According to November 2018 schedule. For as long as i can remember HA25 has always been wide body. With this downgauge I wonder if HA will add PDX-LIH/KOA to make up for capacity loss. HA PDX-OGG is restarting this January 2018 at least.

I would assume that all HA services to mainland west coast will be served by A321 aircraft as quickly as additional aircraft are introduced into the fleet. That would be in line with most other carriers that offer predominately single aisle aircraft on those same routes, and presumably why HA invested in the A321.

Qantas59 wrote:

I would assume that all HA services to mainland west coast will be served by A321 aircraft as quickly as additional aircraft are introduced into the fleet. That would be in line with most other carriers that offer predominately single aisle aircraft on those same routes, and presumably why HA invested in the A321.

All? Doubtful. LAX, SFO and SEA to some extent require massive capacity to Hawaii. Moreover, HA didn't order enough to replace all the west coast capacity.

There will likely be a few added cities coming up as aircraft are freed up. I am not surprised by this move as HA has always been second fiddle from PDX to Hawaii, but they have a nice service including a Y meal. Now HA is not likely able to continue charging such a fare difference in their premium cabin, as the reduction to the A-321 is not the same seating as their A-332 up front & closer to AS service levels.

Some other cities like SMF may be cut to the A-321, but not their entire west coast system & to the OP, PDX-LIH/KOA are only seasonal on AS, if HA did jump on these routes I would also expect seasonal & maybe 4 x weekly to KOA & 3 x weekly to LIH.

The A332 is running 92-96% full. Why would they want to bump 100+ passengers a day? Unless they plan to add a second PDX-HNL.

jbpdx wrote:

The A332 is running 92-96% full. Why would they want to bump 100+ passengers a day? Unless they plan to add a second PDX-HNL.

Yield would be my first guess.

Actually what would be great is if they added an evening bank to the west coast to allow for direct connections to the mainland from International cities, especially Australia/NZ.

ANA787 wrote:

According to November 2018 schedule. For as long as i can remember HA25 has always been wide body. With this downgauge I wonder if HA will add PDX-LIH/KOA to make up for capacity loss. HA PDX-OGG is restarting this January 2018 at least.

Nov 2018 is a very long time from now and what you see on the website will likely undergo many changes. I don't doubt however, that the long time (long before AS even thought about flying to Hawaii mind you) HA26/25 will become a 321neo. Combined with the resumption of the OGG service, there are actually more seats in the PDX market for HAL than before, so they're already making up for the lost capacity. 2 - 321's = 378 seats. 1 - 330 = 278 seats. I think we'll see more moves like these, to spread out the traffic. I wouldn't be surprised if SAN and SMF fall into this category.

Qantas59 wrote:

I would assume that all HA services to mainland west coast will be served by A321 aircraft as quickly as additional aircraft are introduced into the fleet. That would be in line with most other carriers that offer predominately single aisle aircraft on those same routes, and presumably why HA invested in the A321.

It's been said a million times on this website and by HAL themselves. The 321's are not replacing all the widebodies to the west coast! The 321's will complement the 330 to the west coast. THe 321 will allow several gaps in the network to be filled by spreading out much of the traffic that is concentrated through the HNL hub.

obelau24 wrote:

Actually what would be great is if they added an evening bank to the west coast to allow for direct connections to the mainland from International cities, especially Australia/NZ.

This already happens everyday, there is no need for an evening bank. With a few exceptions, every international city is connectable to every mainland city and vice versa.

The GC distance PDX-HNL-SYD is exactly the same as the direct PDX-SYD route: 6,665 nm. HA flight arrives in HNL just in time to miss the SYD and AKL connections.

If HA switches to A321 and doesn’t add another daily to HNL, AS or DL likely will.

Only the internal data that HAL can see will tell how many PDEW passengers terminate their journey in HNL. They must obviously see something that compels them to split the flights. Again, 2 - 321's provides more overall seats to the islands. There isn't going to be a huge vacuum, if at all, to fill when HAL splits certain destinations.

As for SYD, that's the one international destination that is hard to connect to in the southbound direction from all west-coast cities. The reason SYD leaves so early is because of the curfew that the airport imposes. The flight must leave HNL early enough to arrive SYD, allow for appropriate turn time and still depart with a buffer prior to the curfew. If SYD left much later, like AKL and BNE do, the departure wouldn't make the curfew. Since HAL doesn't operate like a traditional network carrier, scheduling all the flights for seamless connections, except for neighbor island flying is low priority. This is where the stop-over can be attractive.

