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United1
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:38 pm

iahcsr wrote:
msp747 wrote:
UA444 wrote:
The C series/A220 is even more attractive now that Airbus is backing it and can ensure it thrives in the market. I just don’t have a clue what they are waiting for.

I think the same goes for the E195-E2. And with Boeing's future backing and the fact that Embraer still doesn't have a US customer for that plane, I'd think UA could get a good deal on them.

The UA scope clause specifies only certain aircraft... I don’t think the E2 is one of them. But I don’t see why the pilot group wouldn’t be a bit flexible on that point.. Just so long as mainline pilots fly them.


I can check the contract when I get home but I think we had this conversation on a prior thread. The E2 version of either the 190 or 195 is covered by the current scope clause.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
EssentialBusDC
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:43 pm

SFOtoORD wrote:
EssentialBusDC wrote:
sbaflyer wrote:

Kirby keeps saying that the small narrowbody economics don't work. They are waiting for scope relief or an offer they can't refuse from Airbus or Boeing/Embraer.


Hard to take his comment at face value when Delta has been flying the 717, and soon to be the A220 at mainline, while outperforming United in profit margin and gross profit and most every other comparative metric. So obviously the economics can work.


We know DL is profitable, but is there data that shows the 717 is profitable? And how would this acquisition costs compare with a new CSeries or 195-E2?

Do i have any data? No, just making an assumption.

But if the 717 Fleet isn’t profitable, at 80+ airframes, then the rest of Delta outperforms United by an even larger margin. Which should concern United and investors even more. And I seriously doubt that Delta would operate such a large unprofitable segment of their business. A few routes or markets yes as part of a bigger picture view, but for a whole Fleet? No way.
 
SFOtoORD
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:10 pm

EssentialBusDC wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:
EssentialBusDC wrote:

Hard to take his comment at face value when Delta has been flying the 717, and soon to be the A220 at mainline, while outperforming United in profit margin and gross profit and most every other comparative metric. So obviously the economics can work.


We know DL is profitable, but is there data that shows the 717 is profitable? And how would this acquisition costs compare with a new CSeries or 195-E2?

Do i have any data? No, just making an assumption.

But if the 717 Fleet isn’t profitable, at 80+ airframes, then the rest of Delta outperforms United by an even larger margin. Which should concern United and investors even more. And I seriously doubt that Delta would operate such a large unprofitable segment of their business. A few routes or markets yes as part of a bigger picture view, but for a whole Fleet? No way.


It’s a fleet of used airframes so low acquisition cost. Perhaps why UA held off on CSeries was due to cost.
 
sldispatcher
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:58 pm

I hardly think a company as large as Embraer would produce an aircraft that can't be operated at a profit in one of the world's premier markets (USA). I think Kirby is playing a game but keeping us in smaller outstations in CRJ-200's is insulting. The Embraer line is fantastic to fly in as a consumer and they should never really be referred to as a regional aircraft in my book.
I look forward to seeing what UA does in the next 6-12 months with orders.
 
SFOtoORD
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:31 pm

sldispatcher wrote:
I hardly think a company as large as Embraer would produce an aircraft that can't be operated at a profit in one of the world's premier markets (USA). I think Kirby is playing a game but keeping us in smaller outstations in CRJ-200's is insulting. The Embraer line is fantastic to fly in as a consumer and they should never really be referred to as a regional aircraft in my book.
I look forward to seeing what UA does in the next 6-12 months with orders.


JetBlue and Air Canada didn’t like their 190s much. AA hasn’t been complimentary of theirs either.
 
EssentialBusDC
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:23 am

SFOtoORD wrote:
EssentialBusDC wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:

We know DL is profitable, but is there data that shows the 717 is profitable? And how would this acquisition costs compare with a new CSeries or 195-E2?

Do i have any data? No, just making an assumption.

But if the 717 Fleet isn’t profitable, at 80+ airframes, then the rest of Delta outperforms United by an even larger margin. Which should concern United and investors even more. And I seriously doubt that Delta would operate such a large unprofitable segment of their business. A few routes or markets yes as part of a bigger picture view, but for a whole Fleet? No way.


It’s a fleet of used airframes so low acquisition cost. Perhaps why UA held off on CSeries was due to cost.

No doubt that the 717 leases (from SWA) and purchases of other 717’s are lower cost then buying new.

But if you believe Boeing then the cost for a brand new C series is not very expensive either.

United wants more 76 seaters, they have an agreed upon path to do it via the current Pilots contract, but just can’t pull the trigger. The cost? The negotiations? Who knows?
 
iahcsr
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:42 am

United1 wrote:
iahcsr wrote:
msp747 wrote:
I think the same goes for the E195-E2. And with Boeing's future backing and the fact that Embraer still doesn't have a US customer for that plane, I'd think UA could get a good deal on them.

