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chepos
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:55 pm

Glad to see PHX RDU back, long overdue. MSY was cut back right after Katrina, a daily 319 would beat safe add.
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Vctony
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:23 am

PHX - BNA/CLE/COS/CVG/MSY/TUL are the biggest remaining holes I see (especially if they consider FLL and MIA to be the same market). They've now filled in 2 holes (OKC and RDU). I'd imagine WN's presence on BNA/CLE/MSY/TUL probably hurts their chances of getting an AA nonstop (although OKC and RDU both have daily WN service).
 
wn676
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:44 am

Vctony wrote:
PHX - BNA/CLE/COS/CVG/MSY/TUL are the biggest remaining holes I see (especially if they consider FLL and MIA to be the same market). They've now filled in 2 holes (OKC and RDU). I'd imagine WN's presence on BNA/CLE/MSY/TUL probably hurts their chances of getting an AA nonstop (although OKC and RDU both have daily WN service).


Didn’t AA attempt PHX-CLE right after the merger? Seemed like it didn’t last too long afterwards.
Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
 
Vctony
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:54 am

wn676 wrote:
Vctony wrote:
PHX - BNA/CLE/COS/CVG/MSY/TUL are the biggest remaining holes I see (especially if they consider FLL and MIA to be the same market). They've now filled in 2 holes (OKC and RDU). I'd imagine WN's presence on BNA/CLE/MSY/TUL probably hurts their chances of getting an AA nonstop (although OKC and RDU both have daily WN service).


Didn’t AA attempt PHX-CLE right after the merger? Seemed like it didn’t last too long afterwards.


AA did. I think it only lasted about 6 months or so. If I'm not mistaken it may have been shortly after UA discontinued service to on PHX-CLE.
 
MO11
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:59 am

wn676 wrote:

Didn’t AA attempt PHX-CLE right after the merger? Seemed like it didn’t last too long afterwards.


July 2015 - April 2016
 
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cathay747
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:18 pm

jplatts wrote:
alasizon wrote:
Neither CVG or BNA are within realistic range of the CR7/CR9 year-round. The year-round range drops off at around 1300 miles for an effective payload. BNA might be marginable with the CR7 but no way that CVG is. Not to mention, that is a long distance in the smaller CRJ cabin and there are no current E175s based in PHX (nor are there plans to be).


Both AS and DL previously operated regional jets on the SEA-MKE nonstop route, which is longer than the PHX-BNA and PHX-CVG nonstop routes, but both AS and DL have since upgauged their SEA-MKE nonstop flights to mainline aircraft.

There are a few nonstop routes longer than PHX-CVG that are operated on regional jets, including SEA-DAL on AS, PDX-DAL on AS, SFO-MSN on UA, and SFO-STL on UA.

American Eagle currently operates a few nonstop routes that are longer than PHX-BNA on regional jets such as DFW-YYC, DFW-YUL, and MIA-MSP.


That may be, but what he was trying to point out (I believe) is that the range with an effective payload falls during our "hot months" with our temps here in PHX obviously WAY higher than what you have in SEA, PDX, SFO etc., hence his saying "year-round range".
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wn676
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:25 pm

cathay747 wrote:
jplatts wrote:
alasizon wrote:
Neither CVG or BNA are within realistic range of the CR7/CR9 year-round. The year-round range drops off at around 1300 miles for an effective payload. BNA might be marginable with the CR7 but no way that CVG is. Not to mention, that is a long distance in the smaller CRJ cabin and there are no current E175s based in PHX (nor are there plans to be).


Both AS and DL previously operated regional jets on the SEA-MKE nonstop route, which is longer than the PHX-BNA and PHX-CVG nonstop routes, but both AS and DL have since upgauged their SEA-MKE nonstop flights to mainline aircraft.

There are a few nonstop routes longer than PHX-CVG that are operated on regional jets, including SEA-DAL on AS, PDX-DAL on AS, SFO-MSN on UA, and SFO-STL on UA.

American Eagle currently operates a few nonstop routes that are longer than PHX-BNA on regional jets such as DFW-YYC, DFW-YUL, and MIA-MSP.


That may be, but what he was trying to point out (I believe) is that the range with an effective payload falls during our "hot months" with our temps here in PHX obviously WAY higher than what you have in SEA, PDX, SFO etc., hence his saying "year-round range".


That, and SEA-MKE was launched with 175s, not CRJs.
Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
 
oosnowrat
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:47 pm

jplatts wrote:
alasizon wrote:
Neither CVG or BNA are within realistic range of the CR7/CR9 year-round. The year-round range drops off at around 1300 miles for an effective payload. BNA might be marginable with the CR7 but no way that CVG is. Not to mention, that is a long distance in the smaller CRJ cabin and there are no current E175s based in PHX (nor are there plans to be).


Both AS and DL previously operated regional jets on the SEA-MKE nonstop route, which is longer than the PHX-BNA and PHX-CVG nonstop routes, but both AS and DL have since upgauged their SEA-MKE nonstop flights to mainline aircraft.

There are a few nonstop routes longer than PHX-CVG that are operated on regional jets, including SEA-DAL on AS, PDX-DAL on AS, SFO-MSN on UA, and SFO-STL on UA.

American Eagle currently operates a few nonstop routes that are longer than PHX-BNA on regional jets such as DFW-YYC, DFW-YUL, and MIA-MSP.


Most of those routes are/were E175s, no?
 
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:49 pm

oosnowrat wrote:
jplatts wrote:
American Eagle currently operates a few nonstop routes that are longer than PHX-BNA on regional jets such as DFW-YYC, DFW-YUL, and MIA-MSP.


