Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
iahcsr
Posts: 4777
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 1999 2:59 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:54 am

codc10 wrote:
atrude777 wrote:
So...following this now...

I was originally lead to believe that for the 767-300's...

The 2 Class 763 (Pre Polaris) were NOT going to be refitted and going to be retired or something...and the 3 Class 767-300 would get Polaris..

Now...is it going to be 2 Class 763 is going to the High J, Low Density configuration which....will have Polaris or No?

I so cannot wait until we are finally consistent at United, it is so confusing when flying..which 737's have TV which do not...which 767 has Polaris..etc

Keep up the great work with these fleet updates!

Thanks,

Alex


As I understand now, the 7 1992/1993 build 2-cabin 763s will be retired eventually and are not planned for new Polaris interiors. The other 14 (1998+ deliveries) will be high-J (46J) along with the 3 ex-HA birds, for a total of 17. Ultimately there will also be 14 763 in the 30J Polaris configuration; these are former 3-cabin airplanes.

To sum 763 matters up: 14 will be Polaris, 17 will be high J (non-Polaris?) 764 will get Polaris and/or high J. None will be PE (for now anyway) Is this correct? In the near term PE is limited to 772ER (including GE224s) 773ER, 78J. ?
Not going to get into the 737 monitor matter... that sort out over time.
Working Hard, Flying Right Friendly....
 
kaitakfan
Posts: 1547
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 1999 1:04 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:45 am

calpsafltskeds wrote:
763:
N647UA test hop at HKG right now- hopefully completed soon. So far 65 days in Polaris mod, about equal to last two in mod.


Any word on the status of the hop? There is a SFO pairing for pilots built but hidden from open time that is due to dead head out to HKG tomorrow. I take it they haven’t got the go ahead to actually unfreeze the trip for us to pick up.
 
VC10er
Posts: 4273
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:29 am

United will ultimately have 2 versions of a 763: one I shall refer to as a regular layout with 30 J seats, and a second version where virtually the entire 763 will be “Low Density” and “High Premium” (46J) with PE, and lots of E+.
Why are they doing this? I would presume there are certain destinations that UA believe they can fill with more premium passengers from (E+ up to Polaris) than other destinations.
So, my first thought is: what are those destinations that the Low Density/High Premium 763 will serve?
Is this a LHR strategy or just a handful of destinations eg; Zurich?
I’m also VERY curious about the difference in revenue that the High Premium layout will deliver over the regular 763 layout. It would be SO interesting to know how much gross revenue one TATL Route could generate with the High Premium. It “could” become many passengers favorite UA aircraft!
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
codc10
Posts: 2911
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:25 pm

iahcsr wrote:
codc10 wrote:
atrude777 wrote:
So...following this now...

I was originally lead to believe that for the 767-300's...

The 2 Class 763 (Pre Polaris) were NOT going to be refitted and going to be retired or something...and the 3 Class 767-300 would get Polaris..

Now...is it going to be 2 Class 763 is going to the High J, Low Density configuration which....will have Polaris or No?

I so cannot wait until we are finally consistent at United, it is so confusing when flying..which 737's have TV which do not...which 767 has Polaris..etc

Keep up the great work with these fleet updates!

Thanks,

Alex


As I understand now, the 7 1992/1993 build 2-cabin 763s will be retired eventually and are not planned for new Polaris interiors. The other 14 (1998+ deliveries) will be high-J (46J) along with the 3 ex-HA birds, for a total of 17. Ultimately there will also be 14 763 in the 30J Polaris configuration; these are former 3-cabin airplanes.

To sum 763 matters up: 14 will be Polaris, 17 will be high J (non-Polaris?) 764 will get Polaris and/or high J. None will be PE (for now anyway) Is this correct? In the near term PE is limited to 772ER (including GE224s) 773ER, 78J. ?
Not going to get into the 737 monitor matter... that sort out over time.


This post is very confusing.

All WB except the 7 outgoing 763 and the 19 77G will eventually get Polaris hard product AND PE in various ratios.

What we know is 14 763 will get 30J Polaris and 17 763 will have 46J Polaris. All will eventually have PE.

78J comes with Polaris and PE from Boeing, as will 77W #18. 77W PE mods are underway.

All sUA 777-222ER will get Polaris/PE/3-4-3 Y. That program is underway. No more 777s will come out of XMN without PE. The 777-224ER will follow the -222ER.

788/789 Polaris/PE mods are planned to start in summer 2019. No firm timetable on 764 mods but a Polaris/PE configuration is planned.
 
User avatar
cosyr
Posts: 1483
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:23 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:57 pm

codc10 wrote:
atrude777 wrote:
So...following this now...

I was originally lead to believe that for the 767-300's...

The 2 Class 763 (Pre Polaris) were NOT going to be refitted and going to be retired or something...and the 3 Class 767-300 would get Polaris..

Now...is it going to be 2 Class 763 is going to the High J, Low Density configuration which....will have Polaris or No?

I so cannot wait until we are finally consistent at United, it is so confusing when flying..which 737's have TV which do not...which 767 has Polaris..etc

Keep up the great work with these fleet updates!

Thanks,

Alex


As I understand now, the 7 1992/1993 build 2-cabin 763s will be retired eventually and are not planned for new Polaris interiors. The other 14 (1998+ deliveries) will be high-J (46J) along with the 3 ex-HA birds, for a total of 17. Ultimately there will also be 14 763 in the 30J Polaris configuration; these are former 3-cabin airplanes.

So with UA announcing Naples and Prague, there are yet two more routes from EWR that they will be flying 763's, and these two cannot be on 752's. With the new routes started and those upgraded from 752's, I just don't see what UA will do with 17 in the high J layout. 41 752's only have 16 J seats, and many of those routes have been upgraded to 30 J seats on 763's. Even if every 763 were 30 J, that is still 35 (soon 38) vs 41 752's. Now that number will be down to 21 vs 41? It just doesn't seem like very flexible fleet management. Don't get me wrong, I want to fly on the high J...everytime, but I just feel like UA is going to regret that, and possibly blame the 763 in general for poor financial performance, rather than their choice of arrangement.
 
fun2fly
Posts: 1618
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:30 pm

cosyr wrote:


As I understand now, the 7 1992/1993 build 2-cabin 763s will be retired eventually and are not planned for new Polaris interiors. The other 14 (1998+ deliveries) will be high-J (46J) along with the 3 ex-HA birds, for a total of 17. Ultimately there will also be 14 763 in the 30J Polaris configuration; these are former 3-cabin airplanes.[/quote]
So with UA announcing Naples and Prague, there are yet two more routes from EWR that they will be flying 763's, and these two cannot be on 752's. With the new routes started and those upgraded from 752's, I just don't see what UA will do with 17 in the high J layout. 41 752's only have 16 J seats, and many of those routes have been upgraded to 30 J seats on 763's. Even if every 763 were 30 J, that is still 35 (soon 38) vs 41 752's. Now that number will be down to 21 vs 41? It just doesn't seem like very flexible fleet management. Don't get me wrong, I want to fly on the high J...everytime, but I just feel like UA is going to regret that, and possibly blame the 763 in general for poor financial performance, rather than their choice of arrangement.[/quote]

LHR = 5x EWR, 3xORD, 3xIAD speaks for 11 of 17 a/c. Add in other hubs and have an exclusive LHR experience? Or use the remaining 6 (one spare for domestic?) for ZRH/GVA/? I'm sure UA has a plan before they spent so much $$. We should know in Q1 where the initial units go. I'm hoping LHR>EWR first to differentiate vs. the competition.
 
codc10
Posts: 2911
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:10 pm

cosyr wrote:
codc10 wrote:
atrude777 wrote:
So...following this now...

I was originally lead to believe that for the 767-300's...

The 2 Class 763 (Pre Polaris) were NOT going to be refitted and going to be retired or something...and the 3 Class 767-300 would get Polaris..

Now...is it going to be 2 Class 763 is going to the High J, Low Density configuration which....will have Polaris or No?

I so cannot wait until we are finally consistent at United, it is so confusing when flying..which 737's have TV which do not...which 767 has Polaris..etc

Keep up the great work with these fleet updates!

Thanks,

Alex


As I understand now, the 7 1992/1993 build 2-cabin 763s will be retired eventually and are not planned for new Polaris interiors. The other 14 (1998+ deliveries) will be high-J (46J) along with the 3 ex-HA birds, for a total of 17. Ultimately there will also be 14 763 in the 30J Polaris configuration; these are former 3-cabin airplanes.

So with UA announcing Naples and Prague, there are yet two more routes from EWR that they will be flying 763's, and these two cannot be on 752's. With the new routes started and those upgraded from 752's, I just don't see what UA will do with 17 in the high J layout. 41 752's only have 16 J seats, and many of those routes have been upgraded to 30 J seats on 763's. Even if every 763 were 30 J, that is still 35 (soon 38) vs 41 752's. Now that number will be down to 21 vs 41? It just doesn't seem like very flexible fleet management. Don't get me wrong, I want to fly on the high J...everytime, but I just feel like UA is going to regret that, and possibly blame the 763 in general for poor financial performance, rather than their choice of arrangement.


I think it's actually more flexible. The eventual Polaris 764 will be 34J (with one seat held for pilot rest, so 33J), which is a reduction of 5 seats from the current configuration. LHR sees 4-5 764s per day now, often going out with full J cabins and empty Y seats, so the high-J 763s might logically replace the 764 in those markets, freeing them up for less-premium flights. The high-J 763s can also fly to IAH, keeping J capacity relatively consistent while reducing trip costs and Y seat counts. ZRH-EWR/ORD-IAD are also candidates for this configuration.

Similarly, the 787-10 can be used on higher-volume routes which do not have strong premium demand, such as EWR-FCO/VCE/ATH/BCN/MAD, etc.
 
User avatar
cosyr
Posts: 1483
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:23 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:24 pm

codc10 wrote:
cosyr wrote:
codc10 wrote:

As I understand now, the 7 1992/1993 build 2-cabin 763s will be retired eventually and are not planned for new Polaris interiors. The other 14 (1998+ deliveries) will be high-J (46J) along with the 3 ex-HA birds, for a total of 17. Ultimately there will also be 14 763 in the 30J Polaris configuration; these are former 3-cabin airplanes.

So with UA announcing Naples and Prague, there are yet two more routes from EWR that they will be flying 763's, and these two cannot be on 752's. With the new routes started and those upgraded from 752's, I just don't see what UA will do with 17 in the high J layout. 41 752's only have 16 J seats, and many of those routes have been upgraded to 30 J seats on 763's. Even if every 763 were 30 J, that is still 35 (soon 38) vs 41 752's. Now that number will be down to 21 vs 41? It just doesn't seem like very flexible fleet management. Don't get me wrong, I want to fly on the high J...everytime, but I just feel like UA is going to regret that, and possibly blame the 763 in general for poor financial performance, rather than their choice of arrangement.


I think it's actually more flexible. The eventual Polaris 764 will be 34J (with one seat held for pilot rest, so 33J), which is a reduction of 5 seats from the current configuration. LHR sees 4-5 764s per day now, often going out with full J cabins and empty Y seats, so the high-J 763s might logically replace the 764 in those markets, freeing them up for less-premium flights. The high-J 763s can also fly to IAH, keeping J capacity relatively consistent while reducing trip costs and Y seat counts. ZRH-EWR/ORD-IAD are also candidates for this configuration.

Similarly, the 787-10 can be used on higher-volume routes which do not have strong premium demand, such as EWR-FCO/VCE/ATH/BCN/MAD, etc.

I'm sure UA has thought this through, but I'm also curious where they're going to park all these 763's and 787-10's at EWR. I assume they are going to be doing some schedule changes to staggar departure times. I remember flying to EDI on a CO 752 and having around a dozen European flights on 752's all leaving within 30 minutes, and each one took up the same gate space as a 737.
 
codc10
Posts: 2911
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:58 pm

cosyr wrote:
I'm sure UA has thought this through, but I'm also curious where they're going to park all these 763's and 787-10's at EWR. I assume they are going to be doing some schedule changes to staggar departure times. I remember flying to EDI on a CO 752 and having around a dozen European flights on 752's all leaving within 30 minutes, and each one took up the same gate space as a 737.


With some exceptions at EWR, 767s can park at the same gates as 757s (Group IV/Code D). There are a few alleyways where adjacent gates are blocked or restricted if a WB occupies such a gate.

The 787-10s have a larger span and park at Group V/Code E gates, of which there 12 (IIRC).
 
N649DL
Posts: 1001
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:46 pm

codc10 wrote:
atrude777 wrote:
So...following this now...

I was originally lead to believe that for the 767-300's...

The 2 Class 763 (Pre Polaris) were NOT going to be refitted and going to be retired or something...and the 3 Class 767-300 would get Polaris..

Now...is it going to be 2 Class 763 is going to the High J, Low Density configuration which....will have Polaris or No?

I so cannot wait until we are finally consistent at United, it is so confusing when flying..which 737's have TV which do not...which 767 has Polaris..etc

Keep up the great work with these fleet updates!

