fun2fly
Posts: 1547
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:04 pm

Okcflyer wrote:
calpsafltskeds wrote:
UALORD
Interesting Chart.

Looking at gallons burned per seat form best to worst

Domestic: 772A/1.1, 739/1.18, 753/1.24, 738/1.25, 320/1.43, 73G/1.15, 319/1.63, 752/1.75 PS only,1.6 50/50 sCO/ps
Atlantic: 789/1.24, 77W/1.34, 788/1.34, 752/1.44, 764/1.51, 763/1.54, 772/1.62
Pacific: 738/1.25, 789/1.34, 73G/1.37, 77W/1.39, 788/1.39, 7721/1.76
Latin: 738/1.25, 739/1.26, 320/1.33, 788/1.39, 73G/1.43, 319/1.48, 752/1.47, 763/1.62, 772/1.71, 789/1.79, 77W/1.91,764/1.93

Numbers look about what would be expected with NGs outperforming Airbus. Poor 772 Intl numbers may reflect ULH operations/cargo.

These are gross numbers and don't take into account ULH may negatively affect some numbers as does WB freight hauling.

Interesting that the sCO 752 has a low fuel burn comparing to WB, but obviously doesn't carry the percentage of cargo.


Two thoughts:

- 738 is consistent across D, L, and P regions at 1.25.
- 788 is well optimized with unit costs extremely close to the 789. No wonder AA ordered additional.


With the tail harmonization and a few tweaks that Boeing did, the gap is probably closer on the newer models. That bodes pretty well for the 788 as the 763 replacement for all intensive purposes. With the 788 at 219 seats (less a few for PE) vs. current 763 at 214. As you state, it is confirming AA's choice + the inventory + crew + training already setup. I'd say it's just a matter of time when and how many.
 
VC10er
Posts: 4220
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:04 am

fun2fly wrote:
Okcflyer wrote:
calpsafltskeds wrote:
UALORD
Interesting Chart.

Looking at gallons burned per seat form best to worst

Domestic: 772A/1.1, 739/1.18, 753/1.24, 738/1.25, 320/1.43, 73G/1.15, 319/1.63, 752/1.75 PS only,1.6 50/50 sCO/ps
Atlantic: 789/1.24, 77W/1.34, 788/1.34, 752/1.44, 764/1.51, 763/1.54, 772/1.62
Pacific: 738/1.25, 789/1.34, 73G/1.37, 77W/1.39, 788/1.39, 7721/1.76
Latin: 738/1.25, 739/1.26, 320/1.33, 788/1.39, 73G/1.43, 319/1.48, 752/1.47, 763/1.62, 772/1.71, 789/1.79, 77W/1.91,764/1.93

Numbers look about what would be expected with NGs outperforming Airbus. Poor 772 Intl numbers may reflect ULH operations/cargo.

These are gross numbers and don't take into account ULH may negatively affect some numbers as does WB freight hauling.

Interesting that the sCO 752 has a low fuel burn comparing to WB, but obviously doesn't carry the percentage of cargo.


Two thoughts:

- 738 is consistent across D, L, and P regions at 1.25.
- 788 is well optimized with unit costs extremely close to the 789. No wonder AA ordered additional.


With the tail harmonization and a few tweaks that Boeing did, the gap is probably closer on the newer models. That bodes pretty well for the 788 as the 763 replacement for all intensive purposes. With the 788 at 219 seats (less a few for PE) vs. current 763 at 214. As you state, it is confirming AA's choice + the inventory + crew + training already setup. I'd say it's just a matter of time when and how many.


Dear fun2fly, please do not be offended because I am going to correct something you wrote. I made the same mistake into my 20s! It is “for all intents and purposes” and not “intensive”. I mean this as a favor. I know someone who once wrote that in a client note at my last job and my boss fired him. (Severe I know- so it has stuck with me) I get it, say it fast as people do, and it does indeed sound like “intensive purposes”
I do not proclaim my English is perfect at all. Recently I made a grammatical error and was rudely cut to ribbons by a real a.nut / a.hole! Cheers, R
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
fun2fly
Posts: 1547
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:22 am

VC10er wrote:
fun2fly wrote:
Okcflyer wrote:

Two thoughts:

- 738 is consistent across D, L, and P regions at 1.25.
- 788 is well optimized with unit costs extremely close to the 789. No wonder AA ordered additional.


With the tail harmonization and a few tweaks that Boeing did, the gap is probably closer on the newer models. That bodes pretty well for the 788 as the 763 replacement for all intensive purposes. With the 788 at 219 seats (less a few for PE) vs. current 763 at 214. As you state, it is confirming AA's choice + the inventory + crew + training already setup. I'd say it's just a matter of time when and how many.


Dear fun2fly, please do not be offended because I am going to correct something you wrote. I made the same mistake into my 20s! It is “for all intents and purposes” and not “intensive”. I mean this as a favor. I know someone who once wrote that in a client note at my last job and my boss fired him. (Severe I know- so it has stuck with me) I get it, say it fast as people do, and it does indeed sound like “intensive purposes”
I do not proclaim my English is perfect at all. Recently I made a grammatical error and was rudely cut to ribbons by a real a.nut / a.hole! Cheers, R

You are correct. Going too fast and late writing. At least someone read it!
 
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calpsafltskeds
Posts: 3078
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:29 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:30 pm

788:
N27901 sked to exit FTW paint 2726/24Jul

More torture from this UAX update:
E145X:
N12195 is in prep for transfer to CommutAir
N14168 is in prep for transfer to CommutAir

CRJ200:
N869AS (2001 build) has entered the Skywest UAX fleet in full Globe livery
N987SW (2000 build) has entered the Skywest UAX fleet in full Globe livery
N854AS (2000 build) has entered the Skywest UAX fleet in full Globe livery
 
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FlightLevel360
Posts: 406
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:26 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:52 pm

Aren't some of the 200s coming from Delta Connection? I remember flying on N871AS last summer when it was still part of the DL CNX fleet. Now it seems to be flying for UAX
To me, it will always be:
- Bombardier CSeries
- Airbus A321neoLR and A321neoXLR
- EMBRACER ERJ-170, ERJ-175, ERJ-190, and ERJ-195
- MITSUBUSHI MRJ

Anti narrowbody-long range-twinjet gang. Long live the A380 and 747!
 
eugdjinn
Posts: 169
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 5:58 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:35 pm

FlightLevel360 wrote:
Aren't some of the 200s coming from Delta Connection? I remember flying on N871AS last summer when it was still part of the DL CNX fleet. Now it seems to be flying for UAX


Yes, two of those did fly DLC for ExpressJet before SkyWest Inc transferred them to the SkyWest certificate and ended all 200 flying by ExpressJet. Delta has said it wants to greatly reduce 50 seat flying and appears to be shedding CRJ700s as well in preference for the E-175 in SC configuration where it has to keep 70 seat planes for scope. And perhaps more importantly, is on its way to upgauging smaller cities to smaller mainline service from regional jets altogether with the 717/(MD95) and soon A220-100 (CS100).

The multi-million dollar question to United is will they follow suit? And are we about to see them beat DL to the punch? While Bombardier is struggling to ramp up production on the A220, Embraer can almost certainly start rolling E2s off the line for someone with deep pockets. Think on this:

What if United were to come to Embraer and ask for an E2-195 with an added boarding door (L2) just behind a 12 seat first class cabin taking about two rows of coach seats out of the back of the aircraft (reducing the three F/Y+/Y) config to 112 and adding a (coach) lavatory and (F)closet opposite that door. The aircraft would of course require three flight attendants, one seated at L1, one at L2, and one at the rear for takeoff, and landing. It allows the Y+ cabin to reach the exit rows, but not be too large, and allows for a lav in front of the Y+/Y cabin that is not in F. Too, like the 757, coach passengers aren't wandering through first during boarding allowing a much smoother process. I think it would work.