The UA scope clause specifies only certain aircraft... I don’t think the E2 is one of them. But I don’t see why the pilot group wouldn’t be a bit flexible on that point.. Just so long as mainline pilots fly them.


I can check the contract when I get home but I think we had this conversation on a prior thread. The E2 version of either the 190 or 195 is covered by the current scope clause.

If true so much the better... but B/ER will still have to make some strong magic to make it happen.
Working Hard, Flying Right Friendly....
 
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calpsafltskeds
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:16 am

Using the chart on page 29 of this thread and Wikipedia on the C220 series, i get these estimates.
73G vs. 738 fuel burn is 8% lower
A220-300 is stated to be 21% lower than the 73G
So, if the B220-100 is 8% lower than the A220-300 (comparing 73G/738), then the B220-100 fuel burn is 24% lower than the 73G (which is about the same as the 319).
If UA is buying used A319s, at UA's load factor, they would gain about $10k revenue per day vs. the A220-100 on five 900 mile flights at UA's average 15 cents a mile.
The A220 would save about $5.1k/day on fuel using $3/gal.
With crew cost the same, the C220-100 would lose $5k/day vs, the used A319 and ownership cost would have to be higher on the A220-100.

So, UA has probably checked out the possibility of canceling the 34 A319s from China Southern and easyJet and buy 40 A220s to get scope relief to swap out 32 50 seaters with 76 seaters? This would be a minor gain by pilots, a gain on 32 larger RJs with the balance being if revenue lost by the 319 to 220 swap is equaled by the revenue gain of 50 to 76 seat aircraft. Also the 76 seaters would have additional expenses vs the 50 seat aircraft.

I assume the A220-300 isn't going to be allowed by the scope clause as its too large. If it were available to have scope relief the revenue would be zero and ownership costs differences would probably be less than the fuel saved. That would be a win-win for both UA and pilots as I'm sure UA would buy more than 40 220-300s as the aircraft would have good economics.

Why do the pilots want to force UA to buy 100 seat aircraft when they could have more pilots and more profit for the airline with 125 seats and 76 seats?
 
Tkt96
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:25 pm

The pilots want to capture that flying because until they do there is always the risk a court will give it away in a bankruptcy or it will somehow slip away. As we all know with 70/76 seaters, once that flying is gone, it's gone forever and will not return to mainline. After 15 years of being beaten up due to recessions/ market busts/ global epidemics/ merger "efficiencies"/ furloughs/ fleet retirements/ pay cuts there is finally a little bit of leverage to bring this flying to mainline.

It seems obvious there will be a big demand for this gauge of flying in the future due to gate runway and airspace constraints and it's vital to capture it at mainline before it's too late.
Last edited by Tkt96 on Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:34 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:29 pm

calpsafltskeds wrote:
Using the chart on page 29 of this thread and Wikipedia on the C220 series, i get these estimates.
73G vs. 738 fuel burn is 8% lower
A220-300 is stated to be 21% lower than the 73G
So, if the B220-100 is 8% lower than the A220-300 (comparing 73G/738), then the B220-100 fuel burn is 24% lower than the 73G (which is about the same as the 319).
If UA is buying used A319s, at UA's load factor, they would gain about $10k revenue per day vs. the A220-100 on five 900 mile flights at UA's average 15 cents a mile.
The A220 would save about $5.1k/day on fuel using $3/gal.
With crew cost the same, the C220-100 would lose $5k/day vs, the used A319 and ownership cost would have to be higher on the A220-100.

So, UA has probably checked out the possibility of canceling the 34 A319s from China Southern and easyJet and buy 40 A220s to get scope relief to swap out 32 50 seaters with 76 seaters? This would be a minor gain by pilots, a gain on 32 larger RJs with the balance being if revenue lost by the 319 to 220 swap is equaled by the revenue gain of 50 to 76 seat aircraft. Also the 76 seaters would have additional expenses vs the 50 seat aircraft.

I assume the A220-300 isn't going to be allowed by the scope clause as its too large. If it were available to have scope relief the revenue would be zero and ownership costs differences would probably be less than the fuel saved. That would be a win-win for both UA and pilots as I'm sure UA would buy more than 40 220-300s as the aircraft would have good economics.

Why do the pilots want to force UA to buy 100 seat aircraft when they could have more pilots and more profit for the airline with 125 seats and 76 seats?


I’m gonna assume you mean A220. You’re using A220, B220 and C220 throughout this whole post.
 
