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CLEguy
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:30 am

ncflyer wrote:
Ok it’s official we have a quorum. Fantastic.

CLEguy, mbm3, and me.

I’m going to suggest a couple of times by the end of the weekend. It’ll be a little awkward to coordinate times over a forum but I don’t know how else to do it. Normally I’d gather ideas for an agenda ahead of time, but that is tough too. I’d say meeting one is about intros and what this group should be about.

Obviously any others are welcome regardless of viewpoint about what if anything needs to be done about the airport.


Can't you send private messages via airliners.net? I just sent you a test message.
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:48 pm

ncflyer wrote:
Obviously any others are welcome regardless of viewpoint about what if anything needs to be done about the airport.


I would but it's a long drive. Good luck.
 
ncflyer
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:43 pm

Private messaging works, thank you CLEguy. I'm going to private message joeman, mbm3, CLEguy, and once we agree on a good time/place I'll post that for anyone else to see. Please check your inboxes, it looks like I can group message.
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:58 pm

CLE reported 4.67 million pax through June 30th, up 7.67% over the first half of 2017. It's the best number since 2009 and is on a pace to hit 9.6 million for the year, according to airport estimates. No breakout of international pax, unfortunately.

http://www.clevelandairport.com/cle-con ... ger-growth
 
fun2fly
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:37 pm

Parked at BKL today to go for a run by the lake. A few interesting observations:

1) A good # of cars just park right next to the terminal on the terminal roadway. No one towed. Looks illegal and looks like a security concern to me. One BKL worker sleeping in car.
2) Parking is either $6, free if you park in the terminal roadway or free if you park in Ultimate Air shuttle. Most people chose the free spots, even with the triathlon spectators / participants being guided into the $6 lot.
3) There were 8 full size camping tents (3-4 persons) setup on the grass at the west side of the terminal by the barge. Any idea when BKL opened up for camping? What are the rates?
4) No one inside. Coldest water in town still. Bathrooms are nicer, cleaner and larger than CLE. One of my favorite running stops.
5) The parking lot and paved pedestrian trail along fence/marginal all are in severe disrepair. Waiting for the outlet shopping mall to be built? Whatever happened to that proposal? 7 weeks till Browns tailgate.
6) Security gate for the restricted area that lead to the back of the terminal was open for over an hour when I was there. No idea why, but seemed odd that they'd put a super secure gate in, but leave it open the whole time.
 
greenair727
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:38 pm

Thanks for the report on BKL. I've always seen lots of cars parked on the roadway instead of in the lot. Its like no one cares--even the cops. It does demonstrate the lack of concern by the city and can lead to worse things. The open security gate is crazy.

And an additional security issue: a car crashed through the fence and onto a runway--I think last night--this article doesn't actually say when it happened:

https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/loc ... nt-airport
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:20 pm

^Things are fairly lax at my local GA airport, too. There is rarely anything big enough for TSA to care about at BKL - and when there is it's a charter with controlled access.
 
fun2fly
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:51 pm

masseybrown wrote:
^Things are fairly lax at my local GA airport, too. There is rarely anything big enough for TSA to care about at BKL - and when there is it's a charter with controlled access.


I haven't spent much time there since the Ultimate startup and thought things would be a bit different because of it being commercial flight ops.

I'm still intrigued why they had 8 tents setup for camp!
 
greenair727
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:58 pm

Another element which may or may not play a role. When Robert Kennedy became director of port control, he eliminated the full-time role of Commissioner of Burke Airport and that person has been re-assigned to Hopkins.
 
ncflyer
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:02 pm

heh heh as a Burke naysayer I have to wonder if the biggest source of revenue for the airport is in fact parking (do they own the lots across the street too?). Those lots do very, very well, for the Rock Hall, for walk-a-thons by the museums, for Browns games. . . .

fun2fly did you see any action where it counts on your run, on the runway?
 
ncflyer
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:14 pm

On another note I'm sure many of you saw on the PD website that Wow just announced it's $99 fare to KEF for late summer/fall. Of note, CLE/CVG/DFW/JFK haven't been extended past October. Other cities of similar size to CLE or new to WOW such as ORD, PIT, STL, and DTW look to be year round, though I didn't check the frequencies.