It also meets the NSNB needed by UA to get more 175s on property, and let go of the glut of 50 seaters, and Embraer could deliver them faster. If it makes business sense to Delta, it almost certainly makes business sense for UA. They have to be cheaper per seat than A-319s. And, as regional pilots come into the UA ranks, it's increasingly likely they will be type rated on the E-jets already, saving time and training dollars.

{Here's the thing that Kirby really needs to negotiate with the pilots though - at AA, a 65 seat CRJ 700 can replace every 50 seater without violating scope. That's 15 more seats including 9 first class and almost the same operating costs. AA stands to make a killing with them in all small markets. And Bombardier has figured out how to make the wing spar no longer a 20 yr life span... so they will fly on and on. If Kirby doesn't get a match through - UA will be left in the dust while Eagle accumulates every 700 built as their smallest plane, and prints money with them. SkyWest is wisely securing control of a large number of them, with this in mind. This is the scope question I'd be watching.}
 
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FlightLevel360
Posts: 406
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:26 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:58 pm

eugdjinn wrote:
FlightLevel360 wrote:
Aren't some of the 200s coming from Delta Connection? I remember flying on N871AS last summer when it was still part of the DL CNX fleet. Now it seems to be flying for UAX


Yes, two of those did fly DLC for ExpressJet before SkyWest Inc transferred them to the SkyWest certificate and ended all 200 flying by ExpressJet. Delta has said it wants to greatly reduce 50 seat flying and appears to be shedding CRJ700s as well in preference for the E-175 in SC configuration where it has to keep 70 seat planes for scope. And perhaps more importantly, is on its way to upgauging smaller cities to smaller mainline service from regional jets altogether with the 717/(MD95) and soon A220-100 (CS100).

The multi-million dollar question to United is will they follow suit? And are we about to see them beat DL to the punch? While Bombardier is struggling to ramp up production on the A220, Embraer can almost certainly start rolling E2s off the line for someone with deep pockets. Think on this:

What if United were to come to Embraer and ask for an E2-195 with an added boarding door (L2) just behind a 12 seat first class cabin taking about two rows of coach seats out of the back of the aircraft (reducing the three F/Y+/Y) config to 112 and adding a (coach) lavatory and (F)closet opposite that door. The aircraft would of course require three flight attendants, one seated at L1, one at L2, and one at the rear for takeoff, and landing. It allows the Y+ cabin to reach the exit rows, but not be too large, and allows for a lav in front of the Y+/Y cabin that is not in F. Too, like the 757, coach passengers aren't wandering through first during boarding allowing a much smoother process. I think it would work.

It also meets the NSNB needed by UA to get more 175s on property, and let go of the glut of 50 seaters, and Embraer could deliver them faster. If it makes business sense to Delta, it almost certainly makes business sense for UA. They have to be cheaper per seat than A-319s. And, as regional pilots come into the UA ranks, it's increasingly likely they will be type rated on the E-jets already, saving time and training dollars.

{Here's the thing that Kirby really needs to negotiate with the pilots though - at AA, a 65 seat CRJ 700 can replace every 50 seater without violating scope. That's 15 more seats including 9 first class and almost the same operating costs. AA stands to make a killing with them in all small markets. And Bombardier has figured out how to make the wing spar no longer a 20 yr life span... so they will fly on and on. If Kirby doesn't get a match through - UA will be left in the dust while Eagle accumulates every 700 built as their smallest plane, and prints money with them. SkyWest is wisely securing control of a large number of them, with this in mind. This is the scope question I'd be watching.}


They could have ordered the CSeries when they ordered all the 65 73Gs. That was the first big mistake.
I also don't like how they are adding ancient A319s instead of investing in a new fleet type. The UA Airbus fleet, in my opinion, is the worst out there (extraordinarily thin seats, no seatback entertainment).
To me, it will always be:
- Bombardier CSeries
- Airbus A321neoLR and A321neoXLR
- EMBRACER ERJ-170, ERJ-175, ERJ-190, and ERJ-195
- MITSUBUSHI MRJ

Anti narrowbody-long range-twinjet gang. Long live the A380 and 747!
 
DC8FanJet
Posts: 206
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 9:25 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:15 am

FlightLevel360 wrote:
eugdjinn wrote:
FlightLevel360 wrote:
Aren't some of the 200s coming from Delta Connection? I remember flying on N871AS last summer when it was still part of the DL CNX fleet. Now it seems to be flying for UAX


Yes, two of those did fly DLC for ExpressJet before SkyWest Inc transferred them to the SkyWest certificate and ended all 200 flying by ExpressJet. Delta has said it wants to greatly reduce 50 seat flying and appears to be shedding CRJ700s as well in preference for the E-175 in SC configuration where it has to keep 70 seat planes for scope. And perhaps more importantly, is on its way to upgauging smaller cities to smaller mainline service from regional jets altogether with the 717/(MD95) and soon A220-100 (CS100).

The multi-million dollar question to United is will they follow suit? And are we about to see them beat DL to the punch? While Bombardier is struggling to ramp up production on the A220, Embraer can almost certainly start rolling E2s off the line for someone with deep pockets. Think on this:

What if United were to come to Embraer and ask for an E2-195 with an added boarding door (L2) just behind a 12 seat first class cabin taking about two rows of coach seats out of the back of the aircraft (reducing the three F/Y+/Y) config to 112 and adding a (coach) lavatory and (F)closet opposite that door. The aircraft would of course require three flight attendants, one seated at L1, one at L2, and one at the rear for takeoff, and landing. It allows the Y+ cabin to reach the exit rows, but not be too large, and allows for a lav in front of the Y+/Y cabin that is not in F. Too, like the 757, coach passengers aren't wandering through first during boarding allowing a much smoother process. I think it would work.

It also meets the NSNB needed by UA to get more 175s on property, and let go of the glut of 50 seaters, and Embraer could deliver them faster. If it makes business sense to Delta, it almost certainly makes business sense for UA. They have to be cheaper per seat than A-319s. And, as regional pilots come into the UA ranks, it's increasingly likely they will be type rated on the E-jets already, saving time and training dollars.

{Here's the thing that Kirby really needs to negotiate with the pilots though - at AA, a 65 seat CRJ 700 can replace every 50 seater without violating scope. That's 15 more seats including 9 first class and almost the same operating costs. AA stands to make a killing with them in all small markets. And Bombardier has figured out how to make the wing spar no longer a 20 yr life span... so they will fly on and on. If Kirby doesn't get a match through - UA will be left in the dust while Eagle accumulates every 700 built as their smallest plane, and prints money with them. SkyWest is wisely securing control of a large number of them, with this in mind. This is the scope question I'd be watching.}


They could have ordered the CSeries when they ordered all the 65 73Gs. That was the first big mistake.
I also don't like how they are adding ancient A319s instead of investing in a new fleet type. The UA Airbus fleet, in my opinion, is the worst out there (extraordinarily thin seats, no seatback entertainment).


Hardly ancient, the 319s being added are 10 years old.
 
