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VC10er
Posts: 4273
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Sun Sep 02, 2018 5:23 pm

kaitakfan wrote:
calpsafltskeds wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
[twoid][/twoid]

Out sourcing to the lowest bidder is not the right way to grow your airline. Kirby can buy as many 737s as he wants we are not stopping him. And we will happily fly the 100 seater into the hubs to fill them.

Sorry to say, but a JetBlue pilot presentation on the internet shows a UA E195 12 captain would earn about $160/hr vs $203/hr. for a 737. I'm not sure how old that is, but I would assume the 100 seat category would still earn less than a 319 or 737 for UA pilots.

Of course its more efficient to buy a 737 from the company view, but I just don't understand why UA pilots wouldn't rather fly a 737 at a 26% premium to the EMB195? And how many more 737s would UA buy if it opened up additional 76 seaters?

If UA bought 100 seat aircraft, just how many would UA purchase and how many better paying 737s would they not order? Remember with each 100 seater, UA gets to add roughly a 76 seater, which is close enough to the 100 seat capacity, thus UA pilots would not get a job for all the "demand" for the 100 seat aircraft as 76 seaters would do a portion of that demand.

So, who determines if a 100 seat aircraft at UA is profitable with mainline pilots (which would provide 50, 76, 100, 120, 180 seat sizes for narrobodies) vs. a gap in seat sizes between 76 and 120? That determination is not by the pilots, rather the pilots have placed management in a pocition to buy larger aircraft and they would love to see more 76 seaters to connect larger passenger counts to those larger aircraft, which pay more for UA pilots.

With a downturn of upturn, everyone would seem to be better off if the 76 seat category were ruled by an ironclad agreement based on a percentage of narrowbodies - maybe its not 40% like American, but it needs to provide some relief to grow express seat sizes as the skies and airports get more traffic and UA buys more larger narrobody aircraft (which pay UA pilots more per hour).


Did we not have an order of 60 something 737-700’s get axes due to the company stating they were not efficient? The 737 can’t fill the need for a 100 seat market and the company knows that. Many United pilots that understand the hazards of giving on scope would rather get the 100 seaters on property and then work on the pay rates vs giving up scope.

And finally this iron clad term you throw around means NOTHING in bankruptcy courts. History repeats its self like none other in this industry. If you haven’t seen your career completely burned to the ground from bankruptcy, please give a little bit of respect to those that have and are standing their ground to make sure they do whatever they can to prevent history from repeating.


Of everything I’ve ever read before, your last passage about what happened to people historically during bankruptcy really got me. I feel tremendous empathy. Given that UA seems to be on an upswing in many ways today, I hope it ultimately makes way for brighter and more prosperous futures for everyone.

There is zero doubt that a satisfied and happy United team of employees make flying United better for customers.
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
FlyHossD
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Sun Sep 02, 2018 5:25 pm

Blockplus wrote:
A larger portion of 175s could be upguaged to a 100 seater profitably...


We've seen the recent order of E175s that will be operated with 70 seats to stay within the current Scope clause. Without a 70 or 76 seat limit, I believe those aircraft would normally or more naturally be equipped with 80 seats. What is the cost of that shortfall?

DL made a smart move and picked up the 717s from AirTran/Southwest and will soon start replacing those with A220s. How is it that DL's ability to operate 100 seat category aircraft is better than's UAL's? Is DL's management better than UA's?
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
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adamblang
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Sun Sep 02, 2018 5:29 pm

VC10er wrote:
I realize that United needs to put the HD 772 to some destinations as some 772’s are off line being “Polarisized”- it’s only the fact they can cost $7,500+ one way from Madrid to EWR that bugs me. It’s really an inferior seat today for international business. But, it’s all temporary.

The dense IPTE forward/rear business seats on the HD 772s are the same dense IPTE forward/rear business seats on the 21 unconverted 3-cabin sUA 772s still doing routes like ORD-HKG, EWR-GRU, and IAD-FRA every day. Same seat, density, and experience in $8,966 business on an IPTE 772 doing ORD-HKG as in $5,819 business on an HD 772 doing ERW-MAD. I'll agree they're not super competitive with other carries in the market now – as would, apparently, the decision makes who green-lit updating the ERs with new cabins – but the business experience on those domestic frames doing TATL ops isn't any worse than what's on offer on ULH routes. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
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adamblang
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Sun Sep 02, 2018 6:26 pm

FlyHossD wrote:
How is it that DL's ability to operate 100 seat category aircraft is better than's UAL's? Is DL's management better than UA's?

I'll preface this with (a) I don't have skin in this game so my commentary means diddly and (b) I don't have all the information – my intent here is only to add bits of information to the conversation so maybe there's a better standing on why small mainline might or might not work.

Looking at United 2017 pay scales on page 31 and Delta 2015 pay scales on page 3-9 (are these even current pay scales? I don't know)
  • a junior Delta 717 captain makes $179.21 per block hour ($1.63 per passenger per block hour),
  • a junior United A220-300 captain would make $197.01 per block hour ($1.66 per passenger per block hour assuming 119 seats on a United A220-300), and
  • a junior United E195 captain would make $154.95 per block hour ($1.55 per passenger per block hour assuming 100 seats on a United E195).
So that's not hugely different. Crew costs don't look to me to be the issue.

Everything I've read about Delta's 717 acquisition suggests they got a screaming deal on them – both Southwest and Boeing desperately wanted to place them somewhere else. The 717 deal can't happen again – nobody's trying to pay another carrier to take a fleet of 88 100-seat aircraft. And Delta's price on CSeries – allegedly 75% off list, half the cost to actually manufacture the thing – sparked an international trade dispute and the eventual sale of the program to to Airbus. That suggests Delta's price for the CSeries was a one-time thing not available to United. The conditions for that desperate deal don't exist anymore. Maybe the issue is the cost to acquire the 100-seat aircraft? If United's cost to acquire a fleet of 100-seat aircraft is $3ish billion and Delta's is $1.5ish billion, that's a huge factor in "Delta can fly it profitably while United can't."

Even wilder speculation on my part: Delta's got ATL, DTW, MSP, and SLC to themselves and is doing a rather different thing than Alaska at SEA so has the network carrier niche to themselves there. (With LAX and NYC being competitive for Delta.) United's got DEN and SFO to themselves with every other United hub market being shared with another network carrier. Delta has a lot less competitive pressure on its pricing than United throughout their respective networks.

If Delta got a much better capital expenditure situation because of its two once-in-a-lifetime 100-seater deals and Delta's got much more control over fares it asks when selling seats on those aircraft, maybe that's where the claims about difficult economics for United are coming from.
 
iahcsr
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Joined: Fri Jun 04, 1999 2:59 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018h

Sun Sep 02, 2018 7:11 pm

77H wrote:
FlyHossD wrote:
77H wrote:

Wouldn’t it make more sense to bring on more CR7s at 70 seats than fly a larger, heavier E75 at 70 seats?

77H


My guess is that the recent 70 seat E-175 order is case of "betting on the come" by Kirby.

His recent remarks have made me wonder if he regrets cancelling the 65 additional 737-700s.

https://skift.com/2018/08/27/united-air ... believers/


That makes sense.

My understanding is that the 73G order wasn’t canceled but rather converted into the current 7M9/7MX
expansion order. But I get your point.

77H

Perhaps an order of 7M7s ?
Working Hard, Flying Right Friendly....
 
FlyHossD
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:44 pm

adamblang wrote:
FlyHossD wrote:
How is it that DL's ability to operate 100 seat category aircraft is better than's UAL's? Is DL's management better than UA's?

I'll preface this with (a) I don't have skin in this game so my commentary means diddly and (b) I don't have all the information – my intent here is only to add bits of information to the conversation so maybe there's a better standing on why small mainline might or might not work.

