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intotheair
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon May 07, 2018 6:23 am

Does any airline really have any plans to roll out an all-aisle J product in a narrowbody? UA, DL, and AA's 757s all have a variation of the Diamond seat, and I don't think any of them have any plans to substantially redo those cabins. The only thing better than that is the Super Diamond F seat in AA's A321Ts, which is obviously neither a J product nor would it be the right density to replace the Diamond seats. I suppose there's also the B6 Mint seat, which is closer to the same density as the Diamond, but it's not completely all-aisle access, and I'm guessing there's probably some sort of exclusivity agreement on that design that would prevent an airline like UA from choosing it.
300 319 320 321 332 333 345 346 717 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 762 763 772 788 789 CR2 CR7 CR9 Q400 E175 DC10 MD82 MD90
AA AF AS AY AZ B6 BA BR DL F9 FI GA HA KF LH MI QX SK SN SQ UA US VY WN
 
VC10er
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon May 07, 2018 8:13 am

I just wish to be clear; I don’t “hate” the CO Diamond seat and agreed that a 752 Non-stop to some secondary cities beats connections in a fancier seat. But, I do take some issue with charging $7400 to fly J on those birds WHEN and AFTER the rest of the fleet is fully completed.
In my mind it is a Brand Experience mistake that flies in the face of United’s ultimate goal. If they have no solution coming (and announced) by 2020 for the replacement of the 752 (and the clock is ticking) I think they will stand out as real clunkers on international routes, not just the seats, but entire cabin atmosphere.
That said, moving them all to domestic trips would be smart IMHO as there are some very long routes flown by 737s and Airbus narrow bodies (SFO/MIA for one, and/or other coast to coast or hub to hub) where the CO bed seat would actually further the Brand Experience for Premium fliers.
If by chance (and I’ve read it here, so maybe it’s bunk) a Polaris 767 from EWR-SFO/LAX connecting to Asia and Oz would be a great way to offer a seamless premium experience end to end. Especially if the new W was installed.
The new W in a premium heavy 767 would remind me of the very first p.s. routes, where “business” was actually more popular on those 3 class 752s!
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
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cosyr
Posts: 1150
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon May 07, 2018 1:06 pm

tpaewr wrote:
The 752 permit routes that just are not going to work otherwise. Frankly, I would vastly rather take an "older" seat nonstop to ARN/OPO/LIS/SNN/EDI etc. Than have to conx in FRA.


That was what made old United some limited. Nothing Just 3 cabin widebodies forced them from everything but the biggest hubs.


If UA walks away from what CO built DL (and soon B6) will only be Too Happy to fill in the gap. There is life beyond double connections in FRA

I completely agree, and given their limited range, and the routes they typically fly, the flights just aren't long enough for those seat differences to matter so much anyway. I hate connecting in Europe, when I could just exit customs and get in a cab. It takes all the stress off connection times, and delays the night before, etc.
 
Okcflyer
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon May 07, 2018 1:14 pm

They could also do low-cost make over with seat covers, key panels, bulk heads, etc to make the aircraft appear substantially similar to true Polaris aircraft without the 10’s of millions of costs of new seats.
 
gwrudolph
Posts: 274
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 3:46 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon May 07, 2018 1:42 pm

VC10er wrote:
I just wish to be clear; I don’t “hate” the CO Diamond seat and agreed that a 752 Non-stop to some secondary cities beats connections in a fancier seat. But, I do take some issue with charging $7400 to fly J on those birds WHEN and AFTER the rest of the fleet is fully completed.
In my mind it is a Brand Experience mistake that flies in the face of United’s ultimate goal. If they have no solution coming (and announced) by 2020 for the replacement of the 752 (and the clock is ticking) I think they will stand out as real clunkers on international routes, not just the seats, but entire cabin atmosphere.
That said, moving them all to domestic trips would be smart IMHO as there are some very long routes flown by 737s and Airbus narrow bodies (SFO/MIA for one, and/or other coast to coast or hub to hub) where the CO bed seat would actually further the Brand Experience for Premium fliers.
If by chance (and I’ve read it here, so maybe it’s bunk) a Polaris 767 from EWR-SFO/LAX connecting to Asia and Oz would be a great way to offer a seamless premium experience end to end. Especially if the new W was installed.
The new W in a premium heavy 767 would remind me of the very first p.s. routes, where “business” was actually more popular on those 3 class 752s!


I don't quite understand your proposal. If they move all of the 752s t domestic, they won't be able to fly some/all of those routes because they don't have a suitable replacement to use. In some of the cases, the 763 would be too big, and even if it wasn't, with the exception of the 3 HA units coming in, the 763 fleet is fairly occupied
 
CONTACREW
Posts: 921
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:29 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon May 07, 2018 5:03 pm

gwrudolph wrote:
VC10er wrote:
I just wish to be clear; I don’t “hate” the CO Diamond seat and agreed that a 752 Non-stop to some secondary cities beats connections in a fancier seat. But, I do take some issue with charging $7400 to fly J on those birds WHEN and AFTER the rest of the fleet is fully completed.
In my mind it is a Brand Experience mistake that flies in the face of United’s ultimate goal. If they have no solution coming (and announced) by 2020 for the replacement of the 752 (and the clock is ticking) I think they will stand out as real clunkers on international routes, not just the seats, but entire cabin atmosphere.
That said, moving them all to domestic trips would be smart IMHO as there are some very long routes flown by 737s and Airbus narrow bodies (SFO/MIA for one, and/or other coast to coast or hub to hub) where the CO bed seat would actually further the Brand Experience for Premium fliers.
If by chance (and I’ve read it here, so maybe it’s bunk) a Polaris 767 from EWR-SFO/LAX connecting to Asia and Oz would be a great way to offer a seamless premium experience end to end. Especially if the new W was installed.
The new W in a premium heavy 767 would remind me of the very first p.s. routes, where “business” was actually more popular on those 3 class 752s!