Thanks,

Alex


As I understand now, the 7 1992/1993 build 2-cabin 763s will be retired eventually and are not planned for new Polaris interiors. The other 14 (1998+ deliveries) will be high-J (46J) along with the 3 ex-HA birds, for a total of 17. Ultimately there will also be 14 763 in the 30J Polaris configuration; these are former 3-cabin airplanes.



Still wondering about those oddball 2-class 763s that got retrofitted ahead of Polaris that are old. Why put the work in to convert only to retire? They'll probably fly them until they hit cycle limits or go domestic PS.
 
iahcsr
Posts: 4777
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 1999 2:59 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:22 pm

N649DL wrote:
codc10 wrote:
atrude777 wrote:
So...following this now...

I was originally lead to believe that for the 767-300's...

The 2 Class 763 (Pre Polaris) were NOT going to be refitted and going to be retired or something...and the 3 Class 767-300 would get Polaris..

Now...is it going to be 2 Class 763 is going to the High J, Low Density configuration which....will have Polaris or No?

I so cannot wait until we are finally consistent at United, it is so confusing when flying..which 737's have TV which do not...which 767 has Polaris..etc

Keep up the great work with these fleet updates!

Thanks,

Alex


As I understand now, the 7 1992/1993 build 2-cabin 763s will be retired eventually and are not planned for new Polaris interiors. The other 14 (1998+ deliveries) will be high-J (46J) along with the 3 ex-HA birds, for a total of 17. Ultimately there will also be 14 763 in the 30J Polaris configuration; these are former 3-cabin airplanes.



Still wondering about those oddball 2-class 763s that got retrofitted ahead of Polaris that are old. Why put the work in to convert only to retire? They'll probably fly them until they hit cycle limits or go domestic PS.

The seven ‘92-93 builds will not be Polaris-ed. The others are all ‘98-01. It’s the 14 3 class currently almost completely converted to Polaris that will be the remaining old ‘91-93.
Working Hard, Flying Right Friendly....
 
User avatar
calpsafltskeds
Posts: 3234
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:29 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:32 pm

fun2fly wrote:
cosyr wrote:


LHR = 5x EWR, 3xORD, 3xIAD speaks for 11 of 17 a/c. Add in other hubs and have an exclusive LHR experience? Or use the remaining 6 (one spare for domestic?) for ZRH/GVA/? I'm sure UA has a plan before they spent so much $$. We should know in Q1 where the initial units go. I'm hoping LHR>EWR first to differentiate vs. the competition.

If all EWR/IAD/ORD-LHR flying goes 763 high J, it will take 13 aircraft as the morning eastbounds from IAD and EWR can only do a one way. The 4 units that would do a one way trip can provide maintenance opportunites to where maybe IAH can be skipped with the high J fleet. Throw in EWR/IAD-GVA/ZHR and you have a full 17 units.
 
gsg013
Posts: 574
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:03 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:37 pm

I understand you are saying the HI-J will be a premium experience for LHR over the standard J 767-300ER but why? I understand more premium pax and less Y seats should make boarding and leaving the plane quicker, but dont really see it being that much more premium when in Polaris. Premium pax often want to be the first on the plane but when you have to board first but when you have to board with 45 other J pax it may seem less exclusive. The seats the same. In some cases I think less J is a better experience as you don't spread the service too thin in terms of flight attendants... IE DL new 777 with only 28 J suites
 
VC10er
Posts: 4273
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:07 pm

It will be very interesting if the average person (both Premium and the more cost sensitive) will notice that the High Premium 763? On board will it be a palpable difference to people- that more folks will have a better experience on a very liked aircraft.
Once upon a time I used to parter with our London office on UK clients and I was like a ping pong ball going to LHR and back. “IF” I had a Polaris 767 both ways back then, it would certainly have been better than the options I had in the late 1990’s and early 2000’s. I never loved the BA seat (although I loved the 747s) never liked the Virgin seats, and legacy UA always put me in F because I was GS. So, it was almost always UA. High or Low J - I would love Polaris on that route. Better than old J, “almost” as good as F.
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
N649DL
Posts: 1001
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:11 pm

iahcsr wrote:
N649DL wrote:
codc10 wrote:

As I understand now, the 7 1992/1993 build 2-cabin 763s will be retired eventually and are not planned for new Polaris interiors. The other 14 (1998+ deliveries) will be high-J (46J) along with the 3 ex-HA birds, for a total of 17. Ultimately there will also be 14 763 in the 30J Polaris configuration; these are former 3-cabin airplanes.



Still wondering about those oddball 2-class 763s that got retrofitted ahead of Polaris that are old. Why put the work in to convert only to retire? They'll probably fly them until they hit cycle limits or go domestic PS.

The seven ‘92-93 builds will not be Polaris-ed. The others are all ‘98-01. It’s the 14 3 class currently almost completely converted to Polaris that will be the remaining old ‘91-93.


So they'll Polaris up a 1991 763 but not a 1993 - Why would they not do this? Costs?
 
User avatar
DLHAM
Posts: 552
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:10 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:37 pm

I am pretty sure EWR/IAD-GVA and maybe ZRH will see these high J 767-300s too.
My Instagram Account: Instagram
 
iahcsr
Posts: 4777
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 1999 2:59 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:47 pm

N649DL wrote:
iahcsr wrote:
N649DL wrote:


Still wondering about those oddball 2-class 763s that got retrofitted ahead of Polaris that are old. Why put the work in to convert only to retire? They'll probably fly them until they hit cycle limits or go domestic PS.

The seven ‘92-93 builds will not be Polaris-ed. The others are all ‘98-01. It’s the 14 3 class currently almost completely converted to Polaris that will be the remaining old ‘91-93.


So they'll Polaris up a 1991 763 but not a 1993 - Why would they not do this? Costs?

The priority was to convert all remaining three class aircraft first. As luck would have it, they were all in the older group.
Working Hard, Flying Right Friendly....
 
User avatar
KVH68
Posts: 265
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2016 4:09 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:01 pm

The company is saying all 777W Premium Plus mods will be completed by April 2019
 
codc10
Posts: 2911
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Fri Aug 31, 2018 1:52 am

gsg013 wrote:
I understand you are saying the HI-J will be a premium experience for LHR over the standard J 767-300ER but why? I understand more premium pax and less Y seats should make boarding and leaving the plane quicker, but dont really see it being that much more premium when in Polaris. Premium pax often want to be the first on the plane but when you have to board first but when you have to board with 45 other J pax it may seem less exclusive. The seats the same. In some cases I think less J is a better experience as you don't spread the service too thin in terms of flight attendants... IE DL new 777 with only 28 J suites


It’s not about premium experience... it’s about SELLING more premium seats... If the demand is there.
 
User avatar
747d10
Posts: 245
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 4:02 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Fri Aug 31, 2018 9:02 am

N227UA entered XMN today. https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N227UA
Hopefully for Polaris??
E145 E190 F100 L10/15 DC8 D8S D10 M11 D91/S/5 M80 M90 717 727/S 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/42/43/44 752 762/3/4 77E/L 788 A300 310 319 320 321 333 Concorde
AA AC AF AL AQ AS BN CI CO CX DL EA FL HA HU HY KL MC MU MX NA NC NW OZ PA PI QH RC SQ TI TW UA US WA 9K
 
User avatar
cosyr
Posts: 1483
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:23 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Fri Aug 31, 2018 12:54 pm

iahcsr wrote:
N649DL wrote:
codc10 wrote:

As I understand now, the 7 1992/1993 build 2-cabin 763s will be retired eventually and are not planned for new Polaris interiors. The other 14 (1998+ deliveries) will be high-J (46J) along with the 3 ex-HA birds, for a total of 17. Ultimately there will also be 14 763 in the 30J Polaris configuration; these are former 3-cabin airplanes.



Still wondering about those oddball 2-class 763s that got retrofitted ahead of Polaris that are old. Why put the work in to convert only to retire? They'll probably fly them until they hit cycle limits or go domestic PS.

The seven ‘92-93 builds will not be Polaris-ed. The others are all ‘98-01. It’s the 14 3 class currently almost completely converted to Polaris that will be the remaining old ‘91-93.

Which were the 14 sUA domestic birds? the 92-93?, If the 91-93 were older but didn't fly domestic routes in the 90's, they should have fewer cycles on them.
 
codc10
Posts: 2911
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Fri Aug 31, 2018 1:18 pm

cosyr wrote:
Which were the 14 sUA domestic birds? the 92-93?, If the 91-93 were older but didn't fly domestic routes in the 90's, they should have fewer cycles on them.


The 98-01 deliveries were all domestic until 2012/2013. The 7 92-93 birds that got winglets, new cabins and were converted to 2-class were former 3-cabin IPTE airplanes modded in 2015/2016 and flew international service throughout. The current Polaris fleet along with the two 763s awaiting it were 1991-93 deliveries and always flew international.
 
User avatar
calpsafltskeds
Posts: 3234
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:29 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Fri Aug 31, 2018 2:03 pm

772:
N227UA did enter XMN 2744/31Aug, replaces N795UA that had maint only visit, so probably not for Polaris or there would be up to 4 mod lines at HKG.

77W:
N2333U entered SFO 59/28Aug, potential PE mod, but last into SFO N2332U didn't get PE

We're entering the Fall season this week and aircraft in mod/maint/paint could be increased fleetwide.
 
jayunited
Posts: 3027
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:56 pm

N649DL wrote:
So they'll Polaris up a 1991 763 but not a 1993 - Why would they not do this? Costs?


It all comes down to cycles, perhaps the 1993 birds have more cycles on them than the 1991 birds. You are correct cost is a major factor and if the 1991 bird has fewer cycles perhaps its worth the cost to install Polaris on this bird v.s. a 1993 bird has has higher cycles and is closer to retirement.

KVH68 wrote:
The company is saying all 777W Premium Plus mods will be completed by April 2019

Once 77W nose number 2131 has already be modified we thought 2132 was at SFO but it left SFO maintenance and reentered service without P.E.
 
User avatar
intotheair
Posts: 1899
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:49 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Fri Aug 31, 2018 6:37 pm

I'm going to post here instead of in a new thread because, well, because. Scott Kirby gave a wide ranging interview to Skift. It's worth a read. Here are some of my highlights:

https://skift.com/2018/08/27/united-air ... believers/

Skift: You have a lot of older aircraft you must replace. Some people were expecting a big order this summer, but you committed to only some regional jets and four Boeing 787s. What’s the plan?

Kirby: Broadly, we have a big order. We’ve taken a couple, but we have 161 firm deliveries of 737s coming. We’ve got a bunch of 787s coming. We continue to look at more options for both narrow and widebodies. We’re pretty active in the used aircraft market right now. We’re working on some used aircraft deals that might bring more airplanes.

In the longer term, we’ve got to decided whether we’re going to buy 100-seat airplanes or larger narrowbodies. Really depends on negotiations.

Skift: I thought you’ve argued you’d never buy 100-seaters because the economics don’t work.

Kirby: I didn’t say never. I’d say it’s probably not the best option, but it depends on the scope negotiations. Today, we could go buy 100 seaters instead of 737s and that unlocks scope for us. Probably a better answer is to buy 737s and unlock the scope, but we’re working with our pilots on that. I think, ultimately, we’ll get to the right answer. Longer term, the replacement of the 757 and 767 is on the horizon. It’s not just on the horizon, it’s in the here and now, and we really don’t have a great option for that. Longer term, by the time we get out of the middle of the next decade, we’re going to probably start replacing the 777-200s.


So sounds like Kirby's going to try to change scope so it's more about however many narrowbodies are added to mainline, not just 100 seaters. Interesting idea, and phrased that way, I can see how it might work. But I'm still a little skeptical.

Also, sounds like they're really going to start paying attention to the brand again:

Skift: And what’s your priority for next year?

Kirby: (Next year) and beyond really is going to be about changing our DNA and changing how people feel when they fly United. You know, not just the hard metrics of, “Did you get me there on time and what are the financial numbers?” But changing how people feel. The epiphany for me after Dr. Dao was [realizing] how different the world is today and how perception and opinion matter so much and how much more quickly something can go viral.
300 319 320 321 332 333 345 346 380 717 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 762 763 772 77W 788 789 CR2 CR7 CR9 CRK Q400 E175 DC10 MD82 MD90
AA AF AS AY AZ B6 BA BR DL F9 FI GA HA KF LH MI QX SK SN SQ UA US VY WN
 
1989worstyear
Posts: 887
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:53 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Fri Aug 31, 2018 7:01 pm

intotheair wrote:
I'm going to post here instead of in a new thread because, well, because. Scott Kirby gave a wide ranging interview to Skift. It's worth a read. Here are some of my highlights:

https://skift.com/2018/08/27/united-air ... believers/

Skift: You have a lot of older aircraft you must replace. Some people were expecting a big order this summer, but you committed to only some regional jets and four Boeing 787s. What’s the plan?

Kirby: Broadly, we have a big order. We’ve taken a couple, but we have 161 firm deliveries of 737s coming. We’ve got a bunch of 787s coming. We continue to look at more options for both narrow and widebodies. We’re pretty active in the used aircraft market right now. We’re working on some used aircraft deals that might bring more airplanes.

