on the DTW forum - that is cheating! :roll:


I’m from the Midwest and love Michigan! Just tired of one or two people destroying this forum. I try to stay out of this thread, but the lunacy of some posters requires a rebuttal.
 
nomorerjs
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:21 am

One person has single handedly deligitimalized this thread and forum. Read the other posts, it’s a joke here. Yet the mods lets this nonsense continue.

Please ban / block said user for the summer and I bet it gets back to reality!
 
nomorerjs
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:23 am

winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Actually you're wrong the region is one of the fastest growing economically. Please provide data about the tri county area to back that statement up. Obviously you are not from the Detroit area.


Is it now? Oh this should be good. Graph below, with the data source being the United States Census Bureau:

Image

So there's population. Now let's talk Economic growth shall we? Wait... now wait just a minute... can you go ahead and read this article linked below for me? Go ahead and read it out loud for the class it's from October of 2017:

Detroit has among the slowest economic growth in the nation

So again... you're wrong. There's my data - feel free to present your own that concludes differently. Good luck!


I posted that earlier with no response. It’s all emotion and BS with this poster. Facts / reality don’t matter.

Read the DL to India thread. Blasts ATL and NYC as failures 10 years ago and says DTW is only logical, disregarding changing dynamics. Then read the SMF thread where DTW failed 10 years ago, but the market has changed and now it’s an untapped cash cow. It’s a one-way homer bias not set in reality.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:43 am

klm617 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
YTD growth went from nearly -2% recovering to +0.5% in April '18. Growth this year will probably look like 0.5-0.25% which is not bad considering there's only 1 airline with exponential growth, NK.



That's pretty anemic growth for a major hub with a commercial aviation industry that is growing in leeps and bounds. I think we are about to see the Spirit growth come to an end as out of all the announcements there was really nothing significant added at DTW. Not to mention Detroit just took another hit with the announcement of MSP-ICN. So expect negative numbers going forward my friends unless the airport authority sharpens their pencils like the people who run the airport in MSP at landing new MSP-ICN flights. Detroit is going to further slip in the airport rankings as more service is moved away from Detroit to Atlanta and now to MSP. Somebody posted that Delta is now running 10 MD88 flights between IND and ATL now most logical connections for Indianapolis are over Detroit and from what I can tell there is only one mainline and a bunch of RJs now if that isn't manipulating traffic flow I don't what is.


Huh?

You have no idea what you are talking about. The funny thing is Delta is increasing service this summer on IND-DTW, the mainline last July was 1xB717 this July it is 1x757.
DL DM, AA Gold 2018: AMS, ATL, AUS, BOS, BWI, CDG, CLT, CMN, DCA, DFW, DTW, DXB, EWR, FLL, FRA, HAV, HPN, JFK, JNB, IAD, IAH, IND, LAX, LGA, LHR, LOS, MAD, MCO, MIA, MSP, ORD, PBI, PHL, PVD, SAN, SEA, SJD, SLC, SFO, STL, TPA, TXL, ZRH....Loading....
 
ADrum23
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:46 am

Based on the above numbers and general socio-economic trends, DTW should be lucky they even have the level of service they have.......
 
nomorerjs
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:56 am

Midwestindy wrote:
klm617 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
YTD growth went from nearly -2% recovering to +0.5% in April '18. Growth this year will probably look like 0.5-0.25% which is not bad considering there's only 1 airline with exponential growth, NK.



That's pretty anemic growth for a major hub with a commercial aviation industry that is growing in leeps and bounds. I think we are about to see the Spirit growth come to an end as out of all the announcements there was really nothing significant added at DTW. Not to mention Detroit just took another hit with the announcement of MSP-ICN. So expect negative numbers going forward my friends unless the airport authority sharpens their pencils like the people who run the airport in MSP at landing new MSP-ICN flights. Detroit is going to further slip in the airport rankings as more service is moved away from Detroit to Atlanta and now to MSP. Somebody posted that Delta is now running 10 MD88 flights between IND and ATL now most logical connections for Indianapolis are over Detroit and from what I can tell there is only one mainline and a bunch of RJs now if that isn't manipulating traffic flow I don't what is.


Huh?

You have no idea what you are talking about. The funny thing is Delta is increasing service this summer on IND-DTW, the mainline last July was 1xB717 this July it is 1x757.


Look who you’re dealing with. Reality doesn’t phase this poster. It’s all DTW all the time or a conspiracy that DL and Wayne County have, it’s leakage to YYZ and ORD (but not MDW for some reason, even though it’s closer to DTW), or Trump / Obama / Bush/ Clinton’s fault!
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:12 am

ADrum23 wrote:
Based on the above numbers and general socio-economic trends, DTW should be lucky they even have the level of service they have.......


...from the guy who previously posted that you thought DL errored in judgement in “choosing” DTW over CVG. You know — how silly of DL to “choose” the hub generating 3.5x the local traffic and nearly 4x the local revenue!

Not to mention Chicago’s numbers are even worse, and it has a far larger amount of air service for its size and worse yields on average that DTW. I challenge you to post your comments in one of the many threads discussing ORD’s “well needed” expansion.
If you are an American who drives an auto built by a foreign-owned company yet complains about your favorite airline buying Airbus, then you are nothing more than a whiny hypocrite.
 
cvgComair
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:46 am

compensateme wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
Based on the above numbers and general socio-economic trends, DTW should be lucky they even have the level of service they have.......


...from the guy who previously posted that you thought DL errored in judgement in “choosing” DTW over CVG. You know — how silly of DL to “choose” the hub generating 3.5x the local traffic and nearly 4x the local revenue!

Not to mention Chicago’s numbers are even worse, and it has a far larger amount of air service for its size and worse yields on average that DTW. I challenge you to post your comments in one of the many threads discussing ORD’s “well needed” expansion.