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calpsafltskeds
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:30 pm

772:
N204UA sked to exit XMN 2763/31Jul, then 896/31 - Now showing Polaris with PE
Since N223UA entered XMN a day earlier than N204UA, one would expect it will be completed soon.
N78008 sked to exit HKG 180/1Aug, maint
​​​​​​​N78009 sked to enter HKG 179/30Jul, maint
 
fun2fly
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:30 pm

calpsafltskeds wrote:
772:
N204UA sked to exit XMN 2763/31Jul, then 896/31 - Now showing Polaris with PE
Since N223UA entered XMN a day earlier than N204UA, one would expect it will be completed soon.
N78008 sked to exit HKG 180/1Aug, maint
​​​​​​​N78009 sked to enter HKG 179/30Jul, maint


So, 45 days to get PE done. Not too bad. Approx. 7 more units to be completed in 2018 if working two lines. 5 done (inc. two w/o PE) so approx. 12 by end of 2018.
 
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STT757
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:59 pm

I hope they're not waiting to finish the Pratt powered 777s before starting the GE-90 777s, the 224s fly some long routes and could use the new Polaris and PE refurbishments. It I'll be interesting how the 777 fleet utilization might change chatter the FA groups are kfinally merged.
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sbaflyer
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:34 pm

STT757 wrote:
I hope they're not waiting to finish the Pratt powered 777s before starting the GE-90 777s, the 224s fly some long routes and could use the new Polaris and PE refurbishments. It I'll be interesting how the 777 fleet utilization might change chatter the FA groups are kfinally merged.


Think the Pratt are priority so that they can remove first.
 
fun2fly
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:38 pm

sbaflyer wrote:
STT757 wrote:
I hope they're not waiting to finish the Pratt powered 777s before starting the GE-90 777s, the 224s fly some long routes and could use the new Polaris and PE refurbishments. It I'll be interesting how the 777 fleet utilization might change chatter the FA groups are kfinally merged.


Think the Pratt are priority so that they can remove first.


And they should be as they are older, have first, the least preferred UA business class, etc. I still can't figure 1 plane every 10 days unless they take a lot more out of service.
 
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FlightLevel360
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:54 am

sbaflyer wrote:
STT757 wrote:
I hope they're not waiting to finish the Pratt powered 777s before starting the GE-90 777s, the 224s fly some long routes and could use the new Polaris and PE refurbishments. It I'll be interesting how the 777 fleet utilization might change chatter the FA groups are kfinally merged.


Think the Pratt are priority so that they can remove first.


Hope they don't retire them soon...
To me, it will always be:
- Bombardier CSeries
- Airbus A321neoLR and A321neoXLR
- EMBRACER ERJ-170, ERJ-175, ERJ-190, and ERJ-195
- MITSUBUSHI MRJ

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calpsafltskeds
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue Jul 31, 2018 2:42 am

We were all discussing the A220 issue and I was wondering if UA would decide to solve some issues by trading the value of the A350 order in to Airbus for a combination of A220 and A321LR aircraft.

Then UA blow off the MOM aircraft and buy A321LR to replace the sCO 752s, 788s to replace the 763 fleet, 789s to replace the 764 fleet and 78J/77W to replace the 772 fleet. The 77W would have to cover heavier demand ULH flying, 789 covering the ULH of lessor demand and the 78J would cover about 90% of 772 international flying.

Does anyone think the 78J with a lower premium seating percentage might be a tip off that it could enter Hawaiian/GUM flying. How about the 78J on IAH/ORD/EWR-HNL and HNL-GUM-NRT? More seats, more cargo capacity, no fuel stops or weight restrictions.
 
FlyHossD
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:09 am

[quote="calpsafltskeds"]...Then UA blow off the MOM aircraft and buy A321LR to replace the sCO 752s,[quote]

Retire the sCO/RR powered 752s before the sUA/PW powered 752s? Why?
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
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SumChristianus
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:24 am

calpsafltskeds wrote:
We were all discussing the A220 issue and I was wondering if UA would decide to solve some issues by trading the value of the A350 order in to Airbus for a combination of A220 and A321LR aircraft.

Then UA blow off the MOM aircraft and buy A321LR to replace the sCO 752s, 788s to replace the 763 fleet, 789s to replace the 764 fleet and 78J/77W to replace the 772 fleet. The 77W would have to cover heavier demand ULH flying, 789 covering the ULH of lessor demand and the 78J would cover about 90% of 772 international flying.

Does anyone think the 78J with a lower premium seating percentage might be a tip off that it could enter Hawaiian/GUM flying. How about the 78J on IAH/ORD/EWR-HNL and HNL-GUM-NRT? More seats, more cargo capacity, no fuel stops or weight restrictions.

Sounds like a great idea to me. Add planes with no ""new"" capital expenditure, buy Trent-powered 787s to cover the Rolls Royce commitment, and solve the scope problem by adding A220s.
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atcsundevil
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:53 am

FlightLevel360 wrote:
sbaflyer wrote:
Think the Pratt are priority so that they can remove first.


Hope they don't retire them soon...

They won't be. The Pratts (sUA 772s) still have F. The priority is to completely phase out the F product, and the sUA 772s will be the last three class fleet type after the final few 763s are reconfigured. The majority of that fleet are still less than 20 years old, so they won't be retired anytime soon.
 
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intotheair
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:21 am

STT757 wrote:
I hope they're not waiting to finish the Pratt powered 777s before starting the GE-90 777s, the 224s fly some long routes and could use the new Polaris and PE refurbishments. It I'll be interesting how the 777 fleet utilization might change chatter the FA groups are kfinally merged.


Yeah, I was just wondering about that — won't the FA groups finally be merged in October? Any chance we might see some shuffling of the fleet overall after that?
300 319 320 321 332 333 345 346 380 717 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 762 763 772 77W 788 789 CR2 CR7 CR9 CRK Q400 E175 DC10 MD82 MD90
AA AF AS AY AZ B6 BA BR DL F9 FI GA HA KF LH MI QX SK SN SQ UA US VY WN
 
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calpsafltskeds
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:08 am

I was talking long term on the 772 fleet. Not a fan of the potential MOM aircraft which could be something like a 753 or 762. Asian and American carriers want a different product. Personally I think the MOM aircraft needs to be as narrow as possible to handle 8 across in Y with an 18in seat and LD3s below. 7 across add just one seat and an aisle and a funky cargo pit. Something similar to an A310 or the 788 with reduced range.

Sorry, didn't mention the sUA 752s. I would assume the small fleet would be retired first and replaced by some of the 737MAX10 deliveries.
 
VC10er
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:05 pm

I actually don’t understand: does a mainline pilot make so much that it ruins the profit of a full 76/100 seat aircraft? Is that the issue with scope clauses. I am at zero understanding these limitations and agreements.
In a UA configuration,how many passengers would an E2-195 carry?
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
jayunited
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:22 pm

calpsafltskeds wrote:
We were all discussing the A220 issue and I was wondering if UA would decide to solve some issues by trading the value of the A350 order in to Airbus for a combination of A220 and A321LR aircraft.

Then UA blow off the MOM aircraft and buy A321LR to replace the sCO 752s, 788s to replace the 763 fleet, 789s to replace the 764 fleet and 78J/77W to replace the 772 fleet. The 77W would have to cover heavier demand ULH flying, 789 covering the ULH of lessor demand and the 78J would cover about 90% of 772 international flying.

Does anyone think the 78J with a lower premium seating percentage might be a tip off that it could enter Hawaiian/GUM flying. How about the 78J on IAH/ORD/EWR-HNL and HNL-GUM-NRT? More seats, more cargo capacity, no fuel stops or weight restrictions.


From the rumors (and I stress rumors) I've heard UA has a higher interest in the MOM than A321LR and while UA is very please with their 787s they still believe it is not the perfect aircraft for EWR/IAD/ORD-Europe. On the flip it is not all bad news for Airbus UA is interested in A220 but is still trying to figure out issues surrounding adding a new fleet type and making sure its profitable not even the rumor mill at Willis Tower has a timetable on when a decision will be made.

As far as the 78J I have been thinking about exactly what you just suggested I think on a year around basis there will be enough frames to cover IAH/ORD/EWR-HNL, HNL-GUM-NRT while still deploying this aircraft type on routes on popular summer routes like EWR-BCN/MAD/DUB/FCO.
 
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adamblang
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:24 pm

The discussion about small mainline / large RJ and scope should probably be viewed in the context that the next amendable date for the ALPA contract is January 31, 2019.
 
jetmatt777
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:01 pm

adamblang wrote:
The discussion about small mainline / large RJ and scope should probably be viewed in the context that the next amendable date for the ALPA contract is January 31, 2019.


And it’s likely they will try and get something to a vote before then. Attitude of the rank and file change drastically out of the company’s favor once the amenable date passes.
 
SFOtoORD
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:17 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
adamblang wrote:
The discussion about small mainline / large RJ and scope should probably be viewed in the context that the next amendable date for the ALPA contract is January 31, 2019.


And it’s likely they will try and get something to a vote before then. Attitude of the rank and file change drastically out of the company’s favor once the amenable date passes.


Agree. Hopefully the company and ALPA can work together to find some good ways to grow the airline for the long term and mutually benefit. And ramp down the 50 seaters too.
 
UALORD
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:43 pm

Here are CASM's from Q12018 to compare costs of operating 100-seaters at mainline:
--------------------------------------------------------
Carrier | AIRCRAFT | CASM | Cap/dep | psgr/dep LF | gal fuel/100miles
American E190 $9.5 99 74 74.9% 228
American A319 $8.3 128 105 81.1% 222

JetBlue E190 $11.8 100 82 81.8% 181

Delta 717 $11.9 110 89 80.6% 219
Delta A319 $9.2 132 105 79.9% 212

Hawaiian 717 $22.3 126 103 81.2% 341

United A319 $9.7 128 107 83.2% 208

--------------------------------------------------------
These numbers speak volume to why United thinks it's cheaper to invest in used 319's rather than invest in new/used 100-seaters. Interesting to see how fuel burn is about the same between 319/717/190.
 
VC10er
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:15 am

I’m so sorry that I’m not understanding the charts. By Dec 31 2018, how many 763’s will have Polaris, and how many 3 class 772’s will still be flying? I’ve had the privilege to get bumped into F from GRU/EWR. All you get is a far superior seat to the J class seats behind you. However on a flight where I’m gonna sleep 8 out of the 9.5 hours, it’s actually comfortable enough. I actually loved them when they were first launched (what year was that?) as they were the only flat bed in J at the time. I just put myself back to a time when I wasn’t spoiled and I’m fine. But I keep thinking every time I’m in Global First it’s my last...then POOF there it is again!
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
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msp747
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:44 am

VC10er wrote:
In a UA configuration,how many passengers would an E2-195 carry?

Looks like it would be roughly 120 passengers.
https://tinyurl.com/y8zljrnv
 
hkcanadaexpat
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:11 am

VC10er wrote:
I’m so sorry that I’m not understanding the charts. By Dec 31 2018, how many 763’s will have Polaris, and how many 3 class 772’s will still be flying? I’ve had the privilege to get bumped into F from GRU/EWR. All you get is a far superior seat to the J class seats behind you. However on a flight where I’m gonna sleep 8 out of the 9.5 hours, it’s actually comfortable enough. I actually loved them when they were first launched (what year was that?) as they were the only flat bed in J at the time. I just put myself back to a time when I wasn’t spoiled and I’m fine. But I keep thinking every time I’m in Global First it’s my last...then POOF there it is again!

By Dec 2018, you should have 14x 763 Polaris and 21x 763 Old J in the active fleet with 3x ex-HA with Polaris but high-J configuration due imminently for active service.
 
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prchan
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:43 am

VC10er wrote:
I actually loved them when they were first launched (what year was that?) as they were the only flat bed in J at the time.

I guess around 2010 IPTE conversions started. I still remember following the progress of the conversions here...
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:28 am

prchan wrote:
VC10er wrote:
I actually loved them when they were first launched (what year was that?) as they were the only flat bed in J at the time.

I guess around 2010 IPTE conversions started. I still remember following the progress of the conversions here...

They started earlier than that — at least 2008, possibly 2007.
 
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FlightLevel360
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:31 pm

hkcanadaexpat wrote:
VC10er wrote:
I’m so sorry that I’m not understanding the charts. By Dec 31 2018, how many 763’s will have Polaris, and how many 3 class 772’s will still be flying? I’ve had the privilege to get bumped into F from GRU/EWR. All you get is a far superior seat to the J class seats behind you. However on a flight where I’m gonna sleep 8 out of the 9.5 hours, it’s actually comfortable enough. I actually loved them when they were first launched (what year was that?) as they were the only flat bed in J at the time. I just put myself back to a time when I wasn’t spoiled and I’m fine. But I keep thinking every time I’m in Global First it’s my last...then POOF there it is again!

By Dec 2018, you should have 14x 763 Polaris and 21x 763 Old J in the active fleet with 3x ex-HA with Polaris but high-J configuration due imminently for active service.


Who thought it was a good idea to make all window seats economy plus while the only regular seats are the ones in the center section?!
To me, it will always be:
- Bombardier CSeries
- Airbus A321neoLR and A321neoXLR
- EMBRACER ERJ-170, ERJ-175, ERJ-190, and ERJ-195
- MITSUBUSHI MRJ

Anti narrowbody-long range-twinjet gang. Long live the A380 and 747!
 
United1
Posts: 4194
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:14 pm

FlightLevel360 wrote:
hkcanadaexpat wrote:
VC10er wrote:
I’m so sorry that I’m not understanding the charts. By Dec 31 2018, how many 763’s will have Polaris, and how many 3 class 772’s will still be flying? I’ve had the privilege to get bumped into F from GRU/EWR. All you get is a far superior seat to the J class seats behind you. However on a flight where I’m gonna sleep 8 out of the 9.5 hours, it’s actually comfortable enough. I actually loved them when they were first launched (what year was that?) as they were the only flat bed in J at the time. I just put myself back to a time when I wasn’t spoiled and I’m fine. But I keep thinking every time I’m in Global First it’s my last...then POOF there it is again!

By Dec 2018, you should have 14x 763 Polaris and 21x 763 Old J in the active fleet with 3x ex-HA with Polaris but high-J configuration due imminently for active service.