In the longer term, we’ve got to decided whether we’re going to buy 100-seat airplanes or larger narrowbodies. Really depends on negotiations.

Skift: I thought you’ve argued you’d never buy 100-seaters because the economics don’t work.

Kirby: I didn’t say never. I’d say it’s probably not the best option, but it depends on the scope negotiations. Today, we could go buy 100 seaters instead of 737s and that unlocks scope for us. Probably a better answer is to buy 737s and unlock the scope, but we’re working with our pilots on that. I think, ultimately, we’ll get to the right answer. Longer term, the replacement of the 757 and 767 is on the horizon. It’s not just on the horizon, it’s in the here and now, and we really don’t have a great option for that. Longer term, by the time we get out of the middle of the next decade, we’re going to probably start replacing the 777-200s.


So sounds like Kirby's going to try to change scope so it's more about however many narrowbodies are added to mainline, not just 100 seaters. Interesting idea, and phrased that way, I can see how it might work. But I'm still a little skeptical.

Also, sounds like they're really going to start paying attention to the brand again:

Skift: And what’s your priority for next year?

Kirby: (Next year) and beyond really is going to be about changing our DNA and changing how people feel when they fly United. You know, not just the hard metrics of, “Did you get me there on time and what are the financial numbers?” But changing how people feel. The epiphany for me after Dr. Dao was [realizing] how different the world is today and how perception and opinion matter so much and how much more quickly something can go viral.


Looks like the UA A320-232's will become the next NW DC-9's. No mention in his article about THAT aging fleet :x
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
jayunited
Posts: 3027
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Fri Aug 31, 2018 7:45 pm

1989worstyear wrote:

Looks like the UA A320-232's will become the next NW DC-9's. No mention in his article about THAT aging fleet :x


United has already invested in a life extension program for the entire Airbus fleet, this is probably why he didn't mention it when talking about fleet replacement.

Kirby's answer to the scope question is not going to happen, I don't see UA pilots giving into UA on scope. Kirby wants to buy 737s and unlock scope at the same time, instead of buying 100 seater aircraft which would automatically unlock scope.
 
User avatar
calpsafltskeds
Posts: 3234
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:29 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Fri Aug 31, 2018 8:57 pm

I just wonder how many 737s UA would have to buy so that the pilots would realize new employment and people moving up the ladder is good for everyone. Why hold UA to purchase less profitable 100 seat aircraft as the way toward expansion? The AA 40% number seems to make more sense as the airline grows, everything grows. Let's grow this airline.
 
1989worstyear
Posts: 887
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:53 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Fri Aug 31, 2018 10:20 pm

jayunited wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:

Looks like the UA A320-232's will become the next NW DC-9's. No mention in his article about THAT aging fleet :x


United has already invested in a life extension program for the entire Airbus fleet, this is probably why he didn't mention it when talking about fleet replacement.

Kirby's answer to the scope question is not going to happen, I don't see UA pilots giving into UA on scope. Kirby wants to buy 737s and unlock scope at the same time, instead of buying 100 seater aircraft which would automatically unlock scope.


That blows the "incremental improvement" myth out of the water. :fight:

1993 was a quarter century ago...
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
codc10
Posts: 2911
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Fri Aug 31, 2018 10:34 pm

calpsafltskeds wrote:
I just wonder how many 737s UA would have to buy so that the pilots would realize new employment and people moving up the ladder is good for everyone. Why hold UA to purchase less profitable 100 seat aircraft as the way toward expansion? The AA 40% number seems to make more sense as the airline grows, everything grows. Let's grow this airline.


The pilots’ point (fair, in my view) is that nothing is standing in the way of the company buying as many 737s as it thinks it can fly profitably. 737s and A32X are already mainline jobs, and don’t serve the same market segment as E-Jets and the A222. The pilots don’t need to concede on scope to enable the company to buy more 737s.

On the other hand, the 100-seat segment is a negotiated mainline category. If the pilots cave on a deal which allows more 76-seaters at the regional in exchange for 737/A320 orders, that essentially makes the 100-seater category redundant (no E-Jet/A220 order), this obviating an entire tier of would-be mainline flying and turning the deal into a net concession.

I think any deal is going to involve UAL mainline pilots either flying some number of 76-seaters or all 100-seaters, or both. It won’t be status quo (more 76-seaters in exchange for more 150+ seaters).
 
AviationAddict
Posts: 769
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:37 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Sat Sep 01, 2018 1:00 am

If the company wants to replace additional 50-seaters with 76-seaters won't they run into the scope? That's the part I don't understand. I see how the UA pilots wouldn't want mainline service downgraded to regionals, I'm with them on that point. Preventing the swapping of one regional type for another one is where I seem to miss the point.
 
tpaewr
Posts: 724
Joined: Sat May 19, 2001 9:01 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:33 am

codc10 wrote:
cosyr wrote:
Which were the 14 sUA domestic birds? the 92-93?, If the 91-93 were older but didn't fly domestic routes in the 90's, they should have fewer cycles on them.


The 98-01 deliveries were all domestic until 2012/2013. The 7 92-93 birds that got winglets, new cabins and were converted to 2-class were former 3-cabin IPTE airplanes modded in 2015/2016 and flew international service throughout. The current Polaris fleet along with the two 763s awaiting it were 1991-93 deliveries and always flew international.




I believe these are the ones that were lovingly called the “Ghetto Birds” in their previous life. They were overhauled at the dawn of the merger and while having always been at UA have a totally CO style interior even down the checkered fabric seats.

They aren’t bad plane, but I alway feel the J seats are a pinch smaller than the 777 with Diamond.
 
sdh9
Posts: 66
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:13 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:52 am

calpsafltskeds wrote:
I just wonder how many 737s UA would have to buy so that the pilots would realize new employment and people moving up the ladder is good for everyone. Why hold UA to purchase less profitable 100 seat aircraft as the way toward expansion? The AA 40% number seems to make more sense as the airline grows, everything grows. Let's grow this airline.


United has something like 56 737-9s and 100 737-10s on order. Is that growing the airline? Nobody has said. There are a lot of old 320s, 73Gs, 738s, and 752s that need to be replaced. Remember the 73G order that just disappeared? Yes I know it was changed to the MAX (and a few -800s) but that just makes my point.

What happens if ALPA allows RJ expansion for an order that never gets delivered? Or one that turns out to replace another fleet? Do the RJs get parked? I doubt it. Remember what happened the last time the pilots agreed (under duress) for scope relaxation? The pilots do; many major airline pilots lost their jobs.

If United wants to grow the airline the pilots won’t stop them. If they want more RJs they’ve known how to get them since 2012.
 
redrooster3
Posts: 382
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 2:35 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:20 am

iahcsr wrote:
codc10 wrote:
atrude777 wrote:
So...following this now...

