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maps4ltd
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:10 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
Updated PDEW spreadsheet for 2018 Qtr 1.

Biggest gainers YOY
TPA
SAN
DEN
LAS
ATL

Losers:
PHX
Chicago
DC
SAN
SEA

Top unserved routes Qtr 1 (average for last 12 months)
ORF 45 (54)
RIC 39 (46)
ABQ 27 (38)
RNO 27 (34)
TUS 36 (34)


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing



Why is SAN one of the biggest winners AND losers?
All opinions expressed herein are mine and do not represent the views of Cape Air
 
Jshank83
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:30 pm

maps4ltd wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Updated PDEW spreadsheet for 2018 Qtr 1.

Biggest gainers YOY
TPA
SAN
DEN
LAS
ATL

Losers:
PHX
Chicago
DC
SAN
SEA

Top unserved routes Qtr 1 (average for last 12 months)
ORF 45 (54)
RIC 39 (46)
ABQ 27 (38)
RNO 27 (34)
TUS 36 (34)


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing



Why is SAN one of the biggest winners AND losers?


Loser should have been SAT... Brain fart on the San in San Antonio.
 
stlgph
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:57 am

Any shots of our new friends Sun Country sitting nice and pretty on the tarmac?
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TWA302
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Sat Oct 13, 2018 2:40 pm

[twoid][/twoid]
stlgph wrote:
Any shots of our new friends Sun Country sitting nice and pretty on the tarmac?


I know! One would think somebody at the airport or airline would have posted a picture somewhere first plane. All I can find is the good ole’ 727 photos from back in the 90s
 
PVD757
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:18 pm

Is STL-BOS only served by WN? If so, I bet F9 STL-PVD would do well.
 
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Narfish641
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:50 pm

I would find it odd if Delta sent their 767-300/ER down there. I know back then the airport could handle a 747 once! Too bad those days are gone...
Flew on:
SWA 737 738
 
Jshank83
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:27 pm

PVD757 wrote:
Is STL-BOS only served by WN? If so, I bet F9 STL-PVD would do well.


Yep, just WN. That is the one route I am surprised DL or JetBlue hasn't picked up also. WN keeps adding capacity to it though, which probably doesn't help one of the others start it. The fares are high on it for nonstop compared to other airports in the midwest. 2x as much usually. Maybe as DL adds a220s they can push a 175 to the route or something.
 
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usxguy
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:48 pm

Still shocking to see how big WN has gotten at STL, considering as a child I remember flying to LIT in a 737-200 out of the East Terminal, where it was simply a rounded glass building that had a curbside drop with an escalator leading up to the concourse where the ticket counter was located, and security on either side. This would have been late 1980s..
xx
 
stlgph
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:40 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
PVD757 wrote:
Is STL-BOS only served by WN? If so, I bet F9 STL-PVD would do well.


Yep, just WN. That is the one route I am surprised DL or JetBlue hasn't picked up also. WN keeps adding capacity to it though, which probably doesn't help one of the others start it. The fares are high on it for nonstop compared to other airports in the midwest. 2x as much usually. Maybe as DL adds a220s they can push a 175 to the route or something.


Very surprised Delta hasn't come in on this one. Of course Delta did say they are making a push to expand in Boston, so perhaps this will be a part of that.growth.
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stl07
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:09 pm

stlgph wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
PVD757 wrote:
Is STL-BOS only served by WN? If so, I bet F9 STL-PVD would do well.


Yep, just WN. That is the one route I am surprised DL or JetBlue hasn't picked up also. WN keeps adding capacity to it though, which probably doesn't help one of the others start it. The fares are high on it for nonstop compared to other airports in the midwest. 2x as much usually. Maybe as DL adds a220s they can push a 175 to the route or something.


Very surprised Delta hasn't come in on this one. Of course Delta did say they are making a push to expand in Boston, so perhaps this will be a part of that.growth.

they added KC, so I'm assuming STL is next
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Jshank83
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:26 am

So really random, I have been looking at booking a flight to Iceland on WOW in February and now all of the sudden all the flights from early Jan through March are $1,119 each way. I have to assume it is some kind of glitch but it is really weird. It is almost like someone moved a decimal point over an extra spot. They are about right at 10x more.
 
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stl07
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:30 am

^^
Call them up
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777PHX
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:01 am

Iceland in February. Sounds like a blast.
 
michman
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:03 am

It looks similar to when a legacy zeros out all the fare buckets except for full Y which is generally a pre-cursor to a route suspension.
 
Jshank83
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:18 pm

stl07 wrote:
^^
Call them up


I tweeted them and they just gave me the fares fluctuate based on demand line.

777PHX wrote:
Iceland in February. Sounds like a blast.


The wife wants to see the northern lights so we decided we would go up then. Low demand so fares and hotels are cheap.
 
Jshank83
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:23 pm

michman wrote:
It looks similar to when a legacy zeros out all the fare buckets except for full Y which is generally a pre-cursor to a route suspension.


I wondered about this also, all fare types are still available they are just 10x more than normal. Just weird. Maybe I'll see if the airport knows anything.
 
STLflyer
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:45 pm

Other cities can be booked into October 2019, STL and PIT only through March. That's not a good sign, is it?

IIRC, didn't the airport require them to commit to the route for a couple years in exchange for the incentives?
 
Jshank83
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:59 pm

STLflyer wrote:
Other cities can be booked into October 2019, STL and PIT only through March. That's not a good sign, is it?

IIRC, didn't the airport require them to commit to the route for a couple years in exchange for the incentives?


I don't know if it means much, it is kind of all over the place. SFO got cut for winter and it is bookable for May. MCO you can't book past April. Most routes cut for winter you can't book for summer yet. It is mostly just big cities that run daily or mostly daily that are open all the way thru summer so far. I figure those have pretty set schedules year round that make it easy. I am not concerned about it getting cut for summer, Jan-March, we'll see. Maybe with their money issues they are re thinking having a RON in STL during winter.

They aren't really giving them any incentive payouts. It just waived landing fees and are doing marketing, so if the flight did end they would just stop. I think it is for a certain number of flights a year, so they could just load up on summer flights and cut winter to still get them.
 
777PHX
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:11 pm

I thought STL was doing well for them?

I wouldn't read much into it.
 
gnakra80
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:38 am

777PHX wrote:
I thought STL was doing well for them?

I wouldn't read much into it.



latest OAG report has this, can't be good:
WW KEF-STL JAN 0.4>0.1[0] FEB 0.4>0[0] MAR 0.4>0[0]
 
cvgComair
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:19 am

777PHX wrote:
I thought STL was doing well for them?

I wouldn't read much into it.

They had 99% loads out of CVG and they still cut it. I think it is safe to assume STL is getting the axe just like many other WW destinations.

Hopefully they figure things out and can resume some other flights next summer, but things aren't looking good at the moment.
 
maps4ltd
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:51 am

gnakra80 wrote:
777PHX wrote:
I thought STL was doing well for them?

I wouldn't read much into it.



latest OAG report has this, can't be good:
WW KEF-STL JAN 0.4>0.1[0] FEB 0.4>0[0] MAR 0.4>0[0]


This does not bode well...

Now more than ever we should attempt to attract BA or DE or even EI to St. Louis. People have speculated about WW's financial stability for a while now, yet STL seemed to be one of their stronger Midwestern links, what with year-round service and all. This definitely casts doubt on that idea/
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stlgph
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:02 am

Not thinking much of it until it comes in that it's definitely dropped for good.

In February and March, where are people in St. Louis headed?
They're going skiing or to south Florida or the Caribbean for the beaches.
A suspension during this time period, while a bummer, shouldn't be too much of a surprise.
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stl07
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:22 am

stlgph wrote:

In February and March, where are people in St. Louis headed?
They're going skiing or to south Florida or the Caribbean for the beaches.

Which explains why both F9 and WN are adding Carribean flights at this time period
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Jshank83
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:43 am

Even if it is cut for Jan-marchish. It’s still good they kept it through December. I doubt they would do they if they weren’t bringing it back for summer.
 
stlgph
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:48 am

Hell, if I was running WOW Air, I'd call up Apple Vacations and offer them a plane for the 3 months flying loops in and out of the Caribbean.

That'd be....*WOW*.
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TWA302
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:49 pm

This totally SUCKS!!! Last week I just started looking at taking the wife and daughter to TFS for spring break. Free stay at the Ritz with points. Thought about giving WW a go, but I guess that option is now off the table.
 
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TWA302
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:36 pm

https://www.stltoday.com/business/local/wow-that-was-quick-wow-air-to-end-flights-from/article_24c15891-2ebd-5445-8970-837b36362b34.html#tracking-source=home-top-story-1This blows. WW will not survive through 2020
 
Jshank83
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:35 pm

I’m just most ticked that I didn’t get to take a trip to Iceland because of it. Hopefully someone else will come fill the opening. We’ll see
 
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stl07
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:13 am

Jshank83 wrote:
I’m just most ticked that I didn’t get to take a trip to Iceland because of it. Hopefully, someone else will come fill the opening. We’ll see

I heard Primera will fly to any city the airport director wants for 800,000 in incentive money (only when paid upfront).
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stl07
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:15 am

^^
actually though, I find it interesting that TWO KEF-based LLCs are going belly up at the same time, AND their flag carrier is doing horribly
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Jshank83
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:28 am

stl07 wrote:
^^
actually though, I find it interesting that TWO KEF-based LLCs are going belly up at the same time, AND their flag carrier is doing horribly


I am sure at least one will get saved. I would guess Icelandair would be the choice if they had to make one, they have been around longer.

I still can't really believe how sudden this was. The airport had no clue it was coming. Then it happening after they added flights in summer and then extended us (unlike others) thru winter. oh well. You win some you lose some. Hopefully, they can get someone else to come in still for next year but this didn't give them much time.

Biggest letdown might be that now fares to Europe push up from STL. They had come down a fair amount on legacies since WOW started.
 
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stl07
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:34 am

Jshank83 wrote:
stl07 wrote:
^^
actually though, I find it interesting that TWO KEF-based LLCs are going belly up at the same time, AND their flag carrier is doing horribly


I am sure at least one will get saved. I would guess Icelandair would be the choice if they had to make one, they have been around longer.

I still can't really believe how sudden this was. The airport had no clue it was coming. Then it happening after they added flights in summer and then extended us (unlike others) thru winter. oh well. You win some you lose some. Hopefully, they can get someone else to come in still for next year but this didn't give them much time.

Biggest letdown might be that now fares to Europe push up from STL. They had come down a fair amount on legacies since WOW started.

You know what, I'll give them credit for not following in the footsteps of the now defunct KEF carrier by letting us know the flight is canceled ahead of time. But I guess they set the bar so low that anything looks good now. Anyways, the numbers were high enough that, if WW survives, they will return in a few years, STL will attract another carrier, or FI will launch service here since their R and D was done for them
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stl07
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:53 am

So I'm assuming our new customs area is not going to be built now...
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Jshank83
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:03 am

stl07 wrote:
You know what, I'll give them credit for not following in the footsteps of the now defunct KEF carrier by letting us know the flight is canceled ahead of time. But I guess they set the bar so low that anything looks good now. Anyways, the numbers were high enough that, if WW survives, they will return in a few years, STL will attract another carrier, or FI will launch service here since their R and D was done for them



I honestly only think the news came out today because I emailed the airport asking why the fares jumped and that I was wanting to get a flight booked for February this week. They said they would check on it, when they checked they got the news. Otherwise, I don't think it would have come out until later. This is also why I think we were the first to find out they were cutting service. More airport will follow once WOW gets around to letting them know or now they call and ask after they found out we got cut. They were just working with them last week on promotions so I am sure we weren't the only airport that thought they were getting service in the summer until now. I am just happy they haven't paid out anything yet.
 
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stl07
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:09 am

Jshank83 wrote:
stl07 wrote:
You know what, I'll give them credit for not following in the footsteps of the now defunct KEF carrier by letting us know the flight is canceled ahead of time. But I guess they set the bar so low that anything looks good now. Anyways, the numbers were high enough that, if WW survives, they will return in a few years, STL will attract another carrier, or FI will launch service here since their R and D was done for them



I honestly only think the news came out today because I emailed the airport asking why the fares jumped and that I was wanting to get a flight booked for February this week. They said they would check on it, when they checked they got the news. Otherwise, I don't think it would have come out until later. This is also why I think we were the first to find out they were cutting service. More airport will follow once WOW gets around to letting them know or now they call and ask after they found out we got cut. They were just working with them last week on promotions so I am sure we weren't the only airport that thought they were getting service in the summer until now. I am just happy they haven't paid out anything yet.

one week ago! WW, at least as we know it, is done...
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stlgph
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:13 am

Jshank83 wrote:
I’m just most ticked that I didn’t get to take a trip to Iceland because of it. Hopefully someone else will come fill the opening. We’ll see


Just look for one of their sales and then cart yourself up to ORD and fly Ice Air. Entirely worth it.
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Trololzilla
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:42 am

stl07 wrote:
So I'm assuming our new customs area is not going to be built now...