Looking at United 2017 pay scales on page 31 and Delta 2015 pay scales on page 3-9 (are these even current pay scales? I don't know)
  • a junior Delta 717 captain makes $179.21 per block hour ($1.63 per passenger per block hour),
  • a junior United A220-300 captain would make $197.01 per block hour ($1.66 per passenger per block hour assuming 119 seats on a United A220-300), and
  • a junior United E195 captain would make $154.95 per block hour ($1.55 per passenger per block hour assuming 100 seats on a United E195).
So that's not hugely different. Crew costs don't look to me to be the issue.

Everything I've read about Delta's 717 acquisition suggests they got a screaming deal on them – both Southwest and Boeing desperately wanted to place them somewhere else. The 717 deal can't happen again – nobody's trying to pay another carrier to take a fleet of 88 100-seat aircraft. And Delta's price on CSeries – allegedly 75% off list, half the cost to actually manufacture the thing – sparked an international trade dispute and the eventual sale of the program to to Airbus. That suggests Delta's price for the CSeries was a one-time thing not available to United. The conditions for that desperate deal don't exist anymore. Maybe the issue is the cost to acquire the 100-seat aircraft? If United's cost to acquire a fleet of 100-seat aircraft is $3ish billion and Delta's is $1.5ish billion, that's a huge factor in "Delta can fly it profitably while United can't."...


That's a nice reply - thank you - and I'm aware of all of that. Yet UA didn't pull the trigger on an earlier (before DL's) order of CS100s and instead Boeing offered 737-700s for a price too good to pass up. And then UA cancelled that order - or more accurately, converted it to other - larger - 737s. DL jumped on the smoking-good-deal CS100/A220s.

IIRC, Embraer hasn't had much success selling the E195-E2, so UA seems positioned to go in that direction, which would unlock the Scope clause, I believe. UA's current relationship with Boeing seems to be good and with Boeing and Embraer tightening their relationship, it would appear to me (just my opinion) that UA's asleep at the wheel here. Why not make that order, especially when you're in need of more domestic lift and you're being left behind by DL? UA also has plenty of experience with the E170/175s (even owns some), so the 100 seat gap would be filled by the E195s without too much pain.

Yet, UA snoozes. Why? Kirby seems to be thinking that he'll get a Scope concession, but my read of the UA pilots is that they know they've been lied to too often already. For example, they haven't forgotten the loss of their pension.

Meanwhile, UA makes no moves.

At times, I wonder if I made the right decision retiring early. Then there are times like this where I'm glad that I don't have a stake in the game any longer.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
VC10er
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Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:17 pm

adamblang wrote:
VC10er wrote:
I realize that United needs to put the HD 772 to some destinations as some 772’s are off line being “Polarisized”- it’s only the fact they can cost $7,500+ one way from Madrid to EWR that bugs me. It’s really an inferior seat today for international business. But, it’s all temporary.

The dense IPTE forward/rear business seats on the HD 772s are the same dense IPTE forward/rear business seats on the 21 unconverted 3-cabin sUA 772s still doing routes like ORD-HKG, EWR-GRU, and IAD-FRA every day. Same seat, density, and experience in $8,966 business on an IPTE 772 doing ORD-HKG as in $5,819 business on an HD 772 doing ERW-MAD. I'll agree they're not super competitive with other carries in the market now – as would, apparently, the decision makes who green-lit updating the ERs with new cabins – but the business experience on those domestic frames doing TATL ops isn't any worse than what's on offer on ULH routes. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Thanks adamblang, gosh, I did not realize there were 21 of the 3 Class 772’s! I’ve flown the EWR-GRU many times and always got myself into old Global F one way or another, miles or certificate. The last time was about 6 weeks ago, and before that it was about 10 weeks or so, ea time I leave I think “well, goodbye, that’s the last time in that F seat” (which I love) and again I find myself back in it!
I really don’t hate those seats as much as others do, in fact so long as I get a window, I sleep like the dead in them. I find them extremely comfortable beds even if narrow. I always bring a drawstring bag since there’s virtually no storage. A bit like the UA recliner that preceded it (a recliner I also liked)
Are those 21 772’s in the front of the line to be refurbished? IMHO, it really is being in the true middle of that seat when the ticket price feels very high vs Cathay etc, etc (although I’ve never checked out the price differences)
Last: I need to figure out how to make the shrugging person on my iPhone, here goes: -\_(”)_/- (How do you make the smile?)
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
iahcsr
Posts: 4777
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 1999 2:59 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:43 pm

FlyHossD wrote:
adamblang wrote:
FlyHossD wrote:
How is it that DL's ability to operate 100 seat category aircraft is better than's UAL's? Is DL's management better than UA's?

I'll preface this with (a) I don't have skin in this game so my commentary means diddly and (b) I don't have all the information – my intent here is only to add bits of information to the conversation so maybe there's a better standing on why small mainline might or might not work.

Looking at United 2017 pay scales on page 31 and Delta 2015 pay scales on page 3-9 (are these even current pay scales? I don't know)
  • a junior Delta 717 captain makes $179.21 per block hour ($1.63 per passenger per block hour),
  • a junior United A220-300 captain would make $197.01 per block hour ($1.66 per passenger per block hour assuming 119 seats on a United A220-300), and
  • a junior United E195 captain would make $154.95 per block hour ($1.55 per passenger per block hour assuming 100 seats on a United E195).
So that's not hugely different. Crew costs don't look to me to be the issue.

Everything I've read about Delta's 717 acquisition suggests they got a screaming deal on them – both Southwest and Boeing desperately wanted to place them somewhere else. The 717 deal can't happen again – nobody's trying to pay another carrier to take a fleet of 88 100-seat aircraft. And Delta's price on CSeries – allegedly 75% off list, half the cost to actually manufacture the thing – sparked an international trade dispute and the eventual sale of the program to to Airbus. That suggests Delta's price for the CSeries was a one-time thing not available to United. The conditions for that desperate deal don't exist anymore. Maybe the issue is the cost to acquire the 100-seat aircraft? If United's cost to acquire a fleet of 100-seat aircraft is $3ish billion and Delta's is $1.5ish billion, that's a huge factor in "Delta can fly it profitably while United can't."...


That's a nice reply - thank you - and I'm aware of all of that. Yet UA didn't pull the trigger on an earlier (before DL's) order of CS100s and instead Boeing offered 737-700s for a price too good to pass up. And then UA cancelled that order - or more accurately, converted it to other - larger - 737s. DL jumped on the smoking-good-deal CS100/A220s.

IIRC, Embraer hasn't had much success selling the E195-E2, so UA seems positioned to go in that direction, which would unlock the Scope clause, I believe. UA's current relationship with Boeing seems to be good and with Boeing and Embraer tightening their relationship, it would appear to me (just my opinion) that UA's asleep at the wheel here. Why not make that order, especially when you're in need of more domestic lift and you're being left behind by DL? UA also has plenty of experience with the E170/175s (even owns some), so the 100 seat gap would be filled by the E195s without too much pain.

Yet, UA snoozes. Why? Kirby seems to be thinking that he'll get a Scope concession, but my read of the UA pilots is that they know they've been lied to too often already. For example, they haven't forgotten the loss of their pension.

Meanwhile, UA makes no moves.

At times, I wonder if I made the right decision retiring early. Then there are times like this where I'm glad that I don't have a stake in the game any longer.

What makes you think there are no moves being made behind the scene? E195s may not be Kirby’s first choice, but having a plan B planned out is never bad.
Working Hard, Flying Right Friendly....
 
tpaewr
Posts: 724
Joined: Sat May 19, 2001 9:01 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:01 am

VC10er wrote:
adamblang wrote:
VC10er wrote:
I realize that United needs to put the HD 772 to some destinations as some 772’s are off line being “Polarisized”- it’s only the fact they can cost $7,500+ one way from Madrid to EWR that bugs me. It’s really an inferior seat today for international business. But, it’s all temporary.

