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flyPIT
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:59 pm

As part of the region's HQ2 bid:

"Local leaders also offered to build a business-class, high-speed transit connection between HQ2, Downtown and Pittsburgh International Airport using the West Busway and “shoulder-running transit options.”

As part of the airport’s planned $1.1 billion modernization, they gave Amazon the chance to “design a space suited to its needs, such as a terminal dedicated to shipping logistics or other uses.” An airport spokesman has said that could have included a hangar or cargo facility with direct access to a runway.
"
http://www.post-gazette.com/business/development/2018/11/21/Region-s-bid-for-Amazon-s-HQ2-may-have-been-the-biggest-of-them-all/stories/201811210083

Continuing the West Busway as a shoulder lane on I-376 from Carnegie to the airport is an interesting concept, and could be explored even without HQ2. This would need a complete reconstruction of the I-376/PA22/30 and Montour Run interchanges to accommodate shoulders, and probably needs to be done anyway especially making the third lane at Montour Run a through lane and not "exit only". I've also long suggested taking all hotel vans, courtesy shuttles, etc off the Parkway West and letting them use the Busway.
FLYi
 
ckpaeg
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:57 am

Oak522 wrote:
Bottega dei Sapori is closing December 28 “due to the whole airport being downsized” per the staff. Annoying because now with the AA lounge temporarily shuttered the only good fast food is closing. Is the plan for a major closure of concessions before this construction project starts?


That really is terribly disappointing. That is, in my opinion, the best store at PIT. The ‘downsizing’ comment doesn’t hold water. The airport is growing passenger numbers, but reducing their physical footprint. How does that sway a retailer and the economics of operating at the airport?
 
Gsasala
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:59 pm

Runway28L wrote:
Atlas Air B744 scheduled to arrive from BUF at around 14:24 today. Supposed to depart back to BUF sometime tomorrow.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/5Y8544

Taking the Jags up to Buffalo for their game against the Bills tomorrow, then coming down here to overnight.

Is there a reason why BUF keeps sending their Atlas NFL charters to PIT to overnight? This is the third occasion (I think?) they have done so this year.

They bring the 747 down to PIT because there isn't any room for a 747 to park. BUF doesn't have a lot of room for planes that aren't parking at the gates or being used for cargo
 
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dabpit
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:55 pm

USPIT10L wrote:
The Admirals Club closure has nothing to do with BA. AA wants the club space cut in half, IINM. AA has been cutting back its space in PIT over the last nine months, dramtically reducing their costs here. For example, they are only paying for and using B26, B28, B30, B32, B34, and B36 on a permanent basis. B27 and B29 are now county gates...AA uses them for RONs and the odd IRROP now.


The update of the club in PIT is long overdue. Doesn't look like it has been updated since the terminal opened in October 1992. Has green carpet going up the half walls and the FIDS displays in the lounge at the front are the old black and white tube monitors that have the flights from when PIT was a hub burnt into them....
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PITexpress
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Mon Nov 26, 2018 3:22 pm

flyPIT wrote:
Continuing the West Busway as a shoulder lane on I-376 from Carnegie to the airport is an interesting concept, and could be explored even without HQ2. This would need a complete reconstruction of the I-376/PA22/30 and Montour Run interchanges to accommodate shoulders, and probably needs to be done anyway especially making the third lane at Montour Run a through lane and not "exit only". I've also long suggested taking all hotel vans, courtesy shuttles, etc off the Parkway West and letting them use the Busway.


I think the entirety of I-376 should be reconstructed to be 3 lanes, that road is way too narrow and is almost always backed up. It will never happen, but I would love to see a 2nd tunnel dug under Greentree hill - a nice wide, 3-lane tunnel. Then the existing road could become the on/off ramps to Greentree.

USPIT10L wrote:
The Admirals Club closure has nothing to do with BA. AA wants the club space cut in half, IINM. AA has been cutting back its space in PIT over the last nine months, dramtically reducing their costs here. For example, they are only paying for and using B26, B28, B30, B32, B34, and B36 on a permanent basis. B27 and B29 are now county gates...AA uses them for RONs and the odd IRROP now.


Jeez, how much can AA possibly downsize everything at PIT? Now even the Admirals Club is too big and too much of an expense?
 
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pitbosflyer
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:40 pm

PITexpress wrote:

Jeez, how much can AA possibly downsize everything at PIT? Now even the Admirals Club is too big and too much of an expense?


Hey I'll take a smaller club with a nicer interior over the current club staying at the same size. The admirals club now isn't even worth visiting. Looks so gross.
 
