Please continue your discussion and to post your updates here.

Link to previous thread:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1351523

Hello all! If you're new to this thread, welcome! This is the place to talk anything and everything CMH/LCK/CVG/DAY/TOL/CAK/YNG/PKB/HTS/LUK. CLE and other Midwest airports have their own threads, but we often cross over between other airports in these discussions when Ohio airports are related/involved. Happy New Year!

Here's what happened at CMH, LCK, and DAY in 2017:
CMH: F9 made changes, the year ends with CMH-DEN, MCO, seasonal LAS, RSW, and just-started TPA. OneJet announced and started CMH-MKE within a month with stated possibility of an operating base, NK announced a big launch out of the gate (see below), WN added seasonal HOU service and said they'd add LGA if they had slots.
LCK: G4 started VPS. Cargo service had big gains.
DAY: Lost WN (MDW, MCO, TPA), gained G4 (SFB, PIE, later PGD and MYR). G4 seems likely to add.

As for what we know for 2018 thus far:
CMH: AA's seasonal mainline to PHL returns, F9 adds CMH-AUS, NK goes big out of the gate, starting CMH-FLL, LAS, MCO, RSW, TPA 2/15, MYR and MSY to follow in March. WN's OAK flights return as expected and they launch CUN in April. DL will very briefly run CMH-LAS for CES.
LCK: G4 adds AUS.
DAY: DL is dropping DAY-LGA, which AA will still run.

If anybody has more predictions as we were doing at the end of the last thread, fire away- that was a great topic idea, brooklynchris13!

UA CVG-IAD will soon be 4 daily, that route keeps increasing!

Predictions/Hopes:

1. CMH gets TATL serive in 2018.
2. CMH and CLE both get more help for older people walking in their terminals (i.e. People Mover of some type.)
3. UA flies somewhere else than EWR/ORD/IAD/AUS from CMH.
4. CLE gets more parking spaces.

Cvgspotter15 wrote:

UA CVG-IAD will soon be 4 daily, that route keeps increasing!

That route has increased quite a bit, I wonder if UA is just route more connections through IAD from CVG or they are seeing PDEW growth. If it is the latter, I wonder if F9 is interested in trying IAD again. IMO it seems like a long shot due to extremely low fares, but I didn't think their daily CVG-LGA was going to work for the same reason.

cvgComair wrote:

That route has increased quite a bit, I wonder if UA is just route more connections through IAD from CVG or they are seeing PDEW growth. If it is the latter, I wonder if F9 is interested in trying IAD again. It seems like a long shot due to extremely low fares, but I didn't think their daily CVG-LGA was going to work for the same reason.

Frontier is also at DCA, but only with nonstop service to its DEN home base, but Frontier has beyond-perimeter slot exemptions that allow Frontier to do 3 daily nonstops in each direction between DEN and DCA. There will be a slot pair available at DCA after Sun Country pulls out of DCA on January 7th, and Frontier could add nonstop service to DCA from CVG if it acquires the slot pair currently used by Sun Country at DCA.

jplatts wrote:

cvgComair wrote:

That route has increased quite a bit, I wonder if UA is just route more connections through IAD from CVG or they are seeing PDEW growth. If it is the latter, I wonder if F9 is interested in trying IAD again. It seems like a long shot due to extremely low fares, but I didn't think their daily CVG-LGA was going to work for the same reason.

Frontier is also at DCA, but only with nonstop service to its DEN home base, but Frontier has beyond-perimeter slot exemptions that allow Frontier to do 3 daily nonstops in each direction between DEN and DCA. There will be a slot pair available at DCA after Sun Country pulls out of DCA on January 7th, and Frontier could add nonstop service to DCA from CVG if it acquires the slot pair currently used by Sun Country at DCA.

That would be absurd. CVG-DCA is already adequately served by DL and AA.

In terms of CVG-IAD, I think it's about UA routing more connections through IAD. Not many O/D passengers are using IAD over DCA.

WWads wrote:

jplatts wrote:

cvgComair wrote:

That route has increased quite a bit, I wonder if UA is just route more connections through IAD from CVG or they are seeing PDEW growth. If it is the latter, I wonder if F9 is interested in trying IAD again. It seems like a long shot due to extremely low fares, but I didn't think their daily CVG-LGA was going to work for the same reason.

Frontier is also at DCA, but only with nonstop service to its DEN home base, but Frontier has beyond-perimeter slot exemptions that allow Frontier to do 3 daily nonstops in each direction between DEN and DCA. There will be a slot pair available at DCA after Sun Country pulls out of DCA on January 7th, and Frontier could add nonstop service to DCA from CVG if it acquires the slot pair currently used by Sun Country at DCA.

That would be absurd. CVG-DCA is already adequately served by DL and AA.

In terms of CVG-IAD, I think it's about UA routing more connections through IAD. Not many O/D passengers are using IAD over DCA.

I highly doubt F9 would use such a highly valuable slot (if they even were to get it) for a route such as CVG-DCA. Sure they used one for CVG-LGA, but that is a much larger market. If F9 were to serve Washington DC, they could only reasonably do it through IAD (CVG-BWI is way to crowded). CVG-IAD was one of the early routes F9 served as part of a build-up of IAD, it was cut when F9 pulled out a bunch of routes. Just a thought I had now that they are increasing their presence in IAD again, but I agree the PDEW to IAD is pretty low and I would assume most of those pax would rather use DCA anyway. We will have to see how F9's connections go this summer, that would certainly help the case for the route.