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FlightLevel360
Posts: 406
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:26 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:07 pm

DC8FanJet wrote:
FlightLevel360 wrote:
eugdjinn wrote:

Yes, two of those did fly DLC for ExpressJet before SkyWest Inc transferred them to the SkyWest certificate and ended all 200 flying by ExpressJet. Delta has said it wants to greatly reduce 50 seat flying and appears to be shedding CRJ700s as well in preference for the E-175 in SC configuration where it has to keep 70 seat planes for scope. And perhaps more importantly, is on its way to upgauging smaller cities to smaller mainline service from regional jets altogether with the 717/(MD95) and soon A220-100 (CS100).

The multi-million dollar question to United is will they follow suit? And are we about to see them beat DL to the punch? While Bombardier is struggling to ramp up production on the A220, Embraer can almost certainly start rolling E2s off the line for someone with deep pockets. Think on this:

What if United were to come to Embraer and ask for an E2-195 with an added boarding door (L2) just behind a 12 seat first class cabin taking about two rows of coach seats out of the back of the aircraft (reducing the three F/Y+/Y) config to 112 and adding a (coach) lavatory and (F)closet opposite that door. The aircraft would of course require three flight attendants, one seated at L1, one at L2, and one at the rear for takeoff, and landing. It allows the Y+ cabin to reach the exit rows, but not be too large, and allows for a lav in front of the Y+/Y cabin that is not in F. Too, like the 757, coach passengers aren't wandering through first during boarding allowing a much smoother process. I think it would work.

It also meets the NSNB needed by UA to get more 175s on property, and let go of the glut of 50 seaters, and Embraer could deliver them faster. If it makes business sense to Delta, it almost certainly makes business sense for UA. They have to be cheaper per seat than A-319s. And, as regional pilots come into the UA ranks, it's increasingly likely they will be type rated on the E-jets already, saving time and training dollars.

{Here's the thing that Kirby really needs to negotiate with the pilots though - at AA, a 65 seat CRJ 700 can replace every 50 seater without violating scope. That's 15 more seats including 9 first class and almost the same operating costs. AA stands to make a killing with them in all small markets. And Bombardier has figured out how to make the wing spar no longer a 20 yr life span... so they will fly on and on. If Kirby doesn't get a match through - UA will be left in the dust while Eagle accumulates every 700 built as their smallest plane, and prints money with them. SkyWest is wisely securing control of a large number of them, with this in mind. This is the scope question I'd be watching.}


They could have ordered the CSeries when they ordered all the 65 73Gs. That was the first big mistake.
I also don't like how they are adding ancient A319s instead of investing in a new fleet type. The UA Airbus fleet, in my opinion, is the worst out there (extraordinarily thin seats, no seatback entertainment).


Hardly ancient, the 319s being added are 10 years old.

The CZ ones aren't that old, I agree. I just hate the economy seats in them. The 737s have a much more comfortable product.
To me, it will always be:
- Bombardier CSeries
- Airbus A321neoLR and A321neoXLR
- EMBRACER ERJ-170, ERJ-175, ERJ-190, and ERJ-195
- MITSUBUSHI MRJ

Anti narrowbody-long range-twinjet gang. Long live the A380 and 747!
 
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hOMSaR
Posts: 2261
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:47 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:35 pm

eugdjinn wrote:
What if United were to come to Embraer and ask for an E2-195 with an added boarding door (L2) just behind a 12 seat first class cabin taking about two rows of coach seats out of the back of the aircraft


Why on Earth would they do something like that? The lack of boarding through L2 hasn’t hampered any other non-757 narrowbody in the world, and no airline is going to sacrifice usable capacity on a small jet just so economy passengers don’t have to walk past a couple of F seats on their way back.

Airbus even got rid of the L2 door on the latest A321 builds because it hampers cabin flexibility too much. Boeing hasn’t added one to any 737, even the MAX 10, yet UA is somehow going to pay for this on a plane half the size just so they can have a non-standard configuration? Is there even enough room between the engine and the front of the plane to stick another door?
The plural of Airbus is Airbuses. Airbii is not a word.
There is no 787-800, nor 787-900 or 747-800. It's 787-8, 787-9, and 747-8.
A321neoLR is also unnecessary. It's simply A321LR.
Airplanes don't have isles, they have aisles.
 
77H
Posts: 1533
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:27 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:03 pm

hOMSaR wrote:
eugdjinn wrote:
What if United were to come to Embraer and ask for an E2-195 with an added boarding door (L2) just behind a 12 seat first class cabin taking about two rows of coach seats out of the back of the aircraft


Why on Earth would they do something like that? The lack of boarding through L2 hasn’t hampered any other non-757 narrowbody in the world, and no airline is going to sacrifice usable capacity on a small jet just so economy passengers don’t have to walk past a couple of F seats on their way back.

Airbus even got rid of the L2 door on the latest A321 builds because it hampers cabin flexibility too much. Boeing hasn’t added one to any 737, even the MAX 10, yet UA is somehow going to pay for this on a plane half the size just so they can have a non-standard configuration? Is there even enough room between the engine and the front of the plane to stick another door?


Arguably the 7MX could and perhaps should have an L2 door ? Clearly that trend is going away with the larger narrowbody aircraft. As you mentioned, the L/R2 door is being removed in favor of 2 window exits and a gimpy door aft of the wings. I personally believe the ‘57 operators I’ve flown on make great use of space working around L/R2. For one, it splits first from economy and allows for lavs and galleys at the front end of economy. This splits up the bathroom queue between the front and middle/rear economy bathrooms. I also find it allows for quicker inflight service.

As far as boarding and deplaning.. having gate hooked up to L1 and L2 doesn’t serve much purpose as there is still only 1 row.

77H
 
codc10
Posts: 2653
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:10 pm

77H wrote:
Arguably the 7MX could and perhaps should have an L2 door ? Clearly that trend is going away with the larger narrowbody aircraft. As you mentioned, the L/R2 door is being removed in favor of 2 window exits and a gimpy door aft of the wings. I personally believe the ‘57 operators I’ve flown on make great use of space working around L/R2. For one, it splits first from economy and allows for lavs and galleys at the front end of economy. This splits up the bathroom queue between the front and middle/rear economy bathrooms. I also find it allows for quicker inflight service.

As far as boarding and deplaning.. having gate hooked up to L1 and L2 doesn’t serve much purpose as there is still only 1 row.

77H


None of which actually contribute to the bottom line for most operators given current mission profiles and service standards. The 2R galley has been effectively made redundant for most carriers by reduced service and more efficient cart packouts. The mid-cabin lav does not need an adjacent door and the only difference for premium cabin customers is a more pleasant 15 minutes during the boarding process without economy pax trudging through. OTOH, the full-size doors and slides are heavy, add complexity, and come at the cost of revenue seats.

The optimized 321neo configuration drops the 2nd set of doors since the position of the #1 engine made use of a jetbridge at 2L risky, if not outright impossible, depending on design. If the door can't be used for boarding, I have no problem with ditching it.
 
redrooster3
Posts: 356
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 2:35 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:18 am

787-8 slated too start UPP (United Premium Plus) and Polaris mod June 2019 and should be done by May 2020. 787-9 will begin August 2019, and end August 2020.

First 77W should begin retrofit August 5th for UPP. I believe 2131 willl be the first ship.
Marry one of us, and you'll fly for free!
 
gsg013
Posts: 527
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:03 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Thu Jul 26, 2018 3:15 am

will be pretty awesome to fly the 787 with polaris funny that the newest planes will be some of the last to get the most updated product
 
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msp747
Posts: 461
Joined: Sat May 29, 2010 6:42 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Fri Jul 27, 2018 2:55 am

FlightLevel360 wrote:
They could have ordered the CSeries when they ordered all the 65 73Gs. That was the first big mistake.
I also don't like how they are adding ancient A319s instead of investing in a new fleet type.