HA should have purchased the HGW A330-300. Do they need the-200's range for anything in their network? JFK?

azjubilee wrote:

Only the internal data that HAL can see will tell how many PDEW passengers terminate their journey in HNL. They must obviously see something that compels them to split the flights. Again, 2 - 321's provides more overall seats to the islands. There isn't going to be a huge vacuum, if at all, to fill when HAL splits certain destinations.

This is happening at OAK as well. OAK-OGG is going from A330/767 to A321 as OAK-LIH goes year round daily on A321. Fewer seats to OGG, more seats overall.

ucdtim17 wrote:

azjubilee wrote:

Only the internal data that HAL can see will tell how many PDEW passengers terminate their journey in HNL. They must obviously see something that compels them to split the flights. Again, 2 - 321's provides more overall seats to the islands. There isn't going to be a huge vacuum, if at all, to fill when HAL splits certain destinations.

This is happening at OAK as well. OAK-OGG is going from A330/767 to A321 as OAK-LIH goes year round daily on A321. Fewer seats to OGG, more seats overall.

Exactly. I wouldn't be surprised to see HNL-OAK also become a 321 as well. HAL has set up maintenance bases in both PDX and OAK to support the new fleet as the 321 will not be handled by DL the way the 330/767 is on the west coast.

azjubilee wrote:

ucdtim17 wrote:

azjubilee wrote:

Only the internal data that HAL can see will tell how many PDEW passengers terminate their journey in HNL. They must obviously see something that compels them to split the flights. Again, 2 - 321's provides more overall seats to the islands. There isn't going to be a huge vacuum, if at all, to fill when HAL splits certain destinations.

This is happening at OAK as well. OAK-OGG is going from A330/767 to A321 as OAK-LIH goes year round daily on A321. Fewer seats to OGG, more seats overall.

Exactly. I wouldn't be surprised to see HNL-OAK also become a 321 as well. HAL has set up maintenance bases in both PDX and OAK to support the new fleet as the 321 will not be handled by DL the way the 330/767 is on the west coast.

The handling of HA in SEA is done by World Flight Services, Delta does the mx work if needed but not the ground handling.

FedexL1011 wrote:

azjubilee wrote:

ucdtim17 wrote:

This is happening at OAK as well. OAK-OGG is going from A330/767 to A321 as OAK-LIH goes year round daily on A321. Fewer seats to OGG, more seats overall.

Exactly. I wouldn't be surprised to see HNL-OAK also become a 321 as well. HAL has set up maintenance bases in both PDX and OAK to support the new fleet as the 321 will not be handled by DL the way the 330/767 is on the west coast.

The handling of HA in SEA is done by World Flight Services, Delta does the mx work if needed but not the ground handling.

I never said anything about ground handling, the sentence was about maintenance.

ucdtim17 wrote:

azjubilee wrote:

Only the internal data that HAL can see will tell how many PDEW passengers terminate their journey in HNL. They must obviously see something that compels them to split the flights. Again, 2 - 321's provides more overall seats to the islands. There isn't going to be a huge vacuum, if at all, to fill when HAL splits certain destinations.

This is happening at OAK as well. OAK-OGG is going from A330/767 to A321 as OAK-LIH goes year round daily on A321. Fewer seats to OGG, more seats overall.

What is the change in cargo volumes and tonnage?

Spacepope wrote:

ucdtim17 wrote:

azjubilee wrote:

Only the internal data that HAL can see will tell how many PDEW passengers terminate their journey in HNL. They must obviously see something that compels them to split the flights. Again, 2 - 321's provides more overall seats to the islands. There isn't going to be a huge vacuum, if at all, to fill when HAL splits certain destinations.

This is happening at OAK as well. OAK-OGG is going from A330/767 to A321 as OAK-LIH goes year round daily on A321. Fewer seats to OGG, more seats overall.

What is the change in cargo volumes and tonnage?

The 321 will not be cargo carrying airplane, bottom
line. So, HAL must be looking at lots things, including cargo volumes when they make the decision to switch to the 321. Certainly, they’re doing their homework.

Looks like Hawaiian’s A332 PDX-HNL carries an average of 5 tons of cargo per flight.

And note that Amazon's free shipping applies to orders we make CONUS and have shipped to Hawaii, with only a few exceptions. This has got to have greatly reduced living costs in Hawaii - and likely devastating a lot of retail stores. Those bellies of large planes must be pretty full of Amazon stuff, and as a guess seldom empty. Anyone have real data, or better guesses.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer ... =201117690

There are many exceptions to Amazon free shipping, and even Prime shipping, to Hawaii, e.g., bulky items, anything that uses lithium primary or rechargeable cells (even if shipped without batteries), items from third party sellers. If the Amazon listing states "free shipping", and it's a third party seller, check the shipping amount during checkout.

