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Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:38 pm
by jplatts
DeltaRules wrote:
jplatts wrote:
jbmitt wrote:
Hey jplatts.. Starbucks is in nearly every city in America. Costco is in most midsize cities.. maybe Alaska should fly from SEA to every city with a population of 50k people.
Retail coffee and wholesale doesn’t generate much business travel.


Good point, but Amazon does have a major presence in Northern Kentucky, including an Amazon Air hub at CVG. While the majority of individuals who work at Starbucks coffee stores, Costco warehourses, or Amazon distribution centers will not have to travel to SEA, there might be occasional business travel to SEA from CVG by the managers of Starbucks stores, Costco warehouses, and Amazon distribution centers, but the individuals who do need to travel to SEA from CVG can already do so on the DL CVG-SEA nonstops or through a connection at ORD, MDW, MSP, DEN, or SLC.

DL does have nonstop service from its SEA hub to two destinations in the contiguous U.S. that AS does not serve, and these two destinations are CVG and JAC.

I agree that AS does not have to go to every city with a population of 50K people from SEA since DL now has a hub at SEA, since DL can connect business travelers going from SEA to smaller U.S. destinations not served nonstop from SEA through its SLC, MSP, DTW, ATL, and JFK hubs, since AA has nonstop service to most of its hubs from SEA, since UA has nonstop service to all of its hubs in the contiguous U.S. from SEA, since HA does have nonstop service to SEA from HNL and OGG, since most of the individuals who work at Starbucks coffee locations will never need to travel to SEA, and since the managers who might need to occasionally travel to SEA can already do so from places not served by AS on AA, DL, UA, or HA.


You advocate and contradict your own argument for AS nonstops in the same post.


Even though DL already has hubs at both CVG and SEA, the case could be made for AS to add nonstop service from SEA to CVG in order to defend AS's market share in the SEA market, in order to better compete against DL in the SEA market, in order to connect passengers from CVG to AS destinations in Alaska and the Pacific Northwest that DL does not serve, and in order to connect passengers from CVG onto HU's SEA-PEK and SEA-PVG flights. On the other hand, most of the travel between CVG and SEA is already covered by the DL SEA-CVG nonstop and the existing connecting options through ORD, MDW, MSP, DEN, and SLC.

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:20 pm
by jph7291
All of this mention of CVG's concourses A & B "rapidly aging" cracks me up. Anybody remember the old T1 & T2? Anybody familiar with EWR Terminal A? Or all of MEM? Or ORD T2 & T3? Most of LGA? All of CLE? These are "rapidly aging" (aged) facilities. Yes, some of these are slated for renovation, but most are headed nowhere near demolition besides Terminal A at Newark and, thankfully, most of LGA.

CVG is blessed with excellent terminal facilities. Renovate some bathrooms, place some new carpeting, and fix the baggage handling system and you have concourses that can last DECADES longer. Fact. Over the past year or two, the limiting factor on car-to-gate times has not been the train. It is the security checkpoint.

Capacity-wise, Concourse A been slated for the addition of a western wing for more than a decade. No doubt in my mind this will be a central component of the upcoming master plan. My prediction is for work to begin in 2019 and we will see opening in 2021. The institution of common-use gate practices and the AA shuffle over to B will serve as effective stop-gap measures until that time. Some expansion and reconfiguration of the ticketing hall is likely. The addition of approx. 20 gates to A will be a massive gain. Barring the development of any mini-hub/hub (possible) or major DL expansion (unlikely), 20 additional gates will suffice for a LONG time. What we are seeing over the last few years is mostly natural up-sizing of flight activity to match the air service demands of the Cincinnati area, including a big ebb of traffic back from DAY. Compare CVG with CLE, IND, CMH, PIT, BNA, MCI as fellow cities of similar size. This growth will taper off in a couple years once we get to ~10-11 million. Anybody's guess about a new connecting hub by F9/G4/et al is as good as mine. Long-term airport development plans are not predicated on guesses but on careful predictions based on current trends. CVG has shown a clear trend over the last decade away from hub airport to local O&D airport. The master plan should appropriately reflect this fact and I expect that it will.

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:29 am
by DeltaRules
DL just announced SLC-PIT.

Come the hell on, CRAA.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I257 using Tapatalk

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:07 pm
by cvgComair
The Rental Car center will begin construction in mid-2019, the bid was awarded yesterday: https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/ ... ct-at.html.

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:17 pm
by ADrum23
cvgComair wrote:
The Rental Car center will begin construction in mid-2019, the bid was awarded yesterday: https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/ ... ct-at.html.


I can’t read it, it’s behind a paywall, but mid-2019 for the start of construction? They will be pushing to the limit to get it done by 2021.

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:19 pm
by StuckinCMHland
DeltaRules wrote:
DL just announced SLC-PIT.

Come the hell on, CRAA.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I257 using Tapatalk


Just curious,

What does that route do for CMH? Wouldn't CMH-SEA be a better route?

I know SLC is a DL hub, but I don't understand its attraction for midwestern flyers. fop they run TATL or TransPacf from there?

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:43 pm
by Jshank83
StuckinCMHland wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:
DL just announced SLC-PIT.

Come the hell on, CRAA.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I257 using Tapatalk


Just curious,

What does that route do for CMH? Wouldn't CMH-SEA be a better route?

I know SLC is a DL hub, but I don't understand its attraction for midwestern flyers. fop they run TATL or TransPacf from there?


If you want to fly DL out west it is a good connection point. Central location before you fan out to the coast. MSP is out of the way for most in the midwest (not as much for Ohio locations). It is like Denver for UA, just a little further west

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:46 pm
by cvgComair
ADrum23 wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
The Rental Car center will begin construction in mid-2019, the bid was awarded yesterday: https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/ ... ct-at.html.


I can’t read it, it’s behind a paywall, but mid-2019 for the start of construction? They will be pushing to the limit to get it done by 2021.

Here is the story, starts mid-2019, finishes 3rd quarter of 2021:

Messer Construction Co. has landed a $150 million project at Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport.
The West End-based general contractor was selected to build a state-of-the-art consolidated rental car facility, which is expected to have a total cost of $150 million.
Mindy Kershner, spokeswoman for CVG, said the new facility will improve the experience for travelers at CVG.
“People will be able to get off their plane, grab their bags and get a rental car all in one facility,” Kershner told me. 
In addition to saving travelers time, she said the new facility will help reduce emissions from shuttles used to move people from the airport terminal to the rental car lots and could free up additional land near the airport for redevelopment.
The five-story garage will be located just west of Terminal 3. There will be 1,452 parking spaces for the rental/return portion of the facility and another 840 parking spaces for cleaning, staging and additional storage.
The consolidated rental car facility will include a new garage for pick-up and return of rental vehicles, a garage for vehicle maintenance and fueling, a new customer service building for rent-a-cars and administrative offices, a new entrance road to CVG and general site improvements.

The consolidated car rental facility is a signature part of the airport’s strategic plan for the next half-decade. The new car rental facility will replace Terminals 1 and 2 at the airport and allow passengers closer and easier access to such vehicles.
Phase I of this project includes a new exit plaza in an existing garage complex. This part of the project is expected to start in February. It also will require a partial demolition of an existing garage.
Work on the main portion of the consolidated rental car facility is expected to begin in mid-2019.
Pierce Goodwin Alexander & Linville was awarded a nearly $11 million contract to design the consolidated rental car facility in February 2017. The project is expected to be complete by the third quarter of 2021.
It’s likely the project will need a great deal of concrete. Hilltop Basic Resources Inc. recently received approval to build a ready-mixed concrete plant near CVG with plans to supply a lot of the construction on and around the airport.
Messer Construction is the second-largest general contractor in Greater Cincinnati, according to Business Courier research. The company had local billings in 2016 of nearly $298 million.