Here is a summary of 2017 for LUK:
- UE added LUK-PDK
- UE cut 2nd daily on LUK-MMU/MDW

Looking forward to 2018:
- UE will cut LUK-PDK

---------------------------------------------

Here is a summary of 2017 for CVG:
- Amazon Air began operations, now serves CVG-CLT/ABE/BWI/RFD/SKF/IAH/DFW/MIA/TPA/ONT/SCK/SEA/PHX
- DHL added CVG-YEG/DOV/SAT/MHR/YWG/seasonal CDG/LHR, ended CVG-TUS/RNO
- AeroUnion added CVG-GDL/MEX/QRO
- Singapore Airlines added CVG-ANC/DFW/LAX
- Yangtze River Express added CVG-ANC/ORD
- American resumed mainline to CVG with CVG-DFW, cut CVG-MIA capacity by 50%
- Allegiant Air added CVG-LAX/RDU/PVD/DEN, temporarily suspended CVG-SJU
- Frontier added/resumed CVG-CUN/SAN/MSP/LGA/MIA, ended CVG-SFO/FLL/IAH
- Delta added CVG-DEN mainline + various capacity increases (~6% seats increase YOY)
- OneJet added CVG-PIT
- Southwest added CVG-BWI/MDW
- United Airlines added CVG-SFO, cut CVG-DEN mainline

Looking forward to 2018:
- Allegiant bases 5th A320 at CVG, upguagues almost all routes to A320/MD88 and increased frequency
- Delta begins CVG-AUS, SEA goes year-round + various capacity increases (~12% seats increase YOY)
- Frontier begins CVG-AUS/SAT/JAX/RDU/SJC
- Southwest begins seasonal CVG-PHX
- Vacation Express begins seasonal CVG-CZM/FPO
- WOW air begins CVG-KEF

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/ ... m-cvg.html

“The addition of Austin later in 2018 is the next evolution in our approach to serve the most popular destinations from CVG,” said Delta spokesman Morgan Durrant.

Food for thought....

Midwestindy wrote:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/01/02/delta-adds-new-nonstop-destination-from-cvg.html

“The addition of Austin later in 2018 is the next evolution in our approach to serve the most popular destinations from CVG,” said Delta spokesman Morgan Durrant.

Food for thought....

I wonder if AUS-CVG is more about growing AUS or CVG.

DeltaRules wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/01/02/delta-adds-new-nonstop-destination-from-cvg.html

“The addition of Austin later in 2018 is the next evolution in our approach to serve the most popular destinations from CVG,” said Delta spokesman Morgan Durrant.

Food for thought....

I wonder if AUS-CVG is more about growing AUS or CVG.

Less about one, more about both. Delta is exploiting positions of strength in two growing markets. Win-win-win for all three parties.

As far as other moves from DL this year, I see them converting SEA to year-round. Adds to MSY, PHX seem possible. Additional frequencies and/or up-gauging seem possible across most of the board.

DeltaRules wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/01/02/delta-adds-new-nonstop-destination-from-cvg.html

I wonder if AUS-CVG is more about growing AUS or CVG.

Probably both. If there is one thing I’ve learned reading these forums for years is that airlines very rarely blindly add routes or guess at what equipment to use. I think this add is DL figuring there is demand on this route on both ends that will allow them to make money. There might also be a realization that Cincinnati can support a level of service that is greater than the level to which DL cut after dehubbing (I personally don’t consider CVG to be a hub anymore, YMMV). I would not be surprised to see a few more select additions as DL tweaks its offerings. It won’t be a lot but a few. Hub or not, CVG is still an important part of Its system and there are plenty of locals and businesses that will continue to look to DL first for their travel needs.

What’s interesting is what is coming in the form of new carriers. If I had to hazard a guess, I would agree with some of the others that AS and B6 will finally add CVG to their systems with B6 being the stronger possibility of the two. BOS is a good route for DL but it’s also a route where B6 would compete. And much like WN to BWI and MDW, I think a good chunk of the people traveling that route would choose a B6 offering. I know that people also mention FLL when talking B6 but I think we’ll see a cautious entrance into the market ala WN whoever it might be.

jph7291 wrote:

Adds to MSY, PHX seem possible.

PHX is only 1570 miles from CVG, and PHX is within the range of E175 regional jets from CVG. DL even flies E175 regional jets on its SEA-MKE nonstop route, which is even longer than the CVG-PHX nonstop route, and the SEA-MKE nonstop route is 1695 miles long. Delta is not restricted to mainline jets on the CVG-PHX nonstop route if it plans on bringing back CVG-PHX nonstop service, and Delta does have the option of bringing back CVG-PHX nonstop service on Delta Connection E175 regional jets.

If DL decides to bring back CVG-PHX nonstop service, will DL do so on mainline aircraft, or will DL do so on Delta Connection E175 regional jets?

jplatts wrote:

jph7291 wrote:

Adds to MSY, PHX seem possible.

PHX is only 1570 miles from CVG, and PHX is within the range of E175 regional jets from CVG. DL even flies E175 regional jets on its SEA-MKE nonstop route, which is even longer than the CVG-PHX nonstop route, and the SEA-MKE nonstop route is 1695 miles long. Delta is not restricted to mainline jets on the CVG-PHX nonstop route if it plans on bringing back CVG-PHX nonstop service, and Delta does have the option of bringing back CVG-PHX nonstop service on Delta Connection E175 regional jets.

If DL decides to bring back CVG-PHX nonstop service, will DL do so on mainline aircraft, or will DL do so on Delta Connection E175 regional jets?

I really don't see an RJ. I don't think DL has enough slack in the current E175 fleet as it is, and the equipment would have to come from NYC.

The delay of the CS100 order was a tough break for DL at CVG. Once they enter service, I see PHX, PDX, and SAN all returning.

A bit off topic here, but I am wondering if anyone has any guesses why DL (or any other legacies) aren't competing with price on WW. I just booked my first WW journey from CVG and for a while no legacies came even close on price. I am not sure what it's like at other airports that have had service for a while (like PIT with all their ULCC competition), but it seems DL has been competing with F9 and G4 (and I think their recent AUS add and BWI frequency increase is further proof). I guess WW is just a completely different product (it's a bit different flying a ULCC for 6+ hours vs. 2-3), or once WW gets closer to starting some of the legacies may compete.

DeltaRules wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/01/02/delta-adds-new-nonstop-destination-from-cvg.html

“The addition of Austin later in 2018 is the next evolution in our approach to serve the most popular destinations from CVG,” said Delta spokesman Morgan Durrant.

Food for thought....

I wonder if AUS-CVG is more about growing AUS or CVG.

This is kind of interesting. I was playing around with some flight combos on Delta from AUS to random cities to the East of CVG and it looks like Delta is showing a CVG connection at the top of the search results in several instances. I searched for one way flights on June 11th. YYZ, LGA and DCA are timed with ~30-40 min connections in CVG and the lowest cost. BOS, EWR, PHL, BWI, CLT, BNA, ORD are all showing the lowest fare with a connection in CVG and about a 2 hour layover.

Surprised with the low cost on this flight and willingness to pick up some connecting passengers.

DeltaRules wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/01/02/delta-adds-new-nonstop-destination-from-cvg.html

“The addition of Austin later in 2018 is the next evolution in our approach to serve the most popular destinations from CVG,” said Delta spokesman Morgan Durrant.

Food for thought....

I wonder if AUS-CVG is more about growing AUS or CVG.

I think it is mostly because F9 is starting the route. In a way that is good because it shows DL still cares about CVG, a least a little bit.

topguncnod wrote:

This is kind of interesting. I was playing around with some flight combos on Delta from AUS to random cities to the East of CVG and it looks like Delta is showing a CVG connection at the top of the search results in several instances. I searched for one way flights on June 11th. YYZ, LGA and DCA are timed with ~30-40 min connections in CVG and the lowest cost. BOS, EWR, PHL, BWI, CLT, BNA, ORD are all showing the lowest fare with a connection in CVG and about a 2 hour layover.

Surprised with the low cost on this flight and willingness to pick up some connecting passengers.

Based on some data I have seen, it seems upwards of 15-20% of DL's CVG ops are connecting. There is an article that was published a week or two ago that gave the O&D pax number, I can't find it right now, though. Some of the recent additional frequencies have really helped connections.

I also find it interesting that DL has yet to issue an official press release on the growth at CVG. It gives me hope that there is more to come, earlier this year, there were multiple weeks of DL increases before an official announcement was made.

I would love to see DL add some of the cut frequencies back, I think it would really help loads on some routes, increasing connections and giving business pax more options (CVG-MEM was a great example why 1x/day in not sustainable). I think CVG-BNA/MKE could go back to 2x/day as LF's are recovering nicely, I also see CVG-RDU going back to 3x/day given the expansion there. DL just made RDU-EWR 4x/day, I could see DL adding a 4th daily on CVG-EWR as well. I think CVG-STL would benefit from having a morning departure as well.

I did notice CVG-XNA is moving to an evening departure once it goes back to a CRJ-200, as otherwise the plane would need to sit in XNA all day. This does not bode well for the route and I have a feeling they are only buying time with the schedule change. Using Flightaware.com, fares on the route routinely reach upwards of $600-800 one way, that could explain why the route has stayed with such low LF's, but I do question how long its going to stay with this revised schedule.

cvgComair wrote:

topguncnod wrote:

This is kind of interesting. I was playing around with some flight combos on Delta from AUS to random cities to the East of CVG and it looks like Delta is showing a CVG connection at the top of the search results in several instances. I searched for one way flights on June 11th. YYZ, LGA and DCA are timed with ~30-40 min connections in CVG and the lowest cost. BOS, EWR, PHL, BWI, CLT, BNA, ORD are all showing the lowest fare with a connection in CVG and about a 2 hour layover.

Surprised with the low cost on this flight and willingness to pick up some connecting passengers.

Based on some data I have seen, it seems upwards of 15-20% of DL's CVG ops are connecting. There is an article that was published a week or two ago that gave the O&D pax number, I can't find it right now, though. Some of the recent additional frequencies have really helped connections.

I also find it interesting that DL has yet to issue an official press release on the growth at CVG. It gives me hope that there is more to come, earlier this year, there were multiple weeks of DL increases before an official announcement was made.

I would love to see DL add some of the cut frequencies back, I think it would really help loads on some routes, increasing connections and giving business pax more options (CVG-MEM was a great example why 1x/day in not sustainable). I think CVG-BNA/MKE could go back to 2x/day as LF's are recovering nicely, I also see CVG-RDU going back to 3x/day given the expansion there. DL just made RDU-EWR 4x/day, I could see DL adding a 4th daily on CVG-EWR as well. I think CVG-STL/MCI would benefit from having a morning departure as well, I never understood just having a mid-day and evening departures.

I did notice CVG-XNA is moving to an evening departure??? That does not make a lot of sense and it doesn't look like there are any additional connection options as a result. Using Flightaware.com, fares on the route routinely reach upwards of $600-800 one way, that could explain why the route has stayed with such low LF's.

How is CVG-BNA doing now? It was in the 40% range not too long ago, I fear they may cut it. However, I'm convinced the reason it is so low is because it leaves too early in the morning from BNA, thus, not allowing for many connections. For example, I can't book BNA-CDG via CVG because the BNA flight leaves at 6:00 am and the CDG flight does not leave until evening. I wish they'd do something to rectify that so one doesn't have to connect in ATL or DET.

$600-800 on CVG-XNA? Wow, that's insane for a RJ operation. I wonder why they keep that route anyway, it must be a corporate contract or something.

BTW, when do you think we'll see an official announcement from either AA or CVG regarding AA's planned move to B and their supposed expansion?

ADrum23 wrote:

How is CVG-BNA doing now? It was in the 40% range not too long ago, I fear they may cut it. However, I'm convinced the reason it is so low is because it leaves too early in the morning from BNA, thus, not allowing for many connections. For example, I can't book BNA-CDG via CVG because the BNA flight leaves at 6:00 am and the CDG flight does not leave until evening. I wish they'd do something to rectify that so one doesn't have to connect in ATL or DET.

BTW, when do you think we'll see an official announcement from either AA or CVG regarding AA's planned move to B and their supposed expansion?

The LF's were 62% for September, which is getting much better. I think better timing and 2x/day frequency service would help push the LF's up higher.

I would assume fairly soon, I do find it odd that we have not heard anything about the move. I personally would not expect any expansion, looking at the AA schedule, they are going to be down seats this April, certainly not a good sign for any adds. I think CVG just messed up the numbers. However, DL's pax numbers are certainly going to have quite the jump for 2018 and cause more concession demand. There is about a 12% increase in seats YOY for DL in the summer, that's quite a bit of extra pax.

Does anyone know what the load factors were like on the Southwest HOU-CMH nonstop service? If Southwest did well on the HOU-CMH seasonal nonstop service, Southwest could extend HOU-CMH nonstop service to year-round. CMH is also one of the top destinations traveled to from HOU that doesn't have year-round nonstop service to HOU (but UA does have year-round nonstop service to IAH from CMH).

jplatts wrote:

Does anyone know what the load factors were like on the Southwest HOU-CMH nonstop service? If Southwest did well on the HOU-CMH seasonal nonstop service, Southwest could extend HOU-CMH nonstop service to year-round. CMH is also one of the top destinations traveled to from HOU that doesn't have year-round nonstop service to HOU (but UA does have year-round nonstop service to IAH from CMH).

The DOT data is not yet out for Nov, about another 2 months until that is out. As for WN, I feel like the fleet constraints were most of the reason for CMH-HOU being seasonal. As they start to take more aircraft, I am sure the route will be back on a year round basis.

ADrum23 wrote:

cvgComair wrote:

topguncnod wrote:

This is kind of interesting. I was playing around with some flight combos on Delta from AUS to random cities to the East of CVG and it looks like Delta is showing a CVG connection at the top of the search results in several instances. I searched for one way flights on June 11th. YYZ, LGA and DCA are timed with ~30-40 min connections in CVG and the lowest cost. BOS, EWR, PHL, BWI, CLT, BNA, ORD are all showing the lowest fare with a connection in CVG and about a 2 hour layover.

Surprised with the low cost on this flight and willingness to pick up some connecting passengers.

Based on some data I have seen, it seems upwards of 15-20% of DL's CVG ops are connecting. There is an article that was published a week or two ago that gave the O&D pax number, I can't find it right now, though. Some of the recent additional frequencies have really helped connections.

I also find it interesting that DL has yet to issue an official press release on the growth at CVG. It gives me hope that there is more to come, earlier this year, there were multiple weeks of DL increases before an official announcement was made.

I would love to see DL add some of the cut frequencies back, I think it would really help loads on some routes, increasing connections and giving business pax more options (CVG-MEM was a great example why 1x/day in not sustainable). I think CVG-BNA/MKE could go back to 2x/day as LF's are recovering nicely, I also see CVG-RDU going back to 3x/day given the expansion there. DL just made RDU-EWR 4x/day, I could see DL adding a 4th daily on CVG-EWR as well. I think CVG-STL/MCI would benefit from having a morning departure as well, I never understood just having a mid-day and evening departures.

I did notice CVG-XNA is moving to an evening departure??? That does not make a lot of sense and it doesn't look like there are any additional connection options as a result. Using Flightaware.com, fares on the route routinely reach upwards of $600-800 one way, that could explain why the route has stayed with such low LF's.

How is CVG-BNA doing now? It was in the 40% range not too long ago, I fear they may cut it. However, I'm convinced the reason it is so low is because it leaves too early in the morning from BNA, thus, not allowing for many connections. For example, I can't book BNA-CDG via CVG because the BNA flight leaves at 6:00 am and the CDG flight does not leave until evening. I wish they'd do something to rectify that so one doesn't have to connect in ATL or DET.

$600-800 on CVG-XNA? Wow, that's insane for a RJ operation. I wonder why they keep that route anyway, it must be a corporate contract or something.

BTW, when do you think we'll see an official announcement from either AA or CVG regarding AA's planned move to B and their supposed expansion?

Here are the last 3 months
September CVG-BNA-61.84%:BNA-CVG-37.99%
August CVG-BNA-55.36%:BNA-CVG-33.97%
July CVG-BNA 55.87%:BNA-CVG-37.6%

I see the CVG-XNA flight showing a median of around $350 dollars, while the maximum ticket price sold was $769(about the same as the BNA-CVG flight)
https://flightaware.com/insight/airline/KCVG/KXNA/

cvgComair wrote:

I would assume fairly soon, I do find it odd that we have not heard anything about the move. I personally would not expect any expansion, looking at the AA schedule, they are going to be down seats this April, certainly not a good sign for any adds. I think CVG just messed up the numbers. However, DL's pax numbers are certainly going to have quite the jump for 2018 and cause more concession demand. There is about a 12% increase in seats YOY for DL in the summer, that's quite a bit of extra pax.

Hmm, so that planned AA expansion to 800,000 enplanements was bad information?

cvgComair wrote:

I think CVG-STL would benefit from having a morning departure as well.

The prices have come down a bunch recently on the flight now also. Not that STL-CVG has a bunch of O&D but now it is $100 each way (sometimes less) for most days. It used to be over $150 each way so that might increase the O&D somewhat. That just changed within the last month or so. I plan to keep an eye on the numbers to see if that changes anything.

I know CVG is still listed as a Delta hub on places like Wikipedia, but is it time call it a focus city? Not only on the latest Investor's Day presentation did they list CVG as a focus city (along with RDU and BOS), but they also don't even list CVG as a "Key Hub or Market" on the Corporate Stats and Facts page. They didn't even mention it during Investor Day, even though they express quite a bit of excitement about growing RDU and BOS.

http://s1.q4cdn.com/231238688/files/doc ... y_2017.pdf (see slide 24)
http://news.delta.com/corporate-stats-and-facts
http://s1.q4cdn.com/231238688/files/doc ... script.pdf

It's next to impossible to find anywhere within Delta's website or materials where they list CVG as a hub. I know Delta's service has grown a little bit here and there as of late and some connections are still routed through CVG, but should it be considered a "hub" here in 2018?

SgtBarone wrote:

I know CVG is still listed as a Delta hub on places like Wikipedia, but is it time call it a focus city? Not only on the latest Investor's Day presentation did they list CVG as a focus city (along with RDU and BOS), but they also don't even list CVG as a "Key Hub or Market" on the Corporate Stats and Facts page. They didn't even mention it during Investor Day, even though they express quite a bit of excitement about growing RDU and BOS.

http://s1.q4cdn.com/231238688/files/doc ... y_2017.pdf (see slide 24)
http://news.delta.com/corporate-stats-and-facts
http://s1.q4cdn.com/231238688/files/doc ... script.pdf

It's next to impossible to find anywhere within Delta's website or materials where they list CVG as a hub. I know Delta's service has grown a little bit here and there as of late and some connections are still routed through CVG, but should it be considered a "hub" here in 2018?

I think it's now officially a focus city given the reference in the Investor Day presentation. Delta is growing quite a bit in their other two focus cities (RDU and BOS), would be great to see AUS as just the start to a new wave of growth. I personally would be ok with dropping of a few routes such as MKE and XNA if it means we end up getting back MSY, SAN, PHX, PDX etc. Let's give this focus city thing a try!

A few diversions from Europe at CVG today, both were enroute to JFK:
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL400
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL408

SgtBarone wrote:

I know CVG is still listed as a Delta hub on places like Wikipedia, but is it time call it a focus city? Not only on the latest Investor's Day presentation did they list CVG as a focus city (along with RDU and BOS), but they also don't even list CVG as a "Key Hub or Market" on the Corporate Stats and Facts page. They didn't even mention it during Investor Day, even though they express quite a bit of excitement about growing RDU and BOS.

http://s1.q4cdn.com/231238688/files/doc ... y_2017.pdf (see slide 24)
http://news.delta.com/corporate-stats-and-facts
http://s1.q4cdn.com/231238688/files/doc ... script.pdf

It's next to impossible to find anywhere within Delta's website or materials where they list CVG as a hub. I know Delta's service has grown a little bit here and there as of late and some connections are still routed through CVG, but should it be considered a "hub" here in 2018?

If DL themselves refers to it as a focus city, then it is. It’s time to update Wikipedia accordingly.

Also, how come MCO is not considered a focus city? I didn’t see it listed on there.

ADrum23 wrote:

SgtBarone wrote:

I know CVG is still listed as a Delta hub on places like Wikipedia, but is it time call it a focus city? Not only on the latest Investor's Day presentation did they list CVG as a focus city (along with RDU and BOS), but they also don't even list CVG as a "Key Hub or Market" on the Corporate Stats and Facts page. They didn't even mention it during Investor Day, even though they express quite a bit of excitement about growing RDU and BOS.

http://s1.q4cdn.com/231238688/files/doc ... y_2017.pdf (see slide 24)
http://news.delta.com/corporate-stats-and-facts
http://s1.q4cdn.com/231238688/files/doc ... script.pdf

It's next to impossible to find anywhere within Delta's website or materials where they list CVG as a hub. I know Delta's service has grown a little bit here and there as of late and some connections are still routed through CVG, but should it be considered a "hub" here in 2018?

If DL themselves refers to it as a focus city, then it is. It’s time to update Wikipedia accordingly.

Also, how come MCO is not considered a focus city? I didn’t see it listed on there.

That is why I ignore DL's publications on hub/focus city designations, they are so inconsistent. If we are to believe DL, apparently GRU/ICN/MEX are now DL hubs . For CVG, I like the term glorified focus city and mini-hub, because the schedule is banked like a hub and still serves a significant chunk of connecting pax (much greater than RDU/MCO for sure, and due to BOS's geography, I bet CVG's connecting % is still higher). Frankly, it doesn't matter what its called, I probably will continue to say hub until DL "dehubs" it, which seems pretty unlikely at the moment. As for Wikipedia, due to the quite goofy rules of citing primary and secondary sources, the end result it probably going to be how they were listed before, but I don't wish to elaborate on such things here.

Midwestindy wrote:

I see the CVG-XNA flight showing a median of around $350 dollars, while the maximum ticket price sold was $769(about the same as the BNA-CVG flight)
https://flightaware.com/insight/airline/KCVG/KXNA/

Do you know if there is any way to get RT prices (I am sure the answer is no)? Fares are high on the route, but as you point out, not much different than some of the other short CVG routes. I do wonder what is keeping that flight afloat, looking at prior timetables, it was only 2xCRJ in the peak hub days and that was with all the connecting pax.

cvgComair wrote:

ADrum23 wrote:

SgtBarone wrote:

I know CVG is still listed as a Delta hub on places like Wikipedia, but is it time call it a focus city? Not only on the latest Investor's Day presentation did they list CVG as a focus city (along with RDU and BOS), but they also don't even list CVG as a "Key Hub or Market" on the Corporate Stats and Facts page. They didn't even mention it during Investor Day, even though they express quite a bit of excitement about growing RDU and BOS.

http://s1.q4cdn.com/231238688/files/doc ... y_2017.pdf (see slide 24)
http://news.delta.com/corporate-stats-and-facts
http://s1.q4cdn.com/231238688/files/doc ... script.pdf

It's next to impossible to find anywhere within Delta's website or materials where they list CVG as a hub. I know Delta's service has grown a little bit here and there as of late and some connections are still routed through CVG, but should it be considered a "hub" here in 2018?

If DL themselves refers to it as a focus city, then it is. It’s time to update Wikipedia accordingly.

Also, how come MCO is not considered a focus city? I didn’t see it listed on there.

That is why I ignore DL's publications on hub/focus city designations, they are so inconsistent. If we are to believe DL, apparently GRU/ICN/MEX are now DL hubs . For CVG, I like the term glorified focus city and mini-hub, because the schedule is banked like a hub and still serves a significant chunk of connecting pax (much greater than RDU/MCO for sure, and due to BOS's geography, I bet CVG's connecting % is still higher). Frankly, it doesn't matter what its called, I probably will continue to say hub until DL "dehubs" it, which seems pretty unlikely at the moment. As for Wikipedia, due to the quite goofy rules of citing primary and secondary sources, the end result it probably going to be how they were listed before, but I don't wish to elaborate on such things here.

