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S0Y
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:12 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
VS4ever wrote:
That morning flight is going to get seriously interesting once VS join the fray with their version of it. If it truly is running low loads then having double the capacity in terms of flights is not going to make it any better. The only thing I can think of is that DL/VS have pulled in some contracts that require that flight to be set up, it just is an oddball as to why now to start it after all these years with BA being the sole runner on the timing.


What is the point of a morning flight, even for contract purposes? You lose valuable day time sitting in that plane.


No jet lag. With fewer and fewer companies' being prepared to pay Biz for sub-8hr flights, there is an advantage to taking the morning flight, getting a good nights sleep in a real bed and being all set to go the next morning. Arguably you would be better ready for work than the person who managed to get 3-4hrs sleep on the overnight flight in J
 
airbazar
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:49 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
VS4ever wrote:
That morning flight is going to get seriously interesting once VS join the fray with their version of it. If it truly is running low loads then having double the capacity in terms of flights is not going to make it any better. The only thing I can think of is that DL/VS have pulled in some contracts that require that flight to be set up, it just is an oddball as to why now to start it after all these years with BA being the sole runner on the timing.


What is the point of a morning flight, even for contract purposes? You lose valuable day time sitting in that plane.


I prefer the morning flight over the night flight and having just arrived from SFO today on a red-eye I was reminded once again how much I really hate red-eyes :)

VS4ever wrote:
Well clearly some folks are using it, even if it's not in the droves that are utilizing the redeye's.

Most people have this backwards. Most passengers fly the red-eyes because that's when airlines make the most seats available, not the other way around.
Airlines have no choice but to operate most of their flights as red-eyes in order to fit into their hub schedules. A morning eastbound TATL departure offers very few connections on either end of the Atlantic. That is the reason why there are so few daytime flights. It has nothing to do with this a-net myth that "premium customers prefer red-eyes".
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:04 pm

I don't see the problem: I make myself comfy in my flat-bed seat, have a juice, pop a pill and snooze away. On arrival I have breakfast and go where I need to go. Feeling great! :trophy:
 
airbazar
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:03 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
I don't see the problem: I make myself comfy in my flat-bed seat, have a juice, pop a pill and snooze away. On arrival I have breakfast and go where I need to go. Feeling great! :trophy:

Maybe not for you but ~90% of the passengers don't have a flat bed seat. But even with a flat bed, on a BOS-LHR flight you get at most 4 hours of uninterrupted sleep.
Here's another a-net myth: All business fliers fly in J or even Y+. A lot of companies I know don't pay for J on TATL flights from Boston. They're not considered long enough. Personally I much prefer the day flight and getting a full night sleep in a hotel bed.
 
johhn14
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:47 pm

Absolutely true.

I fly an even shorter hop to Shannon periodically and typically will fly out on Saturday night so I can use Sunday to acclimate. Far from ideal. And while I could technically justify J and fly out the Sunday night red eye it’s such a short hop that it’s hardly worth it in my experience. Just creates a day of misery in the office!
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:53 pm

airbazar wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
I don't see the problem: I make myself comfy in my flat-bed seat, have a juice, pop a pill and snooze away. On arrival I have breakfast and go where I need to go. Feeling great! :trophy:

Maybe not for you but ~90% of the passengers don't have a flat bed seat. But even with a flat bed, on a BOS-LHR flight you get at most 4 hours of uninterrupted sleep.
Here's another a-net myth: All business fliers fly in J or even Y+. A lot of companies I know don't pay for J on TATL flights from Boston. They're not considered long enough. Personally I much prefer the day flight and getting a full night sleep in a hotel bed.


So you don’t fly red-eyes West Coast - East Coast either?
I booked Mint red-eye SEA-BOS...very much looking forward to it :)
 
RobertS975
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:00 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
VS4ever wrote:
That morning flight is going to get seriously interesting once VS join the fray with their version of it. If it truly is running low loads then having double the capacity in terms of flights is not going to make it any better. The only thing I can think of is that DL/VS have pulled in some contracts that require that flight to be set up, it just is an oddball as to why now to start it after all these years with BA being the sole runner on the timing.


What is the point of a morning flight, even for contract purposes? You lose valuable day time sitting in that plane.


On these short overnight flights, I lose the next day, more or less. At least the evening arrival guarantees that your hotel room will be ready! An AM departure would be my preference!
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:33 pm

RobertS975 wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
VS4ever wrote:
That morning flight is going to get seriously interesting once VS join the fray with their version of it. If it truly is running low loads then having double the capacity in terms of flights is not going to make it any better. The only thing I can think of is that DL/VS have pulled in some contracts that require that flight to be set up, it just is an oddball as to why now to start it after all these years with BA being the sole runner on the timing.


What is the point of a morning flight, even for contract purposes? You lose valuable day time sitting in that plane.


On these short overnight flights, I lose the next day, more or less. At least the evening arrival guarantees that your hotel room will be ready! An AM departure would be my preference!


I get your point, but I rather maximize my vacation time :)
 
B752OS
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:26 pm

airbazar wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
I don't see the problem: I make myself comfy in my flat-bed seat, have a juice, pop a pill and snooze away. On arrival I have breakfast and go where I need to go. Feeling great! :trophy:

Maybe not for you but ~90% of the passengers don't have a flat bed seat. But even with a flat bed, on a BOS-LHR flight you get at most 4 hours of uninterrupted sleep.
Here's another a-net myth: All business fliers fly in J or even Y+. A lot of companies I know don't pay for J on TATL flights from Boston. They're not considered long enough. Personally I much prefer the day flight and getting a full night sleep in a hotel bed.


If I were traveling for work, I would agree that the daylight flight to say LHR would be preferable. Get a full night's rest in an actual bed. If I am traveling for leisure I am taking the overnight flight 10 /10. Leave Boston early evening which means I don't need to take the day from work, I can work a half or 3/4 day and then head over to Logan for the flight.
 
airbazar
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:45 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
So you don’t fly red-eyes West Coast - East Coast either?
I booked Mint red-eye SEA-BOS...very much looking forward to it :)

I don't always have a choice. If I'm paying for it I take whatever is cheaper. If I'm traveling for work and the companyis paying, I absolutely don't take the red-eye.
I once shelled out for domestic F on a red-eye from SFO to BOS. That was the also the last time. For me, the traditional domestic F is not worth the money. I'm only 5'10" at 160lbs. I have no problem with a Y seat width or pitch. The only differentiator that matters to me is the seat recline and a traditional domestic F seat doesn't recline enough to justify its price. I have yet to try a lie-flat domestic First. I've seen Mint fares as low as $400 each way and I might be inclined to take it when i have a chance but I'm a UA FF so it's very rare for me to fly anyone other than UA out of BOS.
 
cloudboy
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:16 pm

Dieuwer wrote:

I get your point, but I rather maximize my vacation time :)


I have a hard enough time sleeping in hotels. Forget about sleeping on a plane, even if it is a flat bed. I don't gain any more vacation time because I am dragging so much the day after a red-eye that it essentially becomes useless.