So is an order for E195-E2s or A220s not on the table anymore? I know Kirby has been quoted as saying he's not a fan, but I thought other UA execs had said they were interested in adding them. Are they able to add more 76 seat regional jets for every used A319 they buy? Or is that deal only good for a new fleet type?
 
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intotheair
Posts: 1844
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:49 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Fri Jul 27, 2018 3:07 am

msp747 wrote:
FlightLevel360 wrote:
They could have ordered the CSeries when they ordered all the 65 73Gs. That was the first big mistake.
I also don't like how they are adding ancient A319s instead of investing in a new fleet type.

So is an order for E195-E2s or A220s not on the table anymore? I know Kirby has been quoted as saying he's not a fan, but I thought other UA execs had said they were interested in adding them. Are they able to add more 76 seat regional jets for every used A319 they buy? Or is that deal only good for a new fleet type?


IIRC they can only add one 76-seater to UAX for every 1.25 frames of an E190, E195, 717, or A220-100 to the mainline fleet. Anything larger doesn't count. I think if UA were to add the E175 or CRJ-900/1000 to mainline, it would technically count too, though I don't think that's spelled out in the contract, and UA wouldn't be so stupid as to fly 76-seaters for mainline just to add more 76-seaters for UAX.

The way I see it, I don't think UA will add a 100-seater anytime soon. I think they thought about it, but they just can't seem to get the numbers to work to have a plane with so few seats at mainline rates. The plan going forward, at least in the near-term, seems to entail as many used 319s and 73Gs as they can find, keeping 50-seaters around longer, and eventually trying to stonewall the pilots into scope relief for more 76-seaters.
300 319 320 321 332 333 345 346 380 717 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 762 763 772 77W 788 789 CR2 CR7 CR9 CRK Q400 E175 DC10 MD82 MD90
AA AF AS AY AZ B6 BA BR DL F9 FI GA HA KF LH MI QX SK SN SQ UA US VY WN
 
VC10er
Posts: 4220
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Fri Jul 27, 2018 3:33 am

Is United also looking for used 737-700’s? I thought just A319/20s. The United 737-7 is actually a nicer ride IMHO in the front than the 800/900s because of the new F seat.
I hate the United economy seat (although they are attractive IMHO). Frankly I think every slim-line seat stinks. I always think of a United ac like a tube of toothpaste- squeeze at the bottom and push as much as possible up front.
Which airline was first to install slim-line seats?
I really miss the old ‘grey with rainbow stripe’ seats on UA!
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
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calpsafltskeds
Posts: 3078
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:29 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Fri Jul 27, 2018 5:39 am

Sad that the scope deal doesn't include an even percentage increase of all fleet types across the board. From my count since the merger, UA has added about 10% (71 aircraft) more than retired and many more on order. Maybe I'm missing something and I know sUA had a huge pulldown of the 733 fleet, but that was well before the merger.
As things always expand, it would be nice to at least get some relief as a good will gesture to allow 71 50 seat aircraft to be replaced by 70 or 76 seat aircraft. The current clause that excludes 319/2320/737NG and 73MAX aircraft from tradeouts is unworkable in the long run and negatively affecting UAs growth.
Additions
12 319
2 320
4 73G
16 738
120 739
6 39M
0 3JM
3 763
12 788
25 789
16 77W
+216
Removals
-37 735
-74 752
-10 762
-24 744
-145
 
UA444
Posts: 2792
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:03 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Fri Jul 27, 2018 7:26 am

calpsafltskeds wrote:
Sad that the scope deal doesn't include an even percentage increase of all fleet types across the board. From my count since the merger, UA has added about 10% (71 aircraft) more than retired and many more on order. Maybe I'm missing something and I know sUA had a huge pulldown of the 733 fleet, but that was well before the merger.
As things always expand, it would be nice to at least get some relief as a good will gesture to allow 71 50 seat aircraft to be replaced by 70 or 76 seat aircraft. The current clause that excludes 319/2320/737NG and 73MAX aircraft from tradeouts is unworkable in the long run and negatively affecting UAs growth.
Additions
12 319
2 320
4 73G
16 738
120 739
6 39M
0 3JM
3 763
12 788
25 789
16 77W
+216
Removals
-37 735
-74 752
-10 762
-24 744
-145

They’re not going to budge on scope nor should they. Adding used 737s or A319s is not equal to adding brand new 100 seaters to really bring back mainline flying lost from 2004-2009. The language is quite clear. If they want more 76 seaters they need to add a 100 seater mainline in order to ensure that they don’t later down the line try to add that type of plane to UAX and further erode mainline flying.

They still are far behind AA and DL in narrowbody capacity and adding the 773 and 787 to your fleet additions to make them look better than they really are is grossly misleading. And all those 739s just replaced other mainline aircraft and weren’t for growth.
Last edited by UA444 on Fri Jul 27, 2018 7:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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intotheair
Posts: 1844
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:26 am

VC10er wrote:
Is United also looking for used 737-700’s? I thought just A319/20s. The United 737-7 is actually a nicer ride IMHO in the front than the 800/900s because of the new F seat.
I hate the United economy seat (although they are attractive IMHO). Frankly I think every slim-line seat stinks. I always think of a United ac like a tube of toothpaste- squeeze at the bottom and push as much as possible up front.
Which airline was first to install slim-line seats?
I really miss the old ‘grey with rainbow stripe’ seats on UA!


Nothing since the four 73Gs they bought from Copa, though they always say they're looking for the right opportunity for more.

My favorite UA Y seats were the royal blue ones in the PMUA 752s and 319/320s. Now I avoid the UA Airbus if I can. Something about the slimlines on the 737 fleet feel marginally more acceptable.

calpsafltskeds wrote:
Sad that the scope deal doesn't include an even percentage increase of all fleet types across the board. From my count since the merger, UA has added about 10% (71 aircraft) more than retired and many more on order. Maybe I'm missing something and I know sUA had a huge pulldown of the 733 fleet, but that was well before the merger.
As things always expand, it would be nice to at least get some relief as a good will gesture to allow 71 50 seat aircraft to be replaced by 70 or 76 seat aircraft. The current clause that excludes 319/2320/737NG and 73MAX aircraft from tradeouts is unworkable in the long run and negatively affecting UAs growth.


That's likely almost exactly the argument UA management will make to ALPA. I still think that'll be a very tough sell though. Mainline pilots still have very little reason to give up scope.
300 319 320 321 332 333 345 346 380 717 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 762 763 772 77W 788 789 CR2 CR7 CR9 CRK Q400 E175 DC10 MD82 MD90
AA AF AS AY AZ B6 BA BR DL F9 FI GA HA KF LH MI QX SK SN SQ UA US VY WN
 
VC10er
Posts: 4220
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Fri Jul 27, 2018 10:40 am

The A319/20s from legacy UA had grey slim-lines. I think I recall reading here somewhere that they would not be switched out for the latest blue slim-line seat, and that UA will just live with the inconsistency. Is that true? I know the renovation of CZ Airbus fleet get the blue seat, I just don’t know what they are planning to do with the grey ones.
With all the capital being spent on Polaris refits, lounges and the new gate area seating with tables (which IMHO) think are amazing, both in looks and comfort- I’d figure the last thing on the “to do” list is changing the grey seats. Perhaps if they were red they would move fast to change them, but grey is a prominent UA color, so they don’t really offend visually. I find all slim-line seats a horror.
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
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intotheair
Posts: 1844
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Fri Jul 27, 2018 10:56 am

VC10er wrote:
The A319/20s from legacy UA had grey slim-lines. I think I recall reading here somewhere that they would not be switched out for the latest blue slim-line seat, and that UA will just live with the inconsistency. Is that true? I know the renovation of CZ Airbus fleet get the blue seat, I just don’t know what they are planning to do with the grey ones.