Oh god, here we go again...
Next: BGR-LGA (Delta CRJ-200), LGA-CVG (Delta CRJ-900)
DL SM, A319/320/332/333, B712/722/732/733/738/739/752/753/763/764/772/773/788, CRJ-100/2/7/9, ERJ-145/75, MD-88/90, S340
 
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:14 am

cvgComair wrote:
Oh god, here we go again...


Yeah, yeah I know how you feel — all lies, the real reason is Richard Anderson’s love affair with DTW. Even though DL’s postbankrupcy plans were to grow ATL, NYC and SLC while remaining ”capacity neutral.”

Just like the CLE fan boys insist UA made the decision to close IAD, but Jeff Semisk stunned the BOD and everyone else by changing it to CLE during the announcement.

I guess we live in a world of alternative facts...
If you are an American who drives an auto built by a foreign-owned company yet complains about your favorite airline buying Airbus, then you are nothing more than a whiny hypocrite.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:52 am

Per Forbes and last I checked Grand Rapids is in Michigan the biggest mistake people make is looking at the city of Detroit it's self which in no way reflects the growth in this region and that has be repeated over and over again. That's like saying that traffic adds at ORD should be purely based on well the South Side of Chicago is doing. If you're going to post facts let them show the true picture not just what you want people to believe.

Surpassing all other large metropolitan regions in terms of getting more of its workforce back on the job was Grand Rapids, Michigan, which includes the municipality of Wyoming, Michigan. The Rapid City economy grew by 4.4% between 2015 and 2016, according to the BLS. To put that in perspective, the U.S. as a whole saw employment grow by about 1.7% over that same time period.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:23 am

winginit wrote:
Want to dive even deeper? Check out this pdf, which is a comprehensive view of the entire country. Tri County Detroit, per page 16 of that .pdf, shows a GDP percentage change of 2.1%. That's not. even. close. to being one of the fastest growing. Not even close. For comparison, Dallas is at 3.0%, Miami at 2.6%, Nashville at 3.4% San Francisco at 5.4% and so on and so forth. In fact, and wait for it this is where it gets good, in that final column you'll see that the Detroit metro tri-county region is the ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY SECOND fastest growing by GDP change. So no, it is most definitely not one of the fastest growing economic regions. Not. even. close.

So again... you're wrong. There's my data - feel free to present your own that concludes differently. Good luck!


Beverly Hall must be so proud of you.

$1 Million to $2 Million - +$1 Million, 100% growth
$1 Billion to $1.1 Billion - +$100 Million 10% growth

By your logic, $1 Million addition to GDP is better than $100 Million.

DTW catchment is not just Tri-County, it includes Michigan, parts of Ohio and Windsor, CA.
 
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Alphazone
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:35 am

winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Actually you're wrong the region is one of the fastest growing economically. Please provide data about the tri county area to back that statement up. Obviously you are not from the Detroit area.


Is it now? Oh this should be good. Graph below, with the data source being the United States Census Bureau - let's tackle population first then we'll go into GDP metrics.

Image

So there's population, and it's clear that the Detroit metro area isn't even in the growth discussion compared to many of the cities on that graph. Now let's talk Economic growth shall we? Wait... now wait just a minute... can you go ahead and read this article linked below for me? Go ahead and read it out loud for the class it's from October of 2017:

Detroit has among the slowest economic growth in the nation

Want to dive even deeper? Check out this pdf, which is a comprehensive view of the entire country. Tri County Detroit, per page 16 of that .pdf, shows a GDP percentage change of 2.1%. That's not. even. close. to being one of the fastest growing. Not even close. For comparison, Dallas is at 3.0%, Miami at 2.6%, Nashville at 3.4% San Francisco at 5.4% and so on and so forth. In fact, and wait for it this is where it gets good, in that final column you'll see that the Detroit metro tri-county region is the ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY SECOND fastest growing by GDP change. So no, it is most definitely not one of the fastest growing economic regions. Not. even. close.

So again... you're wrong. There's my data - feel free to present your own that concludes differently. Good luck!


Do you think that airlines decide their plans based on "economic growth" of a city, so if an area shows no "economic growth" they will dismantle their existing infrastructure there?
No conclusion can be offered, for the history recounted above is still unfolding.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:41 pm

[
nomorerjs wrote:
winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Actually you're wrong the region is one of the fastest growing economically. Please provide data about the tri county area to back that statement up. Obviously you are not from the Detroit area.


Is it now? Oh this should be good. Graph below, with the data source being the United States Census Bureau:

Image

So there's population. Now let's talk Economic growth shall we? Wait... now wait just a minute... can you go ahead and read this article linked below for me? Go ahead and read it out loud for the class it's from October of 2017:

Detroit has among the slowest economic growth in the nation

So again... you're wrong. There's my data - feel free to present your own that concludes differently. Good luck!


I posted that earlier with no response. It’s all emotion and BS with this poster. Facts / reality don’t matter.

Read the DL to India thread. Blasts ATL and NYC as failures 10 years ago and says DTW is only logical, disregarding changing dynamics. Then read the SMF thread where DTW failed 10 years ago, but the market has changed and now it’s an untapped cash cow. It’s a one-way homer bias not set in reality.



First of all Delta doesn't even feel it can compete in the New York Tokyo market to business powerhouse cities with zero ME3 low fare competition and a lot of high yielding traffic but yet everyone thinks it can compete in the NYC-India market which is for the most part low yielding not to mention laden with ME3 low fare competition of course DTW is a better place to launch a Mumbai flight it is wide open to do and charge what it wants with ZERO competition. If it can't make Toyko work from New York what chance do you think India has.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
jordanh
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:07 pm

klm617 wrote:
First of all Delta doesn't even feel it can compete in the New York Tokyo market to business powerhouse cities with zero ME3 low fare competition and a lot of high yielding traffic but yet everyone thinks it can compete in the NYC-India market which is for the most part low yielding not to mention laden with ME3 low fare competition of course DTW is a better place to launch a Mumbai flight it is wide open to do and charge what it wants with ZERO competition. If it can't make Toyko work from New York what chance do you think India has.


