stlgph wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

stlgph wrote:

No boost to Ft Lauderdale? that's interesting.

LF was 85% last March at 3x daily, so no need to add too much more capacity

Is a little interesting given the possible cruise business, but then again Ft Myers has more retirement homes/condos and Orlando/Tampa have the amusement parks, so perhaps the 3x covers the WN needs for cruise traffic.

This just goes to show where the WN bread and butter is here. Shame BOS/EWR/LGA just didn't work.

This is the limitation of WN, in my mind, for the business traveler. BOS, EWR/LGA, DCA on a 1X or 2X daily schedule with not-so-ideal timings on 737s is really hard to make work in the business world. If I need to go to BOS for a full day meeting and return the next morning, I can't do so on WN. For DCA, if I needed to be there (flying from IND) for more than 5 hours but less than a full day, there was no same-day return option. The business traveler would rather smaller planes and more frequencies and that just doesn't sit well with WN's one-plane-fits-all model.

indygs wrote:

stlgph wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

LF was 85% last March at 3x daily, so no need to add too much more capacity

Is a little interesting given the possible cruise business, but then again Ft Myers has more retirement homes/condos and Orlando/Tampa have the amusement parks, so perhaps the 3x covers the WN needs for cruise traffic.

This just goes to show where the WN bread and butter is here. Shame BOS/EWR/LGA just didn't work.

This is the limitation of WN, in my mind, for the business traveler. BOS, EWR/LGA, DCA on a 1X or 2X daily schedule with not-so-ideal timings on 737s is really hard to make work in the business world. If I need to go to BOS for a full day meeting and return the next morning, I can't do so on WN. For DCA, if I needed to be there (flying from IND) for more than 5 hours but less than a full day, there was no same-day return option. The business traveler would rather smaller planes and more frequencies and that just doesn't sit well with WN's one-plane-fits-all model.

Agreed, the way they gain business passengers is through sheer market share in markets where they run tons of flights to dozens of unique destinations (ie. BNA, STL, MCI, e.t.c)

Their schedules to places like BOS/EWR from IND are really bad for business travelers (I chose random dates);

At 1 time daily, WN BOS-IND 7am (dep)/945am (arr), IND-BOS 240pm (dep)/ 455pm (arr) works badly for IND based business travelers.
WN's December EWR schedule is bad too, IND-EWR 330pm (dep)/ 525pm(arr), EWR-IND 505pm (dep)/ 725pm(arr)
The MDW-IND flights are not great times either

It doesn't make any sense for businesses to sign contracts with WN in IND, unless they get a very very hefty discount. They just don't offer the scope of operations from IND to appeal to a wide spectrum of business travelers.

indygs wrote:

This is the limitation of WN, in my mind, for the business traveler. BOS, EWR/LGA, DCA on a 1X or 2X daily schedule with not-so-ideal timings on 737s is really hard to make work in the business world. If I need to go to BOS for a full day meeting and return the next morning, I can't do so on WN. For DCA, if I needed to be there (flying from IND) for more than 5 hours but less than a full day, there was no same-day return option. The business traveler would rather smaller planes and more frequencies and that just doesn't sit well with WN's one-plane-fits-all model.

I agree with your point, which is that "the business traveler would rather smaller planes and more frequencies and that just doesn't sit well with WN's one-plane-fits-all model", and your point also holds true in some of the other markets in the Midwestern U.S. and Southern U.S. On the other hand, there are some other routes (but not IND-BOS, IND-EWR, IND-LGA, and IND-DCA) that can support more than 4 daily nonstops in each direction on WN on weekdays, and these nonstop routes are appealing to business travelers if they are scheduled properly.

In the case of DAL, which is the home base for WN, DAL only has 1 daily nonstop to IND and 1 daily nonstop to BOS because WN has limited room at DAL due to the 20-gate cap that was imposed at DAL under the WARA. On the other hand, WN has 4 daily nonstops to LGA and 4 daily nonstops to DCA out of DAL. The situation is somewhat mixed at DAL, but there are many connecting options available to BOS from DAL on both WN and DL in addition to the 1 daily nonstop between DAL and BOS on WN.

AA currently has 5 daily nonstops to IND out of DFW and 7 daily nonstops to BOS out of DFW, but AA has its home base at DFW. DFW also is not subject to any gate caps like DAL is. AA also has mainline on DFW-IND and DFW-BOS, whereas most of the nonstops to the Northeastern U.S. out of IND, CVG, CMH, CLE, and SDF on AA, DL, and UA are on regional jets. There are also connecting opportunities to international destinations and smaller Texas markets that aren't served by WN from IND through DFW on AA.

While there is a lot of demand for WN service out of DAL, there are many business travelers in the DFW Metroplex who prefer to fly on AA out of DFW because AA has better flight times on some of the routes than WN does, because some of the business travelers in the DFW Metroplex have elite status on AA, because AA has more nonstops a day than WN does to most of the destinations that both AA and WN serve nonstop from the DFW Metroplex, and because AA has nonstop service out of DFW to destinations that WN doesn't serve nonstop from DAL.

SANFan wrote:

Hey folks, I know you've got a lot of major issues on your plates already, but I hope it's ok if I vent for a moment here.

I was really disappointed when I checked the WN sked extension this morning. First thing I check is the route map for any new routes from SAN - none. The next item on my check list is the status of our "seasonal' routes - MKE, TPA and of course, IND. Have any of them returned to “active” yet? MKE – no. TPA – Yes! IND – NO!!

The numbers simply do not support WN’s continued limited service between IND & SAN. Even now that they have competition in the market – well, if you can call Frontier competition – WN apparently is determined to serve the route only between sometime in June and sometime in August (or maybe Labor Day if we’re lucky!)

It’s ridiculous and I continue to hope that someone – read: Alaska Airlines or maybe even DL, although those chances are very near 0 – will jump in and seriously SERVE the market! AS tried SFO-IND and failed (serious competition) but I don’t really think of SAN-IND as being served under the current conditions. So AS should be able to slip into SAN-IND and clean up!

Has anyone on that end of the route heard any chatter of anything happening in this market? Should I get my hopes up or continue in despair?