I think the big problem is that a lot of people don't realize that there even are daytime flights to the UK. Unfortunately airlines don't do a good job of advertising this. And even worse, they don't make it easy for passengers to book a flight to BOS or JFK the evening before, sleep in a real hotel room, and then fly transtalantic the following morning. I suppose they think it takes away from their business class customers who would do a regular seat if they weren't going to try and sleep on the plane.
"Six becoming three doesn't create more Americans that want to fly." -Adam Pilarski
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:51 pm

cloudboy wrote:
I think the big problem is that a lot of people don't realize that there even are daytime flights to the UK. Unfortunately airlines don't do a good job of advertising this. And even worse, they don't make it easy for passengers to book a flight to BOS or JFK the evening before, sleep in a real hotel room, and then fly transtalantic the following morning. I suppose they think it takes away from their business class customers who would do a regular seat if they weren't going to try and sleep on the plane.


I think there ought to be a daytime flight to DUB and KEF. Those flight distances are so short (even shorter than TCON *), you do feel wasted on arrival.

* BOS-LAX = 2,611 mi, BOS-KEF = 2,413 mi
 
airbazar
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:18 pm

cloudboy wrote:
I think the big problem is that a lot of people don't realize that there even are daytime flights to the UK. Unfortunately airlines don't do a good job of advertising this. And even worse, they don't make it easy for passengers to book a flight to BOS or JFK the evening before, sleep in a real hotel room, and then fly transtalantic the following morning. I suppose they think it takes away from their business class customers who would do a regular seat if they weren't going to try and sleep on the plane.

This to me is a little confusing. On one hand, a eastbound daytime must be more expensive for the airline because of the long RON time for the aircraft so you'd think that airlines would want to sell this flight first. On the other hand, the day time flight always seems more expensive than the overnight ones which leads me to believe that there is more demand for it than most of us believe and therefore advertising it is not really necessary.
My amateurish suspicion is that the yields on the daytime flight are higher than those on the red-eye because the red-eyes carry a lot of connecting passengers which inherently provide lower yields but they need those premium seats on the red-eye to justify the lower yields from the connecting traffic so airlines need to get the balance right and not add too much capacity to the morning departure.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:31 pm

I heard a rumor recently that DL is planning on officially making BOS a hub in 2019, anyone heard anything about this?
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NickolayAv
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:36 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
I heard a rumor recently that DL is planning on officially making BOS a hub in 2019, anyone heard anything about this?

Would make sense with their ever growing presence. Although, I really don't think it will change their operations at BOS really, other than continuing to grow.
"If you want to be a millionaire, start with a billion dollars and launch a new airline"-Richard Branson
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:40 pm

NickolayAv wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
I heard a rumor recently that DL is planning on officially making BOS a hub in 2019, anyone heard anything about this?

Would make sense with their ever growing presence. Although, I really don't think it will change their operations at BOS really, other than continuing to grow.


When do they get access to additional gates?
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
iyerhari
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:44 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
NickolayAv wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
I heard a rumor recently that DL is planning on officially making BOS a hub in 2019, anyone heard anything about this?

Would make sense with their ever growing presence. Although, I really don't think it will change their operations at BOS really, other than continuing to grow.


When do they get access to additional gates?

Sometime May-2019. DL calls BOS as their focus city - it is fairly certain they will be adding new destinations once they get the gates - which means Terminal A all to themselves with the exception of WS.
 
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NickolayAv
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:58 pm

iyerhari wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
NickolayAv wrote:
Would make sense with their ever growing presence. Although, I really don't think it will change their operations at BOS really, other than continuing to grow.


When do they get access to additional gates?

Sometime May-2019. DL calls BOS as their focus city - it is fairly certain they will be adding new destinations once they get the gates - which means Terminal A all to themselves with the exception of WS.

I really hope some of them are intl. destinations. It would help them further secure their position as a BOS hub. In general I find the definition of hub vs. focus city very vague though, B6 calls BOS a focus city even though it has some of its largest ops from here.
"If you want to be a millionaire, start with a billion dollars and launch a new airline"-Richard Branson
 
airbazar
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:18 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
I heard a rumor recently that DL is planning on officially making BOS a hub in 2019, anyone heard anything about this?

They called it a hub officially in a recent past when their presence was smaller than what it is today so not surprised that they will start calling it a hub again.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:25 pm

airbazar wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
I heard a rumor recently that DL is planning on officially making BOS a hub in 2019, anyone heard anything about this?

They called it a hub officially in a recent past when their presence was smaller than what it is today so not surprised that they will start calling it a hub again.


I think this time though it will come with some sort of expansion as well, considering they are gaining more gates than they previously had
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
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adamh8297
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:51 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
cloudboy wrote:
I think the big problem is that a lot of people don't realize that there even are daytime flights to the UK. Unfortunately airlines don't do a good job of advertising this. And even worse, they don't make it easy for passengers to book a flight to BOS or JFK the evening before, sleep in a real hotel room, and then fly transtalantic the following morning. I suppose they think it takes away from their business class customers who would do a regular seat if they weren't going to try and sleep on the plane.


I think there ought to be a daytime flight to DUB and KEF. Those flight distances are so short (even shorter than TCON *), you do feel wasted on arrival.

* BOS-LAX = 2,611 mi, BOS-KEF = 2,413 mi


There used to be a 2:30 pm departure to KEF in the summer arriving at 11:30pm but they got rid of it this year.
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AF, AM, BA, B6, CA, CO, CX, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, OU, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WE, WN

2019: CX BOS-HKG, WE HKG-HKT, CA HKT-PEK-EWR, B6 EWR-BOS
 
iyerhari
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:15 pm

NickolayAv wrote:
iyerhari wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

When do they get access to additional gates?

Sometime May-2019. DL calls BOS as their focus city - it is fairly certain they will be adding new destinations once they get the gates - which means Terminal A all to themselves with the exception of WS.

I really hope some of them are intl. destinations. It would help them further secure their position as a BOS hub. In general I find the definition of hub vs. focus city very vague though, B6 calls BOS a focus city even though it has some of its largest ops from here.

I think that it is dependent on what airlines like to call them. WN does not call any station as their hub although we can say STL, MDW, BWI etc. can be called their hub from a traditional airline standpoint. IMO, BOS should be an AA focus city as there are decent connections from BOS on OW carriers. I personally know of people from PHL, PIT etc. use BOS for Asia connections to HKG, NRT, GRU etc.. But AA does not like BOS and does not have any label :) BOS may never ever be ATL or DTW or MSP but a solid O&D station with some connections.
 