The grey leatherette slimlines were definitely post-merger on the Airbus planes. I'm talking about the seats before then. PMUA gradually replaced the classic grey and rainbow cloth seats with these cloth navy/blue seats before the merger. The Tedcraft had these seats too (in all-Y, of course). Then came the grey slimlines after the merger.





I thought UA was replacing the grey covering on the Airbus slimlines with the navy leatherette design that's gradually making its way to nearly every fleet type, though I could be wrong. Maybe they've switched all of them already? Again, something about those seats are so uncomfortable that I book away from the Airbus fleet.
300 319 320 321 332 333 345 346 380 717 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 762 763 772 77W 788 789 CR2 CR7 CR9 CRK Q400 E175 DC10 MD82 MD90
AA AF AS AY AZ B6 BA BR DL F9 FI GA HA KF LH MI QX SK SN SQ UA US VY WN
 
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calpsafltskeds
Posts: 3078
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:37 pm

UA444 wrote:
They’re not going to budge on scope nor should they. Adding used 737s or A319s is not equal to adding brand new 100 seaters to really bring back mainline flying lost from 2004-2009. The language is quite clear. If they want more 76 seaters they need to add a 100 seater mainline in order to ensure that they don’t later down the line try to add that type of plane to UAX and further erode mainline flying.

They still are far behind AA and DL in narrowbody capacity and adding the 773 and 787 to your fleet additions to make them look better than they really are is grossly misleading. And all those 739s just replaced other mainline aircraft and weren’t for growth.

OK, let's remove widebodies and from my count since the merger, UA has added almost twice the narrowbodies that were removed since the merger. 160 adds/82 removals. UA has 129 narrow bodies on order plus 34 319s sked to be added and pilots won't budge on using any of those aircraft as calculations to increase Express flying of 76+ seaters. Do we have any narrowbodies set to retire at this point?
There are numerous 787-9s on order, A350-900s and the potential of more 787s, 77Ws to replace 763s in the future. Widebodies need pilots, too!

I know sUA had a huge pulldown of the 737 fleet, but that was well before the merger and UA had the longest bankruptcy in history. The pilots rejected a merger with US Airways. Maybe in the long run that was a good thing, but management can't be totally responsible for resulting reduction of 100 aircraft, closure of Ted, fuel price surges and near bottom of customer satisfaction? The UA/CO merger has things moving forward after a few years of issues, including 787 problems not related to anyone at UA.

UA should be looking to the future, not the past. I stand by my position that the scope clause should get some relief from pilots to move the airline forward to expand the fleet, increase jobs and get close to DL and AA. Maybe this takes a raise or could a second pay tier be placed on small narrowbodied mainline aircraft that is required to make 100 seater profitable. UA might be able to guarantee the new pilots would get raises to the regular tier after a negotiated number of years.

Narrow Additions
12 319 - up to 34 fleet adds in the works
2 320 -
4 73G
16 738
120 739
6 39M - 29 more on order
0 3JM - 100 on order
+160 (163 more on order)
Removals
-37 735
-74 752
-82
 
VC10er
Posts: 4220
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Fri Jul 27, 2018 2:04 pm

I can’t tell the difference- after 3 hours the pain and discomfort are equal.
To me it’s one of the worst things to have happened in the industry. But I imagine if one airline like United went back to the old thicker and cushioned Y seats they wouldn’t see an ROI.
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
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calpsafltskeds
Posts: 3078
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Fri Jul 27, 2018 3:11 pm

UA444 you don't think things are out of wack? Is this the way to success?
AA =>70 seats 386, 50 seats 198 , 66% large RJ
DL =>70 seats 335, 50 seats 134 , 71% large RJ
UA =>70 seats 255, 50 seats 356 , 42% large RJ
 
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LAXintl
Posts: 24050
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Fri Jul 27, 2018 3:17 pm

More 50-seaters on the way.

ExpressJet (US) reached an agreement with United Airlines (US) to a three-year contract for 20 used CRJ200s. The 20 CRJ200s are expected to be sourced from within SkyWest’s fleet through contract expirations with other partners scheduled for 2H 2018. The 20 CRJ200s are expected to be placed into service with United between the latter part of 2018 and early 2019.

Also contract for some CRJ700s from Skywest extended.

SkyWest (US) reached an agreement with United Airlines (US) to extend their existing flying contract on 19 CRJ700s operated by SkyWest. These aircraft previously had contract expirations scheduled for mid-2019/2020 and were extended for three years.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
glbltrvlr
Posts: 975
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Fri Jul 27, 2018 3:46 pm

gsg013 wrote:
will be pretty awesome to fly the 787 with polaris funny that the newest planes will be some of the last to get the most updated product


Those new airplanes will also come with brand new seating. No, they aren't the Polaris seats, but they are perfectly acceptable. I've flown them to China and had no complaints. Makes far more economic sense to pull out seats that have been in service for over a decade rather than replace relatively new seats.
 
glbltrvlr
Posts: 975
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:28 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Fri Jul 27, 2018 3:48 pm

LAXintl wrote:
More 50-seaters on the way.

ExpressJet (US) reached an agreement with United Airlines (US) to a three-year contract for 20 used CRJ200s. The 20 CRJ200s are expected to be sourced from within SkyWest’s fleet through contract expirations with other partners scheduled for 2H 2018. The 20 CRJ200s are expected to be placed into service with United between the latter part of 2018 and early 2019.


Interesting. Wonder if these are just replacements for older CRJ200s? Thought UA said they weren't going to expand 50 seat service.
 
FlyHossD
Posts: 1991
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:45 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Fri Jul 27, 2018 5:05 pm

calpsafltskeds wrote:
I know sUA had a huge pulldown of the 737 fleet, but that was well before the merger and UA had the longest bankruptcy in history. The pilots rejected a merger with US Airways. Maybe in the long run that was a good thing, but management can't be totally responsible for resulting reduction of 100 aircraft, closure of Ted, fuel price surges and near bottom of customer satisfaction? The UA/CO merger has things moving forward after a few years of issues, including 787 problems not related to anyone at UA.

UA should be looking to the future, not the past. I stand by my position that the scope clause should get some relief from pilots to move the airline forward to expand the fleet, increase jobs and get close to DL and AA.


You're welcome to your opinion, of course, but you're also conveniently forgetting that when UA parked their 737s - and furloughed over 1400 pilots - it was in exchange for 70 seats RJs AND keeping the UA pilot's pension. And then Tilton cancelled the pension anyway (while keeping his own, of course).

What's the axiom? Fool me once, shame one you - fool me twice, shame on me. So I think it's natural and appropriate that the UAL pilot group remembers the past (when adding 70 seat RJs meant LESS UA pilots).
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
UA777FO
Posts: 20
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Fri Jul 27, 2018 5:19 pm

intotheair wrote:
msp747 wrote:
FlightLevel360 wrote:
They could have ordered the CSeries when they ordered all the 65 73Gs. That was the first big mistake.
I also don't like how they are adding ancient A319s instead of investing in a new fleet type.