Grumble, grumble…. Thanks for listening. Feel free to comment.

bb

I've given up on IND-SAN, WN/AS are both stagnant. IND can't even offer incentives either since they already have 2 airlines flying that route. AS is of course discussing it for a launch/announcement in the next 1-2 years, but they are being very patient.

Midwestindy wrote:

SANFan wrote:

Hey folks, I know you've got a lot of major issues on your plates already, but I hope it's ok if I vent for a moment here.

I was really disappointed when I checked the WN sked extension this morning. First thing I check is the route map for any new routes from SAN - none. The next item on my check list is the status of our "seasonal' routes - MKE, TPA and of course, IND. Have any of them returned to “active” yet? MKE – no. TPA – Yes! IND – NO!!

The numbers simply do not support WN’s continued limited service between IND & SAN. Even now that they have competition in the market – well, if you can call Frontier competition – WN apparently is determined to serve the route only between sometime in June and sometime in August (or maybe Labor Day if we’re lucky!)

It’s ridiculous and I continue to hope that someone – read: Alaska Airlines or maybe even DL, although those chances are very near 0 – will jump in and seriously SERVE the market! AS tried SFO-IND and failed (serious competition) but I don’t really think of SAN-IND as being served under the current conditions. So AS should be able to slip into SAN-IND and clean up!

Has anyone on that end of the route heard any chatter of anything happening in this market? Should I get my hopes up or continue in despair?

Grumble, grumble…. Thanks for listening. Feel free to comment.

bb

I've given up on IND-SAN, WN/AS are both stagnant. IND can't even offer incentives either since they already have 2 airlines flying that route. AS is of course discussing it for a launch/announcement in the next 1-2 years, but they are being very patient.

Yeah, I think it'll be a long time until we get a proper daily year-round IND-SAN. I'd wish WN would start the seasonal route earlier but they're clearly content with only running it from June to August/Early September. Frontier 2x weekly isn't going to convince WN to increase how long they fly the route. At least WN flies it in the summer, and well that is much better than nothing. We're gonna have to be a little more patient.

WN IND-SAN should be on the schedule either next extension, or the extension after that one depending what part of June they want to start the route.

IND-CDG is looking good for September

On peak days J fares are around 11.5k oneway which is very high, other days they are around 10.1k. Surprised they can fill the J cabin at those fares, but then again depending on the contracts some companies are likely buying these tickets at a discount

Midwestindy wrote:

On peak days J fares are around 11.5k oneway which is very high, other days they are around 10.1k. Surprised they can fill the J cabin at those fares, but then again depending on the contracts some companies are likely buying these tickets at a discount

Who buys one way J tickets to CDG? Probably a tiny tiny percentage of the cabin. Most itineraries are going beyond CDG, and most of those are round trip tickets which are not much more than a one way ticket to CDG.

Just a random check, IND-CDG J fare is $10,128 leaving today. Round trip IND-CDG-ZRH-CDG-IND is $10,202. Only $74 more for 3 additional business class flights.
Same itinerary from PIT is $$10,110. From CVG $10,002.

Having said that, yes DL charges a pretty penny no matter what the final destination is from all their medium size US gateways.

flyPIT wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

On peak days J fares are around 11.5k oneway which is very high, other days they are around 10.1k. Surprised they can fill the J cabin at those fares, but then again depending on the contracts some companies are likely buying these tickets at a discount

Who buys one way J tickets to CDG? Probably a tiny tiny percentage of the cabin. Most itineraries are going beyond CDG, and most of those are round trip tickets which are not much more than a one way ticket to CDG.

Just a random check, IND-CDG J fare is $10,128 leaving today. Round trip IND-CDG-ZRH-CDG-IND is $10,202. Only $74 more for 3 additional business class flights.
Same itinerary from PIT is $$10,110. From CVG $10,002.

Having said that, yes DL charges a pretty penny no matter what the final destination is from all their medium size US gateways.

From the medium sized airports they fly to CDG (CVG, IND, and RDU) they charge a killing, I think it would be interesting to compare the prices on BA's cities (BNA, AUS, MSY, e.t.c) to LHR vs. DL's cities to CDG. From my experience BA tends to be cheaper

IMO, DL's TATL strategy makes a lot of sense

Interesting topic, I did a search on IND-CDG J for a few date range in Oct for at most one stop. It looks like it's $9000+ n/s on delta or $9000+ one stop on other airlines. I tried some other itinerary out of IND to places like LHR/FRA/MAD, also comparable prices all around. Imo, it's just a matter of legacy TATL JVs price gauging customers. J itinerary to Asia that are far cheaper despite being twice the distance.

Here is another question, why is it such a big deal for IND to get a flight to CDG? the O&D to CDG isn't very high. It's not London. And for connection itinerary, there are plenty of 1 stop options to other European cities. Why is it such a big deal for the connection point to physically be in Europe instead of say JFK/YYZ/BOS/DTW?

Midwestindy wrote:

From the medium sized airports they fly to CDG (CVG, IND, and RDU) they charge a killing, I think it would be interesting to compare the prices on BA's cities (BNA, AUS, MSY, e.t.c) to LHR vs. DL's cities to CDG. From my experience BA tends to be cheaper

IMO, DL's TATL strategy makes a lot of sense

I don't disagree; thats why many of us were surprised they dropped PIT so fast after the BA announcement without even putting up a fight.

I hadn't checked the Weekend schedules fromAA/DL, but there are some nice increases there:

DL
IND-BOS goes 2x daily on Saturdays (starting March)
IND-JFK goes 2x daily on Saturdays
IND-ATL gains 2 extra Saturday frequencies

AA
IND-LGA goes from 0 to 2x daily on Saturdays
IND-DCA goes from 2 to 4x daily on Saturdays

tphuang wrote:

Interesting topic, I did a search on IND-CDG J for a few date range in Oct for at most one stop. It looks like it's $9000+ n/s on delta or $9000+ one stop on other airlines. I tried some other itinerary out of IND to places like LHR/FRA/MAD, also comparable prices all around. Imo, it's just a matter of legacy TATL JVs price gauging customers. J itinerary to Asia that are far cheaper despite being twice the distance.

Here is another question, why is it such a big deal for IND to get a flight to CDG? the O&D to CDG isn't very high. It's not London. And for connection itinerary, there are plenty of 1 stop options to other European cities. Why is it such a big deal for the connection point to physically be in Europe instead of say JFK/YYZ/BOS/DTW?

To be fair, JFK/YYZ/BOS/DTW don't provide the one-stop options that LHR/CDG/FRA do, and technically CDG is the second largest O&D market from IND.

The largest inbound markets to IND (LHR, FRA, AMS, MAN, CDG, ZRH, and MAD) and the largest outbound markets from IND (LHR, CDG, FCO, DUB, FRA, AMS, and BCN) can be be served thru JFK/YYZ/BOS/DTW, but there are other decent sized TATL markets from IND that have bad 1stop options or require 2 stops.

IND-India (Infosys+Axiscades) is a prime example, the only 1-stop option for IND-BLR is thru CDG, and BLR is the home to 2 large employers in the Indianapolis area
There are other examples including IND-BHX(Rolls-Royce), ATH(tourism), VCE(tourism), where 1-stop options are limited.

Governor Eric Holcomb has unveiled plans for the state to spend $1 billion in infrastructure projects that he says will improve quality of life throughout the state. Holcomb's "Next Level Connections" program focuses on speeding up major road projects, increasing broadband access, improving the state’s trail system, ATTRACTING MORE INTERNATIONAL FLIGHTS, continuing work on a potential fourth port and pushing West Lake rail service and South Shore double-tracking projects.

The plan also calls on the state to invest about $20 million to work to establish additional international nonstop flights to and from Indianapolis, with specific targets in the Mexico City and Asia Pacific markets. Holcomb says he wants to make Indianapolis International Airport the “preferred airport” of the Midwest.

http://www.insideindianabusiness.com/st ... ns-program

zackary747 wrote:

Governor Eric Holcomb has unveiled plans for the state to spend $1 billion in infrastructure projects that he says will improve quality of life throughout the state. Holcomb's "Next Level Connections" program focuses on speeding up major road projects, increasing broadband access, improving the state’s trail system, ATTRACTING MORE INTERNATIONAL FLIGHTS, continuing work on a potential fourth port and pushing West Lake rail service and South Shore double-tracking projects.

The plan also calls on the state to invest about $20 million to work to establish additional international nonstop flights to and from Indianapolis, with specific targets in the Mexico City and Asia Pacific markets. Holcomb says he wants to make Indianapolis International Airport the “preferred airport” of the Midwest.

http://www.insideindianabusiness.com/st ... ns-program

Good news!

Really interesting stuff starting around 7:30 minutes left in the video: https://www.facebook.com/GovHolcomb/vid ... 997332168/

He wants to turn IND into a "Midwest Hub," wants to add more flights "throughout" Europe/Asia/NA when the numbers work. $20 million is no small number, quite the statement

Here is the tweet: https://twitter.com/GovHolcomb/status/1 ... 8489702400
"Indianapolis will become the preferred Midwest hub of international travel. We are looking at Asia, Central & South America, & Europe where we can add a nonstop flight to & from @INDairport."

I like the Governor's vision. I think it is doable but in order for this to become a reality, I think IND will need to improve the space allocated for international arrivals and departures.

Indy wrote:

I like the Governor's vision. I think it is doable but in order for this to become a reality, I think IND will need to improve the space allocated for international arrivals and departures.

I'm sure the state of Indiana and the IAA have discussed that. It would come to a huge surprise if that wasn't brought up.

flyPIT wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

On peak days J fares are around 11.5k oneway which is very high, other days they are around 10.1k. Surprised they can fill the J cabin at those fares, but then again depending on the contracts some companies are likely buying these tickets at a discount

Who buys one way J tickets to CDG? Probably a tiny tiny percentage of the cabin. Most itineraries are going beyond CDG, and most of those are round trip tickets which are not much more than a one way ticket to CDG.

Just a random check, IND-CDG J fare is $10,128 leaving today. Round trip IND-CDG-ZRH-CDG-IND is $10,202. Only $74 more for 3 additional business class flights.
Same itinerary from PIT is $$10,110. From CVG $10,002.

Having said that, yes DL charges a pretty penny no matter what the final destination is from all their medium size US gateways.

There are much cheaper DL roundtrip J fares on this route (Z fares) available from $3000 roundtrip. They have a 60-day advance purchase and Saturday night stay requirement. With the 60-day advance purchase requirement, you need to search out into November and beyond in order to find them. Roundtrip fares that are much cheaper than one-way fares are still quite commonplace on legacy carriers on international routes (you can still find them on some domestic routes as well where there is no LCC competition).

Midwestindy wrote:

zackary747 wrote:

Governor Eric Holcomb has unveiled plans for the state to spend $1 billion in infrastructure projects that he says will improve quality of life throughout the state. Holcomb's "Next Level Connections" program focuses on speeding up major road projects, increasing broadband access, improving the state’s trail system, ATTRACTING MORE INTERNATIONAL FLIGHTS, continuing work on a potential fourth port and pushing West Lake rail service and South Shore double-tracking projects.

The plan also calls on the state to invest about $20 million to work to establish additional international nonstop flights to and from Indianapolis, with specific targets in the Mexico City and Asia Pacific markets. Holcomb says he wants to make Indianapolis International Airport the “preferred airport” of the Midwest.

http://www.insideindianabusiness.com/st ... ns-program

Good news!

Really interesting stuff starting around 7:30 minutes left in the video: https://www.facebook.com/GovHolcomb/vid ... 997332168/

He wants to turn IND into a "Midwest Hub," wants to add more flights "throughout" Europe/Asia/NA when the numbers work. $20 million is no small number, quite the statement

Here is the tweet: https://twitter.com/GovHolcomb/status/1 ... 8489702400
"Indianapolis will become the preferred Midwest hub of international travel. We are looking at Asia, Central & South America, & Europe where we can add a nonstop flight to & from @INDairport."

I find it shocking he mentioned Central and South America. What kind of business connections do we have down there, and what plans are in place to grow those business connections?

Props to the Guv, but I'm also in the "I'll believe it when I see it" camp. In order to make this happen, a whole lot of factors outside his realm have to be favorable.

zackary747 wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

zackary747 wrote:

Governor Eric Holcomb has unveiled plans for the state to spend $1 billion in infrastructure projects that he says will improve quality of life throughout the state. Holcomb's "Next Level Connections" program focuses on speeding up major road projects, increasing broadband access, improving the state’s trail system, ATTRACTING MORE INTERNATIONAL FLIGHTS, continuing work on a potential fourth port and pushing West Lake rail service and South Shore double-tracking projects.

The plan also calls on the state to invest about $20 million to work to establish additional international nonstop flights to and from Indianapolis, with specific targets in the Mexico City and Asia Pacific markets. Holcomb says he wants to make Indianapolis International Airport the “preferred airport” of the Midwest.

http://www.insideindianabusiness.com/st ... ns-program

Good news!

Really interesting stuff starting around 7:30 minutes left in the video: https://www.facebook.com/GovHolcomb/vid ... 997332168/

He wants to turn IND into a "Midwest Hub," wants to add more flights "throughout" Europe/Asia/NA when the numbers work. $20 million is no small number, quite the statement

Here is the tweet: https://twitter.com/GovHolcomb/status/1 ... 8489702400
"Indianapolis will become the preferred Midwest hub of international travel. We are looking at Asia, Central & South America, & Europe where we can add a nonstop flight to & from @INDairport."

I find it shocking he mentioned Central and South America. What kind of business connections do we have down there, and what plans are in place to grow those business connections?

MEX is a hub for AM, and the DL codeshare.

Mexico is either 1, 2, or 3 in terms of trading partners with Indiana, think Industrial Machinery/Vehicles and Parts. Last time I checked Indiana sent the 3rd most vehicles to Mexico behind Michigan and slightly below Texas.

Cummins has a very large Central American operation, from their four manufacturing plants in Mexico they exported $ 1.2 billion, they also have an R&D facility there as well.
Eli lilly, and other Indiana companies have sizable operations in Mexico as well.

Currently there isn't a market for IND-South America, but an RJ to MEX could theoretically be feasible with connections onward especially with the money the Gov is willing to throw around. MEX has been a target for a while for the airport

https://www.in.gov/gov/files/NextLevel% ... 0sheet.pdf

International flights
 $20 million to establish additional international nonstop flights to/from Indianapolis
 Goal is to connect to more international hubs in North America, Asia and Europe
 The first such flight from Indianapolis to Paris commenced in May
 More nonstop flights will encourage additional economic investment and direct
connections with more markets throughout the world

https://www.indystar.com/story/news/201 ... 987328002/

First announcements could come pretty soon

Midwestindy wrote:

https://www.in.gov/gov/files/NextLevel%20Connections%20facts%20sheet.pdf

International flights
 $20 million to establish additional international nonstop flights to/from Indianapolis
 Goal is to connect to more international hubs in North America, Asia and Europe
 The first such flight from Indianapolis to Paris commenced in May
 More nonstop flights will encourage additional economic investment and direct
connections with more markets throughout the world

https://www.indystar.com/story/news/201 ... 987328002/

First announcements could come pretty soon

Good for IND, maybe they'll be the first mid-sized market to get a TPAC flight, which I believe will open the floodgates for others to follow. I have a feeling as soon as one bites, others will follow in rapid succession. We are simply waiting on the first city to make a move.

That being said, beyond an Asian flight, an additional (London) European flight and some new flights to Canada and Mexico, I can't see much more beyond that for the foreseeable future. Without a connecting hub operation, it would be hard to fill multiple European and Asian flights based solely on O&D demand. And I would say the same for CVG, RDU, PIT, BNA, etc, as well.

Though it's not aviation relation, it's also worth noting in there that this plan provides funding to complete I-69 by 2024 and continue the upgrade of US 31 to full freeway between South Bend and Indianapolis. Upon completion, Indianapolis will be connected in all directions by an Interstate (US 31 will become I-67 in the future, mark my words), making IND an attractive regional airport.

I think the key would be to convince passengers from CVG and SDF to leave those airports behIND for non stops.

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ADrum23 wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

https://www.in.gov/gov/files/NextLevel%20Connections%20facts%20sheet.pdf

International flights
 $20 million to establish additional international nonstop flights to/from Indianapolis
 Goal is to connect to more international hubs in North America, Asia and Europe
 The first such flight from Indianapolis to Paris commenced in May
 More nonstop flights will encourage additional economic investment and direct
connections with more markets throughout the world

https://www.indystar.com/story/news/201 ... 987328002/

First announcements could come pretty soon

Good for IND, maybe they'll be the first mid-sized market to get a TPAC flight, which I believe will open the floodgates for others to follow. I have a feeling as soon as one bites, others will follow in rapid succession. We are simply waiting on the first city to make a move.

That being said, beyond an Asian flight, an additional (London) European flight and some new flights to Canada and Mexico, I can't see much more beyond that for the foreseeable future. Without a connecting hub operation, it would be hard to fill multiple European and Asian flights based solely on O&D demand. And I would say the same for CVG, RDU, PIT, BNA, etc, as well.

Though it's not aviation relation, it's also worth noting in there that this plan provides funding to complete I-69 by 2024 and continue the upgrade of US 31 to full freeway between South Bend and Indianapolis. Upon completion, Indianapolis will be connected in all directions by an Interstate (US 31 will become I-67 in the future, mark my words), making IND an attractive regional airport.

DL is planning a connecting operation through IND

Midwestindy wrote:

ADrum23 wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

https://www.in.gov/gov/files/NextLevel%20Connections%20facts%20sheet.pdf

International flights
 $20 million to establish additional international nonstop flights to/from Indianapolis
 Goal is to connect to more international hubs in North America, Asia and Europe
 The first such flight from Indianapolis to Paris commenced in May
 More nonstop flights will encourage additional economic investment and direct
connections with more markets throughout the world

https://www.indystar.com/story/news/201 ... 987328002/

First announcements could come pretty soon

Good for IND, maybe they'll be the first mid-sized market to get a TPAC flight, which I believe will open the floodgates for others to follow. I have a feeling as soon as one bites, others will follow in rapid succession. We are simply waiting on the first city to make a move.