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NickolayAv
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:26 pm

iyerhari wrote:
NickolayAv wrote:
iyerhari wrote:
Sometime May-2019. DL calls BOS as their focus city - it is fairly certain they will be adding new destinations once they get the gates - which means Terminal A all to themselves with the exception of WS.

I really hope some of them are intl. destinations. It would help them further secure their position as a BOS hub. In general I find the definition of hub vs. focus city very vague though, B6 calls BOS a focus city even though it has some of its largest ops from here.

I think that it is dependent on what airlines like to call them. WN does not call any station as their hub although we can say STL, MDW, BWI etc. can be called their hub from a traditional airline standpoint. IMO, BOS should be an AA focus city as there are decent connections from BOS on OW carriers. I personally know of people from PHL, PIT etc. use BOS for Asia connections to HKG, NRT, GRU etc.. But AA does not like BOS and does not have any label :) BOS may never ever be ATL or DTW or MSP but a solid O&D station with some connections.

I agree, but I feel as if B6 and DL are now running an operation that isn't O/D oriented and is continuously improving connections to make BOS more of a connecting hub for both airlines, both using their own metal and codeshare metal.
"If you want to be a millionaire, start with a billion dollars and launch a new airline"-Richard Branson
 
iyerhari
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:35 pm

Interesting new tenants coming to B side -
https://www.google.com/amp/s/boston.eat ... oming-soon

Santarpio - wow!

Finally some decent dining options outside of Legal Sea Foods..,
 
ADrum23
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:54 pm

NickolayAv wrote:
iyerhari wrote:
NickolayAv wrote:
I really hope some of them are intl. destinations. It would help them further secure their position as a BOS hub. In general I find the definition of hub vs. focus city very vague though, B6 calls BOS a focus city even though it has some of its largest ops from here.

I think that it is dependent on what airlines like to call them. WN does not call any station as their hub although we can say STL, MDW, BWI etc. can be called their hub from a traditional airline standpoint. IMO, BOS should be an AA focus city as there are decent connections from BOS on OW carriers. I personally know of people from PHL, PIT etc. use BOS for Asia connections to HKG, NRT, GRU etc.. But AA does not like BOS and does not have any label :) BOS may never ever be ATL or DTW or MSP but a solid O&D station with some connections.

I agree, but I feel as if B6 and DL are now running an operation that isn't O/D oriented and is continuously improving connections to make BOS more of a connecting hub for both airlines, both using their own metal and codeshare metal.


What would be the point of making BOS a full connecting hub vs a primarily O&D focus city
like it is now? Just curious.

To relieve JFK?
 
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chrisnh
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:22 am

airbazar wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
I heard a rumor recently that DL is planning on officially making BOS a hub in 2019, anyone heard anything about this?

They called it a hub officially in a recent past when their presence was smaller than what it is today so not surprised that they will start calling it a hub again.


I think if a good number of people step off a plane in Boston just to get on another one, it’s a hub. If they get off the plane and go to the street, it’s a focus city. DL has a lot of the former; B6 is nothing but the latter.
 
johhn14
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:40 am

chrisnh wrote:
airbazar wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
I heard a rumor recently that DL is planning on officially making BOS a hub in 2019, anyone heard anything about this?

They called it a hub officially in a recent past when their presence was smaller than what it is today so not surprised that they will start calling it a hub again.


I think if a good number of people step off a plane in Boston just to get on another one, it’s a hub. If they get off the plane and go to the street, it’s a focus city. DL has a lot of the former; B6 is nothing but the latter.

Except for all the B6 partnerships. I wonder what percent of passengers landing in Boston transit to/from a B6 flight to/from an international carrier. They don’t carry the load, but they are very much connecting spokes through BOS
 
airbazar
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Sat Aug 04, 2018 2:17 am

Midwestindy wrote:
airbazar wrote:
They called it a hub officially in a recent past when their presence was smaller than what it is today so not surprised that they will start calling it a hub again.

I think this time though it will come with some sort of expansion as well, considering they are gaining more gates than they previously had

That expansion has been happening since the end of Ch.11 and will continue heavily when they get the rest of their gates back (which they had to give up during Ch.11). I'm not sure the hub label has anything to do with it. Like I said, it was called a hub before when their operation was smaller. I don't work in the airline industry but I suspect that the hub vs. focus city has little to do with actual volume of flights and more to do with administrative economics. What I'm saying is this: Does the station label have any implication on pay grades and contract rates? Is it a bigger privilege (and thus higher pay), to work in a hub vs a focus city?
NickolayAv wrote:
I agree, but I feel as if B6 and DL are now running an operation that isn't O/D oriented and is continuously improving connections to make BOS more of a connecting hub for both airlines, both using their own metal and codeshare metal.

Thank you. I've been saying that for about 5 years now but nearly had my head chopped off for suggesting that BOS was a hub (in that context) :)
iyerhari wrote:
Finally some decent dining options outside of Legal Sea Foods..,

Personal taste I guess :)
Myself I can't find any redeeming quality in Legal Seafoods. Their dishes are way overdone to the point where you can't taste any of the actual seafood. I'm of the opinion that a good seafood dish is supposed to be super light and simple.
chrisnh wrote:
I think if a good number of people step off a plane in Boston just to get on another one, it’s a hub. If they get off the plane and go to the street, it’s a focus city. DL has a lot of the former; B6 is nothing but the latter.

I disagree with the B6 characterization. I don't think Massport would have gone thru the trouble of building an airside connector between the intl terminal and B6 if that was the case. On a personal note, when my co-workers in RDU travel to India for business they usually fly B6 to BOS and then BA or AF to India. Yes they do the 2 stop thing because the 1-stop RDU-Europe-India is significantly more expensive and my company has a strict policy on fares.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Sat Aug 04, 2018 2:25 am

airbazar wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
airbazar wrote:
They called it a hub officially in a recent past when their presence was smaller than what it is today so not surprised that they will start calling it a hub again.

I think this time though it will come with some sort of expansion as well, considering they are gaining more gates than they previously had

That expansion has been happening since the end of Ch.11 and will continue heavily when they get the rest of their gates back (which they had to give up during Ch.11). I'm not sure the hub label has anything to do with it. Like I said, it was called a hub before when their operation was smaller. I don't work in the airline industry but I suspect that the hub vs. focus city has little to do with actual volume of flights and more to do with administrative economics. What I'm saying is this: Does the station label have any implication on pay grades and contract rates? Is it a bigger privilege (and thus higher pay), to work in a hub vs a focus city?