Woot, an Amazon subsidiary, does not offer any free shipping to AK and HI.

Qantas59 wrote:

I would assume that all HA services to mainland west coast will be served by A321 aircraft as quickly as additional aircraft are introduced into the fleet. That would be in line with most other carriers that offer predominately single aisle aircraft on those same routes, and presumably why HA invested in the A321.

I would seriously doubt it. Especially LAX, SFO, SEA. They might see 321's to OGG and KOA - but I'd be surprised if they pull all 332's off the west coast.

jbpdx wrote:

Looks like Hawaiian’s A332 PDX-HNL carries an average of 5 tons of cargo per flight.

A lot of belly freight is priced based on marginal cost. Watch this change post-Corsia. Enjoy Amazon free shipping while it lasts.

Qantas59 wrote:

I would assume that all HA services to mainland west coast will be served by A321 aircraft as quickly as additional aircraft are introduced into the fleet. That would be in line with most other carriers that offer predominately single aisle aircraft on those same routes, and presumably why HA invested in the A321.

It's been said a million times on this website and by HAL themselves. The 321's are not replacing all the widebodies to the west coast! The 321's will complement the 330 to the west coast. THe 321 will allow several gaps in the network to be filled by spreading out much of the traffic that is concentrated through the HNL hub.[/quote]

It's an example of the fragmenting impact that the 321NEO, and the 737 MAX, will have on many routes including TATL. While AS and others have been flying narrow-bodies to Hawaii for a long time, it's a first for Hawaiian. They'll still need the 330s for the higher density and/or longer routes.

However, from a spotting perspective, a bit of a bummer for PDX if it pans out like this. Sure, we'll see their 321s but not a lot of passenger widebodies at PDX these days.

jbpdx wrote:

Looks like Hawaiian’s A332 PDX-HNL carries an average of 5 tons of cargo per flight.

Perhaps trucking whatever cargo HAL carries to SEA is the solution. Once again, HAL knows their internal numbers and will plan accordingly.

I’m sure the service will continue to be awesome. The best thing about flying HA is that the vacation starts at the airport. The spectacular service coupled with the wide body experience really sets HA apart from all their competitors. Not the case with UA, AA, DL or anyone else. A bit of the experience goes away with the 321...

IMO, in F, most of the experience goes away... no lie-flat. In Y, the difference is mostly single aisle vs. double aisle.

https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Hawai ... 200_V2.php

https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Hawai ... 321neo.php

I'm curious about how much of HA's traffic that it brings into HNL on widebodies is actually connecting onward to other islands. The A321 seems to finally give them equipment to open up the playbook to compete with P2P service more in the style of what Alaska has built (e.g. routes like KOA-SJC, LIH-SFO) instead of having to funnel everything through HNL. I feel like this would lessen the need to fill widebodies with HNL connecting traffic, and would naturally lead to narrow bodies being the more attractive choice to stations like OAK, SJC, SAN, SMF, PDX and free up wide body equipment for new Asian or Canadian flying where the greater capabilities would be needed.

WkndWanderer wrote:

I'm curious about how much of HA's traffic that it brings into HNL on widebodies is actually connecting onward to other islands. The A321 seems to finally give them equipment to open up the playbook to compete with P2P service more in the style of what Alaska has built (e.g. routes like KOA-SJC, LIH-SFO) instead of having to funnel everything through HNL. I feel like this would lessen the need to fill widebodies with HNL connecting traffic, and would naturally lead to narrow bodies being the more attractive choice to stations like OAK, SJC, SAN, SMF, PDX and free up wide body equipment for new Asian or Canadian flying where the greater capabilities would be needed.

This is exactly the case, only HAL will deploy both fleets to the west-coast. Many guests who are on flights to HNL are connecting to the neighbor islands and there is internal data to support HAL's recently announced and yet to be announced plans. There will be certain markets that will always warrant the larger cargo and passenger capacity of the 330 and there will be some that can use the smaller gauge. In the end, the 321neo will allow HAL to diversify how the west-coast is served. The splitting of certain routes, will allow guests to access their destination on a nonstop basis, where the wide-body is simply too large. Too many people around here act as if HA only flies people to HNL, not realizing or ignoring the fact that HA serves all the islands from all its network, except that much of the traffic must connect in HNL. Just because HA doesn't compete on a nonstop basis with some of the AS network, doesn't mean they aren't in direct competition. HAL has been flying to/from the west-coast since 1985, now this fleet will be able to spread the traffic out, carry new passengers and give more opportunity for the guest to choose HAL.

jbpdx wrote:

The A332 is running 92-96% full. Why would they want to bump 100+ passengers a day? Unless they plan to add a second PDX-HNL.