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:49 pm
by DeltaRules
Jshank83 wrote:
StuckinCMHland wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:
DL just announced SLC-PIT.

Come the hell on, CRAA.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I257 using Tapatalk


Just curious,

What does that route do for CMH? Wouldn't CMH-SEA be a better route?

I know SLC is a DL hub, but I don't understand its attraction for midwestern flyers. fop they run TATL or TransPacf from there?


If you want to fly DL out west it is a good connection point. Central location before you fan out to the coast. MSP is out of the way for most in the midwest (not as much for Ohio locations). It is like Denver for UA, just a little further west


Additional options for travelers- I've traveled to LAS and SAN in the last couple of years and had to go to DTW, MSP, and ATL to get to/from there respectively; SLC would've been more direct. Plus, not only is it more linear, but I think there are a few cities which are exclusive to SLC in terms of service. An SLC flight eliminates a double-connection.

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:56 pm
by WWads
Well this sucks.

"Parenthetically, the Delta testimony revealed that its transaction with BBD priced the CS100 as a 1,000-mile airplane. Should Delta begin using the aircraft on longer routes, additional monies will be paid to Bombardier. The CS100 has a range of more than 2,900nm."

https://leehamnews.com/2017/05/25/bomba ... ny-claims/

If this is DL's plan, that pretty much kills the idea of the CS100 being used to reopen CVG-SAN, PHX, PDX, etc. I could see that payment requirement being waived though if DL agrees to another large order, perhaps of CS300s.

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:57 pm
by jplatts
StuckinCMHland wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:
DL just announced SLC-PIT.

Come the hell on, CRAA.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I257 using Tapatalk


Just curious,

What does that route do for CMH? Wouldn't CMH-SEA be a better route?

I know SLC is a DL hub, but I don't understand its attraction for midwestern flyers. fop they run TATL or TransPacf from there?


DL has nonstops to small regional destinations in the Mountain West and Pacific Northwest from the SLC hub that are not served nonstop from DL's Midwestern and East Coast hubs and that are not served by AA or UA. In addition, SLC is a better connecting point than SEA is for destinations in California, Oregon, Idaho, and Nevada from the Midwest, the South, and the East Coast.

DL does not have any nonstop flights to Asia from SLC, but DL does have nonstop service to HNL and OGG from SLC along with seasonal nonstop service to ANC from SLC.

SLC additionally has nonstop service to AMS and CDG on DL and seasonal nonstop service to LHR on DL, but these European nonstops from SLC are targeted towards O&D and connections to Europe from the West Coast, Western Canada, Idaho, Montana, Utah, Nevada, and Arizona.

WN did previously have nonstop service from STL to SLC, but WN could bring back STL-SLC nonstop service since there are travelers in Greater St. Louis, Greater Columbus, and Greater Cleveland who prefer to fly on WN over DL, since WN would be able to connect passengers to SLC from CMH and CLE through STL (and vice versa) if it brings back STL-SLC nonstop service, and since CMH and CLE currently do not have any nonstop service to SLC on any airline.

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:02 pm
by DeltaRules
In the Southwest thread, SumChristianus mentioned WN is now (and may have been already, I'm not sure) running connections through CMH. Not terribly surprising given it has nearly 20 destinations, but good to see nonetheless.

jplatts wrote:
StuckinCMHland wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:
DL just announced SLC-PIT.

Come the hell on, CRAA.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I257 using Tapatalk


Just curious,

What does that route do for CMH? Wouldn't CMH-SEA be a better route?

I know SLC is a DL hub, but I don't understand its attraction for midwestern flyers. fop they run TATL or TransPacf from there?


DL has nonstops to small regional destinations in the Mountain West and Pacific Northwest from the SLC hub that are not served nonstop from DL's Midwestern and East Coast hubs and that are not served by AA or UA. In addition, SLC is a better connecting point than SEA is for destinations in California, Oregon, Idaho, and Nevada from the Midwest, the South, and the East Coast.

DL does not have any nonstop flights to Asia from SLC, but DL does have nonstop service to HNL and OGG from SLC along with seasonal nonstop service to ANC from SLC.


Good points here.

jplatts wrote:
SLC additionally has nonstop service to AMS and CDG on DL and seasonal nonstop service to LHR on DL, but these European nonstops from SLC are targeted towards O&D and connections to Europe from the West Coast, Western Canada, Idaho, Montana, Utah, Nevada, and Arizona.

WN did previously have nonstop service from STL to SLC, but WN could bring back STL-SLC nonstop service since there are travelers in Greater St. Louis, Greater Columbus, and Greater Cleveland who prefer to fly on WN over DL, since WN would be able to connect passengers to SLC from CMH and CLE through STL (and vice versa) if it brings back STL-SLC nonstop service, and since CMH and CLE currently do not have any nonstop service to SLC on any airline.
[/quote]

I'd rather just have CMH-SLC.

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:43 pm
by cvgComair
WWads wrote:
Well this sucks.

"Parenthetically, the Delta testimony revealed that its transaction with BBD priced the CS100 as a 1,000-mile airplane. Should Delta begin using the aircraft on longer routes, additional monies will be paid to Bombardier. The CS100 has a range of more than 2,900nm."

https://leehamnews.com/2017/05/25/bomba ... ny-claims/

If this is DL's plan, that pretty much kills the idea of the CS100 being used to reopen CVG-SAN, PHX, PDX, etc. I could see that payment requirement being waived though if DL agrees to another large order, perhaps of CS300s.

I think short range flying has always been the plan. Tying up brand new and expensive aircraft on long thin routes is not a smart decision financially. That is why NYC is going to be the first base, running shorter flights like CVG-LGA. Eventually the plane will go west coast, on routes like LAX-SFO, SEA-LAS/LAX/etc, not across the country flying. Think of the routes DL uses the B717 for, that is where we will see the CSeries.

For CVG, the primary reason CVG-SAN/PHX were cut was because ticket prices got too low for adequate yields, loads were over 90%. This is the reason DL puts the 739 on CVG-SFO/LAS, they need a lot of pax since the ticket prices are low. Similarly, the best plane for DL to operate CVG-SAN/PHX would be the 739. PDX is different because that would yield more business traffic, however, unless DL opens up more PTP out of PDX, I think F9 is the only hope for that route.

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:46 pm
by SumChristianus
DeltaRules wrote:
In the Southwest thread, SumChristianus mentioned WN is now (and may have been already, I'm not sure) running connections through CMH. Not terribly surprising given it has nearly 20 destinations, but good to see nonetheless.

jplatts wrote:
StuckinCMHland wrote:

Just curious,

What does that route do for CMH? Wouldn't CMH-SEA be a better route?

I know SLC is a DL hub, but I don't understand its attraction for midwestern flyers. fop they run TATL or TransPacf from there?


DL has nonstops to small regional destinations in the Mountain West and Pacific Northwest from the SLC hub that are not served nonstop from DL's Midwestern and East Coast hubs and that are not served by AA or UA. In addition, SLC is a better connecting point than SEA is for destinations in California, Oregon, Idaho, and Nevada from the Midwest, the South, and the East Coast.

DL does not have any nonstop flights to Asia from SLC, but DL does have nonstop service to HNL and OGG from SLC along with seasonal nonstop service to ANC from SLC.