I was originally lead to believe that for the 767-300's...

The 2 Class 763 (Pre Polaris) were NOT going to be refitted and going to be retired or something...and the 3 Class 767-300 would get Polaris..

Now...is it going to be 2 Class 763 is going to the High J, Low Density configuration which....will have Polaris or No?

I so cannot wait until we are finally consistent at United, it is so confusing when flying..which 737's have TV which do not...which 767 has Polaris..etc

Keep up the great work with these fleet updates!

Thanks,

Alex


As I understand now, the 7 1992/1993 build 2-cabin 763s will be retired eventually and are not planned for new Polaris interiors. The other 14 (1998+ deliveries) will be high-J (46J) along with the 3 ex-HA birds, for a total of 17. Ultimately there will also be 14 763 in the 30J Polaris configuration; these are former 3-cabin airplanes.

To sum 763 matters up: 14 will be Polaris, 17 will be high J (non-Polaris?) 764 will get Polaris and/or high J. None will be PE (for now anyway) Is this correct? In the near term PE is limited to 772ER (including GE224s) 773ER, 78J. ?
Not going to get into the 737 monitor matter... that sort out over time.


There will be two fleets for the 767-300ER's. And both will have Polaris configurations. 767-400ER's will go Polaris with a 34J/18W/175Y configuration. But UA has not funded, nor planned for their mod dates yet. High-J will feature PP. The ex 3-class international 767s that have already been converted over to Polaris will not receive PP.
Marry one of us, and you'll fly for free!
 
User avatar
calpsafltskeds
Posts: 3234
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:29 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:56 am

sdh9 wrote:
calpsafltskeds wrote:
What happens if ALPA allows RJ expansion for an order that never gets delivered? Or one that turns out to replace another fleet? Do the RJs get parked? I doubt it. Remember what happened the last time the pilots agreed (under duress) for scope relaxation? The pilots do; many major airline pilots lost their jobs.

That's why the AA 40% deal is equitable. If mainline is cancelled or sold, then large RJs would have to be as well. I suppose UA could fly 100 seat aircraft, but UA is not asking to operate 100 seat aircraft with Express crews. That seems fair, the only question is why growing the airline with profitable mainline aircraft penalizes the company in regards to 76 seat expansion.
I'm sure we'll see E175SC ("Scope Clause", oops, I mean "Special Configuration") at 70 vs. 76 seats. Higher ASM cost to the company and fewer seats for pass travel.
 
User avatar
intotheair
Posts: 1899
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:49 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Sat Sep 01, 2018 4:16 am

AviationAddict wrote:
If the company wants to replace additional 50-seaters with 76-seaters won't they run into the scope? That's the part I don't understand. I see how the UA pilots wouldn't want mainline service downgraded to regionals, I'm with them on that point. Preventing the swapping of one regional type for another one is where I seem to miss the point.


50 seaters don't threaten mainline jobs in the same way 76 seaters do.

50 seat RJs are complete dogs of a plane. They're small, you can't physically fit more than 50 seats on them, and they can't go very far. They're still mostly used to go from hubs to small markets. There are some exceptions (like DEN-BUR), but they're more or less being used the way they were designed.

70/76 seat RJs are different because they can and have replaced mainline service on a lot of routes that were traditionally always mainline (think DEN-DFW on UA). They have two cabins, and in the case of the E-jets, customers probably can't tell much of a comfort difference between them and a 737/A320.

PMUA pilots agreed to scope relief allowing 2-cabin CRJ-700s during bankruptcy and were told they wouldn't replace mainline. Flash forward not too much longer after that and PMUA grounded a ton and eventually all of its 737s. What planes replaced them on those routes?

I don't work in this industry, and I even objected to joining the union in my line of work, so I'm not a union guy. But I can totally see how and why the pilots want to hold their ground. They've been burned before and don't want that to happen again. The airlines are all making money and the pilot shortage is only going to get worse, so the pilots still have a ton of leverage here.

A 40% of mainline scope cap like what AA has does seem fair...but it would probably need some iron-clad language about parking RJs if the company parks mainline birds in a downturn. I can see how pilots would be worried about the company coming back and saying "we still need these smaller planes because we can't fill the big ones anymore" if/when the economy starts heading south again.
300 319 320 321 332 333 345 346 380 717 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 762 763 772 77W 788 789 CR2 CR7 CR9 CRK Q400 E175 DC10 MD82 MD90
AA AF AS AY AZ B6 BA BR DL F9 FI GA HA KF LH MI QX SK SN SQ UA US VY WN
 
VC10er
Posts: 4273
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:23 pm

I have a booking question as it pertains to the 763. I just booked a (very expensive) ticket from EWR to GVA. The seat map shows the old configuration. I looked around to find a European city operated with a 763 with a new Polaris seat map. None to be found. Are the folks at UA putting the (7?) newly refurbished 763’s on a rotating schedule, and just showing the old seat map on all flights?
If so I would presume my chances would be good to show up on September 16th and find I got the new Polaris seat.
Or are UA actually showing the new layout on some routes on certain days and I’m just not finding them?
I’m in seat 1F which I “think” is a forward facing Polaris seat, if indeed I luck out and get a true Polaris 763?
Thanks zillions for any insight! R
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
sdh9
Posts: 66
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:13 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:43 pm

AviationAddict wrote:
A 40% of mainline scope cap like what AA has does seem fair...but it would probably need some iron-clad language about parking RJs if the company parks mainline birds in a downturn. I can see how pilots would be worried about the company coming back and saying "we still need these smaller planes because we can't fill the big ones anymore" if/when the economy starts heading south again.


First of all, 40% is a ton of RJs. No thanks.

Second of all, ask any pilot who worked under a no-furlough clause that was furloughed. Contract language has a tendency to get changed in periods of downturn, either by bankruptcy or threats thereof. Once new RJs are added they're not leaving.
 
User avatar
adamblang
Posts: 1263
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 5:47 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:41 pm

VC10er wrote:
Are the folks at UA putting the (7?) newly refurbished 763’s on a rotating schedule, and just showing the old seat map on all flights?
I’m in seat 1F which I “think” is a forward facing Polaris seat, if indeed I luck out and get a true Polaris 763?

The only rear-facing business seats on 767s are on the 3-cabin 767-300ERs that still have the sUA IPTE layout. There are only 3 of those aircraft left in operation, exclusively flying ORD-LHR with the odd hop ORD-IAH. You will be in a forward-facing seat regardless of what aircraft configuration shows up.

