CLEdiscussions wrote:

CLE In a millllion years would never get regular service with an A350 nor a 787, unless CLE sees a large economic boom

Quite the contrary. CLE is the perfect city-type for a 787. The Cleveland economy has many far reaching places with which it has demand--such as Abu Dhabi, China, Tokyo, for example. These places are beyond the reach of a 757 and the route likely could not fill an 777 or A340, but is the perfect example of what the 787 was designed for.

greenair727 wrote:

Quite the contrary. CLE is the perfect city-type for a 787. The Cleveland economy has many far reaching places with which it has demand--such as Abu Dhabi, China, Tokyo, for example. These places are beyond the reach of a 757 and the route likely could not fill an 777 or A340, but is the perfect example of what the 787 was designed for.

CLE is not going to land service to Abu Dhabi, China or Tokyo.

^Probably not this year or next, but in future years the possibility is not unreasonable. The city would see AMS and LHR first, but after that its possible. There's already sizable daily traffic between CLE and AUH, and AUH would come before DXB. In addition to many business operations, the Cleveland Clinic operates two hospitals in Abu Dhabi. With China, there are many CLE business ties, and it is rumored that a Chinese firm will buy the remaining aspects of Cleveland-based GE Lighting.

This NetJets flight today was from CLE to BKL. Was it just equipment repositioning or did someone fly that route?
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/EJA ... /KCLE/KBKL

greenair727 wrote:

^Probably not this year or next, but in future years the possibility is not unreasonable. The city would see AMS and LHR first, but after that its possible. There's already sizable daily traffic between CLE and AUH, and AUH would come before DXB. In addition to many business operations, the Cleveland Clinic operates two hospitals in Abu Dhabi. With China, there are many CLE business ties, and it is rumored that a Chinese firm will buy the remaining aspects of Cleveland-based GE Lighting.

Just out of curiousity do you have these sizable traffic numbers to AUH?

^No---but I personally met quite a few people that do that trip all the time--and most were not Cle clinic people. Since I personally bump into a tiny tiny fraction of the city's population, there's bound to be many many more that I don't bump into, and then extrapolate. If I had to guess, I'd say right now there's probably between 25 and 50 people per day per direction on CLE-AUH. USDOT may have actual numbers based on tickets, but keep in mind many pax are lost as some use DTW (or maybe YYZ) and some--like I have--have a split ticket that are on two different itineraries, such as CLE-JFK and JFK-AUH.

greenair727 wrote:

^No---but I personally met quite a few people that do that trip all the time--and most were not Cle clinic people. Since I personally bump into a tiny tiny fraction of the city's population, there's bound to be many many more that I don't bump into, and then extrapolate. If I had to guess, I'd say right now there's probably between 25 and 50 people per day per direction on CLE-AUH. USDOT may have actual numbers based on tickets, but keep in mind many pax are lost as some use DTW (or maybe YYZ) and some--like I have--have a split ticket that are on two different itineraries, such as CLE-JFK and JFK-AUH.

Oh okay, we just have a different definition of sizable. By sizable I was expecting you to say something like 150 or more based on the talk of you thinking they could get a flight in the future. I won't say it never will happen because never is a long time but I just can't imagine that flight happens anytime in the next 20 years. I think there are only nonstops to something like 4 cities in the USA from AUH. SFO doesn't even have one.

^"Sizable" is a relative term. In any event, see the discussion above. I didn't say CLE will get AUH out of the blue. Someone else had said 'never in a million years would cleveland get Abu Dhabi"--I was merely responding to that--that its not so far fetched as there are already relationships between the two in cities. Yes the numbers don't fill a plane right now, but In 10-15 years, who knows what the future will bring.

greenair727 wrote:

who knows what the future will bring.

Hopefully a new airport. Lol

chrisjake wrote:

quiet1 wrote:

My house was under the climb-out pattern for west-bound planes and I'd rush outdoors to see the UA 747 (UA953) and various DC-10s fly over. That sound of their engines is still music to my ears.

Ah yes, UAL953 was the morning departure to ORD and HNL. I lived on the other side of the airport and would catch its arrival the night before as UAL218 from LAS and ORD. Do you remember UAL576? 747 service to MIA was back then too.

Yes, UA595/UA576 were a 747 operating CLE-MIA-CLE. One season EA operated an L1011 DTW-CLE-MIA and return. UA also operated DC10's to/from TPA and to/from SFO. Those were the days! (My "Good Old Days.")