That being said, beyond an Asian flight, an additional (London) European flight and some new flights to Canada and Mexico, I can't see much more beyond that for the foreseeable future. Without a connecting hub operation, it would be hard to fill multiple European and Asian flights based solely on O&D demand. And I would say the same for CVG, RDU, PIT, BNA, etc, as well.

Though it's not aviation relation, it's also worth noting in there that this plan provides funding to complete I-69 by 2024 and continue the upgrade of US 31 to full freeway between South Bend and Indianapolis. Upon completion, Indianapolis will be connected in all directions by an Interstate (US 31 will become I-67 in the future, mark my words), making IND an attractive regional airport.

DL is planning a connecting operation through IND

We keep hearing that, but nothing is coming of it. And what do they mean by connecting operation? Do they mean replicating CVG and RDU?

ADrum23 wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

ADrum23 wrote:

Good for IND, maybe they'll be the first mid-sized market to get a TPAC flight, which I believe will open the floodgates for others to follow. I have a feeling as soon as one bites, others will follow in rapid succession. We are simply waiting on the first city to make a move.

That being said, beyond an Asian flight, an additional (London) European flight and some new flights to Canada and Mexico, I can't see much more beyond that for the foreseeable future. Without a connecting hub operation, it would be hard to fill multiple European and Asian flights based solely on O&D demand. And I would say the same for CVG, RDU, PIT, BNA, etc, as well.

Though it's not aviation relation, it's also worth noting in there that this plan provides funding to complete I-69 by 2024 and continue the upgrade of US 31 to full freeway between South Bend and Indianapolis. Upon completion, Indianapolis will be connected in all directions by an Interstate (US 31 will become I-67 in the future, mark my words), making IND an attractive regional airport.

DL is planning a connecting operation through IND

We keep hearing that, but nothing is coming of it. And what do they mean by connecting operation? Do they mean replicating CVG and RDU?

Well, you gotta realize those developments don’t happen overnight. It may take a couple years to know the end result.


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ADrum23 wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

ADrum23 wrote:

Good for IND, maybe they'll be the first mid-sized market to get a TPAC flight, which I believe will open the floodgates for others to follow. I have a feeling as soon as one bites, others will follow in rapid succession. We are simply waiting on the first city to make a move.

That being said, beyond an Asian flight, an additional (London) European flight and some new flights to Canada and Mexico, I can't see much more beyond that for the foreseeable future. Without a connecting hub operation, it would be hard to fill multiple European and Asian flights based solely on O&D demand. And I would say the same for CVG, RDU, PIT, BNA, etc, as well.

Though it's not aviation relation, it's also worth noting in there that this plan provides funding to complete I-69 by 2024 and continue the upgrade of US 31 to full freeway between South Bend and Indianapolis. Upon completion, Indianapolis will be connected in all directions by an Interstate (US 31 will become I-67 in the future, mark my words), making IND an attractive regional airport.

DL is planning a connecting operation through IND

We keep hearing that, but nothing is coming of it. And what do they mean by connecting operation? Do they mean replicating CVG and RDU?

The CDG flight just started, and the A220s got delayed so give it some time. It's already been confirmed by the airport and various people I've spoken to at DL, and the airport is in the process of updating the terminal so it's better for connections. In terms of the scope of the operation, daily flights probably won't reach the level of RDU or CVG but 50-60 flights at peak wouldn't be out of the question.

So basically the old NW focus city?

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ibthebigd wrote:

So basically the old NW focus city?

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Sounds like it, but with the addition of int'l flights. As long as they get to keep their 11 or so gates

ibthebigd wrote:

So basically the old NW focus city?

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50-60 would be bigger than the NW focus city. I don't think the NW focus city ever had a sustained 50 flight operation. And I think the number of seats DL would run through IND would be a decent percentage larger.

Indy wrote:

ibthebigd wrote:

So basically the old NW focus city?

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50-60 would be bigger than the NW focus city. I don't think the NW focus city ever had a sustained 50 flight operation. And I think the number of seats DL would run through IND would be a decent percentage larger.

DL right now is already larger than NW at peak, NW ran 1,924,131 people in 2005 and 1,944,704 in 2006, in 2017 DL was at 1,970,444 passengers.

For 2018, DL should be comfortably over 2 million: according to my numbers for September DL is adding 17% more capacity, and for October DL is adding 20% more capacity.

Midwestindy wrote:

DL right now is already larger than NW at peak, NW ran 1,924,131 people in 2005 and 1,944,704 in 2006, in 2017 DL was at 1,970,444 passengers.

For 2018, DL should be comfortably over 2 million: according to my numbers for September DL is adding 17% more capacity, and for October DL is adding 20% more capacity.

It really shows you how efficient IND TSA is and how wonderful the concourses are because you don't feel it.

Midwestindy wrote:

zackary747 wrote:

Governor Eric Holcomb has unveiled plans for the state to spend $1 billion in infrastructure projects that he says will improve quality of life throughout the state. Holcomb's "Next Level Connections" program focuses on speeding up major road projects, increasing broadband access, improving the state’s trail system, ATTRACTING MORE INTERNATIONAL FLIGHTS, continuing work on a potential fourth port and pushing West Lake rail service and South Shore double-tracking projects.

The plan also calls on the state to invest about $20 million to work to establish additional international nonstop flights to and from Indianapolis, with specific targets in the Mexico City and Asia Pacific markets. Holcomb says he wants to make Indianapolis International Airport the “preferred airport” of the Midwest.

http://www.insideindianabusiness.com/st ... ns-program

Good news!

Really interesting stuff starting around 7:30 minutes left in the video: https://www.facebook.com/GovHolcomb/vid ... 997332168/

He wants to turn IND into a "Midwest Hub," wants to add more flights "throughout" Europe/Asia/NA when the numbers work. $20 million is no small number, quite the statement

Quite impressive! I wonder what he means by hub though? UA definitely not, AA - No, WN - Retreating, AS - Laugh, B6 - Same, DL - Maybe but SO unlikely.

Also in the document: https://www.in.gov/gov/files/NextLevel%20Connections%20facts%20sheet.pdf

Goal is to connect to more international hubs in North America, Asia and Europe

Would this mean YUL or do you see it more as MEX/GDL/PTY?

Exciting times ahead. At the current rate IND could hit 9.1 million+ in 2018: https://d1j6zi7czwjuok.cloudfront.net/i ... Report.pdf

Still UA has been falling in passenger numbers, against the airport trend for several months.
Any idea why? They're running a 73G tomorrow IND-IAD with pretty bad loads. Anecdotal, but something will need to change for UA to consistently fill its October schedule with up to 6x daily mainline (2x SFO, 1x DEN, 2x ORD, 1x IAD)
Still hoping for a DEN schedule improvement with the supposed February rebanking of UA's DEN hub, but mainline on IND-IAH, which has come up now and again in the past doesn't seem to be in this winter's schedule while DEN is also down (it seems) and ORD looks choked on the early morning services (probably trying to route people via SFO and IAD, but a CR7 seems a bit small for the early morning originator.

Any of you think WN pulling off IND-EWR leaves space for G4 or B6 to New York City from here?

Midwestindy wrote:

Indy wrote:

Am I the only one that sees 8xMCO, 6xRSW and 6xTPA as ridiculous?

The demand to Florida during Spring Break is insane from IND
LFs last March on IND-MCO were
DL 92.2%
F9 93.8%
WN 92.4%
G4 95.0%

So, the frequency increases are definitely warranted.

I wonder if DL will upguage to a A319/A320 on IND-MCO and possibly a B717 on IND-RSW consider that route was at 96%LF

Based on March 23rd it appears IND has the most flights to MCO/SFB, RSW/PGD, and TPA/PIE/SRQ out of its counterparts
MCO/SFB
IND: 8xWN, 2x G4, and 1xDL=11
BNA: 10xWN, 1xDL=11
CMH/LCK: 7xWN, 1xG4, 1xNK, 1xDL=10
MKE: 8xWN, 1xDL, 1xG4=10
PIT/LBE: 6xWN, 2xNK, 1xDL, 1xG4=10
STL/BLV: 7xWN, 1xDL=8
MCI: 5x, 1xNK, 1xDL, 1xG4=8
CVG: 3xDL, 1xWN, 2xG4=6
CLE/CAK: 2xWN, 1xDL, 2xNK, 1xUA=6

RSW/PGD
IND: 6xWN, 1xDL, 1xG4=8
CMH/LCK: 5xWN, 1xNK, 1xDL, 1xG4=8
STL/BLV: 5xWN, 1xSY=6
PIT/LBE: 2xWN, 1xG4, 2xNK=5
MKE: 5xWN=5
CLE/CAK: 1xWN, 2xNK, 1xUA=4
CVG: 1xDL, 2xG4=3
BNA: 3xWN=3
MCI: 2xWN=2

TPA/PIE/SRQ
IND: 6xWN, 2xG4=8
CMH: 6xWN, 1xNK, 1xG4=8
BNA: 6xWN, 1xSY=7
PIT: 4xWN, 1xNK, 1xG4=6
STL/BLV: 4xWN, 1xG4=5
MKE: 5xWN=5
CVG: 2xDL, 2x=4
MCI: 3xWN=3
CLE/CAK: 1xWN, 1xNK=2

Wow again, IND and the Midwest appear to be booming!

The TPAC market from IND... I just don't see it. I mean, with enough subsidies, anything is possible. But looking around at Midwestern TPAC flights, AA is cutting back at ORD, and MSP (which is 2x the size of IND and has the backing of a DL hub) only just picked up their second TPAC flight. I just don't see the pax numbers to make a TPAC work from IND.

I could see a IND-MEX flight. AM with the DL JV makes that a possibility (or on Volaris as well). South America, I don't see that one either. The only current South American flights from the Midwest are from ORD and DTW. MSP isn't even there yet. But you have to start somewhere I suppose.

kavok wrote:

The TPAC market from IND... I just don't see it. I mean, with enough subsidies, anything is possible. But looking around at Midwestern TPAC flights, AA is cutting back at ORD, and MSP (which is 2x the size of IND and has the backing of a DL hub) only just picked up their second TPAC flight. I just don't see the pax numbers to make a TPAC work from IND.

I could see a IND-MEX flight. AM with the DL JV makes that a possibility (or on Volaris as well). South America, I don't see that one either. The only current South American flights from the Midwest are from ORD and DTW. MSP isn't even there yet. But you have to start somewhere I suppose.

I can't speak for IND, but in BNA, I'm pretty sure if Nissan and Bridgestone made some seat guarantees, we could have a flight next year. The PDEW of BNA-Asia 180 as of the end of 2014, and I'm sure it has only grown since then. IND probably has similar numbers as it is a slightly bigger market (CSA wise). However, and I could be wrong, but I suspect BNA may be holding off on active pursuit of a TPAC flight until construction on the new international arrivals facility gets underway.

A 3-4x JL or NH 788 would work just fine for both IND and BNA (the two most likely mid-sized markets to get TPAC to Japan IMO). With some guarantees, it can work.

ADrum23 wrote:

kavok wrote:

The TPAC market from IND... I just don't see it. I mean, with enough subsidies, anything is possible. But looking around at Midwestern TPAC flights, AA is cutting back at ORD, and MSP (which is 2x the size of IND and has the backing of a DL hub) only just picked up their second TPAC flight. I just don't see the pax numbers to make a TPAC work from IND.

I could see a IND-MEX flight. AM with the DL JV makes that a possibility (or on Volaris as well). South America, I don't see that one either. The only current South American flights from the Midwest are from ORD and DTW. MSP isn't even there yet. But you have to start somewhere I suppose.

I can't speak for IND, but in BNA, I'm pretty sure if Nissan and Bridgestone made some seat guarantees, we could have a flight next year. The PDEW of BNA-Asia 180 as of the end of 2014, and I'm sure it has only grown since then. IND probably has similar numbers as it is a slightly bigger market (CSA wise). However, and I could be wrong, but I suspect BNA may be holding off on active pursuit of a TPAC flight until construction on the new international arrivals facility gets underway.

A 3-4x JL or NH 788 would work just fine for both IND and BNA (the two most likely mid-sized markets to get TPAC to Japan IMO). With some guarantees, it can work.

I agree about South America, no way IND-South America happens anytime soon. IND-MEX is going to happen soon, it is just a matter of time.

Now in terms of IND-Asia, that is where things get interesting, I don't think routes like IND/BNA-Asia will be able to stand on their own without some connections on both ends. So I assume DL/AA/JL or whoever starts these routes will add connections on the US side to feed these flights. I don't think BNA-Asia is as imminent as IND-Asia, as we've been hearing reports about IND being close to an Asia flight for a few months now.

Midwestindy wrote:

ADrum23 wrote:

kavok wrote:

The TPAC market from IND... I just don't see it. I mean, with enough subsidies, anything is possible. But looking around at Midwestern TPAC flights, AA is cutting back at ORD, and MSP (which is 2x the size of IND and has the backing of a DL hub) only just picked up their second TPAC flight. I just don't see the pax numbers to make a TPAC work from IND.

I could see a IND-MEX flight. AM with the DL JV makes that a possibility (or on Volaris as well). South America, I don't see that one either. The only current South American flights from the Midwest are from ORD and DTW. MSP isn't even there yet. But you have to start somewhere I suppose.

I can't speak for IND, but in BNA, I'm pretty sure if Nissan and Bridgestone made some seat guarantees, we could have a flight next year. The PDEW of BNA-Asia 180 as of the end of 2014, and I'm sure it has only grown since then. IND probably has similar numbers as it is a slightly bigger market (CSA wise). However, and I could be wrong, but I suspect BNA may be holding off on active pursuit of a TPAC flight until construction on the new international arrivals facility gets underway.

A 3-4x JL or NH 788 would work just fine for both IND and BNA (the two most likely mid-sized markets to get TPAC to Japan IMO). With some guarantees, it can work.

I agree about South America, no way IND-South America happens anytime soon. IND-MEX is going to happen soon, it is just a matter of time.

Now in terms of IND-Asia, that is where things get interesting, I don't think routes like IND/BNA-Asia will be able to stand on their own without some connections on both ends. So I assume DL/AA/JL or whoever starts these routes will add connections on the US side to feed these flights. I don't think BNA-Asia is as imminent as IND-Asia, as we've been hearing reports about IND being close to an Asia flight for a few months now.

JL has 788’s that are configured with 206 seats, 30 J and 176 Y. That is less than the BA has on their 788 flight from BNA. I’m pretty sure IND and BNA could handle that 3x week w/o connections.

Hub? We have a hub it’s FEDEX! Haha!

I really don’t see any airline opening a hub here at IND. The terminal isn’t even set up for that! They do need to redo international arrivals !

SumChristianus wrote:

Quite impressive! I wonder what he means by hub though? UA definitely not, AA - No, WN - Retreating, AS - Laugh, B6 - Same, DL - Maybe but SO unlikely.

Also in the document: https://www.in.gov/gov/files/NextLevel%20Connections%20facts%20sheet.pdf

Goal is to connect to more international hubs in North America, Asia and Europe

Would this mean YUL or do you see it more as MEX/GDL/PTY?

Exciting times ahead. At the current rate IND could hit 9.1 million+ in 2018: https://d1j6zi7czwjuok.cloudfront.net/i ... Report.pdf

Still UA has been falling in passenger numbers, against the airport trend for several months.
Any idea why? They're running a 73G tomorrow IND-IAD with pretty bad loads. Anecdotal, but something will need to change for UA to consistently fill its October schedule with up to 6x daily mainline (2x SFO, 1x DEN, 2x ORD, 1x IAD)
Still hoping for a DEN schedule improvement with the supposed February rebanking of UA's DEN hub, but mainline on IND-IAH, which has come up now and again in the past doesn't seem to be in this winter's schedule while DEN is also down (it seems) and ORD looks choked on the early morning services (probably trying to route people via SFO and IAD, but a CR7 seems a bit small for the early morning originator.

Any of you think WN pulling off IND-EWR leaves space for G4 or B6 to New York City from here?

I don't think he means "hub," probably more a kin to a focus city. The governor has an obsession with using the word hub to describe anything
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Honestly, it isn't that surprising that UA isn't that strong in IND. Remember, Outside of SFO all of their routes have fierce competition from more established carriers in IND. UA has so many 50 seaters, it makes sense that IAH is staying RJ despite its relatively strong LFs.
-------
Perhaps, we will probably have to wait until S19 for any new routes on G4 though

Midwestindy wrote:

Now in terms of IND-Asia, that is where things get interesting, I don't think routes like IND/BNA-Asia will be able to stand on their own without some connections on both ends. So I assume DL/AA/JL or whoever starts these routes will add connections on the US side to feed these flights. I don't think BNA-Asia is as imminent as IND-Asia, as we've been hearing reports about IND being close to an Asia flight for a few months now.

While I don't know what the current level of activity is for a BNA-Asia flight, I do know that it could have begun around 2015 had the state ponied up the funds to get it going. I had a friend who worked in the Tennessee ECD who let it slip one day that there were high level discussions and that a flight was offered if the state would pay for the guarantee. From what I gathered, the cost was the sticking point and the state passed at that time.

I think this one instance is the only time I have ever had anything remotely close to inside information, and it was purely sheer luck that we became neighbors and friends with the person who told me that. Of course, I guess any city in the country could get TPAC flights if they wrote a big enough check, so the fact that an offer was on the table may not mean a whole lot.

What does preferred Midwest hub of international travel mean? preferred defined -" like better than another or others."

What are the other choices for International travel in the Midwest? ORD, DTW, MSP, CVG, STL, CMH, CLE, MKE, MCI and IND all have international flights: ORD, MSP and DTW have SUBSTANTIAL international services all supported by MAJOR HUB operations.

In addition to the aforementioned MW airports....the region has numerous int'l connection via one stops at: ATL, JFK, BOS, IAD, PHL, CLT, MIA, TPA, FLL, MCO, IAH. DFW, LAX, SFO, SEA, YYZ

Maybe the better/more realistic aspiration is preferred Indiana airport for Int'l travel? It is great IND has service to CDG, YZZ and various Mexico/Caribbean today. LHR and other Mexico/Canada/Caribbean are far more likely than TransPac.

Interesting discussion about DL Focus City at IND....similar to what NW had at one time....and a reason for stronger PAX growth (a passenger into IND that connects to another flight = 2 passengers...and there is no way to discern if that PAX is really O&D or connecting.....only one who really knows is the airline).

Comments about BNA and Bridgestone/Nissan operations 'assuring int' TPAC....are not based on reality. While those operations in Nashville are "large" they likely produce less than 10 people/day to Asia.

Dl Focus City at IND is interesting. CVG was dismantled in favor of DTW post DL/NW merger. O&D at DTW was big driver. CVG remains a focus city for DL with @100 daily departures on mainline/RJs. IND had been a Focus City for NW prior to DL merger. Now it appears that IND is progressing to become a DL Focus City with 50-60 daily departures? DL might be looking for growth by 'recreating the CVG hub' via Focus city ops in cities @ CVG...appears IND is next. Then maybe CMH and/or SDF. End result would be a formidable DL stronghold in CVG/IND/CMH/SDF encompassing a 10M+ catchment area.

BNA Air Service Director stated that 180 people a day fly to Asia from BNA. This was in 2014. https://nashvillepublicmedia.org/blog/2 ... ght-tokyo/

Bluegrass60 wrote:

What does preferred Midwest hub of international travel mean? preferred defined -" like better than another or others."

What are the other choices for International travel in the Midwest? ORD, DTW, MSP, CVG, STL, CMH, CLE, MKE, MCI and IND all have international flights: ORD, MSP and DTW have SUBSTANTIAL international services all supported by MAJOR HUB operations.

In addition to the aforementioned MW airports....the region has numerous int'l connection via one stops at: ATL, JFK, BOS, IAD, PHL, CLT, MIA, TPA, FLL, MCO, IAH. DFW, LAX, SFO, SEA, YYZ

Maybe the better/more realistic aspiration is preferred Indiana airport for Int'l travel? It is great IND has service to CDG, YZZ and various Mexico/Caribbean today. LHR and other Mexico/Canada/Caribbean are far more likely than TransPac.

Interesting discussion about DL Focus City at IND....similar to what NW had at one time....and a reason for stronger PAX growth (a passenger into IND that connects to another flight = 2 passengers...and there is no way to discern if that PAX is really O&D or connecting.....only one who really knows is the airline).

I don't think the term hub should be taken literally, but he wants to make IND an airport with a sizable amount of int'l travel, such that people from DAY, LAF, FWA, EVV, SDF, CMI, e.t.c will chose to drive to IND to fly int'l.

I'm a bit confused on your last point, to my understanding DL hasn't significantly changed its connecting passengers through IND. Really the only connections are going onto and off the CDG flight

Bluegrass60 wrote:

Comments about BNA and Bridgestone/Nissan operations 'assuring int' TPAC....are not based on reality. While those operations in Nashville are "large" they likely produce less than 10 people/day to Asia.

If each company is sending 10 or so people a day to Asia, I would say that is a pretty sizable amount of travel

Bluegrass60 wrote:

Dl Focus City at IND is interesting. CVG was dismantled in favor of DTW post DL/NW merger. O&D at DTW was big driver. CVG remains a focus city for DL with @100 daily departures on mainline/RJs. IND had been a Focus City for NW prior to DL merger. Now it appears that IND is progressing to become a DL Focus City with 50-60 daily departures? DL might be looking for growth by 'recreating the CVG hub' via Focus city ops in cities @ CVG...appears IND is next. Then maybe CMH and/or SDF. End result would be a formidable DL stronghold in CVG/IND/CMH/SDF encompassing a 10M+ catchment area.

It is a pretty smart strategy by DL, they have point-of-sale strength in a lot of non-hub markets: MCO, IND, CVG, RDU, and LAS, UA and AA can not say the same

https://d1j6zi7czwjuok.cloudfront.net/i ... -11-17.pdf

I was at the airport today, and spoke to one of the IAA employees. Apparently, 40 out of 53 concessions locations have December 31, 2018 expirations.

https://d1j6zi7czwjuok.cloudfront.net/i ... 18-003.pdf

The plan is to downsize the Civic Plaza offerings, and Eliminate some Concession Square Footage In Civic Plaza

30% of Concessions space would be Pre-Security, and 70% would be Post-Security. Also, they plan on decreasing the Concessions spaces by 4 while also getting rid of 3,000 Square Feet of Concessions Space

https://www.planetbids.com/portal/porta ... nyID=32621

IND will also be adding in Real-Time Passenger Wait Monitoring systems

I just was in IND for Labor Day weekend going to the NHRA event and there was Boeing 727 sitting on the tarmac.Darn! I didn't have my camera phone ready to take a picture. High five to Southwest on excellent on time service.

Bluegrass60 wrote:
Comments about BNA and Bridgestone/Nissan operations 'assuring int' TPAC....are not based on reality. While those operations in Nashville are "large" they likely produce less than 10 people/day to Asia.


If each company is sending 10 or so people a day to Asia, I would say that is a pretty sizable amount of travel


If COMBINED they send 10 people/day I would be very surprised.

When NW had Focus ops at IND they had connecting traffic. DL will have same if IND elevated to Focus city. How O&D and Connecting pax are calcualted is not understood by anyone on this forum

Midwestindy wrote:

He wants to turn IND into a "Midwest Hub," wants to add more flights "throughout" Europe/Asia/NA when the numbers work. $20 million is no small number, quite the statement

Here is the tweet: https://twitter.com/GovHolcomb/status/1 ... 8489702400
"Indianapolis will become the preferred Midwest hub of international travel. We are looking at Asia, Central & South America, & Europe where we can add a nonstop flight to & from @INDairport."

WN already serves destinations in Mexico, Central America, and the Caribbean, including the following:

• BZE in Belize
• LIR and SJO in Costa Rica
• CUN, MEX, PVR, and SJD in Mexico
• AUA, GCM, HAV, MBJ, NAS, PLS, PUJ, and SJU in the Caribbean

In addition to all the Midwest airports already listed...also MDW for the WN routes to Central, South America, Mexico and Caribbean.