By adding an additional frequency? If the O&D market is that big, 2xA321's are cheaper than 1xA332, while providing more seats.

airbazar wrote:

jbpdx wrote:

The A332 is running 92-96% full. Why would they want to bump 100+ passengers a day? Unless they plan to add a second PDX-HNL.

By adding an additional frequency? If the O&D market is that big, 2xA321's are cheaper than 1xA332, while providing more seats.

They're definitely not going to add a second frequency. Especially now that PDX-OGG is on the market...

Welp, routesonline.com has made this official: https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... t-changes/

FA9295 wrote:

They're definitely not going to add a second frequency. Especially now that PDX-OGG is on the market...

Alaska will add more PDX-HNL. The market is expanding not contracting.

RWA380 wrote:

There will likely be a few added cities coming up as aircraft are freed up. I am not surprised by this move as HA has always been second fiddle from PDX to Hawaii, but they have a nice service including a Y meal. Now HA is not likely able to continue charging such a fare difference in their premium cabin, as the reduction to the A-321 is not the same seating as their A-332 up front & closer to AS service levels.

Some other cities like SMF may be cut to the A-321, but not their entire west coast system & to the OP, PDX-LIH/KOA are only seasonal on AS, if HA did jump on these routes I would also expect seasonal & maybe 4 x weekly to KOA & 3 x weekly to LIH.

PDX-HNL are A330-200 v1 seating 45-46" first, 36" extra comfort & 31-32" coach. The A321 are same 45-46" first, 36-37" extra comfort & 31-32" coach. The first class seats on the A330-200 are 54" wide pairs with 21" bottoms & 21 isles & on the A321 are 57" wide pairs with 22.6" bottoms & 27" isle. So how exactly is the A321 up front less comfort than the A330 & would cause a price reduction? I would say that would be better comfort.

rbavfan wrote:

RWA380 wrote:

There will likely be a few added cities coming up as aircraft are freed up. I am not surprised by this move as HA has always been second fiddle from PDX to Hawaii, but they have a nice service including a Y meal. Now HA is not likely able to continue charging such a fare difference in their premium cabin, as the reduction to the A-321 is not the same seating as their A-332 up front & closer to AS service levels.

Some other cities like SMF may be cut to the A-321, but not their entire west coast system & to the OP, PDX-LIH/KOA are only seasonal on AS, if HA did jump on these routes I would also expect seasonal & maybe 4 x weekly to KOA & 3 x weekly to LIH.

PDX-HNL are A330-200 v1 seating 45-46" first, 36" extra comfort & 31-32" coach. The A321 are same 45-46" first, 36-37" extra comfort & 31-32" coach. The first class seats on the A330-200 are 54" wide pairs with 21" bottoms & 21 isles & on the A321 are 57" wide pairs with 22.6" bottoms & 27" isle. So how exactly is the A321 up front less comfort than the A330 & would cause a price reduction? I would say that would be better comfort.

Also Alaska's first seats are 41" with a smaller isle , Premium coach is 35" while coach os the same.

jbpdx wrote:

FA9295 wrote:

They're definitely not going to add a second frequency. Especially now that PDX-OGG is on the market...

Alaska will add more PDX-HNL. The market is expanding not contracting.

I was referring to Hawaiian, not Alaska...

rbavfan wrote:

RWA380 wrote:

There will likely be a few added cities coming up as aircraft are freed up. I am not surprised by this move as HA has always been second fiddle from PDX to Hawaii, but they have a nice service including a Y meal. Now HA is not likely able to continue charging such a fare difference in their premium cabin, as the reduction to the A-321 is not the same seating as their A-332 up front & closer to AS service levels.

Some other cities like SMF may be cut to the A-321, but not their entire west coast system & to the OP, PDX-LIH/KOA are only seasonal on AS, if HA did jump on these routes I would also expect seasonal & maybe 4 x weekly to KOA & 3 x weekly to LIH.

PDX-HNL are A330-200 v1 seating 45-46" first, 36" extra comfort & 31-32" coach. The A321 are same 45-46" first, 36-37" extra comfort & 31-32" coach. The first class seats on the A330-200 are 54" wide pairs with 21" bottoms & 21 isles & on the A321 are 57" wide pairs with 22.6" bottoms & 27" isle. So how exactly is the A321 up front less comfort than the A330 & would cause a price reduction? I would say that would be better comfort.

Lie flats are what I'm referring to. HA charges a premium vs what AS charges & rightfully so as it's a much better product, However the A-321 is more akin to the regular F experience on other carriers. Of course HA service level is one of the best to & from Hawaii & that may be worth something as well.