JamesRenard
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:40 am

PITexpress wrote:
The airport wiki updated these flights as seasonal, (same with MSY on WN) so I was wondering... On that subject, who actually updates the wiki?

I used to update it fairly often, mostly the destinations and statistics side of things.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:56 pm

As suspected PIT-CDG appears to be cancelled:
https://news.delta.com/delta-s-next-glo ... -york-city
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Lemieux
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:36 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
As suspected PIT-CDG appears to be cancelled:
https://news.delta.com/delta-s-next-glo ... -york-city

Cancelled it without putting up a fight, seems pretty weak to me
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:25 pm

Also FWIW, OneJet was renting out hangar 3 on occasion for MX, appears that all of their assets have disappeared from the hangar floor overnight.
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PITexpress
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:30 pm

That's quite unsettling. A downgrade? Less than daily? I think there's a lot DL could have tried. It is unfortunate they aren't trying.

http://www.flypittsburgh.com/newsroom/b ... rket-heats

“Delta remains an incredibly important partner,” Cassotis said. “Whether to continue the Paris route is something they’ve been considering for several years. That made it even more important that our passengers have additional options on British Airways, WOW and Condor, two of which are year-round.”


Thought this was an interesting tidbit. Was there writing on the wall for this route? I don't see that as her motivation for going after BA, but if there was some indication that DL might pull this one earlier, that would make a little more sense.
 
Runway28L
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:33 pm

This is really dissapointing. Probably the biggest failure the ACAA has faced in quite some time. I guess DL didn’t like how their biggest rival was getting a huge payday to operate to a rival European hub.

More important than ever to get BA to go daily to LHR.
 
steeler83
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:39 pm

Lemieux wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
As suspected PIT-CDG appears to be cancelled:
https://news.delta.com/delta-s-next-glo ... -york-city

Cancelled it without putting up a fight, seems pretty weak to me

So British Airways comes to town and DL runs scared. Then again, I believe someone posted not to far back that their loads this year were not too impressive. I guess they preemptively cut their losses rather than take a risk that would show little to know return given BA's presence in the TATL scene...
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Flaps
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:08 pm

Ill take the year round BA over the seasonal DL all day any day. If something had to give this was probably the least damaging.
 
steeler83
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:14 pm

Post-Gazette article on Delta ending CDG:

http://www.post-gazette.com/business/de ... 1808220136

As one could tell, I did not agree with the person responding at the bottom. I guess he didn't read that there's still WOW and Condor offering transatlantic flights to Iceland and Germany respectively. Plus, BA will add their LHR flights. I hope they become year round and are a huge success!
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ConcourseZ
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:32 pm

Now there's an incentive for BA to make LHR daily. Also to note that DL is discontinuing EWR-CDG.
Would be interesting to see if a lot of the DL PIT-CDG traffic connects to London airports.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:34 pm

I wonder if this diminishes the chances of DL adding more PIT flights in the future, DL and PIT don't seem too buddy buddy right now...
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PITexpress
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:45 pm

I wonder if there will be any reactions from DE/WW.
 
Runway28L
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:52 pm

PITexpress wrote:
I wonder if there will be any reactions from DE/WW.

I am really curious about this as well. This is the final year their subsidies are in place IIRC. If EI does announce DUB, then I see WW being the most vulnerable.

The fact is that we have never seen more than three carriers to Europe all be successful. That has been that way ever since the US hub.
 
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flyPIT
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:56 pm

Disappointing no doubt, but it was a good ten year run for this route. I said just a week or so ago PIT-Europe was DL's to lose before DE, WW, and BA entered the market, but instead they preferred sky high fares on a limited season. Not the end of the world however. In two years DL will have dropped CDG-PIT/PHL/EWR.

PITexpress wrote:
That's quite unsettling. A downgrade? Less than daily? I think there's a lot DL could have tried. It is unfortunate they aren't trying.

http://www.flypittsburgh.com/newsroom/b ... rket-heats

“Delta remains an incredibly important partner,” Cassotis said. “Whether to continue the Paris route is something they’ve been considering for several years. That made it even more important that our passengers have additional options on British Airways, WOW and Condor, two of which are year-round.”


Thought this was an interesting tidbit. Was there writing on the wall for this route? I don't see that as her motivation for going after BA, but if there was some indication that DL might pull this one earlier, that would make a little more sense.

I agree 100%.