Who thought it was a good idea to make all window seats economy plus while the only regular seats are the ones in the center section?!


Assuming you are referring to the High-J 763 configuration....there are a few window seats in the last few rows that are not Y+. It sort of makes sense though as either premiers or people who pay for Y+ will get the preferred "2" seats in the 2-3-2 configuration.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
User avatar
adamblang
Posts: 1265
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 5:47 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:41 pm

FlightLevel360 wrote:
Who thought it was a good idea to make all window seats economy plus while the only regular seats are the ones in the center section?!

The people responsible for making the extra-money seats extra desirable.
 
VC10er
Posts: 4273
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:58 pm

Polaris Lounge question: any discussion about LHR? The old Global First Lounge (with the round glass restaurant and Big Ben bar back) is gorgeous but too small for Polaris- but the rest of the club, which is actually quite nice, doesn’t look easy to divide. Won’t they want their 2 Lounge offer at LHR? One day not too far away there will be a lot of “new” Polaris seats to LHR..and United could use better word of mouth PR in London among premium passengers.
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
iahcsr
Posts: 4777
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 1999 2:59 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:05 am

78J
N17002 Has been on the CHS flight line for almost a month and as yet no B1 (presume it’s been painted at least). Given delivery is not planned for another three months B must not be in any rush to get it ready. If it’s indeed painted I’m surprised no images are to be seen on line.
Working Hard, Flying Right Friendly....
 
snuggs28
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:29 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:21 am

A couple of things here:

The High J config 767 birds are actually the Ex Hawaiian Birds.

The E195 Aircraft. If we do get them will be Mainline Aircraft. As they are part of the Aircraft scope in the Pilot Contract. The Scope also has the A380 in it also. So don't make any conclusions.
 
United1
Posts: 4194
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:49 am

snuggs28 wrote:
A couple of things here:

The High J config 767 birds are actually the Ex Hawaiian Birds.

The E195 Aircraft. If we do get them will be Mainline Aircraft. As they are part of the Aircraft scope in the Pilot Contract. The Scope also has the A380 in it also. So don't make any conclusions.


Yup...NSNA is defined as:

"1-L-25 “New Small Narrowbody Aircraft” means a CS100, E190 or E195 aircraft, provided that
such aircraft is neither in the Company Fleet as of the date of signing of this Agreement nor
acquired through merger or acquisition of another air carrier."

I was trying to sort out of the E2 is considered a NSNA, there is a LOA that can be interpreted one of two ways...either it simply sets the pay rate for those aircraft or makes them a NSNA. There is a lot of wiggle room for both sides to interpret, grieve and finally sort that out.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
Runway28L
Posts: 2101
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:35 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:59 am

iahcsr wrote:
78J
N17002 Has been on the CHS flight line for almost a month and as yet no B1 (presume it’s been painted at least). Given delivery is not planned for another three months B must not be in any rush to get it ready. If it’s indeed painted I’m surprised no images are to be seen on line.

Even more strange, N17002 doesn't bring up any search results on Google or links to it being registered to Boeing or United. Only thing I could find was the registration currently being assigned to a Cessna 150.
 
UAinAUS
Posts: 243
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:11 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:05 am

iahcsr wrote:
78J
N17002 Has been on the CHS flight line for almost a month and as yet no B1 (presume it’s been painted at least). Given delivery is not planned for another three months B must not be in any rush to get it ready. If it’s indeed painted I’m surprised no images are to be seen on line.


That aircraft on the flight line is actually N14001. The tail numbers have been assigned based on delivery date, not line number. The test aircraft going to UA will actually be the 4th 78J delivered to UA. I’ve heard that N14001 is in fact painted, but haven’t seen an image yet. It’s set for delivery Nov 1st, with numbers 2, and 3 (and maybe 4) delivered early December.
 
VC10er
Posts: 4273
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:37 am

The “high J” 767s, Eg; the ex-Hawaiian birds, how many more Polaris seats are in those 763’s vs others? Why would UA have or need different 763 configurations? Do certain routes for the 763 call for a higher Polaris seat count?
On the surface it would just seem to be more of a headache to have a sub-high premium fleet of 763’s that would be problematic to switch out.
Thanks
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
iahcsr
Posts: 4777
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 1999 2:59 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:41 am

UAinAUS wrote:
iahcsr wrote:
78J
N17002 Has been on the CHS flight line for almost a month and as yet no B1 (presume it’s been painted at least). Given delivery is not planned for another three months B must not be in any rush to get it ready. If it’s indeed painted I’m surprised no images are to be seen on line.


That aircraft on the flight line is actually N14001. The tail numbers have been assigned based on delivery date, not line number. The test aircraft going to UA will actually be the 4th 78J delivered to UA. I’ve heard that N14001 is in fact painted, but haven’t seen an image yet. It’s set for delivery Nov 1st, with numbers 2, and 3 (and maybe 4) delivered early December.