I don't quite understand your proposal. If they move all of the 752s t domestic, they won't be able to fly some/all of those routes because they don't have a suitable replacement to use. In some of the cases, the 763 would be too big, and even if it wasn't, with the exception of the 3 HA units coming in, the 763 fleet is fairly occupied


They aren't moving all of the 752s to domestic.
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atrude777
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon May 07, 2018 9:35 pm

I just flew United 6 times the past week...

1 737-900
2 737-800
3 Airbus A319

The 739 and A319 did NOT offer to me any form of closed captions or subtitles sadly. Even Direct TV on my 737-800, the movie did not have caption even though I had it activated.

Overall this is not a huge thing for 90% of the traveling public, but as a deaf one..it's a bummer I cannot watch movies TV's with caption, WN, DL, and AA all offer this.

ANY chance of UA going in and retrofitting the overhead bins to be bigger, and why did UA not go for this, like AA and Delta did for their planes? I think it would be a huge improvement to the on board customer service. A319/320/73G/738 none of them have the new overhead bins that everyone else does, and I think the last 4 738 deliveries had them and some of the 739's?

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
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cosyr
Posts: 1150
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon May 07, 2018 9:48 pm

atrude777 wrote:
I just flew United 6 times the past week...

1 737-900
2 737-800
3 Airbus A319

The 739 and A319 did NOT offer to me any form of closed captions or subtitles sadly. Even Direct TV on my 737-800, the movie did not have caption even though I had it activated.

Overall this is not a huge thing for 90% of the traveling public, but as a deaf one..it's a bummer I cannot watch movies TV's with caption, WN, DL, and AA all offer this.

ANY chance of UA going in and retrofitting the overhead bins to be bigger, and why did UA not go for this, like AA and Delta did for their planes? I think it would be a huge improvement to the on board customer service. A319/320/73G/738 none of them have the new overhead bins that everyone else does, and I think the last 4 738 deliveries had them and some of the 739's?

Alex

I'm not sure which overhead bins you're talking about that American and Delta have, that United doesn't. United did upgrade the doors on all their A319/320 bins to accommodate larger bags. All 3 airlines have larger bins on newer 737's and not on older ones, so it's not like AA/DL replaced a bunch and UA didn't.
 
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calpsafltskeds
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon May 07, 2018 10:17 pm

For what its worth, UA looks to be operating 12 752 across the pond this Summer. Routes flown by distance from longest to shortest are:
EWR-ARN/MAN/OPO/EDI/GLA/KEF (NOTE: EWR-DUB 772A, EWR-LIS 763)
IAD-LIS/EDI/DUB
ORD-EDI/DUB
None of these are super competitive and all but 3 are not the British Isles/Ireland/Iceland (ARN/LIS/OPO).
If UA had 2 widebodied units they could serve these 3 routes operating 5 days per week (with more seats, service could drop from daily.)
sites.google.com/site/unitedfleetsite/
 
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calpsafltskeds
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon May 07, 2018 10:23 pm

UA has space bins on the newest 11 738s and newest 6 739ERs. They allow rollerbags to stand lengthwise and upright, allowing something like 33% more rollerbags. roller
I'm wondering if part of the Basic Economy concept is to relieve baggage issues as rollerbags aren't allowed without a fee.
One of the only good things about flying on Frontier or Spirit is quicker boarding due to fewer bags.

753:
N78866 exited MIA 2799/7May with slimline seats
Last edited by calpsafltskeds on Mon May 07, 2018 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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CONTACREW
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon May 07, 2018 10:27 pm

calpsafltskeds wrote:
For what its worth, UA looks to be operating 12 752 across the pond this Summer. Routes flown by distance from longest to shortest are:
EWR-ARN/MAN/OPO/EDI/GLA/KEF (NOTE: EWR-DUB 772A, EWR-LIS 763)
IAD-LIS/EDI/DUB
ORD-EDI/DUB
None of these are super competitive and all but 3 are not the British Isles/Ireland/Iceland (ARN/LIS/OPO).
If UA had 2 widebodied units they could serve these 3 routes operating 5 days per week (with more seats, service could drop from daily.)


EWR-HAM is being operated with a 752 all summer.
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CapitalAvGeek
Posts: 93
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon May 07, 2018 10:29 pm

calpsafltskeds wrote:
For what its worth, UA looks to be operating 12 752 across the pond this Summer. Routes flown by distance from longest to shortest are:
EWR-ARN/MAN/OPO/EDI/GLA/KEF (NOTE: EWR-DUB 772A, EWR-LIS 763)
IAD-LIS/EDI/DUB
ORD-EDI/DUB
None of these are super competitive and all but 3 are not the British Isles/Ireland/Iceland (ARN/LIS/OPO).
If UA had 2 widebodied units they could serve these 3 routes operating 5 days per week (with more seats, service could drop from daily.)

UA is also flying the morning IAD-LHR flight with a 752. I don’t know if you want to include the IAD-MAD flight as well. It’s operated by a 752 for part of the summer, other than July and August, when it switches to a 763.
 
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calpsafltskeds
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon May 07, 2018 10:30 pm

Sorry, I missed HAM , which is slightly shorter than ARN. Without checking, I assume all LHR and AMS service is widebody this summer.
sites.google.com/site/unitedfleetsite/
 
cruiseshipcrew
Posts: 232
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon May 07, 2018 10:43 pm

I finally signed up for the monthly wifi package last week and already regretting it. I'm going to put in for a refund or ask for them to push back the start date. Since purchasing I have done five flights and only one flight was the wifi working. I know they are working on improving their connection issues however I hope they do it sooner than later. I can't imagine how many refund requests that department has been getting recently.
James - Road Warrior
 
CONTACREW
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon May 07, 2018 10:57 pm

calpsafltskeds wrote:
Sorry, I missed HAM , which is slightly shorter than ARN. Without checking, I assume all LHR and AMS service is widebody this summer.