But this is what you posted on the new-flight-to-Mumbai-thread:

klm617 wrote:
We all know the runing is between ATL and JFK.


So if we all know the running is between ATL and JFK... why do you keep arguing about DTW. It is done. Over. And you just keep beating a dead horse.

Why not talk aboutr something that is impossible... instead of continuing to look like a chicken running in circles with his head cut off?
 
nmdrdh787
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:25 pm

compensateme wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
Based on the above numbers and general socio-economic trends, DTW should be lucky they even have the level of service they have.......


...from the guy who previously posted that you thought DL errored in judgement in “choosing” DTW over CVG. You know — how silly of DL to “choose” the hub generating 3.5x the local traffic and nearly 4x the local revenue!

Not to mention Chicago’s numbers are even worse, and it has a far larger amount of air service for its size and worse yields on average that DTW. I challenge you to post your comments in one of the many threads discussing ORD’s “well needed” expansion.


ORD is more important than DTW... sorry to break it to you. Would love to see you debunk that with some actual MIDT or Sabre numbers instead of some baseless facts, especially as I am a former consultant that worked extremely hard to help to get ORD most of its new service this year and last. I'll let the route announcements and new tails at ORD do the talking for me.

ORD is a large international air cargo port (one of the top ones if not #1 depending on how you look at it), has a larger O&D base, is somewhat stable even though our government is a joke and people are leaving. Just some of the examples.

As I mentioned in the DL & Mumbai thread: DL has a smart network planning and revenue management department that is not hellbent on screwing DTW. It all has to do with numbers.....

klm617 wrote:
Per Forbes and last I checked Grand Rapids is in Michigan the biggest mistake people make is looking at the city of Detroit it's self which in no way reflects the growth in this region and that has be repeated over and over again. That's like saying that traffic adds at ORD should be purely based on well the South Side of Chicago is doing. If you're going to post facts let them show the true picture not just what you want people to believe.

Surpassing all other large metropolitan regions in terms of getting more of its workforce back on the job was Grand Rapids, Michigan, which includes the municipality of Wyoming, Michigan. The Rapid City economy grew by 4.4% between 2015 and 2016, according to the BLS. To put that in perspective, the U.S. as a whole saw employment grow by about 1.7% over that same time period.


GRR is a nice, hip place. Loved visiting there.

dtw2hyd wrote:
winginit wrote:
Want to dive even deeper? Check out this pdf, which is a comprehensive view of the entire country. Tri County Detroit, per page 16 of that .pdf, shows a GDP percentage change of 2.1%. That's not. even. close. to being one of the fastest growing. Not even close. For comparison, Dallas is at 3.0%, Miami at 2.6%, Nashville at 3.4% San Francisco at 5.4% and so on and so forth. In fact, and wait for it this is where it gets good, in that final column you'll see that the Detroit metro tri-county region is the ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY SECOND fastest growing by GDP change. So no, it is most definitely not one of the fastest growing economic regions. Not. even. close.

So again... you're wrong. There's my data - feel free to present your own that concludes differently. Good luck!


Beverly Hall must be so proud of you.

$1 Million to $2 Million - +$1 Million, 100% growth
$1 Billion to $1.1 Billion - +$100 Million 10% growth

By your logic, $1 Million addition to GDP is better than $100 Million.

DTW catchment is not just Tri-County, it includes Michigan, parts of Ohio and Windsor, CA.


I would love to see some catchment numbers to help back this up. Michigan and Ohio I can believe to a point. Canada tho.... you gotta prove that one.

Alphazone wrote:
winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Actually you're wrong the region is one of the fastest growing economically. Please provide data about the tri county area to back that statement up. Obviously you are not from the Detroit area.


Is it now? Oh this should be good. Graph below, with the data source being the United States Census Bureau - let's tackle population first then we'll go into GDP metrics.

Image

So there's population, and it's clear that the Detroit metro area isn't even in the growth discussion compared to many of the cities on that graph. Now let's talk Economic growth shall we? Wait... now wait just a minute... can you go ahead and read this article linked below for me? Go ahead and read it out loud for the class it's from October of 2017:

Detroit has among the slowest economic growth in the nation

Want to dive even deeper? Check out this pdf, which is a comprehensive view of the entire country. Tri County Detroit, per page 16 of that .pdf, shows a GDP percentage change of 2.1%. That's not. even. close. to being one of the fastest growing. Not even close. For comparison, Dallas is at 3.0%, Miami at 2.6%, Nashville at 3.4% San Francisco at 5.4% and so on and so forth. In fact, and wait for it this is where it gets good, in that final column you'll see that the Detroit metro tri-county region is the ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY SECOND fastest growing by GDP change. So no, it is most definitely not one of the fastest growing economic regions. Not. even. close.

So again... you're wrong. There's my data - feel free to present your own that concludes differently. Good luck!


Do you think that airlines decide their plans based on "economic growth" of a city, so if an area shows no "economic growth" they will dismantle their existing infrastructure there?


No, but it determines future investment in the airport and air service. Having said that, you do get oddities like ORD, that has a shrinking population but has a decent economic base, two hub carriers, etc and is adding air service at a fast pace.

Nobody would dismantle infrastructure unless the city is too small (CVG, CLE), has a large incumbent carrier (DL at ORD, DFW), or just makes no sense due to technology improvements (DL and UA at NRT).

These decisions are not taken on emotion. They are taken on facts, which this thread is lacking.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:27 pm

About Indian population in DTW catchment area.

Again the popular number is fudged by the way MSA is defined.