I had forgotten that the inbound 747 was LAS-ORD-CLE for a while. I remember it also operating ITO (or was it HNL?)-LAX-ORD-CLE as UA118.

Another mention of the "European mainland." From Crain's Cleveland:

"....Lee Thomas, the retired managing partner of the Cleveland office of Ernst & Young LLP and chair of the Air Service Demand Task Force of the Greater Cleveland Partnership, hinted in a telephone interview that direct service to an airport on the European mainland could be on the horizon.

"Even though we're not to the point where we could announce anything and we haven't closed any deal yet, I have a lot more confidence we could do that," Thomas said when asked whether nonstop service to the European mainland was in the offing...."

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/ ... provements

Reliant entirely on tea leaves and Nostradamus predictions it could be a carrier with Icelandic connections like Primera Air. The destinations would be London-Stansted and Paris-Charles de Gaulle. Once the 4,000 nm Airbus A321neo LR is introduced into the fleet it would make westbound CDG-CLE flights practical year-round.

This article is a puff piece by Crain’s. Not a single critical word about the facility, the parking situation, the shuttle situation, etc. I think that quote on international service reads like something a PR agency would write.

Don’t get me wrong I’m glad Kennedy is well received by the community, but come on Crains how about some critical thinking!

ncflyer wrote:

This article is a puff piece by Crain’s. Not a single critical word about the facility, the parking situation, the shuttle situation, etc.

The article is focused on route development. There is an accompanying editorial that raises exactly the points you mention.

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/ ... -ascending

masseybrown wrote:

ncflyer wrote:

This article is a puff piece by Crain’s. Not a single critical word about the facility, the parking situation, the shuttle situation, etc.

The article is focused on route development. There is an accompanying editorial that raises exactly the points you mention.

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/ ... -ascending

The article wasn't pure puff though as it cited what US and European cities the city still needs. The editorial piece though, nor the main article, really didn't touch on the lack of parking at the airport which is a big deal.

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ss ... ns_mo.html
Article that mentions master plan and concourse D.

I know several including Greenair comment on parking situation at Hopkins which is indeed problematic. I feel like I have to allow extra time to get to the airport, because it's always a crapshoot whether there will be reasonably priced on sight parking or I have to venture to Snow Road.

Well, NPR Marketplace had a very interesting story over the weekend about how paid parking business is declining due to ride sharing services, particularly at special events/sports arenas, and airports. They interviewed an industry expert who sighted some real data. CLE is in a bit of a pickle. When parking is as dire as it is at Hopkins, it can and does accelerate the trend towards ride sharing (and ditto for the location of the rental car facility). On the other hand, if they don't do something it will only accelerate the problem.

cledaybuck wrote:

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2018/03/reopening_cleveland_hopkins_mo.html
Article that mentions master plan and concourse D.

Ten years ago WN spent well over $100 million at BWI for 11-gate Concourse A. CLE's Concourse D for much less than that could be made into a quite decent 12 gate facility for somebody like Southwest, assuming they might decide to make CLE one of their 100-flights-a-day cities. Even a smaller (and cheaper) 60-flight operation, using only the west side of D would be a great addition and could add back a number of missing cities.

$4+ million and 3+ years for a master plan ... cough, sputter ... the consultants sure are raking it in.

masseybrown wrote:

cledaybuck wrote:

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2018/03/reopening_cleveland_hopkins_mo.html
Article that mentions master plan and concourse D.

Ten years ago WN spent well over $100 million at BWI for 11-gate Concourse A. CLE's Concourse D for much less than that could be made into a quite decent 12 gate facility for somebody like Southwest, assuming they might decide to make CLE one of their 100-flights-a-day cities. Even a smaller (and cheaper) 60-flight operation, using only the west side of D would be a great addition and could add back a number of missing cities.

$4+ million and 3+ years for a master plan ... cough, sputter ... the consultants sure are raking it in.

Great insight! Sounds great , just think of any airline decided come back and have a Midwest hub (B6,WN,NK etc) I think they would chose PIT or CVG over CLE, they have much better facilities that are to date with this century!

Robert1010 wrote:

masseybrown wrote:

cledaybuck wrote:

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2018/03/reopening_cleveland_hopkins_mo.html
Article that mentions master plan and concourse D.

Ten years ago WN spent well over $100 million at BWI for 11-gate Concourse A. CLE's Concourse D for much less than that could be made into a quite decent 12 gate facility for somebody like Southwest, assuming they might decide to make CLE one of their 100-flights-a-day cities. Even a smaller (and cheaper) 60-flight operation, using only the west side of D would be a great addition and could add back a number of missing cities.

$4+ million and 3+ years for a master plan ... cough, sputter ... the consultants sure are raking it in.

Great insight! Sounds great , just think of any airline decided come back and have a Midwest hub (B6,WN,NK etc) I think they would chose PIT or CVG over CLE, they have much better facilities that are to date with this century!

I agree that "D" could a nice little mini hub layout for an airline. Additional improvements could include a check-in and security area--and a street front connection so pax could enter from outside without touching "C" -- and keeping the tunnel to "C" open for connectivity for shopping/strolling, etc.. The street entrance would use the same roadway as the main Terminal. "D" could be "Terminal 2".

Regarding

just think of any airline decided come back and have a Midwest hub (B6,WN,NK etc) I think they would chose PIT or CVG over CLE, they have much better facilities that are to date with this century!

PIT or CVG may have better facilities, but CLE is the bigger and better city!

Robert1010 wrote:

masseybrown wrote:

cledaybuck wrote:

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2018/03/reopening_cleveland_hopkins_mo.html
Article that mentions master plan and concourse D.

Ten years ago WN spent well over $100 million at BWI for 11-gate Concourse A. CLE's Concourse D for much less than that could be made into a quite decent 12 gate facility for somebody like Southwest, assuming they might decide to make CLE one of their 100-flights-a-day cities. Even a smaller (and cheaper) 60-flight operation, using only the west side of D would be a great addition and could add back a number of missing cities.

$4+ million and 3+ years for a master plan ... cough, sputter ... the consultants sure are raking it in.

Great insight! Sounds great , just think of any airline decided come back and have a Midwest hub (B6,WN,NK etc) I think they would chose PIT or CVG over CLE, they have much better facilities that are to date with this century!

But they both have smaller metros in terms of population. And if you add Akron, then it even furthers the case for CLE.

Isn't the CLE metro also decreasing in size?

^No, it isn't. Population in the city proper has decreased, but not the region. Most of the loss from the central city has moved out to the suburbs; meanwhile, the metro economy has continued to grow.

greenair727 wrote:

^No, it isn't. Population in the city proper has decreased, but not the region. Most of the loss from the central city has moved out to the suburbs; meanwhile, the metro economy has continued to grow.

Even more so if the Akron-Canton area is also taken into account.

I believe though that the Cleveland Metro area itself is losing population. When I am in that area it appears that the Akron and Canton areas are moving closer to each other, and further apart from the Cleveland area. And the clients and the citizens I talk with are more Akron/Canton inclined than Cleveland oriented. Just my observation. Maybe Akron and Canton will be merged into one Metro in the 2020 census.

Cleveland CSA is at best stagnant to shrinking, in addition to spreading out. Granted wikipedia is wikipedia, but according to the current page listing population of primary statistical areas, Cleveland CSA has lost 0.5% from 2010 to 2014 (same with Pittsburgh). Furthermore Cleveland's ranking (16) is down from what it used to be, and cities just behind CLE CSA such as Denver, Orlando, and Portland are growing like a rocket. Within a generation CLE will be out of the top 20, and it's not completely out of the question that Columbus will be larger CSA in 30 years or so. Furthermore, whereas Ohio's per capita income used to meet or exceed the US average, it is now far behind, as are the % of population with people with bachelor degrees.

So as much as I'm a fanboy of Cleveland, if I ran an airline it would not be near the top of the list as far as attractive markets are concerned.

Maybe its because there is no such thing as Cleveland CSA. It is more like 3 or 4 Metro areas still evolving and maintaining their independence in Northeast Ohio, with I-77 developments joining Akron and Canton at a rapid pace, having CAK and the Pro Football HOF as the focal points.

marvinanderson1 wrote:

Maybe its because there is no such thing as Cleveland CSA.

The Census Bureau defines CSA's as MSA's which have an employment interchange of at least 15%. The Cleveland MSA has this with the Akron, Canton, Ashtabula, New Philadelphia, Sandusky, and Norwalk MSAs. The Cleveland CSA assuredly does exist. But you knew that, right?

