cm642
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:04 am

alasizon wrote:
cm642 wrote:
Partially addressing the design flaws you speak of one of the reasons why I like 3F is while yes that leaves 48 vacant gates in T4, you could potentially add a 5th concourse to the west on the north side of the new terminal as well as expand the linear concourse on the south side. Then those 48 vacant gates or concourses on the north side of T4 could be demolished to make way for a new linear concourse similar to the one currently being built on T3 south that would be widebody/international capable. The only other major issue I see is the airfield having issues/restrictions accommodating multiple widebodies at once since the taxiways seem to be too narrow compared to the wingspans of current Group V aircraft!


That is way more construction than what is required. Particularly since in 3F there is a new linear concourse on the South side that appears to be planned for INTL. 3C would allow them to put an FIS in T3S and 3D would allow an FIS in the last concourse of the West Terminal.

Realistically, adding just a few gates solves the gating issue, the current Customs is still bottlenecked by passenger processing capacity. I truly don't see there as being that much of a demand though that the current Customs couldn't handle. Currently gating is the restriction outside of when BA comes in (in part because GDL, CUN, PVR, SJD, and YXE come in +/- 15 minutes).


Yeah that's a lot more than what's need as I realize but I'm also thinking about potential demand 20+ years into the future, not just 5 or 10 years.
 
jmc1975
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Sat Nov 03, 2018 4:53 am

How about let's scrap all of the proposals, and build out T4S1 as planned, where Southwest can relocate from T4S4. T4S4 should then be converted into a Common-use/International concourse to be used on a per-use basis. This would require the creative engineering of some additional infrastructure to connect it with the FIS on T4N4. Would it be a long walk for arriving customers? Yes. How many airports in the world have a lengthy walk to their Immigrations and Customs areas? Quite a few, so the distance shouldn't be a deal-breaker. This would enable AA to expand internationally from PHX, and allow additional carriers such as JL/CM/AM/LH to begin or resume service.

AC should be moved back in with UA in T2 (T3N later)...it's goofy that they operate from T4 as many of their passengers check in at T2 only to find out that they're on a code-share flight out of T4. WS is a tougher call...they could move in with DL in their new home at T3S, however during peak months, nonstops from YYJ, YLW,YXE,YQR would all require FIS gates in T4.

This would be the most cost-effective way to open up additional international capacity at PHX without running the risk of having empty gates.
.......
 
Lennundus
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:09 am

I personally like the 3f proposal because it makes room for development in the future on the north side of Terminal 4. I also think it would better suit AA for expansion (I know it does not seem likely now but maybe in the future).

Also, has anyone seen renderings for the S1 concourse?
 
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1337Delta764
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Sat Nov 03, 2018 4:33 pm

jmc1975 wrote:
AC should be moved back in with UA in T2 (T3N later)...it's goofy that they operate from T4 as many of their passengers check in at T2 only to find out that they're on a code-share flight out of T4. WS is a tougher call...they could move in with DL in their new home at T3S, however during peak months, nonstops from YYJ, YLW,YXE,YQR would all require FIS gates in T4.


I think it has already been confirmed that AC will be moving to T3N once the construction is complete.
Yes, I wear Fairy Tale Pink IZOD shirts. I am a real man.
 
Skytrain777PHX
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:08 am

AA Widebody Flight Schedules (New changes as of 011/4/18):
another new upgrade to widebody aircraft for Thanksgiving holiday on 22nd thru 24th between PHL & PHX !!!

11/16/18 (Friday only)
PHL-PHX 332 AA2060 8:20PM-11:40PM

11/17/18 & 11/24/18 (Both Saturday only)
PHL-PHX 332 AA531 8:00AM-11:15AM (except on 11/17/18 but moved to 11/16/18 at night flight)
PHX-HNL 332 AA694 2:59PM- 6:46PM
HNL-PHX 332 AA693 10:05PM- 7:00AM (+1)

11/18/18 & 11/25/18 (Both Sunday only)
PHX-PHL 332 AA2168 8:51AM- 3:13PM

11/22/18 (Thursday only)
PHL-PHX 332 AA474 9:00AM-12:28PM new

11/23/18 (Friday only)
PHX-PHL 332 AA629 10:58AM- 5:20PM new
PHL-PHX 332 AA645 3:30PM- 6:55PM new

11/24/18 (Saturday only)
PHX-PHL 332 AA646 7:50AM- 2:03PM new



12/18/18 (Tuesday only)
PHL-PHX 333 AA1667 9:00PM-12:26AM (+1)