Detroit Metro - 55,000
(vs)
DTW catchment
Michigan - 77,000
Ohio - 64,000 (part of it)
Windsor - 4,000

100 mile and 150 mile circles
Image
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:40 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
About Indian population in DTW catchment area.

Again the popular number is fudged by the way MSA is defined.

Detroit Metro - 55,000
(vs)
DTW catchment
Michigan - 77,000
Ohio - 64,000 (part of it)
Windsor - 4,000

100 mile and 150 mile circles
Image


Doesnt work like that. People aren't birds, so catchment area cannot determined "as the crow flies". Cleveland is 168 miles from Detroit not within 100.
Next flight: IAH-UIO-IAH on UA in Y
 
nmdrdh787
Posts: 185
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:43 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
About Indian population in DTW catchment area.

Again the popular number is fudged by the way MSA is defined.

Detroit Metro - 55,000
(vs)
DTW catchment
Michigan - 77,000
Ohio - 64,000 (part of it)
Windsor - 4,000

100 mile and 150 mile circles
Image


Doesnt work like that. People aren't birds, so catchment area cannot determined "as the crow flies". Cleveland is 168 miles from Detroit not within 100.


100% true. Catchment is usually determined by drive time. Pull one that includes 60-120 minutes and then you will have some solid data for once.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:53 pm

The last census data reported that Detroit had the 12th largest CSA and 13th largest MSA. Since that time, the MSA has declined but the CSA reaches nearly 6M. This is just the US and Michigan exclusively. This also leaves out Jackson County which is a large user of DTW. Include the Windsor, Toledo, Lansing, and Bay area and the catchment is probably around 6.5 million.
Resort, and other ground transportation options are on level 1.

*Future Route Network Planner*
 
nmdrdh787
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:03 pm

I saw some people throughout the thread have been complaining that DTW leaks to ORD.

So, have you run a leakage analysis to determine this? Do you know that Point of Sale data (the key data used to determine this) in Sabre, OAG and other market intelligence sources is not complete at all? Expedia and other booking websites refuse to share it, so when you run a POS report on a route, the majority of the bookings show up as coming out of Expedia's HQ. That makes the data source less accurate, and makes it extremely hard to run a leakage analysis.

Some of you really don't get what us network planners deal with and do huh?
 
nmdrdh787
Posts: 185
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:39 am

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:04 pm

flymco753 wrote:
The last census data reported that Detroit had the 12th largest CSA and 13th largest MSA. Since that time, the MSA has declined but the CSA reaches nearly 6M. This is just the US and Michigan exclusively. This also leaves out Jackson County which is a large user of DTW. Include the Windsor, Toledo, Lansing, and Bay area and the catchment is probably around 6.5 million.


This still is not how you create a catchment analysis. Would be more than happy to walk through the steps to clarify it.
 
klm617
Posts: 2948
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:15 pm

jordanh wrote:
klm617 wrote:
First of all Delta doesn't even feel it can compete in the New York Tokyo market to business powerhouse cities with zero ME3 low fare competition and a lot of high yielding traffic but yet everyone thinks it can compete in the NYC-India market which is for the most part low yielding not to mention laden with ME3 low fare competition of course DTW is a better place to launch a Mumbai flight it is wide open to do and charge what it wants with ZERO competition. If it can't make Toyko work from New York what chance do you think India has.


But this is what you posted on the new-flight-to-Mumbai-thread:

klm617 wrote:
We all know the runing is between ATL and JFK.


So if we all know the running is between ATL and JFK... why do you keep arguing about DTW. It is done. Over. And you just keep beating a dead horse.

Why not talk aboutr something that is impossible... instead of continuing to look like a chicken running in circles with his head cut off?


Because Detroit has a better chance to succeed than the other two options that failed. But Delta can't see past ATL and JFK for international growth.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 6064
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:15 pm

Michiganders can drive 150 Miles in 120 minutes.

It is funny every one coaches Metro Detroit Indians to drive 4 hrs to ORD (or) endure 30 hr two-stop trips thru their beloved hub paying more than others, so they can enjoy dirt cheap tickets.

Just for comparison, a beloved MSA with 78,980 Indian population has next Indian population center 400 miles (aerial distance) away.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:19 pm

nmdrdh787 wrote:
So, have you run a leakage analysis to determine this? Do you know that Point of Sale data (the key data used to determine this) in Sabre, OAG and other market intelligence sources is not complete at all? Expedia and other booking websites refuse to share it, so when you run a POS report on a route, the majority of the bookings show up as coming out of Expedia's HQ. That makes the data source less accurate, and makes it extremely hard to run a leakage analysis.

Some of you really don't get what us network planners deal with and do huh?


Because US carriers have no partnership with ME3, Metro Detroit Indians buy a separate ticket on AA or drive to ORD. This will not show up anywhere.
 
nmdrdh787
Posts: 185
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:39 am

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:21 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Michiganders can drive 150 Miles in 120 minutes.

It is funny every one coaches Metro Detroit Indians to drive 4 hrs to ORD (or) endure 30 hr two-stop trips thru their beloved hub paying more than others, so they can enjoy dirt cheap tickets.

Just for comparison, a beloved MSA with 78,980 Indian population has next Indian population center 400 miles (aerial distance) away.


You just don't get it.

Seriously.

Here is how you run an accurate catchment analysis:

A) Use a prebuilt tool such as the one Diio has, that includes relevant population, ethnic and economic data.
B) Pull all of that data from GIS sources, pop into ArcGIS and create the ranges from there.

Throwing a Great Circle map up, and then claiming your ranges are correct because "Michiganers can drive 150 miles in two hours" is not a catchment analysis. Its a sorry attempt to push a factless narrative.

Get some facts, and then come to the table.
 
nmdrdh787
Posts: 185
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:39 am

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:24 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
nmdrdh787 wrote:
So, have you run a leakage analysis to determine this? Do you know that Point of Sale data (the key data used to determine this) in Sabre, OAG and other market intelligence sources is not complete at all? Expedia and other booking websites refuse to share it, so when you run a POS report on a route, the majority of the bookings show up as coming out of Expedia's HQ. That makes the data source less accurate, and makes it extremely hard to run a leakage analysis.

Some of you really don't get what us network planners deal with and do huh?


Because US carriers have no partnership with ME3, Metro Detroit Indians buy a separate ticket on AA or drive to ORD. This will not show up anywhere.


That doesn't even answer the question! partnerships aren't relevant for a leakage analysis! You can push this narrative, but until there is accurate POS data, there is no way to 100% prove that this leakage is happening!

Do you just skim what I and others are saying and then twist it to your narrative???
 
klm617
Posts: 2948
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:27 pm

nmdrdh787 wrote:
I saw some people throughout the thread have been complaining that DTW leaks to ORD.

So, have you run a leakage analysis to determine this? Do you know that Point of Sale data (the key data used to determine this) in Sabre, OAG and other market intelligence sources is not complete at all? Expedia and other booking websites refuse to share it, so when you run a POS report on a route, the majority of the bookings show up as coming out of Expedia's HQ. That makes the data source less accurate, and makes it extremely hard to run a leakage analysis.

Some of you really don't get what us network planners deal with and do huh?



Let's just say this the entire state of Michigan depends on ORD for it's bulk cargo that's an incredible amount of leakage that the airport is losing revenue on. Let me say this your comments are already biased towards ORD as you stated you are working for ORD to get new service there and yes Chicago is a far more important market than Detroit it always has been. Sorry but there is a ton of international leakage from Michigan to Chicago that's a fact whether it can be proven or not. As far as cargo goes I worked in the supply chain and every expedited shipment that didn't fit in the belly came through ORD and was trucked to Detroit. With that being said and since ORD is in no way undeserved in any market share with us please what you think Detroit should be able to land given the right effort and tools that are needed to attract more service and maybe you can shed light on the apparent black balling and blockage in this market.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
Posts: 2948
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:29 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
nmdrdh787 wrote:
So, have you run a leakage analysis to determine this? Do you know that Point of Sale data (the key data used to determine this) in Sabre, OAG and other market intelligence sources is not complete at all? Expedia and other booking websites refuse to share it, so when you run a POS report on a route, the majority of the bookings show up as coming out of Expedia's HQ. That makes the data source less accurate, and makes it extremely hard to run a leakage analysis.

Some of you really don't get what us network planners deal with and do huh?


Because US carriers have no partnership with ME3, Metro Detroit Indians buy a separate ticket on AA or drive to ORD. This will not show up anywhere.


As do a lot of Polish people to utilize the LOT nonstops to Warsaw.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 6064
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:31 pm

nmdrdh787 wrote:
...
That doesn't even answer the question! partnerships aren't relevant for a leakage analysis! You can push this narrative, but until there is accurate POS data, there is no way to 100% prove that this leakage is happening!

Do you just skim what I and others are saying and then twist it to your narrative???


There is no need to twist any facts, that is the reality of an unserved captive market.

You are the one trying to prove there is no market. The Indian population in Michigan and Ohio doesn't disappear because you don't like the numbers.
 
nmdrdh787
Posts: 185
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:39 am

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:38 pm

klm617 wrote:
nmdrdh787 wrote:
I saw some people throughout the thread have been complaining that DTW leaks to ORD.

So, have you run a leakage analysis to determine this? Do you know that Point of Sale data (the key data used to determine this) in Sabre, OAG and other market intelligence sources is not complete at all? Expedia and other booking websites refuse to share it, so when you run a POS report on a route, the majority of the bookings show up as coming out of Expedia's HQ. That makes the data source less accurate, and makes it extremely hard to run a leakage analysis.

Some of you really don't get what us network planners deal with and do huh?



Let's just say this the entire state of Michigan depends on ORD for it's bulk cargo that's an incredible amount of leakage that the airport is losing revenue on. Let me say this your comments are already biased towards ORD as you stated you are working for ORD to get new service there and yes Chicago is a far more important market than Detroit it always has been. Sorry but there is a ton of international leakage from Michigan to Chicago that's a fact whether it can be proven or not. As far as cargo goes I worked in the supply chain and every expedited shipment that didn't fit in the belly came through ORD and was trucked to Detroit. With that being said and since ORD is in no way undeserved in any market share with us please what you think Detroit should be able to land given the right effort and tools that are needed to attract more service and maybe you can shed light on the apparent black balling and blockage in this market.



Yes I am biased to ORD. I'll admit that because I worked so hard for them and I am now seeing the results.

Still, where is your leakage analysis to prove that ORD is taking most of your traffic. I haven't seen anything to prove it.

Did I ever say that DTW didn't deserve service? No. All I am asking is for you and the other person pushing a narrative to put some facts where your words are. Is that hard for you two to do?

klm617 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
nmdrdh787 wrote:
So, have you run a leakage analysis to determine this? Do you know that Point of Sale data (the key data used to determine this) in Sabre, OAG and other market intelligence sources is not complete at all? Expedia and other booking websites refuse to share it, so when you run a POS report on a route, the majority of the bookings show up as coming out of Expedia's HQ. That makes the data source less accurate, and makes it extremely hard to run a leakage analysis.

Some of you really don't get what us network planners deal with and do huh?


Because US carriers have no partnership with ME3, Metro Detroit Indians buy a separate ticket on AA or drive to ORD. This will not show up anywhere.


As do a lot of Polish people to utilize the LOT nonstops to Warsaw.