Fair enough. Sorry if I changed anything that went against consensus. I agree with you that it certainly appears more of a mini-hub, but honestly, I cannot find anything that lists CVG as a formal hub, and this presentation is the most formal statement from DL to date regarding CVG's status. I may contact them directly and see what they say.

I'll be interested to see what DL says when they make a formal announcement on expansion at CVG (they still have not made any formal announcements for the CVG-AUS add).

I bet it depends on who you contact. I know a user asked them on twitter a while ago and they said CVG was not a hub currently but something to the effect that it might change soon. I asked the call center one time and they said CVG was still a hub, yet I also remember someone say a DL rep told them that CVG was not a hub.

It's kind of like WN not saying wether holding seats is allowed, DL just seems to want to keep it ambiguous. My thinking is that they don't want bad press by calling it a focus city everywhere, as it would effectively "dehub" CVG, or seeming like their position is weakening, especially as they are trying to grow in the city, if you notice the DL reps never explicitly call CVG a focus city or hub.

I'd be interested to hear what the station manager (currently Christy Blackburn) calls CVG, that would probably be the best point of contact.

Seeing that OneJet has suspended CVG-PIT for Jan/Feb due to aircraft issues, some word on the PIT forum that the route might not be returning. The flight seems chronically delayed and even cancelled, which has to be a huge disincentive for business pax to actually use the route. I would love to see UE on LUK-PIT, I would think it could do similarly well like LUK-BKL.

cvgComair wrote:

I'll be interested to see what DL says when they make a formal announcement on expansion at CVG (they still have not made any formal announcements for the CVG-AUS add).

I bet it depends on who you contact. I know a user asked them on twitter a while ago and they said CVG was not a hub currently but something to the effect that it might change soon. I asked the call center one time and they said CVG was still a hub, yet I also remember someone say a DL rep told them that CVG was not a hub.

It's kind of like WN not saying wether holding seats is allowed, DL just seems to want to keep it ambiguous. My thinking is that they don't want bad press by calling it a focus city everywhere, as it would effectively "dehub" CVG, or seeming like their position is weakening, especially as they are trying to grow in the city, if you notice the DL reps never explicitly call CVG a focus city or hub.

I'd be interested to hear what the station manager (currently Christy Blackburn) calls CVG, that would probably be the best point of contact.

I see Christy is on twitter. Too bad I just deleted my twitter, I would ask her there.

Don't most people (outside of us aviation geeks) not see CVG as a hub anyway? I don't think most people would get offended if they called it one or the other. I personally don't care what people want to call it, I consider it both a mini-hub and focus city (more of a hub than RDU and BOS, but not quite the full blown hub it once was).

If we really want to determine what to call it, we should ask ourselves how much bigger will Delta get in CVG? Will they ever grow back to 100+ flights a day? That could play a factor in what DL's operation at CVG will be called in the future.

ADrum23 wrote:

cvgComair wrote:

I'll be interested to see what DL says when they make a formal announcement on expansion at CVG (they still have not made any formal announcements for the CVG-AUS add).

I bet it depends on who you contact. I know a user asked them on twitter a while ago and they said CVG was not a hub currently but something to the effect that it might change soon. I asked the call center one time and they said CVG was still a hub, yet I also remember someone say a DL rep told them that CVG was not a hub.

It's kind of like WN not saying wether holding seats is allowed, DL just seems to want to keep it ambiguous. My thinking is that they don't want bad press by calling it a focus city everywhere, as it would effectively "dehub" CVG, or seeming like their position is weakening, especially as they are trying to grow in the city, if you notice the DL reps never explicitly call CVG a focus city or hub.

I'd be interested to hear what the station manager (currently Christy Blackburn) calls CVG, that would probably be the best point of contact.

I see Christy is on twitter. Too bad I just deleted my twitter, I would ask her there.

Don't most people (outside of us aviation geeks) not see CVG as a hub anyway? I don't think most people would get offended if they called it one or the other. I personally don't care what people want to call it, I consider it both a mini-hub and focus city (more of a hub than RDU and BOS, but not quite the full blown hub it once was).

If we really want to determine what to call it, we should ask ourselves how much bigger will Delta get in CVG? Will they ever grow back to 100+ flights a day? That could play a factor in what DL's operation at CVG will be called in the future.

I do find it interesting that if you go to the source listed on Wikipedia for CVG's hub status you go to a list of "key hubs and markets" news pages. The other links work...but when you click on Cincinnati...it says "Access Denied." (see here: http://news.delta.com/global-networketwork)

jtwall wrote:

ADrum23 wrote:

cvgComair wrote:

I'll be interested to see what DL says when they make a formal announcement on expansion at CVG (they still have not made any formal announcements for the CVG-AUS add).

I bet it depends on who you contact. I know a user asked them on twitter a while ago and they said CVG was not a hub currently but something to the effect that it might change soon. I asked the call center one time and they said CVG was still a hub, yet I also remember someone say a DL rep told them that CVG was not a hub.

It's kind of like WN not saying wether holding seats is allowed, DL just seems to want to keep it ambiguous. My thinking is that they don't want bad press by calling it a focus city everywhere, as it would effectively "dehub" CVG, or seeming like their position is weakening, especially as they are trying to grow in the city, if you notice the DL reps never explicitly call CVG a focus city or hub.

I'd be interested to hear what the station manager (currently Christy Blackburn) calls CVG, that would probably be the best point of contact.

I see Christy is on twitter. Too bad I just deleted my twitter, I would ask her there.

Don't most people (outside of us aviation geeks) not see CVG as a hub anyway? I don't think most people would get offended if they called it one or the other. I personally don't care what people want to call it, I consider it both a mini-hub and focus city (more of a hub than RDU and BOS, but not quite the full blown hub it once was).

If we really want to determine what to call it, we should ask ourselves how much bigger will Delta get in CVG? Will they ever grow back to 100+ flights a day? That could play a factor in what DL's operation at CVG will be called in the future.

I do find it interesting that if you go to the source listed on Wikipedia for CVG's hub status you go to a list of "key hubs and markets" news pages. The other links work...but when you click on Cincinnati...it says "Access Denied." (see here: http://news.delta.com/global-networketwork)

That was updated in April, this is the updated key hubs and markets page from October: http://news.delta.com/corporate-stats-and-facts

jtwall wrote:

ADrum23 wrote:

cvgComair wrote:

I'll be interested to see what DL says when they make a formal announcement on expansion at CVG (they still have not made any formal announcements for the CVG-AUS add).

I bet it depends on who you contact. I know a user asked them on twitter a while ago and they said CVG was not a hub currently but something to the effect that it might change soon. I asked the call center one time and they said CVG was still a hub, yet I also remember someone say a DL rep told them that CVG was not a hub.

It's kind of like WN not saying wether holding seats is allowed, DL just seems to want to keep it ambiguous. My thinking is that they don't want bad press by calling it a focus city everywhere, as it would effectively "dehub" CVG, or seeming like their position is weakening, especially as they are trying to grow in the city, if you notice the DL reps never explicitly call CVG a focus city or hub.

I'd be interested to hear what the station manager (currently Christy Blackburn) calls CVG, that would probably be the best point of contact.

I see Christy is on twitter. Too bad I just deleted my twitter, I would ask her there.

Don't most people (outside of us aviation geeks) not see CVG as a hub anyway? I don't think most people would get offended if they called it one or the other. I personally don't care what people want to call it, I consider it both a mini-hub and focus city (more of a hub than RDU and BOS, but not quite the full blown hub it once was).

If we really want to determine what to call it, we should ask ourselves how much bigger will Delta get in CVG? Will they ever grow back to 100+ flights a day? That could play a factor in what DL's operation at CVG will be called in the future.

I do find it interesting that if you go to the source listed on Wikipedia for CVG's hub status you go to a list of "key hubs and markets" news pages. The other links work...but when you click on Cincinnati...it says "Access Denied." (see here: http://news.delta.com/global-networketwork)

I find it odd that they hid the page from view and did not outright delete it. The page was hidden the same day the Feb 2017 announcement was made. They actually updated the hub station table that same day, here is the link, but they never posted it on their website: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C3l2tviWAAEdBBq.jpg.

If you go to the route map it has BOS and CVG a hub but not RDU. A little consistency please! haha.

ADrum23 wrote:

$600-800 on CVG-XNA? Wow, that's insane for a RJ operation. I wonder why they keep that route anyway, it must be a corporate contract or something.

As I'm sure has come up in previous iterations of this thread, CVG-XNA connects the corporate headquarters of Procter and Gamble and Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart is one of the world's largest sellers of P&G products. Which side of that relationship, or both, funds the existence of DL's current CVG-XNA flight, which enables meetings in Bentonville to be done as day trips from Cincinnati, is left as an exercise for the reader.

Jshank83 wrote:

If you go to the route map it has BOS and CVG a hub but not RDU. A little consistency please! haha.

The interactive route map is out of date, the flights are up to date but the hubs aren't, one way you can tell is that they haven't changed LHR to a Hub. Their regular route map is out of date as well, it lists BOS-AUS/MCI/JAX/ORF as future service when those routes started almost 6 months ago. I don't think DL is trying to pull anything, I think they just haven't taken the time to edit everything. I think it is just logical to use the DL investor day presentation, 1. It is the most up to date and 2. Any company is going to give the most accurate information to their investors.

Either way though, calling it a focus city or hub doesn't really change much.

Hub? Focus city? Mini-hub? Spoke? Strikes me as the Delta at CVG version of "You can call me Ray . . ."

ADrum23 wrote:

cvgComair wrote:

ADrum23 wrote:

If DL themselves refers to it as a focus city, then it is. It’s time to update Wikipedia accordingly.

Also, how come MCO is not considered a focus city? I didn’t see it listed on there.

That is why I ignore DL's publications on hub/focus city designations, they are so inconsistent. If we are to believe DL, apparently GRU/ICN/MEX are now DL hubs . For CVG, I like the term glorified focus city and mini-hub, because the schedule is banked like a hub and still serves a significant chunk of connecting pax (much greater than RDU/MCO for sure, and due to BOS's geography, I bet CVG's connecting % is still higher). Frankly, it doesn't matter what its called, I probably will continue to say hub until DL "dehubs" it, which seems pretty unlikely at the moment. As for Wikipedia, due to the quite goofy rules of citing primary and secondary sources, the end result it probably going to be how they were listed before, but I don't wish to elaborate on such things here.

Fair enough. Sorry if I changed anything that went against consensus. I agree with you that it certainly appears more of a mini-hub, but honestly, I cannot find anything that lists CVG as a formal hub, and this presentation is the most formal statement from DL to date regarding CVG's status. I may contact them directly and see what they say.

You didn't go against any consensus. There frankly isn't a consensus that needs to be reached. At this point it's fanboyism that's keeping the information from being properly updated on Wikipedia. In the most recent information available, Delta itself is calling CVG a focus city, along with BOS and RDU. That's about as unambiguous as it gets.

SgtBarone wrote:

ADrum23 wrote:

cvgComair wrote:

That is why I ignore DL's publications on hub/focus city designations, they are so inconsistent. If we are to believe DL, apparently GRU/ICN/MEX are now DL hubs . For CVG, I like the term glorified focus city and mini-hub, because the schedule is banked like a hub and still serves a significant chunk of connecting pax (much greater than RDU/MCO for sure, and due to BOS's geography, I bet CVG's connecting % is still higher). Frankly, it doesn't matter what its called, I probably will continue to say hub until DL "dehubs" it, which seems pretty unlikely at the moment. As for Wikipedia, due to the quite goofy rules of citing primary and secondary sources, the end result it probably going to be how they were listed before, but I don't wish to elaborate on such things here.