However, as the blog you linked states PIT-Europe capacity will still be higher next year and the year after that due to BA. There is now a greater incentive for BA to go at least 5x weekly, DE to beef up their schedule even more, and EI to enter which dives up the capacity even more.
I'm really curious to see if DE reacts.

Midwestindy wrote:
I wonder if this diminishes the chances of DL adding more PIT flights in the future, DL and PIT don't seem too buddy buddy right now...

What gives that notion? DL just added SLC, is increasing PIT-BOS yet again, and adding a 7th PIT-LGA.
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pitbosflyer
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:01 pm

My worst fears comfirmed with Delta dropping CDG. But the good news is this will makes BAs route massively successful without having to compete with DL.
 
Lexy
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:02 pm

ConcourseZ wrote:
Now there's an incentive for BA to make LHR daily. Also to note that DL is discontinuing EWR-CDG.
Would be interesting to see if a lot of the DL PIT-CDG traffic connects to London airports.



Probably not going to happen for right now. There are other markets where the daily service will likely happen before a brand new city.
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Midwestindy
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:03 pm

flyPIT wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:
I wonder if this diminishes the chances of DL adding more PIT flights in the future, DL and PIT don't seem too buddy buddy right now...

What gives that notion? DL just added SLC, is increasing PIT-BOS yet again, and adding a 7th PIT-LGA.


All of which was before DL cancelled PIT-CDG, I suspect DL will lose some corporate contracts to AA/One World now that the LHR service will start, which will have overarching implications on DL's network from PIT.
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ConcourseZ
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:12 pm

Lexy wrote:
ConcourseZ wrote:
Now there's an incentive for BA to make LHR daily. Also to note that DL is discontinuing EWR-CDG.
Would be interesting to see if a lot of the DL PIT-CDG traffic connects to London airports.



Probably not going to happen for right now. There are other markets where the daily service will likely happen before a brand new city.

BA started in AUS daily, as I recall.
 
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flyPIT
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:16 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
flyPIT wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:
I wonder if this diminishes the chances of DL adding more PIT flights in the future, DL and PIT don't seem too buddy buddy right now...

What gives that notion? DL just added SLC, is increasing PIT-BOS yet again, and adding a 7th PIT-LGA.


All of which was before DL cancelled PIT-CDG, I suspect DL will lose some corporate contracts to AA/One World now that the LHR service will start, which will have overarching implications on DL's network from PIT.


DL didn't decide to axe PIT-CDG today. I would think they knew this when they added frequency to LGA and BOS just this Sunday. If DL loses corporate contracts over this then I'm sure it was something they considered when making the decision to drop PIT-CDG without a fight.
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kavok
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:28 pm

steeler83 wrote:
Lemieux wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
As suspected PIT-CDG appears to be cancelled:
https://news.delta.com/delta-s-next-glo ... -york-city

Cancelled it without putting up a fight, seems pretty weak to me

So British Airways comes to town and DL runs scared. Then again, I believe someone posted not to far back that their loads this year were not too impressive. I guess they preemptively cut their losses rather than take a risk that would show little to know return given BA's presence in the TATL scene...


That is not entirely true. No where has it been documented whether for 2019 DL was or was not offered the same incentives as BA. If they were, then yes, that would be correct. But I suspect they weren’t.

What I suspect happened is that PIT was willing to subsidize BAs flight and not DLs flight. Not exactly fair competition, and I don’t blame DL moving their wide body airplane to an airport that will play fair.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:31 pm

flyPIT wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
flyPIT wrote:


What gives that notion? DL just added SLC, is increasing PIT-BOS yet again, and adding a 7th PIT-LGA.


All of which was before DL cancelled PIT-CDG, I suspect DL will lose some corporate contracts to AA/One World now that the LHR service will start, which will have overarching implications on DL's network from PIT.


DL didn't decide to axe PIT-CDG today. I would think they knew this when they added frequency to LGA and BOS just this Sunday. If DL loses corporate contracts over this then I'm sure it was something they considered when making the decision to drop PIT-CDG without a fight.


You are reading too much into those adds. The 7x PIT-LGA isn't new, DL PIT-LGA is currently 7x daily so its a continuation of that frequency. Secondly, the increase in BOS-PIT is due to AA leaving the market, the route isn't even performing that well considering Endeavor had a LF of 57% from Jan-May (32.7% in Jan and 37.0% in Feb).