One of the EWR-LHR-LHR flights switches to a 752 Aug 1. 110 EWR-LHR 15 LHR-EWR.
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CONTACREW
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon May 07, 2018 11:00 pm

calpsafltskeds wrote:
For what its worth, UA looks to be operating 12 752 across the pond this Summer. Routes flown by distance from longest to shortest are:
EWR-ARN/MAN/OPO/EDI/GLA/KEF (NOTE: EWR-DUB 772A, EWR-LIS 763)
IAD-LIS/EDI/DUB
ORD-EDI/DUB
None of these are super competitive and all but 3 are not the British Isles/Ireland/Iceland (ARN/LIS/OPO).
If UA had 2 widebodied units they could serve these 3 routes operating 5 days per week (with more seats, service could drop from daily.)


There's also EWR-LIM which isn't across the pond but just as long or longer then some of the EWR-TATL 752s.
Flight Attendants prepare doors for departure, cross check verify straps standby for all call
 
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FlightLevel360
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon May 07, 2018 11:10 pm

atrude777 wrote:
I just flew United 6 times the past week...

1 737-900
2 737-800
3 Airbus A319

The 739 and A319 did NOT offer to me any form of closed captions or subtitles sadly. Even Direct TV on my 737-800, the movie did not have caption even though I had it activated.

Overall this is not a huge thing for 90% of the traveling public, but as a deaf one..it's a bummer I cannot watch movies TV's with caption, WN, DL, and AA all offer this.

ANY chance of UA going in and retrofitting the overhead bins to be bigger, and why did UA not go for this, like AA and Delta did for their planes? I think it would be a huge improvement to the on board customer service. A319/320/73G/738 none of them have the new overhead bins that everyone else does, and I think the last 4 738 deliveries had them and some of the 739's?

Alex


For the 737-800, N76528-N77542 have the sky interior pivoting bins. Out of those, N76532-N77542 are the PDE-only aircraft (no DirecTV) and have the even large space bins.
For the 737-900, N73445-N38479 and N68801-N63899 have the sky interior pivoting bins, and N62895-N63899, as well as N38479, have the space bins.
I don't think they are willing to make this investment. They seem to be willing to do more gate checks in general. When I was at RDU the other day, I saw an A319 go out of overhead bins space as Group 3 started boarding. That's the majority of economy class passengers on that flight...

Even more so, United's entertainment selection on its PDE equipped aircraft is much inferior compared to its international fleet, with only 20 movies and 2 TV shows. I've heard the domestic 777 has pretty much the full international selection, and even has gaming support (according to unitedprivatescreening.com). For flights under 3 hours I honestly don't mind, but for longer flights, like transcons (United used to do them with 737-900ERs before competition got intense), and flights to ANC, I can see that becoming a problem. Hopefully the 737 MAX 9 comes with a better storage system to allow for more content.
 
jhsusman
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2015 10:06 pm

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue May 08, 2018 3:01 am

Is the DEN - LHR on the 788 going to operate year-round? I wonder how loads are doing. . .
 
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calpsafltskeds
Posts: 2641
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue May 08, 2018 4:14 am

739:
N72405 entered HOU 2798/6May, exited HOU 2787/7May - rather doubt scimitars could  be installed in 26 hours.  Can someone verify?

753:
N78866 exited MIA 2799/7May with slimlines

764:
​​​​​​​N78060 entered MCO 2795/7May
sites.google.com/site/unitedfleetsite/
 
panam330
Posts: 2060
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue May 08, 2018 5:20 am

jhsusman wrote:
Is the DEN - LHR on the 788 going to operate year-round? I wonder how loads are doing. . .

Unfortunately, it's seasonal. Ends on 26October.
 
VC10er
Posts: 3597
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue May 08, 2018 6:53 am

gwrudolph wrote:
VC10er wrote:
I just wish to be clear; I don’t “hate” the CO Diamond seat and agreed that a 752 Non-stop to some secondary cities beats connections in a fancier seat. But, I do take some issue with charging $7400 to fly J on those birds WHEN and AFTER the rest of the fleet is fully completed.
In my mind it is a Brand Experience mistake that flies in the face of United’s ultimate goal. If they have no solution coming (and announced) by 2020 for the replacement of the 752 (and the clock is ticking) I think they will stand out as real clunkers on international routes, not just the seats, but entire cabin atmosphere.
That said, moving them all to domestic trips would be smart IMHO as there are some very long routes flown by 737s and Airbus narrow bodies (SFO/MIA for one, and/or other coast to coast or hub to hub) where the CO bed seat would actually further the Brand Experience for Premium fliers.
If by chance (and I’ve read it here, so maybe it’s bunk) a Polaris 767 from EWR-SFO/LAX connecting to Asia and Oz would be a great way to offer a seamless premium experience end to end. Especially if the new W was installed.
The new W in a premium heavy 767 would remind me of the very first p.s. routes, where “business” was actually more popular on those 3 class 752s!


I don't quite understand your proposal. If they move all of the 752s t domestic, they won't be able to fly some/all of those routes because they don't have a suitable replacement to use. In some of the cases, the 763 would be too big, and even if it wasn't, with the exception of the 3 HA units coming in, the 763 fleet is fairly occupied


I think I have poorly expressed myself! Naturally if they moved all 752s to domestic there is no replacement in that size class, which I get is a better fit to certain destinations than the 763, and I don’t even know if UA will have enough 763s anyway (unless the 78J and 3 used 763s free enough 763s up)?- I guess what I’m asking is if by end of 2020 when the all wide bodies are complete with Polaris refits, WILL UA have decided on a 752 replacement and how long after 2020 would it take for those replacements be on property?
From everything I read UA has 2 choices: A321T or the “797” (MoM) which I would assume would still be a number of years away from 2020. If they decided on the A21 how long would they take to arrive? Last: I just presume the 737MAX is incapable of replacing the 752 in TATL operations?
Perhaps the lipstick mentioned above would help: new covers and bulkheads and bins in the Polaris design?
I simply believe it’s a mistake to have the current 752 still flying “as it is today” after 2020, especially if they cost the same as J in a true Polaris aircraft. They would be the dogs of the fleet crossing the Atlantic- even to get a non-stop, it’s just would be bad for the United brand to fly them “as is” and squandering the “potential” for becoming a great premier airline.
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
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FlightLevel360
Posts: 190
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue May 08, 2018 2:05 pm

VC10er wrote:
gwrudolph wrote:
VC10er wrote:
I just wish to be clear; I don’t “hate” the CO Diamond seat and agreed that a 752 Non-stop to some secondary cities beats connections in a fancier seat. But, I do take some issue with charging $7400 to fly J on those birds WHEN and AFTER the rest of the fleet is fully completed.
In my mind it is a Brand Experience mistake that flies in the face of United’s ultimate goal. If they have no solution coming (and announced) by 2020 for the replacement of the 752 (and the clock is ticking) I think they will stand out as real clunkers on international routes, not just the seats, but entire cabin atmosphere.
That said, moving them all to domestic trips would be smart IMHO as there are some very long routes flown by 737s and Airbus narrow bodies (SFO/MIA for one, and/or other coast to coast or hub to hub) where the CO bed seat would actually further the Brand Experience for Premium fliers.
If by chance (and I’ve read it here, so maybe it’s bunk) a Polaris 767 from EWR-SFO/LAX connecting to Asia and Oz would be a great way to offer a seamless premium experience end to end. Especially if the new W was installed.
The new W in a premium heavy 767 would remind me of the very first p.s. routes, where “business” was actually more popular on those 3 class 752s!


I don't quite understand your proposal. If they move all of the 752s t domestic, they won't be able to fly some/all of those routes because they don't have a suitable replacement to use. In some of the cases, the 763 would be too big, and even if it wasn't, with the exception of the 3 HA units coming in, the 763 fleet is fairly occupied


I think I have poorly expressed myself! Naturally if they moved all 752s to domestic there is no replacement in that size class, which I get is a better fit to certain destinations than the 763, and I don’t even know if UA will have enough 763s anyway (unless the 78J and 3 used 763s free enough 763s up)?- I guess what I’m asking is if by end of 2020 when the all wide bodies are complete with Polaris refits, WILL UA have decided on a 752 replacement and how long after 2020 would it take for those replacements be on property?
From everything I read UA has 2 choices: A321T or the “797” (MoM) which I would assume would still be a number of years away from 2020. If they decided on the A21 how long would they take to arrive? Last: I just presume the 737MAX is incapable of replacing the 752 in TATL operations?
Perhaps the lipstick mentioned above would help: new covers and bulkheads and bins in the Polaris design?
I simply believe it’s a mistake to have the current 752 still flying “as it is today” after 2020, especially if they cost the same as J in a true Polaris aircraft. They would be the dogs of the fleet crossing the Atlantic- even to get a non-stop, it’s just would be bad for the United brand to fly them “as is” and squandering the “potential” for becoming a great premier airline.


I agree that although its hard product is lacking, it is still perfectly acceptable for long domestic routes.
The 737 is NEVER a replacement for the 757.
A321neos will take a long time to acquire, because the current global backlog of A320neo aircraft is sold out until 2020-2021, and it would be hard to get extra delivery slots from then on until the middle of the decade. I think they are better off waiting for the MOM.
Furthermore, the reason why United bought the A350 was that Boeing had no 777 replacement with the payload and range that United wanted. Before that, the last time that they placed an Airbus order was the A320/19 long before the CO merger. Also, due to AA's most favored customer clause, I do not think that United will buy Airbus narrowbodies in the future, especially with a sCO-skewed board.
 
codc10
Posts: 2205
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue May 08, 2018 4:37 pm

FlightLevel360 wrote:
especially with a sCO-skewed board.


No longer the case, look it up. However, there is a retired Boeing exec still on the BOD who served one year on the CO board before the merger.
 
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FlightLevel360
Posts: 190
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue May 08, 2018 6:19 pm

codc10 wrote:
FlightLevel360 wrote:
especially with a sCO-skewed board.


No longer the case, look it up. However, there is a retired Boeing exec still on the BOD who served one year on the CO board before the merger.


Thank you for the info. Doesn't seem to stop them from having a Boeing-skewed fleet though.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue May 08, 2018 11:16 pm

FlightLevel360 wrote:
Also, due to AA's most favored customer clause, I do not think that United will buy Airbus narrowbodies in the future, especially with a sCO-skewed board.

That hasn't stopped Delta. They also had an older Airbus narrowbody fleet, and they still made the decision to go with the A321 (and the 739). Clearly Airbus was willing to make a deal substantial enough to lure orders and top-ups from Delta, even if that meant providing some sort of refund to American. I'm sure they would have offered something similar to United. However, their decision to go with the MAX instead is certainly driven by economics. They do not have a "sCO-skewed" board or management anymore, and their loyalties (like any business) lie in their shareholders rather than any manufacturer. They're in the business of making money, and the days of gentlemen's agreements between US manufacturers and airlines are long gone. United would purchase new Airbus narrowbodies if the right offer were on the table, but given the debacle around the 737-700 order, it's clear to me that Boeing goes the extra mile to retain United as a major customer...apparently further than Airbus will go.
 
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cosyr
Posts: 1150
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Wed May 09, 2018 1:08 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
FlightLevel360 wrote:
Also, due to AA's most favored customer clause, I do not think that United will buy Airbus narrowbodies in the future, especially with a sCO-skewed board.

That hasn't stopped Delta. They also had an older Airbus narrowbody fleet, and they still made the decision to go with the A321 (and the 739). Clearly Airbus was willing to make a deal substantial enough to lure orders and top-ups from Delta, even if that meant providing some sort of refund to American. I'm sure they would have offered something similar to United. However, their decision to go with the MAX instead is certainly driven by economics. They do not have a "sCO-skewed" board or management anymore, and their loyalties (like any business) lie in their shareholders rather than any manufacturer. They're in the business of making money, and the days of gentlemen's agreements between US manufacturers and airlines are long gone. United would purchase new Airbus narrowbodies if the right offer were on the table, but given the debacle around the 737-700 order, it's clear to me that Boeing goes the extra mile to retain United as a major customer...apparently further than Airbus will go.

Plus if all three were to put in huge orders with the same manufacturer, whoever was last would have to wait a lot longer to start receiving them, so logically, at least one of the 3 is going to order more from Boeing. In fact, no one here is asking if the fact that United has many delivery slots taken up (along with WN and others)with Boeing, is one of the reasons AA or DL might have been persuaded to keep buying from Airbus. I'm not saying that is the reason for their purchases, but all these things are factors.
 
gsg013
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Wed May 09, 2018 2:12 pm

I know that AA had the "most favorable customer" clause with Airbus re: A321. However I wonder if that would preclude them from essentially matching the AA A321 price for DL or UA and then giving a stronger discount on other aircraft like A330 or A350 to get around that clause?
 
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calpsafltskeds
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Wed May 09, 2018 3:57 pm

I really don't get the MOM concept. If you ask me a widebody needs fly TATL, which means cargo capacity, which means LD3s, which allows Polaris to fit with 4 sets across (787/777). That seems a lot like the 788 or pulled 783. How much cheaper would the 783 be to purchase and operate? The 787-3 range was less than the 753 - would it make Hawaii? Pretty worthless. The 783 kind of reminds me of the 762 non-ER, 772A or 763 non-ER. Are these really popular?
Could Boeing come up with an 8 across Y aircraft that took LD3s and Polaris would be roomy enough with 4 pods across? A300/A310 width?

Anything narrower and you're seeing a 763 sized tube with 3 Polaris pods across and maybe no LD3s. Two aisles take up more room per seat.

If a narrowbody, then what's special? A bit wider cabin?. Longer like the 753? Lighter with composites? Range to make something like EWR-TXL workable even in winter?

Either width, the ASM cost would have to be incredible to initiate the program.
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fun2fly
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Wed May 09, 2018 4:15 pm

I think we'll know more about the MOM in July at Farnborough If it's not moved forward to offer then, I'd say it's dead as the big users (AA, DL, UA) will be effectively forced into other a/c due to a/c age.

I somewhat feel Boeing has tipped its hand with the AA + 788 deal. With the mods, same seat size, commonality with existing fleet, improved performance, cargo, range, etc. + lower cost to purchase = seems like that's the 767 replacement. The first 788 wasn't that a/c which spawned the MOM concept. There are simply too few 757's to justify the market if the 788 takes the top portion + the fact that Airbus has captured a good amount with the 321LR leaves not much left for MOM.
 
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cosyr
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Wed May 09, 2018 5:32 pm

calpsafltskeds wrote:
I really don't get the MOM concept. If you ask me a widebody needs fly TATL, which means cargo capacity, which means LD3s, which allows Polaris to fit with 4 sets across (787/777). That seems a lot like the 788 or pulled 783. How much cheaper would the 783 be to purchase and operate? The 787-3 range was less than the 753 - would it make Hawaii? Pretty worthless. The 783 kind of reminds me of the 762 non-ER, 772A or 763 non-ER. Are these really popular?
Could Boeing come up with an 8 across Y aircraft that took LD3s and Polaris would be roomy enough with 4 pods across? A300/A310 width?

Anything narrower and you're seeing a 763 sized tube with 3 Polaris pods across and maybe no LD3s. Two aisles take up more room per seat.

If a narrowbody, then what's special? A bit wider cabin?. Longer like the 753? Lighter with composites? Range to make something like EWR-TXL workable even in winter?

Either width, the ASM cost would have to be incredible to initiate the program.

I liked the concept of the 3-3 narrowbody with the double-wide aisle, that allowed for 2 aisles and 2-1-2 or 1-2-1 J up front. It would be more comfortable in the back, more like a widebody in the front, lighter overall than a 767, and plenty of stretch possibility. Alternatively, if they could make a slightly narrower 767 cabin, still 2-3-2, but with 17.5" seats, not 18+, and built out of newer composites, maybe it could be light enough to have more 757 like fuel economy, with 767 style cabin. Eitherway, they have to draw a line in the sand somewhere, as some people will push the design smaller like a long range 737, and others will push it bigger like a stubby A330, which might as well just buy a 787. Otherwise, they're never going to build anything, because this is the trickiest part of the market.
 
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calpsafltskeds
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Wed May 09, 2018 9:02 pm

Report: United looking to replace Boeing 767 widebody jets - Just posted - A330NEO, 787???
https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/f ... 595069002/

73G:
N39728 exited MIA 2771/9May with slimlines
N25705 is last domestic w/o slimlines and in MIA mod - 1 GUM unit in Mod and one still flying w/o slimlines
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atcsundevil
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Thu May 10, 2018 1:08 am

calpsafltskeds wrote:
Report: United looking to replace Boeing 767 widebody jets - Just posted - A330NEO, 787???
https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/f ... 595069002/

73G:
N39728 exited MIA 2771/9May with slimlines
N25705 is last domestic w/o slimlines and in MIA mod - 1 GUM unit in Mod and one still flying w/o slimlines

I have to imagine Boeing has the advantage here. The A330neo hasn't sold well, and I'm guessing there's a reason for that. Clearly airlines aren't seeing the numbers they'd like to see. Boeing pulled off a big order from American to essentially accomplish the same thing (767 fleet replacement), and given United's sizable investment in the 787, I would expect more of the same.
 