Indeed :o :eek: :shock: :? .. that breaks the pattern used in the past. ... But there’s no rule saying it must be that way... so whatever tickles their pickle I guess. :spin: BTW N14001 doesn’t show on google yet either so it may not fly anytime soon.
Working Hard, Flying Right Friendly....
 
User avatar
calpsafltskeds
Posts: 3234
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:29 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:26 pm

That high J configuration doesn't make any sense, especially if its gong to be a small 3 aircraft fleet.

UA is currently using the remaining 3 class 763s to cover most of ORD-LHR and aircraft are being occasionally positioned on specific ORD-IAH-ORD flights for maintenance visits. That has occurred 14 times since the middle of June, so about 1/3 of the time and doesn't appear to be something like every third day. So, UA can't rope 3 763s onto ORD-LHR on a regular basis. Since seat counts on the loaded 3 ORD-LHR flights are lower than other 763s, swaps don't create an oversale situation on the TATL legs and I haven't looked to see if the maintenance legs ORD-IAH-ORD have a oversale issue when 3 class units are subbed. TATL swaps to 2 class units may not provide enough time to sell the extra seats. Surely a temporary situation with some drawbacks.

The HA 763s don't look any different than UA 763s - no door 2. However, it will take equally major changes to go into the Polaris or high J Polaris configuration. So, why the high J?
Do the HA units have reduced payload capacity?
Is there a maintenance reason to have a separate sub-fleet?
Why would UA have a special configuration for a max of 3 TATL roundtrips daily?
Could these aircraft be flown on a high premium routing that would include routine maintenance built into the schedule without positioning trips? LHR, EWR?
How would potential oversales be handled on flights where a high J aircraft was rerouted?
While the high J offers high premium potential, the total seat size of the aircraft is 16 seats below the current 3 class units, which are very premium heavy and being eliminated?
Could these aircraft be placed on transcons (EWR-SFO) where maintenance would be built into the scheduled?

OK, my best shot would be a 3 aircraft routing on current GVA flights that would have a built in 12:50 maintenance visit in SFO every third day.
SFO 0800 EWR 1628, EWR 1830-GVA 0835 (EWR-GVA reschedule 35 minutes later to make work)
GVA 1145 IAD 1445, IAD 1745 GVA 0740
GVA 1035 EWR 1325, EWR 1550 SFO 1910 (GVA-EWR rescheduled 1:15 to allow swapout in GVA of 2 units on the ground)

Maybe UA will make more high J units and load them onto LHR? But 3 won't do it.
 
codc10
Posts: 2911
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:01 pm

Nowhere did anyone say the high-J configuration was destined for only 3 frames... just that the ex-HA 763 now on property would be the first to get it...
 
george77300
Posts: 1131
Joined: Sat May 06, 2017 8:33 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:07 pm

VC10er wrote:
The “high J” 767s, Eg; the ex-Hawaiian birds, how many more Polaris seats are in those 763’s vs others? Why would UA have or need different 763 configurations? Do certain routes for the 763 call for a higher Polaris seat count?
On the surface it would just seem to be more of a headache to have a sub-high premium fleet of 763’s that would be problematic to switch out.
Thanks


As he asked is there a seat map anywhere, not on United's website yet?

Yes there are many routes with more premium demand than others. I would imagine a lot of the LHR and GVA flights are good candidates for the first frames.

United has a large enough fleet for a subfleet to be worth it.

calpsafltskeds wrote:
That high J configuration doesn't make any sense, especially if its gong to be a small 3 aircraft fleet.

UA is currently using the remaining 3 class 763s to cover most of ORD-LHR and aircraft are being occasionally positioned on specific ORD-IAH-ORD flights for maintenance visits. That has occurred 14 times since the middle of June, so about 1/3 of the time and doesn't appear to be something like every third day. So, UA can't rope 3 763s onto ORD-LHR on a regular basis. Since seat counts on the loaded 3 ORD-LHR flights are lower than other 763s, swaps don't create an oversale situation on the TATL legs and I haven't looked to see if the maintenance legs ORD-IAH-ORD have a oversale issue when 3 class units are subbed. TATL swaps to 2 class units may not provide enough time to sell the extra seats. Surely a temporary situation with some drawbacks.

The HA 763s don't look any different than UA 763s - no door 2. However, it will take equally major changes to go into the Polaris or high J Polaris configuration. So, why the high J?
Do the HA units have reduced payload capacity?
Is there a maintenance reason to have a separate sub-fleet?
Why would UA have a special configuration for a max of 3 TATL roundtrips daily?
Could these aircraft be flown on a high premium routing that would include routine maintenance built into the schedule without positioning trips? LHR, EWR?
How would potential oversales be handled on flights where a high J aircraft was rerouted?
While the high J offers high premium potential, the total seat size of the aircraft is 16 seats below the current 3 class units, which are very premium heavy and being eliminated?
Could these aircraft be placed on transcons (EWR-SFO) where maintenance would be built into the scheduled?