I don't recall a seasonal announcement when the route was first announced, but that could easily be my memory. WOW gives Icelandair a big leg up for frequent travelers.
 
fun2fly
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:54 pm

ncflyer wrote:
heh heh as a Burke naysayer I have to wonder if the biggest source of revenue for the airport is in fact parking (do they own the lots across the street too?). Those lots do very, very well, for the Rock Hall, for walk-a-thons by the museums, for Browns games. . . .

fun2fly did you see any action where it counts on your run, on the runway?


Two maneuvers: 1) I think it was a take of Ultimate. Similar sized plane if not. 2) CCF Helicopter. Not bad for an hour at BKL on a Sunday AM. :biggrin:
 
greenair727
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:55 pm

And speaking of Burke, the NTSB finished their investigation into the Dec 2016 crash into Lake Erie of the Cessna departing BKL:

Location: Cleveland, OH
Accident Number: CEN17FA072
Date & Time: 12/29/2016, 2257 EST
Registration: N614SB
Aircraft: CESSNA 525
Aircraft Damage: Destroyed
Defining Event: Loss of control in flight
Injuries: 6 Fatal
Flight Conducted Under: Part 91: General Aviation - Personal

Findings
Personnel issues:
Spatial disorientation - Pilot (Cause)
Alertness/Fatigue - Pilot (Factor)
Monitoring equip/instruments - Pilot (Factor)
Total experience w/ equipment - Pilot (Factor)

Full report is here: https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Repor ... L&IType=FA
 
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SRQKEF
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:48 am

ncflyer wrote:
On another note I'm sure many of you saw on the PD website that Wow just announced it's $99 fare to KEF for late summer/fall. Of note, CLE/CVG/DFW/JFK haven't been extended past October. Other cities of similar size to CLE or new to WOW such as ORD, PIT, STL, and DTW look to be year round, though I didn't check the frequencies.

I don't recall a seasonal announcement when the route was first announced, but that could easily be my memory. WOW gives Icelandair a big leg up for frequent travelers.


From what I've heard here in Iceland, CLE has been absolutely great for FI and might even get expanded, while WOW is really struggling there. No confirmed news though, just tidbits here and there.
Nothing compares to taking off in an empty 757 with full thrust!
 
ncflyer
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:03 pm

The first meeting of the airliners.net "What's going on in CLE" forum is set for August 13 (Monday) 7PM Panera Rockside Road Independence. We have four people including myself confirmed but all who are local are welcome, and the primary focus will be introductions and what a citizens committee could realistically accomplish as relates to improved airport/terminal.

To repeat, all are welcome, regardless of your perspective on the current state of the airport, whether a citizens group is a waste of time, etc.
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:10 pm

ncflyer wrote:
The first meeting of ...


Good luck with the effort. Revolutions began with less.
 
greenair727
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:14 pm

SRQKEF wrote:
ncflyer wrote:
On another note I'm sure many of you saw on the PD website that Wow just announced it's $99 fare to KEF for late summer/fall. Of note, CLE/CVG/DFW/JFK haven't been extended past October. Other cities of similar size to CLE or new to WOW such as ORD, PIT, STL, and DTW look to be year round, though I didn't check the frequencies.

I don't recall a seasonal announcement when the route was first announced, but that could easily be my memory. WOW gives Icelandair a big leg up for frequent travelers.


From what I've heard here in Iceland, CLE has been absolutely great for FI and might even get expanded, while WOW is really struggling there. No confirmed news though, just tidbits here and there.


Not sure if people in CLE consider this when deciding between WW and FI, but FI has made a greater commitment to CLE---5x/wk vs. 4x and year-round service vs. not saying if seasonal or year-round. I'm flying out later this year, i'm flying FI--I just prefer an airline that doesn't charge you to pick your seat or to have a carry-on. In the end, I did a price comparison, and FI ended up being about $5 more per ticket for my trip, so price-wise they were comparable. That said, I hope WW sticks around CLE year-round. But more than that, I hope FI goes daily as its a pain when a route isn't daily.
 
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mbm3
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:27 pm

ncflyer wrote:
On another note I'm sure many of you saw on the PD website that Wow just announced it's $99 fare to KEF for late summer/fall. Of note, CLE/CVG/DFW/JFK haven't been extended past October. Other cities of similar size to CLE or new to WOW such as ORD, PIT, STL, and DTW look to be year round, though I didn't check the frequencies.

I don't recall a seasonal announcement when the route was first announced, but that could easily be my memory. WOW gives Icelandair a big leg up for frequent travelers.


There is a catch. $99 to leave CLE but usually 2x-3x that price to return. It is great marketing, and arguably still a great price, but it still does not make me jump for joy.
Let Me Tell You, Landing A 772ER Is Harder Than It Looks!
 
ncflyer
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:07 pm

I noticed that catch---- very clever. I even looked at PIT, with the hope of having a long weekend in KEF. but it's the same pricing strategy everywhere. Big difference for me paying $400 for two people to Iceland vs. paying $600-$800 for the same. Saying that, it does look to me like the $99 fare been snapped up pretty well.

I think what helps FI, as mbm3's personal story makes clear is that CLE-- unlike PIT or CVG--- does not have a top tier competitor such as Delta to Europe. Therefore it's the most appealing way to get to Europe, especially if one wants to avoid JFK, EWR, IAD, ATL. . ..

But then WOW Is hurt because it doesn't have KEF or low fares to Europe to itself, unlike in PIT/DTW/CVG/STL.

I'll also say that CLE is not alone but the 12:30 AM departure really limits connecting opportunities, compared for instance to PIT's early evening departure.
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:31 pm

[url][/url]^ I'd love to know how FI's Saga Class loads are. Saga is approximately equal to domestic first class or international premium economy (the European version, not UA's couple inches of leg room). That would tell you how much corporate acceptance they're achieving.

FWIW, FI is showing some 752's on the CLE run in September. I only looked at a couple dates. We'll see if that holds.
 
fun2fly
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:08 pm

Well, I guess CLE didn't win the BA race? PIT now has 3x TATL carriers in DL, Condor, BA + Wow. Not a bad collection!
 
greenair727
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:18 pm

Wow....this is MAJOR failure for Cleveland---its a much larger market and economy than PIT and PIT already has other carriers to Europe. When Robert Kennedy came to power, he should have cleaned house of the incompetent air development staff he was given. Todd Payne has been there for 12 years and the Icelanders would have come on their own. That guy has got to go. Now its even harder for CLE to land BA/AA or DL. And those are the only two options we had as we know where UA stands. This is absolutely horrible, horrible news for Cleveland.
 
N766UA
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:36 pm

greenair727 wrote:
Wow....this is MAJOR failure for Cleveland---its a much larger market and economy than PIT and PIT already has other carriers to Europe. When Robert Kennedy came to power, he should have cleaned house of the incompetent air development staff he was given. Todd Payne has been there for 12 years and the Icelanders would have come on their own. That guy has got to go. Now its even harder for CLE to land BA/AA or DL. And those are the only two options we had as we know where UA stands. This is absolutely horrible, horrible news for Cleveland.


What are you talking about? Cleveland’s economy isn’t “much larger” than Pittsburgh’s. It’s smaller. In fact, Cleveland has the highest unemployment rate of any major city. Do you do any research or do you just sort of say things that come to your mind?
 
greenair727
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:53 pm

^Of course, Cleveland is bigger. Its been so for at least 100 years. From the US Bureau of Economic Analysis (bea.gov):

-Cleveland-Akron-Canton Metro Area: $183B GDP (2016)
-Pittsburgh $138B GDP (2016)

That puts CLE at 32% bigger than Pittsburgh. I didn't include any Youngstown numbers to be fair as those residents may be equally split between using CLE and PIT.
 
SgtBarone
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:08 pm

greenair727 wrote:
Wow....this is MAJOR failure for Cleveland---its a much larger market and economy than PIT and PIT already has other carriers to Europe. When Robert Kennedy came to power, he should have cleaned house of the incompetent air development staff he was given. Todd Payne has been there for 12 years and the Icelanders would have come on their own. That guy has got to go. Now its even harder for CLE to land BA/AA or DL. And those are the only two options we had as we know where UA stands. This is absolutely horrible, horrible news for Cleveland.


Calm down. How on earth is this a failure for Cleveland? Let’s show that we can support these Icelandic carriers and then we can worry about expanding TATL service, just as PIT has done.
AGP ATL BCN BNA BOS CLE CLT DCA DEN FLG FLL FRA IAD IAH JAX LAX LGB MAD MCI MDW MKE MUC PHX RDU RSW SEA SJU SLC SNA TPA
 
joeman
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:24 pm

I wonder how the earlier referenced and supposedly in the works additional TATL to the European mainland is doing
 
Jshank83
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:34 pm

greenair727 wrote:
Wow....this is MAJOR failure for Cleveland---its a much larger market and economy than PIT and PIT already has other carriers to Europe. When Robert Kennedy came to power, he should have cleaned house of the incompetent air development staff he was given. Todd Payne has been there for 12 years and the Icelanders would have come on their own. That guy has got to go. Now its even harder for CLE to land BA/AA or DL. And those are the only two options we had as we know where UA stands. This is absolutely horrible, horrible news for Cleveland.


Let's wait until TATL announcement season is over before we freak out too much. TATL routes for spring starts will probably be announced from now thru October. CLE might get something between now and then so let's see what happens. This was just one announcement, more will come.
 
plinth857
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:17 pm

I'm still thinking (though it's a longshot) that Lufthansa might add something since Star Alliance has a larger FF base in Cleveland as opposed to OneWorld airline BA.
 
jplatts
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:21 pm

WN actually carried more passengers out of CAK between November 2014 and October 2015 than it did out of CVG during its 1st year of operation at operation at CVG. WN carried 473,000 passengers out of CVG between June 2017 and April 2018 (which covers almost 11 months of WN service at CVG), whereas WN carried 722,000 passengers out of CAK between November 2014 and October 2015. WN also used to serve ATL, DEN, LGA, MCO, TPA, and DCA nonstop from CAK back in the November 2014 through October 2015 time period.

Does anyone know how well WN actually did on CAK-ATL, CAK-DEN, CAK-LGA, CAK-MCO, CAK-TPA, and CAK-DCA nonstop service in Q4 2014, Q1 2015, Q2 2015, and Q3 2015?

In my opinion, WN did make the right decision by pulling out of CAK and moving all of its Northeast Ohio operations over to CLE. The only reason why WN was serving both CLE and CAK in the Northeast Ohio region was because FL served CAK prior to the WN-FL merger and because WN entered CAK through the WN-FL merger.

If WN was actually doing well on CAK-LGA and CAK-DCA nonstop service, WN could add CLE-LGA and CLE-DCA nonstop service if it had enough slots at LGA and DCA to do so. However, WN is already using all of the slots that it has at LGA and DCA on other routes. WN also already has CLE to DC covered by its existing CLE-BWI nonstop service, so there is less need for WN to add CLE-DCA nonstop service.

WN could extend CLE-MCO nonstop service to daily nonstop service, and WN could add daily nonstop service to TPA from CLE.
 
kavok
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:21 pm

The biggest issue is that CLE has been, and really still is, a Star Alliance frequent flyer city. Even with the hub draw down, the business pax still have the most loyalty to (now) UA because of the years of business pax accumulating CO million miler status, and the fact that United still has a large domestic presence relative to the other airlines at CLE.

So unlike BNA and PIT, which are more AA type cities, or IND and CVG which are historically DL type cities, CLE is a UA type city (as painful as that is to say).

The problem is, only SkyTeam and OneWorld airlines seem to be interested in adding new TATL routes right now. Neither UA or LH seem to be willing to jump into these adds. But unfortunately for CLE, those are the carriers that need to make the add.

It won’t be DL or BA more than likely. If anything, I have always thought CLE should target Condor. And now might be the time to do so, with the PIT market possibly being over saturated with TATL capacity, maybe Condor would consider shifting its flight from PIT to CLE if the price was right.
 
steeler83
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:36 pm

Went onto Condor's website, and it doesn't look like PIT-FRA is bookable anymore for the rest of the season. Are they really going out full???
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
ncflyer
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:20 pm

If not mistaken it's been written here before and on other discussions that LH doesn't really have the aircraft to serve a smaller North American market. It also can't help that FRA is an over fly of LHR, CDG, AMS, BCN, MAD, LIS, etc. These are some large markets better served from KEF, LHR, AMS, CDG, DUB. Obviously FRA is a fantastic connecting hub, but for CLE to work all cylinders would have to firing.
 
ADrum23
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:20 pm

plinth857 wrote:
I'm still thinking (though it's a longshot) that Lufthansa might add something since Star Alliance has a larger FF base in Cleveland as opposed to OneWorld airline BA.


Very longshot. Unlike BA; LH, KL, AF, etc don't like to add mid-sized US markets on their own metal.
 
marvinanderson1
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:01 pm

I believe when Airlines look at the difference between Pittsburgh and Cleveland they are not measuring them by CMSA numbers. I believe they measure by Metro populations only, and Pittsburghs population and other metrics are much larger than Clevelands. I believe they see Akron/Canton as a separate Metro , and it is, with its own airport, and unique businesses. This is my opinion of why Pittsburgh is seen more advantageous for international travel.
 
greenair727
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:34 am

^The Akron MSA includes suburbs of Cleveland--not Akron. And even if they were Akron suburbs, it doesn't mean people won't drive 35 minutes to Hopkins Airport vs having to connect somewhere because they're flying out of CAK. Airlines--at least smart ones--do not look at MSA populations, but air catchment areas which more closely align with CMSA over MSA. In this case, PIT did a far better job convincing BA to operate there than did the useless air development chief at Hopkins that, once again, failed at his job. This time, significantly. Yes, PIT offered cash, but CLE could say why CLE is a better deal overall, but he's incompetent, so he can't. Ultimately, Robert Kennedy is responsible because he kept this guy who apparently was hired by Ricky Smith. I hope that Kennedy reads this thread so he can see that the PIT announcement today is truly unacceptable for the entire Cleveland market. If Jackson understood what the airport meant for the city, he would take actions and heads would roll, but he doesn't understand air travel or the airport, so likely, nothing will happen and Cleveland will decline further as Pittsburgh grows and prospers.
 
marvinanderson1
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:06 am

Yes but Cleveland MSA also includes suburbs of Akron, such as Wadsworth. Some of the Northern suburbs go both ways, so they are not full Cleveland suburbs.. Plus the CAK catchment area goes west to Wooster and all the way South to New Philadelphia. That's a huge area far from Cleveland. Plus Pittsburghs influence reaches all the way to Youngstown west , and Wheeling West Virginia south, a large area that Airlines can draw from, not to mention large swaths of Western P.A.
 
greenair727
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:14 am

^You just contradicted yourself. You are now saying airlines should use CSAs when before you were pushing MSAs. Bottom line: Metro Cleveland is larger than metro Pittsburgh and PIT already has DL and Condor to Europe (and wow). The fact that PIT got BA before CLE can be attributed to incompetent Cleveland leadership.
 
fun2fly
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:19 am

greenair727 wrote:
^The Akron MSA includes suburbs of Cleveland--not Akron. And even if they were Akron suburbs, it doesn't mean people won't drive 35 minutes to Hopkins Airport vs having to connect somewhere because they're flying out of CAK. Airlines--at least smart ones--do not look at MSA populations, but air catchment areas which more closely align with CMSA over MSA. In this case, PIT did a far better job convincing BA to operate there than did the useless air development chief at Hopkins that, once again, failed at his job. This time, significantly. Yes, PIT offered cash, but CLE could say why CLE is a better deal overall, but he's incompetent, so he can't. Ultimately, Robert Kennedy is responsible because he kept this guy who apparently was hired by Ricky Smith. I hope that Kennedy reads this thread so he can see that the PIT announcement today is truly unacceptable for the entire Cleveland market. If Jackson understood what the airport meant for the city, he would take actions and heads would roll, but he doesn't understand air travel or the airport, so likely, nothing will happen and Cleveland will decline further as Pittsburgh grows and prospers.


How many years behind PIT was CLE on the Iceland front? 1-2 years I think and then they landed two carriers. If Kennedy is true to his word "just waiting on them to have the right plane to connect CLE to a TATL market that has never been served from Ohio (IIRC)", then let's hold of judging until the end of the announcement season until Oct. I'd guess, the $37MM FIS improvement is a must after this year === no way to add another carrier to the mix in the same time frame with a 200 pax plane.

Regarding the comments about what measurements each airline looks at when determining market, there are many that they view internally and, I'm sure, hire McKinsey, or other large management consulting firm, to assist them with especially if they are foreign carriers and less familiar with the US.

Where PIT cleans CLE's clock is the 10 year (not exactly sure???) CDG service they have enjoyed vs. CLE. But that's with Mok and Smith. Let's see what Kennedy can do....he's got 60 days to deliver on his prediction.
 
ncflyer
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:20 am

Wadsworth is 40 minutes from CLE according to google maps. That’s less time than it commonly takes to get from downtown Chicago to O’Hare. No way is Wadsworth or most other places you mention not in CLE service area, especially since CAK is so puny.

Greenair on London BA there’s just no way CLE has AA FF base to attract them, so I don’t get upset at route development on that loss. I really do think cleveland is painted in to a corner as a Star alliance city, and also not a tourist city like BNA or MSY.

Where I mainly share your disappointment at route development is as relates to Southwest, no DAL or HOU and down to four MDW this winter?????
 
steeler83
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:55 am

CLE is somewhat in the same boat PIT was in some 10 years ago when it lost the US hub. At the time US was in the Star Alliance. The best chance PIT had at that time was LH PIT-FRA which LH emphatically said was unfeasible. After a while, they managed to entice DL and 4 to 5x weekly seasonal service to CDG.

I don't understand why people argue that your city's chances with this airline or that airline because of XYZ alliance. PIT probably has a stronger Skyteam following because of that CDG flight. They have an incentive to gain miles and use them on a long haul flight as such...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
Robert1010
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Thu Jul 26, 2018 3:34 am

You guys argue over CSA’s , MSA’s all you want ! I think PIT & CLE are probaby the 2 most similar markets out there , I know CLE CSA was around 3.4,3.5 million right around Denver , Seattle , Minneapolis, I’m sure PIT is right there too. Like someone said before, It came down to 1. Better history with US/AA and 2. A way better facility , or turns out BA doesn’t like to fly into 3rd world out dated airports !
 
marvinanderson1
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:09 am

No argument over CMSA or MSA , Pittsburghs prominence is real and evident. And it is deeper than history with US/AA or facility. Pittsburgh is a progressive city, that has a vision for what it wants to be, its tech scene is burgeoning, its civic organizations outstanding, downtown is very attractive, and I believe Airlines find this desirable. Pittsburgh on a much smaller scale reminds me of my home Chicago, cities that punch above their weight. They both have leadership that knows how to attract business, and this is the type of fliers Airlines covet. Business fliers..
 
HPAEAA
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:31 am

ncflyer wrote:
Ok it’s official we have a quorum. Fantastic.

CLEguy, mbm3, and me.

I’m going to suggest a couple of times by the end of the weekend. It’ll be a little awkward to coordinate times over a forum but I don’t know how else to do it. Normally I’d gather ideas for an agenda ahead of time, but that is tough too. I’d say meeting one is about intros and what this group should be about.

Obviously any others are welcome regardless of viewpoint about what if anything needs to be done about the airport.


I wish I was closer & could participate, if you guys start putting thing together would you let me know? I'd love to contribute remotely if possible & join when I'm in town.

I really would like to see something come out in the master plan, with the CPE coming down I would hope the airport could start embarking on a plan to atleast redevelop the terminal facilities. From a customer perspective, there are a lot of things that make it a pain to fly in and out (particularly if it involves customs, a ride share or a rental car) which could be remedied in the medium term, from a long term perspective I would think by starting on the A side, there are some terminal designs which could be built out in phases that would vastly increase the square footage of the facility & accessibility of even the further gates.
1.4mm and counting...
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:01 am

One problem with a potential CLE-LHR route is the Cleveland Clinic's new facility in London is a year behind schedule. It's now expected to open in 2021 instead of 2020, which means the traffic won't build in 2019 as was expected. I can't claim that was BA's deciding factor, but I bet it counted against CLE in 2019.
 
acentauri
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:50 am

Did CLE solicit BA for a LHR flight and offer the same, or better, $1.5M/Year Financial Incentive for 2 Years, like PIT, or was there not any interest by the airport authority/city, or ? Has UA ever been approached with a financial incentive for a LHR flight from CLE?
 
cvgComair
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:47 am

acentauri wrote:
Did CLE solicit BA for a LHR flight and offer the same, or better, $1.5M/Year Financial Incentive for 2 Years, like PIT, or was there not any interest by the airport authority/city, or ? Has UA ever been approached with a financial incentive for a LHR flight from CLE?

My guess is no, money talks. PIT has paid left and right for its intl flights: $800,000 for WOW, $500,000 for Condor, $560,000 for China Eastern (1x charter flight), and $1.46 million to Qatar Airways Cargo.

I would assume that CLE used up the bulk of its money set aside for incentives on WOW/Icelandair. Ver similarly, IND has publicly stated that they are settling with the CDG service for now before trying to attract more carriers. CLE probably doesn't want to pay the price that PIT has had to get additional service, especially if it risks cannibalizing their current service.
 
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flyPIT
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:03 pm

cvgComair wrote:
acentauri wrote:
Did CLE solicit BA for a LHR flight and offer the same, or better, $1.5M/Year Financial Incentive for 2 Years, like PIT, or was there not any interest by the airport authority/city, or ? Has UA ever been approached with a financial incentive for a LHR flight from CLE?

My guess is no, money talks. PIT has paid left and right for its intl flights: $800,000 for WOW, $500,000 for Condor, $560,000 for China Eastern (1x charter flight), and $1.46 million to Qatar Airways Cargo.


Of course CLE solicited BA.

Btw PIT paid far less than CLE did for KEF service, and got a steal of a deal on BA, as far as incentives. To me it seems the latest US markets BA added are just good markets for BA, as the incentives to lure them have not been outrageous. Perhaps, just perhaps BA views PIT as the better emerging market for London service.
FLYi
 
SgtBarone
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:22 pm

flyPIT wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
acentauri wrote:
Did CLE solicit BA for a LHR flight and offer the same, or better, $1.5M/Year Financial Incentive for 2 Years, like PIT, or was there not any interest by the airport authority/city, or ? Has UA ever been approached with a financial incentive for a LHR flight from CLE?

My guess is no, money talks. PIT has paid left and right for its intl flights: $800,000 for WOW, $500,000 for Condor, $560,000 for China Eastern (1x charter flight), and $1.46 million to Qatar Airways Cargo.


Of course CLE solicited BA.

Btw PIT paid far less than CLE did for KEF service, and got a steal of a deal on BA, as far as incentives. To me it seems the latest US markets BA added are just good markets for BA, as the incentives to lure them have not been outrageous. Perhaps, just perhaps BA views PIT as the better emerging market for London service.


CLE gave $1 million to both WOW and Icelandair where PIT gave $800,000 to WOW. That does not sound "far less" to me.
AGP ATL BCN BNA BOS CLE CLT DCA DEN FLG FLL FRA IAD IAH JAX LAX LGB MAD MCI MDW MKE MUC PHX RDU RSW SEA SJU SLC SNA TPA
 
cvgComair
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:29 pm

flyPIT wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
acentauri wrote:
Did CLE solicit BA for a LHR flight and offer the same, or better, $1.5M/Year Financial Incentive for 2 Years, like PIT, or was there not any interest by the airport authority/city, or ? Has UA ever been approached with a financial incentive for a LHR flight from CLE?

My guess is no, money talks. PIT has paid left and right for its intl flights: $800,000 for WOW, $500,000 for Condor, $560,000 for China Eastern (1x charter flight), and $1.46 million to Qatar Airways Cargo.

Of course CLE solicited BA.

Btw PIT paid far less than CLE did for KEF service, and got a steal of a deal on BA, as far as incentives. To me it seems the latest US markets BA added are just good markets for BA, as the incentives to lure them have not been outrageous. Perhaps, just perhaps BA views PIT as the better emerging market for London service.

I was referring to the amount of incentives offered, it should be assumed that all the mid-sized airports are actively courting BA. My point was more that CLE is not in a position to put up another $1-2 million for a BA incentive (IND is in the same boat). This is not helped by PIT's better FIS/terminal facilities and existing proof of TATL demand.

PIT has a leadership team with a strong long-term vision, that has positioned the airport to gain TATL, TPAC, and Middle East service when the opportunities come. CLE is the complete opposite and lacking the needed leadership. I highly doubt CLE has significantly less TATL demand than PIT, but rather, PIT has been able to market itself better.

I think the terminal facilities at PIT vs CLE are a very good representation of the different leadership styles at the two airports. PIT is investing in a new and modern terminal facility that will be on the same (or greater) level as facilities including IND/CVG/AUS/MSY/etc. In stark contrast, CLE is content with keeping its decades old terminal and inefficient FIS facility. I can't help but notice that airports such as IND/AUS/CVG/MSY/BNA that have new and modern terminals are the ones receiving the most new service. While the terminal facilities themselves are probably not deciding factors, I think it is a reflection of an airport's leadership.
 
plinth857
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Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Thu Jul 26, 2018 3:12 pm

cvgComair wrote:
I think the terminal facilities at PIT vs CLE are a very good representation of the different leadership styles at the two airports. PIT is investing in a new and modern terminal facility that will be on the same (or greater) level as facilities including IND/CVG/AUS/MSY/etc. In stark contrast, CLE is content with keeping its decades old terminal and inefficient FIS facility. I can't help but notice that airports such as IND/AUS/CVG/MSY/BNA that have new and modern terminals are the ones receiving the most new service. While the terminal facilities themselves are probably not deciding factors, I think it is a reflection of an airport's leadership.


This paragraph kind of sums it up in my opinion. At the end of the day, BA crunches numbers and makes a decision based on where the highest likelihood of profit lies. It's weird how personal some people make this!

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