Fair enough. Sorry if I changed anything that went against consensus. I agree with you that it certainly appears more of a mini-hub, but honestly, I cannot find anything that lists CVG as a formal hub, and this presentation is the most formal statement from DL to date regarding CVG's status. I may contact them directly and see what they say.

You didn't go against any consensus. There frankly isn't a consensus that needs to be reached. At this point it's fanboyism that's keeping the information from being properly updated on Wikipedia. In the most recent information available, Delta itself is calling CVG a focus city, along with BOS and RDU. That's about as unambiguous as it gets.

You obviously don’t understand Wikipedia very well, it has to be properly sourced, even if that is not techniclaly accurate. Likewise, you can’t just decide that consensus does not need to be reached. I don’t understand why we are discussing not this on this forum, based on Wikipedia’s sourcing policies, CVG/BOS are still hubs. Wikipedia is supposed to rely on Secondary sources, not primary ones (the inconsistency DL is displaying is the exact reason why primary sources are not normally used, you have to draw the line somewhere, even if it is not accurate). Based on common knowledge and the more recent primary source, CVG and BOS are key cities/focus cities/mini-hubs, whatever you want to call them. I don’t think anyone here is disagreeing that CVG and BOS are not hubs in the traditional sense, but are focus city operations for DL. Let’s keep the policies of Wikipedia out of here, this is not the place to argue with their consensus. There is a reason I use different usernames on Wikipedia and here, on Wikipedia I edit based on their guidelines, here I put forth my own opinions, not what a (sometimes absurd) rubric of using sources says.

On another note, according to https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/ ... chart.html, CVG has just over 700,000 connecting pax per year. Given that some of these are not DL, I would imagine the vast majority of these are DL as F9 offered almost no connections in 2016. Since DL had roughly a 50% market share during 2016, that puts DL's connecting pax right at 20% for 2016.

And the CMH numbers for November have been posted... not too shabby growth for November 2017 compared to November 2016.
Air Canada up 15.3%
American up 4.8%
Delta up 1%
Frontier up 23.4%
Southwest up 5.6%
But United down 4.6%
Overall CMH up 3.6% over Nov 2016 and up 3.3% year to date.
6,934,320 YTD passengers in 2017. (end of November)

So with a Decent December, looks like total passengers for the year should be around 7.5 million. I believe that is close to record territory going back to the hub days but can't find those numbers right at the moment. With 4% growth in 2018, we would end up with just shy of 8 million passengers-- not an unreasonable goal with Frontier apparently finally taking flight (pun totally intended) and the arrival of Sprit.

As for Rickenbacker. Allegiant 244,856 year to date 2017 compared to 183,571 at this point in 2016 so about 30% growth, which is very impressive indeed.

https://flycolumbus.com/storage/product ... -stats.pdf

brooklynchris13 wrote:

And the CMH numbers for November have been posted... not too shabby growth for November 2017 compared to November 2016.
Air Canada up 15.3%
American up 4.8%
Delta up 1%
Frontier up 23.4%
Southwest up 5.6%
But United down 4.6%
Overall CMH up 3.6% over Nov 2016 and up 3.3% year to date.
6,934,320 YTD passengers in 2017. (end of November)

So with a Decent December, looks like total passengers for the year should be around 7.5 million. I believe that is close to record territory going back to the hub days but can't find those numbers right at the moment. With 4% growth in 2018, we would end up with just shy of 8 million passengers-- not an unreasonable goal with Frontier apparently finally taking flight (pun totally intended) and the arrival of Sprit.

As for Rickenbacker. Allegiant 244,856 year to date 2017 compared to 183,571 at this point in 2016 so about 30% growth, which is very impressive indeed.

https://flycolumbus.com/storage/product ... -stats.pdf

OneJet makes its debut on a report. 150 passengers on 37 flights equals an average of 4 passengers per inbound flight and 171 on 37 departures equals 4.62. Those are 57% and 66% LFs for the first month (unless I'm having a massive brain fart) but, keep in mind, their planes hold 7. I wonder what their definition of "good" is.

DeltaRules wrote:

brooklynchris13 wrote:

And the CMH numbers for November have been posted... not too shabby growth for November 2017 compared to November 2016.
Air Canada up 15.3%
American up 4.8%
Delta up 1%
Frontier up 23.4%
Southwest up 5.6%
But United down 4.6%
Overall CMH up 3.6% over Nov 2016 and up 3.3% year to date.
6,934,320 YTD passengers in 2017. (end of November)

So with a Decent December, looks like total passengers for the year should be around 7.5 million. I believe that is close to record territory going back to the hub days but can't find those numbers right at the moment. With 4% growth in 2018, we would end up with just shy of 8 million passengers-- not an unreasonable goal with Frontier apparently finally taking flight (pun totally intended) and the arrival of Sprit.

As for Rickenbacker. Allegiant 244,856 year to date 2017 compared to 183,571 at this point in 2016 so about 30% growth, which is very impressive indeed.

https://flycolumbus.com/storage/product ... -stats.pdf

OneJet makes its debut on a report. 150 passengers on 37 flights equals an average of 4 passengers per inbound flight and 171 on 37 departures equals 4.62. Those are 57% and 66% LFs for the first month (unless I'm having a massive brain fart) but, keep in mind, their planes hold 7. I wonder what their definition of "good" is.

That is a pretty good point and must make an an interesting meeting... Can you imagine if Southwest or AA or DL (or anyone else) have ever had a discussion around a board table where that was the question:

"Say Mr Moneyjangle, we just started this new CMH service, how does it look? 4 you say? Im sorry did you say "4??!!!"" Great Job there young whippersnapper, I knew CMH would come through for us!" Perhaps its time to think about getting us a bigger airplane for the route. Call Orville and Wilbur and see what they got brewing up up there in Dayton.... (and as well all know, Wilbur and Orville were just not able to quite get the engine design right so the 757 was not born in a garage in Dayton in 1917 and the rest is history)