12/19/18 till 4/3/19 (Daily – Seasonal)
PHX-HNL 333 AA692 12:05PM- 4:00PM
HNL-PHX 333 AA693 10:45PM- 7:43AM (+1)

12/19/18 till 2/13/19 (Daily - Seasonal) (maybe new schedule will extended until April 4th for ending 333 service?)
CLT-PHX 333 AA1678 7:30AM-10:24AM
PHX-CLT 333 AA1696 9:36AM- 3:25PM

12/28/18 (Friday only)
ORD-PHX 788 AA2302 3:34PM- 6:17PM

12/29/18 (Saturday only)
PHX-ORD 788 AA2316 9:41AM- 2:14PM

1/6/19 till 2/13/19 (Daily - Seasonal) except Saturday (probably continue thru summer 2019?)
ORD-PHX 788 AA88 11:05AM- 1:44PM
PHX-ORD 788 AA88 3:07PM- 7:33PM


3/31/19 till 10/26/19 (Daily – Seasonal)
LHR-PHX 772 AA195 9:30AM-12:30PM
PHX-LHR 772 AA194 3:00PM- 9:20AM (+1)
 
Osubuckeyes
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Sun Nov 04, 2018 5:55 pm

Anyone happen to know the aircraft type for the ASU flyover yesterday... Military bird, overhead wing, 4 engines?
 
mga707
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:31 pm

Osubuckeyes wrote:
Anyone happen to know the aircraft type for the ASU flyover yesterday... Military bird, overhead wing, 4 engines?


Jet or turboprop? Probably C-17 if the former, C- (or EC-)130 if the latter.
 
alasizon
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:26 pm

cm642 wrote:
Yeah that's a lot more than what's need as I realize but I'm also thinking about potential demand 20+ years into the future, not just 5 or 10 years.


The CAMP plan already goes all the way out to 2037 and if that forecast shows 48 open gates on T4N, it would end up taking probably another 25 years to fill those back up again. By then that infrastructure would be 75+ years old and would need extensive remodeling.

jmc1975 wrote:
How about let's scrap all of the proposals, and build out T4S1 as planned, where Southwest can relocate from T4S4. T4S4 should then be converted into a Common-use/International concourse to be used on a per-use basis. This would require the creative engineering of some additional infrastructure to connect it with the FIS on T4N4. Would it be a long walk for arriving customers? Yes. How many airports in the world have a lengthy walk to their Immigrations and Customs areas? Quite a few, so the distance shouldn't be a deal-breaker. This would enable AA to expand internationally from PHX, and allow additional carriers such as JL/CM/AM/LH to begin or resume service.

AC should be moved back in with UA in T2 (T3N later)...it's goofy that they operate from T4 as many of their passengers check in at T2 only to find out that they're on a code-share flight out of T4. WS is a tougher call...they could move in with DL in their new home at T3S, however during peak months, nonstops from YYJ, YLW,YXE,YQR would all require FIS gates in T4.

This would be the most cost-effective way to open up additional international capacity at PHX without running the risk of having empty gates.


S1 is getting built either way already, the question is whether WN turns around and gets their own new terminal while using the existing T4S to displace some of the AA operations in order to expand N4 for INTL serivce.

Everyone is obsessing with FIS capacity but the reality is PHX isn't an INTL powerhouse and AA already has the room and ways to add additional Mexico markets if they really wanted to. There is nothing stopping CM/AM from starting service today. Is there really a need for PTY service? When it comes to JL/LH, JL could add the service today at reasonable times and they would be accommodated, there is absolutely nothing stopping them from adding the service other than the lack of a viable market. There isn't a gate for LH currently during the summer because of DE's existence. I'm all for International service but the reality is the market just isn't there and/or is happy to continue to shuttle themselves to LAX for the service at a cheaper price.

As mentioned, AC is already moving to T3N down the road and WS will likely never move out of T4 because despite the partnership with DL, those markets that aren't precleared are a good portion of their winter business.

Airfield improvements and splitting up WN and AA are needed from a traffic handling perspective and it will make it a lot better experience for the passengers.
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Maverick623
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:07 am

Osubuckeyes wrote:
Anyone happen to know the aircraft type for the ASU flyover yesterday... Military bird, overhead wing, 4 engines?


C17
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JustWingIt
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:14 am

Osubuckeyes wrote:
Anyone happen to know the aircraft type for the ASU flyover yesterday... Military bird, overhead wing, 4 engines?


