flyboy80
Posts: 2014
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2001 8:10 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:20 pm

Is there anyway to tell which airline is the dominant carrier now to Asia from Indianapolis? I would imagine Delta with connections through DTW and probably equally United through ORD. For any IND- Asia to be successful, they’ll need plentiful connection opportunities on the Asia side I would believe.
 
User avatar
zackary747
Posts: 583
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:41 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:21 pm

flyboy80 wrote:
Is there anyway to tell which airline is the dominant carrier now to Asia from Indianapolis? I would imagine Delta with connections through DTW and probably equally United through ORD. For any IND- Asia to be successful, they’ll need plentiful connection opportunities on the Asia side I would believe.


I agree. Connections are an absolute necessity.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Indianapolis Airport Spotter

Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Instagram, Flickr
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 3939
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:42 pm

flyboy80 wrote:
Is there anyway to tell which airline is the dominant carrier now to Asia from Indianapolis? I would imagine Delta with connections through DTW and probably equally United through ORD. For any IND- Asia to be successful, they’ll need plentiful connection opportunities on the Asia side I would believe.


From May 2017-May 2018

Outbound from IND:
UA-31% of traffic(-5.1% YOY)
DL-20% of traffic(+0.1% YOY)
AA-13% of traffic(+0.6% YOY)
AC, KE, EY, NH, JL all have around 5% market share

Inbound to IND
DL-29% of traffic(-0.2% YOY)
UA-21% of traffic(-1.8% YOY)
AA-16% of traffic(+1.5% YOY)
JL-10% of traffic(+1.5% YOY)
NH-5% of traffic(+0.05% YOY)
QF, KE, EY are next
Delta Diamond Medallion and AAdvantage Gold for 2019
 
adam47150
Posts: 64
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:21 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:23 pm

Midwestindy wrote:

From May 2017-May 2018

Outbound from IND:
UA-31% of traffic(-5.1% YOY)
DL-20% of traffic(+0.1% YOY)
AA-13% of traffic(+0.6% YOY)
AC, KE, EY, NH, JL all have around 5% market share


Stupid question, but what was the total outbound passenger count for this time period?
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 3939
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:34 pm

adam47150 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

From May 2017-May 2018

Outbound from IND:
UA-31% of traffic(-5.1% YOY)
DL-20% of traffic(+0.1% YOY)
AA-13% of traffic(+0.6% YOY)
AC, KE, EY, NH, JL all have around 5% market share


Stupid question, but what was the total outbound passenger count for this time period?


46,733 passengers

By cabin
F: 0.3%
J: 14.8%
Y: 83.0%
Unknown: 1.9%
Delta Diamond Medallion and AAdvantage Gold for 2019
 
fedex1
Posts: 296
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:54 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:11 pm

So 46,733 is the amount of passengers that flew IND - XXX - XXX? In a one year period to Asia. . . ? Not just Japan, or China? Is that a decent amount? Or should that be more? ORD is cutting back, major hubs their. . .
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 3939
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:54 pm

fedex1 wrote:
So 46,733 is the amount of passengers that flew IND - XXX - XXX? In a one year period to Asia. . . ? Not just Japan, or China? Is that a decent amount? Or should that be more? ORD is cutting back, major hubs their. . .


Yes, keep in mind there is significant bleed to ORD especially from the Lafayette area, which I believe has the highest asian population in Indiana.


http://www.insideindianabusiness.com/st ... nal-flight
Delta Diamond Medallion and AAdvantage Gold for 2019
 
User avatar
zackary747
Posts: 583
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:41 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:17 am

I heard that Eric Holcomb was speaking at Lafayette about Next Level Connections. Apparently he said that London was top priority for the 20 million dollars. On Inside Indiana Business Holcomb did say that Paris was 'exceeding expectations'. So maybe they're going after London earlier because of this?

So according to all the clues that have been collected we could possibly see this.


Using the 20 million

LON (Probably LHR)
Asia (My guess is still NRT/HND)
Mexico City

Probably NOT using the 20 million (These flights would be leisure heavy and I would expect that the money would be used for business heavy routes only)

LCC TATL (Condor, WOW, Icelandair, etc.)

Mario did mention looking at MULTIPLE points in Mexico. Volaris to GDL perhaps?



Let me know of your guys' thoughts below. Did I miss something? This is all speculation of course and I don't expect all of this to happen at one given time.
Indianapolis Airport Spotter

Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Instagram, Flickr
 
fedex1
Posts: 296
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:54 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:21 am

I don’t want IND to wind up like PIT, and chase Delta off because LHR is added. Can IND really support LHR, and CDG?? Realistically. . . ?!?
 
User avatar
zackary747
Posts: 583
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:41 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:26 am

fedex1 wrote:
I don’t want IND to wind up like PIT, and chase Delta off because LHR is added. Can IND really support LHR, and CDG?? Realistically. . . ?!?