I don't think WOW has much to do with that. I'm fairly sure that renovation will happen regardless of WOW's presence, as the airport was likely doing it in anticipation of future service.
 
chalupas54
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:09 pm

I think now that WW is departing for whatever reason, we need to accept that this will likely do incredible damage to the future of STL TATL.

I hate to be a pessimist as I am very bullish on St Louis, but it will be extremely difficult to convince a carrier to enter STL's market if WW claims it was a disappointment, even if it wasn't.

I don't think we will see a carrier look at STL for a few years after this. This just stings horribly.
 
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TWA302
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:24 pm

stlgph wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
I’m just most ticked that I didn’t get to take a trip to Iceland because of it. Hopefully someone else will come fill the opening. We’ll see


Just look for one of their sales and then cart yourself up to ORD and fly Ice Air. Entirely worth it.


FI is at MCI too. Easier drive and less hassle that ORD!
 
stlgph
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:27 pm

Don't think they are there in February. Aren't they more a true summer seasonal?
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Jshank83
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:34 pm

TWA302 wrote:
stlgph wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
I’m just most ticked that I didn’t get to take a trip to Iceland because of it. Hopefully someone else will come fill the opening. We’ll see


Just look for one of their sales and then cart yourself up to ORD and fly Ice Air. Entirely worth it.


FI is at MCI too. Easier drive and less hassle that ORD!


I would rather just take a connection on someone else from here. Driving defeats the purpose for me and negates the most if not all of the savings.
 
Jshank83
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:39 pm

I am not going to get too upset about this if they were expecting 90% loads like they are stating. I wouldn't have expected us to hit 90% on an airline not many have heard in the first year. First month or two maybe but after the initial people excited about it calms down I feel like asking for 90% is a stretch, especially after adding extra flights that will just spread it more thin.
 
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TWA302
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:10 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
I am not going to get too upset about this if they were expecting 90% loads like they are stating. I wouldn't have expected us to hit 90% on an airline not many have heard in the first year. First month or two maybe but after the initial people excited about it calms down I feel like asking for 90% is a stretch, especially after adding extra flights that will just spread it more thin.


That is their scapegoat answer to this mess they are in. Downward spiral from here.
 
stlgph
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:14 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
TWA302 wrote:
stlgph wrote:

Just look for one of their sales and then cart yourself up to ORD and fly Ice Air. Entirely worth it.


FI is at MCI too. Easier drive and less hassle that ORD!


I would rather just take a connection on someone else from here. Driving defeats the purpose for me and negates the most if not all of the savings.


I know, but you can sometimes get to Iceland from places such as Chicago, New York, Boston, etc. for less than $300.
Sometimes, just hard to say hell with it and do it.
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arcticcruiser
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:20 pm

stl07 wrote:
^^
actually though, I find it interesting that TWO KEF-based LLCs are going belly up at the same time, AND their flag carrier is doing horribly


Primera was never really KEF based.
 
Jshank83
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:22 am

Decent watch/read.

KMOV talked to a airline consultant about WOW/STL.

https://www.kmov.com/news/wow-air-pulli ... a06ef.html
 
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stl07
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:52 am

arcticcruiser wrote:
stl07 wrote:
^^
actually though, I find it interesting that TWO KEF-based LLCs are going belly up at the same time, AND their flag carrier is doing horribly


Primera was never really KEF based.

Was it just in name to avoid some kind of tax?
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stl07
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:56 am

Jshank83 wrote:
Decent watch/read.

KMOV talked to a airline consultant about WOW/STL.

https://www.kmov.com/news/wow-air-pulli ... a06ef.html

"since we broke the news"
Correction: since A.net broke the news
news 4 didn't know about this until another whole day after the OAG thread and two days since Jshank spoke up here because it wasn't on his twitter until yesterday (when they saw it). Sorry that just bothered me.
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Trololzilla
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:08 am

chalupas54 wrote:
I think now that WW is departing for whatever reason, we need to accept that this will likely do incredible damage to the future of STL TATL.

I hate to be a pessimist as I am very bullish on St Louis, but it will be extremely difficult to convince a carrier to enter STL's market if WW claims it was a disappointment, even if it wasn't.

I don't think we will see a carrier look at STL for a few years after this. This just stings horribly.

I really don't think it will. I think most airlines are smart enough to realize that this is just a struggling air carrier pulling out of a long, thin market with one of their few precious planes in an attempt to salvage their entire operation, so I don't think WOW's decision to leave will affect future air service much, if at all. They're not going to just listen to WOW's word on STL being a 'disappointment' when they all have access to the actual data and can formulate their own conclusions from them.

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