The dense IPTE forward/rear business seats on the HD 772s are the same dense IPTE forward/rear business seats on the 21 unconverted 3-cabin sUA 772s still doing routes like ORD-HKG, EWR-GRU, and IAD-FRA every day. Same seat, density, and experience in $8,966 business on an IPTE 772 doing ORD-HKG as in $5,819 business on an HD 772 doing ERW-MAD. I'll agree they're not super competitive with other carries in the market now – as would, apparently, the decision makes who green-lit updating the ERs with new cabins – but the business experience on those domestic frames doing TATL ops isn't any worse than what's on offer on ULH routes. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Thanks adamblang, gosh, I did not realize there were 21 of the 3 Class 772’s! I’ve flown the EWR-GRU many times and always got myself into old Global F one way or another, miles or certificate. The last time was about 6 weeks ago, and before that it was about 10 weeks or so, ea time I leave I think “well, goodbye, that’s the last time in that F seat” (which I love) and again I find myself back in it!
I really don’t hate those seats as much as others do, in fact so long as I get a window, I sleep like the dead in them. I find them extremely comfortable beds even if narrow. I always bring a drawstring bag since there’s virtually no storage. A bit like the UA recliner that preceded it (a recliner I also liked)
Are those 21 772’s in the front of the line to be refurbished? IMHO, it really is being in the true middle of that seat when the ticket price feels very high vs Cathay etc, etc (although I’ve never checked out the price differences)
Last: I need to figure out how to make the shrugging person on my iPhone, here goes: -\_(”)_/- (How do you make the smile?)



I think ones feelings about the old IPTE J seat is gonna hinge on size. A smaller framed female friend of mine thinks it is fine. At 6’1 and 200lb I dislike like it. It is difficult to sleep in without touching the person next to you. If the person happens to be another larger guy you’re basically cuddling with this dude all the way to HKG. My brother is 6’4 and 280lb.....he looks hilarious in that seat! Like a grown man in a child sized airplane!

I used to book away from it in the past unless a was confident I would escape J to F, especially if their were no aisles left. But now that F is no longer sold as Polaris rolls out I always book 3 cabin even if it is a little out the way, since you are all but guaranteed F the day of travel. But this will of course not last long, but I am enjoying it while it does.
 
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cosyr
Posts: 1483
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:17 am

iahcsr wrote:
FlyHossD wrote:
adamblang wrote:
I'll preface this with (a) I don't have skin in this game so my commentary means diddly and (b) I don't have all the information – my intent here is only to add bits of information to the conversation so maybe there's a better standing on why small mainline might or might not work.

Looking at United 2017 pay scales on page 31 and Delta 2015 pay scales on page 3-9 (are these even current pay scales? I don't know)
  • a junior Delta 717 captain makes $179.21 per block hour ($1.63 per passenger per block hour),
  • a junior United A220-300 captain would make $197.01 per block hour ($1.66 per passenger per block hour assuming 119 seats on a United A220-300), and
  • a junior United E195 captain would make $154.95 per block hour ($1.55 per passenger per block hour assuming 100 seats on a United E195).
So that's not hugely different. Crew costs don't look to me to be the issue.

Everything I've read about Delta's 717 acquisition suggests they got a screaming deal on them – both Southwest and Boeing desperately wanted to place them somewhere else. The 717 deal can't happen again – nobody's trying to pay another carrier to take a fleet of 88 100-seat aircraft. And Delta's price on CSeries – allegedly 75% off list, half the cost to actually manufacture the thing – sparked an international trade dispute and the eventual sale of the program to to Airbus. That suggests Delta's price for the CSeries was a one-time thing not available to United. The conditions for that desperate deal don't exist anymore. Maybe the issue is the cost to acquire the 100-seat aircraft? If United's cost to acquire a fleet of 100-seat aircraft is $3ish billion and Delta's is $1.5ish billion, that's a huge factor in "Delta can fly it profitably while United can't."...


That's a nice reply - thank you - and I'm aware of all of that. Yet UA didn't pull the trigger on an earlier (before DL's) order of CS100s and instead Boeing offered 737-700s for a price too good to pass up. And then UA cancelled that order - or more accurately, converted it to other - larger - 737s. DL jumped on the smoking-good-deal CS100/A220s.

IIRC, Embraer hasn't had much success selling the E195-E2, so UA seems positioned to go in that direction, which would unlock the Scope clause, I believe. UA's current relationship with Boeing seems to be good and with Boeing and Embraer tightening their relationship, it would appear to me (just my opinion) that UA's asleep at the wheel here. Why not make that order, especially when you're in need of more domestic lift and you're being left behind by DL? UA also has plenty of experience with the E170/175s (even owns some), so the 100 seat gap would be filled by the E195s without too much pain.

Yet, UA snoozes. Why? Kirby seems to be thinking that he'll get a Scope concession, but my read of the UA pilots is that they know they've been lied to too often already. For example, they haven't forgotten the loss of their pension.

Meanwhile, UA makes no moves.

At times, I wonder if I made the right decision retiring early. Then there are times like this where I'm glad that I don't have a stake in the game any longer.

What makes you think there are no moves being made behind the scene? E195s may not be Kirby’s first choice, but having a plan B planned out is never bad.

Could you imagine a sweetheart deal on the E195-E2, combined with a launch customer deal on the MoM, now that Boeing and Embraer are tied up, UA could get the good kind of deals that DL got on the 717 and A220. I will be thrilled with the E2, though I think UA would probably be happier with the A220. However, since only the 100 counts toward increasing scope, I think that is the biggest hangup for UA. They would end up wanting the 300, and for the moment, since they can't get anymore 76'ers for the 300, they're just finding second hand 319's a better bargain. Obviously those 319's aren't going to be with UA for 20 years like I hope the A220 would be.
 
FlyHossD
Posts: 2101
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:45 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:18 am

iahcsr wrote:
What makes you think there are no moves being made behind the scene? E195s may not be Kirby’s first choice, but having a plan B planned out is never bad.


Because there have been no orders for 100 seaters or a change in the Scope clause. Crickets. In the meantime, DL is preparing for the A220s to arrive while already flying the B717s.

Think about it this way - if UA ordered a few dozen E195s tomorrow - how long would it take to actually enter service? The answer isn't measured in months and meanwhile, DL pulls further ahead.

Bye the way, I'd love to be proven wrong for the sake of my friends still at UA.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
VC10er
Posts: 4273
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:40 am

tpaewr wrote:
VC10er wrote:
adamblang wrote:
The dense IPTE forward/rear business seats on the HD 772s are the same dense IPTE forward/rear business seats on the 21 unconverted 3-cabin sUA 772s still doing routes like ORD-HKG, EWR-GRU, and IAD-FRA every day. Same seat, density, and experience in $8,966 business on an IPTE 772 doing ORD-HKG as in $5,819 business on an HD 772 doing ERW-MAD. I'll agree they're not super competitive with other carries in the market now – as would, apparently, the decision makes who green-lit updating the ERs with new cabins – but the business experience on those domestic frames doing TATL ops isn't any worse than what's on offer on ULH routes. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Thanks adamblang, gosh, I did not realize there were 21 of the 3 Class 772’s! I’ve flown the EWR-GRU many times and always got myself into old Global F one way or another, miles or certificate. The last time was about 6 weeks ago, and before that it was about 10 weeks or so, ea time I leave I think “well, goodbye, that’s the last time in that F seat” (which I love) and again I find myself back in it!
I really don’t hate those seats as much as others do, in fact so long as I get a window, I sleep like the dead in them. I find them extremely comfortable beds even if narrow. I always bring a drawstring bag since there’s virtually no storage. A bit like the UA recliner that preceded it (a recliner I also liked)
Are those 21 772’s in the front of the line to be refurbished? IMHO, it really is being in the true middle of that seat when the ticket price feels very high vs Cathay etc, etc (although I’ve never checked out the price differences)
Last: I need to figure out how to make the shrugging person on my iPhone, here goes: -\_(”)_/- (How do you make the smile?)



I think ones feelings about the old IPTE J seat is gonna hinge on size. A smaller framed female friend of mine thinks it is fine. At 6’1 and 200lb I dislike like it. It is difficult to sleep in without touching the person next to you. If the person happens to be another larger guy you’re basically cuddling with this dude all the way to HKG. My brother is 6’4 and 280lb.....he looks hilarious in that seat! Like a grown man in a child sized airplane!

I used to book away from it in the past unless a was confident I would escape J to F, especially if their were no aisles left. But now that F is no longer sold as Polaris rolls out I always book 3 cabin even if it is a little out the way, since you are all but guaranteed F the day of travel. But this will of course not last long, but I am enjoying it while it does.


I’m 6ft and almost 200lbs. I agree it’s a tight squeeze but they are long. The seat mate thing is an issue as they are truly inches away! I could not imagine a trip to Asia.

But I still have the same question: are these 21 3 Class 772’s first on the list to be refurbished? Same for remaining 763’s?
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
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adamblang
Posts: 1263
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon Sep 03, 2018 3:36 am

VC10er wrote:
But I still have the same question: are these 21 3 Class 772’s first on the list to be refurbished? Same for remaining 763’s?

There're only 3 remaining 3-class 763s. You'll be able to knock me over with a feather if that's still the case come 2019. (Having an itty-bitty subfleet sounds like an operational nightmare.)

Elsewhere in this thread others have indicated all the 3-cabin 772s get new cabins before any of the 2-cabin 772s get started.
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 3698
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:48 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:51 am

FlyHossD wrote:
DL made a smart move and picked up the 717s from AirTran/Southwest and will soon start replacing those with A220s. How is it that DL's ability to operate 100 seat category aircraft is better than's UAL's? Is DL's management better than UA's?


Was it really a smart move to pick up relatively inefficient airplanes that will be replaced sooner than expected?

See, this is an overly simplistic argument that starts with a premise that may not be true. It assumes that the 717s were a smart move, that DL couldn't have made MORE money with a different strategy, and that somehow DL can operate aircraft better than another airline. I'm sorry, but that's crazy. An airplane is an airplane. The difference isn't how they operate it. The difference is the decision making. DL decided to grow with used, relatively inefficient airplanes. The end result of that strategy is still years away as DL is forced to buy more and more new airplanes to replace their aging fleet. Maybe DL could have made more money by buying new aircraft instead of used 717s. We can't say for sure. What we can say though is that it's much easier to "hide" a poor fleet decision when you have hundreds of airplanes and have the most market power in the industry to bring you high revenues that will offset high costs.

I'm of the opinion that the 100-130 seat category is simply not an efficient size at mainline pay rates. The per seat costs are higher than larger aircraft. The capital costs per capacity is also much higher, since it simply takes more frames to move the same amount of seats as larger aircraft. UA clearly doesn't see the current agreement of 100-seaters unlocking more large RJs as an optimal solution. And it's due to how the economics of small narrowbodies simply aren't as good.
 
fun2fly
Posts: 1618
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:21 pm

N642UA 763 to Polaris refit test hop completed. Could have two come out of HKG this week leaving only one IPTE left after the swap.
 
User avatar
cosyr
Posts: 1483
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:23 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:43 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
FlyHossD wrote:
DL made a smart move and picked up the 717s from AirTran/Southwest and will soon start replacing those with A220s. How is it that DL's ability to operate 100 seat category aircraft is better than's UAL's? Is DL's management better than UA's?


Was it really a smart move to pick up relatively inefficient airplanes that will be replaced sooner than expected?

See, this is an overly simplistic argument that starts with a premise that may not be true. It assumes that the 717s were a smart move, that DL couldn't have made MORE money with a different strategy, and that somehow DL can operate aircraft better than another airline. I'm sorry, but that's crazy. An airplane is an airplane. The difference isn't how they operate it. The difference is the decision making. DL decided to grow with used, relatively inefficient airplanes. The end result of that strategy is still years away as DL is forced to buy more and more new airplanes to replace their aging fleet. Maybe DL could have made more money by buying new aircraft instead of used 717s. We can't say for sure. What we can say though is that it's much easier to "hide" a poor fleet decision when you have hundreds of airplanes and have the most market power in the industry to bring you high revenues that will offset high costs.

I'm of the opinion that the 100-130 seat category is simply not an efficient size at mainline pay rates. The per seat costs are higher than larger aircraft. The capital costs per capacity is also much higher, since it simply takes more frames to move the same amount of seats as larger aircraft. UA clearly doesn't see the current agreement of 100-seaters unlocking more large RJs as an optimal solution. And it's due to how the economics of small narrowbodies simply aren't as good.

There are way too many ifs to ever truly know the answers to these questions, even for DL management to answer. But the best way to gauge the success of something is their following decisions, in this case, buying more 100 seat planes to replace the 717's. Could the 717's be more efficient? Sure, otherwise we wouldn't compare operating costs between the 717 and the A220. But DL seems to think there is still money to be made with these planes. As for UA, they're obviously not sure. They may have different pay scales, they may have a different target ROI compared with DL, they may just be more cautious and/or less focused with their long term strategy.

By comparison, I once talked to a marketing manager at CO about Premium Economy back in early 2010, and I mentioned to him the success of Economy Plus that UA had been flying for almost 10 years at the time. He argued that just because UA had been flying it for 10 years, without giving up, was not proof that it made money for UA. Technically, that is true, as many companies keep money losers around for years, but later that month UA and CO announced their merger, UA expanded Y+ to CO planes and then DL and AA finally introduced it after all those years. Now, not only do all 3 airlines have Y+, but they all are introducing Premium Economy as well.
 
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FlightLevel360
Posts: 406
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:23 pm

Isn't the ERJ-195 E2 more of a regional jet compared to the CS100, even though they are technically capable of a similar seat count? I've always been educated by the fact that 4-abreast is a regional jet, while 5-abreast is mainline...
To me, it will always be:
- Bombardier CSeries
- Airbus A321neoLR and A321neoXLR
- EMBRACER ERJ-170, ERJ-175, ERJ-190, and ERJ-195
- MITSUBUSHI MRJ

Anti narrowbody-long range-twinjet gang. Long live the A380 and 747!
 
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cosyr
Posts: 1483
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:23 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:07 pm

FlightLevel360 wrote:
Isn't the ERJ-195 E2 more of a regional jet compared to the CS100, even though they are technically capable of a similar seat count? I've always been educated by the fact that 4-abreast is a regional jet, while 5-abreast is mainline...

I think a lot of people think that, but I ask you then, what was the BAe-146? That one could be 6 abreast, but almost all airlines have treated it like Express/Regional Jet, including UA. Embraer have dispelled a lot of the notions of what a Regional Jet is, chiefly among them, overhead bin space. That being said, pax will see what they want to see. I remember waiting for a flight at DEN once, and listening to someone complain that they were on one of those annoying tiny jets...it was a 737. I looked out the window, and being at one of the international gates made the plane look tiny, given how far the jetway was from the window.
 
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adamblang
Posts: 1263
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:14 pm

FlightLevel360 wrote:
Isn't the ERJ-195 E2 more of a regional jet compared to the CS100, even though they are technically capable of a similar seat count? I've always been educated by the fact that 4-abreast is a regional jet, while 5-abreast is mainline...

There is no universally accepted definition of regional jet or mainline but in the United ALPA contract the 195 is defined not a regional jet but as mainline. For United's purposes, it's mainline.
Last edited by adamblang on Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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calpsafltskeds
Posts: 3234
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:14 pm

I thought I saw recently that UA was growing while DL and AA have recently shrunk.

One of the largest differences between UA and DL is stage length and larger is better for pilots. According to planestats.com, 2Q2017 DL had a total avg stage of 1147miles (not sure if SM or NM) while UA's was 1602, or 40% longer than DL. Small Narrowbodies were DL 675 vs. UA 1118, UA 65% longer, and large narrowbodies DL 1306 vs. UA 1449, 11% higher.
So, UA would be more desirable to pilots as hours rack up quicker and there are fewer cycles to obtain hours. Could this be because DL has more small narrowbodies? They operate MD80s at stages of 529, 7217 at 544 and surprisingl 321s at 667 (fleet of 20 in 2Q17 has grown, so probably different now).
Another thread on ANet shows that DL is derating their 220s to operate under an average of 1000 and a mmax range of under 2000 miles.
 