It was a C-17. I heard a loud noise in my house, then felt vibrations, then I walked out and saw it flying perpendicular to typical PHX patterns directly above my house at 3-4 thousand feet, and was really curious about what was happening. Then I saw the fireworks. It was an unbelievable experience
AS 738, AS 739, WN 737, WN 738, DL 738, BA 744, BA 320, BA 763, HA 763, HA 712, QX E75, DL 320
 
Osubuckeyes
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:32 pm

JustWingIt wrote:
Osubuckeyes wrote:
Anyone happen to know the aircraft type for the ASU flyover yesterday... Military bird, overhead wing, 4 engines?


It was a C-17. I heard a loud noise in my house, then felt vibrations, then I walked out and saw it flying perpendicular to typical PHX patterns directly above my house at 3-4 thousand feet, and was really curious about what was happening. Then I saw the fireworks. It was an unbelievable experience


Indeed it was a spectacular sight in Tempe. Felt really low as it went S to N over Sun Devil stadium.
 
cm642
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:54 am

I hope the 787 sticks around through the summer!
 
skyharborshome
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:16 pm

Anyone know why one of the Dreamlifters is at Pinal? Maintenance or is it being replaced? Also, a couple of the DL 747s went from parked to partially dismantled. Always a sad sight.
Fly CHD!
 
MO11
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:07 pm

skyharborshome wrote:
Anyone know why one of the Dreamlifters is at Pinal? Maintenance or is it being replaced?



Atlas uses Ascent Aviation for maintenance.
 
mga707
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:10 am

Is California Pacific still a 'go' for service to/from IWA tomorrow (11/15)? If so, when does their first flight arrive from Carlsbad?
 
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treebeard787
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:54 am

mga707 wrote:
Is California Pacific still a 'go' for service to/from IWA tomorrow (11/15)? If so, when does their first flight arrive from Carlsbad?

Appears so far it is.
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DYN ... /KCRQ/KIWA
Allons-y!
 
MO11
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:00 am

treebeard787 wrote:
mga707 wrote:
Is California Pacific still a 'go' for service to/from IWA tomorrow (11/15)? If so, when does their first flight arrive from Carlsbad?

Appears so far it is.
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DYN ... /KCRQ/KIWA


But as a heads up, none of the flights flew today (2x CRQ-SJC, CRQ-RNO). Yet its online flight status lookup indicated that they were "on-time".
 
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FA9295
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:45 pm

Alaska's PAE flights to/from PHX current schedule: All PAE flights starting in February 2019
PHX 4:55 pm - PAE 7:05 pm

PAE 12:00 pm - PHX 3:55 pm
 
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treebeard787
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:34 pm

Just an update, appears the first California Pacific flight is on it's way to IWA, running behind schedule. https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DYN105
Allons-y!
 
Maverick623
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:18 am

https://www.azfamily.com/news/sky-harbo ... 372ab.html

The Phoenix City Council approved plans for the demolition of T2 (and the T2 parking garage). The mural in the processor building will be saved and moved, unknown where yet.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
777PHX
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:49 pm

I won't miss T2.

I noticed a bunch of buses leaving IWA last night with what appeared to be prisoners onboard. Pulled up Flightradar and it appears we received a fresh crop of Hawaii's finest on an Omni 767 that flew HNL-IWA.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:46 pm

777PHX wrote:
I won't miss T2.

T2 is every frequent flyers' dream terminal. When I lived in PHX, I could pull into the parking garage and make it into my gate in ten minutes (assuming it wasn't the 6am rush, in which case it would take a few extra minutes). It's a convenient as it gets. Yes, it lacks the amenities of a new terminal, but from a convenience and time-saving perspective, I struggle to come up with a comparison. Everyone loves new and shiny things, but I will absolutely miss the simplicity of T2 when I come back to visit.

777PHX wrote:
I noticed a bunch of buses leaving IWA last night with what appeared to be prisoners onboard. Pulled up Flightradar and it appears we received a fresh crop of Hawaii's finest on an Omni 767 that flew HNL-IWA.

It's a Justice and Repatriate hub, so they certainly keep busy.
 
910A
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:22 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
777PHX wrote:
I noticed a bunch of buses leaving IWA last night with what appeared to be prisoners onboard. Pulled up Flightradar and it appears we received a fresh crop of Hawaii's finest on an Omni 767 that flew HNL-IWA.

It's a Justice and Repatriate hub, so they certainly keep busy.


Hawaii houses inmates at the private prison in Elroy so I'm guessing that 777PHX is spot on in this case. When Alaska had a contract with CCA the probation/parole officers rotated two week in AZ and two weeks in AS. Built up the FF miles. :sarcastic:
 
777PHX
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:50 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
777PHX wrote:
I won't miss T2.

T2 is every frequent flyers' dream terminal. When I lived in PHX, I could pull into the parking garage and make it into my gate in ten minutes (assuming it wasn't the 6am rush, in which case it would take a few extra minutes). It's a convenient as it gets. Yes, it lacks the amenities of a new terminal, but from a convenience and time-saving perspective, I struggle to come up with a comparison. Everyone loves new and shiny things, but I will absolutely miss the simplicity of T2 when I come back to visit.


T2 reminds me of a cramped 1970s Soviet bus station. The facility itself is small, the gate areas are tiny and there aren't enough concessions for the amount of people flowing through there. I don't park at the airport so that whole bit is lost on me. I flew a UA 739 out of there not too long ago and 2/3 of the passengers waiting had to stand.
 
mga707
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:54 pm

910A wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
777PHX wrote:
I noticed a bunch of buses leaving IWA last night with what appeared to be prisoners onboard. Pulled up Flightradar and it appears we received a fresh crop of Hawaii's finest on an Omni 767 that flew HNL-IWA.

It's a Justice and Repatriate hub, so they certainly keep busy.


Hawaii houses inmates at the private prison in Elroy so I'm guessing that 777PHX is spot on in this case. When Alaska had a contract with CCA the probation/parole officers rotated two week in AZ and two weeks in AS. Built up the FF miles. :sarcastic:


Eloy. Halfway between PHX and TUS on I-10. Not named after George Jetson's son.
 
travaz
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:30 pm

I won't miss T2 but the last time I flew out of T2 was on a TWA 757 to NYC. So my perception is a bit dated. I would however park in the West economy lot and take the short walk over to T3
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:45 pm

910A wrote:
Hawaii houses inmates at the private prison in Elroy so I'm guessing that 777PHX is spot on in this case. When Alaska had a contract with CCA the probation/parole officers rotated two week in AZ and two weeks in AS. Built up the FF miles. :sarcastic:

Believe me, I know all too well. I used to be a paramedic when I lived in AZ, and I ran calls to the CCA complexes (they changed their name since) in Florence and Eloy all the time. My point is that IWA sees a huge amount of DHS/DOJ traffic anyway. It's somewhat noteworthy in that 76s are uncommon, but there are typically a dozen weekly flights or more operating as Justice or Repatriate from IWA.

777PHX wrote:
T2 reminds me of a cramped 1970s Soviet bus station. The facility itself is small, the gate areas are tiny and there aren't enough concessions for the amount of people flowing through there. I don't park at the airport so that whole bit is lost on me. I flew a UA 739 out of there not too long ago and 2/3 of the passengers waiting had to stand.

Well now I have to ask if you've been to a 1970s Soviet bus station! Lol. I know what you mean — there isn't a whole lot of aesthetic appeal, and the UA/ex-CO gate area (6A/6B/8) is a complete mess for about half the day. But, if I went back to flying as frequently as I used to, I would take T2 over any other terminal at any airport that I can think of. My time is more valuable than what the terminal looks like.

I only live about 15 minutes from IAD — after I drive there, park, walk roughly 400m underground to the main terminal, get through security (even using the crew line), take either the train or the people mover to the applicable concourse, and walk to the gate, it turns into about a 55-60 minute ordeal. In PHX, I drove from where I lived in San Tan Valley (35-40 minutes), parked in one of the many open spaces in T2, trotted through security (sometimes not even having to stop walking), and could make it to my T2 gate often less than 10 minutes after parking (my record was seven minutes). 8.6 miles here vs. 41 there, and I could still get to my gate quicker there. I feel like there's something to be said for that.

I'm not disagreeing that it needs to go, but my memories of that terminal will be fond. It's a relic of a bygone era in aviation, where terminals at large airports didn't always require 20 minute hikes to the gate. Small terminals at big airports don't make sense anymore, but that doesn't mean it isn't nice from a flyer's perspective.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:42 am

atcsundevil wrote:
777PHX wrote:
I won't miss T2.

T2 is every frequent flyers' dream terminal. When I lived in PHX, I could pull into the parking garage and make it into my gate in ten minutes (assuming it wasn't the 6am rush, in which case it would take a few extra minutes). It's a convenient as it gets. Yes, it lacks the amenities of a new terminal, but from a convenience and time-saving perspective, I struggle to come up with a comparison. Everyone loves new and shiny things, but I will absolutely miss the simplicity of T2 when I come back to visit.

777PHX wrote:
I noticed a bunch of buses leaving IWA last night with what appeared to be prisoners onboard. Pulled up Flightradar and it appears we received a fresh crop of Hawaii's finest on an Omni 767 that flew HNL-IWA.

It's a Justice and Repatriate hub, so they certainly keep busy.


I seldom fly through T2, though my daughter usually does, and pick up/drop off is a breeze. Compare this to last weekend when i flew back from SEA into T4. It was late and crowded and my wife got confused picking me up between South and North, then got into a preferred or something lane, then missed and had to go around, at which point I said just go park in the cell lot and I'll walk to T2, since she knows how to get in and out there. lol
-Dave


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chrisair
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Sun Nov 18, 2018 6:43 am

atcsundevil wrote:
But, if I went back to flying as frequently as I used to, I would take T2 over any other terminal at any airport that I can think of. My time is more valuable than what the terminal looks like.


I'm with you. Give me T2 any day of the week. It's small, it's fast, and when I was driving to the airport, I could easily go from plane to car to the Highland/Camelback exit on the 51 before the AS 20-minute bag guarantee cutoff. There's never traffic like there is at T4, which is really nice.

Recently with Clear time has equalized a little bit and I can move through T4 or T2 security in the same amount of time, but with parking, I'm all for T2. Will be sad to see it go. Glad they're saving the mural! It's a little more hidden these days but still cool to see. Hopefully they can save the Phoenix logo on the floor too.
 
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cathay747
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:36 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
777PHX wrote:
I won't miss T2.

T2 is every frequent flyers' dream terminal. When I lived in PHX, I could pull into the parking garage and make it into my gate in ten minutes (assuming it wasn't the 6am rush, in which case it would take a few extra minutes). It's a convenient as it gets. Yes, it lacks the amenities of a new terminal, but from a convenience and time-saving perspective, I struggle to come up with a comparison. Everyone loves new and shiny things, but I will absolutely miss the simplicity of T2 when I come back to visit.

I seldom fly through T2, though my daughter usually does, and pick up/drop off is a breeze. Compare this to last weekend when i flew back from SEA into T4. It was late and crowded and my wife got confused picking me up between South and North, then got into a preferred or something lane, then missed and had to go around, at which point I said just go park in the cell lot and I'll walk to T2, since she knows how to get in and out there. lol


Man am I ever with you exactly on what you said. Picking somebody up at T2 is SO easy compared to the North/South thing (plus which door #) at T4. And I'm with ATCSUNDEVIL on departing too, I remember how easy it was the two times I ever did. And I'm one who doesn't care if the terminal has a food court or shopping mall LOL so I'm all for the simplicity of T2. But times change, and once we moved out here from DC, I became a total (vs. mostly) AA loyalist, so it's T4 for me/us all the time (except for T3 for HA).
Last edited by cathay747 on Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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atcsundevil
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:37 pm

chrisair wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
But, if I went back to flying as frequently as I used to, I would take T2 over any other terminal at any airport that I can think of. My time is more valuable than what the terminal looks like.


I'm with you. Give me T2 any day of the week. It's small, it's fast, and when I was driving to the airport, I could easily go from plane to car to the Highland/Camelback exit on the 51 before the AS 20-minute bag guarantee cutoff. There's never traffic like there is at T4, which is really nice.

Recently with Clear time has equalized a little bit and I can move through T4 or T2 security in the same amount of time, but with parking, I'm all for T2. Will be sad to see it go. Glad they're saving the mural! It's a little more hidden these days but still cool to see. Hopefully they can save the Phoenix logo on the floor too.

I've always thought that they should keep the main hall of T2 and repurpose it somehow. Clearly that isn't their plan, but it's a nice bit of history that I would have liked to see them keep.
 
910A
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:09 pm

Today (Nov 18) is the first day of Hawaiian 332 service to PHX. Flight 36 arrives PHX at 2125hrs.
 
alasizon
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:56 pm

777PHX wrote:
I flew a UA 739 out of there not too long ago and 2/3 of the passengers waiting had to stand.


This isn't much different than T4 where for any given AA flight, its about 50-60% of people that have to stand. WN it depends on which boarding area you are in. Those at the base of the concourses on S3/S4 are about 40% standing while at the top its closer to 60%.
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wn676
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Sun Nov 18, 2018 6:26 pm

alasizon wrote:
777PHX wrote:
I flew a UA 739 out of there not too long ago and 2/3 of the passengers waiting had to stand.


This isn't much different than T4 where for any given AA flight, its about 50-60% of people that have to stand. WN it depends on which boarding area you are in. Those at the base of the concourses on S3/S4 are about 40% standing while at the top its closer to 60%.


50-60% standing is still pretty bad from a standards perspective, although given the existing space there isn’t much else that can be done unless they start knocking out concessions or bumping out over the apron.

“Mosh pits” at the end of the concourses are the hardest to design for, especially when the natural tendency is to gate your larger aircraft there. I haven’t been through PHX very much lately but the ends of N2 and N3 were always miserable with multiple same-bank 757/321 departures. Some airports like EWR and ORD try to mitigate this by having split-level holdrooms but this really only works well with regional operations since you have to tunnel out from the ramp level.

Of course there are a lot of holdrooms in PHX mid-concourse that are overloaded as well. The combination of not enough depth from the circulation corridor and upgauged gates tends to push the LoS lower. And with airports and airlines looking more at P3s for their terminal operations, seating will now be competing with expanded concessions. As much as I love OTG, the setup in the B concourse at PHL is a bit ridiculous at some gates.

Existing facilities will always be a challenge, but the light at the end of the tunnel of course is that the new T3 development should improve the holdroom situation considerably for those tenants.
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alasizon
Posts: 2050
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:03 pm

wn676 wrote:
alasizon wrote:

This isn't much different than T4 where for any given AA flight, its about 50-60% of people that have to stand. WN it depends on which boarding area you are in. Those at the base of the concourses on S3/S4 are about 40% standing while at the top its closer to 60%.


50-60% standing is still pretty bad from a standards perspective, although given the existing space there isn’t much else that can be done unless they start knocking out concessions or bumping out over the apron.

“Mosh pits” at the end of the concourses are the hardest to design for, especially when the natural tendency is to gate your larger aircraft there. I haven’t been through PHX very much lately but the ends of N2 and N3 were always miserable with multiple same-bank 757/321 departures. Some airports like EWR and ORD try to mitigate this by having split-level holdrooms but this really only works well with regional operations since you have to tunnel out from the ramp level.

Of course there are a lot of holdrooms in PHX mid-concourse that are overloaded as well. The combination of not enough depth from the circulation corridor and upgauged gates tends to push the LoS lower. And with airports and airlines looking more at P3s for their terminal operations, seating will now be competing with expanded concessions. As much as I love OTG, the setup in the B concourse at PHL is a bit ridiculous at some gates.

Existing facilities will always be a challenge, but the light at the end of the tunnel of course is that the new T3 development should improve the holdroom situation considerably for those tenants.


For the north side, its near impossible to widen the existing concourses in any sort of uniform way because the 321 needs every inch of that space due its length on the interior gates. N1/N2 are still clusters (N3 less so) during peak banks at the top. The problem really exists from the layout based on where the gates physically are. The A29/A30, A13/A14 and B13/B14 podiums and queues eat up a bunch of viable seating room. Moving where those jetways connect to the building would easily add at least 80-100 seats to the top of each concourse.

There are more concessions constantly coming because post-security the demand is truly there (particularly N3/N4). However there are currently too many souvenir shops, there is no need for there to be one on each concourse when that space could also be used for restaurants. The other alternative that I think would be interesting would be to add restaurants above the walkway connectors between the terminals. Its easy space to add.
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PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9526
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:29 pm

910A wrote:
Today (Nov 18) is the first day of Hawaiian 332 service to PHX. Flight 36 arrives PHX at 2125hrs.


Weird because I took a picture of an HA A332 landing here yesterday. I honestly didn't know they normally don't fly them here.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
INFINITI329
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:49 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
910A wrote:
Today (Nov 18) is the first day of Hawaiian 332 service to PHX. Flight 36 arrives PHX at 2125hrs.


Weird because I took a picture of an HA A332 landing here yesterday. I honestly didn't know they normally don't fly them here.


The airplane you took a picture was HA operating a charter from OAK bringing in the Oakland Raiders to play the Cardinals. Today will be the start regular service for HA operating the A332 HNL-PHX replacing the 767
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:13 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
910A wrote:
Today (Nov 18) is the first day of Hawaiian 332 service to PHX. Flight 36 arrives PHX at 2125hrs.


Weird because I took a picture of an HA A332 landing here yesterday. I honestly didn't know they normally don't fly them here.


The airplane you took a picture was HA operating a charter from OAK bringing in the Oakland Raiders to play the Cardinals. Today will be the start regular service for HA operating the A332 HNL-PHX replacing the 767


Ah that makes sense.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
travaz
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:08 am

I often fly out of PHX on AA and I always try to find a gate with no flight to sit and wait. I watch the time and try to get up and approach the gate when it is my time to board. It's always a challenge fighting the gate lice. I recently did LAX to SYD on AA and I really have to say LAX is very shabby and cramped. Many of the seats were torn and worn looking very threadbare. There was very few charging stations to top up your devices before the 15 hour flight. Fortunately AA has power ports on the Dreamliner. PHX is crowded but it beats LAX by a long shot.
 
4holer
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:49 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
777PHX wrote:
I won't miss T2.

T2 is every frequent flyers' dream terminal. When I lived in PHX, I could pull into the parking garage and make it into my gate in ten minutes (assuming it wasn't the 6am rush, in which case it would take a few extra minutes). It's a convenient as it gets. Yes, it lacks the amenities of a new terminal, but from a convenience and time-saving perspective, I struggle to come up with a comparison. Everyone loves new and shiny things, but I will absolutely miss the simplicity of T2 when I come back to visit.

777PHX wrote:
I noticed a bunch of buses leaving IWA last night with what appeared to be prisoners onboard. Pulled up Flightradar and it appears we received a fresh crop of Hawaii's finest on an Omni 767 that flew HNL-IWA.

It's a Justice and Repatriate hub, so they certainly keep busy.

Amen! Love T2. Beyond the convenience, ya gotta love the old school airplane tiling in the bathrooms.
Ghosts appear and fade away.....................
 
777PHX
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:23 pm

cathay747 wrote:
Man am I ever with you exactly on what you said. Picking somebody up at T2 is SO easy compared to the North/South thing (plus which door #) at T4. And I'm with ATCSUNDEVIL on departing too, I remember how easy it was the two times I ever did. And I'm one who doesn't care if the terminal has a food court or shopping mall LOL so I'm all for the simplicity of T2. But times change, and once we moved out here from DC, I became a total (vs. mostly) AA loyalist, so it's T4 for me/us all the time (except for T3 for HA).


I'm guessing no one here has ever parked at east economy and taken the Skytrain in? Takes about 30 seconds. Or if I'm picking up, I'd rather avoid the airport entirely and have them ride the Skytrain to the 44th street station and pick them up there.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:33 pm

777PHX wrote:
cathay747 wrote:
Man am I ever with you exactly on what you said. Picking somebody up at T2 is SO easy compared to the North/South thing (plus which door #) at T4. And I'm with ATCSUNDEVIL on departing too, I remember how easy it was the two times I ever did. And I'm one who doesn't care if the terminal has a food court or shopping mall LOL so I'm all for the simplicity of T2. But times change, and once we moved out here from DC, I became a total (vs. mostly) AA loyalist, so it's T4 for me/us all the time (except for T3 for HA).


I'm guessing no one here has ever parked at east economy and taken the Skytrain in? Takes about 30 seconds. Or if I'm picking up, I'd rather avoid the airport entirely and have them ride the Skytrain to the 44th street station and pick them up there.


I agree, the sky train from 44th st is great - unless you are using T2. That’ll be over soon though.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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1337Delta764
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:56 pm

According to this document, the T2 mural will be relocated to the Rental Car Center:
https://www.phoenix.gov/cityclerksite/C ... -FINAL.pdf
Yes, I wear Fairy Tale Pink IZOD shirts. I am a real man.
 
drdisque
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:07 pm

Didn't notice it posted here but a new airline, Advanced AIr operating King Airs has won the EAS for Silver City from Boutique and will be a new carrier to PHX. I'm guessing they'll move into T2 with Contour and Boutique. I wonder what accomodations they'll have to make for these carriers in the T3 expansion or if there's an existing place that they'll transform to be a suitable place for ground-board aircraft (Contour, with their ERJ's can use a normal gate, but I'm not aware of anywhere they fly where they actually do - maybe BWI?).
 
Vctony
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:11 pm

I saw a Contour aircraft at a gate at T2 the other day.
 
chumley
Posts: 75
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:48 pm

777PHX wrote:
I'm guessing no one here has ever parked at east economy and taken the Skytrain in? Takes about 30 seconds. Or if I'm picking up, I'd rather avoid the airport entirely and have them ride the Skytrain to the 44th street station and pick them up there.

While Sky Train is convenient, you might have to wait 5 minutes just for it to arrive. Add some escalators and long hallway treks too. Plus the travel time on the train from East Economy to T4 is a little more than 30 seconds. Minor details though. Beats the old shuttle bus days for sure.

I will often park in West Economy, because I can walk to T2 in a matter of minutes. No traffic, no trains, no busses, no BS!

In fact, since West Economy is only $7/day, and East Economy is $12/day, I will even park in West and walk to T3 to take that 30-second Sky Train to T4 when I'm flying WN or AA. $15 saved on a 3-day trip.

So T2 isn't just more convenient, it's more affordable too. I'll definitely miss it.
 
mga707
Posts: 221
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:58 pm

chumley wrote:
777PHX wrote:
I'm guessing no one here has ever parked at east economy and taken the Skytrain in? Takes about 30 seconds. Or if I'm picking up, I'd rather avoid the airport entirely and have them ride the Skytrain to the 44th street station and pick them up there.

While Sky Train is convenient, you might have to wait 5 minutes just for it to arrive. Add some escalators and long hallway treks too. Plus the travel time on the train from East Economy to T4 is a little more than 30 seconds. Minor details though. Beats the old shuttle bus days for sure.

I will often park in West Economy, because I can walk to T2 in a matter of minutes. No traffic, no trains, no busses, no BS!

In fact, since West Economy is only $7/day, and East Economy is $12/day, I will even park in West and walk to T3 to take that 30-second Sky Train to T4 when I'm flying WN or AA. $15 saved on a 3-day trip.

So T2 isn't just more convenient, it's more affordable too. I'll definitely miss it.


I will as well. I still miss the 1951 terminal, later Terminal 1. Was sad when it was torn down in the early '90s after T-4 opened. Flew out of it on both Southwest and USAir. When the 'new' (T-2) terminal opened in 1962 it was state-of-the-art. American, Bonanza, TWA, and Western moved over, while Continental and Frontier stayed at the original terminal.
 
chumley
Posts: 75
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:39 am

Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:03 pm

Does anybody remember the public shower in T2? I don't recall when it went away exactly, but it was adjacent to where the men's room is now at the top of the ramp between check-in/baggage claim and the main hall/security. It was a coin-operated door, and I believe was 50¢ to access the shower room. I never used it, but always thought it was a unique feature. Definitely still there in the late 90s. Not sure how far into the 2000s it lasted.

And Gate C ... boarding a 12:55a UA to ORD flight and having to walk outside on the breezeway to that double-wide building they called a gate!! Aaaah. T2 memories! :)
 
mga707
Posts: 221
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:45 pm

chumley wrote:
Does anybody remember the public shower in T2? I don't recall when it went away exactly, but it was adjacent to where the men's room is now at the top of the ramp between check-in/baggage claim and the main hall/security. It was a coin-operated door, and I believe was 50¢ to access the shower room. I never used it, but always thought it was a unique feature. Definitely still there in the late 90s. Not sure how far into the 2000s it lasted.

And Gate C ... boarding a 12:55a UA to ORD flight and having to walk outside on the breezeway to that double-wide building they called a gate!! Aaaah. T2 memories! :)


Think I recall the shower, but not Gate C, as I never flew UA out of PHX. How about the Hughes Airwest 'rotunda' gates at the end of the pier? Ground-level gates, pretty sure they were still there when Republic operated their fairly short-lived PHX hub in the early '80s after acquiring Hughes Airwest.
 
alasizon
Posts: 2050
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:58 pm

drdisque wrote:
Didn't notice it posted here but a new airline, Advanced AIr operating King Airs has won the EAS for Silver City from Boutique and will be a new carrier to PHX. I'm guessing they'll move into T2 with Contour and Boutique. I wonder what accomodations they'll have to make for these carriers in the T3 expansion or if there's an existing place that they'll transform to be a suitable place for ground-board aircraft (Contour, with their ERJ's can use a normal gate, but I'm not aware of anywhere they fly where they actually do - maybe BWI?).


F11-F13 are on the north side of the new T3S which will be used for the commuter aircraft eventually. My understanding is it will be a combo of jetway gates and ground boarding stairs so that regardless of the equipment used for the small markets they will be supported on those gates.
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