Good points here.

jplatts wrote:
SLC additionally has nonstop service to AMS and CDG on DL and seasonal nonstop service to LHR on DL, but these European nonstops from SLC are targeted towards O&D and connections to Europe from the West Coast, Western Canada, Idaho, Montana, Utah, Nevada, and Arizona.

WN did previously have nonstop service from STL to SLC, but WN could bring back STL-SLC nonstop service since there are travelers in Greater St. Louis, Greater Columbus, and Greater Cleveland who prefer to fly on WN over DL, since WN would be able to connect passengers to SLC from CMH and CLE through STL (and vice versa) if it brings back STL-SLC nonstop service, and since CMH and CLE currently do not have any nonstop service to SLC on any airline.


I'd rather just have CMH-SLC.[/quote]
Pretty much every mid-size WN station sees some connections. CMH shows about 185 per day in Q3 2017, but I'm not sure if that includes passengers on through flights who stayed on the plane. If it includes all connections CMH is 5% connecting traffic for WN. Southwest has a linear model for its network, almost like that of a bus or train system and runs connections through almost everywhere it serves.

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:13 pm
by ADrum23
cvgComair wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
The Rental Car center will begin construction in mid-2019, the bid was awarded yesterday: https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/ ... ct-at.html.


I can’t read it, it’s behind a paywall, but mid-2019 for the start of construction? They will be pushing to the limit to get it done by 2021.

Here is the story, starts mid-2019, finishes 3rd quarter of 2021:

Messer Construction Co. has landed a $150 million project at Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport.
The West End-based general contractor was selected to build a state-of-the-art consolidated rental car facility, which is expected to have a total cost of $150 million.
Mindy Kershner, spokeswoman for CVG, said the new facility will improve the experience for travelers at CVG.
“People will be able to get off their plane, grab their bags and get a rental car all in one facility,” Kershner told me. 
In addition to saving travelers time, she said the new facility will help reduce emissions from shuttles used to move people from the airport terminal to the rental car lots and could free up additional land near the airport for redevelopment.
The five-story garage will be located just west of Terminal 3. There will be 1,452 parking spaces for the rental/return portion of the facility and another 840 parking spaces for cleaning, staging and additional storage.
The consolidated rental car facility will include a new garage for pick-up and return of rental vehicles, a garage for vehicle maintenance and fueling, a new customer service building for rent-a-cars and administrative offices, a new entrance road to CVG and general site improvements.

The consolidated car rental facility is a signature part of the airport’s strategic plan for the next half-decade. The new car rental facility will replace Terminals 1 and 2 at the airport and allow passengers closer and easier access to such vehicles.
Phase I of this project includes a new exit plaza in an existing garage complex. This part of the project is expected to start in February. It also will require a partial demolition of an existing garage.
Work on the main portion of the consolidated rental car facility is expected to begin in mid-2019.
Pierce Goodwin Alexander & Linville was awarded a nearly $11 million contract to design the consolidated rental car facility in February 2017. The project is expected to be complete by the third quarter of 2021.
It’s likely the project will need a great deal of concrete. Hilltop Basic Resources Inc. recently received approval to build a ready-mixed concrete plant near CVG with plans to supply a lot of the construction on and around the airport.
Messer Construction is the second-largest general contractor in Greater Cincinnati, according to Business Courier research. The company had local billings in 2016 of nearly $298 million.


Interesting. But if they want to get it done by 2021, they should start this year in case of any delays. Will they at least start the road realignment this year as part of the exit plaza?

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:43 pm
by Midwestindy
cvgComair wrote:
WWads wrote:
Well this sucks.

"Parenthetically, the Delta testimony revealed that its transaction with BBD priced the CS100 as a 1,000-mile airplane. Should Delta begin using the aircraft on longer routes, additional monies will be paid to Bombardier. The CS100 has a range of more than 2,900nm."

https://leehamnews.com/2017/05/25/bomba ... ny-claims/

If this is DL's plan, that pretty much kills the idea of the CS100 being used to reopen CVG-SAN, PHX, PDX, etc. I could see that payment requirement being waived though if DL agrees to another large order, perhaps of CS300s.

I think short range flying has always been the plan. Tying up brand new and expensive aircraft on long thin routes is not a smart decision financially. That is why NYC is going to be the first base, running shorter flights like CVG-LGA. Eventually the plane will go west coast, on routes like LAX-SFO, SEA-LAS/LAX/etc, not across the country flying. Think of the routes DL uses the B717 for, that is where we will see the CSeries.

This is DL's strategy moving forward
50 seaters going away.
76 seaters taking over 50 seater flying, with slightly less frequency.
110 seaters (CS) taking over 76 seater flying, with slightly less frequency.
160 seaters taking over 110 (717) and 149 (MD88) seater flying
180-90 seaters taking over 160 seater flying.

With more deliveries for a/c over the next few years, this strategy will free up some RJs and narrow bodies that DL could use for new routes....

cvgComair wrote:
PDX is different because that would yield more business traffic, however, unless DL opens up more PTP out of PDX, I think F9 is the only hope for that route.


In fairness DL operates some p2p out of PDX, namely HNL and LHR/NRT(I don't really consider those hubs for DL although they are sometimes listed as such). F9 is a good possibility for that route, if DL is less inclined to run it.

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:14 am
by flymco753
To be fair, if DL is really wanting to grow MCO into an operation with a lot of connection opportunities to places like BSB, FOR, GRU, MEX and other places like that, then I see MCO-CMH being a daily CRJ-700 easily.

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:41 am
by SumChristianus
cvgComair wrote:
WWads wrote:
Well this sucks.

"Parenthetically, the Delta testimony revealed that its transaction with BBD priced the CS100 as a 1,000-mile airplane. Should Delta begin using the aircraft on longer routes, additional monies will be paid to Bombardier. The CS100 has a range of more than 2,900nm."

https://leehamnews.com/2017/05/25/bomba ... ny-claims/

If this is DL's plan, that pretty much kills the idea of the CS100 being used to reopen CVG-SAN, PHX, PDX, etc. I could see that payment requirement being waived though if DL agrees to another large order, perhaps of CS300s.

I think short range flying has always been the plan. Tying up brand new and expensive aircraft on long thin routes is not a smart decision financially. That is why NYC is going to be the first base, running shorter flights like CVG-LGA. Eventually the plane will go west coast, on routes like LAX-SFO, SEA-LAS/LAX/etc, not across the country flying. Think of the routes DL uses the B717 for, that is where we will see the CSeries.

For CVG, the primary reason CVG-SAN/PHX were cut was because ticket prices got too low for adequate yields, loads were over 90%. This is the reason DL puts the 739 on CVG-SFO/LAS, they need a lot of pax since the ticket prices are low. Similarly, the best plane for DL to operate CVG-SAN/PHX would be the 739. PDX is different because that would yield more business traffic, however, unless DL opens up more PTP out of PDX, I think F9 is the only hope for that route.


So Delta's CS100 contract is really set up so that they have to pay in the future if they fly the CSeries on longer routes?
I thought the CS100 wasn't as good on short routes. Its efficiency is supposedly seen best on longer stage lengths. Perhaps this is what made the CS100 so cheap for Delta. Bombardier could have offered the CS100 "for short routes only", knowing Delta would eventually want to use it farther, and they would recoup their losses in "route extension payments".

Interesting idea for a contract.

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:00 am
by DeltaRules
flymco753 wrote:
To be fair, if DL is really wanting to grow MCO into an operation with a lot of connection opportunities to places like BSB, FOR, GRU, MEX and other places like that, then I see MCO-CMH being a daily CRJ-700 easily.


I could see that or an E170/175 especially since the RP E-jets are to/through CMH all day. They could have one turn down and back to MCO before going back to DTW/JFK/LGA/BOS.

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:05 am
by ADrum23
flymco753 wrote:
To be fair, if DL is really wanting to grow MCO into an operation with a lot of connection opportunities to places like BSB, FOR, GRU, MEX and other places like that, then I see MCO-CMH being a daily CRJ-700 easily.


How much does DL want to grow at MCO. Is MCO even technically a DL focus city (it was not listed as such on their investors day presentation)?

I'd be surprised if DL made some connecting opportunities at MCO, given their unquenchable desire to route as much traffic as possible through ATL.......

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:09 am
by flymco753
ADrum23 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
To be fair, if DL is really wanting to grow MCO into an operation with a lot of connection opportunities to places like BSB, FOR, GRU, MEX and other places like that, then I see MCO-CMH being a daily CRJ-700 easily.


How much does DL want to grow at MCO. Is MCO even technically a DL focus city (it was not listed as such on their investors day presentation)?

I'd be surprised if DL made some connecting opportunities at MCO, given their unquenchable desire to route as much traffic as possible through ATL.......
I see it as a reliever to ATL, while it’s not currently noted as a focus city, I think it will eventually. What there needs to be is more p2p that isn’t weekend only.

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:19 am
by ADrum23
flymco753 wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
To be fair, if DL is really wanting to grow MCO into an operation with a lot of connection opportunities to places like BSB, FOR, GRU, MEX and other places like that, then I see MCO-CMH being a daily CRJ-700 easily.


How much does DL want to grow at MCO. Is MCO even technically a DL focus city (it was not listed as such on their investors day presentation)?

I'd be surprised if DL made some connecting opportunities at MCO, given their unquenchable desire to route as much traffic as possible through ATL.......
I see it as a reliever to ATL, while it’s not currently noted as a focus city, I think it will eventually. What there needs to be is more p2p that isn’t weekend only.


Agree about more daily p2p flying for MCO, but unfortunately, with DL's love affair with ATL, I wouldn't hold my breath. I could see MCO, RDU and CVG collectively being a reliever network for ATL, but that will likely never happen.

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:42 pm
by StuckinCMHland
flymco753 wrote:
To be fair, if DL is really wanting to grow MCO into an operation with a lot of connection opportunities to places like BSB, FOR, GRU, MEX and other places like that, then I see MCO-CMH being a daily CRJ-700 easily.


I understand your point and I like MCO. But last summer we flew CMH-MCO nonstop on an E170 and the plane was not full on either leg of the trip. It had a lot of people heading to/returning from 'rat world' as some locals call it, but it wasn't full. What is sad is that it was actually cheaper to fly to MCO and rent a car there for DAB instead of flying through ATL to DAB and renting a car there. DAB has such a nice terminal and airport but nobody wants to fly there or make it cheap enough for people to fly there.

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:04 pm
by jplatts
StuckinCMHland wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
To be fair, if DL is really wanting to grow MCO into an operation with a lot of connection opportunities to places like BSB, FOR, GRU, MEX and other places like that, then I see MCO-CMH being a daily CRJ-700 easily.


I understand your point and I like MCO. But last summer we flew CMH-MCO nonstop on an E170 and the plane was not full on either leg of the trip. It had a lot of people heading to/returning from 'rat world' as some locals call it, but it wasn't full. What is sad is that it was actually cheaper to fly to MCO and rent a car there for DAB instead of flying through ATL to DAB and renting a car there. DAB has such a nice terminal and airport but nobody wants to fly there or make it cheap enough for people to fly there.


G4 already has its 2nd largest operating base at SFB, and SFB is 40 miles from Daytona Beach whereas MCO is 70 miles from Daytona Beach. In addition, Greater Charlotte is in an market that already has nonstop service to both DAB and SFB as AA operates CLT-DAB nonstop service and G4 operates USA-SFB nonstop service. G4 does serve SWF nonstop from SFB and B6 does serve JFK nonstop from DAB, but SWF is in the northernmost part of the NYC metro area and more than 65 miles from Midtown Manhattan, whereas JFK is one of the main NYC airports (along with LGA and EWR). ATL has no nonstop service from SFB on any airline, and G4 does not serve any airports in the Atlanta metropolitan area.

G4 already has nonstop service to SFB from many markets in Ohio, other Midwestern states, the Northeast, and the Southeast that do not have any nonstop service to DAB, including CVG, DAY, LCK, CLE, IND, SDF, and PIT. There is less need for G4 to serve DAB with SFB being close enough to Daytona Beach, with Daytona Beach being within a 1 hour drive of SFB, and with SFB being located on the North side of the Orlando area. In addition, the total travel time to Daytona Beach from Ohio is usually at least 1 hour shorter on the G4 nonstops to SFB than on connecting flights to DAB through ATL on DL or CLT on AA.

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:14 pm
by flymco753
StuckinCMHland wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
To be fair, if DL is really wanting to grow MCO into an operation with a lot of connection opportunities to places like BSB, FOR, GRU, MEX and other places like that, then I see MCO-CMH being a daily CRJ-700 easily.


I understand your point and I like MCO. But last summer we flew CMH-MCO nonstop on an E170 and the plane was not full on either leg of the trip. It had a lot of people heading to/returning from 'rat world' as some locals call it, but it wasn't full. What is sad is that it was actually cheaper to fly to MCO and rent a car there for DAB instead of flying through ATL to DAB and renting a car there. DAB has such a nice terminal and airport but nobody wants to fly there or make it cheap enough for people to fly there.
With it being Saturday only in the summer it's not the most desirable day to fly it, even at that 6x/wk can possibly work on a CR7 even if they flow some connections through.

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:47 pm
by DeltaRules
StuckinCMHland wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
To be fair, if DL is really wanting to grow MCO into an operation with a lot of connection opportunities to places like BSB, FOR, GRU, MEX and other places like that, then I see MCO-CMH being a daily CRJ-700 easily.


I understand your point and I like MCO. But last summer we flew CMH-MCO nonstop on an E170 and the plane was not full on either leg of the trip. It had a lot of people heading to/returning from 'rat world' as some locals call it, but it wasn't full. What is sad is that it was actually cheaper to fly to MCO and rent a car there for DAB instead of flying through ATL to DAB and renting a car there. DAB has such a nice terminal and airport but nobody wants to fly there or make it cheap enough for people to fly there.


That's interesting to hear. I do CMH-DAB a few times a year and have found $200-250 r/t to be the norm on DL outside of busier times (Spring Break, the Daytona 500/Coke Zero 400, Bike Week, etc). Up until about 2009, we always flew into MCO or JAX (or, in one case, LCK-SFB on Pan Am v3) to get to Daytona because DAB was $400+ r/t on a good day even with CO competing against them, but the fares dropped after the recession and haven't gone back up.

AA (and US before) are typically out of line via CLT, though. (Another reason we need B6 back at CMH- I'd consider a JFK connection if the price were right.)

jplatts wrote:
G4 already has its 2nd largest operating base at SFB, and SFB is 40 miles from Daytona Beach whereas MCO is 70 miles from Daytona Beach. In addition, Greater Charlotte is in an market that already has nonstop service to both DAB and SFB as AA operates CLT-DAB nonstop service and G4 operates USA-SFB nonstop service. G4 does serve SWF nonstop from SFB and B6 does serve JFK nonstop from DAB, but SWF is in the northernmost part of the NYC metro area and more than 65 miles from Midtown Manhattan, whereas JFK is one of the main NYC airports (along with LGA and EWR). ATL has no nonstop service from SFB on any airline, and G4 does not serve any airports in the Atlanta metropolitan area.

G4 already has nonstop service to SFB from many markets in Ohio, other Midwestern states, the Northeast, and the Southeast that do not have any nonstop service to DAB, including CVG, DAY, LCK, CLE, IND, SDF, and PIT. There is less need for G4 to serve DAB with SFB being close enough to Daytona Beach, with Daytona Beach being within a 1 hour drive of SFB, and with SFB being located on the North side of the Orlando area. In addition, the total travel time to Daytona Beach from Ohio is usually at least 1 hour shorter on the G4 nonstops to SFB than on connecting flights to DAB through ATL on DL or CLT on AA.


When did anybody ever suggest G4 was going to start DAB? I would do cartwheels for an LCK-DAB nonstop (and, really, Skybus probably should've tried CMH-DAB to better link Jacksonville and Orlando to their network), but it's never going to happen.

I think there was a bit of funding to help B6 start JFK-DAB but it sounds like it's doing fine. New York was the busiest unserved market from Daytona and, in talking to US agents there one time, apparently both they and DL have noticed a dip in traffic to New York as a result.

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:10 pm
by jplatts
DeltaRules wrote:
When did anybody ever suggest G4 was going to start DAB? I would do cartwheels for an LCK-DAB nonstop (and, really, Skybus probably should've tried CMH-DAB to better link Jacksonville and Orlando to their network), but it's never going to happen.


I agree that G4 is unlikely to ever serve DAB with SFB being only 40 miles from Daytona Beach, and G4 is also already able to get vacation travelers to Daytona Beach from markets that have nonstop service to SFB on G4 on its existing nonstop flights to SFB.

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:14 pm
by cvgComair
ADrum23 wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:

I can’t read it, it’s behind a paywall, but mid-2019 for the start of construction? They will be pushing to the limit to get it done by 2021.

Here is the story, starts mid-2019, finishes 3rd quarter of 2021:

Messer Construction Co. has landed a $150 million project at Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport.
The West End-based general contractor was selected to build a state-of-the-art consolidated rental car facility, which is expected to have a total cost of $150 million.
Mindy Kershner, spokeswoman for CVG, said the new facility will improve the experience for travelers at CVG.
“People will be able to get off their plane, grab their bags and get a rental car all in one facility,” Kershner told me. 
In addition to saving travelers time, she said the new facility will help reduce emissions from shuttles used to move people from the airport terminal to the rental car lots and could free up additional land near the airport for redevelopment.
The five-story garage will be located just west of Terminal 3. There will be 1,452 parking spaces for the rental/return portion of the facility and another 840 parking spaces for cleaning, staging and additional storage.
The consolidated rental car facility will include a new garage for pick-up and return of rental vehicles, a garage for vehicle maintenance and fueling, a new customer service building for rent-a-cars and administrative offices, a new entrance road to CVG and general site improvements.

The consolidated car rental facility is a signature part of the airport’s strategic plan for the next half-decade. The new car rental facility will replace Terminals 1 and 2 at the airport and allow passengers closer and easier access to such vehicles.
Phase I of this project includes a new exit plaza in an existing garage complex. This part of the project is expected to start in February. It also will require a partial demolition of an existing garage.
Work on the main portion of the consolidated rental car facility is expected to begin in mid-2019.
Pierce Goodwin Alexander & Linville was awarded a nearly $11 million contract to design the consolidated rental car facility in February 2017. The project is expected to be complete by the third quarter of 2021.
It’s likely the project will need a great deal of concrete. Hilltop Basic Resources Inc. recently received approval to build a ready-mixed concrete plant near CVG with plans to supply a lot of the construction on and around the airport.
Messer Construction is the second-largest general contractor in Greater Cincinnati, according to Business Courier research. The company had local billings in 2016 of nearly $298 million.


Interesting. But if they want to get it done by 2021, they should start this year in case of any delays. Will they at least start the road realignment this year as part of the exit plaza?

This answers that: https://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/ ... 076991001/

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:31 pm
by Midwestindy
What are the chances we see CVG-LHR on BA?

http://www.travelweekly.com/Travel-News ... -US-cities
Aviation analyst Mike Boyd- "Boyd said he expects that Cincinnati will get a BA flight to London in the next two years."

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:44 pm
by Jshank83
Midwestindy wrote:
What are the chances we see CVG-LHR on BA?

http://www.travelweekly.com/Travel-News ... -US-cities
Aviation analyst Mike Boyd- "Boyd said he expects that Cincinnati will get a BA flight to London in the next two years."


That map has MKE with a flight to Europe. That isn't right is it? or am I missing something?

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:53 pm
by Midwestindy
Jshank83 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
What are the chances we see CVG-LHR on BA?

http://www.travelweekly.com/Travel-News ... -US-cities
Aviation analyst Mike Boyd- "Boyd said he expects that Cincinnati will get a BA flight to London in the next two years."


That map has MKE with a flight to Europe. That isn't right is it? or am I missing something?


Its an error

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:11 pm
by ADrum23
Midwestindy wrote:
What are the chances we see CVG-LHR on BA?

http://www.travelweekly.com/Travel-News ... -US-cities
Aviation analyst Mike Boyd- "Boyd said he expects that Cincinnati will get a BA flight to London in the next two years."


Reading that article make me think of the Oprah meme. "You get a TATL flight, you get a TATL flight, you get a TATL flight. EVERYONE gets a TATL flight!"

Lol, in all seriousness, I'd be beyond shocked if CVG got BA. Why would BA go into a city with a big DL/SkyTeam FF base? Cincinnati is not a huge market, and while I think it could support at least a seasonal LHR flight (though I think even that would cut into the CDG flight yields), it would have to be either on DL or DY. There are other markets BA could enter first that would make more sense. IMO, The next most likely city for BA to LHR service is STL.

I agree with the notion that some of the cities that got TATL flights recently will see additional service. I think WOW (or maybe Icelandair) will come into markets such as RDU, AUS, BNA, IND, etc, in the not too distant future. BNA seems like an obvious add for Condor IMO (if AUS and MSY is any precedent). When the A321LR comes into DY's fleet, we could see more adds from them to mid-sized US cities in the eastern United States.

This all being said, how much TATL service do cities such as BNA and IND actually need? With major hubs near most of these airports, connections are not that difficult. Plus, the markets aren't huge, usually a legacy flight and a LCC flight or two is sufficient for mid-sized markets like BNA, IND, MSY, RDU, etc. For example, I know I said it previously, but after thinking about it more, I doubt DL will ever launch a TATL flight from BNA to either CDG or AMS with ATL so close and BA operating their flight. Plus, the market may not be ready for two TATL flights for a while.

Another thing we need to think about is, the next time the industry experiences turmoil, will some of these flights even survive?

Finally, I wonder if this enthusiasm will carrier over into the next frontier for mid-sized airports: the battle for TPAC service, which I believe will begin in earnest next decade. I don't expect it to be as intense as the current TATL service battle, as flights to Asia are longer and need a solid business case, but I expect cities such as PHX, CLT, AUS, RDU, BNA, IND, etc, will all be strong candidates for TPAC service over the course of the next decade.

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:53 pm
by cvgComair
Midwestindy wrote:
What are the chances we see CVG-LHR on BA?

http://www.travelweekly.com/Travel-News ... -US-cities
Aviation analyst Mike Boyd- "Boyd said he expects that Cincinnati will get a BA flight to London in the next two years."

His comment on CVG-LHR goes back to an article he did awhile ago that CVG would a) not get WN and they would stay at DAY and b) CVG would not get more TATL service. When WN announced CVG, he retracted that statement and put out that he predicted BA would be coming to CVG. Around this time was when the word about P&G courting DL for CVG-LHR came out, my guess is that he heard that rumor as well. I personally don't see BA coming just because of the lack of OneWorld fliers, but I don't think its impossible.

I still think DL is the best opportunity, however, I am not so sure they are willing to try it. I think it would be a good move as far as corporate contracts go, because WN is probably going to start growing more in the next few years, it would definitely be a nice incentive for companies to stick with DL. We will have to see, I would say if DL actually does some good growth at CVG this year (a new destination or two, a few added frequencies, and continued upguaging), then it seems plausible for the 2019 summer.

ADrum23 wrote:
Finally, I wonder if this enthusiasm will carrier over into the next frontier for mid-sized airports: the battle for TPAC service, which I believe will begin in earnest next decade. I don't expect it to be as intense as the current TATL service battle, as flights to Asia are longer and need a solid business case, but I expect cities such as PHX, CLT, AUS, RDU, BNA, IND, etc, will all be strong candidates for TPAC service over the course of the next decade.

It is really annoying that DL was not able to get slots for its CVG-PEK route, it would have been really interesting to see what TPAC service does to the PDEW levels. That would have been really valuable information to see how viable these TPAC routes are for midsized US markets. One advantage CVG is going to have in a decade or so when this actually becomes a possibility is that PEK/PVG have the highest demand, for most midsized cities it is NRT. However, we are decades aways from this actually becoming somewhat of a possibility.

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:23 am
by ADrum23
cvgComair wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
Finally, I wonder if this enthusiasm will carry over into the next frontier for mid-sized airports: the battle for TPAC service, which I believe will begin in earnest next decade. I don't expect it to be as intense as the current TATL service battle, as flights to Asia are longer and need a solid business case, but I expect cities such as PHX, CLT, AUS, RDU, BNA, IND, etc, will all be strong candidates for TPAC service over the course of the next decade.

It is really annoying that DL was not able to get slots for its CVG-PEK route, it would have been really interesting to see what TPAC service does to the PDEW levels. That would have been really valuable information to see how viable these TPAC routes are for midsized US markets. One advantage CVG is going to have in a decade or so when this actually becomes a possibility is that PEK/PVG have the highest demand, for most midsized cities it is NRT. However, we are decades aways from this actually becoming somewhat of a possibility.


But would not the connecting traffic at CVG have inflated the PDEW numbers? I don't think that would have been a great indicator. Still, it would have been interesting. If only the CVG DL hub remained....... they'd have TPAC service by now.

I wouldn't rule out the possibility of CVG being in the running for a TPAC flight on perhaps Hainan to PEK sometime next decade, but I agree it's not extremely likely.

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:29 am
by cvgComair
DL is doing changes on days outside the normal Saturday morning update, I cannot figure out when exactly they are doing it though.

CVG-PHL is now going 3xCR9 in March and was extended into early April, huge capacity jump on a route I was not expecting. CVG-ORD's 1xCR9, 1xCR7, 2xCRJ was pushed out until early June (was previously cut down to 4xCRJ). I am guessing both of these changes will be extended out into the summer. Given this pattern, I bet CVG-CLT/MCI/STL are next in line for larger RJ jets. The number of CRJ's is dwindling quickly, hopefully these routes can take the added capacity, the maintaining of frequency is a good sign though.

SEA is going to 5x/week for March/April/May, but is is now scheduled on the B738 until June when it goes the the 739, up from the A319 (this upgauge was previously isolated to just March/early April).

This was a continuation of the timing tweaks, I noticed many routes are moving to early afternoon and evening departures, while eliminating the late-morning flights (this is very similar to how DFW/IAH/STL already operate), examples include:
ORD: 7:15 AM, 1:10 PM, 5:00 PM, 8:15 PM
MCO: 7:00 AM, 4:13 PM, 7:20 PM
BOS: 7:15 AM, 1:35 PM, 2:57 PM, 7:50 PM
YYZ: 7:00 AM, 4:00 PM

Seems like an interesting tweak, I could either see some of these evening departures being merged and upgauged to mainline or adding another frequency in the mid-morning.

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:35 am
by DeltaRules
ADrum23 wrote:
This all being said, how much TATL service do cities such as BNA and IND actually need? With major hubs near most of these airports, connections are not that difficult. Plus, the markets aren't huge, usually a legacy flight and a LCC flight or two is sufficient for mid-sized markets like BNA, IND, MSY, RDU, etc. For example, I know I said it previously, but after thinking about it more, I doubt DL will ever launch a TATL flight from BNA to either CDG or AMS with ATL so close and BA operating their flight. Plus, the market may not be ready for two TATL flights for a while.

Another thing we need to think about is, the next time the industry experiences turmoil, will some of these flights even survive?


1) As many TATL flights as airport authorities are willing to pay airlines for. How many of the wave of flights which have come about operating out of MCI, STL, BNA, IND, CVG, CLE, and PIT aren't paid for/protected financially in some way? And it doesn't just have to be a legacy and a ULCC. Look at PIT with DL, WW, and DE.

2) They're all as good as dead if there's another 9/11-style catastrophe and/or if times get really tough for the airlines again.

cvgComair wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
What are the chances we see CVG-LHR on BA?

http://www.travelweekly.com/Travel-News ... -US-cities
Aviation analyst Mike Boyd- "Boyd said he expects that Cincinnati will get a BA flight to London in the next two years."

His comment on CVG-LHR goes back to an article he did awhile ago that CVG would a) not get WN and they would stay at DAY and b) CVG would not get more TATL service. When WN announced CVG, he retracted that statement and put out that he predicted BA would be coming to CVG. Around this time was when the word about P&G courting DL for CVG-LHR came out, my guess is that he heard that rumor as well. I personally don't see BA coming just because of the lack of OneWorld fliers, but I don't think its impossible


Boyd has also been saying CMH is going to get a TATL flight. Take it for whatever it's worth/you want it to mean, I guess, but I don't see BA doing CVG.

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:16 am
by Midwestindy
DeltaRules wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
This all being said, how much TATL service do cities such as BNA and IND actually need? With major hubs near most of these airports, connections are not that difficult. Plus, the markets aren't huge, usually a legacy flight and a LCC flight or two is sufficient for mid-sized markets like BNA, IND, MSY, RDU, etc. For example, I know I said it previously, but after thinking about it more, I doubt DL will ever launch a TATL flight from BNA to either CDG or AMS with ATL so close and BA operating their flight. Plus, the market may not be ready for two TATL flights for a while.

Another thing we need to think about is, the next time the industry experiences turmoil, will some of these flights even survive?


1) As many TATL flights as airport authorities are willing to pay airlines for. How many of the wave of flights which have come about operating out of MCI, STL, BNA, IND, CVG, CLE, and PIT aren't paid for/protected financially in some way? And it doesn't just have to be a legacy and a ULCC. Look at PIT with DL, WW, and DE.

2) They're all as good as dead if there's another 9/11-style catastrophe and/or if times get really tough for the airlines again.


1) How about DEN, BWI, PVD, BDL, RDU, and other small-large airports that have recently provided financial incentives for international flights. Incentives are common place now, it is a pay to play system, you can't just say a route will be unprofitable or unsuccessful because incentives are provided....

2) Yes, if the sky is falling those routes may not be succesful, but at the same time the airline industry would have much bigger things to worry about as well....

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:30 am
by DeltaRules
Midwestindy wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
This all being said, how much TATL service do cities such as BNA and IND actually need? With major hubs near most of these airports, connections are not that difficult. Plus, the markets aren't huge, usually a legacy flight and a LCC flight or two is sufficient for mid-sized markets like BNA, IND, MSY, RDU, etc. For example, I know I said it previously, but after thinking about it more, I doubt DL will ever launch a TATL flight from BNA to either CDG or AMS with ATL so close and BA operating their flight. Plus, the market may not be ready for two TATL flights for a while.

Another thing we need to think about is, the next time the industry experiences turmoil, will some of these flights even survive?


1) As many TATL flights as airport authorities are willing to pay airlines for. How many of the wave of flights which have come about operating out of MCI, STL, BNA, IND, CVG, CLE, and PIT aren't paid for/protected financially in some way? And it doesn't just have to be a legacy and a ULCC. Look at PIT with DL, WW, and DE.

2) They're all as good as dead if there's another 9/11-style catastrophe and/or if times get really tough for the airlines again.


1) How about DEN, BWI, PVD, BDL, RDU, and other small-large airports that have recently provided financial incentives for international flights. Incentives are common place now, it is a pay to play system, you can't just say a route will be unprofitable or unsuccessful because incentives are provided....

2) Yes, if the sky is falling those routes may not be succesful, but at the same time the airline industry would have much bigger things to worry about as well....


I'm not criticizing it at all. It's the nature of the beast and has fascinating to watch. My airport is going to have to fork over money to make it happen, too, which ties into my original point of "how many of the new Midwest/mid-sized market routes wouldn't exist without the incentives?".

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:51 am
by Shields
cvgComair wrote:
DL is doing changes on days outside the normal Saturday morning update, I cannot figure out when exactly they are doing it though.


Thanks for pointing this out, cvgComair. I will have to monitor the changes mid-week, I guess.

I noticed that CVG-RSW operates in March on a 737-800, which is a big upguage over the 717-200 or CR9 that has flown the route in years past. Good to see.

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:57 am
by ADrum23
DeltaRules wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
This all being said, how much TATL service do cities such as BNA and IND actually need? With major hubs near most of these airports, connections are not that difficult. Plus, the markets aren't huge, usually a legacy flight and a LCC flight or two is sufficient for mid-sized markets like BNA, IND, MSY, RDU, etc. For example, I know I said it previously, but after thinking about it more, I doubt DL will ever launch a TATL flight from BNA to either CDG or AMS with ATL so close and BA operating their flight. Plus, the market may not be ready for two TATL flights for a while.

Another thing we need to think about is, the next time the industry experiences turmoil, will some of these flights even survive?


1) As many TATL flights as airport authorities are willing to pay airlines for. How many of the wave of flights which have come about operating out of MCI, STL, BNA, IND, CVG, CLE, and PIT aren't paid for/protected financially in some way? And it doesn't just have to be a legacy and a ULCC. Look at PIT with DL, WW, and DE.

2) They're all as good as dead if there's another 9/11-style catastrophe and/or if times get really tough for the airlines again.


Would you rather have say, both BA (or AA) to LHR and DL to CDG with both performing ok, only to have an industry crisis and see them both cut? Or have one of those with strong yields and it has a much better chance of surviving an industry crisis (after all, RDU's London flight survived 9/11).

To use my BNA example, I'd rather have the BA to LHR flight become daily and post strong yields than have DL come in and try to compete with it with a flight to CDG. If I want to fly on DL, I can connect in ATL. As much as I'd like to see both London and Paris served on legacies from BNA, I don't want to get them both with the risk of both being cut due to a downturn. I would welcome WW, DE or something like that (and I think one or both will come pretty soon), but I'd rather BNA make its top international goal landing a TPAC flight to NRT (which will take a lot longer and be much more difficult to land).

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:02 am
by cvgComair
Shields wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
DL is doing changes on days outside the normal Saturday morning update, I cannot figure out when exactly they are doing it though.


Thanks for pointing this out, cvgComair. I will have to monitor the changes mid-week, I guess.

I noticed that CVG-RSW operates in March on a 737-800, which is a big upguage over the 717-200 or CR9 that has flown the route in years past. Good to see.

I also just noticed CVG-TPA is going on the 737-800 in April/May. This is a ton of extra Florida capacity over the last few years. The amount of DL's 737's scheduled at CVG this year is really impressive.

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:17 am
by ADrum23
cvgComair wrote:
Shields wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
DL is doing changes on days outside the normal Saturday morning update, I cannot figure out when exactly they are doing it though.


Thanks for pointing this out, cvgComair. I will have to monitor the changes mid-week, I guess.

I noticed that CVG-RSW operates in March on a 737-800, which is a big upguage over the 717-200 or CR9 that has flown the route in years past. Good to see.

I also just noticed CVG-TPA is going on the 737-800 in April/May. This is a ton of extra Florida capacity over the last few years. The amount of DL's 737's scheduled at CVG this year is really impressive.


Is CVG a base for DL 737's? I keep hearing/seeing (via the schedule) more there than elsewhere.

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:24 am
by cvgComair
ADrum23 wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
Shields wrote:

Thanks for pointing this out, cvgComair. I will have to monitor the changes mid-week, I guess.

I noticed that CVG-RSW operates in March on a 737-800, which is a big upguage over the 717-200 or CR9 that has flown the route in years past. Good to see.

I also just noticed CVG-TPA is going on the 737-800 in April/May. This is a ton of extra Florida capacity over the last few years. The amount of DL's 737's scheduled at CVG this year is really impressive.


Is CVG a base for DL 737's? I keep hearing/seeing (via the schedule) more there than elsewhere.

Yes, CVG is a 737 base for DL. They recently closed the MD base and expanded the 737 base, that is why so many 737’s are being scheduled now.

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:28 am
by SumChristianus
The cumulative Delta growth in the Midwest has been impressive over the past year. Is it economically growing better than the rest of the country? Or maybe the coasts are saturated with service?
DTW, CVG, and IND have all seen large announcements/increases over the past year.
I never thought some of those CVG CRJ routes, MCI, PHL, MKE, CLT, ORD, etc., would be kept, let alone upgauged. CVG and the Midwest appears to no longer be a capacity mine for SEA, NYC, and LAX, with their increases around here, the Midwest now seems strategic for them.

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:34 am
by StuckinCMHland
DeltaRules wrote:
StuckinCMHland wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
To be fair, if DL is really wanting to grow MCO into an operation with a lot of connection opportunities to places like BSB, FOR, GRU, MEX and other places like that, then I see MCO-CMH being a daily CRJ-700 easily.


I understand your point and I like MCO. But last summer we flew CMH-MCO nonstop on an E170 and the plane was not full on either leg of the trip. It had a lot of people heading to/returning from 'rat world' as some locals call it, but it wasn't full. What is sad is that it was actually cheaper to fly to MCO and rent a car there for DAB instead of flying through ATL to DAB and renting a car there. DAB has such a nice terminal and airport but nobody wants to fly there or make it cheap enough for people to fly there.


That's interesting to hear. I do CMH-DAB a few times a year and have found $200-250 r/t to be the norm on DL outside of busier times (Spring Break, the Daytona 500/Coke Zero 400, Bike Week, etc). Up until about 2009, we always flew into MCO or JAX (or, in one case, LCK-SFB on Pan Am v3) to get to Daytona because DAB was $400+ r/t on a good day even with CO competing against them, but the fares dropped after the recession and haven't gone back up.

AA (and US before) are typically out of line via CLT, though. (Another reason we need B6 back at CMH- I'd consider a JFK connection if the price were right.)

jplatts wrote:
G4 already has its 2nd largest operating base at SFB, and SFB is 40 miles from Daytona Beach whereas MCO is 70 miles from Daytona Beach. In addition, Greater Charlotte is in an market that already has nonstop service to both DAB and SFB as AA operates CLT-DAB nonstop service and G4 operates USA-SFB nonstop service. G4 does serve SWF nonstop from SFB and B6 does serve JFK nonstop from DAB, but SWF is in the northernmost part of the NYC metro area and more than 65 miles from Midtown Manhattan, whereas JFK is one of the main NYC airports (along with LGA and EWR). ATL has no nonstop service from SFB on any airline, and G4 does not serve any airports in the Atlanta metropolitan area.

G4 already has nonstop service to SFB from many markets in Ohio, other Midwestern states, the Northeast, and the Southeast that do not have any nonstop service to DAB, including CVG, DAY, LCK, CLE, IND, SDF, and PIT. There is less need for G4 to serve DAB with SFB being close enough to Daytona Beach, with Daytona Beach being within a 1 hour drive of SFB, and with SFB being located on the North side of the Orlando area. In addition, the total travel time to Daytona Beach from Ohio is usually at least 1 hour shorter on the G4 nonstops to SFB than on connecting flights to DAB through ATL on DL or CLT on AA.


When did anybody ever suggest G4 was going to start DAB? I would do cartwheels for an LCK-DAB nonstop (and, really, Skybus probably should've tried CMH-DAB to better link Jacksonville and Orlando to their network), but it's never going to happen.

I think there was a bit of funding to help B6 start JFK-DAB but it sounds like it's doing fine. New York was the busiest unserved market from Daytona and, in talking to US agents there one time, apparently both they and DL have noticed a dip in traffic to New York as a result.



Thanks for all the kind replies. As of now for CMH/DAB the basic economy fare for a very inconvenient flight is $228. Regular Y (main cabin) is in the mid $300 range and up. A flight that works for me is $400, and that price holds goign through ATL or DTW. .

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:39 am
by StuckinCMHland
jplatts wrote:
StuckinCMHland wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
To be fair, if DL is really wanting to grow MCO into an operation with a lot of connection opportunities to places like BSB, FOR, GRU, MEX and other places like that, then I see MCO-CMH being a daily CRJ-700 easily.


I understand your point and I like MCO. But last summer we flew CMH-MCO nonstop on an E170 and the plane was not full on either leg of the trip. It had a lot of people heading to/returning from 'rat world' as some locals call it, but it wasn't full. What is sad is that it was actually cheaper to fly to MCO and rent a car there for DAB instead of flying through ATL to DAB and renting a car there. DAB has such a nice terminal and airport but nobody wants to fly there or make it cheap enough for people to fly there.


G4 already has its 2nd largest operating base at SFB, and SFB is 40 miles from Daytona Beach whereas MCO is 70 miles from Daytona Beach. In addition, Greater Charlotte is in an market that already has nonstop service to both DAB and SFB as AA operates CLT-DAB nonstop service and G4 operates USA-SFB nonstop service. G4 does serve SWF nonstop from SFB and B6 does serve JFK nonstop from DAB, but SWF is in the northernmost part of the NYC metro area and more than 65 miles from Midtown Manhattan, whereas JFK is one of the main NYC airports (along with LGA and EWR). ATL has no nonstop service from SFB on any airline, and G4 does not serve any airports in the Atlanta metropolitan area.

G4 already has nonstop service to SFB from many markets in Ohio, other Midwestern states, the Northeast, and the Southeast that do not have any nonstop service to DAB, including CVG, DAY, LCK, CLE, IND, SDF, and PIT. There is less need for G4 to serve DAB with SFB being close enough to Daytona Beach, with Daytona Beach being within a 1 hour drive of SFB, and with SFB being located on the North side of the Orlando area. In addition, the total travel time to Daytona Beach from Ohio is usually at least 1 hour shorter on the G4 nonstops to SFB than on connecting flights to DAB through ATL on DL or CLT on AA.


Sir,

With all due respect I wouldn't fly G4 to SFB unless they landed an A320 or a Mad Dog on my street in front of my house and picked me up. :bouncy:
I'd fly to MCO via LHR if I had to before G4 LCK-SFB.

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:46 am
by Midwestindy
SumChristianus wrote:
The cumulative Delta growth in the Midwest has been impressive over the past year. Is it economically growing better than the rest of the country? Or maybe the coasts are saturated with service?
DTW, CVG, and IND have all seen large announcements/increases over the past year.
I never thought some of those CVG CRJ routes, MCI, PHL, MKE, CLT, ORD, etc., would be kept, let alone upgauged. CVG and the Midwest appears to no longer be a capacity mine for SEA, NYC, and LAX, with their increases around here, the Midwest now seems strategic for them.


https://seekingalpha.com/article/411498 ... r-benefits
I don't think it is midwest specific, DL is upguaging system-wide, its part of the strategy they have been talking about a lot in recent months

Pg 24, 25, 41: http://s1.q4cdn.com/231238688/files/doc ... y_2017.pdf
"Expected to drive $200 million or ~2% fuel efficiency gain – replacing 747s, 50-seaters and MD88/90s with fuel efficient A350s, A321s and 737-900s"
"Upgauging has driven nearly $1 billion in expense savings over past four years from increased operational efficiency, ~$300 million savings expected for 2018"
"Average seats per departure increasing by 5% between 2017 and 2020"

As I mentioned yesterday
Midwestindy wrote:
This is DL's strategy moving forward
50 seaters going away.
76 seaters taking over 50 seater flying, with slightly less frequency.
110 seaters (CS) taking over 76 seater flying, with slightly less frequency.
160 seaters taking over 110 (717) and 149 (MD88) seater flying
180-90 seaters taking over 160 seater flying.

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:09 am
by marvinanderson1
I believe that it is time that CVG has its own discussion forum. I would estimate that 75 per cent of the Ohio discussion forum is CVG centered. And that is not a negative but a positive observation. CVG truly has a lot going for itself at this time with DL, F9,and G4 very active in this market. Just my observation.

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:14 am
by Jshank83
marvinanderson1 wrote:
I believe that it is time that CVG has its own discussion forum. I would estimate that 75 per cent of the Ohio discussion forum is CVG centered. And that is not a negative but a positive observation. CVG truly has a lot going for itself at this time with DL, F9,and G4 very active in this market. Just my observation.


I actually was going to say this same thing the other day but never got around to it. I think CVG and CMH should just get their own threads. They are both big enough and get enough chatter on here for their own. Rest of Ohio can be smaller airports.

Re: The rest of Ohio - 2018

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:15 am
by DeltaRules
Jshank83 wrote:
marvinanderson1 wrote:
I believe that it is time that CVG has its own discussion forum. I would estimate that 75 per cent of the Ohio discussion forum is CVG centered. And that is not a negative but a positive observation. CVG truly has a lot going for itself at this time with DL, F9,and G4 very active in this market. Just my observation.


I actually was going to say this same thing the other day but never got around to it. I think CVG and CMH should just get their own threads. They are both big enough and get enough chatter on here for their own. Rest of Ohio can be smaller airports.
The flip side is the conversation regarding the two bigger airports keeps the one thread going. There are times where the thread goes idle for several days, only to be bumped by conversation about one airport, which seems to stimulate conversation about the others. The first couple Ohio threads I tried to get going petered out and got locked- it was only on like the third try where they stuck..

Also, somebody tried to start a dedicated Cincinnati thread once already and all the conversation came back here anyway.