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iahcsr
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Thu May 10, 2018 2:50 am

39M
N37502 HOUSKF UA2686 9May. SKF is a Boeing MX facility. If I read correctly the first six UA 39Ms will have WiFi installed there. The seventh and subsequent will have it installed on the FAL before delivery.
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1989worstyear
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Thu May 10, 2018 4:04 am

With the WB order coming up, has anyone heard any rumors about the timeframe for 763 retirement? Many are still less than 20.
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
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iahcsr
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Thu May 10, 2018 4:26 am

1989worstyear wrote:
With the WB order coming up, has anyone heard any rumors about the timeframe for 763 retirement? Many are still less than 20.

That can’t be determined with any certainty until firm dates for their replacements arrival have been decided.
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VC10er
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Thu May 10, 2018 8:53 am

I would have to think UA plans to fly their 767s for long enough to justify the cost of the refurbishments? Could it be possible that UA would strip out the new hard product from the 767s once the replacement aircraft start arriving and put the used seats etc on brand new aircraft?

Also, with the 2020 goal of every WB having been refit, which includes a large number of international 772s, how soon after those refits do the A350s start arriving?
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
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cosyr
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Thu May 10, 2018 1:22 pm

1989worstyear wrote:
With the WB order coming up, has anyone heard any rumors about the timeframe for 763 retirement? Many are still less than 20.

My guess is that UA doesn't actually mean for these to replace 763's, but really swap routes. Put new 787 or A330 on 763 routes and then move the 763's to more 752 routes. That should hold off need until MOM is clearer. I guess they would like to increase capacity, because at the moment there is nothing the same size as a 767. And I'm curious how these larger planes will affect airports like EWR and ORD for gates in the evening Europe rush.
 
gwrudolph
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Thu May 10, 2018 9:45 pm

VC10er wrote:
gwrudolph wrote:
VC10er wrote:
I just wish to be clear; I don’t “hate” the CO Diamond seat and agreed that a 752 Non-stop to some secondary cities beats connections in a fancier seat. But, I do take some issue with charging $7400 to fly J on those birds WHEN and AFTER the rest of the fleet is fully completed.
In my mind it is a Brand Experience mistake that flies in the face of United’s ultimate goal. If they have no solution coming (and announced) by 2020 for the replacement of the 752 (and the clock is ticking) I think they will stand out as real clunkers on international routes, not just the seats, but entire cabin atmosphere.
That said, moving them all to domestic trips would be smart IMHO as there are some very long routes flown by 737s and Airbus narrow bodies (SFO/MIA for one, and/or other coast to coast or hub to hub) where the CO bed seat would actually further the Brand Experience for Premium fliers.
If by chance (and I’ve read it here, so maybe it’s bunk) a Polaris 767 from EWR-SFO/LAX connecting to Asia and Oz would be a great way to offer a seamless premium experience end to end. Especially if the new W was installed.
The new W in a premium heavy 767 would remind me of the very first p.s. routes, where “business” was actually more popular on those 3 class 752s!


I don't quite understand your proposal. If they move all of the 752s t domestic, they won't be able to fly some/all of those routes because they don't have a suitable replacement to use. In some of the cases, the 763 would be too big, and even if it wasn't, with the exception of the 3 HA units coming in, the 763 fleet is fairly occupied


I think I have poorly expressed myself! Naturally if they moved all 752s to domestic there is no replacement in that size class, which I get is a better fit to certain destinations than the 763, and I don’t even know if UA will have enough 763s anyway (unless the 78J and 3 used 763s free enough 763s up)?- I guess what I’m asking is if by end of 2020 when the all wide bodies are complete with Polaris refits, WILL UA have decided on a 752 replacement and how long after 2020 would it take for those replacements be on property?
From everything I read UA has 2 choices: A321T or the “797” (MoM) which I would assume would still be a number of years away from 2020. If they decided on the A21 how long would they take to arrive? Last: I just presume the 737MAX is incapable of replacing the 752 in TATL operations?
Perhaps the lipstick mentioned above would help: new covers and bulkheads and bins in the Polaris design?
I simply believe it’s a mistake to have the current 752 still flying “as it is today” after 2020, especially if they cost the same as J in a true Polaris aircraft. They would be the dogs of the fleet crossing the Atlantic- even to get a non-stop, it’s just would be bad for the United brand to fly them “as is” and squandering the “potential” for becoming a great premier airline.


Agree with your re-statement. Indeed they will minimally need to clean up those 752s if they are to continue being competitive not only on TATL, but also in the premium transcon markets.
 
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calpsafltskeds
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Fri May 11, 2018 1:56 pm

I see that HA 763 N594HA, former 1986 build DL N116DL ferried from Marana to HNL and is now in service.
Could this bird start covering for N588HA, which is shown as a 7/18 transfer date to UA?
AirFleets shows HA has three more old DL build 763s in storage.
With 321 engine issues, would HA pull these from the desert to meet UA deliveries and cover for the 321 issues?

764:
N78060 exited MCO 2782/11May
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iahcsr
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Sun May 13, 2018 7:18 am

39M
N37504 B1 12May
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CALTECH
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Mon May 14, 2018 11:28 pm

6684 767-3CB 101 (HA) 684 (UA) 33466 N684UA 0890 Arrive 7/18 N588HA

6685 767-3CB 102 (HA) 685 (UA) 33467 N685UA 0894 Arrive 10/18 N590HA

6686 767-3CB 103 (HA) 686 (UA) 33468 N686UA 0898 Arrive 2018 N592HA
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SFOtoORD
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue May 15, 2018 12:11 am

CALTECH wrote:
6684 767-3CB 101 (HA) 684 (UA) 33466 N684UA 0890 Arrive 7/18 N588HA

6685 767-3CB 102 (HA) 685 (UA) 33467 N685UA 0894 Arrive 10/18 N590HA

6686 767-3CB 103 (HA) 686 (UA) 33468 N686UA 0898 Arrive 2018 N592HA


I wonder how long for the first one to get refitted and get STC? 6 months?
 