No I did not know that, and still don't know that. Checked with the Census Bureau, and they don't know it either. There is such a thing as the Cleveland/Akron/Canton CSA , but no Cleveland CSA. Just the facts please. And while you are adding far away Sandusky, Norwalk , and no way New Philadelphia to Cleveland , you may as well add Marietta, and Portsmouth too, they are only 200 miles away. The truth is with Clevelands population going from a high of nearly a million to now less than 375,000 its influence have gone too. But feel good knowing that the Airport is growing again, but as one who travels this country Cleveland has nowhere the charm or it factor as Pittsburgh or Cincinnati.

marvinanderson1 wrote:

No I did not know that, and still don't know that. Checked with the Census Bureau, and they don't know it either. There is such a thing as the Cleveland/Akron/Canton CSA , but no Cleveland CSA. Just the facts please. And while you are adding far away Sandusky, Norwalk , and no way New Philadelphia to Cleveland , you may as well add Marietta, and Portsmouth too, they are only 200 miles away. The truth is with Clevelands population going from a high of nearly a million to now less than 375,000 its influence have gone too. But feel good knowing that the Airport is growing again, but as one who travels this country Cleveland has nowhere the charm or it factor as Pittsburgh or Cincinnati.

Norwalk & Sandusky are well within CLE's pull as an airport market (~60mi 45-60min drive), but I am sure they have traffic to DTW as well. There is a large difference between 200mi and 60mi when concerning market pull, but you knew that already.

I added up some Census figures regarding the is CLE shrinking question. I didn't look up all the counties in the CLE CSA, but just the larger or closets ones (Cuyahoga, Lake, Ashtabula, Lorain, Medina, Summit, Stark, Portage, and Geauga)---this doesn't include Youngstown, Trumbell, Sandusky, and others that are definitely part of Hopkins' market:

1990: 3,227,229
2010: 3,242,898

So, definitely not shrinking. The full market is closer to 5M population. Although the population may seem flat, the economy of the region has definitely been growing--and that's a larger driver of the air market than just population.

greenair, looking up the ranking of CSA areas, this comes up for 2010 vs 2016 estimates....an almost 1% loss
2016: 3,483,311
2010: 3,515,646

If you move closer into the MSA 2016 vs 2010 comparison, the loss is over 1%
2016: 2,055,612
2017: 2,077,240

You are cherry picking things and old data to get the result you want. Why is 1990 even a part of your equation?

AaronPGH wrote:

greenair, looking up the ranking of CSA areas, this comes up for 2010 vs 2016 estimates....an almost 1% loss
2016: 3,483,311
2010: 3,515,646

If you move closer into the MSA 2016 vs 2010 comparison, the loss is over 1%
2016: 2,055,612
2017: 2,077,240

You are cherry picking things and old data to get the result you want. Why is 1990 even a part of your equation?

Your MSA data shows a gain of 1%.

Either way, I'm sure we can get passed the argument, with a +/- 1% either way, the region is relatively flat. What we see at CLE is the return of cost sensitive passengers that went to PIT, CAK, etc. to get that cheaper flight. We also see a growth in the economy and lower unemployment so that positively affects air travel. Kennedy is the one we should pay attention to and he's predicting 10m pax soon and that's great for CLE. What we have to hope is that he uses that capital to pay down debt so the next large improvement project can be funded fully without any issues. It's been a long time since CLE has had a meaningful project due to the debt issues from the D terminal, Parking Garages, etc. of a decade ago. It seems like we have a credible leader and the support of the Greater Cleveland Partnership growth engine to land a TATL flight announcement this fall with a start date of 2019. I hope CLE can make that happen.

In the meantime, let's all enjoy $900 RT fares to LHR on FI. That's a real bargain for all of us CLE travelers. So, there has been some real positives in 2017 for CLE.

greenair727 wrote:

I added up some Census figures regarding the is CLE shrinking question. I didn't look up all the counties in the CLE CSA, but just the larger or closets ones (Cuyahoga, Lake, Ashtabula, Lorain, Medina, Summit, Stark, Portage, and Geauga)---this doesn't include Youngstown, Trumbell, Sandusky, and others that are definitely part of Hopkins' market:

1990: 3,227,229
2010: 3,242,898

So, definitely not shrinking. The full market is closer to 5M population. Although the population may seem flat, the economy of the region has definitely been growing--and that's a larger driver of the air market than just population.