OK, my best shot would be a 3 aircraft routing on current GVA flights that would have a built in 12:50 maintenance visit in SFO every third day.
SFO 0800 EWR 1628, EWR 1830-GVA 0835 (EWR-GVA reschedule 35 minutes later to make work)
GVA 1145 IAD 1445, IAD 1745 GVA 0740
GVA 1035 EWR 1325, EWR 1550 SFO 1910 (GVA-EWR rescheduled 1:15 to allow swapout in GVA of 2 units on the ground)

Maybe UA will make more high J units and load them onto LHR? But 3 won't do it.


I don't think they only plan on 3. They never said that. I'm sure more will be configured in the High-J config.
 
User avatar
ikolkyo
Posts: 3001
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:43 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:11 pm

george77300 wrote:
VC10er wrote:
The “high J” 767s, Eg; the ex-Hawaiian birds, how many more Polaris seats are in those 763’s vs others? Why would UA have or need different 763 configurations? Do certain routes for the 763 call for a higher Polaris seat count?
On the surface it would just seem to be more of a headache to have a sub-high premium fleet of 763’s that would be problematic to switch out.
Thanks


As he asked is there a seat map anywhere, not on United's website yet?

Yes there are many routes with more premium demand than others. I would imagine a lot of the LHR and GVA flights are good candidates for the first frames.

United has a large enough fleet for a subfleet to be worth it.

calpsafltskeds wrote:
That high J configuration doesn't make any sense, especially if its gong to be a small 3 aircraft fleet.

UA is currently using the remaining 3 class 763s to cover most of ORD-LHR and aircraft are being occasionally positioned on specific ORD-IAH-ORD flights for maintenance visits. That has occurred 14 times since the middle of June, so about 1/3 of the time and doesn't appear to be something like every third day. So, UA can't rope 3 763s onto ORD-LHR on a regular basis. Since seat counts on the loaded 3 ORD-LHR flights are lower than other 763s, swaps don't create an oversale situation on the TATL legs and I haven't looked to see if the maintenance legs ORD-IAH-ORD have a oversale issue when 3 class units are subbed. TATL swaps to 2 class units may not provide enough time to sell the extra seats. Surely a temporary situation with some drawbacks.

The HA 763s don't look any different than UA 763s - no door 2. However, it will take equally major changes to go into the Polaris or high J Polaris configuration. So, why the high J?
Do the HA units have reduced payload capacity?
Is there a maintenance reason to have a separate sub-fleet?
Why would UA have a special configuration for a max of 3 TATL roundtrips daily?
Could these aircraft be flown on a high premium routing that would include routine maintenance built into the schedule without positioning trips? LHR, EWR?
How would potential oversales be handled on flights where a high J aircraft was rerouted?
While the high J offers high premium potential, the total seat size of the aircraft is 16 seats below the current 3 class units, which are very premium heavy and being eliminated?
Could these aircraft be placed on transcons (EWR-SFO) where maintenance would be built into the scheduled?

OK, my best shot would be a 3 aircraft routing on current GVA flights that would have a built in 12:50 maintenance visit in SFO every third day.
SFO 0800 EWR 1628, EWR 1830-GVA 0835 (EWR-GVA reschedule 35 minutes later to make work)
GVA 1145 IAD 1445, IAD 1745 GVA 0740
GVA 1035 EWR 1325, EWR 1550 SFO 1910 (GVA-EWR rescheduled 1:15 to allow swapout in GVA of 2 units on the ground)

Maybe UA will make more high J units and load them onto LHR? But 3 won't do it.


I don't think they only plan on 3. They never said that. I'm sure more will be configured in the High-J config.


Here is the seatmap
Image
 
VC10er
Posts: 4273
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:25 pm

Wow! Another aircraft that is half Polaris, then with PE pushes it to over 50 premium. Similar to the 772.
United is being very ambitious about selling lots of Polaris! I hope it works for them, they certainly will be very attractive to walk through.
Thanks for the map, I love looking at them.
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
george77300
Posts: 1131
Joined: Sat May 06, 2017 8:33 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:28 pm

VC10er wrote:
Wow! Another aircraft that is half Polaris, then with PE pushes it to over 50 premium. Similar to the 772.
United is being very ambitious about selling lots of Polaris! I hope it works for them, they certainly will be very attractive to walk through.
Thanks for the map, I love looking at them.


Agreed except for the Economy pax. In a 767 and only 5 normal economy window seats. 5! That is not good at all. The centre section is economy and the window sides are mostly economy plus.

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