VC10er
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue May 15, 2018 12:00 pm

Can some clear something up for me that others probably already know? When it’s posted that a particular aircraft/s is ferried or exited XYZ or XXX or AAA airport, I presume that the airport indicates what maintenance is or was being performed?
Can someone help and clue me in on what airport codes indicate what?
Thanks so much, R
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calpsafltskeds
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue May 15, 2018 1:40 pm

Maybe the below will help.
As for when I post information
1.) I post all widebody movements on ANet into/out of any maintenance - If not listed, unknown or minor activity to be completed
2.) I post narrowbody movement on ANet into/out of maintenance bases where reconfiguration/mods are happening and usually post the reason.
3.) You can follow all movements on the Fleet site Home page under "Updates" on the right side below logo https://sites.google.com/site/unitedfleetsite/
4.) Fleet site has current aircraft in maintenance bases at this page https://sites.google.com/site/unitedfle ... e-aircraft

HKG, (Hong Kong) heavy widebody maint and reconf (also heavy GUM 737 maint)
LCQ, (Lake City FL) Airbus heavy and some medium heavy maint, Airbus Inductions and mods, 737NG reconfiguration
DLH, Duluth MN) Airbus maintenance
MIA, (Miami FL) 753 ISP, 763 main/WiFi, some 757 maint, 737NG reconfiguration and maintenance
HOU, (Houston Hobby) 737MAX Induction, 737 heavier maintenance, slimline seats, some shorter mod work
RFD, (Rockford IL) 752 scimitar winglets, 737NG reconfigurations, 753 slimlines
ILN (Wilmington) VQQ 763 maint
VQQ (Jacksonville FL Cecil Airport) some 763 maint
SFO (San Francisco) Airbus heavy D checks, heavy 772 maint, 737 C checks, other maint.
MCO (Orlando FL) maintenance, some mods.
IAH Houston Bush) light maint, slimlines on 73G
XMN (Xizman China), 772 maintenance and reconfigurations
PVG (Shanghai China), 788 modifications/WiFi
VCV (Victorville CA), AMA Amarillo TX, CWF (Lake Charles Chennault), FTW (fFort Worth) paint
SEA, (Seattle WA) 77W, 739 new delivery induction, some 789s as well
DEN, (Denver CO) 789 new delivery induction
sites.google.com/site/unitedfleetsite/
 
FSDan
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue May 15, 2018 2:05 pm

calpsafltskeds wrote:
Maybe the below will help.
As for when I post information
1.) I post all widebody movements on ANet into/out of any maintenance - If not listed, unknown or minor activity to be completed
2.) I post narrowbody movement on ANet into/out of maintenance bases where reconfiguration/mods are happening and usually post the reason.
3.) You can follow all movements on the Fleet site Home page under "Updates" on the right side below logo https://sites.google.com/site/unitedfleetsite/
4.) Fleet site has current aircraft in maintenance bases at this page https://sites.google.com/site/unitedfle ... e-aircraft

HKG, (Hong Kong) heavy widebody maint and reconf (also heavy GUM 737 maint)
LCQ, (Lake City FL) Airbus heavy and some medium heavy maint, Airbus Inductions and mods, 737NG reconfiguration
DLH, Duluth MN) Airbus maintenance
MIA, (Miami FL) 753 ISP, 763 main/WiFi, some 757 maint, 737NG reconfiguration and maintenance
HOU, (Houston Hobby) 737MAX Induction, 737 heavier maintenance, slimline seats, some shorter mod work
RFD, (Rockford IL) 752 scimitar winglets, 737NG reconfigurations, 753 slimlines
ILN (Wilmington) VQQ 763 maint
VQQ (Jacksonville FL Cecil Airport) some 763 maint
SFO (San Francisco) Airbus heavy D checks, heavy 772 maint, 737 C checks, other maint.
MCO (Orlando FL) maintenance, some mods.
IAH Houston Bush) light maint, slimlines on 73G
XMN (Xizman China), 772 maintenance and reconfigurations
PVG (Shanghai China), 788 modifications/WiFi
VCV (Victorville CA), AMA Amarillo TX, CWF (Lake Charles Chennault), FTW (fFort Worth) paint
SEA, (Seattle WA) 77W, 739 new delivery induction, some 789s as well
DEN, (Denver CO) 789 new delivery induction


Given all these maintenance stations, what do they use the big hangars at ORD, LAX, etc. for? Just day to day stuff?
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springtx
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue May 15, 2018 3:59 pm

Why is it taking so long to get the Max9 into service, with the 777-300 it only took 8 days, Max9 N67501 has been at HOU for 21 days.
 
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iahcsr
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue May 15, 2018 7:06 pm

springtx wrote:
Why is it taking so long to get the Max9 into service, with the 777-300 it only took 8 days, Max9 N67501 has been at HOU for 21 days.

It could be just waiting turn to have WiFi installed at SKF.. 7502 is there now. :scratchchin: I would’ve thought some crew training flights in the meantime at least though.
39M
N37506 B1 13May. 7504 had B1 the day before, but 7505 still not flown.
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atcsundevil
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue May 15, 2018 8:00 pm

calpsafltskeds wrote:
Maybe the below will help.
As for when I post information
1.) I post all widebody movements on ANet into/out of any maintenance - If not listed, unknown or minor activity to be completed
2.) I post narrowbody movement on ANet into/out of maintenance bases where reconfiguration/mods are happening and usually post the reason.
3.) You can follow all movements on the Fleet site Home page under "Updates" on the right side below logo https://sites.google.com/site/unitedfleetsite/
4.) Fleet site has current aircraft in maintenance bases at this page https://sites.google.com/site/unitedfle ... e-aircraft