Fact is the PIT-CDG wasn't performing that well yield wise (hence the upgrade to the 767), and BA is being subsidized which is hard to compete with so you can't really blame DL on that one.

I don't see DL wanting to start PIT-LAX/SEA/CVG/RDU unless it is necessary to bolster one of those stations or there is $$$ attached.
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Cush
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:34 pm

flyPIT wrote:
Disappointing no doubt, but it was a good ten year run for this route. I said just a week or so ago PIT-Europe was DL's to lose before DE, WW, and BA entered the market, but instead they preferred sky high fares on a limited season. Not the end of the world however. In two years DL will have dropped CDG-PIT/PHL/EWR.


I agree 100%. Delta's fares on the CDG route where crazy. When i was doing a lot of heavy traveling to Europe, I always wanted to try the PIT-CDG route, but the pricing kept me away... For the places I was going, I would always need to connect, and it made more sense to connect in IAD/JFK/EWR and save 50% than to eliminate one stop and pay much more. Plus the thought of a 757 on that long of a route was a turn off.

I think if they would have really reduced their fares, the 767 service could have been a success, along with increasing the operational period, but as others pointed out, they went down without a fight.
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PITexpress
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:44 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Fact is the PIT-CDG wasn't performing that well yield wise (hence the upgrade to the 767), and BA is being subsidized which is hard to compete with so you can't really blame DL on that one.

I don't see DL wanting to start PIT-LAX/SEA/CVG/RDU unless it is necessary to bolster one of those stations or there is $$$ attached.


Agreed on your last point. As for PIT-CDG, If it wasn't performing that well yield wise, then why the 767 upgrade? (Did it have something to do with DL reducing 757 transatlantic flying?)

Secondly, a lot happens behind the scenes and all we get are tidbits of information. Did DL ask the ACAA for a resumption of subsidies for PIT-CDG? Is that even a common practice? The ACAA could have offered it I suppose, but I get the feeling they're not interested in eternally subsidizing a route. Don't other airports like BWI/RDU subsidize some of their existing routes? And how much did the ACAA encourage DL to keep the route going over the past several years, if DL was considering ending it?
 
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flyPIT
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:04 pm

Midwestindy wrote:

You are reading too much into those adds. The 7x PIT-LGA isn't new, DL PIT-LGA is currently 7x daily so its a continuation of that frequency. Secondly, the increase in BOS-PIT is due to AA leaving the market, the route isn't even performing that well considering Endeavor had a LF of 57% from Jan-May (32.7% in Jan and 37.0% in Feb).

Fact is the PIT-CDG wasn't performing that well yield wise (hence the upgrade to the 767), and BA is being subsidized which is hard to compete with so you can't really blame DL on that one.

I don't see DL wanting to start PIT-LAX/SEA/CVG/RDU unless it is necessary to bolster one of those stations or there is $$$ attached.


The 7th PIT-LGA is one more flight than what was offered last year during that time, so yes, it is one more frequency. That they are filling in for AA to BOS further shows DL is not looking to abandon PIT’s business travelers, so this notion that DL and the ACAA are having the poopoos together is unfounded.

Also, if yields on PIT-CDG were that horrible, the answer would not to be to add a larger aircraft.

We’ll probably never know all the details about why DL is killing the route. But I don’t think the decion only involved DL; I’m sure AF and even KL had some input. Wouldn’t it be a hoot if KL announces PIT-AMS in 2020 as a back door way to get PIT subsidies back in SkyTeam.
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Runway28L
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:04 pm

PITexpress wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Fact is the PIT-CDG wasn't performing that well yield wise (hence the upgrade to the 767), and BA is being subsidized which is hard to compete with so you can't really blame DL on that one.

I don't see DL wanting to start PIT-LAX/SEA/CVG/RDU unless it is necessary to bolster one of those stations or there is $$$ attached.


Agreed on your last point. As for PIT-CDG, If it wasn't performing that well yield wise, then why the 767 upgrade? (Did it have something to do with DL reducing 757 transatlantic flying?)

DL added a lot of 75S flying since PIT transitioned to the 76Z. To start, BOS-SFO/LAX/DUB and DCA-LAX were all added or swapped to a 757 with J class. I'm not sure if DL had flexibility to go back to a 75S which has been reported to be tight on utilization.
 
Lexy
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:29 pm

ConcourseZ wrote:
Lexy wrote:
ConcourseZ wrote:
Now there's an incentive for BA to make LHR daily. Also to note that DL is discontinuing EWR-CDG.
Would be interesting to see if a lot of the DL PIT-CDG traffic connects to London airports.



Probably not going to happen for right now. There are other markets where the daily service will likely happen before a brand new city.

BA started in AUS daily, as I recall.



They did, but AUS and PIT are completely different markets. Even BNA with an average of 95% LF hasn’t gone daily due to equipment and crew issues on the BA end.
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SunsetLimited
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:43 pm

BA actually started AUS as 5X weekly with the 788 but quickly made the service daily.
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steeler83
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:08 pm

kavok wrote:
steeler83 wrote:
Lemieux wrote:
Cancelled it without putting up a fight, seems pretty weak to me

So British Airways comes to town and DL runs scared. Then again, I believe someone posted not to far back that their loads this year were not too impressive. I guess they preemptively cut their losses rather than take a risk that would show little to know return given BA's presence in the TATL scene...


That is not entirely true. No where has it been documented whether for 2019 DL was or was not offered the same incentives as BA. If they were, then yes, that would be correct. But I suspect they weren’t.

What I suspect happened is that PIT was willing to subsidize BAs flight and not DLs flight. Not exactly fair competition, and I don’t blame DL moving their wide body airplane to an airport that will play fair.

The airport DID give them incentives -- back in 2008 and I think in 2009, and they were enormous incentives at that. After that, DL was on their own. That was the deal then. So from 2010 to this year, they operated the seasonal flight without any money from the ACAA.

Ms. Cassotis' job is to entice airlines to either expand existing service or start new service from PIT. I think She has done a hell of a job in doing this, the axing of CDG and blowing funds on two PVG flights notwithstanding. Who is to say she/ACAA can't offer subsidies to other airlines who do not currently serve the airport, especially international/transatlantic service?
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PITexpress
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:16 pm

steeler83 wrote:
Ms. Cassotis' job is to entice airlines to either expand existing service or start new service from PIT. I think She has done a hell of a job in doing this, the axing of CDG and blowing funds on two PVG flights notwithstanding. Who is to say she/ACAA can't offer subsidies to other airlines who do not currently serve the airport, especially international/transatlantic service?


As I said earlier, we don't know what the conversation between DL and the ACAA was, or if there even was one regarding subsidies. Sure, it may seem "unfair" to DL in the short term, but I highly doubt that's the way they think - they're after $$$. And even if DL stuck around, it would be a level playing field in two years. And in a sense, DL has been competing with subsidies for the past two years with WW & DE. I'd be curious to know what, if any effect those flights had on the PIT CDG yields.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:55 pm

flyPIT wrote:
That they are filling in for AA to BOS further shows DL is not looking to abandon PIT’s business travelers

It shows that they want to box B6 out of taking over the market

flyPIT wrote:
Also, if yields on PIT-CDG were that horrible, the answer would not to be to add a larger aircraft.

Same reason why airlines run widebodies to Florida, larger aircraft equals lower casm. To offset lower prices caused by the entrance of WW and DE, you lower the cost of the aircraft. The lower fares induced demand which justified the larger aircraft.
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flyPIT
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:05 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
flyPIT wrote:
That they are filling in for AA to BOS further shows DL is not looking to abandon PIT’s business travelers

It shows that they want to box B6 out of taking over the market

So.. in other words DL is still interested in the PIT business market and not anti "Buddy Buddy" with the ACAA?
Regardless, DL is a lonnnng way from boxing B6 out of either BOS or the BOS-PIT market.


Midwestindy wrote:
Same reason why airlines run widebodies to Florida, larger aircraft equals lower casm. To offset lower prices caused by the entrance of WW and DE, you lower the cost of the aircraft. The lower fares induced demand which justified the larger aircraft.

One reason airlines run Europe-Florida with widebodies is because they don't have a choice. By your reasoning AA, DL, and US would be running mostly widebodies to MCO and LAS due to the existence of G4, NK, and F9. You are only looking at one dimension in a 3 dimensional world.
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compensateme
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:12 pm

PITexpress wrote:
steeler83 wrote:
Ms. Cassotis' job is to entice airlines to either expand existing service or start new service from PIT. I think She has done a hell of a job in doing this, the axing of CDG and blowing funds on two PVG flights notwithstanding. Who is to say she/ACAA can't offer subsidies to other airlines who do not currently serve the airport, especially international/transatlantic service?


As I said earlier, we don't know what the conversation between DL and the ACAA was, or if there even was one regarding subsidies. Sure, it may seem "unfair" to DL in the short term, but I highly doubt that's the way they think - they're after $$$. And even if DL stuck around, it would be a level playing field in two years. And in a sense, DL has been competing with subsidies for the past two years with WW & DE. I'd be curious to know what, if any effect those flights had on the PIT CDG yields.


The Steelers have a better chance of being crowed the Super Bowl LIII champions *tomorrow* than DL did in receiving the same package BA received to support its LHR flight.

And if you really think PIT can continue play subsidy roulette and maintain stable, long term service, you’re sorely mistaken. What a shame to PIT taxpayers, who clearly deserve better from their share of local gaming revenues.
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:43 pm

flyPIT wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
flyPIT wrote:
That they are filling in for AA to BOS further shows DL is not looking to abandon PIT’s business travelers

It shows that they want to box B6 out of taking over the market

So.. in other words DL is still interested in the PIT business market and not anti "Buddy Buddy" with the ACAA?
Regardless, DL is a lonnnng way from boxing B6 out of either BOS or the BOS-PIT market.


Midwestindy wrote:
Same reason why airlines run widebodies to Florida, larger aircraft equals lower casm. To offset lower prices caused by the entrance of WW and DE, you lower the cost of the aircraft. The lower fares induced demand which justified the larger aircraft.

One reason airlines run Europe-Florida with widebodies is because they don't have a choice. By your reasoning AA, DL, and US would be running mostly widebodies to MCO and LAS due to the existence of G4, NK, and F9. You are only looking at one dimension in a 3 dimensional world.


Dl adding to bos pit has everything to do with trying to get some relevance on a route where they are bleeding money. If they weren’t in the building up Boston mode, that route would already be canceled. It really speaks nothing to their aspirations in pit. Although, I am sure b6 is glad that this might reduce their point of sale at pit.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:27 pm

flyPIT wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Same reason why airlines run widebodies to Florida, larger aircraft equals lower casm. To offset lower prices caused by the entrance of WW and DE, you lower the cost of the aircraft. The lower fares induced demand which justified the larger aircraft.

One reason airlines run Europe-Florida with widebodies is because they don't have a choice. By your reasoning AA, DL, and US would be running mostly widebodies to MCO and LAS due to the existence of G4, NK, and F9. You are only looking at one dimension in a 3 dimensional world.


What do you mean they don't have a choice? I was referring to carriers like DL running widebodies and large narrowbodies on routes like ATL-Florida. I was obviously not referring to TATL flights, which would obviously be run on narrowbodies.

They could run literally any other aircraft to MCO, but AA runs CLT/DFW-MCO all on the A321 which is the largest (if not a close 2nd or 3rd) narrowbody AA has, and DL throws the A321, B757, and even the B767 on routes in and out of Florida for reasons I stated earlier.
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kavok
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:57 pm

In addition to losing the CDG flight, I also wonder if PIT is losing the potential to someday become a DL focus city. (for whatever that is worth)

When DL kept the CDG route previously (post subsidy), I often wondered if there was a DL long game to convert the PIT businesses FF from AA favoring to DL favoring. I guess we will never know now, but maybe PIT can become an AA focus city instead.
 
Runway28L
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:22 am

I don't think it was ever posted, but the 911th Airlift Wing's first two C-17s are currently flying out of Wright-Patterson AFB by and have been operating since at least June. Both are being operated by Wright-Patt crews until the 911th crews reach proficiency. Still expected to arrive in October.

Image
http://www.pittsburgh.afrc.af.mil/News/ ... rom-wpafb/

Looks like the 911th AW has a new tail flash with these aircraft

kavok wrote:
In addition to losing the CDG flight, I also wonder if PIT is losing the potential to someday become a DL focus city. (for whatever that is worth)

When DL kept the CDG route previously (post subsidy), I often wondered if there was a DL long game to convert the PIT businesses FF from AA favoring to DL favoring. I guess we will never know now, but maybe PIT can become an AA focus city instead.

I don't see any chance of the US3 or WN making PIT a focus city. If anything, DL could add RDU and maybe LAX or SEA. AA will just be flying to their hubs other than RDU which is going less than daily and seasonal CUN. Even they are reducing their gates here... that's something completely opposite of what I would deem having interest in a "focus city" operation. UA obviously is just gonna fly to their hubs (luckily they've finally added capacity back this year... they only had a whopping 3 flights on mainline this Spring). WN appears to have little interest in anything outside of their "operational bases" which has already been discussed extensively.

The only P2P flying I can see being added is from G4 and maybe DL in the short term.
 
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flyPIT
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:34 am

tphuang wrote:

Dl adding to bos pit has everything to do with trying to get some relevance on a route where they are bleeding money.

Again, DL is showing commitment to the route, no matter the losses you think you may or may not be privy to. DL has a bit of a bigger picture, and if they are trying to show relevance (which I am saying) as oposed to "no nonger being Buddy Buddy" with PIT, why not leave it at that?


Midwestindy wrote:
flyPIT wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Same reason why airlines run widebodies to Florida, larger aircraft equals lower casm. To offset lower prices caused by the entrance of WW and DE, you lower the cost of the aircraft. The lower fares induced demand which justified the larger aircraft.

One reason airlines run Europe-Florida with widebodies is because they don't have a choice. By your reasoning AA, DL, and US would be running mostly widebodies to MCO and LAS due to the existence of G4, NK, and F9. You are only looking at one dimension in a 3 dimensional world.


What do you mean they don't have a choice? I was referring to carriers like DL running widebodies and large narrowbodies on routes like ATL-Florida. I was obviously not referring to TATL flights, which would obviously be run on narrowbodies.

Since the topic is PIT-Europe and you bring up widebodies to Florida as an example, one can only assume you are referring to airlines using widebodies to increase yields from Europe to FL. Again, airlines don't have a choice there. Your quote:


Midwestindy wrote:
flyPIT wrote:
Also, if yields on PIT-CDG were that horrible, the answer would not to be to add a larger aircraft.

Same reason why airlines run widebodies to Florida, larger aircraft equals lower casm. To offset lower prices caused by the entrance of WW and DE, you lower the cost of the aircraft. The lower fares induced demand which justified the larger aircraft.

But if you really want to shift the goal post in this convrsation, it is common knowledge that DL is not running nearly the amount of widebodies to Florida they did in years past, and that is even before the influx of WN, FL, G4, F9, etc.
FLYi
 
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PITingres
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:48 am

I have to wonder how much WOW had to do with the loss of CDG as well. I fly TATL regularly, but not frequently, and tried to use the DL CDG when possible, but with the fares DL were charging it was hard. Before WOW, I could point to some mid-$1000's route and say to the suits, well, it's only a bit more than that. But with WOW being sub-$1000 that argument really didn't fly, and I'm sitting in the back no matter whose name is on the airplane. Yes, WOW isn't the most reliable in the world, but my trips are generally a few days and if something gets screwed up, I can adjust. I haven't been able to justify PIT-CDG for well over a year now, and I have to wonder if maybe I'm not the only one.
Fly, you fools! Fly!
 
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flyPIT
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:19 am

"Boutique Air will be replacing Southern Airways Express at the John Murtha Johnstown-Cambria County Airport this November.

The airline will have 30 round-trip flights from Johnstown each week, 18 of them going to Pittsburgh International Airport and 12 to the Baltimore-Washington International Airport
."
https://www.wearecentralpa.com/news/new-changes-flying-into-johnstown-airport/1389345432

So enter PIT's second EAS carrier. Perhaps like Southern they will try to build a greater presence to include both EAS and non-EAS routes.
FLYi
 
Lexy
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:57 am

kavok wrote:
In addition to losing the CDG flight, I also wonder if PIT is losing the potential to someday become a DL focus city. (for whatever that is worth)

When DL kept the CDG route previously (post subsidy), I often wondered if there was a DL long game to convert the PIT businesses FF from AA favoring to DL favoring. I guess we will never know now, but maybe PIT can become an AA focus city instead.



AA doesn’t have focus cities.
Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
 
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ConcourseZ
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:47 pm

compensateme wrote:
PITexpress wrote:
steeler83 wrote:
Ms. Cassotis' job is to entice airlines to either expand existing service or start new service from PIT. I think She has done a hell of a job in doing this, the axing of CDG and blowing funds on two PVG flights notwithstanding. Who is to say she/ACAA can't offer subsidies to other airlines who do not currently serve the airport, especially international/transatlantic service?


As I said earlier, we don't know what the conversation between DL and the ACAA was, or if there even was one regarding subsidies. Sure, it may seem "unfair" to DL in the short term, but I highly doubt that's the way they think - they're after $$$. And even if DL stuck around, it would be a level playing field in two years. And in a sense, DL has been competing with subsidies for the past two years with WW & DE. I'd be curious to know what, if any effect those flights had on the PIT CDG yields.


The Steelers have a better chance of being crowed the Super Bowl LIII champions *tomorrow* than DL did in receiving the same package BA received to support its LHR flight.

And if you really think PIT can continue play subsidy roulette and maintain stable, long term service, you’re sorely mistaken. What a shame to PIT taxpayers, who clearly deserve better from their share of local gaming revenues.

The taxpayers don't pay the subsidies. The ACAA is self-supporting.
 
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compensateme
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:22 pm

ConcourseZ wrote:
compensateme wrote:
PITexpress wrote:

As I said earlier, we don't know what the conversation between DL and the ACAA was, or if there even was one regarding subsidies. Sure, it may seem "unfair" to DL in the short term, but I highly doubt that's the way they think - they're after $$$. And even if DL stuck around, it would be a level playing field in two years. And in a sense, DL has been competing with subsidies for the past two years with WW & DE. I'd be curious to know what, if any effect those flights had on the PIT CDG yields.


The Steelers have a better chance of being crowed the Super Bowl LIII champions *tomorrow* than DL did in receiving the same package BA received to support its LHR flight.

And if you really think PIT can continue play subsidy roulette and maintain stable, long term service, you’re sorely mistaken. What a shame to PIT taxpayers, who clearly deserve better from their share of local gaming revenues.

The taxpayers don't pay the subsidies. The ACAA is self-supporting.


Try again. The subsidy money is coming from the city’s tax on local gaming revenues. This money was intended to supplement or replace taxpayer revenue.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
ncflyer
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:34 pm

I posted this on the forum on the CDG flight being cancelled, but that forum is talking about a lot besides PIT.

It is my conjecture that the ACAA had long and hard discussions that they would be putting the CDG flight at risk by offering incentive to BA, but that the authority decided year round BA was more desirable and lasting (especially given how low yields appear to be on the CDG flight). Better to be in bed with BA.

I feel this way because Delta's reaction of cancelling CDG is 100% predictable, one would have to be asleep not to at least consider that outcome.

What I can't speculate on is whether ACAA tried approaching DL ahead of time to fend off a cancellation.
 
PITexpress
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:05 pm

PITingres wrote:
Yes, WOW isn't the most reliable in the world, but my trips are generally a few days and if something gets screwed up, I can adjust. I haven't been able to justify PIT-CDG for well over a year now, and I have to wonder if maybe I'm not the only one.


Oddly enough, when I was traveling to Europe over the summer, DL came in as cheaper than WOW, and that's before you start counting all of their add on's.

ncflyer wrote:
It is my conjecture that the ACAA had long and hard discussions that they would be putting the CDG flight at risk by offering incentive to BA, but that the authority decided year round BA was more desirable and lasting (especially given how low yields appear to be on the CDG flight). Better to be in bed with BA.

I feel this way because Delta's reaction of cancelling CDG is 100% predictable, one would have to be asleep not to at least consider that outcome.

What I can't speculate on is whether ACAA tried approaching DL ahead of time to fend off a cancellation.


Those are great points you bring up, and I whole hardheartedly agree. The ACAA is not stupid and I'm sure has been well aware of any potential repercussions on adding BA. I'd be really curious to learn what (if any) conversations they had with DL, DE, and WW about pursuing the BA service ahead of time as a courtesy. Perhaps they felt all four flights would be successful, perhaps they saw the writing on the wall for DL, we have no idea.

As I said in the other thread, if BA remains year round after the subsidies end, then PIT wins, if they go down to less than daily/seasonal, then it's just exchanging one airline for another.
 
tooluther
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:55 pm

compensateme wrote:
ConcourseZ wrote:
compensateme wrote:

The Steelers have a better chance of being crowed the Super Bowl LIII champions *tomorrow* than DL did in receiving the same package BA received to support its LHR flight.

And if you really think PIT can continue play subsidy roulette and maintain stable, long term service, you’re sorely mistaken. What a shame to PIT taxpayers, who clearly deserve better from their share of local gaming revenues.

The taxpayers don't pay the subsidies. The ACAA is self-supporting.


Try again. The subsidy money is coming from the city’s tax on local gaming revenues. This money was intended to supplement or replace taxpayer revenue.


That is absolutely not correct. No city revenue ever goes to the Airport which is a County agency. The City's casino revenues go to the city's general fund.

The actual source of the BA subsidy is the state Department of Community and Economic Development (DCED)
 
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compensateme
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:04 pm

tooluther wrote:
compensateme wrote:
ConcourseZ wrote:
The taxpayers don't pay the subsidies. The ACAA is self-supporting.


Try again. The subsidy money is coming from the city’s tax on local gaming revenues. This money was intended to supplement or replace taxpayer revenue.


The actual source of the BA subsidy is the state Department of Community and Economic Development (DCED)


LOL, this is what I love about a.net. Do you think the DCED waves a magic wand and money magically appears in their bank account? Fact is, all funds have a source, and in this case, the source is primairly the city’s gaming tax revenues.

http://www.post-gazette.com/business/de ... 1712080092
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
AaronPGH
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:32 pm

So we know this will go well for BA, but how does this effect Condor? With FRA being the #2 O&D Europe market, I could see DL pulling out as benefiting that flight as well. Potential service increase there, perhaps?
 
DeltaRules
Posts: 4955
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:53 pm

Runway28L wrote:
I don't think it was ever posted, but the 911th Airlift Wing's first two C-17s are currently flying out of Wright-Patterson AFB by and have been operating since at least June. Both are being operated by Wright-Patt crews until the 911th crews reach proficiency. Still expected to arrive in October.

Image
http://www.pittsburgh.afrc.af.mil/News/ ... rom-wpafb/

Looks like the 911th AW has a new tail flash with these aircraft


I wondered why there were two C-17s at WPAFB with different tail stripes- interesting!

ncflyer wrote:
I posted this on the forum on the CDG flight being cancelled, but that forum is talking about a lot besides PIT.

It is my conjecture that the ACAA had long and hard discussions that they would be putting the CDG flight at risk by offering incentive to BA, but that the authority decided year round BA was more desirable and lasting (especially given how low yields appear to be on the CDG flight). Better to be in bed with BA.

I feel this way because Delta's reaction of cancelling CDG is 100% predictable, one would have to be asleep not to at least consider that outcome.

What I can't speculate on is whether ACAA tried approaching DL ahead of time to fend off a cancellation.


I initially thought BA may have been ACAA flying too close to the Sun assuming that they could pay another airline because nearly everything's come up aces for them recently and they'd maintain 4 TATL flights, but it definitely makes sense they realized they might lose one but still possibly come out even or, perhaps, ahead.

I don't blame DL for leaving. They had a good thing for a number of years where they were the only one-stop option to most points in Europe and then Christina kept going to the money tree and inviting other people to the party to the point where there were going to be four options. She's doing her job, but it got to where DL decided they'd had enough.
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ConcourseZ
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:50 pm

compensateme wrote:
tooluther wrote:
compensateme wrote:

Try again. The subsidy money is coming from the city’s tax on local gaming revenues. This money was intended to supplement or replace taxpayer revenue.


The actual source of the BA subsidy is the state Department of Community and Economic Development (DCED)


LOL, this is what I love about a.net. Do you think the DCED waves a magic wand and money magically appears in their bank account? Fact is, all funds have a source, and in this case, the source is primairly the city’s gaming tax revenues.

http://www.post-gazette.com/business/de ... 1712080092

It's not taxpayer money. It's a tax on a service used by other people wherever they come from. If you don'y use the service, you're not contributing to the pool.
 
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compensateme
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:25 pm

ConcourseZ wrote:
compensateme wrote:
tooluther wrote:

The actual source of the BA subsidy is the state Department of Community and Economic Development (DCED)


LOL, this is what I love about a.net. Do you think the DCED waves a magic wand and money magically appears in their bank account? Fact is, all funds have a source, and in this case, the source is primairly the city’s gaming tax revenues.

http://www.post-gazette.com/business/de ... 1712080092

It's not taxpayer money. It's a tax on a service used by other people wherever they come from. If you don'y use the service, you're not contributing to the pool.


Any tax = taxpayer money. When the bill was initially passed in 2004, the selling point was that the tax revenues would be used to plenish municipal funds, providing relief on property taxes.

The money belongs to the taxpayers. Politicians are appointed (elected) to represent the interest of the taxpayers. If you were to poll PA residents and ask if they would rather have their funds used to establish additional air service from PIT or used toward education, I wonder what the vote would be...
We don’t care what your next flight is.

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