So is an order for E195-E2s or A220s not on the table anymore? I know Kirby has been quoted as saying he's not a fan, but I thought other UA execs had said they were interested in adding them. Are they able to add more 76 seat regional jets for every used A319 they buy? Or is that deal only good for a new fleet type?


IIRC they can only add one 76-seater to UAX for every 1.25 frames of an E190, E195, 717, or A220-100 to the mainline fleet. Anything larger doesn't count. I think if UA were to add the E175 or CRJ-900/1000 to mainline, it would technically count too, though I don't think that's spelled out in the contract, and UA wouldn't be so stupid as to fly 76-seaters for mainline just to add more 76-seaters for UAX.

The way I see it, I don't think UA will add a 100-seater anytime soon. I think they thought about it, but they just can't seem to get the numbers to work to have a plane with so few seats at mainline rates. The plan going forward, at least in the near-term, seems to entail as many used 319s and 73Gs as they can find, keeping 50-seaters around longer, and eventually trying to stonewall the pilots into scope relief for more 76-seaters.

Delta does just fine with a 100 seater(717/soon a220) at mainline rates and those Delta rates are higher ual’s current rates for the 100 seat class airplane. I think they are just running the number on the complexities of adding another fleet type. Pilot cost are at very bottom of the equation.
 
ord
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Fri Jul 27, 2018 5:22 pm

Have any photos surfaced yet of United's first 787-10? Didn't it roll out over three weeks ago?
 
SFOtoORD
Posts: 1201
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Fri Jul 27, 2018 5:33 pm

calpsafltskeds wrote:
UA444 you don't think things are out of wack? Is this the way to success?
AA =>70 seats 386, 50 seats 198 , 66% large RJ
DL =>70 seats 335, 50 seats 134 , 71% large RJ
UA =>70 seats 255, 50 seats 356 , 42% large RJ


Interesting Data. Any idea how it compares to 5 years ago and 10 years ago?
 
Tkt96
Posts: 33
Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Fri Jul 27, 2018 6:15 pm

calpsafltskeds wrote:
UA444 wrote:
They’re not going to budge on scope nor should they. Adding used 737s or A319s is not equal to adding brand new 100 seaters to really bring back mainline flying lost from 2004-2009. The language is quite clear. If they want more 76 seaters they need to add a 100 seater mainline in order to ensure that they don’t later down the line try to add that type of plane to UAX and further erode mainline flying.

They still are far behind AA and DL in narrowbody capacity and adding the 773 and 787 to your fleet additions to make them look better than they really are is grossly misleading. And all those 739s just replaced other mainline aircraft and weren’t for growth.

OK, let's remove widebodies and from my count since the merger, UA has added almost twice the narrowbodies that were removed since the merger. 160 adds/82 removals. UA has 129 narrow bodies on order plus 34 319s sked to be added and pilots won't budge on using any of those aircraft as calculations to increase Express flying of 76+ seaters. Do we have any narrowbodies set to retire at this point?
There are numerous 787-9s on order, A350-900s and the potential of more 787s, 77Ws to replace 763s in the future. Widebodies need pilots, too!

I know sUA had a huge pulldown of the 737 fleet, but that was well before the merger and UA had the longest bankruptcy in history. The pilots rejected a merger with US Airways. Maybe in the long run that was a good thing, but management can't be totally responsible for resulting reduction of 100 aircraft, closure of Ted, fuel price surges and near bottom of customer satisfaction? The UA/CO merger has things moving forward after a few years of issues, including 787 problems not related to anyone at UA.

UA should be looking to the future, not the past. I stand by my position that the scope clause should get some relief from pilots to move the airline forward to expand the fleet, increase jobs and get close to DL and AA. Maybe this takes a raise or could a second pay tier be placed on small narrowbodied mainline aircraft that is required to make 100 seater profitable. UA might be able to guarantee the new pilots would get raises to the regular tier after a negotiated number of years.

Narrow Additions
12 319 - up to 34 fleet adds in the works
2 320 -
4 73G
16 738
120 739
6 39M - 29 more on order
0 3JM - 100 on order
+160 (163 more on order)
Removals
-37 735
-74 752
-82



Why do you have such a desire for outsourcing United's flying??? Why not just have United pilots fly United's planes? How would you like it if your job gets outsourced...that should save your company some money and make shareholders happy.

I'll be honest..it's disgusting to hear someone advocate for outsourcing any job.
 
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ikolkyo
Posts: 2873
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:47 pm

Tkt96 wrote:
calpsafltskeds wrote:
UA444 wrote:
They’re not going to budge on scope nor should they. Adding used 737s or A319s is not equal to adding brand new 100 seaters to really bring back mainline flying lost from 2004-2009. The language is quite clear. If they want more 76 seaters they need to add a 100 seater mainline in order to ensure that they don’t later down the line try to add that type of plane to UAX and further erode mainline flying.

They still are far behind AA and DL in narrowbody capacity and adding the 773 and 787 to your fleet additions to make them look better than they really are is grossly misleading. And all those 739s just replaced other mainline aircraft and weren’t for growth.

OK, let's remove widebodies and from my count since the merger, UA has added almost twice the narrowbodies that were removed since the merger. 160 adds/82 removals. UA has 129 narrow bodies on order plus 34 319s sked to be added and pilots won't budge on using any of those aircraft as calculations to increase Express flying of 76+ seaters. Do we have any narrowbodies set to retire at this point?
There are numerous 787-9s on order, A350-900s and the potential of more 787s, 77Ws to replace 763s in the future. Widebodies need pilots, too!

I know sUA had a huge pulldown of the 737 fleet, but that was well before the merger and UA had the longest bankruptcy in history. The pilots rejected a merger with US Airways. Maybe in the long run that was a good thing, but management can't be totally responsible for resulting reduction of 100 aircraft, closure of Ted, fuel price surges and near bottom of customer satisfaction? The UA/CO merger has things moving forward after a few years of issues, including 787 problems not related to anyone at UA.

UA should be looking to the future, not the past. I stand by my position that the scope clause should get some relief from pilots to move the airline forward to expand the fleet, increase jobs and get close to DL and AA. Maybe this takes a raise or could a second pay tier be placed on small narrowbodied mainline aircraft that is required to make 100 seater profitable. UA might be able to guarantee the new pilots would get raises to the regular tier after a negotiated number of years.

Narrow Additions
12 319 - up to 34 fleet adds in the works
2 320 -
4 73G
16 738
120 739
6 39M - 29 more on order
0 3JM - 100 on order
+160 (163 more on order)
Removals
-37 735
-74 752
-82



Why do you have such a desire for outsourcing United's flying??? Why not just have United pilots fly United's planes? How would you like it if your job gets outsourced...that should save your company some money and make shareholders happy.

I'll be honest..it's disgusting to hear someone advocate for outsourcing any job.


I think its more about getting rid of all 50 seaters getting more 76 seat aircraft which everyone wants to happen.
 
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LAXintl
Posts: 24050
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:51 pm

And even more 50-seaters:



ST. LOUIS, July 27, 2018 /PRNewswire/ -- Trans States Airlines announced today that it has entered into a three-year agreement with United Airlines to operate at least seven additional Embraer 145 aircraft under the United Express regional service brand. The additional aircraft are the beginning of a long-term commitment to growing the airline's United Express program. The first seven aircraft will be phased into revenue service starting in October of this year, with all aircraft in service by January of 2019.