HKG, (Hong Kong) heavy widebody maint and reconf (also heavy GUM 737 maint)
LCQ, (Lake City FL) Airbus heavy and some medium heavy maint, Airbus Inductions and mods, 737NG reconfiguration
DLH, Duluth MN) Airbus maintenance
MIA, (Miami FL) 753 ISP, 763 main/WiFi, some 757 maint, 737NG reconfiguration and maintenance
HOU, (Houston Hobby) 737MAX Induction, 737 heavier maintenance, slimline seats, some shorter mod work
RFD, (Rockford IL) 752 scimitar winglets, 737NG reconfigurations, 753 slimlines
ILN (Wilmington) VQQ 763 maint
VQQ (Jacksonville FL Cecil Airport) some 763 maint
SFO (San Francisco) Airbus heavy D checks, heavy 772 maint, 737 C checks, other maint.
MCO (Orlando FL) maintenance, some mods.
IAH Houston Bush) light maint, slimlines on 73G
XMN (Xizman China), 772 maintenance and reconfigurations
PVG (Shanghai China), 788 modifications/WiFi
VCV (Victorville CA), AMA Amarillo TX, CWF (Lake Charles Chennault), FTW (fFort Worth) paint
SEA, (Seattle WA) 77W, 739 new delivery induction, some 789s as well
DEN, (Denver CO) 789 new delivery induction

I'm pretty sure they were doing some 789 induction work at IAD, weren't they? I know at least a couple of them were delivered to IAD straight from CHS.
 
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iahcsr
Posts: 4519
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Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Tue May 15, 2018 10:08 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
calpsafltskeds wrote:
Maybe the below will help.
As for when I post information
1.) I post all widebody movements on ANet into/out of any maintenance - If not listed, unknown or minor activity to be completed
2.) I post narrowbody movement on ANet into/out of maintenance bases where reconfiguration/mods are happening and usually post the reason.
3.) You can follow all movements on the Fleet site Home page under "Updates" on the right side below logo https://sites.google.com/site/unitedfleetsite/
4.) Fleet site has current aircraft in maintenance bases at this page https://sites.google.com/site/unitedfle ... e-aircraft

HKG, (Hong Kong) heavy widebody maint and reconf (also heavy GUM 737 maint)
LCQ, (Lake City FL) Airbus heavy and some medium heavy maint, Airbus Inductions and mods, 737NG reconfiguration
DLH, Duluth MN) Airbus maintenance
MIA, (Miami FL) 753 ISP, 763 main/WiFi, some 757 maint, 737NG reconfiguration and maintenance
HOU, (Houston Hobby) 737MAX Induction, 737 heavier maintenance, slimline seats, some shorter mod work
RFD, (Rockford IL) 752 scimitar winglets, 737NG reconfigurations, 753 slimlines
ILN (Wilmington) VQQ 763 maint
VQQ (Jacksonville FL Cecil Airport) some 763 maint
SFO (San Francisco) Airbus heavy D checks, heavy 772 maint, 737 C checks, other maint.
MCO (Orlando FL) maintenance, some mods.
IAH Houston Bush) light maint, slimlines on 73G
XMN (Xizman China), 772 maintenance and reconfigurations
PVG (Shanghai China), 788 modifications/WiFi
VCV (Victorville CA), AMA Amarillo TX, CWF (Lake Charles Chennault), FTW (fFort Worth) paint
SEA, (Seattle WA) 77W, 739 new delivery induction, some 789s as well
DEN, (Denver CO) 789 new delivery induction

I'm pretty sure they were doing some 789 induction work at IAD, weren't they? I know at least a couple of them were delivered to IAD straight from CHS.

Yes, two were inducted at IAD... Most everyone has had a piece of the action. I expect the 78J will get likewise.
Working Hard, Flying Right Friendly....
 
VC10er
Posts: 3597
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

Re: United Fleet Upgrade Status - 2018

Wed May 16, 2018 10:00 am

calpsafltskeds wrote:
Maybe the below will help.
As for when I post information
1.) I post all widebody movements on ANet into/out of any maintenance - If not listed, unknown or minor activity to be completed
2.) I post narrowbody movement on ANet into/out of maintenance bases where reconfiguration/mods are happening and usually post the reason.
3.) You can follow all movements on the Fleet site Home page under "Updates" on the right side below logo https://sites.google.com/site/unitedfleetsite/
4.) Fleet site has current aircraft in maintenance bases at this page https://sites.google.com/site/unitedfle ... e-aircraft

HKG, (Hong Kong) heavy widebody maint and reconf (also heavy GUM 737 maint)
LCQ, (Lake City FL) Airbus heavy and some medium heavy maint, Airbus Inductions and mods, 737NG reconfiguration
DLH, Duluth MN) Airbus maintenance
MIA, (Miami FL) 753 ISP, 763 main/WiFi, some 757 maint, 737NG reconfiguration and maintenance
HOU, (Houston Hobby) 737MAX Induction, 737 heavier maintenance, slimline seats, some shorter mod work
RFD, (Rockford IL) 752 scimitar winglets, 737NG reconfigurations, 753 slimlines
ILN (Wilmington) VQQ 763 maint
VQQ (Jacksonville FL Cecil Airport) some 763 maint
SFO (San Francisco) Airbus heavy D checks, heavy 772 maint, 737 C checks, other maint.
MCO (Orlando FL) maintenance, some mods.
IAH Houston Bush) light maint, slimlines on 73G
XMN (Xizman China), 772 maintenance and reconfigurations
PVG (Shanghai China), 788 modifications/WiFi
VCV (Victorville CA), AMA Amarillo TX, CWF (Lake Charles Chennault), FTW (fFort Worth) paint
SEA, (Seattle WA) 77W, 739 new delivery induction, some 789s as well
DEN, (Denver CO) 789 new delivery induction


Thank you! That must have been an enormous amount of work. I truly appreciate it.
When you say “reconfigurations” as in XMN, or HKG that could/does indicate Polaris installations? What is the difference between a “mod/modification” and “reconfiguration”? - I’m assuming mods are smaller jobs than a full makeover ala: Polaris for 767s and 772s?
Thanks again and I will check out those links.
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.

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