FlyHossD
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:46 pm

MSPNWA wrote:

Was it really a smart move to pick up relatively inefficient airplanes that will be replaced sooner than expected?

See, this is an overly simplistic argument that starts with a premise that may not be true. It assumes that the 717s were a smart move, that DL couldn't have made MORE money with a different strategy, and that somehow DL can operate aircraft better than another airline. I'm sorry, but that's crazy. An airplane is an airplane. The difference isn't how they operate it. The difference is the decision making...

I'm of the opinion that the 100-130 seat category is simply not an efficient size at mainline pay rates. The per seat costs are higher than larger aircraft. The capital costs per capacity is also much higher, since it simply takes more frames to move the same amount of seats as larger aircraft. UA clearly doesn't see the current agreement of 100-seaters unlocking more large RJs as an optimal solution. And it's due to how the economics of small narrowbodies simply aren't as good.


Since DL has chosen to stay in the 100 seat category mainline aircraft game AND since DL's earnings have been better than UA's, the answer to your questions seems rather obvious.

MSPNWA wrote:
The difference is the decision making


Precisely.

This part of this discussion started with with comments about UA's Scope clause. At least until very recently, Kirby seemed to believe that he'd be able to get Scope concessions from ALPA. That hasn't happened. In the meantime, UA isn't able to grow the 76 seat RJ fleet while claiming that he wants UA to grow domestic feed (my understanding is that negotiations are continuing; dragging out negotiations is sure to have a negative impact on morale, unfortunately). Kirby can do both by ordering A220s or E195s. Given that the price of fuel has been increasing, the smart move* might well be to spend less in fuel per flight with a new 100 seater than a used 125-ish seater.

*I don't have access to UA's analysis - nor do you.
Last edited by FlyHossD on Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
FlyHossD
Posts: 2101
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:45 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:51 pm

calpsafltskeds wrote:
One of the largest differences between UA and DL is stage length and larger is better for pilots. According to planestats.com, 2Q2017 DL had a total avg stage of 1147miles (not sure if SM or NM) while UA's was 1602, or 40% longer than DL.


And interesting point, thank you.

Shorter stage lengths aren't necessarily a bad thing, if you're flying more of them. For example, 3 2.5 hour flights in a day gets you to 7.5 hours in that day. If your productivity is that high, you'll get more days off than if you're flying one 5 or 6 hour flight per day, eh?

Multiple short flights in a duty period is the norm at some carriers - Southwest comes to mind first.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
xxcr
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:44 pm

There was a spreadsheet showing the list of planes in the UA fleet with upgrades/mods/retrofits. Is there an updated one? UA seems to be moving fairly quick with the Polaris mods.
 
FlyHossD
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:53 pm

xxcr wrote:
There was a spreadsheet showing the list of planes in the UA fleet with upgrades/mods/retrofits. Is there an updated one? UA seems to be moving fairly quick with the Polaris mods.


This one?:

https://sites.google.com/site/unitedfle ... t-tracking

I'm not sure how up to date it is at the moment, though.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
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747d10
Posts: 245
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:55 pm

xxcr wrote:
There was a spreadsheet showing the list of planes in the UA fleet with upgrades/mods/retrofits. Is there an updated one? UA seems to be moving fairly quick with the Polaris mods.


https://sites.google.com/site/unitedfle ... l-upgrades
E145 E190 F100 L10/15 DC8 D8S D10 M11 D91/S/5 M80 M90 717 727/S 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/42/43/44 752 762/3/4 77E/L 788 A300 310 319 320 321 333 Concorde
AA AC AF AL AQ AS BN CI CO CX DL EA FL HA HU HY KL MC MU MX NA NC NW OZ PA PI QH RC SQ TI TW UA US WA 9K
 
xxcr
Posts: 468
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 6:37 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:08 pm

xxcr wrote:
There was a spreadsheet showing the list of planes in the UA fleet with upgrades/mods/retrofits. Is there an updated one? UA seems to be moving fairly quick with the Polaris mods.



Thank you!
 
UA444
Posts: 2998
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:03 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:11 pm

cosyr wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
FlyHossD wrote:
DL made a smart move and picked up the 717s from AirTran/Southwest and will soon start replacing those with A220s. How is it that DL's ability to operate 100 seat category aircraft is better than's UAL's? Is DL's management better than UA's?


Was it really a smart move to pick up relatively inefficient airplanes that will be replaced sooner than expected?

See, this is an overly simplistic argument that starts with a premise that may not be true. It assumes that the 717s were a smart move, that DL couldn't have made MORE money with a different strategy, and that somehow DL can operate aircraft better than another airline. I'm sorry, but that's crazy. An airplane is an airplane. The difference isn't how they operate it. The difference is the decision making. DL decided to grow with used, relatively inefficient airplanes. The end result of that strategy is still years away as DL is forced to buy more and more new airplanes to replace their aging fleet. Maybe DL could have made more money by buying new aircraft instead of used 717s. We can't say for sure. What we can say though is that it's much easier to "hide" a poor fleet decision when you have hundreds of airplanes and have the most market power in the industry to bring you high revenues that will offset high costs.

I'm of the opinion that the 100-130 seat category is simply not an efficient size at mainline pay rates. The per seat costs are higher than larger aircraft. The capital costs per capacity is also much higher, since it simply takes more frames to move the same amount of seats as larger aircraft. UA clearly doesn't see the current agreement of 100-seaters unlocking more large RJs as an optimal solution. And it's due to how the economics of small narrowbodies simply aren't as good.

There are way too many ifs to ever truly know the answers to these questions, even for DL management to answer. But the best way to gauge the success of something is their following decisions, in this case, buying more 100 seat planes to replace the 717's. Could the 717's be more efficient? Sure, otherwise we wouldn't compare operating costs between the 717 and the A220. But DL seems to think there is still money to be made with these planes. As for UA, they're obviously not sure. They may have different pay scales, they may have a different target ROI compared with DL, they may just be more cautious and/or less focused with their long term strategy.

By comparison, I once talked to a marketing manager at CO about Premium Economy back in early 2010, and I mentioned to him the success of Economy Plus that UA had been flying for almost 10 years at the time. He argued that just because UA had been flying it for 10 years, without giving up, was not proof that it made money for UA. Technically, that is true, as many companies keep money losers around for years, but later that month UA and CO announced their merger, UA expanded Y+ to CO planes and then DL and AA finally introduced it after all those years. Now, not only do all 3 airlines have Y+, but they all are introducing Premium Economy as well.

I’m not surprised someone from CO had that attitude seeing how Jeff Smisek wanted to kill E+ because he automatically assumed it lost money and then had to eat crow when found out it didn’t. That attitude has hampered the merger.
 
FlyHossD
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:24 pm

UA444 wrote:
’m not surprised someone from CO had that attitude seeing how Jeff Smisek wanted to kill E+ because he automatically assumed it lost money and then had to eat crow when found out it didn’t. That attitude has hampered the merger.


UA444 wrote:
That attitude has hampered the merger.


Has hampered the merger or haD hampered the merger? I think everyone at UAL is happy that Smisek is long since gone (yes, including the sCO employees).
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
United1
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:27 pm

Channel 9 is aparently alive and well...I'm listening to it on UA20. I know UA at one point was going to try and integrate it into the streaming system. Any progress on that?
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
redrooster3
Posts: 382
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:44 pm

United1 wrote:
Channel 9 is aparently alive and well...I'm listening to it on UA20. I know UA at one point was going to try and integrate it into the streaming system. Any progress on that?


UA20 IAH-AMS? A subCO aircraft shouldn't have channel 9 just yet!


Anywho, N647UA is gonna try once again 05SEP back to the mainland after polaris conversion. N642UA test hop after Polaris conversion. Im guessing they are using the same Pilots? 3 remaining 3-class, correct? N660UA, N641UA, N654UA are final three remaining 3-class for the 767-300s.
Marry one of us, and you'll fly for free!
 
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adamblang
Posts: 1263
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:39 pm

A thread over on FlyerTalk says these United aircraft have channel 9 in the seatback entertainment:

sUA 777-200ERs
sCO 777-200ERs
sUA 777-300ERs
sUA 777-200As
sUA 767-300ERs
sCO 767-400ERs
sUA 757-200
 
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calpsafltskeds
Posts: 3234
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:29 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:08 am

Yes, that is what I show on the Fleet site - that all sCO 772s and 764s have Channel 9 (if its turned on). Interesting that only international aircraft have Channel 9 (plus sUA 752) as lots of international flights would have less activity on the frequency. I show all Airbus and 737s w/o Channel 9.

The spreadsheet https://sites.google.com/site/unitedfle ... l-upgrades is up to date and has seat totals and other info at the bottom. Refresh the page if you've recently viewed it for up to date info.

FlyHossD:
Yes, shorter segments could add up to nearly 8 hour easier, but crew scheduling can have many ways of scheduling that ties a 5 hour flight with a sub 3 hour to get almost 8 hours of flying into maybe an 11 hour time frame with preflight and 1 hour turn. Compare that to 4 or 5 1:30 segments with an hour turn, which could run up against duty limits with 1:00 turns. Maybe we can defer to someone who knows crew scheduling more as to daily pairings and at least perceived popularity of 500 mile stage lengths vs. long UA type stages.

My guess is pilots would rather have 2 segments that total close to 8 hours vs 4 or 5. I've heard the Airline Pilot Guy podcast and Jeff is happy to make extra legs on an MD80) to stay domestic and be close to home. I'm sure all have different reasons for maybe sticking to a lower pay aircraft to stay close to home or be in one time zone, compared to some who'd rather have longer flights and maybe more layovers. In any case, its a great job that I was unable to achieve.

And, yes I've had issues with bankruptcy like many on this thread. My cousin was a very senior captain at CO when bankruptcy came - he chose PrideAir over flying through bankruptcy and I'm not sure if he regretted that. My wife became a member of the $7.50 club at CO when bankruptcy was declared - take it or leave it. I left CO when bankruptcy was on the horizon to move to another carrier - it worked out OK for me. Chapter 7 would have ended my wife's job as it would have with UA and other airline employees if they didn't reorganize and weather the storm.
 
jtdieffen
Posts: 115
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 2:46 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:00 am

https://sites.google.com/site/unitedfleetsite/

I've been following the UA fleet tracker for quite some time...very interesting to follow the progress as United inches toward a single, updated identity. There's a vast amount of detail captured, but there are a few questions that I'm wondering if anyone knows the answer to:

1) Of the ships not getting full Y seat replacements, what's the status of swapping the checkerboard covers for the signature covers? Specifically, 767-300ER (ships 664-77), 767-400, 787-8, 787-9 (ships 3950-55). I have seen some pics and videos that show at least some of these have been updated. Also, i flew on 787s 3906 & 3908 early this year and noticed they'd lost their checkers. Anyone have an idea on which have been updated?

2) I noticed that united.com now shows the reconfigured 757-300s as having ISP in every row. I remember it being mentioned here before that every seat would have ISP available, but the original map didn't reflect that. Anyone able to confirm if that's true? https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/travel/inflight/aircraft/757/300/default.aspx

3) Does anyone know if the sCO 753s are getting their Ka band wifi updated to Ku? It sounded like the goal was to simplify to one fleet type to simplify operations. I know this wouldn't restrict actual operations, it does impact customer experience on HI-bound flights since Ka is only available in the continental US as I understand it.

and finally

4) Similar question as #2 for the original 12 739...do they really only have ISP in F/Y+? The seat maps on united.com omit this version if it's true. I was on 3405 earlier this year, but didn't sit far enough back to investigate myself. https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/travel/inflight/aircraft/737/900/default.aspx
Regards! JDief
 
FlyHossD
Posts: 2101
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:45 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:07 am

calpsafltskeds wrote:
FlyHossD:
Yes, shorter segments could add up to nearly 8 hour easier, but crew scheduling can have many ways of scheduling that ties a 5 hour flight with a sub 3 hour to get almost 8 hours of flying into maybe an 11 hour time frame with preflight and 1 hour turn. Compare that to 4 or 5 1:30 segments with an hour turn, which could run up against duty limits with 1:00 turns. Maybe we can defer to someone who knows crew scheduling more as to daily pairings and at least perceived popularity of 500 mile stage lengths vs. long UA type stages.

My guess is pilots would rather have 2 segments that total close to 8 hours vs 4 or 5. I've heard the Airline Pilot Guy podcast and Jeff is happy to make extra legs on an MD80) to stay domestic and be close to home. I'm sure all have different reasons for maybe sticking to a lower pay aircraft to stay close to home or be in one time zone, compared to some who'd rather have longer flights and maybe more layovers. In any case, its a great job that I was unable to achieve.

And, yes I've had issues with bankruptcy like many on this thread. My cousin was a very senior captain at CO when bankruptcy came - he chose PrideAir over flying through bankruptcy and I'm not sure if he regretted that. My wife became a member of the $7.50 club at CO when bankruptcy was declared - take it or leave it. I left CO when bankruptcy was on the horizon to move to another carrier - it worked out OK for me. Chapter 7 would have ended my wife's job as it would have with UA and other airline employees if they didn't reorganize and weather the storm.


Thanks for the reply. i appreciate your viewpoint and opinion.

I flew the line for a long time, so I probably have a better understanding of what is important to pilots than you - of course, that's just my opinion.

As I recall, UAL's current pilot contract has a minimum average pay of 5 hours per day. So a 4 day trip pays at least 20 hours. The problem with a 5 hour per day average guarantee is that it doesn't encourage the company to schedule more than that per day (IIRC, WN's min per day is 6.5). So with relatively long average stage lengths like UA has, you'd often get just one flight per day - think EWR-SEA on day 1, SEA-IAH on day 2, etc.

This also reminds of several discussions I had with one of the union scheduling committee reps who swore that most pilots wanted a commutable schedule - so start in the afternoon (at the earliest) on day 1 and finish not too late on the last day. Such trip pairing construction lead to relatively low time trips (20 hour long 4 day trips), too. Every time I challenged him to support his claim with polling data, he couldn't and never emailed such data despite my requests.

Ultimately, each pilot has different preferences. Generally, it's seniority that controls the results.

Again, thanks for the reply. I do hope UA becomes as successful as DL.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
tpaewr
Posts: 724
Joined: Sat May 19, 2001 9:01 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:46 am

MSPNWA wrote:
FlyHossD wrote:
DL made a smart move and picked up the 717s from AirTran/Southwest and will soon start replacing those with A220s. How is it that DL's ability to operate 100 seat category aircraft is better than's UAL's? Is DL's management better than UA's?


Was it really a smart move to pick up relatively inefficient airplanes that will be replaced sooner than expected?

See, this is an overly simplistic argument that starts with a premise that may not be true. It assumes that the 717s were a smart move, that DL couldn't have made MORE money with a different strategy, and that somehow DL can operate aircraft better than another airline. I'm sorry, but that's crazy. An airplane is an airplane. The difference isn't how they operate it. The difference is the decision making. DL decided to grow with used, relatively inefficient airplanes. The end result of that strategy is still years away as DL is forced to buy more and more new airplanes to replace their aging fleet. Maybe DL could have made more money by buying new aircraft instead of used 717s. We can't say for sure. What we can say though is that it's much easier to "hide" a poor fleet decision when you have hundreds of airplanes and have the most market power in the industry to bring you high revenues that will offset high costs.

I'm of the opinion that the 100-130 seat category is simply not an efficient size at mainline pay rates. The per seat costs are higher than larger aircraft. The capital costs per capacity is also much higher, since it simply takes more frames to move the same amount of seats as larger aircraft. UA clearly doesn't see the current agreement of 100-seaters unlocking more large RJs as an optimal solution. And it's due to how the economics of small narrowbodies simply aren't as good.




DL received an incredible deal from WN. Not only did they get the 717 on awesome terms but even more important WN removed their biggest home town competitor in ATL. They were literally celebrating it in the GO in Atlanta.
 
kaitakfan
Posts: 1547
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 1999 1:04 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:46 am

redrooster3 wrote:
Anywho, N647UA is gonna try once again 05SEP back to the mainland after polaris conversion. N642UA test hop after Polaris conversion. Im guessing they are using the same Pilots? 3 remaining 3-class, correct? N660UA, N641UA, N654UA are final three remaining 3-class for the 767-300s.


Only 647 has Pilots enroute to HKG right now. Was hoping 642 would get released today so I could trade out of my trip tomorrow to go grab her. Probably wouldn’t get it anyways as those trips are always getting snatched by “The Mafia” Pilots from EWR or ORD.
 
UAinAUS
Posts: 243
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:11 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:24 am

jtdieffen wrote:
https://sites.google.com/site/unitedfleetsite/

I've been following the UA fleet tracker for quite some time...very interesting to follow the progress as United inches toward a single, updated identity. There's a vast amount of detail captured, but there are a few questions that I'm wondering if anyone knows the answer to:

1) Of the ships not getting full Y seat replacements, what's the status of swapping the checkerboard covers for the signature covers? Specifically, 767-300ER (ships 664-77), 767-400, 787-8, 787-9 (ships 3950-55). I have seen some pics and videos that show at least some of these have been updated. Also, i flew on 787s 3906 & 3908 early this year and noticed they'd lost their checkers. Anyone have an idea on which have been updated?

2) I noticed that united.com now shows the reconfigured 757-300s as having ISP in every row. I remember it being mentioned here before that every seat would have ISP available, but the original map didn't reflect that. Anyone able to confirm if that's true? https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/travel/inflight/aircraft/757/300/default.aspx

3) Does anyone know if the sCO 753s are getting their Ka band wifi updated to Ku? It sounded like the goal was to simplify to one fleet type to simplify operations. I know this wouldn't restrict actual operations, it does impact customer experience on HI-bound flights since Ka is only available in the continental US as I understand it.

and finally

4) Similar question as #2 for the original 12 739...do they really only have ISP in F/Y+? The seat maps on united.com omit this version if it's true. I was on 3405 earlier this year, but didn't sit far enough back to investigate myself. https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/travel/inflight/aircraft/737/900/default.aspx


I don’t have all the answers but here’s some info...

1. The 752s have all been having seat covers replaced as they go in to SAT for maintenance. Should be complete early next year. The 7 763s not getting Polaris makeovers will keep their checkered seats in Y, all others are having new seat covers installed when the Polaris mods take place. 788 and early 789s have been having new signature seat covers installed when they go in for maintenance. This may have been completed already, or may still be in progress. The 764s as far as I know still have checkered seats and will only get them replaced with Polaris if/when that occurs. Does anyone know if new Y seat covers were installed on the ships that had new crew rest installed?

2. The ISP on that seatmap is new. Ammenities still list ISP as rows 1-21 only for each of those planes. No idea if power was installed. I would guess no power past row 21.

3. The 753s will keep the Wifi band they currently have, so 2 different types on that fleet. Which is annoying for HI flights on those birds. The Ka. Band wifi is under contract for those units (3851-3859).

4. Yes the original 12 non-ER 739s only have power in rows 1-21. They have the same specs as the 738s with regards to ISP.
 
jayunited
Posts: 3027
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:43 am

kaitakfan wrote:
Only 647 has Pilots enroute to HKG right now. Was hoping 642 would get released today so I could trade out of my trip tomorrow to go grab her. Probably wouldn’t get it anyways as those trips are always getting snatched by “The Mafia” Pilots from EWR or ORD.


LMAO!!!! I damn near spit my coffee out all over this computer. LMAO!!!
The best comment on this entire thread but it's so true these "Mafia crews" show up out of nowhere and snatch these trips up quick. The good ol' boys club exist no mater the department you work in.
 
codc10
Posts: 2910
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:52 pm

UAinAUS wrote:
jtdieffen wrote:
https://sites.google.com/site/unitedfleetsite/

I've been following the UA fleet tracker for quite some time...very interesting to follow the progress as United inches toward a single, updated identity. There's a vast amount of detail captured, but there are a few questions that I'm wondering if anyone knows the answer to:

1) Of the ships not getting full Y seat replacements, what's the status of swapping the checkerboard covers for the signature covers? Specifically, 767-300ER (ships 664-77), 767-400, 787-8, 787-9 (ships 3950-55). I have seen some pics and videos that show at least some of these have been updated. Also, i flew on 787s 3906 & 3908 early this year and noticed they'd lost their checkers. Anyone have an idea on which have been updated?

2) I noticed that united.com now shows the reconfigured 757-300s as having ISP in every row. I remember it being mentioned here before that every seat would have ISP available, but the original map didn't reflect that. Anyone able to confirm if that's true? https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/travel/inflight/aircraft/757/300/default.aspx

3) Does anyone know if the sCO 753s are getting their Ka band wifi updated to Ku? It sounded like the goal was to simplify to one fleet type to simplify operations. I know this wouldn't restrict actual operations, it does impact customer experience on HI-bound flights since Ka is only available in the continental US as I understand it.

and finally

4) Similar question as #2 for the original 12 739...do they really only have ISP in F/Y+? The seat maps on united.com omit this version if it's true. I was on 3405 earlier this year, but didn't sit far enough back to investigate myself. https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/travel/inflight/aircraft/737/900/default.aspx


I don’t have all the answers but here’s some info...

1. The 752s have all been having seat covers replaced as they go in to SAT for maintenance. Should be complete early next year. The 7 763s not getting Polaris makeovers will keep their checkered seats in Y, all others are having new seat covers installed when the Polaris mods take place. 788 and early 789s have been having new signature seat covers installed when they go in for maintenance. This may have been completed already, or may still be in progress. The 764s as far as I know still have checkered seats and will only get them replaced with Polaris if/when that occurs. Does anyone know if new Y seat covers were installed on the ships that had new crew rest installed?

2. The ISP on that seatmap is new. Ammenities still list ISP as rows 1-21 only for each of those planes. No idea if power was installed. I would guess no power past row 21.

3. The 753s will keep the Wifi band they currently have, so 2 different types on that fleet. Which is annoying for HI flights on those birds. The Ka. Band wifi is under contract for those units (3851-3859).

4. Yes the original 12 non-ER 739s only have power in rows 1-21. They have the same specs as the 738s with regards to ISP.


764s mostly all have leather seat covers now, at least those I’ve flown lately with and without crew rest mods.
 
kaitakfan
Posts: 1547
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 1999 1:04 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:51 pm

jayunited wrote:
kaitakfan wrote:
Only 647 has Pilots enroute to HKG right now. Was hoping 642 would get released today so I could trade out of my trip tomorrow to go grab her. Probably wouldn’t get it anyways as those trips are always getting snatched by “The Mafia” Pilots from EWR or ORD.


LMAO!!!! I damn near spit my coffee out all over this computer. LMAO!!!
The best comment on this entire thread but it's so true these "Mafia crews" show up out of nowhere and snatch these trips up quick. The good ol' boys club exist no mater the department you work in.


It’s so sad that it’s funny how the mafia crews are all over the place in different companies and departments. The trip to pick up 647 had serious signs of mafia all over it. I’m filing a PDR with ALPA, but I’m sure it’s going to get dismissed as no monkey business that they could see.
 
tpaewr
Posts: 724
Joined: Sat May 19, 2001 9:01 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:56 pm

codc10 wrote:
UAinAUS wrote:
jtdieffen wrote:
https://sites.google.com/site/unitedfleetsite/

I've been following the UA fleet tracker for quite some time...very interesting to follow the progress as United inches toward a single, updated identity. There's a vast amount of detail captured, but there are a few questions that I'm wondering if anyone knows the answer to:

1) Of the ships not getting full Y seat replacements, what's the status of swapping the checkerboard covers for the signature covers? Specifically, 767-300ER (ships 664-77), 767-400, 787-8, 787-9 (ships 3950-55). I have seen some pics and videos that show at least some of these have been updated. Also, i flew on 787s 3906 & 3908 early this year and noticed they'd lost their checkers. Anyone have an idea on which have been updated?