I'm saying the announcement of Focus City to Hub status could/would correlate with a large announcement of new flights
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
RobertS975
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Sat Aug 04, 2018 2:45 am

DL has not even have a pilot base at BOS for many years. There used to be a sizeable number of DL pilots residing in New England, most starting their careers with Northeast Airlines. By now, almost every one has retired. BOS wouldn't be an ideal true hub because of the separation of international arrivals from domestic connections. Also, terminal A is a clumsy layout in terms of aircraft movement with frequent taxiway congestion and push back conflicts.

Terminal A adds 5-10 minutes to each flight when compared to the operation at terminal C. In is no mystery why WN, in the interest of fast turns, would like to get out of terminal A.

That said, with the addition of the WN gates, DL can resume the flights it formerly had.... LAS and real service to various FL stations like PBI, RSW, FLL etc... not once a day, or weekend service like now.
 
33lspotter
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Sat Aug 04, 2018 2:55 am

iyerhari wrote:
Interesting new tenants coming to B side -
https://www.google.com/amp/s/boston.eat ... oming-soon

Santarpio - wow!

Finally some decent dining options outside of Legal Sea Foods..,


:bigthumbsup:

Most excited about Santarpio’s, but Sully’s is another good one.
 
airbazar
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:39 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
airbazar wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
I think this time though it will come with some sort of expansion as well, considering they are gaining more gates than they previously had

That expansion has been happening since the end of Ch.11 and will continue heavily when they get the rest of their gates back (which they had to give up during Ch.11). I'm not sure the hub label has anything to do with it. Like I said, it was called a hub before when their operation was smaller. I don't work in the airline industry but I suspect that the hub vs. focus city has little to do with actual volume of flights and more to do with administrative economics. What I'm saying is this: Does the station label have any implication on pay grades and contract rates? Is it a bigger privilege (and thus higher pay), to work in a hub vs a focus city?


I'm saying the announcement of Focus City to Hub status could/would correlate with a large announcement of new flights


No reason for "could/would". It absolutely does :)
DL announced their planned expansion for Boston at the end of 2017, and now they are categorizing BOS as a hub. I think the two are related which is why to me this move was expected.
Another factor that has fallen off the radar is Amazon's HQ2. IMO, of all the final candidates Boston would benefit Delta the most so it wouldn't surprise me if DL is raising its profile in BOS in order to help Boston win the HQ2 bid. Why do I say that? Of all the final cities we have LAX, ATL, BOS, RDU, and AUS as the DL hub/focus cities. LAX and ATL are probably already as tapped out as they can get for air connections. That leaves out BOS, RDU, and AUS as cities with significant growth potential. Is it a coincidence that this year Delta has "upgraded" RDU and AUS to Focus City, and BOS to Hub? I don't think so. They are doing their part so one of these cities gets HQ2.
 
ADrum23
Posts: 1789
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:54 pm

Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:56 pm

airbazar wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
airbazar wrote:
That expansion has been happening since the end of Ch.11 and will continue heavily when they get the rest of their gates back (which they had to give up during Ch.11). I'm not sure the hub label has anything to do with it. Like I said, it was called a hub before when their operation was smaller. I don't work in the airline industry but I suspect that the hub vs. focus city has little to do with actual volume of flights and more to do with administrative economics. What I'm saying is this: Does the station label have any implication on pay grades and contract rates? Is it a bigger privilege (and thus higher pay), to work in a hub vs a focus city?


I'm saying the announcement of Focus City to Hub status could/would correlate with a large announcement of new flights


No reason for "could/would". It absolutely does :)
DL announced their planned expansion for Boston at the end of 2017, and now they are categorizing BOS as a hub. I think the two are related which is why to me this move was expected.
Another factor that has fallen off the radar is Amazon's HQ2. IMO, of all the final candidates Boston would benefit Delta the most so it wouldn't surprise me if DL is raising its profile in BOS in order to help Boston win the HQ2 bid. Why do I say that? Of all the final cities we have LAX, ATL, BOS, RDU, and AUS as the DL hub/focus cities. LAX and ATL are probably already as tapped out as they can get for air connections. That leaves out BOS, RDU, and AUS as cities with significant growth potential. Is it a coincidence that this year Delta has "upgraded" RDU and AUS to Focus City, and BOS to Hub? I don't think so. They are doing their part so one of these cities gets HQ2.


1. I do not believe DL is categorizing BOS as a hub as of now, it is still a focus city according to the investor day presentation last December. Many news articles also label it as such.

2. AUS is not yet a DL focus city, it is still a spoke as they only fly to hubs/focus cities. DL's potential growth in AUS has nothing to do with HQ2, but rather DL filling their Texas gap, which is the biggest hole in their network.

3. RDU was classified as a DL focus city back in 2016, long before HQ2 was even announced. It has nothing to do with HQ2 and is about filling a void at RDU (a lucrative tech market) that other carriers left behind.

4. What purpose would DL upgrading BOS to full hub status serve? Serious question, and I'm not trying to downplay BOS here, I'm just curious at people's thoughts on this. Would BOS become an official secondary TATL gateway to relieve JFK?
 
clrd4t8koff
Posts: 1659
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:57 am

Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:32 pm

ADrum23 wrote:
airbazar wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

I'm saying the announcement of Focus City to Hub status could/would correlate with a large announcement of new flights


No reason for "could/would". It absolutely does :)
DL announced their planned expansion for Boston at the end of 2017, and now they are categorizing BOS as a hub. I think the two are related which is why to me this move was expected.
Another factor that has fallen off the radar is Amazon's HQ2. IMO, of all the final candidates Boston would benefit Delta the most so it wouldn't surprise me if DL is raising its profile in BOS in order to help Boston win the HQ2 bid. Why do I say that? Of all the final cities we have LAX, ATL, BOS, RDU, and AUS as the DL hub/focus cities. LAX and ATL are probably already as tapped out as they can get for air connections. That leaves out BOS, RDU, and AUS as cities with significant growth potential. Is it a coincidence that this year Delta has "upgraded" RDU and AUS to Focus City, and BOS to Hub? I don't think so. They are doing their part so one of these cities gets HQ2.


1. I do not believe DL is categorizing BOS as a hub as of now, it is still a focus city according to the investor day presentation last December. Many news articles also label it as such.

2. AUS is not yet a DL focus city, it is still a spoke as they only fly to hubs/focus cities. DL's potential growth in AUS has nothing to do with HQ2, but rather DL filling their Texas gap, which is the biggest hole in their network.

3. RDU was classified as a DL focus city back in 2016, long before HQ2 was even announced. It has nothing to do with HQ2 and is about filling a void at RDU (a lucrative tech market) that other carriers left behind.

4. What purpose would DL upgrading BOS to full hub status serve? Serious question, and I'm not trying to downplay BOS here, I'm just curious at people's thoughts on this. Would BOS become an official secondary TATL gateway to relieve JFK?


Last I heard Amazon hadn’t selected an HQ2 location. Did I miss something or do you have inside information? Curious why you bring up HQ2 when talking about AUS & RDU?

DL has called BOS a hub since 2016 and even says so themselves on their website:

https://news.delta.com/boston-logan-int ... -airport-0
 
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NickolayAv
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:42 pm

ADrum23 wrote:
4. What purpose would DL upgrading BOS to full hub status serve? Serious question, and I'm not trying to downplay BOS here, I'm just curious at people's thoughts on this. Would BOS become an official secondary TATL gateway to relieve JFK?

Considering BOS geographical location (perfect for TATL connections), DLs dominance in TATL flights, and JFK being near capacity for DL at the moment, it is reasonable to build another connecting TATL hub. Also, in recent years I think it is becoming more and more evident that BOS has a lot more potential than many people thought, and BOS as a city is booming right now, it's growing in population and financially. This makes Boston a more lucrative O/D market, and with BOS lacking a hub from one of the US3 that could provide a global network from BOS I think it makes perfect sense why DL would want to grow in BOS. With that in mind, although getting all of Terminal A will help, if DL wants to expand into a hub in BOS, some intl. destinations need to be added, but ultimately it will be hard for DL to really connect intl. connections in BOS the way it is now, without an airside connector.
"If you want to be a millionaire, start with a billion dollars and launch a new airline"-Richard Branson
 
clrd4t8koff
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:47 pm

VS4ever wrote:
33lspotter wrote:
VS4ever wrote:
Part 6a – Northern Europe



This was the section I was most looking forward to. Well done!

Couple of aircraft notes: BA, to my knowledge, has not brought the 788 — only the 789 — to BOS. Could be wrong! SK does indeed fly the 333, not the 332.

More on BA: I think BA's "worse" performance with 744s is perhaps tied to it being consistently on the morning flight (which anecdotally I've observed to be "less full" than its evening counterparts) for a five-month stretch. That is just my hypothesis, and I did see your point about not having individual flight information. Still, just a thought. Interesting that the Whalebus itself hasn't hurt load factors — I did fly BOS-LHR on it once and it did seem to be pretty packed.


Thank you, I am not surprised there are inconsistencies, which is why I usually put a disclaimer up that the data is only as good as that loaded by the airlines themselves/DOT and as we have seen from EI and QR, some of them just phone it in, others do a bang up job of keeping it up to date.

That morning flight is going to get seriously interesting once VS join the fray with their version of it. If it truly is running low loads then having double the capacity in terms of flights is not going to make it any better. The only thing I can think of is that DL/VS have pulled in some contracts that require that flight to be set up, it just is an oddball as to why now to start it after all these years with BA being the sole runner on the timing.

Sorry I haven't completed the others yet, I am juggling a whole bunch of stuff. Southern Europe is about 2/3 done and I will have that for everyone soon.


I’m pretty sure this will be the second time VS has attempted a morning BOS-LHR. They must have some security this is going to work. In fact I wonder if maybe some of the plan for this flight is to allow for connections from CVg, DTW, PHL, BWI, PIT etc. that are using VS’s current JFK morning flight so they can focus on more of the higher yielding NYC O&D traffic. BOS has some of that but will need connections to support this with now 2x morning BOS-LHR flights.
 
clrd4t8koff
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Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:57 am

Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:56 pm

clrd4t8koff wrote:
VS4ever wrote:
33lspotter wrote:


This was the section I was most looking forward to. Well done!

Couple of aircraft notes: BA, to my knowledge, has not brought the 788 — only the 789 — to BOS. Could be wrong! SK does indeed fly the 333, not the 332.

More on BA: I think BA's "worse" performance with 744s is perhaps tied to it being consistently on the morning flight (which anecdotally I've observed to be "less full" than its evening counterparts) for a five-month stretch. That is just my hypothesis, and I did see your point about not having individual flight information. Still, just a thought. Interesting that the Whalebus itself hasn't hurt load factors — I did fly BOS-LHR on it once and it did seem to be pretty packed.


Thank you, I am not surprised there are inconsistencies, which is why I usually put a disclaimer up that the data is only as good as that loaded by the airlines themselves/DOT and as we have seen from EI and QR, some of them just phone it in, others do a bang up job of keeping it up to date.

That morning flight is going to get seriously interesting once VS join the fray with their version of it. If it truly is running low loads then having double the capacity in terms of flights is not going to make it any better. The only thing I can think of is that DL/VS have pulled in some contracts that require that flight to be set up, it just is an oddball as to why now to start it after all these years with BA being the sole runner on the timing.

Sorry I haven't completed the others yet, I am juggling a whole bunch of stuff. Southern Europe is about 2/3 done and I will have that for everyone soon.


I’m pretty sure this will be the second time VS has attempted a morning BOS-LHR. They must have some security this is going to work. In fact I wonder if maybe some of the security comes from some of the recent new cities DL announced for this flight is to allow for connections from an array of places like CVG, PHL, BWI, PIT etc. that are today using VS’s current JFK morning flight so they can focus on more of the higher yielding NYC-LHR O&D traffic. While BOS has some of that it will need connections to support this with now 2x morning BOS-LHR flights.
 
ADrum23
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:06 pm

clrd4t8koff wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
airbazar wrote:

No reason for "could/would". It absolutely does :)
DL announced their planned expansion for Boston at the end of 2017, and now they are categorizing BOS as a hub. I think the two are related which is why to me this move was expected.
Another factor that has fallen off the radar is Amazon's HQ2. IMO, of all the final candidates Boston would benefit Delta the most so it wouldn't surprise me if DL is raising its profile in BOS in order to help Boston win the HQ2 bid. Why do I say that? Of all the final cities we have LAX, ATL, BOS, RDU, and AUS as the DL hub/focus cities. LAX and ATL are probably already as tapped out as they can get for air connections. That leaves out BOS, RDU, and AUS as cities with significant growth potential. Is it a coincidence that this year Delta has "upgraded" RDU and AUS to Focus City, and BOS to Hub? I don't think so. They are doing their part so one of these cities gets HQ2.


1. I do not believe DL is categorizing BOS as a hub as of now, it is still a focus city according to the investor day presentation last December. Many news articles also label it as such.

2. AUS is not yet a DL focus city, it is still a spoke as they only fly to hubs/focus cities. DL's potential growth in AUS has nothing to do with HQ2, but rather DL filling their Texas gap, which is the biggest hole in their network.