I think in the long term IND could. I don't know about right away tho. RDU was able to do it, so I think IND should look at what RDU did and try to replicate that. When it comes to PIT based on the very limited data that I have to look at their market share compared to DL and AA are very different. AAs market share in PIT is 8 percent higher than DL. It's kind of hard for DL to get business contracts when AA offers the most flights overall. That's why I think BA in PIT will be much more successful for them in the long term. DL just couldn't make it work, but it doesn't mean that IND can't. DL and AAs market share in IND is about equal. So if there are enough business contracts/people to go around (Idk if there is) we could potentially make both flights work. Again I am only looking at market share here and there is so much more to the story. Maybe MidwestIndy can offer more data.
Indianapolis Airport Spotter

Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Instagram, Flickr
 
fedex1
Posts: 296
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:54 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:28 am

Sounds like a HUBE gamble to me. . . Isn’t IND a very small market ?
 
User avatar
zackary747
Posts: 583
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:41 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:30 am

fedex1 wrote:
Sounds like a HUBE gamble to me. . . Isn’t IND a very small market ?


We're a medium sized market. RDU is so far the only airport that has made LHR and CDG work. Not sure how they did it but maybe someone around here knows.
Indianapolis Airport Spotter

Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Instagram, Flickr
 
fedex1
Posts: 296
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:54 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:31 am

Hmmmm. . . Not very comforting! LoL
 
User avatar
stl07
Posts: 1417
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:22 am

zackary747 wrote:
fedex1 wrote:
Sounds like a HUBE gamble to me. . . Isn’t IND a very small market ?


We're a medium sized market. RDU is so far the only airport that has made LHR and CDG work. Not sure how they did it but maybe someone around here knows.

LHR has a cooperate contract. That's why it's on AA of all airlines.
Interesting how every thread is spammed with "bring back paid membership, there are too many spammers"
 
User avatar
zackary747
Posts: 583
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:41 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:24 am

stl07 wrote:
zackary747 wrote:
fedex1 wrote:
Sounds like a HUBE gamble to me. . . Isn’t IND a very small market ?


We're a medium sized market. RDU is so far the only airport that has made LHR and CDG work. Not sure how they did it but maybe someone around here knows.

LHR has a cooperate contract. That's why it's on AA of all airlines.


that's what I was thinking. I am assuming the CDG flight has business contracts as well?
Indianapolis Airport Spotter

Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Instagram, Flickr
 
User avatar
stl07
Posts: 1417
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:26 am

zackary747 wrote:
stl07 wrote:
zackary747 wrote:

We're a medium sized market. RDU is so far the only airport that has made LHR and CDG work. Not sure how they did it but maybe someone around here knows.

LHR has a cooperate contract. That's why it's on AA of all airlines.


that's what I was thinking. I am assuming the CDG flight has business contracts as well?

I'm pretty sure it does too. not 100 % but I think I saw it somewhere
Interesting how every thread is spammed with "bring back paid membership, there are too many spammers"
 
ADrum23
Posts: 1789
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:54 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:43 am

zackary747 wrote:
fedex1 wrote:
I don’t want IND to wind up like PIT, and chase Delta off because LHR is added. Can IND really support LHR, and CDG?? Realistically. . . ?!?


I think in the long term IND could. I don't know about right away tho. RDU was able to do it, so I think IND should look at what RDU did and try to replicate that. When it comes to PIT based on the very limited data that I have to look at their market share compared to DL and AA are very different. AAs market share in PIT is 8 percent higher than DL. It's kind of hard for DL to get business contracts when AA offers the most flights overall. That's why I think BA in PIT will be much more successful for them in the long term. DL just couldn't make it work, but it doesn't mean that IND can't. DL and AAs market share in IND is about equal. So if there are enough business contracts/people to go around (Idk if there is) we could potentially make both flights work. Again I am only looking at market share here and there is so much more to the story. Maybe MidwestIndy can offer more data.


Keep in mind though that RDU is on a whole other level than IND, in that is it a faster growing business market in the sunbelt that has a ton of international travel. There is a reason RDU has been able to sustain a London flight for almost 25 years now. Paris wasn't added until over two decades later, but now both year round and daily on a 777/767 respectively.

As of now, with the exception of AUS (which is a whole other conversation), I don't think another mid-sized market can support two year round legacy TATL flights, whether that would be IND, BNA, CVG, PIT, etc. All of those airports would be wise to let their existing TATL flights grow and mature first. Then in a few years from now, they can add more.
 
fedex1
Posts: 296
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:54 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:44 am

So you people really think LHR & CDG could co-exist? Without hurting one or the other here at IND?
 
ADrum23
Posts: 1789
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:54 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:45 am

fedex1 wrote:
So you people really think LHR & CDG could co-exist? Without hurting one or the other here at IND?


Not right now, no. See my post above.
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 3939
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:47 am

stl07 wrote:
zackary747 wrote:
stl07 wrote:
LHR has a cooperate contract. That's why it's on AA of all airlines.


that's what I was thinking. I am assuming the CDG flight has business contracts as well?

I'm pretty sure it does too. not 100 % but I think I saw it somewhere


Every flight has "business contracts" the important thing is how sizable those contracts are.... A contract with a huge consulting firm like Accenture or accounting firm like Deloitte is much different then having a contract with some retail corporation.
Delta Diamond Medallion and AAdvantage Gold for 2019
 
User avatar
zackary747
Posts: 583
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:41 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:47 am

ADrum23 wrote:
fedex1 wrote:
So you people really think LHR & CDG could co-exist? Without hurting one or the other here at IND?


Not right now, no. See my post above.


Yeah I would have to agree. I would say we would have to wait and let the route mature first and see business growth off that one flight before adding any other legacy. LCC is a different story tho. Not sure why the state is going after it this early but we'll see what happens.
Indianapolis Airport Spotter

Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Instagram, Flickr
 
User avatar
zackary747
Posts: 583
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:41 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:49 am

Midwestindy wrote:
stl07 wrote:
zackary747 wrote:

that's what I was thinking. I am assuming the CDG flight has business contracts as well?

I'm pretty sure it does too. not 100 % but I think I saw it somewhere


Every flight has "business contracts" the important thing is how sizable those contracts are.... A contract with a huge consulting firm like Accenture or accounting firm like Deloitte is much different then having a contract with some retail corporation.


Yes that is very true. I would like to know which IND companies have contracts with Delta and which ones have contracts with American. Not sure if that is public information.
Indianapolis Airport Spotter

Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Instagram, Flickr
 
fedex1
Posts: 296
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:54 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:53 am

I thought as much. When someone said IND was going* or thinking about getting LHR service, there is NO WAY IND could support that. I am a huge IND fan but let’s face it we are a very small market, I would not call us medium.
 
User avatar
zackary747
Posts: 583
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:41 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:55 am

fedex1 wrote:
I thought as much. When someone said IND was going* or thinking about getting LHR service, there is NO WAY IND could support that. I am a huge IND fan but let’s face it we are a very small market, I would not call us medium.


Small markets are cities like FWA, SBN, EVV. Indy has a metro population of 2 million. Regardless of how many TATL flights we can handle we are a medium market. We were a medium market even before CDG was talked about. We are not on the same level as Fort Wayne.

FWA equals small.
IND equals medium
ORD equals large.

Just because you can only handle one TATL flight doesn't mean you're a small market. Having that one TATL flight is the definition of a medium market. And yes, some medium markets (business wise) is stronger than others.

CMH has no TATL service (yet) and they are still a medium sized city/market.
Indianapolis Airport Spotter

Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Instagram, Flickr
 
fedex1
Posts: 296
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:54 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:08 am

I travel to STL, and population in the”proper” city houses are super close, like Chicago, IND the houses are super tight only in the inner city! Population is spread out all over the place! I am very familiar with IMPD and their best break downs, and we are spread out unlike other cities! IND needs to keep growing the downtown with high rise, good paying jobs, and keep progressing before we worry about another international flight! I am super excited we have CDG!
 
User avatar
zackary747
Posts: 583
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:41 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:11 am

fedex1 wrote:
I travel to STL, and population in the”proper” city houses are super close, like Chicago, IND the houses are super tight only in the inner city! Population is spread out all over the place! I am very familiar with IMPD and their best break downs, and we are spread out unlike other cities! IND needs to keep growing the downtown with high rise, good paying jobs, and keep progressing before we worry about another international flight! I am super excited we have CDG!


Yes the urban sprawl here is a problem, but that is another topic for a different forum. We are also not the only city having urban sprawl issues as well. That doesn't change that fact that we're still a medium sized major city.
Indianapolis Airport Spotter

Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Instagram, Flickr
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 3939
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:02 am

zackary747 wrote:
fedex1 wrote:
I don’t want IND to wind up like PIT, and chase Delta off because LHR is added. Can IND really support LHR, and CDG?? Realistically. . . ?!?


I think in the long term IND could. I don't know about right away tho. RDU was able to do it, so I think IND should look at what RDU did and try to replicate that. When it comes to PIT based on the very limited data that I have to look at their market share compared to DL and AA are very different. AAs market share in PIT is 8 percent higher than DL. It's kind of hard for DL to get business contracts when AA offers the most flights overall. That's why I think BA in PIT will be much more successful for them in the long term. DL just couldn't make it work, but it doesn't mean that IND can't. DL and AAs market share in IND is about equal. So if there are enough business contracts/people to go around (Idk if there is) we could potentially make both flights work. Again I am only looking at market share here and there is so much more to the story. Maybe MidwestIndy can offer more data.


What specifically were you interested in?
Delta Diamond Medallion and AAdvantage Gold for 2019
 
User avatar
zackary747
Posts: 583
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:41 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:10 am

Midwestindy wrote:
zackary747 wrote:
fedex1 wrote:
I don’t want IND to wind up like PIT, and chase Delta off because LHR is added. Can IND really support LHR, and CDG?? Realistically. . . ?!?


I think in the long term IND could. I don't know about right away tho. RDU was able to do it, so I think IND should look at what RDU did and try to replicate that. When it comes to PIT based on the very limited data that I have to look at their market share compared to DL and AA are very different. AAs market share in PIT is 8 percent higher than DL. It's kind of hard for DL to get business contracts when AA offers the most flights overall. That's why I think BA in PIT will be much more successful for them in the long term. DL just couldn't make it work, but it doesn't mean that IND can't. DL and AAs market share in IND is about equal. So if there are enough business contracts/people to go around (Idk if there is) we could potentially make both flights work. Again I am only looking at market share here and there is so much more to the story. Maybe MidwestIndy can offer more data.


What specifically were you interested in?


Does DL have a significant advantage when it comes to business contracts here, or is it about equal? (Compared to AA) I'm asking from the basis of the power of the business contract (like you said earlier. An accounting firm is going to have a stronger business contract than some retail company.)

Assuming that the strength of the business contracts are similar do you think two legacy flights would work in the long term? Also, what is your opinion on Gov. Holcomb's comments about London? I hope my question is clear. It's kind of hard to explain via text. I am just trying to pick your brain that's all.
Indianapolis Airport Spotter

Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Instagram, Flickr
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 3939
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:39 am

zackary747 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
zackary747 wrote:

I think in the long term IND could. I don't know about right away tho. RDU was able to do it, so I think IND should look at what RDU did and try to replicate that. When it comes to PIT based on the very limited data that I have to look at their market share compared to DL and AA are very different. AAs market share in PIT is 8 percent higher than DL. It's kind of hard for DL to get business contracts when AA offers the most flights overall. That's why I think BA in PIT will be much more successful for them in the long term. DL just couldn't make it work, but it doesn't mean that IND can't. DL and AAs market share in IND is about equal. So if there are enough business contracts/people to go around (Idk if there is) we could potentially make both flights work. Again I am only looking at market share here and there is so much more to the story. Maybe MidwestIndy can offer more data.


What specifically were you interested in?


Does DL have a significant advantage when it comes to business contracts here, or is it about equal? (Compared to AA) I'm asking from the basis of the power of the business contract (like you said earlier. An accounting firm is going to have a stronger business contract than some retail company.)

Assuming that the strength of the business contracts are similar do you think two legacy flights would work in the long term? Also, what is your opinion on Gov. Holcomb's comments about London? I hope my question is clear. It's kind of hard to explain via text. I am just trying to pick your brain that's all.


A.net misinterprets corporate contracts, because in reality they aren't usually that simple. For instance, these contracts change year to year as companies and airlines evolve.

For instance, one of the main reasons IND-SFO was started on UA was because Lilly changed its policy of requiring employees to always take the cheapest flight on a route, and now Lilly is shifting more of its corporate travel to nonstop flights. Only 44 percent of their U.S. bookings in 2016 were nonstop...

Also to add on, a corporate travel contract doesn't usually mean the company only flies on X airline, it usually means that a company has to do X% or travel or spend X amount of dollars with the airline or on a select number of routes.

In short I don't have any data on the intricacies of each companies corporate travel contracts, as that information is usually pretty confidential (although anecdotally AA and DL seem to be the ones gaining the most contracts). The easiest way to figure that out is if you get the PRISM data
Delta Diamond Medallion and AAdvantage Gold for 2019
 
flyboy80
Posts: 2014
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2001 8:10 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:36 am

I wonder if Delta/ VA may come in and supplement the CDG service with LHR service sooner than later depending on how aggressive they 'can' be in this size market. It would need to be seasonal LHR service like PDX has, and I imagine 3-4x weekly May-Aug. They would probably reduce CDG to 5x or 6x weekly during the same seasonal period LHR would operate. I imagine this would give them a good balance of meeting seasonal Trans Atlantic demand from Indy and remaining preferable year round with corporate travelers.
 
Bluegrass60
Posts: 274
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:15 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:56 am

ADrum23 wrote:
zackary747 wrote:
fedex1 wrote:
I don’t want IND to wind up like PIT, and chase Delta off because LHR is added. Can IND really support LHR, and CDG?? Realistically. . . ?!?


I think in the long term IND could. I don't know about right away tho. RDU was able to do it, so I think IND should look at what RDU did and try to replicate that. When it comes to PIT based on the very limited data that I have to look at their market share compared to DL and AA are very different. AAs market share in PIT is 8 percent higher than DL. It's kind of hard for DL to get business contracts when AA offers the most flights overall. That's why I think BA in PIT will be much more successful for them in the long term. DL just couldn't make it work, but it doesn't mean that IND can't. DL and AAs market share in IND is about equal. So if there are enough business contracts/people to go around (Idk if there is) we could potentially make both flights work. Again I am only looking at market share here and there is so much more to the story. Maybe MidwestIndy can offer more data.


Keep in mind though that RDU is on a whole other level than IND, in that is it a faster growing business market in the sunbelt that has a ton of international travel. There is a reason RDU has been able to sustain a London flight for almost 25 years now. Paris wasn't added until over two decades later, but now both year round and daily on a 777/767 respectively.

As of now, with the exception of AUS (which is a whole other conversation), I don't think another mid-sized market can support two year round legacy TATL flights, whether that would be IND, BNA, CVG, PIT, etc. All of those airports would be wise to let their existing TATL flights grow and mature first. Then in a few years from now, they can add more.


"RDU is @ 1 hour (67 miles) from the Greensboro/Winston-Salem MSA. Population 1.6M (SAT is 80 miles from AUS). Along with RTP, the proximity to the GSO MSA is the big reason for RDU growth and ability to support CDG and LHR. (CLT is 157 miles from RDU.)

Agree that IND would have hard time supporting added TATL or any TAPAC. CVG, SDF and DAY are the largest metros near Indy and all of them are @ double the distance from GSO to RDU. CVG, SDF and DAY have at the very least "adequate air service" to provide their catchment with service to Europe, Asia, Mexico either direct or via connection. Then factor in the ORD/MDW effect on the northern portion of the IND catchment area.....
 
Indy
Posts: 4840
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:37 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:24 pm

Bluegrass60 wrote:
Agree that IND would have hard time supporting added TATL or any TAPAC. CVG, SDF and DAY are the largest metros near Indy and all of them are @ double the distance from GSO to RDU. CVG, SDF and DAY have at the very least "adequate air service" to provide their catchment with service to Europe, Asia, Mexico either direct or via connection. Then factor in the ORD/MDW effect on the northern portion of the IND catchment area.....


Greensboro to RDU is only relatively fast if you take the toll road. Otherwise it is just shy of 2 hours. It is pretty much the same drive time as Louisville, KY, and Cincinnati, OH to IND. Add another 15-20 minutes and you can include Dayton. Ft. Wayne would fall into the same category as Dayton. Of course IND can/will pull from Terre Haute and Bloomington, IN which are all outside of the metro area. IND can pull from some pretty big cities to fill TPAC flights. Metro areas like Cincinnati and Louisville are much bigger than Greensboro metro.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
User avatar
zackary747
Posts: 583
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:41 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:30 pm

Indy wrote:
Bluegrass60 wrote:
Agree that IND would have hard time supporting added TATL or any TAPAC. CVG, SDF and DAY are the largest metros near Indy and all of them are @ double the distance from GSO to RDU. CVG, SDF and DAY have at the very least "adequate air service" to provide their catchment with service to Europe, Asia, Mexico either direct or via connection. Then factor in the ORD/MDW effect on the northern portion of the IND catchment area.....


Greensboro to RDU is only relatively fast if you take the toll road. Otherwise it is just shy of 2 hours. It is pretty much the same drive time as Louisville, KY, and Cincinnati, OH to IND. Add another 15-20 minutes and you can include Dayton. Ft. Wayne would fall into the same category as Dayton. Of course IND can/will pull from Terre Haute and Bloomington, IN which are all outside of the metro area. IND can pull from some pretty big cities to fill TPAC flights. Metro areas like Cincinnati and Louisville are much bigger than Greensboro metro.


People seem to forget we’re not just talking about the business climate in Indianapolis (which has grown Significantly over the years tech being a huge portion). We’re talking about the business climate in the whole state. From a state perspective the data suggests that Indianapolis can handle a transpacific flight with the proper amount of collaboration. The state didn’t put 20 million dollars down for no reason. TPAC and Mexico City is coming and there’s proof of it by the means of data and from the mouth of the airport and State officials.

The state government is very strict about not wasting money (hince our 1.9 billion dollar surplus). They would only work with the companies and fork up the incentive dollars if it was viable. Indiana from a business perspective is completely different than it was 10 years ago.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Indianapolis Airport Spotter

Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Instagram, Flickr
 
Bluegrass60
Posts: 274
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:15 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:56 pm

zackary747 wrote:
Indy wrote:
Bluegrass60 wrote:
Agree that IND would have hard time supporting added TATL or any TAPAC. CVG, SDF and DAY are the largest metros near Indy and all of them are @ double the distance from GSO to RDU. CVG, SDF and DAY have at the very least "adequate air service" to provide their catchment with service to Europe, Asia, Mexico either direct or via connection. Then factor in the ORD/MDW effect on the northern portion of the IND catchment area.....


Greensboro to RDU is only relatively fast if you take the toll road. Otherwise it is just shy of 2 hours. It is pretty much the same drive time as Louisville, KY, and Cincinnati, OH to IND. Add another 15-20 minutes and you can include Dayton. Ft. Wayne would fall into the same category as Dayton. Of course IND can/will pull from Terre Haute and Bloomington, IN which are all outside of the metro area. IND can pull from some pretty big cities to fill TPAC flights. Metro areas like Cincinnati and Louisville are much bigger than Greensboro metro.


People seem to forget we’re not just talking about the business climate in Indianapolis (which has grown Significantly over the years tech being a huge portion). We’re talking about the business climate in the whole state. From a state perspective the data suggests that Indianapolis can handle a transpacific flight with the proper amount of collaboration. The state didn’t put 20 million dollars down for no reason. TPAC and Mexico City is coming and there’s proof of it by the means of data and from the mouth of the airport and State officials.

The state government is very strict about not wasting money (hince our 1.9 billion dollar surplus). They would only work with the companies and fork up the incentive dollars if it was viable. Indiana from a business perspective is completely different than it was 10 years ago.

"Am sure that Indiana State Gov is careful how they spend money. $20M is not much more than it would cost to fly IND-NRT one-way, M-F in year one. Why would anyone in CVG, SDF, DAY drive 2 hours to catch the one TPAC flight when they could fly one hour to ORD, DTW, ATL and have multiple choices...or fly further to DFW, LAX, SFO etc for even more choices. IND and the state of Indiana would be wise to use the $20M for something other than subsidizing one TPAC from IND.

as aside....tech has grown certainly....but doubt it is larger portion of IND economy than say...state government.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
User avatar
zackary747
Posts: 583
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:41 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:00 pm

I never said it was. Don't put words into my mouth. I just used that example as one of many examples. The tech industry isn't the only growing industry in this state. Tech is just one of many different things. Plus there is more to business travel than just the tech industry.

The TPAC flight isn't going to use all 20 million. Only about 10 million. Also, there is no need for anyone out of state to use the flight. We have enough business demand within our borders to make it work. This flight is for business, not leisure. It is also not for businesses that are out of state.
Indianapolis Airport Spotter

Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Instagram, Flickr
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 3939
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:06 am

Bluegrass60 wrote:
Why would anyone in CVG, SDF, DAY drive 2 hours to catch the one TPAC flight when they could fly one hour to ORD, DTW, ATL and have multiple choices...or fly further to DFW, LAX, SFO etc for even more choices.


I don't know you should probably ask the numerous people who are coming from SDF, CMI, EVV, e.t.c to fly out of IND every day.
Delta Diamond Medallion and AAdvantage Gold for 2019
 
Jshank83
Posts: 2678
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:39 am

Midwestindy wrote:
Bluegrass60 wrote:
Why would anyone in CVG, SDF, DAY drive 2 hours to catch the one TPAC flight when they could fly one hour to ORD, DTW, ATL and have multiple choices...or fly further to DFW, LAX, SFO etc for even more choices.


I don't know you should probably ask the numerous people who are coming from SDF, CMI, EVV, e.t.c to fly out of IND every day.


I would guess a lot of it is based on price. That is main reason I know people who will drive 4 hours to catch a flight at a further away airport. Although, I am not convinced when you factor in gas, etc that it really saves them all that much in the end.
 
kavok
Posts: 544
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:23 am

Don’t sell yourself short. As far as the RDU comparison, IND is just as strong of a market. Frankly, I wouldn’t be surprised to see BA drop RDU in the coming years, even though it is a fast growing market.

The BA flight is a legacy leftover from the days when RDU was a hub. With the DL focus city and growing allegiance of corporate/FF to Delta in that market, I am not sure how long BA keeps the RDU flight if more profitable opportunities exist elsewhere.

If IND is really serious about getting a LHR flight, DL/VS to LHR is not completely out of the question either... especially if the CDG flight does well.
 
User avatar
zackary747
Posts: 583
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:41 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:26 am

kavok wrote:
Don’t sell yourself short. As far as the RDU comparison, IND is just as strong of a market. Frankly, I wouldn’t be surprised to see BA drop RDU in the coming years, even though it is a fast growing market.

The BA flight is a legacy leftover from the days when RDU was a hub. With the DL focus city and growing allegiance of corporate/FF to Delta in that market, I am not sure how long BA keeps the RDU flight if more profitable opportunities exist elsewhere.

If IND is really serious about getting a LHR flight, DL/VS to LHR is not completely out of the question either... especially if the CDG flight does well.


AA serves RDU, not BA.

When it comes to market strength (especially tech) IND has pretty much caught up for the most part. RDU May be a bit stronger but it’s not astronomically different like it used to be. Indiana and Indianapolis’ business climate and strength is stronger than what meets the eye as so much development has happened and is continuing to happen.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Indianapolis Airport Spotter

Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Instagram, Flickr
 
Indy
Posts: 4840
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:37 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:35 am

Midwestindy wrote:
Bluegrass60 wrote:
Why would anyone in CVG, SDF, DAY drive 2 hours to catch the one TPAC flight when they could fly one hour to ORD, DTW, ATL and have multiple choices...or fly further to DFW, LAX, SFO etc for even more choices.


I don't know you should probably ask the numerous people who are coming from SDF, CMI, EVV, e.t.c to fly out of IND every day.


Exactly. Plus anyone that has dealt with an international arrival at ORD knows just what a terrible experience that is. A two hour drive to IND is still better than a connection on an international fight. There is the 1 hour flight plus the 2+ hour layover before an international flight. You might be able to shorten that a little on the outbound flight but you won't be able to on the inbound flight. You can face long waits clearing customs in the major airports followed by a long hike to your gate. If your flight ends in IND you just get your bag, go through customs, and drive home. And when it comes to the idea of multiple choices.... for the most part there aren't multiple choices when it comes to TPAC service. And what if that flight is delayed over oversold? Great thing about having an airport like IND getting the service is that it gives the carrier another location to route passengers through in the event of a delay or cancellation. Anyone that has watched the CDG flight over the summer knows how many times the flight picked up additional passengers due to irregular ops somewhere else.

What some posters don't seem to understand is that places like IND get international flights because people don't want that extra connection. They don't want the hassle that comes with dealing with big hubs. They want to get from point A to point B as fast as possible and connections don't get the job done.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
User avatar
zackary747
Posts: 583
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:41 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:40 am

Indy wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Bluegrass60 wrote:
Why would anyone in CVG, SDF, DAY drive 2 hours to catch the one TPAC flight when they could fly one hour to ORD, DTW, ATL and have multiple choices...or fly further to DFW, LAX, SFO etc for even more choices.


I don't know you should probably ask the numerous people who are coming from SDF, CMI, EVV, e.t.c to fly out of IND every day.


Exactly. Plus anyone that has dealt with an international arrival at ORD knows just what a terrible experience that is. A two hour drive to IND is still better than a connection on an international fight. There is the 1 hour flight plus the 2+ hour layover before an international flight. You might be able to shorten that a little on the outbound flight but you won't be able to on the inbound flight. You can face long waits clearing customs in the major airports followed by a long hike to your gate. If your flight ends in IND you just get your bag, go through customs, and drive home. And when it comes to the idea of multiple choices.... for the most part there aren't multiple choices when it comes to TPAC service. And what if that flight is delayed over oversold? Great thing about having an airport like IND getting the service is that it gives the carrier another location to route passengers through in the event of a delay or cancellation. Anyone that has watched the CDG flight over the summer knows how many times the flight picked up additional passengers due to irregular ops somewhere else.

What some posters don't seem to understand is that places like IND get international flights because people don't want that extra connection. They don't want the hassle that comes with dealing with big hubs. They want to get from point A to point B as fast as possible and connections don't get the job done.


Bingo. In business time is money. Indiana businesses would rather fly out of IND and have that nonstop or one stop connection rather than dealing with the hassle of 2 stop connections. When it comes to economic investment Indiana wants to grow and continue to set the bar high. Focusing on connectivity through the states main airport is key to take Indiana's economy to the Next Level.
Indianapolis Airport Spotter

Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Instagram, Flickr
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 3939
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:50 am

Indy wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Bluegrass60 wrote:
Why would anyone in CVG, SDF, DAY drive 2 hours to catch the one TPAC flight when they could fly one hour to ORD, DTW, ATL and have multiple choices...or fly further to DFW, LAX, SFO etc for even more choices.


I don't know you should probably ask the numerous people who are coming from SDF, CMI, EVV, e.t.c to fly out of IND every day.


Exactly. Plus anyone that has dealt with an international arrival at ORD knows just what a terrible experience that is. A two hour drive to IND is still better than a connection on an international fight. There is the 1 hour flight plus the 2+ hour layover before an international flight. You might be able to shorten that a little on the outbound flight but you won't be able to on the inbound flight. You can face long waits clearing customs in the major airports followed by a long hike to your gate. If your flight ends in IND you just get your bag, go through customs, and drive home. And when it comes to the idea of multiple choices.... for the most part there aren't multiple choices when it comes to TPAC service. And what if that flight is delayed over oversold? Great thing about having an airport like IND getting the service is that it gives the carrier another location to route passengers through in the event of a delay or cancellation. Anyone that has watched the CDG flight over the summer knows how many times the flight picked up additional passengers due to irregular ops somewhere else.

What some posters don't seem to understand is that places like IND get international flights because people don't want that extra connection. They don't want the hassle that comes with dealing with big hubs. They want to get from point A to point B as fast as possible and connections don't get the job done.


Actually, to be honest I haven't had a bad experience at ORD recently, and that is with a decent chunk of my flying currently O&D in and out of ORD. However, if you are connecting from int'l to domestic it isn't the "most ideal" airport to connect in.

With that being said, I look forward to DL leveraging IND as a connecting point and hopefully the rumor about the expanded Sky Club will help with that.
Delta Diamond Medallion and AAdvantage Gold for 2019
 
Indy
Posts: 4840
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:37 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:45 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Actually, to be honest I haven't had a bad experience at ORD recently, and that is with a decent chunk of my flying currently O&D in and out of ORD. However, if you are connecting from int'l to domestic it isn't the "most ideal" airport to connect in.

With that being said, I look forward to DL leveraging IND as a connecting point and hopefully the rumor about the expanded Sky Club will help with that.


I've had some long delays with customs in ORD. My mom had it pretty bad on her last trip to the U.S. to visit me. I think it took her a few hours to get through which of course caused her to miss her connecting flight. I think she was something like 5 hours late arriving in IND.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 3939
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:42 pm

Indy wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Actually, to be honest I haven't had a bad experience at ORD recently, and that is with a decent chunk of my flying currently O&D in and out of ORD. However, if you are connecting from int'l to domestic it isn't the "most ideal" airport to connect in.

With that being said, I look forward to DL leveraging IND as a connecting point and hopefully the rumor about the expanded Sky Club will help with that.


I've had some long delays with customs in ORD. My mom had it pretty bad on her last trip to the U.S. to visit me. I think it took her a few hours to get through which of course caused her to miss her connecting flight. I think she was something like 5 hours late arriving in IND.


Yeah, I wouldn't suggest connecting at ORD, the RJs out of ORD are delayed so often it isn't even funny. Anytime I have to connect int'l to domestic at ORD I usually allow at the minimum 3 hours, and usually that leaves me plenty of time to work at the Admiral's Club.

However, ORD doesn't even compare to the misery of EWR...
Last edited by Midwestindy on Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Delta Diamond Medallion and AAdvantage Gold for 2019
 
flyboy80
Posts: 2014
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2001 8:10 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:45 pm

I believe the IND-CDG flight is planned to go daily as early as April, not sure if that's reflected in the reservations system right now or not. Like I said earlier IND seems important for Delta and I could see them splitting the Europe flight in the high season and operating a combination of CDG/LHR 9x weekly (seasonal) like 6x CDG 3x LHR.