Both the Diamond 767-300ERs ("sCO BusinessFirst" on the sUA "ghetto birds") and Optima 767-300ERs ("Polaris") are 30J/184Y so are interchangeable from a fleet flexibility and passenger accommodation standpoint. Unless something's changed that I haven't caught wind of, the Diamond seatmap is used as the default seat map for advance sales to customers. (Under promise, over deliver.) When an aircraft is assigned to your route a few days out, if that aircraft is an Optima 767-300ER, then your seat map will update to reflect the Polaris hard product.
 
N649DL
Posts: 1001
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:17 pm

cosyr wrote:
iahcsr wrote:
N649DL wrote:


Still wondering about those oddball 2-class 763s that got retrofitted ahead of Polaris that are old. Why put the work in to convert only to retire? They'll probably fly them until they hit cycle limits or go domestic PS.

The seven ‘92-93 builds will not be Polaris-ed. The others are all ‘98-01. It’s the 14 3 class currently almost completely converted to Polaris that will be the remaining old ‘91-93.

Which were the 14 sUA domestic birds? the 92-93?, If the 91-93 were older but didn't fly domestic routes in the 90's, they should have fewer cycles on them.


They were delivered in waves, it's a bit odd. The 1991-1993 76's are either 3-cabin, 2-cabin with AVOD or Polaris. The 1998-2001 builds were domestic under Legacy United and were converted to 2-class and got Winglets sometime in 2012-2013.
 
CriticalPoint
Posts: 1062
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:01 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:02 pm

[twoid][/twoid]
calpsafltskeds wrote:
I just wonder how many 737s UA would have to buy so that the pilots would realize new employment and people moving up the ladder is good for everyone. Why hold UA to purchase less profitable 100 seat aircraft as the way toward expansion? The AA 40% number seems to make more sense as the airline grows, everything grows. Let's grow this airline.


Out sourcing to the lowest bidder is not the right way to grow your airline. Kirby can buy as many 737s as he wants we are not stopping him. And we will happily fly the 100 seater into the hubs to fill them.
 
77H
Posts: 1570
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:27 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018h

Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:02 am

calpsafltskeds wrote:
sdh9 wrote:
calpsafltskeds wrote:
What happens if ALPA allows RJ expansion for an order that never gets delivered? Or one that turns out to replace another fleet? Do the RJs get parked? I doubt it. Remember what happened the last time the pilots agreed (under duress) for scope relaxation? The pilots do; many major airline pilots lost their jobs.

That's why the AA 40% deal is equitable. If mainline is cancelled or sold, then large RJs would have to be as well. I suppose UA could fly 100 seat aircraft, but UA is not asking to operate 100 seat aircraft with Express crews. That seems fair, the only question is why growing the airline with profitable mainline aircraft penalizes the company in regards to 76 seat expansion.
I'm sure we'll see E175SC ("Scope Clause", oops, I mean "Special Configuration") at 70 vs. 76 seats. Higher ASM cost to the company and fewer seats for pass travel.


Wouldn’t it make more sense to bring on more CR7s at 70 seats than fly a larger, heavier E75 at 70 seats?

77H
 
kaitakfan
Posts: 1547
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 1999 1:04 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:04 am

CriticalPoint wrote:
[twoid][/twoid]
calpsafltskeds wrote:
I just wonder how many 737s UA would have to buy so that the pilots would realize new employment and people moving up the ladder is good for everyone. Why hold UA to purchase less profitable 100 seat aircraft as the way toward expansion? The AA 40% number seems to make more sense as the airline grows, everything grows. Let's grow this airline.


Out sourcing to the lowest bidder is not the right way to grow your airline. Kirby can buy as many 737s as he wants we are not stopping him. And we will happily fly the 100 seater into the hubs to fill them.


Thank you! We don’t need to bring in cheap, unstable labor to grow this airline. We have plenty of suitable means to do so right now. So yeah, let’s grow this airline but not at the expense to our careers and future pilots to come.
 
User avatar
calpsafltskeds
Posts: 3234
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:29 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Sun Sep 02, 2018 1:56 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
[twoid][/twoid]
calpsafltskeds wrote:
I just wonder how many 737s UA would have to buy so that the pilots would realize new employment and people moving up the ladder is good for everyone. Why hold UA to purchase less profitable 100 seat aircraft as the way toward expansion? The AA 40% number seems to make more sense as the airline grows, everything grows. Let's grow this airline.


Out sourcing to the lowest bidder is not the right way to grow your airline. Kirby can buy as many 737s as he wants we are not stopping him. And we will happily fly the 100 seater into the hubs to fill them.

Sorry to say, but a JetBlue pilot presentation on the internet shows a UA E195 12 captain would earn about $160/hr vs $203/hr. for a 737. I'm not sure how old that is, but I would assume the 100 seat category would still earn less than a 319 or 737 for UA pilots.

Of course its more efficient to buy a 737 from the company view, but I just don't understand why UA pilots wouldn't rather fly a 737 at a 26% premium to the EMB195? And how many more 737s would UA buy if it opened up additional 76 seaters?

If UA bought 100 seat aircraft, just how many would UA purchase and how many better paying 737s would they not order? Remember with each 100 seater, UA gets to add roughly a 76 seater, which is close enough to the 100 seat capacity, thus UA pilots would not get a job for all the "demand" for the 100 seat aircraft as 76 seaters would do a portion of that demand.

So, who determines if a 100 seat aircraft at UA is profitable with mainline pilots (which would provide 50, 76, 100, 120, 180 seat sizes for narrobodies) vs. a gap in seat sizes between 76 and 120? That determination is not by the pilots, rather the pilots have placed management in a pocition to buy larger aircraft and they would love to see more 76 seaters to connect larger passenger counts to those larger aircraft, which pay more for UA pilots.

With a downturn of upturn, everyone would seem to be better off if the 76 seat category were ruled by an ironclad agreement based on a percentage of narrowbodies - maybe its not 40% like American, but it needs to provide some relief to grow express seat sizes as the skies and airports get more traffic and UA buys more larger narrobody aircraft (which pay UA pilots more per hour).
 
Blockplus
Posts: 105
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2016 3:55 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:25 pm

2019 book rates for e195,e190, cs100 is 213.38
737-700 is 271.64.
Crj 900 is 181.54 in my opinion the 175 would be negotiated into this category.

Yes pilots want 737s, but 737s can't fly the same mission as a smaller plane. A larger portion of 175s could be upguaged to a 100 seater profitably where a 737 cant work. So if the goal is to bring more flying in house this is the way to do it. Upguage 50s to 76 to 80 seaters, and have a 100 seat option available for filling the gap
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4338
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:30 pm

The company and pilots agreed to labor prices for the 100 seaters. The pilots shouldn’t have to give up anything. There is nothing new that needs to be agreed on. If the company wants more 76 seaters they can place an order for a 100 seat jet today without any contact with the union. And tomorrow they could place an order for more 76 seaters.

