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kmarwah
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:52 pm

Hopefully we get new AA metal to LHR rather than ex-US metal. Charlotte's ex-US a330 service to LHR is really sub-par, especially when compared to AA's 77W LHR service from LAX, MIA and JFK. In fact, AA's 77W/772 business class service is also vastly superior to BA's 744 CW service- so much so that I often prefer flying to/from LHR through LAX on AA over flying nonstop on BA.

Some sort of metal swap between BA and AA has been a long time coming; dual BA 744 service wasn't sustainable in the long run anyways. Unfortunately, I can't think of any realistic scenario where the overall seat count doesn't decrease. The chances of PHX getting an AA 77W service are pretty much negligible. BA keeping one 744 service and AA swapping the second 744 service for a 772 or 789 would result in a pretty significant capacity drop.

An ideal scenario consists of BA keeping one 744 service and downgrading the second 744 service to a 788, with AA making up for the lost capacity by adding another 788 service. One can dream, right? :D
 
Mboyle1988
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:57 pm

777PHX wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
777PHX wrote:
There are some strong rumors going around from credible sources that there is going to be a good change to BA PHX-LHR and it involves AA as well. Sounds like it’s either a metal swap between BA and AA, or, AA is adding a PHX-LHR of their own.


The only "good" in that would be AA adding their own nonstop. Spotting at PHX is tough already with such little diversity - we need BA and we could really use an AA widebody. :-)


Yeah, I wouldn't be crazy about losing BA, but AA is easier to redeem mileage on and doesn't do the crazy YQ taxes.

Given that BA is running with two 744s some days now during the summer, I'm sort of skeptical BA is going to cede the route to AA on a smaller aircraft.


Honestly, AA adding its own metal to LHR might be enough to get me to switch back from WN. I was EP with AA but left when their frequent flyer tickets became impossible to get internationally. BA has availability but it ends up costing about the same as a flight on another airline by the time you're done with taxes and fuel surcharges.
 
777PHX
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:17 pm

kmarwah wrote:
Hopefully we get new AA metal to LHR rather than ex-US metal. Charlotte's ex-US a330 service to LHR is really sub-par, especially when compared to AA's 77W LHR service from LAX, MIA and JFK. In fact, AA's 77W/772 business class service is also vastly superior to BA's 744 CW service- so much so that I often prefer flying to/from LHR through LAX on AA over flying nonstop on BA.


I took a trip to Europe in both J products and I didn't think the 77W was that much better than the A330. The hard product is very similar. The 77W is nicer because it's newer, obviously, especially the little J mini-cabin behind F, but I came away satisfied with the A330 product as well.

Some sort of metal swap between BA and AA has been a long time coming; dual BA 744 service wasn't sustainable in the long run anyways. Unfortunately, I can't think of any realistic scenario where the overall seat count doesn't decrease. The chances of PHX getting an AA 77W service are pretty much negligible. BA keeping one 744 service and AA swapping the second 744 service for a 772 or 789 would result in a pretty significant capacity drop.


The second 744 flight isn't year round. It's possible we could see BA keep their later 744 flight, drop the second flight, and AA picks it up on their metal with a year round <insert widebody here>. That would be a net gain in seats for the year.
 
paulsaz
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:59 pm

The PHX-LHR would be great for employees of AA. Also the city is looking for qualified SIDA badged employees to volunteer in October for drills at T3S.Memo states concourse is stated to open in November.
 
paulsaz
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:01 pm

Has anyone got a pic of the new AA Eagle walkways at B1 and B15? The walkways look like a bunch enclosed metal tubes with some rollup jetbridges for Express flights. I guess that is good for when its raining, but imagine it must be very hot.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:56 pm

777PHX wrote:
Given that BA is running with two 744s some days now during the summer, I'm sort of skeptical BA is going to cede the route to AA on a smaller aircraft.

They wouldn't be ceding anything — it's a revenue sharing joint venture. It doesn't make a difference who flies the route with what, they both share the revenue. They work together to best deploy their assets that will yield them the most revenue. That said, I'm skeptical. AA (and US before them) has shown indifference at best to PHX when it comes to international routes. Apart from fanciful ideas to possibly serve PEK and NRT, they've made little tangible effort to even attempt a long haul route. They've been happy to let BA continue serving the route as they did prior to the JV, and take their share of the profit.
 
kmarwah
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:23 pm

777PHX wrote:
kmarwah wrote:
Hopefully we get new AA metal to LHR rather than ex-US metal. Charlotte's ex-US a330 service to LHR is really sub-par, especially when compared to AA's 77W LHR service from LAX, MIA and JFK. In fact, AA's 77W/772 business class service is also vastly superior to BA's 744 CW service- so much so that I often prefer flying to/from LHR through LAX on AA over flying nonstop on BA.


I took a trip to Europe in both J products and I didn't think the 77W was that much better than the A330. The hard product is very similar. The 77W is nicer because it's newer, obviously, especially the little J mini-cabin behind F, but I came away satisfied with the A330 product as well.


Inflight wifi is a really big deal for me, especially on daytime flights from Europe to the West Coast.

777PHX wrote:
kmarwah wrote:
Some sort of metal swap between BA and AA has been a long time coming; dual BA 744 service wasn't sustainable in the long run anyways. Unfortunately, I can't think of any realistic scenario where the overall seat count doesn't decrease. The chances of PHX getting an AA 77W service are pretty much negligible. BA keeping one 744 service and AA swapping the second 744 service for a 772 or 789 would result in a pretty significant capacity drop.


The second 744 flight isn't year round. It's possible we could see BA keep their later 744 flight, drop the second flight, and AA picks it up on their metal with a year round <insert widebody here>. That would be a net gain in seats for the year.


That's a good point. BA's later flight is virtually almost full, so I'd be willing to bet that BA will be discontinuing the current afternoon 744 flight and AA will pick up the slack with their own metal. The real question is which plane AA will decide to use on the London route. I have a feeling it'll be an a330, as American doesn't have a great record in ex-US hubs. If AA chooses to fly a 772 or 77W, is there also a chance that PHX will receive a Flagship Lounge in the space currently occupied by The Club? We already know that PHX management is looking for something to replace The Club, and while a Centurion Lounge would be ideal I certainly wouldn't complain about a Flagship lounge.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:12 pm

kmarwah wrote:
I have a feeling it'll be an a330, as American doesn't have a great record in ex-US hubs.

The thought of an A330 trying to operate from PHX to LHR...in the summer...in the afternoon...yikes. Those things climb like absolute pieces of garbage off of CLT in the summer (well under <500 feet per minute on some days), so I'd wince at the idea of them trying to fly an even longer route from PHX. If AA were to add a European flight from PHX (as I mentioned before, I'm very skeptical), I can't see how the 330 would even be an option. They'd probably need the 787 or 772 just for the performance factor.
 
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cathay747
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:20 pm

777PHX wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
777PHX wrote:
There are some strong rumors going around from credible sources that there is going to be a good change to BA PHX-LHR and it involves AA as well. Sounds like it’s either a metal swap between BA and AA, or, AA is adding a PHX-LHR of their own.


The only "good" in that would be AA adding their own nonstop. Spotting at PHX is tough already with such little diversity - we need BA and we could really use an AA widebody. :-)


Yeah, I wouldn't be crazy about losing BA, but AA is easier to redeem mileage on and doesn't do the crazy YQ taxes.

Given that BA is running with two 744s some days now during the summer, I'm sort of skeptical BA is going to cede the route to AA on a smaller aircraft.


I've no doubt you're very, very right about redeeming mileage being easier on AA, but...as for BA "ceding" the route to AA on smaller aircraft...it really doesn't matter...their JV is metal-neutral like most JV's with revenue sharing etc., so who actually operates it is irrelevant. Since I've read (forget where, probably a thread here on a.net) that AA has slack in the A330 fleet, they could replace BA for this seasonal 2nd flight BA has now added for the 2nd year and even make it daily vs. BA at 3x weekly...year-round even, which frees up a bird for BA they could use elsewhere (or retire)...it would be a win-win for both parties and potentially also for travelers.
 
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cathay747
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:29 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
kmarwah wrote:
I have a feeling it'll be an a330, as American doesn't have a great record in ex-US hubs.

The thought of an A330 trying to operate from PHX to LHR...in the summer...in the afternoon...yikes. Those things climb like absolute pieces of garbage off of CLT in the summer (well under <500 feet per minute on some days), so I'd wince at the idea of them trying to fly an even longer route from PHX. If AA were to add a European flight from PHX (as I mentioned before, I'm very skeptical), I can't see how the 330 would even be an option. They'd probably need the 787 or 772 just for the performance factor.


Damn...the 330 is that bad performance-wise in a hot clime? I didn't realize that; seems odd given DE is using a 763 out of here...is the 763 that much superior? In any case...then maybe have BA keep the now-seasonal-3x/week flight with a 744 (for performance), make it daily-year-round, and then have AA use a 330 on the later flight keeping it daily/year-round) given its 2100-or so departure time? Might that work for a 330 performance-wise?
 
paulsaz
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:37 pm

Maybe use an A330 for RDU and that 777 for PHX.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:10 pm

cathay747 wrote:
Damn...the 330 is that bad performance-wise in a hot clime? I didn't realize that; seems odd given DE is using a 763 out of here...is the 763 that much superior? In any case...then maybe have BA keep the now-seasonal-3x/week flight with a 744 (for performance), make it daily-year-round, and then have AA use a 330 on the later flight keeping it daily/year-round) given its 2100-or so departure time? Might that work for a 330 performance-wise?

Most Airbus products struggle in performance compared to their Boeing counterparts — I'm not trying to say this to be biased (there are pros and cons of both manufacturers in various aspects, in my opinion), but it's just based on my experience dealing with these types on a daily basis. For example, the A321 sucks at cruise altitude; they blow through their holding patterns because they physically can't make the turns tight enough without falling out of the sky. The A330 struggles at a lot of things, but climb performance is the big one. Some of the CLT departures barely top RDU at 24,000 ft., and those are just flights to western/central Europe. Even some of the CRJs will outclimb the 330s :shock:

The 763/764 usually has much better performance to give than the 330, although I'd imagine Condor's 763 even has a tough time on hot nights, more so because that flight pushes the range limitations on the aircraft. All things being equal though, the 763/764 beats the 332/333 in the climb any day.

paulsaz wrote:
Maybe use an A330 for RDU and that 777 for PHX.

The 772 is year-round at RDU and has been for quite some time, so I doubt they'd want the capacity loss on that route when it's only served once daily.
 
Maverick623
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:01 am

kmarwah wrote:
I have a feeling it'll be an a330.


It'll be a 777 if it does happen. A senior manager said earlier this year in an employee town hall that the A330 will not return to PHX again (there were several operational issues with the HNL flying last winter). He did say that if a widebody came to PHX, it would be a 777, but that wouldn't happen "this year" (implying they were looking at 2019 as a possibility).

kmarwah wrote:
If AA chooses to fly a 772 or 77W, is there also a chance that PHX will receive a Flagship Lounge in the space currently occupied by The Club?


Not a chance.
 
cm642
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:38 am

If anyone was curious about the progress of T3S "Soled" posted some updated shots of the concourse as well as some interior shots and central/main terminal updates.
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=123666&page=298
 
boeing777200lr
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:00 am

does the new T3 have any intl capability? I noticed there was a dual jetbridge and widebody parking in the designs
 
wn676
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:59 am

boeing777200lr wrote:
does the new T3 have any intl capability? I noticed there was a dual jetbridge and widebody parking in the designs


The gates are all single bridge and there will be no FIS in T3. The only international arrival capability will be for precleared flights.
 
777PHX
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:09 pm

cathay747 wrote:
777PHX wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:

The only "good" in that would be AA adding their own nonstop. Spotting at PHX is tough already with such little diversity - we need BA and we could really use an AA widebody. :-)


Yeah, I wouldn't be crazy about losing BA, but AA is easier to redeem mileage on and doesn't do the crazy YQ taxes.

Given that BA is running with two 744s some days now during the summer, I'm sort of skeptical BA is going to cede the route to AA on a smaller aircraft.


I've no doubt you're very, very right about redeeming mileage being easier on AA, but...as for BA "ceding" the route to AA on smaller aircraft...it really doesn't matter...their JV is metal-neutral like most JV's with revenue sharing etc., so who actually operates it is irrelevant. Since I've read (forget where, probably a thread here on a.net) that AA has slack in the A330 fleet, they could replace BA for this seasonal 2nd flight BA has now added for the 2nd year and even make it daily vs. BA at 3x weekly...year-round even, which frees up a bird for BA they could use elsewhere (or retire)...it would be a win-win for both parties and potentially also for travelers.


I'm aware of that. The point I was trying to make is that since BA seems to want to operate into every major US city, I'm not confident they'd be willing to give up PHX on their own metal.

kmarwah wrote:
If AA chooses to fly a 772 or 77W, is there also a chance that PHX will receive a Flagship Lounge in the space currently occupied by The Club? We already know that PHX management is looking for something to replace The Club, and while a Centurion Lounge would be ideal I certainly wouldn't complain about a Flagship lounge.


Nah, Flagship is considered the premier first class club and the only aircraft with international first class these days is the 77W, which I don't see operating here. Additionally, Flagship isn't needed for competitive reasons since AA/BA is the only game in town.

Maverick623 wrote:
It'll be a 777 if it does happen. A senior manager said earlier this year in an employee town hall that the A330 will not return to PHX again (there were several operational issues with the HNL flying last winter).


Any more detail on this operational issues? Something having to do with gate usage, perhaps? Surely it's not performance related?
 
skyharborshome
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:49 pm

777PHX wrote:
cathay747 wrote:
777PHX wrote:

Nah, Flagship is considered the premier first class club and the only aircraft with international first class these days is the 77W, which I don't see operating here. Additionally, Flagship isn't needed for competitive reasons since AA/BA is the only game in town.


Not sure if you only meant as far as OneWorld. I have a lot of friends who are ready to jump from OneWorld to DL once the new SkyClub opens late this year. I know it seems petty, however, having that lounge to relax with somewhat peace and quiet before a long day of flying makes a huge difference. Will AA care? Maybe not. If the club is spacious and has that southern view, it could pull over some FFs. It made a difference in BNA several years ago.
 
777PHX
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:58 pm

skyharborshome wrote:
777PHX wrote:
cathay747 wrote:


Not sure if you only meant as far as OneWorld. I have a lot of friends who are ready to jump from OneWorld to DL once the new SkyClub opens late this year. I know it seems petty, however, having that lounge to relax with somewhat peace and quiet before a long day of flying makes a huge difference. Will AA care? Maybe not. If the club is spacious and has that southern view, it could pull over some FFs. It made a difference in BNA several years ago.


Skyclub is equivalent to the Admirals Club, both commonly referred to as business class lounges. AA has three Admirals Clubs at PHX. The Flagship club is a different, first class club to which Delta doesn't have a comparable offering.
 
skyharborshome
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:23 pm

777PHX wrote:
skyharborshome wrote:
777PHX wrote:


Not sure if you only meant as far as OneWorld. I have a lot of friends who are ready to jump from OneWorld to DL once the new SkyClub opens late this year. I know it seems petty, however, having that lounge to relax with somewhat peace and quiet before a long day of flying makes a huge difference. Will AA care? Maybe not. If the club is spacious and has that southern view, it could pull over some FFs. It made a difference in BNA several years ago.


Skyclub is equivalent to the Admirals Club, both commonly referred to as business class lounges. AA has three Admirals Clubs at PHX. The Flagship club is a different, first class club to which Delta doesn't have a comparable offering.


Thanks for the clarification. Always amazes me in the big int'l hubs how they have a business class lounge (used often) and then a first class lounge (not elite enough to have used them). Not saying I do not like the idea; just 'foreign' to me. Wow I need coffee.

I will also admit I have not used the AA clubs. I look forward to hearing a comparison between the DL T3 and AA T4 clubs later this year. Regardless of whose is best, growth is growth.
 
MO11
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:25 pm

777PHX wrote:
Maverick623 wrote:
It'll be a 777 if it does happen. A senior manager said earlier this year in an employee town hall that the A330 will not return to PHX again (there were several operational issues with the HNL flying last winter).


Any more detail on this operational issues? Something having to do with gate usage, perhaps? Surely it's not performance related?


It could be as simple as a crew issue. Since the A330 bases are CLT and PHL, if a crewmember becomes ill in PHX or HNL, then a new one has to deadhead in.
 
Maverick623
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:15 pm

777PHX wrote:
Maverick623 wrote:
It'll be a 777 if it does happen. A senior manager said earlier this year in an employee town hall that the A330 will not return to PHX again (there were several operational issues with the HNL flying last winter).


Any more detail on this operational issues? Something having to do with gate usage, perhaps? Surely it's not performance related?


Availability of aircraft parts was specifically cited, but the bigger issue was even if the arrivals were on time, passengers and their bags would misconnect. 25 minutes (which is what they were/are selling) is just not enough time to transfer people and their luggage from a widebody. Heck, it's an issue on narrowbodies.
 
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cathay747
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:23 pm

Maverick623 wrote:
777PHX wrote:
Maverick623 wrote:
It'll be a 777 if it does happen. A senior manager said earlier this year in an employee town hall that the A330 will not return to PHX again (there were several operational issues with the HNL flying last winter).


Any more detail on this operational issues? Something having to do with gate usage, perhaps? Surely it's not performance related?


Availability of aircraft parts was specifically cited, but the bigger issue was even if the arrivals were on time, passengers and their bags would misconnect. 25 minutes (which is what they were/are selling) is just not enough time to transfer people and their luggage from a widebody. Heck, it's an issue on narrowbodies.


Well the parts issues I can see in terms of HNL since AA has no other 330 ops at HNL; even here at PHX...they can't stock everything they might need at a station (even a hub) with one departure/arrival for that one type, the cost would be ridiculous.

But what's this about a 25min. connection time? I've never seen such a tight connection offered by AA for any market at any hub including PHX; hell, even WN doesn't have any connections that short that I know of!
 
wn676
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:33 pm

Maverick623 wrote:
777PHX wrote:
Maverick623 wrote:
It'll be a 777 if it does happen. A senior manager said earlier this year in an employee town hall that the A330 will not return to PHX again (there were several operational issues with the HNL flying last winter).


Any more detail on this operational issues? Something having to do with gate usage, perhaps? Surely it's not performance related?


Availability of aircraft parts was specifically cited, but the bigger issue was even if the arrivals were on time, passengers and their bags would misconnect. 25 minutes (which is what they were/are selling) is just not enough time to transfer people and their luggage from a widebody. Heck, it's an issue on narrowbodies.


I’m a little shocked that they didn’t adjust their MCTs to account for that, although I could see it presenting a revenue issue if it would require an earlier departure from CLT.
 
UpNAWAy
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:38 pm

The A330 problem was getting into PHX consistently on time and if there were any issue in PHX you had no relief. My guess is the 777-2 would route from DFW
 
Osubuckeyes
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:56 pm

cathay747 wrote:
Maverick623 wrote:
777PHX wrote:

Any more detail on this operational issues? Something having to do with gate usage, perhaps? Surely it's not performance related?


Availability of aircraft parts was specifically cited, but the bigger issue was even if the arrivals were on time, passengers and their bags would misconnect. 25 minutes (which is what they were/are selling) is just not enough time to transfer people and their luggage from a widebody. Heck, it's an issue on narrowbodies.


Well the parts issues I can see in terms of HNL since AA has no other 330 ops at HNL; even here at PHX...they can't stock everything they might need at a station (even a hub) with one departure/arrival for that one type, the cost would be ridiculous.

But what's this about a 25min. connection time? I've never seen such a tight connection offered by AA for any market at any hub including PHX; hell, even WN doesn't have any connections that short that I know of!


I've never seen 25min, but I have definitely seen 30-35min offered in the past, although that may have changed.
 
777PHX
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:58 pm

I’ve flown the morning flight from STL-PHX multiple times and it seems like half the plane is always full of people connecting to those Hawaii flights and they’re always losing their minds over the tight connection.
 
INFINITI329
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:34 pm

Maverick623 wrote:

It'll be a 777 if it does happen. A senior manager said earlier this year in an employee town hall that the A330 will not return to PHX again (there were several operational issues with the HNL flying last winter). He did say that if a widebody came to PHX, it would be a 777, but that wouldn't happen "this year" (implying they were looking at 2019 as a possibility).


Looks like the A330 will be back in 2019 for HNL as of now. AA would have to get creative on how to manage crews & spare parts.
 
910A
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:36 pm

The 333 is still showing up on the AA schedule for PHX-HNL with no 333 service to CLT or PHL. When would someone expect the place holder to change?
 
cm642
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:45 pm

910A wrote:
The 333 is still showing up on the AA schedule for PHX-HNL with no 333 service to CLT or PHL. When would someone expect the place holder to change?


I was just going to say, I wondered if it was being used as a placeholder.
 
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cathay747
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:33 pm

cm642 wrote:
910A wrote:
The 333 is still showing up on the AA schedule for PHX-HNL with no 333 service to CLT or PHL. When would someone expect the place holder to change?


I was just going to say, I wondered if it was being used as a placeholder.


Yeah like HA did putting in a 321 for PHX-HNL, as I learned earlier. But I don't understand WHY an airline does this. If AA hasn't made up their mind, then why not just leave the flight showing as a 757 (or in HA's case a 763)? Then make ONE change later when they decide for sure. Seems silly to me, if just from the standpoint of all the seat assignment re-accom's they have to do each time.
 
wn676
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:44 pm

cathay747 wrote:
cm642 wrote:
910A wrote:
The 333 is still showing up on the AA schedule for PHX-HNL with no 333 service to CLT or PHL. When would someone expect the place holder to change?


I was just going to say, I wondered if it was being used as a placeholder.


Yeah like HA did putting in a 321 for PHX-HNL, as I learned earlier. But I don't understand WHY an airline does this. If AA hasn't made up their mind, then why not just leave the flight showing as a 757 (or in HA's case a 763)? Then make ONE change later when they decide for sure. Seems silly to me, if just from the standpoint of all the seat assignment re-accom's they have to do each time.


The schedules are usually set up to pull equipment that was historically operated a year prior which is probably why you’re seeing the A330s show up again. There’s usually only one equipment change, if required, when the schedule is finalized 3-5 months out, unless you’re dealing with a regional partner where some airlines are making scheduled equipment swaps within 30 days of departure.
 
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cathay747
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:47 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
cathay747 wrote:
Damn...the 330 is that bad performance-wise in a hot clime? I didn't realize that; seems odd given DE is using a 763 out of here...is the 763 that much superior? In any case...then maybe have BA keep the now-seasonal-3x/week flight with a 744 (for performance), make it daily-year-round, and then have AA use a 330 on the later flight keeping it daily/year-round) given its 2100-or so departure time? Might that work for a 330 performance-wise?

Most Airbus products struggle in performance compared to their Boeing counterparts — I'm not trying to say this to be biased (there are pros and cons of both manufacturers in various aspects, in my opinion), but it's just based on my experience dealing with these types on a daily basis. For example, the A321 sucks at cruise altitude; they blow through their holding patterns because they physically can't make the turns tight enough without falling out of the sky. The A330 struggles at a lot of things, but climb performance is the big one. Some of the CLT departures barely top RDU at 24,000 ft., and those are just flights to western/central Europe. Even some of the CRJs will outclimb the 330s :shock:

The 763/764 usually has much better performance to give than the 330, although I'd imagine Condor's 763 even has a tough time on hot nights, more so because that flight pushes the range limitations on the aircraft. All things being equal though, the 763/764 beats the 332/333 in the climb any day.


Interesting insights. Thanks, didn't know these things. The thing about the 321 really surprises me. Well then if AA does come and do a PHX-LHR maybe it'll be a 772. Wonder if they could dovetail that with the HNL route and solve two A330 issues? That would require two frames, but I would think they could make a PHX/HNL/PHX/LHR/PHX routing work schedule-wise, no? I'm thinking it would give a shorter turn at HNL with a few hours on the ground here at PHX instead for MX. Thoughts?
 
wn676
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:49 pm

cathay747 wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
cathay747 wrote:
Damn...the 330 is that bad performance-wise in a hot clime? I didn't realize that; seems odd given DE is using a 763 out of here...is the 763 that much superior? In any case...then maybe have BA keep the now-seasonal-3x/week flight with a 744 (for performance), make it daily-year-round, and then have AA use a 330 on the later flight keeping it daily/year-round) given its 2100-or so departure time? Might that work for a 330 performance-wise?

Most Airbus products struggle in performance compared to their Boeing counterparts — I'm not trying to say this to be biased (there are pros and cons of both manufacturers in various aspects, in my opinion), but it's just based on my experience dealing with these types on a daily basis. For example, the A321 sucks at cruise altitude; they blow through their holding patterns because they physically can't make the turns tight enough without falling out of the sky. The A330 struggles at a lot of things, but climb performance is the big one. Some of the CLT departures barely top RDU at 24,000 ft., and those are just flights to western/central Europe. Even some of the CRJs will outclimb the 330s :shock:

The 763/764 usually has much better performance to give than the 330, although I'd imagine Condor's 763 even has a tough time on hot nights, more so because that flight pushes the range limitations on the aircraft. All things being equal though, the 763/764 beats the 332/333 in the climb any day.


Interesting insights. Thanks, didn't know these things. The thing about the 321 really surprises me. Well then if AA does come and do a PHX-LHR maybe it'll be a 772. Wonder if they could dovetail that with the HNL route and solve two A330 issues? That would require two frames, but I would think they could make a PHX/HNL/PHX/LHR/PHX routing work schedule-wise, no? I'm thinking it would give a shorter turn at HNL with a few hours on the ground here at PHX instead for MX. Thoughts?


The aircraft at some point would need to rotate through a station that can crew and perform maintenance checks on 777; in this case it would probably be either DFW or LAX. This is the same reason why the A330 did not exclusively fly PHX-HNL-PHX.

They could always do something like RDU where the aircraft flies a W-pattern over LHR.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:06 pm

cathay747 wrote:
Interesting insights. Thanks, didn't know these things. The thing about the 321 really surprises me. Well then if AA does come and do a PHX-LHR maybe it'll be a 772. Wonder if they could dovetail that with the HNL route and solve two A330 issues? That would require two frames, but I would think they could make a PHX/HNL/PHX/LHR/PHX routing work schedule-wise, no? I'm thinking it would give a shorter turn at HNL with a few hours on the ground here at PHX instead for MX. Thoughts?

It's possible. I'm still skeptical that AA will start serving LHR at all. It would make sense if they used the same type they're planning to operate to HNL, but it would also make sense to me if they used a 788 to LHR. A 772 might be too much airplane in addition to the BA 744, unless they downgauged the BA flight.
 
skyharborshome
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:08 pm

cathay747 wrote:
cm642 wrote:
910A wrote:
The 333 is still showing up on the AA schedule for PHX-HNL with no 333 service to CLT or PHL. When would someone expect the place holder to change?


I was just going to say, I wondered if it was being used as a placeholder.


Yeah like HA did putting in a 321 for PHX-HNL, as I learned earlier. But I don't understand WHY an airline does this. If AA hasn't made up their mind, then why not just leave the flight showing as a 757 (or in HA's case a 763)? Then make ONE change later when they decide for sure. Seems silly to me, if just from the standpoint of all the seat assignment re-accom's they have to do each time.


I do not understand that either. DL has their mid-afternoon flight (1772) switching from a 321 to a 757 on December 20. This is typically the time it converts to the A330. DL also is known for listing equipment then changing a couple of months later. I guess it is easier to add a bigger plane for things like logistics and seat selections than to downgrade to a smaller plane.
 
777PHX
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:52 pm

I don't see an Asia flight happening. Phoenix doesn't have the O&D to support an Asia flight and LAX is only a 40 minute flight away with direct service from the Big 3 network carriers and WN. Vegas has a lot that we don't including a much bigger tourism/gambling industry and one of the fastest growing states in the country.
 
cm642
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:51 am

Speaking of widebody flights don't know if this has already been mentioned but I just did a dummy booking just to see for the hell of it but the A330 now shows on Hawaiian Airlines flights between PHX-HNL starting January 2nd. (edit: Just saw earlier post!)
 
910A
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:19 pm

Saw a small paragraph in the Arizona Republic on Saturday. DOT has approved the Skywest EAS service to PRC. Six weekly flights to LAX and seven to DEN. Have to give credit to trying new destinations.
 
910A
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:31 pm

777PHX wrote:
I don't see an Asia flight happening. Phoenix doesn't have the O&D to support an Asia flight and LAX is only a 40 minute flight away with direct service from the Big 3 network carriers and WN. Vegas has a lot that we don't including a much bigger tourism/gambling industry and one of the fastest growing states in the country.


Might be flight time, but add in ground time especially at LAX it's closer to hour twenty-thirty. My dream is a Asia flight to PHX for a couple reasons, #1) - avoid immigration at LAX/SFO; I saw a piece where it's stated that PHX has one of the shortest time to go through immigration #2) don't have to count the flowers on the wall (stole this from the old Statler Bros song) while waiting for a connection. When I'm coming home, I want to get home..and not spend time in that zoo that passes for LAX.
 
777PHX
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:58 pm

910A wrote:
777PHX wrote:
I don't see an Asia flight happening. Phoenix doesn't have the O&D to support an Asia flight and LAX is only a 40 minute flight away with direct service from the Big 3 network carriers and WN. Vegas has a lot that we don't including a much bigger tourism/gambling industry and one of the fastest growing states in the country.


Might be flight time, but add in ground time especially at LAX it's closer to hour twenty-thirty. My dream is a Asia flight to PHX for a couple reasons, #1) - avoid immigration at LAX/SFO; I saw a piece where it's stated that PHX has one of the shortest time to go through immigration #2) don't have to count the flowers on the wall (stole this from the old Statler Bros song) while waiting for a connection. When I'm coming home, I want to get home..and not spend time in that zoo that passes for LAX.


That's still not a tough connection, which is the point.

cm642 wrote:
Speaking of widebody flights don't know if this has already been mentioned but I just did a dummy booking just to see for the hell of it but the A330 now shows on Hawaiian Airlines flights between PHX-HNL starting January 2nd. (edit: Just saw earlier post!)


I'm curious if the route actually warrants an A330 or if that is a product of the NEO delays, which have apparently hit HA hard.
 
MO11
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:12 pm

777PHX wrote:
cm642 wrote:
Speaking of widebody flights don't know if this has already been mentioned but I just did a dummy booking just to see for the hell of it but the A330 now shows on Hawaiian Airlines flights between PHX-HNL starting January 2nd. (edit: Just saw earlier post!)


I'm curious if the route actually warrants an A330 or if that is a product of the NEO delays, which have apparently hit HA hard.


We know the route can handle a 260-ish seat airplane. Are you saying that 294 seats will be too many and that 189 seats will be right sized?
 
777PHX
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:46 am

MO11 wrote:
777PHX wrote:
cm642 wrote:
Speaking of widebody flights don't know if this has already been mentioned but I just did a dummy booking just to see for the hell of it but the A330 now shows on Hawaiian Airlines flights between PHX-HNL starting January 2nd. (edit: Just saw earlier post!)


I'm curious if the route actually warrants an A330 or if that is a product of the NEO delays, which have apparently hit HA hard.


We know the route can handle a 260-ish seat airplane. Are you saying that 294 seats will be too many and that 189 seats will be right sized?


No, that's clearly not what I said. I was merely questioning whether HA has intended for PHX to go A330 all along or if the schedule change to the A330 was the result of their delayed A321s.

For HA's part, we know there will be official announcements of additional A321 routes as they receive deliveries. We do know the A321s were purchased for west coast routes of which PHX is one.
 
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cathay747
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:41 pm

777PHX wrote:
MO11 wrote:
777PHX wrote:


I'm curious if the route actually warrants an A330 or if that is a product of the NEO delays, which have apparently hit HA hard.


We know the route can handle a 260-ish seat airplane. Are you saying that 294 seats will be too many and that 189 seats will be right sized?


No, that's clearly not what I said. I was merely questioning whether HA has intended for PHX to go A330 all along or if the schedule change to the A330 was the result of their delayed A321s.

For HA's part, we know there will be official announcements of additional A321 routes as they receive deliveries. We do know the A321s were purchased for west coast routes of which PHX is one.


My thinking is that they intended to upgauge PHX to a 332 all along. I just can't imagine they'd be foolish enough to DOWNgauge to a 321...IMHO...when they fill the 763 so well all-year-round. Surely they'll have NO trouble filling the extra 34-ish seats! Plus, as previously mentioned, a 321 would also be a HUGE cut in cargo capacity. This is why I was and still am so baffled as to why they'd show a 321 unless they just didn't know (for some mysterious reason) if they'd have a 332 available for 01JAN.

I'm also thinking that maybe what they'll do, if they can snare a gate at an appropriate time, would be to use the 321 here to start a flight to OGG. Just the type of thing they've said they're getting the 321's for...open new, thinner markets. But maybe not, because that would of course cannibalize traffic off the HNL flight, which then makes filling those 294 seats on the 332 a bigger challenge.

Oh well, who knows, we'll just have to see. I'm just thrilled that we're gonna get A330 love here as it turned out! Looking very much forward to that lie-flat front-cabin product for our next trip!!
 
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cathay747
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:44 pm

910A wrote:
Saw a small paragraph in the Arizona Republic on Saturday. DOT has approved the Skywest EAS service to PRC. Six weekly flights to LAX and seven to DEN. Have to give credit to trying new destinations.


YAY for PRC! Jet equip. at long last. Not that the Q400's were a bad thing when Horizon ran their short-lived service. I think somebody posted earlier that SkyWest said they'd run CRJ2's on these PRC flights?

And speaking of Horizon...can somebody remind me...as to their failure...they did that on their own, right? Wasn't EAS? And so with no subsidy they just couldn't make it work profitably?
 
MO11
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:47 am

MO11 wrote:
We know the route can handle a 260-ish seat airplane. Are you saying that 294 seats will be too many and that 189 seats will be right sized?


777PHX wrote:
No, that's clearly not what I said. I was merely questioning whether HA has intended for PHX to go A330 all along or if the schedule change to the A330 was the result of their delayed A321s.


777PHX wrote:
I'm curious if the route actually warrants an A330, or if that is a product of the NEO delays, which have apparently hit HA hard.


I don't see how that could be more clear. And I'm sure the route actually warrants an A330.
 
boeing777200lr
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:18 am

whats up with the elite flights. Do they just reposition into PHX and then fly to IFP.?
 
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cathay747
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:22 pm

I saw in a separate thread somebody started just for it that we had BA219 LHR-DEN divert here yesterday (Monday) due to WX @ DEN. Too bad it didn't happen on a day with BA291 coming in here, we'd have potentially had THREE BA 744's on the ramp here simultaneously!!! Or maybe in that case they'd have diverted 219 to LAS instead.
 
910A
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:22 pm

boeing777200lr wrote:
whats up with the elite flights. Do they just reposition into PHX and then fly to IFP.?


The flight operates IFP-PHX-IFP. Elite will be gone the second the money dries up.
 
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cathay747
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:50 pm

Did I hear correctly on 12 News that something has been improved/fixed so that the Eagle RJ's won't have the ops problems in extreme heat anymore, so they won't have to cancel flights any longer?

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