Trans States also announced that negotiations were underway for a three-year extension to its existing United contract. Trans States currently operates a fleet of 51 Embraer 145 aircraft, of which 36 are in service for United.


https://www.prnewswire.com/news-release ... 87981.html

=
Last edited by LAXintl on Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
EssentialBusDC
Posts: 82
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Fri Jul 27, 2018 10:30 pm

calpsafltskeds wrote:
UA444 you don't think things are out of wack? Is this the way to success?
AA =>70 seats 386, 50 seats 198 , 66% large RJ
DL =>70 seats 335, 50 seats 134 , 71% large RJ
UA =>70 seats 255, 50 seats 356 , 42% large RJ



And do you know why Delta has more large RJ’s?

Because they bought a small narrowbody for mainline in the form of the 717s. As others have posted the UAL pilots costs for a 100 seater on the books are actually cheaper then Delta’s, yet Delta makes it work, and very profitably.

All UAL has to do is buy a NSNB as agreed to in the current contract and they will mirror Deltas fleet. They have had that option for years and have failed to utilize it.

There is no need for the United pilots to change scope for “goodwill” reasons. They are not holding back the growth of the company. The company is holding themselves back.
 
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calpsafltskeds
Posts: 3078
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Fri Jul 27, 2018 10:45 pm

The jobs were outsourced years ago as every major did. Do those who disagree believe UA would have survived without outsourcing? Was the pilot group assisting in the process to retain the most UA jobs during the 2000's? I surely am not defending what UA, CO or any major did in the past during hard times. Mistakes were made, but the economic situation following 9/11 placed the industry in a survival mode. After a long, painful haul UA is now back profitable and can grow with an Express fleet mix that looks more like DL or AA.

The question is not to outsource current jobs, rather to increase profits to then increase mainline flying. More seats will increase feed to mainline flights, which hire more mainline pilots and moves more pilots to bigger aircraft and/or the left seat.

Are all UA pilots back to work from layoffs? If so, then how does exchanging 76 seat aircraft for 50 hurt UA pilots? If there are still those on layoffs, when they are recalled with 163 narrowbodies coming online, will the pilots agree to allow 76 seat aircraft to replace 50 seat aircraft?

How about UA and pilots put a limit on percentage of total seats, total aircraft, or some other factor that allows increased express operations as mainline aircraft are added? With such limits, give UA the fleet flexibility within 76 seats and under category to grow and the result will be increase wages and jobs in all categories.
 
UAinAUS
Posts: 168
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:11 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:47 am

More torture tubes on the way:

CR2: Skywest has announced in its SEC reporting that they have secured contract for 20 additional CR2’s to be flown by ExpressJet for UAX. These will begin entering the fleet this year.

E45: TransStates has announced a contract to increase it’s E145 flying for UAX again beginning this year. These frames will be transferred from current UAX operators so will not be additional frames to the fleet.

CR7: Skywest has extended the contract on its 19 UAX CR7s. These frames are required for Aspen and other mountain operations, and are now contracted through 2023.
 
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janders
Moderator
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:02 am

UAinAUS wrote:
More torture tubes on the way:
.


Did you read a few posts up?

:scratchchin:

Reply 1476 and 1485 indicate this already exactly..
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
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cosyr
Posts: 1430
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:02 pm

calpsafltskeds wrote:
The jobs were outsourced years ago as every major did. Do those who disagree believe UA would have survived without outsourcing? Was the pilot group assisting in the process to retain the most UA jobs during the 2000's? I surely am not defending what UA, CO or any major did in the past during hard times. Mistakes were made, but the economic situation following 9/11 placed the industry in a survival mode. After a long, painful haul UA is now back profitable and can grow with an Express fleet mix that looks more like DL or AA.

The question is not to outsource current jobs, rather to increase profits to then increase mainline flying. More seats will increase feed to mainline flights, which hire more mainline pilots and moves more pilots to bigger aircraft and/or the left seat.

Are all UA pilots back to work from layoffs? If so, then how does exchanging 76 seat aircraft for 50 hurt UA pilots? If there are still those on layoffs, when they are recalled with 163 narrowbodies coming online, will the pilots agree to allow 76 seat aircraft to replace 50 seat aircraft?

How about UA and pilots put a limit on percentage of total seats, total aircraft, or some other factor that allows increased express operations as mainline aircraft are added? With such limits, give UA the fleet flexibility within 76 seats and under category to grow and the result will be increase wages and jobs in all categories.

How did UA operate those BAe-146's under Express years ago, until oil got too high? Did they not write a scope clause in those days?
 
United1
Posts: 3909
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:17 pm

cosyr wrote:
calpsafltskeds wrote:
The jobs were outsourced years ago as every major did. Do those who disagree believe UA would have survived without outsourcing? Was the pilot group assisting in the process to retain the most UA jobs during the 2000's? I surely am not defending what UA, CO or any major did in the past during hard times. Mistakes were made, but the economic situation following 9/11 placed the industry in a survival mode. After a long, painful haul UA is now back profitable and can grow with an Express fleet mix that looks more like DL or AA.

The question is not to outsource current jobs, rather to increase profits to then increase mainline flying. More seats will increase feed to mainline flights, which hire more mainline pilots and moves more pilots to bigger aircraft and/or the left seat.

Are all UA pilots back to work from layoffs? If so, then how does exchanging 76 seat aircraft for 50 hurt UA pilots? If there are still those on layoffs, when they are recalled with 163 narrowbodies coming online, will the pilots agree to allow 76 seat aircraft to replace 50 seat aircraft?

How about UA and pilots put a limit on percentage of total seats, total aircraft, or some other factor that allows increased express operations as mainline aircraft are added? With such limits, give UA the fleet flexibility within 76 seats and under category to grow and the result will be increase wages and jobs in all categories.

How did UA operate those BAe-146's under Express years ago, until oil got too high? Did they not write a scope clause in those days?


Those BAe 146s were covered under the scope clause of the day.

UA and ALPA have negotiated different scope clauses over the years. This one revolves around adding a new small mainline jet for additional 76 seat RJs, one in the past was tied to a ratio of mainline jets to RJs...

Don't know if ALPA will budge on scope this time (they have "evolved" in the past) but they don't have to stick to the same format.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
UA444
Posts: 2792
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:03 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Sat Jul 28, 2018 10:26 pm

calpsafltskeds wrote:
UA444 you don't think things are out of wack? Is this the way to success?
AA =>70 seats 386, 50 seats 198 , 66% large RJ
DL =>70 seats 335, 50 seats 134 , 71% large RJ
UA =>70 seats 255, 50 seats 356 , 42% large RJ

I’m all for dumping more 50 seaters, however, there are still too many UAX flights out there, 50 seater or 70 seater, that justify mainline, that were mainline in the not too distant past, that competitors have no problem flying mainline flights to. They still have a substantial deficit in terms of mainline capacity compared to AA and DL.

The agreement made it clear that if they want more E75s that they would have to add a new small narrowbody like DL with the 717. Many of the planes they’ve added over the last 8 years were replacements, either for the 757-222 fleet or ex- CO 737 classics that were hanging around after the merger. There has not been true, bonafide mainline narrowbody growth to a large degree in many years. The used 319s are a start, but they need a 100-125 seat airplane and it needs to be a mainline aircraft. They are about 150 narrowbodies short where they need to be.