3. RDU was classified as a DL focus city back in 2016, long before HQ2 was even announced. It has nothing to do with HQ2 and is about filling a void at RDU (a lucrative tech market) that other carriers left behind.

4. What purpose would DL upgrading BOS to full hub status serve? Serious question, and I'm not trying to downplay BOS here, I'm just curious at people's thoughts on this. Would BOS become an official secondary TATL gateway to relieve JFK?


Last I heard Amazon hadn’t selected an HQ2 location. Did I miss something or do you have inside information? Curious why you bring up HQ2 when talking about AUS & RDU?

DL has called BOS a hub since 2016 and even says so themselves on their website:

https://news.delta.com/boston-logan-int ... -airport-0


That information is outdated and inaccurate. The information shared in DL's investor day presentation last December classified BOS, along with CVG and RDU as "focus cities" and I tend to treat this information as more authentic as it is information being presented to shareholders.

http://s1.q4cdn.com/231238688/files/doc_presentations/2017/Delta-Air-Lines-Investor-Day_2017.pdf (see slide 24)

I brought up HQ2 in my previous post because airbazar suggested DL may be building up RDU and AUS into focus cities to get HQ2, and that simply isn't true. RDU was classified as a focus city back in 2016 and it happened because RDU is a lucrative, fast growing market that had a void at it's airport left by the dehubbing(s) of AA and JI. AUS is not yet a DL focus city as they only fly to hubs/focus cities, but all signs point to it becoming one once the new gates come online. DL expanding AUS would be because they lack a presence in the lucrative, fast-growing Texas market (and I personally believe it could become more than a focus city in the long term future, but I won't open that can of worms here).

When I said HQ2 was announced, I meant the announcement that Amazon is opening a second headquarters, not the actual selection of a city.
 
ADrum23
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:13 pm

NickolayAv wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
4. What purpose would DL upgrading BOS to full hub status serve? Serious question, and I'm not trying to downplay BOS here, I'm just curious at people's thoughts on this. Would BOS become an official secondary TATL gateway to relieve JFK?

Considering BOS geographical location (perfect for TATL connections), DLs dominance in TATL flights, and JFK being near capacity for DL at the moment, it is reasonable to build another connecting TATL hub. Also, in recent years I think it is becoming more and more evident that BOS has a lot more potential than many people thought, and BOS as a city is booming right now, it's growing in population and financially. This makes Boston a more lucrative O/D market, and with BOS lacking a hub from one of the US3 that could provide a global network from BOS I think it makes perfect sense why DL would want to grow in BOS. With that in mind, although getting all of Terminal A will help, if DL wants to expand into a hub in BOS, some intl. destinations need to be added, but ultimately it will be hard for DL to really connect intl. connections in BOS the way it is now, without an airside connector.


And that is why I have doubts DL will expand BOS into a full hub. The lack of FIS gates in Terminal A and airside connections would make a hub operation difficult. BOS certainly has all the characteristics a hub city needs, but it make come down to the lack of proper infrastructure in the end. Are there any plans to address this?

I always thought Boston was pretty well-known city, underrated city, did people really doubt it's potential?
 
737900ER
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:17 pm

clrd4t8koff wrote:
I’m pretty sure this will be the second time VS has attempted a morning BOS-LHR. They must have some security this is going to work. In fact I wonder if maybe some of the plan for this flight is to allow for connections from CVg, DTW, PHL, BWI, PIT etc. that are using VS’s current JFK morning flight so they can focus on more of the higher yielding NYC O&D traffic. BOS has some of that but will need connections to support this with now 2x morning BOS-LHR flights.


If their goal was to generate a lot of connecting traffic, wouldn't it make more sense to fly the eastbound out of A rather than E? I also imagine there's more flexibility to squeeze in a widebody in the morning than in the afternoon.

DL doesn't fly BWI-BOS.

The other problem is that today DL doesn't really have that many flights from the Eastern Time Zone that arrive before 9AM. The following EST cities (that do not already have a morning LHR departure) arrive before 9AM: BUF, IND, RDU, CMH, PIT, RIC. The only one that gets in before 8AM is PIT. The LHR flight leaves at 08:30. There would have to be a number of schedule changes to make it work as a connecting flight, and they certainly haven't happened yet.
 
clrd4t8koff
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:20 pm

ADrum23 wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:

1. I do not believe DL is categorizing BOS as a hub as of now, it is still a focus city according to the investor day presentation last December. Many news articles also label it as such.

2. AUS is not yet a DL focus city, it is still a spoke as they only fly to hubs/focus cities. DL's potential growth in AUS has nothing to do with HQ2, but rather DL filling their Texas gap, which is the biggest hole in their network.

3. RDU was classified as a DL focus city back in 2016, long before HQ2 was even announced. It has nothing to do with HQ2 and is about filling a void at RDU (a lucrative tech market) that other carriers left behind.

4. What purpose would DL upgrading BOS to full hub status serve? Serious question, and I'm not trying to downplay BOS here, I'm just curious at people's thoughts on this. Would BOS become an official secondary TATL gateway to relieve JFK?


Last I heard Amazon hadn’t selected an HQ2 location. Did I miss something or do you have inside information? Curious why you bring up HQ2 when talking about AUS & RDU?

DL has called BOS a hub since 2016 and even says so themselves on their website:

https://news.delta.com/boston-logan-int ... -airport-0


That information is outdated and inaccurate. The information shared in DL's investor day presentation last December classified BOS, along with CVG and RDU as "focus cities" and I tend to treat this information as more authentic as it is information being presented to shareholders.

http://s1.q4cdn.com/231238688/files/doc_presentations/2017/Delta-Air-Lines-Investor-Day_2017.pdf (see slide 24)

I brought up HQ2 in my previous post because airbazar suggested DL may be building up RDU and AUS into focus cities to get HQ2, and that simply isn't true. RDU was classified as a focus city back in 2016 and it happened because RDU is a lucrative, fast growing market that had a void at it's airport left by the dehubbing(s) of AA and JI. AUS is not yet a DL focus city as they only fly to hubs/focus cities, but all signs point to it becoming one once the new gates come online. DL expanding AUS would be because they lack a presence in the lucrative, fast-growing Texas market (and I personally believe it could become more than a focus city in the long term future, but I won't open that can of worms here).

When I said HQ2 was announced, I meant the announcement that Amazon is opening a second headquarters, not the actual selection of a city.


Since 2016 DL has only increased flights at BOS. Why would the downgrade it to a focus city when it’s growing YoY? We can go around and around on which source is right. But I’ll believe a public facing corporate website page over a pdf.
 
clrd4t8koff
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:26 pm

737900ER wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:
I’m pretty sure this will be the second time VS has attempted a morning BOS-LHR. They must have some security this is going to work. In fact I wonder if maybe some of the plan for this flight is to allow for connections from CVg, DTW, PHL, BWI, PIT etc. that are using VS’s current JFK morning flight so they can focus on more of the higher yielding NYC O&D traffic. BOS has some of that but will need connections to support this with now 2x morning BOS-LHR flights.