USPIT10L
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:56 pm

If you saw the space they had at PIT before these changes, relative to the size of their operation, you'd be shocked. The back office space alone on both landside and airside was shocking, remember until just after the closure of the merger, AA/US used the entirety of counter space on one side of the landside terminal. Also, since when does AA need 15 gates for 45 daily flights? Keep in mind, the county's restructuring had a hand in this too, where else were they going to put NK, AS and 9X (Southern)?
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pitbosflyer
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:12 pm

USPIT10L wrote:
If you saw the space they had at PIT before these changes, relative to the size of their operation, you'd be shocked. The back office space alone on both landside and airside was shocking, remember until just after the closure of the merger, AA/US used the entirety of counter space on one side of the landside terminal. Also, since when does AA need 15 gates for 45 daily flights? Keep in mind, the county's restructuring had a hand in this too, where else were they going to put NK, AS and 9X (Southern)?


I agree them cutting back to what they actually need and lowering their cost of doing business is a good thing. Means they can make more money here and potentially commit to more flights or destinations.
 
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Runway28L
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:17 pm

PITexpress wrote:
flyPIT wrote:
Continuing the West Busway as a shoulder lane on I-376 from Carnegie to the airport is an interesting concept, and could be explored even without HQ2. This would need a complete reconstruction of the I-376/PA22/30 and Montour Run interchanges to accommodate shoulders, and probably needs to be done anyway especially making the third lane at Montour Run a through lane and not "exit only". I've also long suggested taking all hotel vans, courtesy shuttles, etc off the Parkway West and letting them use the Busway.


I think the entirety of I-376 should be reconstructed to be 3 lanes, that road is way too narrow and is almost always backed up. It will never happen, but I would love to see a 2nd tunnel dug under Greentree hill - a nice wide, 3-lane tunnel. Then the existing road could become the on/off ramps to Greentree

:checkmark:

Not to mention the Parkway West is in such horrible shape, mainly between I-79 and B-376. Completely resurface that whole road and widen it to three lanes. Kill two birds with one stone.

Although the Southern Beltway is likely going to help traffic on the Parkway West big-time. Can’t wait until it opens. Only alt route for me right now avoiding I-79/I-376 is PA-50 and PA-978 through Oakdale. Not ideal.

Looks like they’ve started clearing land next to the I-79 rest stop just before Bridgeville for the future interchange.
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ConcourseZ
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:42 am

The Southern Beltway will do nothing to reduce Parkway traffic. Most people get off of the highway before the airport now. Land will be ripped up with commercial development creating new traffic problems. I experienced this when I lived in NJ. A new highway opened to relieve traffic congestion only to make it worse. The whole beltway/43 is a bad idea steeped in a 1950s mentality from the TPK Commission. They just want to build highways.....modern needs be damned. We need a reconstructed mass transit system.
 
PITexpress
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:24 pm

Not sure if this is widely known, but when building what is now I-376 around the airport, the planners purposefully made the median between the traffic lanes to be wide enough to accommodate future light rail transit. There was also a proposal a number of years ago to double the size of the Ft. Pitt Tunnel by constructing two additional 2-lane tubes next to the existing ones. But saying that these are unlikely is an understatement.
 
Cush
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:07 pm

It's funny how so many other cities around the country and the world have public transit that is easily accessible and useful. I have traveled a lot, but I always get stuck in the "burgh" mindset when I go somewhere to avoid public transit and take a cab/uber. Eventually I use public transit and am amazed that you can usually get from point a to point b on a train/trolley/subway quickly, with ease, and cheaply. I wish we had that sort of option, and I don't mean the "T".
Fly me to the moon let me play among the stars.
 
AaronPGH
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:35 pm

Honestly, Pittsburgh's transit is one of the best out there for a city of our size. There are very few mid-tier US cities that can touch it, both in scale and in usage. We were one of the first cities in the world to pioneer busways – the East Busway specifically is a jewel that doesn't get enough credit locally. The new leadership at PAT has also done a great job the last few years in squeezing the most they can out of our current funding (real-time GPS is a game-changer).

The problem is that we have a few high profile gaps in our otherwise decent system (such as a proper rapid airport line), and they will continue to be black eyes until they are addressed. The state of PA needs to get off it's ass and supply PAT with real funding to start new projects, not just maintain existing ones.
 
Flaps
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:50 pm

Cush wrote:
It's funny how so many other cities around the country and the world have public transit that is easily accessible and useful. I have traveled a lot, but I always get stuck in the "burgh" mindset when I go somewhere to avoid public transit and take a cab/uber. Eventually I use public transit and am amazed that you can usually get from point a to point b on a train/trolley/subway quickly, with ease, and cheaply. I wish we had that sort of option, and I don't mean the "T".


Two main issues (among others) regarding public transit in Pittsburgh:

1. Geography - It is extremely expensive to develop new right of ways in this area due to its topography. Any project requires huge amounts of grading, bridging , rerouting of roads, railways, utility lines plus demolition of existing structures.

2. Poor/Shortsighted planning in the 50's and 60's. When the extensive trolley system was removed and replaced with buses little thought was given to future transit needs. Those valuable right of ways were given over to highway construction, busways and urban redevelopment projects. They are gone for good. The east busway is supposedly engineered for future light rail if needed but then what do you do with all of the buses now routed through it? Make everyone connect from neighborhood buses to light rail at transit stops? Another factor would be the absurd pension obligations accrued to labor unions during these time periods and even later that have dramatically raised overall cost of operations and limited the amount of capital spending available for new projects.

Its great that the airport parkway has room for light rail in the median but how will it connect to anywhere? I don't see Penndot giving up that right of way as they need it to construct temporary traffic lanes there every five years or so to rebuild the expressway whether it needs to or not.

In the end it all comes down to money and the money just isn't there.
 
Cush
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:52 pm

AaronPGH wrote:
Honestly, Pittsburgh's transit is one of the best out there for a city of our size. There are very few mid-tier US cities that can touch it, both in scale and in usage. We were one of the first cities in the world to pioneer busways – the East Busway specifically is a jewel that doesn't get enough credit locally. The new leadership at PAT has also done a great job the last few years in squeezing the most they can out of our current funding (real-time GPS is a game-changer).

The problem is that we have a few high profile gaps in our otherwise decent system (such as a proper rapid airport line), and they will continue to be black eyes until they are addressed. The state of PA needs to get off it's ass and supply PAT with real funding to start new projects, not just maintain existing ones.


But looking at the size and the scale of what would be required to run a metro line from downtown to the airport is totally unfeasible for our area... Think about it... You need to go from underground downtown -> (over or under the river) -> Through the mountain -> Up greentree hill -> Down 376 (while reconstructing overpasses to widen the space for tracks) -> then to the airport where it will terminate.

That's no easy task. Just remember how long and how much money it took to build 2 stops on the north shore... Just saying... That distance is like 1/100th the distance to the airport.

Another thing i consider is who would take the train from PIT to downtown? It really wouldn't be geared for local folks and mainly for out of town visitors... So, if it were built, i don't think we would see a benefit from it unless you live in or around downtown.

I honestly don't mind the distance driving from my home to PIT. It's anywhere from 20-30 mins. However, what hurts me usually is that i am running a little behind, and you ALWAYS have that phantom stopped traffic on 376W before Settlers Ridge, where all cars come to a standstill for no apparent reason, and then slow moving traffic once you are in moon.
Fly me to the moon let me play among the stars.
 
AaronPGH
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:59 pm

Cush wrote:
But looking at the size and the scale of what would be required to run a metro line from downtown to the airport is totally unfeasible for our area... Think about it... You need to go from underground downtown -> (over or under the river) -> Through the mountain -> Up greentree hill -> Down 376 (while reconstructing overpasses to widen the space for tracks) -> then to the airport where it will terminate.

That's no easy task. Just remember how long and how much money it took to build 2 stops on the north shore... Just saying... That distance is like 1/100th the distance to the airport.

Another thing i consider is who would take the train from PIT to downtown? It really wouldn't be geared for local folks and mainly for out of town visitors... So, if it were built, i don't think we would see a benefit from it unless you live in or around downtown.

I honestly don't mind the distance driving from my home to PIT. It's anywhere from 20-30 mins. However, what hurts me usually is that i am running a little behind, and you ALWAYS have that phantom stopped traffic on 376W before Settlers Ridge, where all cars come to a standstill for no apparent reason, and then slow moving traffic once you are in moon.


I don't think it needs to be that heavily built out. I am actually not even suggesting heavy or light rail for it. We have a good start with the west busway. Extend that thing all the way out to the airport, remove the Robinson stop, and we are 90% of the way there. Once the busway connecting Oakland with Downtown is done in a few years, it can route through there as well. All of those improvements would cut the airport ride in half from the East End.
 
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flyPIT
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:29 pm

PITexpress wrote:
. It will never happen, but I would love to see a 2nd tunnel dug under Greentree hill - a nice wide, 3-lane tunnel. Then the existing road could become the on/off ramps to Greentree.

No more tunnels, please.

What is really needed is the old "airport gateway" proposal, a multi-modal corridor that would have extended the freeway portion of Rt. 65 near Manchester across the Ohio near Brunot Island and all the way to the I-376/I-376B split in Robinson. It could also have included right of way for LRT, Peduto bike lanes, and everything in between.

Page 66:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&ved=2ahUKEwiG7riDgvXeAhWp1lkKHQ9aBZQQFjAFegQICRAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spcregion.org%2Fpdf%2Ftransstudies%2Fairportmm_final.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3CyqPzh7buR9yLsdWyhPhZ


ConcourseZ wrote:
The Southern Beltway will do nothing to reduce Parkway traffic. Most people get off of the highway before the airport now. Land will be ripped up with commercial development creating new traffic problems. I experienced this when I lived in NJ. A new highway opened to relieve traffic congestion only to make it worse. The whole beltway/43 is a bad idea steeped in a 1950s mentality from the TPK Commission. They just want to build highways.....modern needs be damned. We need a reconstructed mass transit system.