Most of those routes are/were E175s, no?


American Eagle operates DFW-YYC, DFW-YUL, and MIA-MSP nonstop flights using E175 regional jets.
 
wn676
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:05 pm

jplatts wrote:
oosnowrat wrote:
jplatts wrote:
American Eagle currently operates a few nonstop routes that are longer than PHX-BNA on regional jets such as DFW-YYC, DFW-YUL, and MIA-MSP.


Most of those routes are/were E175s, no?


American Eagle operates DFW-YYC, DFW-YUL, and MIA-MSP nonstop flights using E175 regional jets.


But the question isn’t whether the E175 can do it, it’s if the CR7/9 can. And all indications seem to point to it not being feasible.
Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
 
Osubuckeyes
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:23 pm

Vctony wrote:
wn676 wrote:
Vctony wrote:
PHX - BNA/CLE/COS/CVG/MSY/TUL are the biggest remaining holes I see (especially if they consider FLL and MIA to be the same market). They've now filled in 2 holes (OKC and RDU). I'd imagine WN's presence on BNA/CLE/MSY/TUL probably hurts their chances of getting an AA nonstop (although OKC and RDU both have daily WN service).


Didn’t AA attempt PHX-CLE right after the merger? Seemed like it didn’t last too long afterwards.


AA did. I think it only lasted about 6 months or so. If I'm not mistaken it may have been shortly after UA discontinued service to on PHX-CLE.


As another poster said April 2015-June 2016 so a bit over a year. After UA discontinued service I believe F9 was the first to jump in shortly followed by AA then WN. F9 & AA eventually cut, and now F9 is back 4x weekly, and WN is up to 1x daily, 2x seasonally (thought I had seen part of 2018 at 3x but could be mistaken.)
 
alasizon
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:25 pm

jplatts wrote:
oosnowrat wrote:
jplatts wrote:
American Eagle currently operates a few nonstop routes that are longer than PHX-BNA on regional jets such as DFW-YYC, DFW-YUL, and MIA-MSP.


Most of those routes are/were E175s, no?


American Eagle operates DFW-YYC, DFW-YUL, and MIA-MSP nonstop flights using E175 regional jets.


All of which operate north/south for the most part and as such aren't subject to the strength of the winds in the winter.

cathay747 wrote:
That may be, but what he was trying to point out (I believe) is that the range with an effective payload falls during our "hot months" with our temps here in PHX obviously WAY higher than what you have in SEA, PDX, SFO etc., hence his saying "year-round range".


My point was actually winter, summer can usually carry a decent payload of around 18k-19k. CR9s can only carry a bit over 19k worth of fuel while E175s are a bit over 20k. When flying E/W during the winter, the fuel can take a bit of a hit on the performance of the aircraft. Also, the weather west of the Appalachians south of the Ohio River tends to be widespread which typically means the distance from the destination to a viable alternate is a bit longer than normal.

For example, PHX-MEM during the winter on the CR9 is typically weight restricted to a payload closer to 16k assuming an alternate (which is probably about 60% of the time E/B). Adding another couple hundred miles to BNA will likely drop it down some. W/B the flight is restricted a little less assuming the runway is only wet or dry.
Its not uncommon
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cathay747
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:49 pm

alasizon wrote:
jplatts wrote:
oosnowrat wrote:

Most of those routes are/were E175s, no?


American Eagle operates DFW-YYC, DFW-YUL, and MIA-MSP nonstop flights using E175 regional jets.


All of which operate north/south for the most part and as such aren't subject to the strength of the winds in the winter.

cathay747 wrote:
That may be, but what he was trying to point out (I believe) is that the range with an effective payload falls during our "hot months" with our temps here in PHX obviously WAY higher than what you have in SEA, PDX, SFO etc., hence his saying "year-round range".


My point was actually winter, summer can usually carry a decent payload of around 18k-19k. CR9s can only carry a bit over 19k worth of fuel while E175s are a bit over 20k. When flying E/W during the winter, the fuel can take a bit of a hit on the performance of the aircraft. Also, the weather west of the Appalachians south of the Ohio River tends to be widespread which typically means the distance from the destination to a viable alternate is a bit longer than normal.

For example, PHX-MEM during the winter on the CR9 is typically weight restricted to a payload closer to 16k assuming an alternate (which is probably about 60% of the time E/B). Adding another couple hundred miles to BNA will likely drop it down some. W/B the flight is restricted a little less assuming the runway is only wet or dry.
Its not uncommon


Ah OK got it. Never thought about winter winds aloft; I figured you meant t/o field performance during hot months.
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77H
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:22 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
Thank you for the insight couple of questions.
- What are the pros & cons of converting IWA from Class D to Class C? Why would their be resistance to such a change

Well, it depends on who you ask, and I'll preface this by saying that I'm not an expert, so I'll speak to the best of my abilities. From an ATC perspective, Class C provides increased safety, particularly for approach controllers. Class C doesn't have the same entry requirements as a Class B, but it requires pilots to at least be acknowledged by ATC prior to entering the airspace. Class D allows nonparticipating to transit the airspace, thus, no communications with ATC. This can be detrimental for obvious reasons, particularly with commercial carriers involved. Several years ago, IWA had a massive amount of TCAS RAs (most due to the Fighter Combat guys), and several were caused by nonparticipating aircraft. I seem to recall G4 having 60+ RAs in the span of a couple of months, which was troubling, to say the least. Some procedures were changed and things improved significantly, but an airspace redesign is the more definitive long-term solution.