The C series/A220 is even more attractive now that Airbus is backing it and can ensure it thrives in the market. I just don’t have a clue what they are waiting for.
 
sbaflyer
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 7:44 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:26 pm

UA444 wrote:
calpsafltskeds wrote:
UA444 you don't think things are out of wack? Is this the way to success?
AA =>70 seats 386, 50 seats 198 , 66% large RJ
DL =>70 seats 335, 50 seats 134 , 71% large RJ
UA =>70 seats 255, 50 seats 356 , 42% large RJ

I’m all for dumping more 50 seaters, however, there are still too many UAX flights out there, 50 seater or 70 seater, that justify mainline, that were mainline in the not too distant past, that competitors have no problem flying mainline flights to. They still have a substantial deficit in terms of mainline capacity compared to AA and DL.

The agreement made it clear that if they want more E75s that they would have to add a new small narrowbody like DL with the 717. Many of the planes they’ve added over the last 8 years were replacements, either for the 757-222 fleet or ex- CO 737 classics that were hanging around after the merger. There has not been true, bonafide mainline narrowbody growth to a large degree in many years. The used 319s are a start, but they need a 100-125 seat airplane and it needs to be a mainline aircraft. They are about 150 narrowbodies short where they need to be.

The C series/A220 is even more attractive now that Airbus is backing it and can ensure it thrives in the market. I just don’t have a clue what they are waiting for.


Kirby keeps saying that the small narrowbody economics don't work. They are waiting for scope relief or an offer they can't refuse from Airbus or Boeing/Embraer.
 
EssentialBusDC
Posts: 82
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:06 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:40 am

sbaflyer wrote:
UA444 wrote:
calpsafltskeds wrote:
UA444 you don't think things are out of wack? Is this the way to success?
AA =>70 seats 386, 50 seats 198 , 66% large RJ
DL =>70 seats 335, 50 seats 134 , 71% large RJ
UA =>70 seats 255, 50 seats 356 , 42% large RJ

I’m all for dumping more 50 seaters, however, there are still too many UAX flights out there, 50 seater or 70 seater, that justify mainline, that were mainline in the not too distant past, that competitors have no problem flying mainline flights to. They still have a substantial deficit in terms of mainline capacity compared to AA and DL.

The agreement made it clear that if they want more E75s that they would have to add a new small narrowbody like DL with the 717. Many of the planes they’ve added over the last 8 years were replacements, either for the 757-222 fleet or ex- CO 737 classics that were hanging around after the merger. There has not been true, bonafide mainline narrowbody growth to a large degree in many years. The used 319s are a start, but they need a 100-125 seat airplane and it needs to be a mainline aircraft. They are about 150 narrowbodies short where they need to be.

The C series/A220 is even more attractive now that Airbus is backing it and can ensure it thrives in the market. I just don’t have a clue what they are waiting for.


Kirby keeps saying that the small narrowbody economics don't work. They are waiting for scope relief or an offer they can't refuse from Airbus or Boeing/Embraer.


Hard to take his comment at face value when Delta has been flying the 717, and soon to be the A220 at mainline, while outperforming United in profit margin and gross profit and most every other comparative metric. So obviously the economics can work.
 
VC10er
Posts: 4220
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:06 am

Does Embraer even still manufacture the 145 for passenger service? I know they will still build the frame for a Legacy Exec Jet.
As much as I prefer the E-175+, for a flight of 1.5 hours it beats an NJ Transit bus.
One Q is since the sturdy, safe E-145 needle jet will be in service for a while, are interior upgrades on the “To-Do” list for United?
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
User avatar
calpsafltskeds
Posts: 3078
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:29 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:48 am

Wow, the merger happened 8 years ago and I forgot the 737-500s were still flying for CO. That reduces the narrowbody adds since the merger from 78 to 51. I believe that is a real narrowbody growth strategy.

We all want larger aircraft to replace lots of 50 seaters and a mix of 76 seaters or a 100-120 seat aircraft is needed. You would think UA would have asked for some scope relief while going after lots of the 319s that are in that seating range. Maybe they did and the pilots said no way. If so, the pilots had management over a barrel and management thought they needed the aircraft enough to buy the 319s without any scope relief. That may indicated UA really doesn't think mainline pilots on brand new 100 seaters pencils out. Maybe they're right and maybe they're wrong. It's also interesting that DL, who's known for flying jets to older ages and jets that are not as fuel efficient as UA, would be buying new while UA would be buying used.

UA444, UA has 163 narrowbodies on order, does that do the trick for the 150 narrowbodies you believe UA needs? I can understand if think these will cover maybe 15 sUA 752s and/or other potential retirements or there would be yearly increases as population and business increases. I just believe that growth in demand should be allowed in Express fleet growth to larger seat sizes.
 
User avatar
calpsafltskeds
Posts: 3078
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:29 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:21 pm

772:
N204UA sked to exit XMN 2763/31Jul, then 896/31 - should have Polaris/PE, but still shows 3 class seat map
N786UA sked to enter XMN2738/31Jul, looks like it will receive PE, hopefully short mod stay

788:
N26906 entered PVG 2759/24Jul
 
User avatar
msp747
Posts: 461
Joined: Sat May 29, 2010 6:42 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:36 pm

UA444 wrote:
The C series/A220 is even more attractive now that Airbus is backing it and can ensure it thrives in the market. I just don’t have a clue what they are waiting for.

I think the same goes for the E195-E2. And with Boeing's future backing and the fact that Embraer still doesn't have a US customer for that plane, I'd think UA could get a good deal on them.
 
SFOtoORD
Posts: 1201
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:26 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:52 pm

EssentialBusDC wrote:
sbaflyer wrote:
UA444 wrote:
I’m all for dumping more 50 seaters, however, there are still too many UAX flights out there, 50 seater or 70 seater, that justify mainline, that were mainline in the not too distant past, that competitors have no problem flying mainline flights to. They still have a substantial deficit in terms of mainline capacity compared to AA and DL.

The agreement made it clear that if they want more E75s that they would have to add a new small narrowbody like DL with the 717. Many of the planes they’ve added over the last 8 years were replacements, either for the 757-222 fleet or ex- CO 737 classics that were hanging around after the merger. There has not been true, bonafide mainline narrowbody growth to a large degree in many years. The used 319s are a start, but they need a 100-125 seat airplane and it needs to be a mainline aircraft. They are about 150 narrowbodies short where they need to be.

The C series/A220 is even more attractive now that Airbus is backing it and can ensure it thrives in the market. I just don’t have a clue what they are waiting for.


Kirby keeps saying that the small narrowbody economics don't work. They are waiting for scope relief or an offer they can't refuse from Airbus or Boeing/Embraer.


Hard to take his comment at face value when Delta has been flying the 717, and soon to be the A220 at mainline, while outperforming United in profit margin and gross profit and most every other comparative metric. So obviously the economics can work.


We know DL is profitable, but is there data that shows the 717 is profitable? And how would this acquisition costs compare with a new CSeries or 195-E2?
 
iahcsr
Posts: 4777
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 1999 2:59 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:53 pm

msp747 wrote:
UA444 wrote:
The C series/A220 is even more attractive now that Airbus is backing it and can ensure it thrives in the market. I just don’t have a clue what they are waiting for.

I think the same goes for the E195-E2. And with Boeing's future backing and the fact that Embraer still doesn't have a US customer for that plane, I'd think UA could get a good deal on them.

The UA scope clause specifies only certain aircraft... I don’t think the E2 is one of them. But I don’t see why the pilot group wouldn’t be a bit flexible on that point.. Just so long as mainline pilots fly them.
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