Of course it will take take traffic off the Parkway West, such as many of the folks going to the airport or their jobs in Robinson or Moon from the eastern suburbs. Land will not automatically be "ripped up with commercial development". This may be the case in NJ and other fast growing regions, but Pgh is hardly a fast growing region. Just look at I-376 around the airport. All that green space still sitting there vacant after all these decades.

The Southern Beltway and MFE will finally link the southern suburbs with the rest of the region (and nation), and will provide a direct link between the Mon Valley and Allegheny Valley (using the exiting turnpike between Monroeville and Rt. 28).

I agree with you the mass transit system needs major investment, but this should not be an either/or conversation. While mass transit can carry large numbers of people, it is useless for transporting goods and services, trucking and logistics, moving industrial goods, etc., and all the jobs that come with those sectors. This is why the region needs a complete highway system.


PITexpress wrote:
Not sure if this is widely known, but when building what is now I-376 around the airport, the planners purposefully made the median between the traffic lanes to be wide enough to accommodate future light rail transit. There was also a proposal a number of years ago to double the size of the Ft. Pitt Tunnel by constructing two additional 2-lane tubes next to the existing ones. But saying that these are unlikely is an understatement.

The I-376 median was made wide enough to be an 8 lane freeway. This can be seen by studying the I-376 bridges over Enlow Rd. on the south side of PIT.

The additional Ft. Pitt tunnel proposals are illustrated on page 104 onward in the report I linked above. I'd love to see those Carson St ramps go away and have all 4 lanes each way on the Ft. Pitt bridge go through Mt. Washington.

Funding has been put in pace for a complete reconstruction of the Greentree interchange as well as flyover ramps from I-376 to Rt. 51 at the bottom of the hill. This should go a long way to allow I-376 to be 3 lanes each way from Carnegie to the Ft. Pitt tunnels.



While we're on the topic of airport transit, it seems as though Maglev is making a comeback, particularly in Asia. The PIT-Greensburg proposal is briefly mentioned here:
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2018/nov/27/magnetic-levitation-the-return-of-transports-great-what-if-maglev
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steeler83
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:51 pm

Flaps wrote:
Cush wrote:
It's funny how so many other cities around the country and the world have public transit that is easily accessible and useful. I have traveled a lot, but I always get stuck in the "burgh" mindset when I go somewhere to avoid public transit and take a cab/uber. Eventually I use public transit and am amazed that you can usually get from point a to point b on a train/trolley/subway quickly, with ease, and cheaply. I wish we had that sort of option, and I don't mean the "T".


Two main issues (among others) regarding public transit in Pittsburgh:

1. Geography - It is extremely expensive to develop new right of ways in this area due to its topography. Any project requires huge amounts of grading, bridging , rerouting of roads, railways, utility lines plus demolition of existing structures.

2. Poor/Shortsighted planning in the 50's and 60's. When the extensive trolley system was removed and replaced with buses little thought was given to future transit needs. Those valuable right of ways were given over to highway construction, busways and urban redevelopment projects. They are gone for good. The east busway is supposedly engineered for future light rail if needed but then what do you do with all of the buses now routed through it? Make everyone connect from neighborhood buses to light rail at transit stops? Another factor would be the absurd pension obligations accrued to labor unions during these time periods and even later that have dramatically raised overall cost of operations and limited the amount of capital spending available for new projects.

Its great that the airport parkway has room for light rail in the median but how will it connect to anywhere? I don't see Penndot giving up that right of way as they need it to construct temporary traffic lanes there every five years or so to rebuild the expressway whether it needs to or not.

In the end it all comes down to money and the money just isn't there.

Regarding the question about converting the busway(s) to light rail, that's precisely what they do with WMATA. Several of the metro stops function as inter-modal stations where a dozen bus routes connect to one or two metro lines. Namely, the Orange and Blue lines have such stops at Dunn-Loring, Vienna, Falls Church, and New Carrollton to name a few. I'm sure the new stop at IAD will be another such stop connecting not just the Silver line with buses but also with IAD.

It would be nice if they could have the same thing at PIT. People think that such a link would only serve PIT travelers. Suppose you route it in a way that you would serve, Moon, Robinson, the Beaver Valley area, etc? Again, that seems to be how other rail transit systems are set up as they link airports with city centers and the surrounding areas. In fact, having such a route could even change how land is developed. The light rail line linking Phoenix, PHX, and Mesa had such an impact, and I think now they are expanding that whole system to better serve the entire greater Phoenix area. I know we're talking about much larger metros here, but why not PIT, aside from the obvious?
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AaronPGH
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:21 pm

I don't think we should be wasting the money on light rail. Busways are a fraction of the cost, function just the same, and have a higher top speed. The fact that other bus routes can use them to skip traffic is a positive, not a negative. The more transfers you force people to make, the less people will use transit. And, we could get 3-4 new busways with the same cash as 1 slower light rail line.

We should be doing this: https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015 ... -buildings
 
airberlin2017
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:07 pm

WOW Air has announced the cancellation on the PIT-Service from 11 Januar 2019.

All flights are removed from the bookingsystem and GDS.
 
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Runway28L
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:20 pm

airberlin2017 wrote:
WOW Air has announced the cancellation on the PIT-Service from 11 Januar 2019.

All flights are removed from the bookingsystem and GDS.

Source?

I still see flights all the way up until March 29th, 2019 on wowair.us
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stl07
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:25 pm

airberlin2017 wrote:
WOW Air has announced the cancellation on the PIT-Service from 11 Januar 2019.

All flights are removed from the bookingsystem and GDS.

Funny, I said this a few months back and was told I was overreacting
 
airberlin2017
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:28 pm

Runway28L wrote:
airberlin2017 wrote:
WOW Air has announced the cancellation on the PIT-Service from 11 Januar 2019.

All flights are removed from the bookingsystem and GDS.

Source?

I still see flights all the way up until March 29th, 2019 on wowair.us


No, WOW Air has stopped the sale for this route today:

Image
 
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Runway28L
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:43 pm

Thank you, airberlin2017. Turns out I didn't look hard enough. :roll: I am now seeing the same thing that you are seeing. My apologies.

Oh well, unfortunate but I can't say I'm surprised. WW's financial situation, mediocre loads in the winter, and BA entering the market year-round probably led to this decision.

Now comes the time for every local newspaper and media outlet in Pittsburgh to make another scandal out of this once again.

stl07 wrote:
Funny, I said this a few months back and was told I was overreacting

Perhaps it wasn't actually confirmed back then? Doesn't change the fact that you were originally wrong.
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Gsasala
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:02 am

Although sad to to WOW go I see this to be potentially a good thing, with the reduced competition of super cheap fares Condor might be better off, this should allow them to get fuller planes. This also opens up the possibility of getting aer lingus which is probably a better connection due to the high population of Irish people in Pittsburgh and a larger plane
 
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flyPIT
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:59 am

I too see some good silver lining in this. It should be quite easy now for both BA and DE to increase frequency... and to PIT's two top European destinations no less.

Kinda adds some ground to my notion that DL was a bit too quick to pull the plug on PIT-CDG, especially since it was yields they had an issue with (or so they say). Perhaps one day they will come knocking for a subsidy to AMS (probably won't get one for CDG in a long long time).

Aer Lingus seemed like it was PIT's to lose and reading between the lines of Ms. Cassotis' statement on that I got the impression PIT was the one who pulled the plug in order to give a boost to the BA service. Point being I think we could very easily be in EI's next round of expansion now that WW is toast.

It's a shame to lose the KEF service however considering the very surprising amount of O&D the flight generated.
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flyPIT
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:18 am

At least it wasn't the fire station that went up in flames. No injuries.

Image
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:35 am

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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:54 am

100% agree that this will likely help BA and DE a lot. This will take some heat off of them now that they will have less competition. The only real loss is the nonstop link to KEF and rock-bottom fares to Europe (but it's not like DE's fares to FRA in 2019 are super expensive to begin with).

I too think an entry by EI sounds more viable now, although I'm curious to see if the ACAA's stance on that will change now that WW is leaving. If they just wanted to focus only on BA and DE, that also wouldn't be a bad idea IMO.

Re the snowplow fire... A friend of mine witnessed the whole thing. Apparently from what I heard, it sounds like a specific part malfunctioned and overheated dramatically. The operator got in and out of the cab several times to check out what was going on and then an explosion happened. Good thing no one got hurt. :crazy:
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flyPIT
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:07 am

I'm not sure what the point of that opinion piece was. DL served PIT-CDG for 8 years beyond their subsidy period so PIT definitely got their money's worth on that. Condor offered greater service than what the subsidy called for and is now continuing PIT service without it. WW is now a failing airline which has resulted in them eliminating scores of cities, not only PIT. Its a tough industry and sometimes hard to pick winners and losers. The BA service will only be $3 million over two years with a calculated economic return of $57 million per year for the region. BA has a proven record of picking winners and staying in their newer markets (OAK not withstanding as that was only an effort to damage Norwegian) so I'd wager BA will be in PIT for a lonnnng time to come.
FLYi
 
JamesRenard
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:35 am

Midwestindy wrote:
https://triblive.com/opinion/featuredcommentary/14336418-74/colin-mcnickle-did-public-subsidies-kill-delta-at-pit

Quite a few things mentioned in that article make no sense.