If their goal was to generate a lot of connecting traffic, wouldn't it make more sense to fly the eastbound out of A rather than E? I also imagine there's more flexibility to squeeze in a widebody in the morning than in the afternoon.

DL doesn't fly BWI-BOS.

The other problem is that today DL doesn't really have that many flights from the Eastern Time Zone that arrive before 9AM. The following EST cities (that do not already have a morning LHR departure) arrive before 9AM: BUF, IND, RDU, CMH, PIT, RIC. The only one that gets in before 8AM is PIT. The LHR flight leaves at 08:30. There would have to be a number of schedule changes to make it work as a connecting flight, and they certainly haven't happened yet.


You’re right - not sure why I thought they did BWI

I also agree about how much of a benefit it would be to depart from A, though I’m sure the J crowd would not be amused to not have access to the Clubhouse in E.

I could be totally off base about the connections, but as I said earlier this is the second time VS have attempted a morning BOS-LHR, so something is giving them confidence in it succeeding and my sense is that it’s their stronger partnership with DL and more traffic.
 
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adamh8297
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:32 pm

Routes Online did discuss AMS-BOS on KL in their route rundown

https://www.routesonline.com/news/29/br ... o-icn-oka/

Did mention O+D for 2017 was about 130 PDEW (94K passengers) and there was a 6.0% drop from 2016. It was up 12% since 2011.
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AF, AM, BA, B6, CA, CO, CX, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, OU, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WE, WN

2019: CX BOS-HKG, WE HKG-HKT, CA HKT-PEK-EWR, B6 EWR-BOS
 
cvgComair
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:33 pm

ADrum23 wrote:
NickolayAv wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
4. What purpose would DL upgrading BOS to full hub status serve? Serious question, and I'm not trying to downplay BOS here, I'm just curious at people's thoughts on this. Would BOS become an official secondary TATL gateway to relieve JFK?

Considering BOS geographical location (perfect for TATL connections), DLs dominance in TATL flights, and JFK being near capacity for DL at the moment, it is reasonable to build another connecting TATL hub. Also, in recent years I think it is becoming more and more evident that BOS has a lot more potential than many people thought, and BOS as a city is booming right now, it's growing in population and financially. This makes Boston a more lucrative O/D market, and with BOS lacking a hub from one of the US3 that could provide a global network from BOS I think it makes perfect sense why DL would want to grow in BOS. With that in mind, although getting all of Terminal A will help, if DL wants to expand into a hub in BOS, some intl. destinations need to be added, but ultimately it will be hard for DL to really connect intl. connections in BOS the way it is now, without an airside connector.


And that is why I have doubts DL will expand BOS into a full hub. The lack of FIS gates in Terminal A and airside connections would make a hub operation difficult. BOS certainly has all the characteristics a hub city needs, but it make come down to the lack of proper infrastructure in the end. Are there any plans to address this?

I always thought Boston was pretty well-known city, underrated city, did people really doubt it's potential?

Connections between A and E are really not a problem. On the outbound there are no transfers since both flights leave in A. The inbound requires you to transfer from E to A, but customs is very quick, you can walk or take a bus over to A, and security in A is never that long. BOS is a breeze to make connections compared to the mess that can be JFK/ATL or a LGA-to-JFK connection.
 
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chrisnh
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:45 pm

The whole DL/Amazon angle is intriguing. Do they have any ‘inside baseball’ knowledge? Personally, I’m putting Boston third on Amazon’s list, behind the D.C. area and Raleigh. With Amazon being such a behemoth, they need government connections.
 
B752OS
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Sun Aug 05, 2018 3:17 am

While it would be nice to land HQ2, Boston will be home to one of Amazon's largest non-warehouse employment bases. They've been expanding their presence in the region over the last few years. They have committed to taking 430,000 sqf of office space in the Seaport which will see 2,000 employees based there.
 
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VS4ever
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:38 am

Part 6b – Southern Europe

This is the continuing series of posts to review the status (initially) of the International markets as at the end of 2017 (latest data available), I now have 4 full years of data compiled from the T-100 and as we know the data is only as accurate as that provided by the airlines each month. I remove diverts and one off's as much as possible so as to focus on the regular routes. I am classifying Summer Season as May to September inclusive in this post.

***Due to the size and complexity of the Europe list, I am breaking this up into 4 parts (Northern Europe, Western Europe, Southern Europe and an overall view at the end).
Next up Southern Europe and for the purposes of this exercise it will include the following routes (Spain, Portugal, Azores and Italy)

Overall
----------
The Southern European market has been shaken up a bit over the past couple of years. Historically held between IB (Spain), AZ (Italy) and S4 (Portugal via Azores), this period saw 2 new entrants with TP creating a non-stop LIS route, and UX arriving with their seasonal flight from MAD, however that sadly only lasted 1 season and didn’t return for 2018. 2018 will see Level from BCN added to this market along with IB themselves going year round for the first time.

As a result of the additions, the market grew by around 69% from 384K seats to 650K in 2017 and with the new entrants bringing 330’s, that grew the average seat count from 242 to 256.
The good news is that even with that capacity increase, the pax count grew by 72% over the same period frpm 307k to 530K and the average pax from 194 to 208, which converts to an 81.5% load up from 80.2% in 2014. So the market has grown overall, a lot of which will be attributable to the success of the new TP LIS route, more of that in a moment.

Equipment:
----------------
The consistent equipment on these routes is the A330, with all of the airlines primarily using variations of it with the exception of S4. AZ use the 332, they have thrown a 772 on random occasions, but not enough to cause a ripple in the numbers. IB use the 333, but have had a smattering 346’s and 343’s, others used maybe errors in reporting. S4 use their aging A310’s, but in 2018 are switching out to 321’s 2016 saw a bunch of 332’s and 2017 343’s, a lot of which I am suspecting were subs. TP and UX were exclusively 332’s.

BOS-FCO (AZ)
------------------
AZ’s financial woes are well documented, but it hasn’t stopped folks flying with them pax traffic grew 8% over the 4 years from 107k to 116k with almost identical capacity of 137k, which would should be enough growth to at least maintain the bottom line assuming ticket prices didn’t fall through the floor during the same period. Average loads as a result improved from 79% to 84% for the year. Summer loads improved to 88.3% in 2017 with both August and a little more surprisingly September breaking the 90% barrier and not a 60% load in sight.
The question on this route right now is will AZ be the one to ultimately carry it through, definitely have the feeling that if AZ do go down, someone will replace it.


BOS-LIS (S4/TP)
------------------
S4 had this market to themselves, but as their focus was on driving people to the Azores, they only flew it once a week. And for 14 and 15, given the limited capacity, they flew around 15,000 people on the route. And maintained around 82-84% loads. Which in itself wasn’t bad. However you got the feeling TP were looking for an option, and in 2016 they finally weighed in with daily service on a 332, that in itself made a statement of intent and it turned out just perfectly for them. Putting 100k seats into a market, you better have done your homework and it was clear that TP did just that, pulling in 85K pax for an 85% average load factor with the first 4 months averaging 89% for the late part of the summer. S4 added more capacity and went to 24k seats but only boosted their pax numbers 1k or so to drop to 69% loads. The writing was on the wall, or so we thought. They came back for 17 dropped the capacity back to 18k and pulled in 15k pax for a 79% factor. Now did they make any money doing out up against TP, we will never know. TP themselves now had a full year under their belt with 147k pax on 171K seats for another impressive 86.1% average load, only 2 months for the entire year with less than 80% loads, and even those were pretty close to it. So long may this continue, I don’t see additional frequencies on TP, just not enough room at E or C for that matter. But if these loads continue, it might be worth considering down the road.

BOS-MAD (IB/UX)
----------------------------
I’m not going to spend much time on UX as that was one and done and it didn’t do terribly well for them only achieving 71% on a summer seasonal, their highest was 80%, just goes to show, BOS is a market that you need time and a niche to make work and UX didn’t have either of them.
Over to the incumbent IB who have recently decided to take the route year round, they have grown the route significantly over the past 4 years from 90k seats in 2014 to 131K in 2017 or roughly 45%, some of that increase is attributable to going from an 8 month season to 10 month. And even with UX taking 15k pax in 2017, IB’s pax counts have followed with a 46% increase from 70k to 102k in 2017, which converts to an uptick of about 0.6% in loads to almost 78% year-round. This is a consistent route rather than a stellar performer with 81% in 2017 up from around 79% in 2014, it will be interesting to see them take this route year-round as their fall loads have been all over the shop but have varied from 48% to mid 60’s. Clearly IAG are doubling down on this route by expanding its timing, so they must have something up their sleeve, but this is a curious one. What will also be something to consider is IAG/IB airline Level is starting BCN in 2018 and what potential impact will that have albeit it’s not a daily service.

BOS-PDL (S4)
-----------------
And now we turn our attention to the Azorean part of our analysis, good ole S4 plying PDL for the past few years with a mix of aircraft that would make your head spin, but primarily the trusty 310, but others coming in as those were being phased out. PDL is a route that S4 is doubling down on in 2017, having shifted a significant increase in capacity to possibly counteract the entry of TP on to LIS. Seats have grown from 93k to 139k over the 4 years, roughly 50%, and while pax counts have increased, it’s not all been perfect as only a 43% increase from 77k to 111k, which has dropped loads from 83% down to 79.5%. Their loads are rather consistent with an 83% summer season, but TP does seem to be impacting as that’s down nearly 3% against 2016. Thankfully the Azorean community in MA will continue to support these flights, but their connections and yields to LIS have to be facing significant challenges and alarmingly bodies in seats dropped from 214 to 181 from 16 to 17.


BOS-TER (S4)
-----------------
TER is a route that has seen an uptick from seasonal to over 1 weekly since 2014 with over 300% increase in flights and seats from 7k to 40k during that time. But again, I think the impact of TP can be felt here, as pax went from 6k to 23k, while a big increase did not match the capacity and avg pax moved down by 13 from 182 to 169 and a 7.5% reduction in loads from 81.5% to 74%, hard to say too much more on a 1 weekly flight to be honest.

The Southern European market has seen some growth as shown above with TP clearly taking the honors on that front, It’s nice to see IB increasing it’s presence and of course Level has arrived in 18, otherwise it’s a bit of a mixed bag out there, super seasonal and AZ is still at risk, we’ll see what happens there in time I guess.


Data Source: BTS T-100 International Segment Report (All Carriers)
Data File used for information located here:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B61t8 ... Vp3SE8zaUE
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
iyerhari
Posts: 1091
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 4:25 pm

Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:53 am

clrd4t8koff wrote:
Since 2016 DL has only increased flights at BOS. Why would the downgrade it to a focus city when it’s growing YoY? We can go around and around on which source is right. But I’ll believe a public facing corporate website page over a pdf.

That PDF is a Delta sponsored and published document so whether it is called right or wrong by anyone else, it is the fact that DL calls BOS as their focus city.

As an example, AA website lists https://www.aa.com/i18n/travel-info/air ... mation.jsp BOS as their top airport but we all know AA has 10+ hubs in the US and abroad and BOS is neither called their focus city or hub. A regular person who is planning to make a booking may or may not understand between a focus city or a hub.

Maybe it is just semantics - but definitely true that DL has significantly increased their flights from BOS. They are now ranked #2 in market
 
iyerhari
Posts: 1091
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 4:25 pm

Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:54 am

iyerhari wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:
Since 2016 DL has only increased flights at BOS. Why would the downgrade it to a focus city when it’s growing YoY? We can go around and around on which source is right. But I’ll believe a public facing corporate website page over a pdf.

That PDF is a Delta sponsored and published document so whether it is called right or wrong by anyone else, it is the fact that DL calls BOS as their focus city.

As an example, AA website lists https://www.aa.com/i18n/travel-info/air ... mation.jsp BOS as their top airport but we all know AA has 10+ hubs in the US and abroad and BOS is neither called their focus city or hub. A regular person who is planning to make a booking may or may not understand between a focus city or a hub.

Maybe it is just semantics - but definitely true that DL has significantly increased their flights from BOS. They are now ranked #2 in market share at Logan.
 
iyerhari
Posts: 1091
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 4:25 pm

Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:55 am

iyerhari wrote:
iyerhari wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:
Since 2016 DL has only increased flights at BOS. Why would the downgrade it to a focus city when it’s growing YoY? We can go around and around on which source is right. But I’ll believe a public facing corporate website page over a pdf.

That PDF is a Delta sponsored and published document so whether it is called right or wrong by anyone else, it is the fact that DL calls BOS as their focus city.

As an example, AA website lists https://www.aa.com/i18n/travel-info/air ... mation.jsp BOS as their top airport but we all know AA has 10+ hubs in the US and abroad and BOS is neither called their focus city or hub. A regular person who is planning to make a booking may or may not understand between a focus city or a hub.

Maybe it is just semantics - but definitely true that DL has significantly increased their flights from BOS. They are now ranked #2 in market share at Logan.

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