The cons are mostly from the perspective of the private pilot. Some pilots simply don't want to talk to ATC, even for simple VFR flight following. Just about any changes to airspace results in a lawsuit from AOPA, particularly if the change expands controlled airspace. It can result in a very lengthy process that can take years. Nearby residents and sometimes municipalities will often challenge changes in court out of fear of increased noise. All of that ends up being a con from the FAA's perspective, because litigating these challenges is extremely expensive and very time-consuming.

INFINITI329 wrote:
- Who it would it be to get the FAA to go from a FCT to a FAA tower? Would it be the Arizona Congressional Delegation or the FAA themselves seeing that they have the numbers in front of them?

I'm honestly not sure, and I don't think very many people know the answer to that question. Theoretically, the FAA could simply fail to extend SERCO's contract, but the problem is the lack of allocated funding for FAA controllers to staff the facility. It isn't an impossible solution, but as of a few years ago, it seemed that very few people wanted to take on the issue (I suspect nothing has changed). It isn't that the SERCO controllers are substandard, but at some point, it seems to me that it's the FAA's responsibility to staff busier terminal facilities to ensure high standards. I believe that's also what the flying public expects. Ultimately it's a political issue, but whether it requires congressional action or not seems unclear.


It is mind boggling to me that there are pilots out there that don’t want to talk to ATC. I did my private at IWA through ASU’s program and during the year and a half I was there before transferring there were multiple mid-air collisions of trainer aircraft that saw a lot of young lives lost needlessly when there is a resource available offering another set of eyes to pilots for free.

IWA is unique as far as air traffic profiles as it now has a sizeable airline operation, sees frequent military visitors, business jets headed to the MTX facilities there (Cessna and Embraer I believe) as well as a host of flight schools. Mixing low time student pilots flying small, slow trainers with commercial, private jet and military traffic invites disaster. I haven’t flown in a number of years but every time I did I was getting flight following no matter how sparse air traffic in the area was. I’m all for turning IWA into a Class C and making the sky safer for everyone.

77H
 
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:25 pm

77H wrote:
It is mind boggling to me that there are pilots out there that don’t want to talk to ATC. I did my private at IWA through ASU’s program and during the year and a half I was there before transferring there were multiple mid-air collisions of trainer aircraft that saw a lot of young lives lost needlessly when there is a resource available offering another set of eyes to pilots for free.

IWA is unique as far as air traffic profiles as it now has a sizeable airline operation, sees frequent military visitors, business jets headed to the MTX facilities there (Cessna and Embraer I believe) as well as a host of flight schools. Mixing low time student pilots flying small, slow trainers with commercial, private jet and military traffic invites disaster. I haven’t flown in a number of years but every time I did I was getting flight following no matter how sparse air traffic in the area was. I’m all for turning IWA into a Class C and making the sky safer for everyone.

77H

Yeah, I guess talking to ATC can be intimidating for some pilots, but it really shouldn't be. VFR flight following is (generally) very little effort, and most controllers aren't bothered by it...it is part of the job, after all. The US is one of the last places on earth that offers a free ATC service, so pilots may as well use it.

I can understand the resistance of some to making IWA Class C airspace, but at some point it's going to be unsafe without some major changes. I already think that the airspace in the valley is fairly dangerous to begin with. IWA has an increasing number of commercial movements — Allegiant will be up to 40 departures on Saturdays this spring. It's no longer just a general aviation airport with a handful of commercial movements, so something is going to be to change.
 
Lennundus
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:24 pm

*AA MSN-PHX APR 0.0>1.0[0]
AA OKC-PHX APR 1.1>2[0.9]

From this week's OAG changes it looks like AA has extended the season for MSN-PHX and they have gone 2x daily on OKC-PHX which is a fairly recent route that has competition from WN.
 
skyharborshome
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:57 pm

77H wrote:
It is mind boggling to me that there are pilots out there that don’t want to talk to ATC. I did my private at IWA through ASU’s program and during the year and a half I was there before transferring there were multiple mid-air collisions of trainer aircraft that saw a lot of young lives lost needlessly when there is a resource available offering another set of eyes to pilots for free.

IWA is unique as far as air traffic profiles as it now has a sizeable airline operation, sees frequent military visitors, business jets headed to the MTX facilities there (Cessna and Embraer I believe) as well as a host of flight schools. Mixing low time student pilots flying small, slow trainers with commercial, private jet and military traffic invites disaster. I haven’t flown in a number of years but every time I did I was getting flight following no matter how sparse air traffic in the area was. I’m all for turning IWA into a Class C and making the sky safer for everyone.

77H


First, I agree with you. Coming back from Sedona on Saturday I had 2 very busy controllers including one who told a student to stay out of Class B airspace and I was already cleared through. What did the student do? A 180 degree turn across the transition route which caused a traffic alert. I already had him in sight however the controller was a little miffed. This stuff happens all the time outside of IWA which would be circumvented with Class C.

I have some very close friends that are capable pilots however they hate talking to controllers in general. They had bad experiences years ago and for some reason think controllers are not on their side which we know is not true. I try to convince them all the time that we are lucky to have good controllers and they are there to help. A couple of my friends actually fly over Phoenix Bravo then turn back to get to the actual surrounding airports just to avoid talking to approach. Maybe it is the actual word "control" they do no like. Either was this topic came up this weekend and they pretty much told me that if Charlie happens, they will limit their time in Phoenix. It baffles me however I must admit I am in the minority on this one. Lots of GA pilots want to talk to their friends in the plane and not have to worry with ATC. I am not sure how we get beyond that.
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:40 pm

Lennundus wrote:
*AA MSN-PHX APR 0.0>1.0[0]
AA OKC-PHX APR 1.1>2[0.9]

From this week's OAG changes it looks like AA has extended the season for MSN-PHX and they have gone 2x daily on OKC-PHX which is a fairly recent route that has competition from WN.