2) I noticed that united.com now shows the reconfigured 757-300s as having ISP in every row. I remember it being mentioned here before that every seat would have ISP available, but the original map didn't reflect that. Anyone able to confirm if that's true? https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/travel/inflight/aircraft/757/300/default.aspx

3) Does anyone know if the sCO 753s are getting their Ka band wifi updated to Ku? It sounded like the goal was to simplify to one fleet type to simplify operations. I know this wouldn't restrict actual operations, it does impact customer experience on HI-bound flights since Ka is only available in the continental US as I understand it.

and finally

4) Similar question as #2 for the original 12 739...do they really only have ISP in F/Y+? The seat maps on united.com omit this version if it's true. I was on 3405 earlier this year, but didn't sit far enough back to investigate myself. https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/travel/inflight/aircraft/737/900/default.aspx


I don’t have all the answers but here’s some info...

1. The 752s have all been having seat covers replaced as they go in to SAT for maintenance. Should be complete early next year. The 7 763s not getting Polaris makeovers will keep their checkered seats in Y, all others are having new seat covers installed when the Polaris mods take place. 788 and early 789s have been having new signature seat covers installed when they go in for maintenance. This may have been completed already, or may still be in progress. The 764s as far as I know still have checkered seats and will only get them replaced with Polaris if/when that occurs. Does anyone know if new Y seat covers were installed on the ships that had new crew rest installed?

2. The ISP on that seatmap is new. Ammenities still list ISP as rows 1-21 only for each of those planes. No idea if power was installed. I would guess no power past row 21.

3. The 753s will keep the Wifi band they currently have, so 2 different types on that fleet. Which is annoying for HI flights on those birds. The Ka. Band wifi is under contract for those units (3851-3859).

4. Yes the original 12 non-ER 739s only have power in rows 1-21. They have the same specs as the 738s with regards to ISP.


764s mostly all have leather seat covers now, at least those I’ve flown lately with and without crew rest mods.



I loath the new leather seats. The old checker fabric was so much more comfortable. But now that we don’t refresh them (or anything) as often I can see the need for something more durable.
 
User avatar
calpsafltskeds
Posts: 3234
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:29 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:55 pm

763:
N647UA sked to exit HKG 2799/6Sep with Polaris/ no PE
I don't see any movement of N641/54/60UA toward HKG
 
xxcr
Posts: 468
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 6:37 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:34 pm

VC10er wrote:
adamblang wrote:
VC10er wrote:
I realize that United needs to put the HD 772 to some destinations as some 772’s are off line being “Polarisized”- it’s only the fact they can cost $7,500+ one way from Madrid to EWR that bugs me. It’s really an inferior seat today for international business. But, it’s all temporary.

The dense IPTE forward/rear business seats on the HD 772s are the same dense IPTE forward/rear business seats on the 21 unconverted 3-cabin sUA 772s still doing routes like ORD-HKG, EWR-GRU, and IAD-FRA every day. Same seat, density, and experience in $8,966 business on an IPTE 772 doing ORD-HKG as in $5,819 business on an HD 772 doing ERW-MAD. I'll agree they're not super competitive with other carries in the market now – as would, apparently, the decision makes who green-lit updating the ERs with new cabins – but the business experience on those domestic frames doing TATL ops isn't any worse than what's on offer on ULH routes. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Thanks adamblang, gosh, I did not realize there were 21 of the 3 Class 772’s! I’ve flown the EWR-GRU many times and always got myself into old Global F one way or another, miles or certificate. The last time was about 6 weeks ago, and before that it was about 10 weeks or so, ea time I leave I think “well, goodbye, that’s the last time in that F seat” (which I love) and again I find myself back in it!
I really don’t hate those seats as much as others do, in fact so long as I get a window, I sleep like the dead in them. I find them extremely comfortable beds even if narrow. I always bring a drawstring bag since there’s virtually no storage. A bit like the UA recliner that preceded it (a recliner I also liked)
Are those 21 772’s in the front of the line to be refurbished? IMHO, it really is being in the true middle of that seat when the ticket price feels very high vs Cathay etc, etc (although I’ve never checked out the price differences)
Last: I need to figure out how to make the shrugging person on my iPhone, here goes: -\_(”)_/- (How do you make the smile?)



the 3-class 772 are the first to get the polaris mods and PE seats. The s-CO 2-class will be last of the 777 family to get the polaris mod. They are trying to get rid of the 3-class planes ASAP.
 
United1
Posts: 4194
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:38 pm

redrooster3 wrote:
United1 wrote:
Channel 9 is aparently alive and well...I'm listening to it on UA20. I know UA at one point was going to try and integrate it into the streaming system. Any progress on that?


UA20 IAH-AMS? A subCO aircraft shouldn't have channel 9 just yet!


All of the sCO 772s had it installed shortly after the merger. I just hadn't heard it in a few years so assumed it had been done away with. When you display the flight map channel 9 audio comes up along with the map.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 3698
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:48 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:43 pm

FlyHossD wrote:
Since DL has chosen to stay in the 100 seat category mainline aircraft game AND since DL's earnings have been better than UA's, the answer to your questions seems rather obvious.


Correlation =/= causation. Your answer is obviously not reliable.

Far more airlines are avoiding the 100-130 seat category than buying it. It doesn't tell us what's right, but it gives us another big clue as to the possible inefficiency of even the newest small narrowbodies.
 
User avatar
adamblang
Posts: 1263
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 5:47 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:39 am

It's interesting that two North American network airlines with 100-seat mainline feel it's worth investing in (Delta and JetBlue with their A220 orders), two North American network airlines with 100-seat mainline are reported to be working at getting rid of it (Air Canada and American), and two North American network airlines without are silent on it (Alaska and WestJet).

Which suggests to me sometimes 100-seat mainline works and sometimes it doesn't.
 
iahcsr
Posts: 4777
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 1999 2:59 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:17 am

763
N647UA is currently showing ‘taxing to runway’ for UA2799 HKGHNL... appears N641UA will take its place.
Working Hard, Flying Right Friendly....
 
iahcsr
Posts: 4777
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 1999 2:59 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:54 am

iahcsr wrote:
763
N647UA is currently showing ‘taxing to runway’ for UA2799 HKGHNL... appears N641UA will take its place.

Oops, spoke too soon. Gate return for MX... :roll:
Working Hard, Flying Right Friendly....
 
User avatar
cosyr
Posts: 1483
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:23 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:49 pm

adamblang wrote:
It's interesting that two North American network airlines with 100-seat mainline feel it's worth investing in (Delta and JetBlue with their A220 orders), two North American network airlines with 100-seat mainline are reported to be working at getting rid of it (Air Canada and American), and two North American network airlines without are silent on it (Alaska and WestJet).

Which suggests to me sometimes 100-seat mainline works and sometimes it doesn't.

I wonder if B6, AC and AA would feel differently if they were flying the E2's instead of the originals? Obviously, there's no way to tell, but I think the fuel use gap will narrow with the 2nd gen. We've talked about UA changing scope to allow more 76ers for more 737's, but I think it might just be reasonable to expand it to allow the A220-300, maybe with some percentage differences, like 1 76er for every 2 A221 or every 3 A223. I still feel like eventually the A221 will be like the 762 or maybe what the 788 will become. Once airlines get the larger variant, they won't like the smaller anymore.
 
User avatar
calpsafltskeds
Posts: 3234
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:29 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:57 pm

Doesn't it look like the E2 is a dead duck due to scope clauses? Wiki says.
E175E2 is too heavy for scope clause and the extra row vs. E175 pushes it over 76 seats.
E195E2, does it have too many seats to be part of scope clause that would allow added 76 seaters?
E190E2 might be the only aircraft if flown by mainline crews that could allow addition of 76 seaters via scope clause.
Then there is always the trade-off of higher ownership costs vs. savings in maintenance and fuel. If flown short haul, overall fuel savings might not equal the higher purchase and ownership costs.

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