Indeed, data from the U.S. Department of Transportation’s Bureau of Transportation Statistics show Pittsburgh International fared quite well with total origination and destination passengers nearly doubling from 2015 to 2017, with nearly half of those passengers flying on the subsidized WOW and Condor flights. Delta recorded only minor gains.

But in the same period, PIT’s total origination and destination flights rose a far more modest 19 percent.

This seems poorly worded. Are they talking about passenger numbers and flights for *all* destinations or only for international? Because if it's the former, their stats are way out of whack.
Between 2015 and 2017:
  • All passenger traffic increased by 10.58%
  • Domestic increased by 9.59%
  • International increased by 59.58%
  • No. of flights/operations increased by 4.95%
Side note, these are using the stats from PIT's own website.

PIT’s international flight load factor for PIT-originating flights was 70.72 percent in 2015 and the fifth-lowest in a sampling of 15 comparably sized airports , well below the all-airport rate of 80.64.

...they're using data from 2015 (before WOW and Condor were even announced!) to frown upon a decision made earlier this year.
 
ncflyer
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:00 am

Thought it was an excellent article. PIT spent $3mm to undermine Delta, an outstanding airline. Where is the return on that? Government shouldn’t be picking winners and losers.
 
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flyPIT
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:18 am

ncflyer wrote:
Thought it was an excellent article. PIT spent $3mm to undermine Delta, an outstanding airline. Where is the return on that? Government shouldn’t be picking winners and losers.

The return is year round service to a more desirable location.
FLYi
 
flyguy89
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:26 am

Runway28L wrote:
100% agree that this will likely help BA and DE a lot. This will take some heat off of them now that they will have less competition. The only real loss is the nonstop link to KEF and rock-bottom fares to Europe (but it's not like DE's fares to FRA in 2019 are super expensive to begin with).

I too think an entry by EI sounds more viable now, although I'm curious to see if the ACAA's stance on that will change now that WW is leaving. If they just wanted to focus only on BA and DE, that also wouldn't be a bad idea IMO.

Re the snowplow fire... A friend of mine witnessed the whole thing. Apparently from what I heard, it sounds like a specific part malfunctioned and overheated dramatically. The operator got in and out of the cab several times to check out what was going on and then an explosion happened. Good thing no one got hurt. :crazy:

I don't think PIT should be entertaining doling out subsidies to any more airlines for the near future. They now have solid year-round TATL service on BA, plus a budget option in the way of DE, that's a very decent portfolio under their belt. Let the existing routes mature and prove themselves without subsidies first before doling out more tax dollars...or better yet, let the market prove itself to attract new service WITHOUT tax dollars.
 
Cush
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:11 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
or better yet, let the market prove itself to attract new service WITHOUT tax dollars.


Yea..... That was the ACAA mentality for years before C.C. arrived and look at how much good it did the airport with declining passenger numbers and flights year over year (rolling eyes)...
Fly me to the moon let me play among the stars.
 
tphuang
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:47 pm

ncflyer wrote:
Thought it was an excellent article. PIT spent $3mm to undermine Delta, an outstanding airline. Where is the return on that? Government shouldn’t be picking winners and losers.

they got the golden prize of BA flight to LHR, by far the largest TATL market out of PIT rather than a market that's completely dependent on connections.
 
Cush
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:48 pm

Looks like the Qatar cargo flights aren't doing so well.... https://www.post-gazette.com/business/d ... 1811280096
Fly me to the moon let me play among the stars.
 
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flyPIT
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:10 pm

Here is the blog mentioned in the P-G's QR Cargo article. It sure paints a rosier picture about the future of the flight. We'll see what happens.
https://blueskypit.com/2018/11/26/pit-cargo-in-for-the-long-haul/


FX 1446 from MEM has been upgauged to a B763 the past few days. I'm not sure if that's just for peak. UPS also added back the second seasonal SDF-PIT 757 for peak, and FX a second IND-PIT flight (757).
FLYi
 
PITexpress
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:40 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
Let the existing routes mature and prove themselves without subsidies first before doling out more tax dollars...or better yet, let the market prove itself to attract new service WITHOUT tax dollars.


Want to reiterate that the tax dollars weren't used for these subsidies. It's gambling revenues and other funds. If someone wants to post a source, feel freel.

Agree that it's time to let the existing services mature. I had been hoping that the WW service to PIT would survive the cuts, but at this point, who knows if WW survive. Their brand recognition had always been successful, I remember when they were in BWI and BOS and many people here drove down to Maryland for the those flights. But that said, I never seriously considered taking them to Europe. They weren't that much cheaper in the summer and the timing of the KEF connection wasn't ideal. I hope this helps DE. While BA is great to have, they are not a cheap airline. For me, DE offers the right mix of service and price.
 
PITingres
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:52 pm

I will very much miss the WW flights, and I sure hope DE steps up because BA will almost certainly be expensive. I could afford to have my wife join me on WW but I doubt that's going to happen on BA. Not to mention that the TATL experience was much nicer going through KEF than flying on a crowded widebody and connecting through LHR (gag) or FRA. IMO anyway.
Fly, you fools! Fly!
 
AaronPGH
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:56 pm

Crowded widebody? The 767 is a dream to fly on internationally with the 2-3-2 seating. I always try to choose routings on UA that get me onto their 767s versus 777s or 752s.
 
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pitbosflyer
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:17 pm

PITingres wrote:
I will very much miss the WW flights, and I sure hope DE steps up because BA will almost certainly be expensive. I could afford to have my wife join me on WW but I doubt that's going to happen on BA. Not to mention that the TATL experience was much nicer going through KEF than flying on a crowded widebody and connecting through LHR (gag) or FRA. IMO anyway.


Do we really want DE to charge the same rock bottom TATL prices that WW had? The whole problem was that WW wasn't charging enough to actually make money. It cost them more to fly the plane than what they were charging passengers.

Also I agree I'll take 767 2x3x2 widebody layout any day over 3x3.
 
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ConcourseZ
Posts: 289
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:18 pm

airberlin2017 wrote:
Runway28L wrote:
airberlin2017 wrote:
WOW Air has announced the cancellation on the PIT-Service from 11 Januar 2019.

All flights are removed from the bookingsystem and GDS.

Source?

I still see flights all the way up until March 29th, 2019 on wowair.us


No, WOW Air has stopped the sale for this route today:

Image

It appears DFW has also been dropped. No flights available after 11 January.
 
klm617
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:28 pm

flyPIT wrote:
I too see some good silver lining in this. It should be quite easy now for both BA and DE to increase frequency... and to PIT's two top European destinations no less.

Kinda adds some ground to my notion that DL was a bit too quick to pull the plug on PIT-CDG, especially since it was yields they had an issue with (or so they say). Perhaps one day they will come knocking for a subsidy to AMS (probably won't get one for CDG in a long long time).

Aer Lingus seemed like it was PIT's to lose and reading between the lines of Ms. Cassotis' statement on that I got the impression PIT was the one who pulled the plug in order to give a boost to the BA service. Point being I think we could very easily be in EI's next round of expansion now that WW is toast.

It's a shame to lose the KEF service however considering the very surprising amount of O&D the flight generated.


My question would by why would EI expect PIT to work for them when over night they lost two of their European carriers. It seems the goal of the airport right now should be to get an initiative behind the two carriers it has now BA and DE to make sure that they can hold onto those flights. Any flights that the airport now would pay incentives too would be pretty much wasted money as PIT can not hang onto year round service or TATL flights outside of the summer season. Ba has come in and will fly year round service and give PIT a pretty decent option that is more sustainable than WW was we all know that they are or were on life support since day way one because of their business model. Delta provided a pretty decent link but when the money ran out they turned that into a summer only flight. BA is a great option for PIT better than all the rest PIT has attracted so it's time for PIT to show BA that their faith and investment in adding PIT was worth it and not start looking around for other options to dilute BA's ability to turn a profit on this route.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
PITexpress
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:20 pm

pitbosflyer wrote:
Do we really want DE to charge the same rock bottom TATL prices that WW had? The whole problem was that WW wasn't charging enough to actually make money. It cost them more to fly the plane than what they were charging passengers.

Also I agree I'll take 767 2x3x2 widebody layout any day over 3x3.


Agreed, on the 767 configuration.

I'm not advocating for DE to charge rock bottom prices, but I'd like to be able to get to/from Europe for under $1000 in the summer, and less during the remainder of the year, which is what they offer. I also really like that they don't jack up the prices last minute. A week before my trip to FRA in July, it was still $400 each way. I wonder if they will add back any Wednesday flights? But my guess is that any additional schedule changes won't come until the 2020 season, assuming that any changes in frequencies are made.
 
CaptainMidnight
Posts: 39
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:47 pm

Cush wrote:
AaronPGH wrote:
Honestly, Pittsburgh's transit is one of the best out there for a city of our size. There are very few mid-tier US cities that can touch it, both in scale and in usage. We were one of the first cities in the world to pioneer busways – the East Busway specifically is a jewel that doesn't get enough credit locally. The new leadership at PAT has also done a great job the last few years in squeezing the most they can out of our current funding (real-time GPS is a game-changer).

The problem is that we have a few high profile gaps in our otherwise decent system (such as a proper rapid airport line), and they will continue to be black eyes until they are addressed. The state of PA needs to get off it's ass and supply PAT with real funding to start new projects, not just maintain existing ones.


But looking at the size and the scale of what would be required to run a metro line from downtown to the airport is totally unfeasible for our area... Think about it... You need to go from underground downtown -> (over or under the river) -> Through the mountain -> Up greentree hill -> Down 376 (while reconstructing overpasses to widen the space for tracks) -> then to the airport where it will terminate.

That's no easy task. Just remember how long and how much money it took to build 2 stops on the north shore... Just saying... That distance is like 1/100th the distance to the airport.

Another thing i consider is who would take the train from PIT to downtown? It really wouldn't be geared for local folks and mainly for out of town visitors... So, if it were built, i don't think we would see a benefit from it unless you live in or around downtown.

I honestly don't mind the distance driving from my home to PIT. It's anywhere from 20-30 mins. However, what hurts me usually is that i am running a little behind, and you ALWAYS have that phantom stopped traffic on 376W before Settlers Ridge, where all cars come to a standstill for no apparent reason, and then slow moving traffic once you are in moon.


Don’t need a new tunnel or deal with all that. Just extend the T from Allegheny Station, run it along Route 65 to Sewickley, then cross the river and you end up close to PIT. But a shoulder running extension of the West Busway would be a good alternative.
 
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dabpit
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:57 pm

There was an article in the Orlando Sentinel about VIA Air and in the article, it mentioned that Pittsburgh and Birmingham, AL will be two of their new cities with 10 others to be named in early 2019.
https://www.orlandosentinel.com/busines ... story.html
Carpe Diem
 
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Runway28L
Posts: 1139
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:01 pm

https://skift.com/2018/11/27/alaska-air ... -alliance/

Very interesting. I can see how this would boost AS at PIT if it ever were to happen.

PITexpress wrote:
pitbosflyer wrote:
Do we really want DE to charge the same rock bottom TATL prices that WW had? The whole problem was that WW wasn't charging enough to actually make money. It cost them more to fly the plane than what they were charging passengers.

Also I agree I'll take 767 2x3x2 widebody layout any day over 3x3.


Agreed, on the 767 configuration.

I'm not advocating for DE to charge rock bottom prices, but I'd like to be able to get to/from Europe for under $1000 in the summer, and less during the remainder of the year, which is what they offer. I also really like that they don't jack up the prices last minute. A week before my trip to FRA in July, it was still $400 each way. I wonder if they will add back any Wednesday flights? But my guess is that any additional schedule changes won't come until the 2020 season, assuming that any changes in frequencies are made.

FWIW most of Condor's fares for PIT-FRA in 2019 are currently showing between $379.99 and $509.99. The lowest I found was the $379.99 fare for several dates. Highest was $809.99 on 8/2/19.
Greetings from KPIT! Check out my photos here: https://www.airliners.net/search?user=45 ... teAccepted
 
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ConcourseZ
Posts: 289
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:38 pm

More on WOW, this from today's Pittsburgh Business Times.

"By Paul J. Gough – Reporter, Pittsburgh Business Times
2 hours ago
Wow Air is reviewing its flight schedule amid a restructuring that is leading to the downsizing of its fleet, putting into question whether the budget airline will continue service to Pittsburgh after January.

Wow Air, which has been flying nonstop between Pittsburgh and Iceland for two years, announced earlier this month that it would merge with Icelandair. Pittsburgh had survived a previous round of cutbacks announced in October but flights on the Wow Air website couldn’t be booked after mid-January to and from Pittsburgh during visits Wednesday morning.

“Regarding other destinations, the winter schedule is currently under re-evaluation due to changes in WOW airs fleet but nothing has been finalized,” Wow Air said in a statement to the Pittsburgh Business Times on Wednesday afternoon. It wasn’t clear when a decision would be made. Icelandair doesn't serve Pittsburgh.

The airline is restructuring and returning to its lessors two Airbus A320 aircraft and two Airbus A330 aircraft. Wowair has been flying most of its Pittsburgh-Keflavik International flights on twin-engine Airbus A320s, including a flight that was due to arrive in Pittsburgh from Keflavik at 4:19 p.m. Wednesday, according to FlightAware.com.

“This is part of (a) necessary restructuring of the airline and to ensure maximum utility of its remaining fleet,” the airline told the Pittsburgh Business Times on Wednesday afternoon.

There was no immediate comment from the Allegheny County Airport Authority on the potential loss of the Pittsburgh-Iceland route on Wowair that has been a gateway to other European cities. The nonstop flight had been a favorite among budget travelers from in and around Pittsburgh who could fly through Iceland to major European cities for under $500 round trip and sometimes even less.

It wasn’t immediately clear how many aircraft would remain in Wow Air’s fleet. In October, when it announced it would drop service to Cleveland, St. Louis and Cincinnati due to lower than expected revenues on the routes."
 
PITingres
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2018

Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:39 pm

PITexpress wrote:
I'm not advocating for DE to charge rock bottom prices, but I'd like to be able to get to/from Europe for under $1000 in the summer, and less during the remainder of the year, which is what they offer.


That would be fine with me as well. BA looks to be loaded for $1400 r/t, which isn't as high as I expected from them, but is still $500 more than I'd like to pay and $600 or so more than Wow were charging.
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