Prove it with some accurate POS data.

dtw2hyd wrote:
nmdrdh787 wrote:
...
That doesn't even answer the question! partnerships aren't relevant for a leakage analysis! You can push this narrative, but until there is accurate POS data, there is no way to 100% prove that this leakage is happening!

Do you just skim what I and others are saying and then twist it to your narrative???


There is no need to twist any facts, that is the reality of an unserved captive market.

You are the one trying to prove there is no market. The Indian population in Michigan and Ohio doesn't disappear because you don't like the numbers.


Prove it. Give me some Sabre and Diio data to show catchment, and prove the leakage. Put some facts where your narrative is that are relevant to the converstation.

I'm not trying to prove that there is no market. I am just calling your bluff with your lack of an industry standard catchment and leakage analysis.

You two need a reality check about how the industry works. It's not worth my time trying to even explain it because it's like talking to a brick wall.
 
klm617
Posts: 2948
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:39 pm

nmdrdh787 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
nmdrdh787 wrote:
So, have you run a leakage analysis to determine this? Do you know that Point of Sale data (the key data used to determine this) in Sabre, OAG and other market intelligence sources is not complete at all? Expedia and other booking websites refuse to share it, so when you run a POS report on a route, the majority of the bookings show up as coming out of Expedia's HQ. That makes the data source less accurate, and makes it extremely hard to run a leakage analysis.

Some of you really don't get what us network planners deal with and do huh?


Because US carriers have no partnership with ME3, Metro Detroit Indians buy a separate ticket on AA or drive to ORD. This will not show up anywhere.


That doesn't even answer the question! partnerships aren't relevant for a leakage analysis! You can push this narrative, but until there is accurate POS data, there is no way to 100% prove that this leakage is happening!

Do you just skim what I and others are saying and then twist it to your narrative???


Oh please because you can't prove it doesn't mean it's not happening even you in your infinite wisdom don't believe that.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
Posts: 2948
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:48 pm

nmdrdh787 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
nmdrdh787 wrote:
I saw some people throughout the thread have been complaining that DTW leaks to ORD.

So, have you run a leakage analysis to determine this? Do you know that Point of Sale data (the key data used to determine this) in Sabre, OAG and other market intelligence sources is not complete at all? Expedia and other booking websites refuse to share it, so when you run a POS report on a route, the majority of the bookings show up as coming out of Expedia's HQ. That makes the data source less accurate, and makes it extremely hard to run a leakage analysis.

Some of you really don't get what us network planners deal with and do huh?



Let's just say this the entire state of Michigan depends on ORD for it's bulk cargo that's an incredible amount of leakage that the airport is losing revenue on. Let me say this your comments are already biased towards ORD as you stated you are working for ORD to get new service there and yes Chicago is a far more important market than Detroit it always has been. Sorry but there is a ton of international leakage from Michigan to Chicago that's a fact whether it can be proven or not. As far as cargo goes I worked in the supply chain and every expedited shipment that didn't fit in the belly came through ORD and was trucked to Detroit. With that being said and since ORD is in no way undeserved in any market share with us please what you think Detroit should be able to land given the right effort and tools that are needed to attract more service and maybe you can shed light on the apparent black balling and blockage in this market.



Yes I am biased to ORD. I'll admit that because I worked so hard for them and I am now seeing the results.

Still, where is your leakage analysis to prove that ORD is taking most of your traffic. I haven't seen anything to prove it.

Did I ever say that DTW didn't deserve service? No. All I am asking is for you and the other person pushing a narrative to put some facts where your words are. Is that hard for you two to do?

klm617 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

Because US carriers have no partnership with ME3, Metro Detroit Indians buy a separate ticket on AA or drive to ORD. This will not show up anywhere.


As do a lot of Polish people to utilize the LOT nonstops to Warsaw.


Prove it with some accurate POS data.

dtw2hyd wrote:
nmdrdh787 wrote:
...
That doesn't even answer the question! partnerships aren't relevant for a leakage analysis! You can push this narrative, but until there is accurate POS data, there is no way to 100% prove that this leakage is happening!

Do you just skim what I and others are saying and then twist it to your narrative???


There is no need to twist any facts, that is the reality of an unserved captive market.

You are the one trying to prove there is no market. The Indian population in Michigan and Ohio doesn't disappear because you don't like the numbers.


Prove it. Give me some Sabre and Diio data to show catchment, and prove the leakage. Put some facts where your narrative is that are relevant to the converstation.

I'm not trying to prove that there is no market. I am just calling your bluff with your lack of an industry standard catchment and leakage analysis.

You two need a reality check about how the industry works. It's not worth my time trying to even explain it because it's like talking to a brick wall.


No it's not like talking to a brick wall I am open to listen but I'm tired of most everyone on this forum talking about why things don't work but everyone seems to be scared about going on record about what can be done and added in the Detroit market yet they have no issue posting why it won't work. There are no brainier adds that should be happening here in Detroit and when somebody champions those conversations they are shut down almost immediately. India. Dublin, more London service and even Manchester to a lesser extent. So please go on record and state what should Detroit easily be able to add if the effort was put behind the proposition with the right amount of initiative. Perhaps you yourself could offer your services to the airport to help them attract new service like you did for ORD. People have no issue justifying ORD-AKL with little or no O/D but have a problem with DTW-India , DUB and the like which have more potential and that is troublesome to me.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
User avatar
Alphazone
Posts: 183
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:53 pm

nmdrdh787 wrote:
Put some facts where your narrative is


Alphazone wrote:
Your DTW's Indian doctor is a DM and collects DL miles.
No conclusion can be offered, for the history recounted above is still unfolding.
 
seanpmassey
Posts: 48
Joined: Mon May 23, 2016 3:22 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:23 pm

I've spent the last couple of hours hanging out in the McNamara terminal waiting for my flight back to ATW. I really do like the layout of this terminal.
 
winginit
Posts: 1538
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:53 am

klm617 wrote:
I'm tired of most everyone on this forum talking about why things don't work but everyone seems to be scared about going on record about what can be done and added in the Detroit market yet they have no issue posting why it won't work.


What this forum is tired of is your nonsensical claims with no data to back them. Below is your claim -

klm617 wrote:
Actually you're wrong the region is one of the fastest growing economically.


I have provided evidence that refutes that claim. You have not provided evidence that backs you claim (you simply said "per Forbes" without providing a link, which is absolutely comical).

Provide evidence to back your claim that the Detroit metro region is one of the fastest growing economically or be silent on the matter.
 
ADrum23
Posts: 1789
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:04 am

nmdrdh787 wrote:
compensateme wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
Based on the above numbers and general socio-economic trends, DTW should be lucky they even have the level of service they have.......


...from the guy who previously posted that you thought DL errored in judgement in “choosing” DTW over CVG. You know — how silly of DL to “choose” the hub generating 3.5x the local traffic and nearly 4x the local revenue!

Not to mention Chicago’s numbers are even worse, and it has a far larger amount of air service for its size and worse yields on average that DTW. I challenge you to post your comments in one of the many threads discussing ORD’s “well needed” expansion.


ORD is more important than DTW... sorry to break it to you. Would love to see you debunk that with some actual MIDT or Sabre numbers instead of some baseless facts, especially as I am a former consultant that worked extremely hard to help to get ORD most of its new service this year and last. I'll let the route announcements and new tails at ORD do the talking for me.

ORD is a large international air cargo port (one of the top ones if not #1 depending on how you look at it), has a larger O&D base, is somewhat stable even though our government is a joke and people are leaving. Just some of the examples.

As I mentioned in the DL & Mumbai thread: DL has a smart network planning and revenue management department that is not hellbent on screwing DTW. It all has to do with numbers.....


Exactly. ORD has 3x the amount of population of DTW and way more O&D. It has TWO hub carriers as opposed to one (plus a competing airport in MDW which has the largest WN focus city) so that is why yields are not as great as they could be.

BTW nmdrdh787: Since you are a former consultant that helped land new service, do you know why ORD doesn't have service to TLV yet? It seems like that is a huge hole in their network.
 
nmdrdh787
Posts: 185
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:39 am

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:05 pm

ADrum23 wrote:
nmdrdh787 wrote:
compensateme wrote:

BTW nmdrdh787: Since you are a former consultant that helped land new service, do you know why ORD doesn't have service to TLV yet? It seems like that is a huge hole in their network.


I can't really comment on it publicly, but its surprising isn't it?

I will say MIA and SFO are good adds but its surprising nobody has sprung to readd it.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 5334
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:35 pm

klm617 wrote:
nmdrdh787 wrote:
klm617 wrote:


Let's just say this the entire state of Michigan depends on ORD for it's bulk cargo that's an incredible amount of leakage that the airport is losing revenue on. Let me say this your comments are already biased towards ORD as you stated you are working for ORD to get new service there and yes Chicago is a far more important market than Detroit it always has been. Sorry but there is a ton of international leakage from Michigan to Chicago that's a fact whether it can be proven or not. As far as cargo goes I worked in the supply chain and every expedited shipment that didn't fit in the belly came through ORD and was trucked to Detroit. With that being said and since ORD is in no way undeserved in any market share with us please what you think Detroit should be able to land given the right effort and tools that are needed to attract more service and maybe you can shed light on the apparent black balling and blockage in this market.



Yes I am biased to ORD. I'll admit that because I worked so hard for them and I am now seeing the results.

Still, where is your leakage analysis to prove that ORD is taking most of your traffic. I haven't seen anything to prove it.

Did I ever say that DTW didn't deserve service? No. All I am asking is for you and the other person pushing a narrative to put some facts where your words are. Is that hard for you two to do?

klm617 wrote:

As do a lot of Polish people to utilize the LOT nonstops to Warsaw.


Prove it with some accurate POS data.

dtw2hyd wrote:

There is no need to twist any facts, that is the reality of an unserved captive market.

You are the one trying to prove there is no market. The Indian population in Michigan and Ohio doesn't disappear because you don't like the numbers.


Prove it. Give me some Sabre and Diio data to show catchment, and prove the leakage. Put some facts where your narrative is that are relevant to the converstation.

I'm not trying to prove that there is no market. I am just calling your bluff with your lack of an industry standard catchment and leakage analysis.

You two need a reality check about how the industry works. It's not worth my time trying to even explain it because it's like talking to a brick wall.


No it's not like talking to a brick wall I am open to listen but I'm tired of most everyone on this forum talking about why things don't work but everyone seems to be scared about going on record about what can be done and added in the Detroit market yet they have no issue posting why it won't work. There are no brainier adds that should be happening here in Detroit and when somebody champions those conversations they are shut down almost immediately. India. Dublin, more London service and even Manchester to a lesser extent. So please go on record and state what should Detroit easily be able to add if the effort was put behind the proposition with the right amount of initiative. Perhaps you yourself could offer your services to the airport to help them attract new service like you did for ORD. People have no issue justifying ORD-AKL with little or no O/D but have a problem with DTW-India , DUB and the like which have more potential and that is troublesome to me.


Youre directly contradict yourself. You say talking to you isnt like talking to a brick wall, yet you've been educated time and time again why comparing ORD-AKL to DTW-India is ridiculous (by posters who clearly know more about the subject). Therefore, talking to you is like talking to a brick wall.

Also, I have given you what I thought were realistic expectations for future routes for DTW were. DTW-India isn't realistic. You've been educated as to why but refuse to accept it.
Next flight: IAH-UIO-IAH on UA in Y
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 5334
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:43 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Michiganders can drive 150 Miles in 120 minutes.

It is funny every one coaches Metro Detroit Indians to drive 4 hrs to ORD (or) endure 30 hr two-stop trips thru their beloved hub paying more than others, so they can enjoy dirt cheap tickets.

Just for comparison, a beloved MSA with 78,980 Indian population has next Indian population center 400 miles (aerial distance) away.


Oh boy, I like this game!

Lets see I live in Houston. That means I can claim Austin, San Antonio, Beaumont, Lake Charles, and a bunch of other cities as part of my "catchment". I also know an Indian who once drove down from DFW to fly out of Houston for cheaper fares. I get to claim DFW. WHAT FUN THIS IS!!!
Next flight: IAH-UIO-IAH on UA in Y
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 6064
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:59 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
... I also know an Indian who once drove down from DFW to fly out of Houston for cheaper fares. I get to claim DFW.


That passenger does count as DFW-India O&D traffic. Isn't it? Now comes the CC ZIPCODE theory. What about tickets purchased in India to DFW and drove to Austin. Fortunately, AUS has options, unlike DTW.

You unintentionally explained the DTW-India leakage to ORD. There is no data to prove this leakage.

Time to report the post.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 5334
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:04 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
... I also know an Indian who once drove down from DFW to fly out of Houston for cheaper fares. I get to claim DFW.


That passenger does count as DFW-India O&D traffic. Isn't it? Now comes the CC ZIPCODE theory. What about tickets purchased in India to DFW and drove to Austin. Fortunately, AUS has options, unlike DTW.

You unintentionally explained the DTW-India leakage to ORD. There is no data to prove this leakage.

Time to report the post.


Excuse me, did you just imply that Austin has more options than DTW?

Also no. O&D traffic data is based off where you board the plane not where you purchased the ticket.
Next flight: IAH-UIO-IAH on UA in Y
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 6064
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:44 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
...

Also no. O&D traffic data is based off where you board the plane not where you purchased the ticket.


That's what I said

That passenger does count as DFW-India O&D traffic. Isn't it?


I get it, DTW is an important feeder market for ORD, BOS, and JFK. So the slightest thought of DTW-India passengers skipping these hubs gives heartburn.

QR announced $1700 J RT to Asia, I am paying same for Y with 2-stops.

AUS-India has 5 one-stop options, DTW has 4.
 
nmdrdh787
Posts: 185
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:39 am

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:58 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
... I also know an Indian who once drove down from DFW to fly out of Houston for cheaper fares. I get to claim DFW.


That passenger does count as DFW-India O&D traffic. Isn't it? Now comes the CC ZIPCODE theory. What about tickets purchased in India to DFW and drove to Austin. Fortunately, AUS has options, unlike DTW.

You unintentionally explained the DTW-India leakage to ORD. There is no data to prove this leakage.

Time to report the post.


As I stated above. CC ZIPCODE is useless until the data providers release their data (Expedia). If Network planners had an accurate date for this, it would be the holy grail. Literally. Unless things have changed.

Like I said before, I only asked you to prove your claim, even though I do believe it exists, BUT I think you believe it is larger than it is. I would guess that more people start their trip in DTW and then connect to a different carrier on a separate ticket. Thats hard to prove without the CC Zipcode data, as it would show as O&D from another airport, and O&D from DTW to the connecting airport unless it was an interline ticket. I don't know though unless I had some fresh data in front of me.

I'm not trying to delegitimize your arguments, except that terrible catchment one, I'm asking you to 'put your money where your mouth is".

Also, In regards to some of your factless claims, you should look the DTW master plan (created by a well known consultancy firm, Leigh | Fisher), especially section 3-30 (international O&D in 2016, yes it is old but I don't have Sabre access anymore), figure 3-4 (proper catchment area that doesn't show Canada or Cleveland). Take a read through it, maybe it will clear up what I am asking for.

None of us are trying to have a personal bone with you (atleast I am not), but we would like some facts with your claims. Too many people throw false claims, rumors, etc around this forum and it just makes for a toxic conversation or hurts professionals. So no need to report anything.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 6064
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:32 pm

nmdrdh787 wrote:
As I stated above. CC ZIPCODE is useless until the data providers release their data (Expedia). If Network planners had an accurate date for this, it would be the holy grail. Literally. Unless things have changed.
...

None of us are trying to have a personal bone with you (atleast I am not), but we would like some facts with your claims. Too many people throw false claims, rumors, etc around this forum and it just makes for a toxic conversation or hurts professionals. So no need to report anything.


CC ZIPCODE theory is not mine and was used to coach us Detroiters there is no market.

Michigan has 77,000, Ohio has 64,000 and Windsor has 4,000 Indian per the last census. Irrespective of your definition of the catchment, this market is unserved.

There are a lot of DTW-India passengers driving or self-connecting at ORD. They may be helping ORD-India numbers, but not DTW. If there is no market, why did B6/EK start DTW-BOS?

A $1700 J RT is a premium market but a $1700 Y RT to the same place is low-yield. What sort of logic is this? And why should anyone take offense for asking this question?
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 6064
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:17 pm

nmdrdh787 wrote:
makes for a toxic conversation or hurts professionals.


On any ABC-XYZ service announcement thread, 777Mech gaslights the thread with an insult to Detroit, winginit puts more gas with additional insults and Laxdude brings some old useless foreign-born data.
 
winginit
Posts: 1538
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:23 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
nmdrdh787 wrote:
makes for a toxic conversation or hurts professionals.


On any ABC-XYZ service announcement thread, 777Mech gaslights the thread with an insult to Detroit, winginit puts more gas with additional insults and Laxdude brings some old useless foreign-born data.


Ah but of course. klm617 is but a passive observer and is in no way the instigator of literally all of that with nonsensical comments absent of any data on every. single. thread. regardless of whether DTW is in the ballpark of the conversation. Your comment is ridiculous without identifying the catalyst, and you would do well to direct your commentary appropriately.

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