The company agreed to this and now they have decided they don’t like what they agreed to. Tough.

I bought a car I though I liked, a few months into it I’ve decided I don’t like the car. Guess who I have not called? The dealer. We agreed on it and I bought it, that’s on me!
 
VC10er
Posts: 4273
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:48 pm

adamblang wrote:
VC10er wrote:
Are the folks at UA putting the (7?) newly refurbished 763’s on a rotating schedule, and just showing the old seat map on all flights?
I’m in seat 1F which I “think” is a forward facing Polaris seat, if indeed I luck out and get a true Polaris 763?

The only rear-facing business seats on 767s are on the 3-cabin 767-300ERs that still have the sUA IPTE layout. There are only 3 of those aircraft left in operation, exclusively flying ORD-LHR with the odd hop ORD-IAH. You will be in a forward-facing seat regardless of what aircraft configuration shows up.

Both the Diamond 767-300ERs ("sCO BusinessFirst" on the sUA "ghetto birds") and Optima 767-300ERs ("Polaris") are 30J/184Y so are interchangeable from a fleet flexibility and passenger accommodation standpoint. Unless something's changed that I haven't caught wind of, the Diamond seatmap is used as the default seat map for advance sales to customers. (Under promise, over deliver.) When an aircraft is assigned to your route a few days out, if that aircraft is an Optima 767-300ER, then your seat map will update to reflect the Polaris hard product.


Thanks so much for answering me! That’s exactly what I thought, show the Diamond configuration seat map but potentially get the new Polaris seat. (As you say “under promise, over deliver”) and I am assuming that GVA might have a percentage advantage given its a premium heavy route with very good competitors to battle.
I’ve been fine with Diamond for years, so if that’s what I get I’ll be fine, I’ll even be fine in the very old backwards/forward seat because when UA first launched them as their international business seat, I loved them relative to the recliners on “almost” all other airlines at that time.

I realize that United needs to put the HD 772 to some destinations as some 772’s are off line being “Polarisized”- it’s only the fact they can cost $7,500+ one way from Madrid to EWR that bugs me. It’s really an inferior seat today for international business. But, it’s all temporary.

On a side note: Last night I met a friend of a friend who stopped by my place. The friend is European and has lived in a handful of European countries. He saw my airplane models and said he flew his favorite airline to NYC. I asked “which airline was that?” and to my utter shock he said “United. I think United is the best airline I’ve ever flown!” - interesting isn’t it? In his opinion UA customer service and seats are the best. He was shocked when I told him many Americans would not agree. Then I showed him the United Saks duvet I bought for my sofa blanket (you can buy them on United.com) They are perfect for the sofa and I love the way they tie up! He said he’s buying one immediately!

This is how changes in perception happen, one person at a time!
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
kaitakfan
Posts: 1547
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 1999 1:04 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Sun Sep 02, 2018 3:08 pm

calpsafltskeds wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
[twoid][/twoid]
calpsafltskeds wrote:
I just wonder how many 737s UA would have to buy so that the pilots would realize new employment and people moving up the ladder is good for everyone. Why hold UA to purchase less profitable 100 seat aircraft as the way toward expansion? The AA 40% number seems to make more sense as the airline grows, everything grows. Let's grow this airline.


Out sourcing to the lowest bidder is not the right way to grow your airline. Kirby can buy as many 737s as he wants we are not stopping him. And we will happily fly the 100 seater into the hubs to fill them.

Sorry to say, but a JetBlue pilot presentation on the internet shows a UA E195 12 captain would earn about $160/hr vs $203/hr. for a 737. I'm not sure how old that is, but I would assume the 100 seat category would still earn less than a 319 or 737 for UA pilots.

Of course its more efficient to buy a 737 from the company view, but I just don't understand why UA pilots wouldn't rather fly a 737 at a 26% premium to the EMB195? And how many more 737s would UA buy if it opened up additional 76 seaters?

If UA bought 100 seat aircraft, just how many would UA purchase and how many better paying 737s would they not order? Remember with each 100 seater, UA gets to add roughly a 76 seater, which is close enough to the 100 seat capacity, thus UA pilots would not get a job for all the "demand" for the 100 seat aircraft as 76 seaters would do a portion of that demand.

So, who determines if a 100 seat aircraft at UA is profitable with mainline pilots (which would provide 50, 76, 100, 120, 180 seat sizes for narrobodies) vs. a gap in seat sizes between 76 and 120? That determination is not by the pilots, rather the pilots have placed management in a pocition to buy larger aircraft and they would love to see more 76 seaters to connect larger passenger counts to those larger aircraft, which pay more for UA pilots.

With a downturn of upturn, everyone would seem to be better off if the 76 seat category were ruled by an ironclad agreement based on a percentage of narrowbodies - maybe its not 40% like American, but it needs to provide some relief to grow express seat sizes as the skies and airports get more traffic and UA buys more larger narrobody aircraft (which pay UA pilots more per hour).


Did we not have an order of 60 something 737-700’s get axes due to the company stating they were not efficient? The 737 can’t fill the need for a 100 seat market and the company knows that. Many United pilots that understand the hazards of giving on scope would rather get the 100 seaters on property and then work on the pay rates vs giving up scope.

And finally this iron clad term you throw around means NOTHING in bankruptcy courts. History repeats its self like none other in this industry. If you haven’t seen your career completely burned to the ground from bankruptcy, please give a little bit of respect to those that have and are standing their ground to make sure they do whatever they can to prevent history from repeating.
 
FlyHossD
Posts: 2101
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:45 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018h

Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:30 pm

77H wrote:

Wouldn’t it make more sense to bring on more CR7s at 70 seats than fly a larger, heavier E75 at 70 seats?

77H


My guess is that the recent 70 seat E-175 order is case of "betting on the come" by Kirby.

His recent remarks have made me wonder if he regrets cancelling the 65 additional 737-700s.

https://skift.com/2018/08/27/united-air ... believers/
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
77H
Posts: 1570
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:27 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018h

Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:39 pm

FlyHossD wrote:
77H wrote:

Wouldn’t it make more sense to bring on more CR7s at 70 seats than fly a larger, heavier E75 at 70 seats?

77H


My guess is that the recent 70 seat E-175 order is case of "betting on the come" by Kirby.

His recent remarks have made me wonder if he regrets cancelling the 65 additional 737-700s.

https://skift.com/2018/08/27/united-air ... believers/


That makes sense.

My understanding is that the 73G order wasn’t canceled but rather converted into the current 7M9/7MX
expansion order. But I get your point.

77H

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos