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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:43 pm

https://www.indystar.com/story/opinion/ ... 941592002/

"Why should an airport look like an airport?" he says. "Why should you be made to feel uncomfortable? Why shouldn't we look and feel like a resort hotel?"

"The quest to always do better helps explains why a refresh of the terminal is under way. Padded lounge chairs, with electrical outlets, are replacing hard back seats at gates and other key spots inside Weir Cook. New carpet is going down in the concourses. Children's play areas have been added for families awaiting flights."

"Local favorite Cafe Patachou is expected to stay. Indy-based Harry & Izzy's may expand. They'll be joined, Rodriguez says, in a three-year cycle of closings, renovations and openings that will bring other Indiana and Indianapolis brands into the terminal for the first time"

"The next leg of that expansion likely will be flights to and from Mexico City. Rodriguez says demand from business travelers warrants the investment."

"Additional flights to Europe and the first to Asia may be added eventually if international investment increases here and Indiana businesses continue to grow abroad."

"Rodriguez says the state subsidy was essential for Delta Airlines to take a chance on the Indy-to-Paris connection, but he cautions that airlines won't risk adding flights unless there's evidence for sustained demand. So far, he says, Delta executives are pleased with the number of passengers boarding flights to and from Paris."

"Memphis International, where FedEx is based, was the second largest air cargo hub in the world last year, behind Hong Kong. Rodriguez says Indianapolis' airport has a chance to supplant Memphis as the nation's busiest air cargo hub in 10 to 15 years as FedEx continues to grow here."
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Jshank83
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:43 pm

I just still can't see IND-MEX happening with all the bigger cities cutting MEX at the moment. But I guess if they pony up enough money someone will fly it. Just seems like it will cost a lot, but they got money to burn. More power to them. I'll be curious to see who flies it an on what type of plane.
 
stlgph
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:11 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
I just still can't see IND-MEX happening with all the bigger cities cutting MEX at the moment. But I guess if they pony up enough money someone will fly it. Just seems like it will cost a lot, but they got money to burn. More power to them. I'll be curious to see who flies it an on what type of plane.


Not just that, but given that a number of jobs in the past say 20 years have moved to Mexico from Indiana, particularly the whole mess with Carrier just two years ago (and less), someone hasn't called up Mario and told him and the others to shut the F up about promoting something of this nature.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
kindeham
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:27 pm

Assuming IND-MEX is coming I suppose now is the time to start speculating on who. Since Aeromexico is a SkyTeam partner seems it would make most sense for either Aeromexico or Delta to operate the route. Could be used to help solidify Delta's position in Indy and since starting up a single-flight operation in a random city is expensive, I'd put my money on Delta jumping on it.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:20 pm

stlgph wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
I just still can't see IND-MEX happening with all the bigger cities cutting MEX at the moment. But I guess if they pony up enough money someone will fly it. Just seems like it will cost a lot, but they got money to burn. More power to them. I'll be curious to see who flies it an on what type of plane.


Not just that, but given that a number of jobs in the past say 20 years have moved to Mexico from Indiana, particularly the whole mess with Carrier just two years ago (and less), someone hasn't called up Mario and told him and the others to shut the F up about promoting something of this nature.


I haven't heard anyone voice their displeasure about it, especially considering the Governor has said its a good investment

kindeham wrote:
Assuming IND-MEX is coming I suppose now is the time to start speculating on who. Since Aeromexico is a SkyTeam partner seems it would make most sense for either Aeromexico or Delta to operate the route. Could be used to help solidify Delta's position in Indy and since starting up a single-flight operation in a random city is expensive, I'd put my money on Delta jumping on it.


I'd give IND-MEX a 95% chance of happening within the next year, I have never heard the airport talk about a proposed destination this much.

My gut tells me AM would start it, considering DL metal only serves some of its hubs from MEX (suprisingly MSP doesn't have service to MEX)

It would put the icing on the cake for DL serving IND though....

Jshank83 wrote:
I just still can't see IND-MEX happening with all the bigger cities cutting MEX at the moment. But I guess if they pony up enough money someone will fly it. Just seems like it will cost a lot, but they got money to burn. More power to them. I'll be curious to see who flies it an on what type of plane.


Some of the larger cities that were cut are longer distance than IND-MEX, for example BOS-MEX and PDX-MEX, plus B6's entrance on BOS-MEX probably scared AM away.

Assuming there is a relatively large business traveler segment flying the route as the article says, than it makes more sense to run the route over a more VFR based flight from a larger city.
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Jshank83
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:21 pm

flymco753 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
College football joke.


:D I'm a Boilermaker fan, so I enjoyed the game up in Ann Arbor on Saturday. Can't wait to see OSU lose next week though....
It was a dirty game but in the end, can't hold it over IND's head. In network planning, still have to be fair and yes, that includes Columbus. :lol: I cant get over the beef between SDF and BNA, IND and STL, DTW and ORD, CLT and ATL.


IND and STL have beef? I think there is way more STL-BNA arguing than with IND. Not sure why there would be any between IND and STL. SDF is apparently with everyone. haha
 
cvgComair
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:22 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
"Memphis International, where FedEx is based, was the second largest air cargo hub in the world last year, behind Hong Kong. Rodriguez says Indianapolis' airport has a chance to supplant Memphis as the nation's busiest air cargo hub in 10 to 15 years as FedEx continues to grow here."

Now that would be something...the main hubs of what will probably be the largest 4 cargo carriers in the world located within a 50 mile radius of each other.
 
Jshank83
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:28 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
I just still can't see IND-MEX happening with all the bigger cities cutting MEX at the moment. But I guess if they pony up enough money someone will fly it. Just seems like it will cost a lot, but they got money to burn. More power to them. I'll be curious to see who flies it an on what type of plane.


Some of the larger cities that were cut are longer distance than IND-MEX, for example BOS-MEX and PDX-MEX, plus B6's entrance on BOS-MEX probably scared AM away.

Assuming there is a relatively large business traveler segment flying the route as the article says, than it makes more sense to run the route over a more VFR based flight from a larger city.


WN cut all their MEX except HOU, a couple airlines cut LAX-MEX. AA just cut PHL-MEX. Most of those had connections to help fill it. IAD-MEX was cut by AM also. I have just been seeing a lot of cuts lately and not adds, so a midsized station add seems off to me.

I guess I would just like to see what the O&D demand on it is. Maybe IND has a lot higher O&D than I would expect. I would think you would have to have connections to help fill it. Aeromexico could run it on an RJ like they do with Austin, which would help though.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:37 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

:D I'm a Boilermaker fan, so I enjoyed the game up in Ann Arbor on Saturday. Can't wait to see OSU lose next week though....
It was a dirty game but in the end, can't hold it over IND's head. In network planning, still have to be fair and yes, that includes Columbus. :lol: I cant get over the beef between SDF and BNA, IND and STL, DTW and ORD, CLT and ATL.


IND and STL have beef? I think there is way more STL-BNA arguing than with IND. Not sure why there would be any between IND and STL. SDF is apparently with everyone. haha


I agree, IND gets along pretty well with STL, in fact I really enjoy my visits to STL

The real beefs are:

STL v. MCI
DTW v. MSP
KLM617 v. Delta
IAH v. DFW
SDF v. IND, BNA, and CVG

did I miss any? :lol:

cvgComair wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
"Memphis International, where FedEx is based, was the second largest air cargo hub in the world last year, behind Hong Kong. Rodriguez says Indianapolis' airport has a chance to supplant Memphis as the nation's busiest air cargo hub in 10 to 15 years as FedEx continues to grow here."

Now that would be something...the main hubs of what will probably be the largest 4 cargo carriers in the world located within a 50 mile radius of each other.


Haven't heard much about SDF's plans regarding growth from UPS, have you? With FedEx building a 3rd runway at IND, I can't imagine SDF will still be larger than CVG or IND 10-15 years down the line.

Jshank83 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
I just still can't see IND-MEX happening with all the bigger cities cutting MEX at the moment. But I guess if they pony up enough money someone will fly it. Just seems like it will cost a lot, but they got money to burn. More power to them. I'll be curious to see who flies it an on what type of plane.


Some of the larger cities that were cut are longer distance than IND-MEX, for example BOS-MEX and PDX-MEX, plus B6's entrance on BOS-MEX probably scared AM away.

Assuming there is a relatively large business traveler segment flying the route as the article says, than it makes more sense to run the route over a more VFR based flight from a larger city.


WN cut all their MEX except HOU, a couple airlines cut LAX-MEX. AA just cut PHL-MEX. Most of those had connections to help fill it. IAD-MEX was cut by AM also. I have just been seeing a lot of cuts lately and not adds, so a midsized station add seems off to me.

I guess I would just like to see what the O&D demand on it is. Maybe IND has a lot higher O&D than I would expect. I would think you would have to have connections to help fill it. Aeromexico could run it on an RJ like they do with Austin, which would help though.


I believe average year-round PDEW in 2016 was around 20 (probably sizably larger during summer), however onward connections through MEX would make the route more viable. Potentially even connections on the IND end as well, as DL wants to add more connections through IND.

On a 3-4x weekly schedule, or maybe summer seasonal I think it could work, especially with $$ behind it
Last edited by Midwestindy on Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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kindeham
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:45 pm

cvgComair wrote:
Now that would be something...the main hubs of what will probably be the largest 4 cargo carriers in the world located within a 50 mile radius of each other.


There is a reason for this. The geographical center of population in the United States is in southern Indiana. That is why there is such a cargo presence here. IND is the closest place to most the people, perhaps challenged by SDF.
 
kbmiflyer
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:51 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
https://www.indystar.com/story/opinion/columnists/tim-swarens/2018/11/19/swarens-why-leader-top-ranked-indianapolis-international-airport-isnt-satisfied/1941592002/

"Memphis International, where FedEx is based, was the second largest air cargo hub in the world last year, behind Hong Kong. Rodriguez says Indianapolis' airport has a chance to supplant Memphis as the nation's busiest air cargo hub in 10 to 15 years as FedEx continues to grow here."


This statement is just silly. FedEx may continue to grow in IND, but it is currently 8th in the US in cargo, and is 1/5th the size of Memphis. There is no way IND is going to be the largest Cargo airport in the US in 15 years.
 
Runway28L
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:05 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
The Amount of 50 seaters UA is sending through IND is quite amusing:
For March:
6xCR2-ORD
3xE145-EWR
2xE145/1xCR2-IAH
2xCR2/1xE145-IAD
They have two mainline flights and they are the IND-SFO turns

Compare that to AA and DL
For AA March:
4xE145-ORD
1xE140-LGA
1xE140-JFK
1xCR2-DCA
2xE145-MIA
However, AA runs 14 mainline flights

For March DL:
2xRDU
However, DL runs 19 mainline flights

UA for some reason usually downguages a lot of mid-sized markets during March. For comparison... March 2018 at PIT, UA was all-RJ to ORD along with IAH, EWR, and IAD. The only 3 mainline flights (2x daily DEN, 1x daily SFO) were downgraded to A319s.

I would expect capacity upgrades to return incrementally between April and June.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:11 pm

kbmiflyer wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
https://www.indystar.com/story/opinion/columnists/tim-swarens/2018/11/19/swarens-why-leader-top-ranked-indianapolis-international-airport-isnt-satisfied/1941592002/

"Memphis International, where FedEx is based, was the second largest air cargo hub in the world last year, behind Hong Kong. Rodriguez says Indianapolis' airport has a chance to supplant Memphis as the nation's busiest air cargo hub in 10 to 15 years as FedEx continues to grow here."


This statement is just silly. FedEx may continue to grow in IND, but it is currently 8th in the US in cargo, and is 1/5th the size of Memphis. There is no way IND is going to be the largest Cargo airport in the US in 15 years.


Not really, MEM is maxed out so the majority of all FX growth will come from IND moving forward. FX and likely the airport have known this for awhile now, it’s just now becoming apparent.
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indygs
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:20 pm

Midwestindy, is the 3rd runway you referenced the one on the other side of I-70? Last I'd heard that wasn't a part of FX's plans but perhaps I misread?
 
ATAIndy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:20 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
https://www.indystar.com/story/opinion/columnists/tim-swarens/2018/11/19/swarens-why-leader-top-ranked-indianapolis-international-airport-isnt-satisfied/1941592002/
"Additional flights to Europe and the first to Asia may be added eventually if international investment increases here and Indiana businesses continue to grow abroad."


Sounds like no new announcements for Europe or Asia for a while, which I think is probably fair and not surprising. CDG needs to mature some more and spit out some more route performance data first. Looks like all eggs are shifting to the MEX basket then.

kbmiflyer wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
https://www.indystar.com/story/opinion/columnists/tim-swarens/2018/11/19/swarens-why-leader-top-ranked-indianapolis-international-airport-isnt-satisfied/1941592002/

"Memphis International, where FedEx is based, was the second largest air cargo hub in the world last year, behind Hong Kong. Rodriguez says Indianapolis' airport has a chance to supplant Memphis as the nation's busiest air cargo hub in 10 to 15 years as FedEx continues to grow here."


This statement is just silly. FedEx may continue to grow in IND, but it is currently 8th in the US in cargo, and is 1/5th the size of Memphis. There is no way IND is going to be the largest Cargo airport in the US in 15 years.


Yeah I have to agree, that is some starry eyed dreaming right there. FedEx is going to grow significantly at IND over the next decade but it won't be Memphis level. I would be surprised to see the 3rd parallel started within the next ten years. I'll certainly eat my crow if I'm wrong, but that's what I'm seeing from my side of the table.
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kbmiflyer
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:20 pm

kindeham wrote:

There is a reason for this. The geographical center of population in the United States is in southern Indiana. That is why there is such a cargo presence here. IND is the closest place to most the people, perhaps challenged by SDF.


The geographical center of population was in southern Indiana 70 years ago. It is now in South Central Missouri, actually closer to MEM than anything.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_cent ... population
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:02 pm

indygs wrote:
Midwestindy, is the 3rd runway you referenced the one on the other side of I-70? Last I'd heard that wasn't a part of FX's plans but perhaps I misread?


Yes, and it is part of FX's plans long-term, work probably won't start on it until the mid 2020s I'm guessing.
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kindeham
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:40 pm

kbmiflyer wrote:
kindeham wrote:

There is a reason for this. The geographical center of population in the United States is in southern Indiana. That is why there is such a cargo presence here. IND is the closest place to most the people, perhaps challenged by SDF.


The geographical center of population was in southern Indiana 70 years ago. It is now in South Central Missouri, actually closer to MEM than anything.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_cent ... population


Median and mean are two different things.
The median center is in Indiana. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_center_of_United_States_population#/media/File%3AUSCenterPop_Median2010.png
 
Bluegrass60
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:21 pm

"the main hubs of what will probably be the largest 4 cargo carriers in the world located within a 50 mile radius of each other."

Not sure what you are referring to. 2017 rankings for Top 20 busiest cargo airport in the world:(US) #2 MEM. #5 ANC #7 SDF #13 LAX #14 MIA #20 ORD

Maybe IND and CVG rank in the 20-30 group? For scale...SDF handled @2.5x's the volume of IND or CVG

It would be correct to say that within a 500 mile radius of IND are 5 of the top 30 cargo airports in the world or the 3rd, 8th and 9th busiest in the US are withing 125 miles of each other.

SDF had 167,000 aircraft operations in 2017; IND had 162,000 and CVG had 150,000 (those are total operations airline, military, cargo, etc)

UPS growth at SDF has been with larger and larger aircraft (mostly 747). FEDEX at Indy and Amazon Prime/DHL at CVG have a long way to go to catch up to SDF and even longer to catch MEM (which handles @1.2M more metric tons than SDF)

Aside from the sort at IND what else does FEDEX have there? UPS has 25,000 employees in Louisville. Most are sort...but also includes 2500+ pilots; UPS logistics and UPS Airlines.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:58 pm

Bluegrass60 wrote:

UPS growth at SDF has been with larger and larger aircraft (mostly 747). FEDEX at Indy and Amazon Prime/DHL at CVG have a long way to go to catch up to SDF and even longer to catch MEM (which handles @1.2M more metric tons than SDF)

Aside from the sort at IND what else does FEDEX have there? UPS has 25,000 employees in Louisville. Most are sort...but also includes 2500+ pilots; UPS logistics and UPS Airlines.


You can't add larger and larger aircraft forever....

I haven't seen anything about how many employees are outside of the sort at IND, but that isn't really related to aviation.....
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Bluegrass60
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:30 am

Just curious. I mean if IND is to supplant MEM for sort....would think it would get other FX ops.

I dunno...Those 747-8 s carry @50% more than a 767. UPS will have 28 when all get delivered. Suspect many will get to SDF. They should keep SDF volumes growing nicely

Likely FX is shifting to ever larger aircraft as well. They currently do not fly 747s however.

Would think a 3rd parallel runway at IND is as useful as the 3rd at CVG or the one long planned at STL. Would think IND has plenty of capacity with it's current 3 runways.
 
Moosefire
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:51 am

Bluegrass60 wrote:
Just curious. I mean if IND is to supplant MEM for sort....would think it would get other FX ops.

I dunno...Those 747-8 s carry @50% more than a 767. UPS will have 28 when all get delivered. Suspect many will get to SDF. They should keep SDF volumes growing nicely

Likely FX is shifting to ever larger aircraft as well. They currently do not fly 747s however.

Would think a 3rd parallel runway at IND is as useful as the 3rd at CVG or the one long planned at STL. Would think IND has plenty of capacity with it's current 3 runways.


Indy has space reserved for a another runway, but has not committed to building it yet. I operate in and out of there a lot... it’s not that busy.
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:23 am

Moosefire wrote:
Bluegrass60 wrote:
Just curious. I mean if IND is to supplant MEM for sort....would think it would get other FX ops.

I dunno...Those 747-8 s carry @50% more than a 767. UPS will have 28 when all get delivered. Suspect many will get to SDF. They should keep SDF volumes growing nicely

Likely FX is shifting to ever larger aircraft as well. They currently do not fly 747s however.

Would think a 3rd parallel runway at IND is as useful as the 3rd at CVG or the one long planned at STL. Would think IND has plenty of capacity with it's current 3 runways.


Indy has space reserved for a another runway, but has not committed to building it yet. I operate in and out of there a lot... it’s not that busy.


Well yeah, the airport isn't going to commit to building something like that until it is absolutely necessary or FX demands it...

However, the airport has construction of a 3rd runway in their strategic plan sometime before 2040, and that was before FX announced its series of expansions.
https://www.indianapolisairport.com/abo ... pment-plan
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stlgph
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:39 am

Indianapolis right now absolutely does not need a third major runway.

However, that being said, the land is already owned, so they have that going for them, which is a plus, and often times, one of the major hurdles, and often time ends up being a major major part of the price tag.

And...

A third such major runway probably needs to be built in another 10 years or so because if that runway doesn't go in first, that whole area around the airport will be people bitching and moaning about jet noise pollution (despite, you know, moving next to a runway), and when/if there is a time of when it is desperately needed, those folks building up in the surrounding area will slow it down for at least 10, if not 20 years with lawsuits and petitions, etc.

If IND can play its cards right and get it paid for at a minimal cost to taxpayers, and not entirely screw the pooch on its current and future operators, I say go for it by 2030.
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Fargo
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:51 am

Midwestindy wrote:
The real beefs are:

STL v. MCI
DTW v. MSP
KLM617 v. Delta
IAH v. DFW
SDF v. IND, BNA, and CVG

did I miss any? :lol:


I’d throw in the ocassional ATL v. ORD as well
 
flyboy80
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:00 pm

Can anyone speculate, based on the DOT data, what markets are the largest "business" and "leisure" from IND? I would think somewhere, perhaps more than one, city in Florida would be most utilized for leisure travelers. I know an 'exact' explanation depends on an actual definition of "business" and "leisure" which I'm using generally.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:42 am

flyboy80 wrote:
Can anyone speculate, based on the DOT data, what markets are the largest "business" and "leisure" from IND? I would think somewhere, perhaps more than one, city in Florida would be most utilized for leisure travelers. I know an 'exact' explanation depends on an actual definition of "business" and "leisure" which I'm using generally.


Based on Q2 2018:

PDEW stands for Passengers Daily Each Way

Business:
NYC-795 PDEW (DL, AA, UA, WN ending in January)
DC-618 PDEW (AA, UA, WN)
SF-398 PDEW (UA, WN)
BOS-397 PDEW (DL, WN)
ATL-396 PDEW (DL, WN)
DAL-364 PDEW (AA, WN)
HOU-237 PDEW (UA, WN)
SEA-224 PDEW (AS, DL)
MSP-216 PDEW (DL)
PHL-213 PDEW (AA, F9?)
CLT-161 PDEW (AA)
CHI-144 PDEW (AA, UA, WN)
RDU-130 PDEW (DL)
MCI-128 PDEW (WN)
PDX-99 PDEW
DTW-70 PDEW (DL)
BDL-56 PDEW

Markets that are more in between business and leisure:
LA-499 PDEW (DL, AA, WN)
DEN-457 PDEW (UA, F9, WN)
MIA/FLL-384 PDEW (AA, DL, G4, WN)
SAN-183 PDEW (F9, WN)
AUS-155 PDEW (F9?, G4, WN)
SLC-93 PDEW (DL)
SAT-80 PDEW
SMF-64 PDEW
ORF-52 PDEW

Leisure:
MCO-645 PDEW (DL, WN, F9)
TPA-473 PDEW (WN)
LAS-452 PDEW (F9, WN, G4)
PHX-298 PDEW (AA, WN, G4)
RSW-226 PDEW (DL, WN, F9)
PGD-107 PDEW (G4)
MSY-99 PDEW (G4, WN)
JAX-78 PDEW (G4)
SFB-77 PDEW (G4)
CUN-76 PDEW (2016 year-round average) (Vacation Express, DL, WN)
CHS-54 PDEW (G4)
SRQ-51 PDEW (G4)

*Excludes destinations with less than 50 PDEW
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Bluegrass60
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:34 pm

Curious about PDEW. Example: IND-ATL 396 PDEW. There are 12 flights/day. That suggests 33 passengers/day per flight. All flights are 145 seats or more. How does DL or WN make any money? Am sure am missing something....
 
kindeham
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:44 pm

Bluegrass60 wrote:
Curious about PDEW. Example: IND-ATL 396 PDEW. There are 12 flights/day. That suggests 33 passengers/day per flight. All flights are 145 seats or more. How does DL or WN make any money? Am sure am missing something....


PDEW is only O&D passengers and doesn't take connecting passengers into consideration. Most of those 12 flights a day are filled with people making a connection in ATL and they aren't counted in those numbers.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:58 pm

Bluegrass60 wrote:
Curious about PDEW. Example: IND-ATL 396 PDEW. There are 12 flights/day. That suggests 33 passengers/day per flight. All flights are 145 seats or more. How does DL or WN make any money? Am sure am missing something....


There are only 12 flights at peak, most days are 10 flights, and weekends are less.

Based on Q2 for IND-ATL-XXX, an average of around 650 domestic passengers connected onward through ATL for DL. Assuming around 25-75 passengers are connecting int'l, and with DL having a majority of the market share, that comes out to be a LF in the lower 80%. Plus fares are $200 plus, so with a stage length that short, decent LFs, and average fares DL makes money on the route.

WN I have no idea about, they carry around 100 O&D pax, plus around 150-170 domestic connecting pax, however their LFs are not consistent so its hard to tell how they are doing. But their avg fares are somewhere around $150 for IND-ATL, and $180 for IND-ATL-XXX
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SumChristianus
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Nov 22, 2018 12:25 am

September numbers have come out from the airport: https://d1j6zi7czwjuok.cloudfront.net/i ... _FINAL.pdf
YOY Changes
G4 +57.4%
AS +38.4%
DL +14.8%
F9 +14.3%
AC +9.9%
WN +3.4%
UA +3.2%
AA +0.6%

Overall IND is up 7.7% YOY in September. Even if there is no growth for the rest of the year I'd expect IND at 9,100,000+ passengers for 2018. With growth I think we'll make 9.3 Million or more.
YTD DL/WN are 23%/31% respectively in market share but DL has caught up in September 28.5%/25% only 3.5 points behind while AA/UA stagnate.
UA DL LH NW AA --- Next IND-ATL-DEN: WN 73G/738
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:17 am

SumChristianus wrote:
September numbers have come out from the airport: https://d1j6zi7czwjuok.cloudfront.net/i ... _FINAL.pdf
YOY Changes
G4 +57.4%
AS +38.4%
DL +14.8%
F9 +14.3%
AC +9.9%
WN +3.4%
UA +3.2%
AA +0.6%

Overall IND is up 7.7% YOY in September. Even if there is no growth for the rest of the year I'd expect IND at 9,100,000+ passengers for 2018. With growth I think we'll make 9.3 Million or more.
YTD DL/WN are 23%/31% respectively in market share but DL has caught up in September 28.5%/25% only 3.5 points behind while AA/UA stagnate.


Good find.

Starting in October growth from AS will be negative due to the loss of SFO. F9 will begin to level out, as will UA and WN soon.

With the new carrier coming next year, growth will probably fall somewhere in the 2-3% range I think, assuming DL and G4 continue to grow. I wouldn't be surprised if DL adds some more to BOS, SEA, or RSW next year, and I think there is a chance that G4 may announce something in early January.

Speaking of DL, it looks like they will be getting some odd utilization out of their gates next year.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

There are multiple times in the day where they won't have a departure for an hour or more, but if you look around the time the CDG flight leaves, they have 7 departures in 20 minutes. To me it looks like they may be creating a sort of bank to feed the CDG flight, but it might be too early to tell. I have followed DL's IND schedule for a while and it has never been set up that way, I only noticed it when they updated their Summer Schedule a week ago. If it does end up becoming a mini-bank, maybe they might add a MCO/RSW/or maybe in the future an AUS flight to that evening bank to beef up connections. Anyway the schedule is subject to change before then, but I still thought it was interesting.
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Nov 22, 2018 7:16 am

Midwestindy wrote:

Thanks, hope you didn't mind me jumping out ahead of you on this - was so excited to find "new" information
Wish UA would bump back up to higher growth

I noticed something weird in the report about a ~3000% increase in charter passengers which didn't seem to make sense. Any ideas what that's about?

Also F9 surprisingly was up 15% which I assume was SAN, but I wonder how they'll fare next year, as DEN seems in continuous reduction for them.
UA DL LH NW AA --- Next IND-ATL-DEN: WN 73G/738
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:06 am

I wonder why Allegiant hasn't tried USVI like St Thomas? I would think they could use it as a test market for the Caribbean?

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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:03 pm

SumChristianus wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

Thanks, hope you didn't mind me jumping out ahead of you on this - was so excited to find "new" information
Wish UA would bump back up to higher growth

I noticed something weird in the report about a ~3000% increase in charter passengers which didn't seem to make sense. Any ideas what that's about?

Also F9 surprisingly was up 15% which I assume was SAN, but I wonder how they'll fare next year, as DEN seems in continuous reduction for them.


The charter thing is messed up because in January it said that there were 100,000 charter passengers. So, the numbers have been off since, I'm guessing that is why they no longer have the Jan-Jun numbers available.

With regards to F9 the IND-DEN flight is now listed as daily next summer(although they could cut back at the drop of a fly). Currently, they are scheduled to RON a plane at IND every night next summer. IND-MCO is 4x weekly(A320/A321), IND-LAS is 3x weekly, however I don't see AUS or SAN on the schedule yet, so both may be dropped or they just haven't loaded them yet.

Btw with regards to UA they aren't growing their outstations that much, UA at RDU grew 5.7% in September, UA at AUS grew 5.3% in September, UA at CMH grew 6.4%, UA at MSY grew around 5%, the only, the only mid-sized station I saw with sizable growth was MCI with 16% growth.
http://www.rdu.com/wp-content/uploads/2 ... h-CYTD.pdf
http://www.austintexas.gov/news/septemb ... -bergstrom
https://flycolumbus.com/storage/product ... lumbus.pdf
http://www.flymsy.com/Files/Press/September2018.pdf
https://www.flykci.com/media/7722/stats ... tember.pdf

Although I have yet to find a mid-sized station with greater DL growth than IND in September

ibthebigd wrote:
I wonder why Allegiant hasn't tried USVI like St Thomas? I would think they could use it as a test market for the Caribbean?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


It's risky, they are piloting SJU right now, so if the SJU flights go well I think they may speed up the start of int'l flights. USVI may be too much of a niche market for them though, it is technically a domestic flight so it would make sense, but even with stimulation it might be difficult to fill those planes. My theory is they may try to get int'l ops running, and the first markets they will likely target will be PUJ, MBJ, CUN, PVR, and SJD.
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:08 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Speaking of DL, it looks like they will be getting some odd utilization out of their gates next year.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0


Could they be creating scheduling windows to add new flights?
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:18 pm

Not really thinking people are going to be flying JFK to IND just to connect to a flight to CDG, but I guess that's just me.
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:13 pm

Indy wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Speaking of DL, it looks like they will be getting some odd utilization out of their gates next year.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0


Could they be creating scheduling windows to add new flights?


Maybe, but that would be a lot of new flights

stlgph wrote:
Not really thinking people are going to be flying JFK to IND just to connect to a flight to CDG, but I guess that's just me.


I agree, but the fact that all those flights are timed together is the interesting part
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:17 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Indy wrote:
Could they be creating scheduling windows to add new flights?


Maybe, but that would be a lot of new flights


Given the gate space issues at IND, DL may have been told to use the space or lose it. That kind of scheduling doesn't make it look like DL will be using fewer gates. It wouldn't surprise me to see DL making better use of the space. Especially with the new jets they are getting. While I don't think they would add more frequencies to MSP, DTW and ATL, they could be adding frequencies to other locations. Maybe add a flight to RDU, SLC, LAX and SEA. They could also add 2x to BDL and maybe 2x or 3x to AUS. There is also SAN and PDX needing 1x service each. That could be 10-11 new flights right there. What about expanding Florida a little bit? Between TPA, MCO and FLL, you should be able to add a total of 3 more daily departures (1x each). In total they could add 13-14 more flights a day without putting a strain on any market. You could split those flights up between those three 1+ hour windows.

Didn't Mario talk about IND becoming a connecting point? This would certainly help. It would also help feed MEX if DL is the one to add the service. Or even Asia if/when that happens. Even without MEX or Asia, this would allow DL to justify the use of those gates.
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:31 pm

Indy wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Indy wrote:
Could they be creating scheduling windows to add new flights?


Maybe, but that would be a lot of new flights


Given the gate space issues at IND, DL may have been told to use the space or lose it. That kind of scheduling doesn't make it look like DL will be using fewer gates. It wouldn't surprise me to see DL making better use of the space. Especially with the new jets they are getting. While I don't think they would add more frequencies to MSP, DTW and ATL, they could be adding frequencies to other locations. Maybe add a flight to RDU, SLC, LAX and SEA. They could also add 2x to BDL and maybe 2x or 3x to AUS. There is also SAN and PDX needing 1x service each. That could be 10-11 new flights right there. What about expanding Florida a little bit? Between TPA, MCO and FLL, you should be able to add a total of 3 more daily departures (1x each). In total they could add 13-14 more flights a day without putting a strain on any market. You could split those flights up between those three 1+ hour windows.

Didn't Mario talk about IND becoming a connecting point? This would certainly help. It would also help feed MEX if DL is the one to add the service. Or even Asia if/when that happens. Even without MEX or Asia, this would allow DL to justify the use of those gates.


I don’t think they’ll add PDX or SAN anytime soon. I could see this though

1xAUS
1xBDL
1xRSW
1xMIA/FLL
+1 MCO
+1 BOS
+1 SLC or LAX
1xTPA
3xBWI
4xweekly MEX
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GSOtoIND
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:54 am

Midwestindy wrote:
Speaking of DL, it looks like they will be getting some odd utilization out of their gates next year.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

There are multiple times in the day where they won't have a departure for an hour or more, but if you look around the time the CDG flight leaves, they have 7 departures in 20 minutes. To me it looks like they may be creating a sort of bank to feed the CDG flight, but it might be too early to tell. I have followed DL's IND schedule for a while and it has never been set up that way, I only noticed it when they updated their Summer Schedule a week ago. If it does end up becoming a mini-bank, maybe they might add a MCO/RSW/or maybe in the future an AUS flight to that evening bank to beef up connections. Anyway the schedule is subject to change before then, but I still thought it was interesting.


Based on your spreadsheet, it looks like there's more Delta isn't telling us. Your data inspired me to look at what is bookable on the website. Looking at Monday, June 24th (and looking at the previous Sunday for arriving flights), SkyWest has 2 inbound CR7s from RDU and 1 inbound CR9 from DTW. The outbound schedule has one CR2 and one CR7 to RDU. Republic also has an additional outbound 175 to DTW that is not accounted for when looking at inbound flights. That would suggest the RJ operators are building their schedules around flights that don't yet exist. How much advance notice does Delta usually give when announcing new service? I would expect an announcement reasonably soon.
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:29 pm

GSOtoIND wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Speaking of DL, it looks like they will be getting some odd utilization out of their gates next year.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

There are multiple times in the day where they won't have a departure for an hour or more, but if you look around the time the CDG flight leaves, they have 7 departures in 20 minutes. To me it looks like they may be creating a sort of bank to feed the CDG flight, but it might be too early to tell. I have followed DL's IND schedule for a while and it has never been set up that way, I only noticed it when they updated their Summer Schedule a week ago. If it does end up becoming a mini-bank, maybe they might add a MCO/RSW/or maybe in the future an AUS flight to that evening bank to beef up connections. Anyway the schedule is subject to change before then, but I still thought it was interesting.


Based on your spreadsheet, it looks like there's more Delta isn't telling us. Your data inspired me to look at what is bookable on the website. Looking at Monday, June 24th (and looking at the previous Sunday for arriving flights), SkyWest has 2 inbound CR7s from RDU and 1 inbound CR9 from DTW. The outbound schedule has one CR2 and one CR7 to RDU. Republic also has an additional outbound 175 to DTW that is not accounted for when looking at inbound flights. That would suggest the RJ operators are building their schedules around flights that don't yet exist. How much advance notice does Delta usually give when announcing new service? I would expect an announcement reasonably soon.

This is because the schedule isn't complete. There have been countless times the CVG schedule doesn't match up because they haven't finalized what aircraft is going where. All it means is that they will connect the dots in the future, it doesn't mean future flights are imminent. Also, remember that a/c don't go in a perfect schedule, a CRJ-900 flying RDU-IND probably isn't going back to RDU, but probably cycling through another station.

DL gives as little as 4 months notice, especially for RJ routes, so they still have time for new routes next year. DL didn't load CVG's new routes for 2018 until January.
 
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:34 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Indy wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Speaking of DL, it looks like they will be getting some odd utilization out of their gates next year.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0


Could they be creating scheduling windows to add new flights?


Maybe, but that would be a lot of new flights

stlgph wrote:
Not really thinking people are going to be flying JFK to IND just to connect to a flight to CDG, but I guess that's just me.


I agree, but the fact that all those flights are timed together is the interesting part


Dont forget it is 6pm at night, a preferred travel time for the day.

That being said, it *IS* possible to book some cities, say LGA to CDG, and connect in IND. Given that it is $850, the same price to fly nonstop from JFK, or to fly LGA/BOS/CDG, I'm guessing a few things
-- Not many people are voluntarily taking advantage of it because we are not seeing a Turkish Airline style of discount (a la, fly to IST to get to LHR but it only costs you $500 sort of thing)
-- It exists in the system for reservation agents to provide re-bookings in the event of IRROPS and other delays problems
-- The every so often idiot with ties to both NYC and IND (like, me) would book it just to say he took the IND/CDG flight
-- The every so often idiot who isnt paying attention on Expedia and just clicks away and books himself/herself on the flight - that'd be fun to see their reaction on that travel day


I'm not a DL FF but would there any advantage for frequent flyers to take/make IND on their travel plans to keep, reach, maintain some type of status?
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:08 pm

stlgph wrote:

Dont forget it is 6pm at night, a preferred travel time for the day.


Completely agree with you there, however, the times were changed on a lot of the flights to leave together. For example, the evening IND-BOS almost always leaves at 5pm, but starting soon they are pushing it back to leave at around 6pm. The LGA flight usually left at around 7pm, and now has been moved to 6pm. Maybe, they are trying to get more optimal times for flyers, but to time 7 or so flights to depart at basically the same time doesn't seem like a coincidence.

Again, the schedule can be changed a lot up until then, but given the schedule was changed this way a week or so ago is interesting

stlgph wrote:
That being said, it *IS* possible to book some cities, say LGA to CDG, and connect in IND. Given that it is $850, the same price to fly nonstop from JFK, or to fly LGA/BOS/CDG, I'm guessing a few things
-- Not many people are voluntarily taking advantage of it because we are not seeing a Turkish Airline style of discount (a la, fly to IST to get to LHR but it only costs you $500 sort of thing)
-- It exists in the system for reservation agents to provide re-bookings in the event of IRROPS and other delays problems
-- The every so often idiot with ties to both NYC and IND (like, me) would book it just to say he took the IND/CDG flight
-- The every so often idiot who isnt paying attention on Expedia and just clicks away and books himself/herself on the flight - that'd be fun to see their reaction on that travel day

Yeah, I would guess maybe 1 or 2 people MAX a day would make that connection, ahahah, but maybe more flights could be added around that time to allow for more logical connections. CDG-IND-RDU or CDG-IND-SEA make sense already, but a AUS-IND-CDG routing sounds like an ideal connection.
stlgph wrote:
I'm not a DL FF but would there any advantage for frequent flyers to take/make IND on their travel plans to keep, reach, maintain some type of status?


Possibly a LGA-IND-CDG routing would earn more MQMs than a JFK-CDG routing, as long as it was booked in the same fare class. Or if you need X number of MQS, a LGA-IND-CDG routing would earn more MQS than a nonstop flight.
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:13 pm

Indy wrote:
Didn't Mario talk about IND becoming a connecting point? This would certainly help. It would also help feed MEX if DL is the one to add the service. Or even Asia if/when that happens. Even without MEX or Asia, this would allow DL to justify the use of those gates.


AM is a codeshare partner of DL, and DL already does offer connections from DL flights onto AM flights to MEX at U.S. airports that aren't DL hubs such as DFW, IAH, and AUS. DL would still be able to offer connections from DL flights onto AM flights at IND (and vice versa) if AM adds IND-MEX nonstop service.

DL also already offers connections onto KE's ORD-ICN nonstop flights from DL hubs and focus cities in the Eastern U.S. (and vice versa), even though DL doesn't have a hub at ORD.
 
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:24 pm

I remember we all contemplated that the new IND-CDG service would hurt DTW-CDG or IND-CDG, when in all reality it actually boosted it. Comes to show the industry is full of surprises.

A pivotal market for DL to get into could be IND-MSY on a E175, with IND having a Republic base, and a potential through flight to LGA or elsewhere the 175 could fly, this route would have potential.

I see MSY being pivotal for DL in general with potential new RJ service to MCO and AUS as well.
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:43 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
stlgph wrote:

Dont forget it is 6pm at night, a preferred travel time for the day.


Completely agree with you there, however, the times were changed on a lot of the flights to leave together. For example, the evening IND-BOS almost always leaves at 5pm, but starting soon they are pushing it back to leave at around 6pm. The LGA flight usually left at around 7pm, and now has been moved to 6pm. Maybe, they are trying to get more optimal times for flyers, but to time 7 or so flights to depart at basically the same time doesn't seem like a coincidence.

Again, the schedule can be changed a lot up until then, but given the schedule was changed this way a week or so ago is interesting

stlgph wrote:
That being said, it *IS* possible to book some cities, say LGA to CDG, and connect in IND. Given that it is $850, the same price to fly nonstop from JFK, or to fly LGA/BOS/CDG, I'm guessing a few things
-- Not many people are voluntarily taking advantage of it because we are not seeing a Turkish Airline style of discount (a la, fly to IST to get to LHR but it only costs you $500 sort of thing)
-- It exists in the system for reservation agents to provide re-bookings in the event of IRROPS and other delays problems
-- The every so often idiot with ties to both NYC and IND (like, me) would book it just to say he took the IND/CDG flight
-- The every so often idiot who isnt paying attention on Expedia and just clicks away and books himself/herself on the flight - that'd be fun to see their reaction on that travel day

Yeah, I would guess maybe 1 or 2 people MAX a day would make that connection, ahahah, but maybe more flights could be added around that time to allow for more logical connections. CDG-IND-RDU or CDG-IND-SEA make sense already, but a AUS-IND-CDG routing sounds like an ideal connection.
stlgph wrote:
I'm not a DL FF but would there any advantage for frequent flyers to take/make IND on their travel plans to keep, reach, maintain some type of status?


Possibly a LGA-IND-CDG routing would earn more MQMs than a JFK-CDG routing, as long as it was booked in the same fare class. Or if you need X number of MQS, a LGA-IND-CDG routing would earn more MQS than a nonstop flight.



Also, possible some people chasing an upgrade may book out of other cities into IND then to CDG, but that also really doesnt do much for boosting the performance of the route.

In the end, though, I would like to see IND/CDG supporting itself on its own with daily, or at least 5 weekly service, without worrying about too much help stateside. Would be nice to get to that point and take it from there.
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:20 pm

flymco753 wrote:
I remember we all contemplated that the new IND-CDG service would hurt DTW-CDG or IND-CDG, when in all reality it actually boosted it. Comes to show the industry is full of surprises.

A pivotal market for DL to get into could be IND-MSY on a E175, with IND having a Republic base, and a potential through flight to LGA or elsewhere the 175 could fly, this route would have potential.

I see MSY being pivotal for DL in general with potential new RJ service to MCO and AUS as well.


I'm still surprised that IND-DTW is unaffected so far, in fact there has even been an increase in seats some months

MSY is an oddball IMO, I think DL likes to send most of the MSY traffic through ATL, which limits potential new routes. I think that is part of the reason DL hasn't been running MSY-BOS daily. I'd think they would add daily service to SEA, BOS, CVG, RDU, e.t.c, before they add IND, MCO, or AUS.

A few interesting stations for DL could be PDX and SAN though, depending on how aggressive DL is there are a number of domestic holes they can fill from both markets that WN and AS have neglected. PDX-RDU/BNA/CVG come to mind.

stlgph wrote:
In the end, though, I would like to see IND/CDG supporting itself on its own with daily, or at least 5 weekly service, without worrying about too much help stateside. Would be nice to get to that point and take it from there.


I think in the end, the IND-CDG flight will support itself, at the very least with summer seasonal service. The loads on the CDG-IND leg have been great since July, so once they can get the same amount of butts on the IND-CDG leg the flight will be fine on its own.
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:50 pm

https://www.wishtv.com/news/local-news/ ... 1615121105

DL
IND-RSW added back next summer
RDU flight times are changing again, IND-RDU 630AM and 1PM departure, RDU-IND 1230PM and 10PM arrival starting in July
IND-MSP has one flight upguaged to a A319 starting in July, up from 5xB717
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Re: Indianapolis Aviation Thread - 2018

Sat Nov 24, 2018 8:18 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
I remember we all contemplated that the new IND-CDG service would hurt DTW-CDG or IND-CDG, when in all reality it actually boosted it. Comes to show the industry is full of surprises.

A pivotal market for DL to get into could be IND-MSY on a E175, with IND having a Republic base, and a potential through flight to LGA or elsewhere the 175 could fly, this route would have potential.

I see MSY being pivotal for DL in general with potential new RJ service to MCO and AUS as well.


I'm still surprised that IND-DTW is unaffected so far, in fact there has even been an increase in seats some months

MSY is an oddball IMO, I think DL likes to send most of the MSY traffic through ATL, which limits potential new routes. I think that is part of the reason DL hasn't been running MSY-BOS daily. I'd think they would add daily service to SEA, BOS, CVG, RDU, e.t.c, before they add IND, MCO, or AUS.



Part of the issue at MSY is that they decided to move several of the jetbridges from the old terminal to the new. That was supposed to start this month, but things have been in flux since the opening was pushed back to May 2019. I know at least one or two of DL's bridges are going to be moved, which means they'd be very tight on gates for a few months. Apart from that it would be very odd if we don't see some of those routes added in the next year or two. I could see SEA, BOS, CVG, RDU and IND, but probably not MCO or AUS, potentially MEX and CDG down the line. They have a large loyal following here and are putting in a big new lounge, but they'll lose ground if they don't offer more nonstop options.

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