The 2nd OKC flight is going mainline as well on a 319. I'm wondering if AA will just keep extending these flights monthly if bookings stay strong or if they're just utilizing aircraft prior to ramping up for summer flying? OKC-PHX has always been popular on WN, I remember when it used to be 3x daily before one of the flights got shifted to LAS. Glad to see AA making a go of it though!
 
jplatts
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:30 am

There are still some opportunities for further expansion by WN at PHX, including the following:
  • Extending PHX-CVG nonstop service to daily year-round nonstop service
  • Adding PHX-BDL, PHX-MEM, and PHX-IAD nonstop service
  • Adding PHX-LGB nonstop service if WN can get extra slots at LGB
  • Adding nonstop service to Hawaiian destinations
  • Adding nonstop international service to CUN, PVR, and SJD from PHX
 
93Sierra
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:27 am

There is already Phx lgb on aa
 
jplatts
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:40 am

93Sierra wrote:
There is already Phx lgb on aa


I know that AA already serves LGB nonstop, but there are many WN frequent flyers in Greater Phoenix who prefer to fly on WN since WN has nonstop service to some domestic destinations that aren't served nonstop from PHX on AA. LGB is also the only California airport served by WN that doesn't already have nonstop service to PHX on WN.

WN is likely to add LGB-PHX nonstop service if WN gets enough slots at LGB.
 
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:21 am

jplatts wrote:
There are still some opportunities for further expansion by WN at PHX, including the following:
  • Extending PHX-CVG nonstop service to daily year-round nonstop service
  • Adding PHX-BDL, PHX-MEM, and PHX-IAD nonstop service
  • Adding PHX-LGB nonstop service if WN can get extra slots at LGB
  • Adding nonstop service to Hawaiian destinations
  • Adding nonstop international service to CUN, PVR, and SJD from PHX


As much as I like to see expansion in PHX, I believe it's better for AA rather than WN. To have a large network carrier that can provide options all over the USA, North & South America, Europe and Asia is better than a carrier that cant even get you out of the continent. I would rather have options to connect all over the world than be restricted.
UA Gold 2019, DL Silver 2019
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chrisair
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:50 am

Any pilot that thinks ATC isn’t on their side shouldn’t be flying. After a dead radio on a flight I was on with a friend, I got to see just how much they were on our side. It wasn’t just PHX high and low sectors, but it was ABQ and LAX centers too. Makes you appreciate it a whole lot more when stuff is going TU and you’re relying on an emotionless voice from a dark room telling you what to do.

BA744PHX wrote:
To have a large network carrier that can provide options all over the USA, North & South America, Europe and Asia is better than a carrier that cant even get you out of the continent. I would rather have options to connect all over the world than be restricted.


I’d rather have an option to bring someone with me on any WN flight I take for $5.60. No extra fees, no change fee and no fuss. Book an hour before departure and they’re on the flight if there are seats.
 
AntonioMartin
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:06 am

BA744PHX wrote:
jplatts wrote:
[*]Adding nonstop service to Hawaiian destinations
[

Now there's an idea...WN 737s non stop Phoenix-Honolulu, versus Hawaiian's 767's..
 
MO11
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:17 pm

AntonioMartin wrote:
BA744PHX wrote:
jplatts wrote:
[*]Adding nonstop service to Hawaiian destinations
[

Now there's an idea...WN 737s non stop Phoenix-Honolulu, versus Hawaiian's 767's..


Those have been gone for a month.

I'll take the 737 to Hawaii any day over the 757 or widebody.
 
alasizon
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:43 pm

MO11 wrote:
AntonioMartin wrote:
BA744PHX wrote:

Now there's an idea...WN 737s non stop Phoenix-Honolulu, versus Hawaiian's 767's..


Those have been gone for a month.

I'll take the 737 to Hawaii any day over the 757 or widebody.


Rumor has it, the MAX can't do PHX-Hawaii year-round which is why AA chose to move forward with the NEO for PHX-Hawaii.
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MO11
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:04 pm

alasizon wrote:
MO11 wrote:
AntonioMartin wrote:
Now there's an idea...WN 737s non stop Phoenix-Honolulu, versus Hawaiian's 767's..


Those have been gone for a month.

I'll take the 737 to Hawaii any day over the 757 or widebody.


Rumor has it, the MAX can't do PHX-Hawaii year-round which is why AA chose to move forward with the NEO for PHX-Hawaii.


I really liked the Aloha flight to Maui. Since I normally have a long layover at HNL, the stop at SNA wasn't intolerable.
 
INFINITI329
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:05 pm

jplatts wrote:
There are still some opportunities for further expansion by WN at PHX, including the following:
  • Extending PHX-CVG nonstop service to daily year-round nonstop service
  • Adding PHX-BDL, PHX-MEM, and PHX-IAD nonstop service
  • Adding PHX-LGB nonstop service if WN can get extra slots at LGB
  • Adding nonstop service to Hawaiian destinations
  • Adding nonstop international service to CUN, PVR, and SJD from PHX


- I dont think PHX-BDL will happen before PHX-BOS, PHX-MEM...I don't see that happening....PHX-IAD anything into capital probably could work.
- Hawaiian-PHX is highly doubtful.. unless WN changes its baggage policy but then it is still probably a 51% no
- Almost guaranteed the Mexican destinations will happen, it's a pity that hasn't already.


AntonioMartin wrote:
BA744PHX wrote:
jplatts wrote:
[*]Adding nonstop service to Hawaiian destinations
[

Now there's an idea...WN 737s non stop Phoenix-Honolulu, versus Hawaiian's 767's..


A330s now.even more of reason to fly HA. Unless it is scheduling preferences i doubt most people originating in PHX would just WN over HA.
 
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:24 pm

MO11 wrote:
AntonioMartin wrote:
BA744PHX wrote:

Now there's an idea...WN 737s non stop Phoenix-Honolulu, versus Hawaiian's 767's..


Those have been gone for a month.

I'll take the 737 to Hawaii any day over the 757 or widebody.


I would much rather fly on the HA A330 over a legacy narrowbody. No thanks.
 
jplatts
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:24 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
jplatts wrote:
There are still some opportunities for further expansion by WN at PHX, including the following:
  • Extending PHX-CVG nonstop service to daily year-round nonstop service
  • Adding PHX-BDL, PHX-MEM, and PHX-IAD nonstop service
  • Adding PHX-LGB nonstop service if WN can get extra slots at LGB
  • Adding nonstop international service to CUN, PVR, and SJD from PHX


- I dont think PHX-BDL will happen before PHX-BOS, PHX-MEM...I don't see that happening....PHX-IAD anything into capital probably could work.
- Almost guaranteed the Mexican destinations will happen, it's a pity that hasn't already.


I agree that WN could bring back PHX-BOS nonstop service, and WN is now bigger at BOS than was the case back when WN last operated PHX-BOS nonstop service. In addition, there are also many WN frequent flyers in Greater Phoenix who prefer to fly on WN over AA or B6. WN also already operates PHX-EWR nonstop service that is in competition with B6 PHX-JFK nonstop service.

MEM is in a big enough market to support nonstop service to PHX on both WN and AA since there are actually a few markets smaller than MEM that already have nonstop service to PHX on both AA and WN, including ABQ, BOI, DSM, OMA, RNO, and GEG.

The international arrivals facility at PHX and the international departure gates at PHX are both in the same terminal as the WN domestic gates at PHX. In addition, there is already a bridge on the behind-security side of Terminal 4 at PHX that connects the international gates in Concourse B at PHX to the WN domestic gates in Concourses C and D at PHX, so passengers would be able to connect onto international flights from domestic flights at PHX on WN without having to re-clear security if WN adds nonstop international flights out of PHX.

BDL is one of the top destinations traveled to from PHX that isn't currently served nonstop from either PHX or AZA on any airline, and WN or AA could add PHX-BDL nonstop service.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9526
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:18 pm

BA744PHX wrote:
jplatts wrote:
There are still some opportunities for further expansion by WN at PHX, including the following:
  • Extending PHX-CVG nonstop service to daily year-round nonstop service
  • Adding PHX-BDL, PHX-MEM, and PHX-IAD nonstop service
  • Adding PHX-LGB nonstop service if WN can get extra slots at LGB
  • Adding nonstop service to Hawaiian destinations
  • Adding nonstop international service to CUN, PVR, and SJD from PHX


As much as I like to see expansion in PHX, I believe it's better for AA rather than WN. To have a large network carrier that can provide options all over the USA, North & South America, Europe and Asia is better than a carrier that cant even get you out of the continent. I would rather have options to connect all over the world than be restricted.


Which is great if you're an AA/OneWorld FF. For the rest of us, WN offers a nice alternative.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
wn676
Posts: 1706
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:33 am

Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:12 pm

jplatts wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
jplatts wrote:
There are still some opportunities for further expansion by WN at PHX, including the following:
  • Extending PHX-CVG nonstop service to daily year-round nonstop service
  • Adding PHX-BDL, PHX-MEM, and PHX-IAD nonstop service
  • Adding PHX-LGB nonstop service if WN can get extra slots at LGB
  • Adding nonstop international service to CUN, PVR, and SJD from PHX


- I dont think PHX-BDL will happen before PHX-BOS, PHX-MEM...I don't see that happening....PHX-IAD anything into capital probably could work.
- Almost guaranteed the Mexican destinations will happen, it's a pity that hasn't already.


I agree that WN could bring back PHX-BOS nonstop service, and WN is now bigger at BOS than was the case back when WN last operated PHX-BOS nonstop service. In addition, there are also many WN frequent flyers in Greater Phoenix who prefer to fly on WN over AA or B6. WN also already operates PHX-EWR nonstop service that is in competition with B6 PHX-JFK nonstop service.

MEM is in a big enough market to support nonstop service to PHX on both WN and AA since there are actually a few markets smaller than MEM that already have nonstop service to PHX on both AA and WN, including ABQ, BOI, DSM, OMA, RNO, and GEG.

The international arrivals facility at PHX and the international departure gates at PHX are both in the same terminal as the WN domestic gates at PHX. In addition, there is already a bridge on the behind-security side of Terminal 4 at PHX that connects the international gates in Concourse B at PHX to the WN domestic gates in Concourses C and D at PHX, so passengers would be able to connect onto international flights from domestic flights at PHX on WN without having to re-clear security if WN adds nonstop international flights out of PHX.

BDL is one of the top destinations traveled to from PHX that isn't currently served nonstop from either PHX or AZA on any airline, and WN or AA could add PHX-BDL nonstop service.


International flights can depart from any gate, so the connector bridge between N4 and S4 is of little value to customers making domestic-international connections. The FIS dumps you right across from the C checkpoint though, so they’ve got that going for them.

If WN were to add international flights to their PHX portfolio, I’m not even sure if there’s enough room on the common-use gates to accommodate them. If/when S1 is built with an FIS, I’d bet on WN launching them at that point.
Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
 
alasizon
Posts: 2035
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:34 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
Which is great if you're an AA/OneWorld FF. For the rest of us, WN offers a nice alternative.


Large City expansion by WN is great for all, but the expansion by AA into smaller cities probably is a bigger benefit overall. In my opinion, its a bigger benefit for AA to open up a new regional route (say PHX-BZN) than it is for WN to add PHX-LGB service.
Manager on Duty & Tower Planner
 
AZLiam
Posts: 12
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:37 pm

Contractor chosen to build Southwest Airlines' $310M Sky Harbor addition

Excerpts:

Earlier this month, Phoenix City Council named St. Louis, Missouri-based McCarthy Building Cos. Inc. as general contractor for the addition of the eighth and final concourse at Terminal 4 in Sky Harbor. The project is valued at $310 million.

The new, 130,000-square-foot concourse will include eight new gates for use by Southwest Airlines, Sky Harbor’s second largest carrier, and will include new facilities for both air travelers and airlines.

Some of the other aspects to the project include:

Development of shell spaces for retail and food and beverage concessions
A new bridge to connect the South concourses to the North concourses on the West side to Terminal 4
A new transfer bridge to connect the new concourse to the existing D concourse
Additional ticket counters
New baggage handling systems
An additional baggage claim carousel to support the additional gates and associated travelers.

Construction is expected to begin in May 2019 and is slated to finish during the first quarter of 2022. The architects on the project include SmithGroup and Corgan.


Rendering included in the article: https://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2018/12/19/contractor-chosen-to-build-southwest-airlines-310m.html
 
wn676
Posts: 1706
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:33 am

Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:48 pm

AZLiam wrote:
Contractor chosen to build Southwest Airlines' $310M Sky Harbor addition

Excerpts:

Earlier this month, Phoenix City Council named St. Louis, Missouri-based McCarthy Building Cos. Inc. as general contractor for the addition of the eighth and final concourse at Terminal 4 in Sky Harbor. The project is valued at $310 million.

The new, 130,000-square-foot concourse will include eight new gates for use by Southwest Airlines, Sky Harbor’s second largest carrier, and will include new facilities for both air travelers and airlines.

Some of the other aspects to the project include:

Development of shell spaces for retail and food and beverage concessions
A new bridge to connect the South concourses to the North concourses on the West side to Terminal 4
A new transfer bridge to connect the new concourse to the existing D concourse
Additional ticket counters
New baggage handling systems
An additional baggage claim carousel to support the additional gates and associated travelers.

Construction is expected to begin in May 2019 and is slated to finish during the first quarter of 2022. The architects on the project include SmithGroup and Corgan.


Rendering included in the article: https://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2018/12/19/contractor-chosen-to-build-southwest-airlines-310m.html


Funny how the renderings don’t show the connector bridge. Also...no IAF?
Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
 
alasizon
Posts: 2035
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:09 am

wn676 wrote:
Funny how the renderings don’t show the connector bridge. Also...no IAF?


AKAIK, there was never a plan to add a new FIS. Rather discussions have revolved around giving up gates in S4 in exchange for conversion of existing gates on N4 to Common-Use & connecting them into the FIS.
Manager on Duty & Tower Planner
 
Vctony
Posts: 622
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 1999 10:51 am

Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:29 am

wn676 wrote:
AZLiam wrote:
Contractor chosen to build Southwest Airlines' $310M Sky Harbor addition

Excerpts:

Earlier this month, Phoenix City Council named St. Louis, Missouri-based McCarthy Building Cos. Inc. as general contractor for the addition of the eighth and final concourse at Terminal 4 in Sky Harbor. The project is valued at $310 million.

The new, 130,000-square-foot concourse will include eight new gates for use by Southwest Airlines, Sky Harbor’s second largest carrier, and will include new facilities for both air travelers and airlines.

Some of the other aspects to the project include:

Development of shell spaces for retail and food and beverage concessions
A new bridge to connect the South concourses to the North concourses on the West side to Terminal 4
A new transfer bridge to connect the new concourse to the existing D concourse
Additional ticket counters
New baggage handling systems
An additional baggage claim carousel to support the additional gates and associated travelers.

Construction is expected to begin in May 2019 and is slated to finish during the first quarter of 2022. The architects on the project include SmithGroup and Corgan.


Rendering included in the article: https://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2018/12/19/contractor-chosen-to-build-southwest-airlines-310m.html


Funny how the renderings don’t show the connector bridge. Also...no IAF?


The connector bridge will go between N2 and S2 (essentially behind the Starbucks). It's actually in the rendering (right in front of the parking garage).

I believe the thinking surrounding locating the bridge between N2 and S2 is that it would make restaurants / amenities on both the N and S side more easily accessible to travelers, would provide for a common exit for N1/N2/S1/S2 into the main concourse of T4, and allow the current A and D security checkpoints to serve travelers on both sides.
 
alasizon
Posts: 2035
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:40 am

Vctony wrote:
The connector bridge will go between N2 and S2 (essentially behind the Starbucks).

I believe the thinking surrounding locating the bridge between N2 and S2 is that it would make restaurants / amenities on both the N and S side more easily accessible to travelers, would provide for a common exit for N1/N2/S1/S2 into the main concourse of T4, and allow the current A and D security checkpoints to serve travelers on both sides.


Do you have a source for this? I see in the drawings something that could be it but I struggle to see how this would be feasible between it conflicting with the SkyTrain as well as the spiral entrance/exit to the T4 parking garage. On the North side, it would have to meet up right in the middle of the walkway between N1 & N2 otherwise you would lose part of the existing moving walkway. Seems like an idea that is more of a hassle that just keeping the walkway between N1 & S1
Manager on Duty & Tower Planner
 
User avatar
kearnet
Posts: 345
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 11:56 am

Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:12 am

alasizon wrote:
Vctony wrote:
The connector bridge will go between N2 and S2 (essentially behind the Starbucks).

I believe the thinking surrounding locating the bridge between N2 and S2 is that it would make restaurants / amenities on both the N and S side more easily accessible to travelers, would provide for a common exit for N1/N2/S1/S2 into the main concourse of T4, and allow the current A and D security checkpoints to serve travelers on both sides.


Do you have a source for this? I see in the drawings something that could be it but I struggle to see how this would be feasible between it conflicting with the SkyTrain as well as the spiral entrance/exit to the T4 parking garage. On the North side, it would have to meet up right in the middle of the walkway between N1 & N2 otherwise you would lose part of the existing moving walkway. Seems like an idea that is more of a hassle that just keeping the walkway between N1 & S1


I'm not sure about being closer to restaurants but a quick study on Google Earth shows why they're not simply doing a straight across connection the way they did on the East Side. If you'll forgive my lack of PS skills, I put together some quick diagrams to show why and where the actual connector is going to go and how it'll fit.

The first problem is there are unmovable support structures on the N/W walkway corner (Green circle) , sure they could tack it on to the west end but that would look odd and blocky.

The second issue is that on the new south side, as the concourse level is one level below the Skytrain platform level (red circle), If the south side connector were to ramp down to the concourse level it'd be way to steep and not provide clearance for the skytrain (yellow circle).

Now as I also illustrated they could overcome this with a mezzanine for the new walkway but that would add expense in materials and having to build vertical access with elevators/escalators between new concourse and said mezzanine level.

Image

So while it's hard to tell from the drawing from the article, what I can see them doing one of 2 things.

1. They're going to use the gap between the parking spiral ramp and that west garage to link the two sides together post security. there is enough room at the concourse level to make it under the skytrain tracks and over the upper roadway.

Image

Image

2. The other thing they could do is similar to was BOS did to join the two sides of their Terminal C which used to have separate security check points for each side into one unified check point and allow post security cross over.

Image


I'm fairly confident it'll be the former and not the latter, but we'll have to wait and see
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AZLiam
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:46 pm

Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:39 am

Another article states:

The new concourse will include approximately 130,000 square feet configured with apron and passenger levels. The concourse will include the development of shell spaces for retail and food and beverage concessions. There will be a new connector bridge to connect the South concourses to the North concourses on the West side to Terminal 4 that will span Sky Harbor Blvd., as well as a new transfer bridge to connect the new concourse to the existing D concourse. In addition, the project will include terminal processor improvements, expansion of the existing checkpoint D, additional ticket counters, and new baggage handling systems along with an additional a baggage claim carousel to support the additional gates and associated travelers.


https://azbigmedia.com/mccarthy-picked-as-gc-for-310m-sky-harbor-expansion/
 
MrPeanut
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:36 pm

Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:36 pm

I am surprised they did not carry over the high ceiling concept of Terminal D over to the new terminal. It’s amazing how different the feel is inside Terminal D versus the Terminal C concourses.
 
Vctony
Posts: 622
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 1999 10:51 am

Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:30 pm

A map of the connector location (with a label of N2 - S2 connector) is on slide 13 of this document:
https://www.phoenix.gov/financesite/Sol ... .22.18.pdf

It appears it is actually going to tie into the main terminal building similar to the connector bridge from the FIS. My source told me that the exits from N2 and S2 to the main concourse will be moved from their current locations adjacent to the security checkpoints to an area adjacent to Starbucks on the West side of the building (similar to the FIS exit adjacent to what was formerly Lola's Coffee but will now be Dunkin' Donuts).
 
Vctony
Posts: 622
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 1999 10:51 am

Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:42 pm

kearnet wrote:
alasizon wrote:
Vctony wrote:
The connector bridge will go between N2 and S2 (essentially behind the Starbucks).

I believe the thinking surrounding locating the bridge between N2 and S2 is that it would make restaurants / amenities on both the N and S side more easily accessible to travelers, would provide for a common exit for N1/N2/S1/S2 into the main concourse of T4, and allow the current A and D security checkpoints to serve travelers on both sides.


Do you have a source for this? I see in the drawings something that could be it but I struggle to see how this would be feasible between it conflicting with the SkyTrain as well as the spiral entrance/exit to the T4 parking garage. On the North side, it would have to meet up right in the middle of the walkway between N1 & N2 otherwise you would lose part of the existing moving walkway. Seems like an idea that is more of a hassle that just keeping the walkway between N1 & S1


I'm not sure about being closer to restaurants but a quick study on Google Earth shows why they're not simply doing a straight across connection the way they did on the East Side. If you'll forgive my lack of PS skills, I put together some quick diagrams to show why and where the actual connector is going to go and how it'll fit.

The first problem is there are unmovable support structures on the N/W walkway corner (Green circle) , sure they could tack it on to the west end but that would look odd and blocky.

The second issue is that on the new south side, as the concourse level is one level below the Skytrain platform level (red circle), If the south side connector were to ramp down to the concourse level it'd be way to steep and not provide clearance for the skytrain (yellow circle).

Now as I also illustrated they could overcome this with a mezzanine for the new walkway but that would add expense in materials and having to build vertical access with elevators/escalators between new concourse and said mezzanine level.

Image

So while it's hard to tell from the drawing from the article, what I can see them doing one of 2 things.

1. They're going to use the gap between the parking spiral ramp and that west garage to link the two sides together post security. there is enough room at the concourse level to make it under the skytrain tracks and over the upper roadway.

Image

Image

2. The other thing they could do is similar to was BOS did to join the two sides of their Terminal C which used to have separate security check points for each side into one unified check point and allow post security cross over.

Image


I'm fairly confident it'll be the former and not the latter, but we'll have to wait and see


From what I heard it won't be #2 but close. The security checkpoints will be separate but they will feed into the same connector hallway (with the security exit adjacent to Starbucks). Your map is pretty spot on otherwise.
 
skyharborshome
Posts: 354
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2005 11:19 am

Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:13 pm

Had a nice long chat with one of the navigators at the airport and she said they took a tour yesterday of the new Terminal 3 South. According to her they plan to open the second week of January however she thinks it will be a miracle if that happens. There is still a lot of work to do and the cleanup will be massive. However she says the entire terminal is beautiful and that the new sky club is absolutely magnificent. Looks like we are less than a month away!
Fly CHD!
 
skyharborshome
Posts: 354
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2005 11:19 am

Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:28 pm

I was all excited to post about a strange visitor to our amazing airport. A Transavia 738 was parked at the gate which I believe would have been a first. On closer inspection, it is wearing “Sun Country Airlines” titles even though nothing else has been repainted. Might be a temp lease since registration is still European. Would research more however I have to get out of here.
Fly CHD!
 
910A
Posts: 1824
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:11 am

Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:39 pm

skyharborshome wrote:
I was all excited to post about a strange visitor to our amazing airport. A Transavia 738 was parked at the gate which I believe would have been a first. On closer inspection, it is wearing “Sun Country Airlines” titles even though nothing else has been repainted. Might be a temp lease since registration is still European. Would research more however I have to get out of here.


This happens every year..SY picks up Transavia gets for the busy winter season here in the states.
 
alasizon
Posts: 2035
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:47 pm

skyharborshome wrote:
Had a nice long chat with one of the navigators at the airport and she said they took a tour yesterday of the new Terminal 3 South. According to her they plan to open the second week of January however she thinks it will be a miracle if that happens. There is still a lot of work to do and the cleanup will be massive. However she says the entire terminal is beautiful and that the new sky club is absolutely magnificent. Looks like we are less than a month away!


Today was the evac and passenger flow test so I don't see why we couldn't make it by the end of January.
Manager on Duty & Tower Planner
 
skyharborshome
Posts: 354
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2005 11:19 am

Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:14 pm

alasizon wrote:
skyharborshome wrote:
Had a nice long chat with one of the navigators at the airport and she said they took a tour yesterday of the new Terminal 3 South. According to her they plan to open the second week of January however she thinks it will be a miracle if that happens. There is still a lot of work to do and the cleanup will be massive. However she says the entire terminal is beautiful and that the new sky club is absolutely magnificent. Looks like we are less than a month away!


Today was the evac and passenger flow test so I don't see why we couldn't make it by the end of January.


That is great to hear! Wish it would have been ready for the holidays however most passengers do not even notice.

So I assume one night the aircraft land at north and are towed to south or will they have a cutover time where all aircraft after that time lands and taxis to south and they run both sides until all planes depart?
Fly CHD!
 
alasizon
Posts: 2035
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:26 pm

skyharborshome wrote:
alasizon wrote:
skyharborshome wrote:
Had a nice long chat with one of the navigators at the airport and she said they took a tour yesterday of the new Terminal 3 South. According to her they plan to open the second week of January however she thinks it will be a miracle if that happens. There is still a lot of work to do and the cleanup will be massive. However she says the entire terminal is beautiful and that the new sky club is absolutely magnificent. Looks like we are less than a month away!


Today was the evac and passenger flow test so I don't see why we couldn't make it by the end of January.


That is great to hear! Wish it would have been ready for the holidays however most passengers do not even notice.

So I assume one night the aircraft land at north and are towed to south or will they have a cutover time where all aircraft after that time lands and taxis to south and they run both sides until all planes depart?


Traditionally, RONs will be towed over and then depart from the new terminal while the red-eyes will depart from the old gates. However, due to the multiple moves required for all the different airlines, my guess is that some will move one day and others on a different day.
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MrPeanut
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:36 pm

Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:06 pm

alasizon wrote:
skyharborshome wrote:
alasizon wrote:

Today was the evac and passenger flow test so I don't see why we couldn't make it by the end of January.


That is great to hear! Wish it would have been ready for the holidays however most passengers do not even notice.

So I assume one night the aircraft land at north and are towed to south or will they have a cutover time where all aircraft after that time lands and taxis to south and they run both sides until all planes depart?


Traditionally, RONs will be towed over and then depart from the new terminal while the red-eyes will depart from the old gates. However, due to the multiple moves required for all the different airlines, my guess is that some will move one day and others on a different day.


So is everyone supposed to move out of T2 immediately upon opening of the South Concourse, or are they going to renovate the north first and then move over UA & AS from T2?

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