According to another forum, the CLE MSA actually lost 600 jobs year-over-year from 2016-2017
However, according to the link I posted below the GDP of the Cleveland area is growing
https://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/region ... ro0917.pdf

Midwestindy wrote:

According to another forum, the CLE MSA actually lost 600 jobs year-over-year from 2016-2017
However, according to the link I posted below the GDP of the Cleveland area is growing
https://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/region ... ro0917.pdf

Consultants are funny...can anyone really tell what shade of blue NE Ohio is on that graph? Wouldn't 5 different colors be easier to read, but probably not as pretty. I'm more interested in the dark blue to the SE of CLE at 3-8%.

fun2fly wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

According to another forum, the CLE MSA actually lost 600 jobs year-over-year from 2016-2017
However, according to the link I posted below the GDP of the Cleveland area is growing
https://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/region ... ro0917.pdf

Consultants are funny...can anyone really tell what shade of blue NE Ohio is on that graph? Wouldn't 5 different colors be easier to read, but probably not as pretty. I'm more interested in the dark blue to the SE of CLE at 3-8%.

This is more helpful, I think I shared the wrong link
https://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/region ... ro0917.pdf

Midwestindy wrote:

fun2fly wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

According to another forum, the CLE MSA actually lost 600 jobs year-over-year from 2016-2017
However, according to the link I posted below the GDP of the Cleveland area is growing
https://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/region ... ro0917.pdf

Consultants are funny...can anyone really tell what shade of blue NE Ohio is on that graph? Wouldn't 5 different colors be easier to read, but probably not as pretty. I'm more interested in the dark blue to the SE of CLE at 3-8%.

This is more helpful, I think I shared the wrong link
https://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/region ... ro0917.pdf

Looks like the GDP of the Cleveland MSA (sorry, Cleveland-Elyria MSA) grew at almost exactly the same rate as the Cincinnati MSA and slightly higher than the Pittsburgh MSA from 2011-2016. What happened to the "it" factor?

fun2fly wrote:

AaronPGH wrote:

greenair, looking up the ranking of CSA areas, this comes up for 2010 vs 2016 estimates....an almost 1% loss
2016: 3,483,311
2010: 3,515,646

If you move closer into the MSA 2016 vs 2010 comparison, the loss is over 1%
2016: 2,055,612
2017: 2,077,240

You are cherry picking things and old data to get the result you want. Why is 1990 even a part of your equation?

Your MSA data shows a gain of 1%.

Sorry, typo. 2017 should have been 2010. Fixing.

^Cherrypicking data? I picked the LAST Census we had in the US---2010 and compared to it to 20 years earlier to present change, if any. If you want to throw in the estimates, CLE is probably HIGHER than it was in 2010----but estimates are just that---not official counts.

Regarding the economy--a larger driver of air traffic than just population--CLE continues to grow and has now surpassed pre-Great recession numbers:

Year---GDP ($B)---Increase from Previous Year
2004 175.0 2.3%
2005 175.8 0.5%
2006 175.0 -0.5%
2007 176.2 0.7%
2008 172.8 -2.0%
2009 160.9 -6.9%
2010 163.2 1.4%
2011 166.8 2.2%
2012 168.9 1.3%
2013 171.7 1.6%
2014 176.7 2.9%
2015 179.6 1.6%
2016 181.1 0.9%

The above data is not the full Cleveland region--they include only the MSAs of Cleveland, Akron, Canton, and Youngstown. Some parts of the Cleveland economy are NOT included here--for example, Huron, Ashland, Wayne, Ashtabula, and Erie counties are NOT included, yet are clearly part of the Cleveland air market.

So, from 2004 to 2016, 3.4% growth. I don’t have my financial calculator on me but that’s a CAGR of about 0.2% eyeballing it. Cleveland was hammered in Great Recession and recovery has been meager at best. What matters to businesses is not Cleveland’s growth in isolation, but Cleveland’s growth relative to alternative choices, and this is where CLE Underwhelms.

Not sure if your numbers are real or nominal (most likely real) but US real GDP growth during the same period was 17%. Population or GDP I’m afraid is not a pretty picture relative to the nation but I’m hopeful things will look up soon.

Here’s my source for US real GDP : https://www.thebalance.com/us-gdp-by-year-3305543

^Ooops -- i forgot to mention -- my numbers are NOT current dollar numbers---they are chained 2009 dollars--so one can readily compare one year to the next without adjusting for inflation---the actual numbers for 2016 in 2016 dollars is obviously much higher.

Completely unrelated to the topic at hand but the new inline bag system is still a steaming pile of you know what. SWA held originators this morning up to 55 minutes due to all the bags being sent to UA’s bag room.

ncflyer wrote:

What matters to businesses is not Cleveland’s growth in isolation, but Cleveland’s growth relative to alternative choices, and this is where CLE Underwhelms. Here’s my source for US real GDP : https://www.thebalance.com/us-gdp-by-year-3305543

Based on US Govt data from the BEA (bea.gov), CLE's growth post recesssion is almost IDENTICAL to that of NYC's or Chicago's and is only a little lower than US Metro Average.

Area -- % Change 2011-2016

United States (Metropolitan Portion) 10.9%

Cleveland MSA 7.5%
Akron, OH MSA 18.0%
Canton-Massillon, OH MSA 10.7%
Mansfield, OH MSA 2.7%
Youngstown-Warren-Boardman, OH-PA MSA -1.6%

Austin-Round Rock, TX MSA 34.7%
Chicago-Naperville-Elgin, IL-IN-WI MSA 7.4%
Cincinnati, OH-KY-IN MSA 7.1%
Detroit-Warren-Dearborn, MI MSA 9.8%
Los Angeles-Long Beach-Anaheim, CA MSA 16.4%
New York-Newark-Jersey City, NY-NJ-PA (MSA) 7.6%
Portland-Vancouver-Hillsboro, OR-WA MSA 2.2%
San Francisco-Oakland-Hayward, CA MSA 26.5%
Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, DC-VA-MD-WV MSA 3.8%

Source: www.bea.gov

^Note that if you include Akron and Canton into the Cleveland MSA--which would make it comparable to the "Chicago" and New York" MSA---which includes parts of Pennsylvania--Cleveland would be much higher than 7.5%.

EDIT: Just ran the numbers---the aggregate Cleveland-Akron-Canton GDP 2011-2016 increase was: 9.8%. (Source: bea.gov).

^anyway, the point of all this is: CLE is a stable giant population city (5M) with a strongly growing economy (10% in the last five years). It is a city that would be a good add for an airline and for an airline needing an eastern hub, like AS, would be an ideal location, given population, economy, labor costs, geography/weather, and location. In addition, it can support direct TATL routes such as AMS/CDG/LHR/FRA.

greenair727 wrote:

^anyway, the point of all this is: CLE is a stable giant population city (5M) with a strongly growing economy (10% in the last five years). It is a city that would be a good add for an airline and for an airline needing an eastern hub, like AS, would be an ideal location, given population, economy, labor costs, geography/weather, and location. In addition, it can support direct TATL routes such as AMS/CDG/LHR/FRA.

And the Browns are going to win the superbowl next year.

The point of all this is Cleveland is a city of 370,00, with a Metro population of 2 million and gradually declining. Continually repeating a falsehood of 5 million pop does not make it so. And now a Metro population smaller than Columbus, Cleveland should resign itself to trying to face the facts and rebuild from there. The Airport is progressing and start from there. And by the way name one giant population city of 5 million with an airport of only 9 million passengers, name one...

marvinanderson1 wrote:

The point of all this is Cleveland is a city of 370,00, with a Metro population of 2 million and gradually declining. Continually repeating a falsehood of 5 million pop does not make it so. And now a Metro population smaller than Columbus, Cleveland should resign itself to trying to face the facts and rebuild from there. The Airport is progressing and start from there. And by the way name one giant population city of 5 million with an airport of only 9 million passengers, name one...

Are you saying if you live in the Cleveland suburbs that are in Summit County--which is not part of the government's definition of the Cleveland MSA--you use PIT instead of CLE? The service area of airports is not confined to US-government based MSA boundaries. The reach of CLE Hopkins is 5 million before the next closest airport of DTW, PIT, or Columbus. Its not a falsehood. All the data is here: www.census.gov unless, of course, you think the Census Bureau is just making up numbers.

Without question cleveland serves the csa of 3 mm and change. Akron airport stinks and downtown Akron is so close to CLE. But 5mm? What are you adding to the csa that doesn’t have closer proximity to pit, cmh, dtw? Erie?????

I have always felt that CLE is surrounded by other markets In Every direction in a way that msp, stl, mCI, ind, RDU are not and this is a reason our airport Ranks a whopping 45. (Plus it’s easiky driveable to ny, dc, Chicago).

cuyahoga_county_no_3_nationall.html