In regard to IND vs RDU: I read a while back a piece comparison on economics between major midwestern economic centers and IND outranked CMH & CVG in terms of value. Not sure if that's a good comparison of viability. Delta still has quite a bit of mainline to other than "real" hubs from CVG. But overall I'm thinking they only have a few more mainline flights vs Indy. Would it not be more valuable for Delta to focus, no pun intended, on Indy and just get rid of CVG or is CVG simply worth much more in value to Delta vs the IND market?
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 3939
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:59 pm

flyboy80 wrote:
I believe the IND-CDG flight is planned to go daily as early as April, not sure if that's reflected in the reservations system right now or not. Like I said earlier IND seems important for Delta and I could see them splitting the Europe flight in the high season and operating a combination of CDG/LHR 9x weekly (seasonal) like 6x CDG 3x LHR.

In regard to IND vs RDU: I read a while back a piece comparison on economics between major midwestern economic centers and IND outranked CMH & CVG in terms of value. Not sure if that's a good comparison of viability. Delta still has quite a bit of mainline to other than "real" hubs from CVG. But overall I'm thinking they only have a few more mainline flights vs Indy. Would it not be more valuable for Delta to focus, no pun intended, on Indy and just get rid of CVG or is CVG simply worth much more in value to Delta vs the IND market?


Is this a rumor, because I don't think the April schedule is finalized, back in April it was said that they planned for it to go to 5x weekly from April to May.

https://www.bts.gov/content/fares-airpo ... arter-2018
In terms of O&D and avg fare (Q1 2018) it goes
RDU-696,840-$348
IND-629,110-$340
CVG-517,690-$328
CMH-504,300-$362

So, in terms of O&D IND is significantly larger than both CVG and CMH

CVG isn't going anywhere for DL, they stopped cutting and they are likely going to keep it as is for the foreseeable future. DL can focus on both CVG and IND and every other market simultaneously.
Delta Diamond Medallion and AAdvantage Gold for 2019
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 3939
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:06 pm

It's about time!

https://www.indianapolisairport.com/abo ... dy-airport
"American and Southwest now offer new self-serve kiosks"


Image
Delta Diamond Medallion and AAdvantage Gold for 2019
 
kavok
Posts: 544
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:27 pm

zackary747 wrote:
kavok wrote:
Don’t sell yourself short. As far as the RDU comparison, IND is just as strong of a market. Frankly, I wouldn’t be surprised to see BA drop RDU in the coming years, even though it is a fast growing market.

The BA flight is a legacy leftover from the days when RDU was a hub. With the DL focus city and growing allegiance of corporate/FF to Delta in that market, I am not sure how long BA keeps the RDU flight if more profitable opportunities exist elsewhere.

If IND is really serious about getting a LHR flight, DL/VS to LHR is not completely out of the question either... especially if the CDG flight does well.


AA serves RDU, not BA.

When it comes to market strength (especially tech) IND has pretty much caught up for the most part. RDU May be a bit stronger but it’s not astronomically different like it used to be. Indiana and Indianapolis’ business climate and strength is stronger than what meets the eye as so much development has happened and is continuing to happen.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Correct, and AA/BA typo on my part. My point remains the same though, and that is I don’t think AA will be flying RDU-LHR a few years from now... so if I were IND... I wouldn’t say try and emulate RDU in that regard.

A better comparison would be PDX. A mid to larger market with some historical SkyTeam ties. And PDX has seen some LHR flights on DL/VS. So yes, I think IND-LHR is possible on DL. A good start would be to have CVG/IND share a LHR flight on DL( or less likely VS) that operates at 3x/4x weekly to each. The biggest hangup would be DL getting the LHR slot.
 
User avatar
zackary747
Posts: 583
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:41 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:33 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
It's about time!

https://www.indianapolisairport.com/abo ... dy-airport
"American and Southwest now offer new self-serve kiosks"


Image


Nice!! If you click the hyperlink on the very bottom there are 12 photos uploaded through Dropbox. I like the look of the Southwest machines. The lighting effect is pretty cool.
Indianapolis Airport Spotter

Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Instagram, Flickr
 
Bluegrass60
Posts: 274
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:15 am

Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:13 pm

zackary747 wrote:
kavok wrote:
Don’t sell yourself short. As far as the RDU comparison, IND is just as strong of a market. Frankly, I wouldn’t be surprised to see BA drop RDU in the coming years, even though it is a fast growing market.

The BA flight is a legacy leftover from the days when RDU was a hub. With the DL focus city and growing allegiance of corporate/FF to Delta in that market, I am not sure how long BA keeps the RDU flight if more profitable opportunities exist elsewhere.

If IND is really serious about getting a LHR flight, DL/VS to LHR is not completely out of the question either... especially if the CDG flight does well.


AA serves RDU, not BA.

When it comes to market strength (especially tech) IND has pretty much caught up for the most part. RDU May be a bit stronger but it’s not astronomically different like it used to be. Indiana and Indianapolis’ business climate and strength is stronger than what meets the eye as so much development has happened and is continuing to happen.

"Zachary - while IND has certainly had big gains in tech....it has nothing like RDU's RTP."

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos