Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Jshank83
Topic Author
Posts: 3564
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:17 pm

The only thing that would give STL a chance to get DL on LAX/SEA is that they can run it on a E175. That said I don't know if either is all that likely.
 
maps4ltd
Posts: 550
Joined: Tue May 08, 2018 4:48 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:41 pm

stlgph wrote:
For all of you still living in STL, when you go to book trans Atlantic international, what pops up as the most common connection for Delta? Detroit or Atlanta?


I was looking for STL-LHR this winter, and on Delta all the options routed me through ATL, DTW, or MSP, with DTW having the best connection times but ATL having the best prices. MSP is pretty inconvenient for connecting STL pax in general as they are at a geographical disadvantage. There were two connections listed through MSP, but both were very expensive and had super short connection times.

As a side note, when booking STL-Europe on AA, I mostly get connections through CLT or PHL, with some places (like CDG, LHR, or BCN) going through ORD. I prefer ORD when I can because I can take a 787 over an A330.

On United, the TATL flights usually go through ORD or EWR, with some IAD.
Delta Gold Medallion
 
Jshank83
Topic Author
Posts: 3564
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:45 pm

maps4ltd wrote:
stlgph wrote:
As a side note, when booking STL-Europe on AA, I mostly get connections through CLT or PHL, with some places (like CDG, LHR, or BCN) going through ORD. I prefer ORD when I can because I can take a 787 over an A330.



Curious why you like the 787 over the A330. Are you usually traveling alone or with someone? I haven't been on a 787 yet but I like the 330 because of the 2 seats and not dealing with a middle person. Really great when traveling with someone but also good when I am not since there isn't someone fighting for middle space. But not being on a 787 yet, I am curious on your thoughts.
 
User avatar
TWA302
Posts: 754
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 12:17 am

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:51 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
maps4ltd wrote:
stlgph wrote:
As a side note, when booking STL-Europe on AA, I mostly get connections through CLT or PHL, with some places (like CDG, LHR, or BCN) going through ORD. I prefer ORD when I can because I can take a 787 over an A330.



Curious why you like the 787 over the A330. Are you usually traveling alone or with someone? I haven't been on a 787 yet but I like the 330 because of the 2 seats and not dealing with a middle person. Really great when traveling with someone but also good when I am not since there isn't someone fighting for middle space. But not being on a 787 yet, I am curious on your thoughts.


I prefer the A330 over the 787 because those seats on the 787 are so cramped and less legroom. A330 is more spacious in coach for my family.
 
jplatts
Posts: 3692
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:52 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
The only thing that would give STL a chance to get DL on LAX/SEA is that they can run it on a E175. That said I don't know if either is all that likely.


STL-SEA is barely within the range of E175 regional jets, but UA operates regional jets on the STL-SFO nonstop route, which is slightly longer than the STL-SEA nonstop route. DL and AS also used to operate regional jets on the SEA-MKE nonstop route, which is almost as long as the SEA-STL nonstop route, but both DL and AS have since upgauged their SEA-MKE nonstops to mainline aircraft.

DL would also be able to more easily connect passengers to destinations in Alaska, Washington State, Asia, and Western Canada from SEA if DL adds STL-SEA nonstop service.

While all of the current regional jet nonstop routes out of LAX are to destinations that are closer to LAX than STL is, UA will be operating the MSN-LAX nonstop route (which is longer than the STL-LAX nonstop route) on E175 regional jets starting on March 31, 2019.

STL-LAX is within the range of E175 regional jets, and DL would also be able to offer connections to Hawaii and Australia from STL through LAX if DL adds STL-LAX nonstop service.
 
Jshank83
Topic Author
Posts: 3564
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:55 pm

TWA302 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
maps4ltd wrote:


Curious why you like the 787 over the A330. Are you usually traveling alone or with someone? I haven't been on a 787 yet but I like the 330 because of the 2 seats and not dealing with a middle person. Really great when traveling with someone but also good when I am not since there isn't someone fighting for middle space. But not being on a 787 yet, I am curious on your thoughts.


I prefer the A330 over the 787 because those seats on the 787 are so cramped and less legroom. A330 is more spacious in coach for my family.


I will say I did not consider if he was flying first/business. That would make a difference.
 
Jshank83
Topic Author
Posts: 3564
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:57 pm

jplatts wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
The only thing that would give STL a chance to get DL on LAX/SEA is that they can run it on a E175. That said I don't know if either is all that likely.


STL-SEA is barely within the range of E175 regional jets, but UA operates regional jets on the STL-SFO nonstop route, which is slightly longer than the STL-SEA nonstop route. DL and AS also used to operate regional jets on the SEA-MKE nonstop route, which is almost as long as the SEA-STL nonstop route, but both DL and AS have since upgauged their SEA-MKE nonstops to mainline aircraft.

DL would also be able to more easily connect passengers to destinations in Alaska, Washington State, Asia, and Western Canada from SEA if DL adds STL-SEA nonstop service.

While all of the current regional jet nonstop routes out of LAX are to destinations that are closer to LAX than STL is, UA will be operating the MSN-LAX nonstop route (which is longer than the STL-LAX nonstop route) on E175 regional jets starting on March 31, 2019.

STL-LAX is within the range of E175 regional jets, and DL would also be able to offer connections to Hawaii and Australia from STL through LAX if DL adds STL-LAX nonstop service.


My post said they could run it on an E175. I am not sure why you felt the need to repeat what I said but make it about 10 times longer.
 
stlgph
Posts: 11223
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:17 pm

So that brings me to the other side of the discussion - if you're in STL and you're wanting to head down under, it appears your best bet is to fly through IAH or DFW, at least timewise.

Asia - there's MSP or trekking up to ORD or over slightly to DTW.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
Jshank83
Topic Author
Posts: 3564
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:26 pm

stlgph wrote:
So that brings me to the other side of the discussion - if you're in STL and you're wanting to head down under, it appears your best bet is to fly through IAH or DFW, at least timewise.


I would probably try for LAX or SFO. SFO is 2.5 hours shorter on the long haul than IAH, LAX is 2 shorter than DFW, which I would appreciate on a flight that long.
Last edited by Jshank83 on Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
OzarkD9S
Posts: 5716
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2001 2:31 am

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:27 pm

stlgph wrote:

So that brings me to the other side of the discussion - if you're in STL and you're wanting to head down under, it appears your best bet is to fly through IAH or DFW, at least timewise.

Asia - there's MSP or trekking up to ORD or over slightly to DTW.


STL-DFW-Asia isn't that far out the way either, AS could get you there via code-share through SEA on a few routes.
Next up: STL DEN PSP DEN STL
 
stlgph
Posts: 11223
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:41 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
stlgph wrote:
So that brings me to the other side of the discussion - if you're in STL and you're wanting to head down under, it appears your best bet is to fly through IAH or DFW, at least timewise.


I would probably try for LAX or SFO. SFO is 2.5 hours shorter on the long haul than IAH, LAX is 2 shorter than DFW, which I would appreciate on a flight that long.


Well I'm just thinking if you take AA into LAX, and let's say you're going to Australia. You get in at 6:45 or so at night and then sit there for 3 1/2 hours until you leave. Suck city.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
maps4ltd
Posts: 550
Joined: Tue May 08, 2018 4:48 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:50 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
maps4ltd wrote:
stlgph wrote:
As a side note, when booking STL-Europe on AA, I mostly get connections through CLT or PHL, with some places (like CDG, LHR, or BCN) going through ORD. I prefer ORD when I can because I can take a 787 over an A330.



Curious why you like the 787 over the A330. Are you usually traveling alone or with someone? I haven't been on a 787 yet but I like the 330 because of the 2 seats and not dealing with a middle person. Really great when traveling with someone but also good when I am not since there isn't someone fighting for middle space. But not being on a 787 yet, I am curious on your thoughts.


I am partial to IFE, and the 787 IFE is more updated than that on the A330. In addition, I like me some upgrades, and the 787 (the -9 especially) has better upgrade chances than the A330-200 (though the -300 suits my needs sometimes).
Delta Gold Medallion
 
maps4ltd
Posts: 550
Joined: Tue May 08, 2018 4:48 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:52 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
The only thing that would give STL a chance to get DL on LAX/SEA is that they can run it on a E175. That said I don't know if either is all that likely.


I see SEA as more likely than LAX.
Delta Gold Medallion
 
jrkstl
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 5:11 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:56 pm

stlgph wrote:
So that brings me to the other side of the discussion - if you're in STL and you're wanting to head down under, it appears your best bet is to fly through IAH or DFW, at least timewise.

Asia - there's MSP or trekking up to ORD or over slightly to DTW.


Would still prefer DTW with DL.

Going to China in 2020, and DL has nonstop out of DTW to Beijing, then from Shanghai. The 45 minute or so flight is a breeze from STL-DTW and much preferable to 3.5 ish to the west coast options, then longhaul.
 
STLflyer
Posts: 257
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:08 am

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:10 pm

stlgph wrote:
So that brings me to the other side of the discussion - if you're in STL and you're wanting to head down under, it appears your best bet is to fly through IAH or DFW, at least timewise.

Asia - there's MSP or trekking up to ORD or over slightly to DTW.


I went to Tokyo last year on UA and connected in IAH on the way there and DEN on the way back. Next year I'm doing STL-IAH-TPE and returning from HKG via DFW. I don't think Texas is too far out of the way for Asia connections, but I'm in business class so I don't really care ;)

I did STL-DFW-SYD and back in economy which was rough, but a lot better than dealing with the hell that is LAX. Plus on long haul flights I prefer to minimize my time on the short hop, especially if it's an RJ.
 
maps4ltd
Posts: 550
Joined: Tue May 08, 2018 4:48 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:23 pm

jrkstl wrote:
stlgph wrote:
So that brings me to the other side of the discussion - if you're in STL and you're wanting to head down under, it appears your best bet is to fly through IAH or DFW, at least timewise.

Asia - there's MSP or trekking up to ORD or over slightly to DTW.


Would still prefer DTW with DL.

Going to China in 2020, and DL has nonstop out of DTW to Beijing, then from Shanghai. The 45 minute or so flight is a breeze from STL-DTW and much preferable to 3.5 ish to the west coast options, then longhaul.


DTW is a great alternative to ORD. The McNamara terminal is fabulous. For a STL-based Delta flyer looking to go TATL (or even to some smaller northeastern cities), DTW is a great hub.

For Australia connections, the Texas cities do work best. Personally, if going to SYD, I would take one of AA's frequent nonstops to DFW and then get on the Qantas A380 to Sydney. United doesn't have nearly as many STL-IAH daily flights, and the Concourse B to Concourse D (or E?) walk is a trek compared to the DFW Skylink.
Delta Gold Medallion
 
kipfilet
Posts: 97
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:44 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:36 am

I'm a United flyer based out of STL and do TATL about once a month. I am slightly indifferent between ORD and IAD outbound; EWR is significantly worse than either of these two but often offers more convenient flights. Inbound, IAD is the best due to separate customs/immigration for connecting flights (I'm not a citizen/permanent resident and my country does not qualify for global entry). EWR is by far the worst for inbound flights as the STL UA Express flights leave out of the awful Terminal A.
 
Jshank83
Topic Author
Posts: 3564
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:30 am

kipfilet wrote:
I'm a United flyer based out of STL and do TATL about once a month. I am slightly indifferent between ORD and IAD outbound; EWR is significantly worse than either of these two but often offers more convenient flights. Inbound, IAD is the best due to separate customs/immigration for connecting flights (I'm not a citizen/permanent resident and my country does not qualify for global entry). EWR is by far the worst for inbound flights as the STL UA Express flights leave out of the awful Terminal A.


My big gripe with UA thru EWR/IAD is most likely you are on a 145/200. I see they sometimes but rarely have a 175 on the schedule to EWR. Nothing like getting off a widebody and onto a 145 for the 2nd leg.
 
User avatar
symphonicpoet
Posts: 60
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:57 am

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:09 am

stlgph wrote:
So that brings me to the other side of the discussion - if you're in STL and you're wanting to head down under, it appears your best bet is to fly through IAH or DFW, at least timewise.

Asia - there's MSP or trekking up to ORD or over slightly to DTW.


Actually, for DL there's even connections through ATL to Asia. Flew KAL back from Seoul to ATL and DL from there to STL. Seemed pretty stupid as we literally flew over St. Louis, but . . . it did work. You could, in theory, even make DL-MDW-ORD/KAL-ICN work, but I just did AA for the short hop and said to heck with it. As to other airlines I've gotten connections through ORD and SFO and my wife through LAX. I've seen them through EWR and DFW and . . . resisted. For trips to Asia I honestly prefer to connect through ORD if given a choice. But SFO wasn't terrible. ATL was a bit awkward, but less terrible than it's sometimes made out to be. Clearing customs and quarantine wasn't too bad. Better than ORD, really. (The lines there get awful at times. And they're rude as snot to boot. Fairly consistently. If it wasn't so dang convenient . . . Really, I'm not at all sure why I like that airport. It kind of sucks when you think about it too long. A gajillion terminals that don't connect. Terrible security lines. Lousy ass customs hall. Generally rude and sometimes seemingly racist staff. Not that you'd notice if you're white, but they sure give my wife the once over.) Connections through ATL are sounding a lot better as I write this. DL's not too bad. Or maybe DFW isn't so bad after all. SFO was fine, but . . . UA. I actually liked the ERJ-175. Fairly comfy little plane. I'd rather ride an ERJ than a 737 or A320 any day of the week. The cramped 3+3 layouts actually kind of suck. But . . . UA.
TW AA MU JL KE DL UA LOF GJS SKW WN VN
STL JFK FRA GVA CDG IAD ORD PVG SGN NRT ICN ATL SFO HKG MDW LGA BNA DTW LHR
L1011 MD82 83 88 B737 738 741 744 762 763 772 773 777 A320 330 350 E175 C700
 
kipfilet
Posts: 97
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:44 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:31 am

Jshank83 wrote:
kipfilet wrote:
I'm a United flyer based out of STL and do TATL about once a month. I am slightly indifferent between ORD and IAD outbound; EWR is significantly worse than either of these two but often offers more convenient flights. Inbound, IAD is the best due to separate customs/immigration for connecting flights (I'm not a citizen/permanent resident and my country does not qualify for global entry). EWR is by far the worst for inbound flights as the STL UA Express flights leave out of the awful Terminal A.


My big gripe with UA thru EWR/IAD is most likely you are on a 145/200. I see they sometimes but rarely have a 175 on the schedule to EWR. Nothing like getting off a widebody and onto a 145 for the 2nd leg.

True. Really wish we had more mainline service to the east coast hubs...
 
Jshank83
Topic Author
Posts: 3564
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:35 pm

kipfilet wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
kipfilet wrote:
I'm a United flyer based out of STL and do TATL about once a month. I am slightly indifferent between ORD and IAD outbound; EWR is significantly worse than either of these two but often offers more convenient flights. Inbound, IAD is the best due to separate customs/immigration for connecting flights (I'm not a citizen/permanent resident and my country does not qualify for global entry). EWR is by far the worst for inbound flights as the STL UA Express flights leave out of the awful Terminal A.


My big gripe with UA thru EWR/IAD is most likely you are on a 145/200. I see they sometimes but rarely have a 175 on the schedule to EWR. Nothing like getting off a widebody and onto a 145 for the 2nd leg.

True. Really wish we had more mainline service to the east coast hubs...


I like the above poster actually really like the E175. I don’t mine 900s either. I just hate 145/200 cause there isn’t any WiFi/entertainment.
 
kipfilet
Posts: 97
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:44 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:56 pm

^True! In my mind, the 145 and no business class *is* regional. I really like the E175 as well. I've only taken it to IAH, SFO, and to ORD a couple times (I feel that I have taken a lot of 145s to ORD as well - possible?)
 
Jshank83
Topic Author
Posts: 3564
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:08 pm

kipfilet wrote:
^True! In my mind, the 145 and no business class *is* regional. I really like the E175 as well. I've only taken it to IAH, SFO, and to ORD a couple times (I feel that I have taken a lot of 145s to ORD as well - possible?)


I've flown the 175 on all 3 carriers now. UA (SFO-STL) and DL (SFO-SLC-STL and STL-SLC) both are better than AA (STL-DCA with a diversion to RIC) on it. AA has less leg room but it still wasn't too bad. But I just am a fan of the 2x2 layout in general over 3x3. Plus the seats are wider than a 737 which is a nice bonus.

My main beef with the 145 besides no entertainment is I can't stand up straight in it. Just too small of a tube. Running them to ORD isn't a big deal but once your flight is pushing 2 hours or more it is too long. Like UA adding another flight to EWR but they ALL are on a 145. Why not run one less flight and have 2 on a 175/900. Basically the same amount of seats and 5 instead of 6 flights a day isn't that big a deal. It really hurts UA in STL that they run so many of them here, not that they seem to care. I would love to fly them more but those planes keep me off them. At least in March they seem to be running a 170 for one flight a day. Hopefully in summer they add more of those or some mainline.
 
maps4ltd
Posts: 550
Joined: Tue May 08, 2018 4:48 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:26 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
kipfilet wrote:
^True! In my mind, the 145 and no business class *is* regional. I really like the E175 as well. I've only taken it to IAH, SFO, and to ORD a couple times (I feel that I have taken a lot of 145s to ORD as well - possible?)


I've flown the 175 on all 3 carriers now. UA (SFO-STL) and DL (SFO-SLC-STL and STL-SLC) both are better than AA (STL-DCA with a diversion to RIC) on it. AA has less leg room but it still wasn't too bad. But I just am a fan of the 2x2 layout in general over 3x3. Plus the seats are wider than a 737 which is a nice bonus.

My main beef with the 145 besides no entertainment is I can't stand up straight in it. Just too small of a tube. Running them to ORD isn't a big deal but once your flight is pushing 2 hours or more it is too long. Like UA adding another flight to EWR but they ALL are on a 145. Why not run one less flight and have 2 on a 175/900. Basically the same amount of seats and 5 instead of 6 flights a day isn't that big a deal. It really hurts UA in STL that they run so many of them here, not that they seem to care. I would love to fly them more but those planes keep me off them. At least in March they seem to be running a 170 for one flight a day. Hopefully in summer they add more of those or some mainline.


I believe there has been spotty A319 service to ORD on UA over the past few months, as well as 737-700 and A320 to IAH (which has also gone away). I believe UA still runs a few 175s down to IAH, but they're mostly on 145s. Denver and ORD usually get a mix of jets (CR7 and E145, with the occasional CR2), but EWR has been stubbornly all-145 for a while now. At least we now have two daily 175s to SFO; at this same time last year, we had one daily. If the 175s had power in Y, I'd take them over a 737 any day.
Delta Gold Medallion
 
Jshank83
Topic Author
Posts: 3564
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:33 pm

maps4ltd wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
kipfilet wrote:
^True! In my mind, the 145 and no business class *is* regional. I really like the E175 as well. I've only taken it to IAH, SFO, and to ORD a couple times (I feel that I have taken a lot of 145s to ORD as well - possible?)


I've flown the 175 on all 3 carriers now. UA (SFO-STL) and DL (SFO-SLC-STL and STL-SLC) both are better than AA (STL-DCA with a diversion to RIC) on it. AA has less leg room but it still wasn't too bad. But I just am a fan of the 2x2 layout in general over 3x3. Plus the seats are wider than a 737 which is a nice bonus.

My main beef with the 145 besides no entertainment is I can't stand up straight in it. Just too small of a tube. Running them to ORD isn't a big deal but once your flight is pushing 2 hours or more it is too long. Like UA adding another flight to EWR but they ALL are on a 145. Why not run one less flight and have 2 on a 175/900. Basically the same amount of seats and 5 instead of 6 flights a day isn't that big a deal. It really hurts UA in STL that they run so many of them here, not that they seem to care. I would love to fly them more but those planes keep me off them. At least in March they seem to be running a 170 for one flight a day. Hopefully in summer they add more of those or some mainline.


I believe there has been spotty A319 service to ORD on UA over the past few months, as well as 737-700 and A320 to IAH (which has also gone away). I believe UA still runs a few 175s down to IAH, but they're mostly on 145s. Denver and ORD usually get a mix of jets (CR7 and E145, with the occasional CR2), but EWR has been stubbornly all-145 for a while now. At least we now have two daily 175s to SFO; at this same time last year, we had one daily. If the 175s had power in Y, I'd take them over a 737 any day.


SFO goes back to 1 daily after Christmas until March. IAH will have an A320 in January and part of Feb. Which surprises me. Last winter there were none.
 
Jshank83
Topic Author
Posts: 3564
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:25 pm

Updated my LF spreadsheet.

Intl thru June
Domestic thru September.


Nothing really to note. Only weird think is STL-OAK was 51% but OAK-STL was 92%. That didn't make a ton of sense to me. They usually are fairly close.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing
 
jplatts
Posts: 3692
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:18 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
Updated my LF spreadsheet.

Intl thru June
Domestic thru September.

Nothing really to note. Only weird think is STL-OAK was 51% but OAK-STL was 92%. That didn't make a ton of sense to me. They usually are fairly close.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing


I can explain the load factor disparity on OAK-STL since some of the passengers on the WN OAK-STL nonstops are either connecting at STL to destinations East of the Mississippi or continuing onto the next stop after STL on the WN OAK-STL nonstops.

I am surprised that DL has much lower load factors on STL-CVG when WN has significantly better load factors on STL-CMH, STL-DSM, STL-MKE, STL-BNA, and STL-OMA. WN also operates mainline aircraft with at least 143 seats on its STL-CMH, STL-DSM, STL-MKE, STL-BNA, and STL-OMA nonstop routes, whereas DL operates 50-seat and 69-seat regional jets on the STL-CVG nonstop route.

WN can likely significantly stimulate additional demand for STL-CVG nonstop service if it adds STL-CVG nonstop service. WN would also be able to offer connections to destinations in California, Nebraska, Iowa, Kansas, Missouri, Oklahoma, Arkansas, and Texas from CVG through STL if WN adds STL-CVG nonstop service.
 
Jshank83
Topic Author
Posts: 3564
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:24 pm

jplatts wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Updated my LF spreadsheet.

Intl thru June
Domestic thru September.

Nothing really to note. Only weird think is STL-OAK was 51% but OAK-STL was 92%. That didn't make a ton of sense to me. They usually are fairly close.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing


I can explain the load factor disparity on OAK-STL since some of the passengers on the WN OAK-STL nonstops are either connecting at STL to destinations East of the Mississippi or continuing onto the next stop after STL on the WN OAK-STL nonstops.

I am surprised that DL has much lower load factors on STL-CVG when WN has significantly better load factors on STL-CMH, STL-DSM, STL-MKE, STL-BNA, and STL-OMA. WN also operates mainline aircraft with at least 143 seats on its STL-CMH, STL-DSM, STL-MKE, STL-BNA, and STL-OMA nonstop routes, whereas DL operates 50-seat and 69-seat regional jets on the STL-CVG nonstop route.


That doesn't explain the huge difference to me when it usually is high 80s. a 35-40 point drop is not normal and can't be explained just by some connecting passengers. That would almost mean none connected the entire month. The schedule didn't change from previous months. I can't remember if there was a fire going on at that time, maybe that kept some people away.


There isn't much O&D to CVG and DL doesn't push many connections from STL thru CVG. It rarely shows up as an options and if it does the layovers are long. So it doesn't surprise me all that much. DSM only has a couple destinations on WN so they all have to be pushed thru somewhere. Most of those passengers are connecting.
 
jplatts
Posts: 3692
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:22 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
There isn't much O&D to CVG and DL doesn't push many connections from STL thru CVG. It rarely shows up as an options and if it does the layovers are long. So it doesn't surprise me all that much. DSM only has a couple destinations on WN so they all have to be pushed thru somewhere. Most of those passengers are connecting.


There are also significantly more O&D passengers traveling to STL from CMH, MCI, BNA, and OMA on WN per day than O&D passengers traveling to STL from CVG on DL per day.

While CVG is almost as far from STL as OMA is and while CVG is located in a much bigger metro area and catchment area than OMA is, both the O&D demand and overall demand for WN STL-OMA nonstop service is significantly greater than that of DL STL-CVG nonstop service.

While both MCI and BNA are located in metro areas that are similar in size to CVG and while both MCI and BNA are closer to STL than CVG is, the O&D demand for STL-MCI and STL-BNA is significantly greater than the O&D demand for MCI-CVG. However, WN has a significantly bigger presence at MCI and BNA than it does at CVG, and the demand for domestic air travel is also much greater at MCI and BNA than at CVG.
 
Jshank83
Topic Author
Posts: 3564
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:06 pm

jplatts wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
There isn't much O&D to CVG and DL doesn't push many connections from STL thru CVG. It rarely shows up as an options and if it does the layovers are long. So it doesn't surprise me all that much. DSM only has a couple destinations on WN so they all have to be pushed thru somewhere. Most of those passengers are connecting.


There are also significantly more O&D passengers traveling to STL from CMH, MCI, BNA, and OMA on WN per day than O&D passengers traveling to STL from CVG on DL per day.

While CVG is almost as far from STL as OMA is and while CVG is located in a much bigger metro area and catchment area than OMA is, both the O&D demand and overall demand for WN STL-OMA nonstop service is significantly greater than that of DL STL-CVG nonstop service.

While both MCI and BNA are located in metro areas that are similar in size to CVG and while both MCI and BNA are closer to STL than CVG is, the O&D demand for STL-MCI and STL-BNA is significantly greater than the O&D demand for MCI-CVG. However, WN has a significantly bigger presence at MCI and BNA than it does at CVG, and the demand for domestic air travel is also much greater at MCI and BNA than at CVG.


So I think you answered your original question. Good job.
 
Jshank83
Topic Author
Posts: 3564
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:22 pm

November numbers are out.

Up 5.1% on the month
Up 6% on the year

https://www.flystl.com/uploads/document ... PubRel.pdf

If it stays at 6% for the year the final number would be 16.615 mil. Highest since 2003, not bad.
 
User avatar
TWA302
Posts: 754
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 12:17 am

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:15 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
November numbers are out.

Up 5.1% on the month
Up 6% on the year

https://www.flystl.com/uploads/document ... PubRel.pdf

If it stays at 6% for the year the final number would be 16.615 mil. Highest since 2003, not bad.


Pretty impressive sustained growth.
 
Jshank83
Topic Author
Posts: 3564
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:21 pm

TWA302 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
November numbers are out.

Up 5.1% on the month
Up 6% on the year

https://www.flystl.com/uploads/document ... PubRel.pdf

If it stays at 6% for the year the final number would be 16.615 mil. Highest since 2003, not bad.


Pretty impressive sustained growth.


Article mentioned that just O&D is projected to be up 4% over Christmas. So that is good as well.
 
maps4ltd
Posts: 550
Joined: Tue May 08, 2018 4:48 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:18 pm

Happy Christmas everyone! Hope 2019 can see more growth for the airport and the region as a whole.

I would like to ask Santa for: TATL service on an established carrier, mainline upgauges on legacies, a Delta Skyclub, more Southwest growth, the success of Sun Country, and service from JetBlue and/or Spirit!
Delta Gold Medallion
 
Jshank83
Topic Author
Posts: 3564
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Thu Dec 27, 2018 4:25 am

EAS service to TBN (Fort Leonard Wood) is changing from Cape Air to Contour and going to be on a E135 starting Feb 12. Quite a change.

Press Conference on January 8th.

https://www.sustainableozarks.org/news/ ... al-airport
 
maps4ltd
Posts: 550
Joined: Tue May 08, 2018 4:48 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:21 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
EAS service to TBN (Fort Leonard Wood) is changing from Cape Air to Contour and going to be on a E135 starting Feb 12. Quite a change.

Press Conference on January 8th.

https://www.sustainableozarks.org/news/ ... al-airport


Contour seems like a pretty nice airline--the E135s are a HUGE improvement over the Cape Air C408s with 27-inch pitch.
Delta Gold Medallion
 
Jshank83
Topic Author
Posts: 3564
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:33 pm

maps4ltd wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
EAS service to TBN (Fort Leonard Wood) is changing from Cape Air to Contour and going to be on a E135 starting Feb 12. Quite a change.

Press Conference on January 8th.

https://www.sustainableozarks.org/news/ ... al-airport


Contour seems like a pretty nice airline--the E135s are a HUGE improvement over the Cape Air C408s with 27-inch pitch.


I am just curious on how many a day they will run and how they plan to get them filled (or halfway filled) I think they have 30 seats. Also Cape had some codeshare agreements with AA which was nice, I don't think Contour has any. But yea, it will be nice to have a new airline and another jet flying around.
 
maps4ltd
Posts: 550
Joined: Tue May 08, 2018 4:48 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:05 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
maps4ltd wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
EAS service to TBN (Fort Leonard Wood) is changing from Cape Air to Contour and going to be on a E135 starting Feb 12. Quite a change.

Press Conference on January 8th.

https://www.sustainableozarks.org/news/ ... al-airport


Contour seems like a pretty nice airline--the E135s are a HUGE improvement over the Cape Air C408s with 27-inch pitch.


I am just curious on how many a day they will run and how they plan to get them filled (or halfway filled) I think they have 30 seats. Also Cape had some codeshare agreements with AA which was nice, I don't think Contour has any. But yea, it will be nice to have a new airline and another jet flying around.


The AA codeshare is pretty convenient, and I'm sure there are some Army people who connect Cape->American in STL, but jet service on Contour is a pretty good deal. Contour should consider codesharing; like Cape, it has operations spread across different parts of the country that aren't really connected.
Delta Gold Medallion
 
atrude777
Posts: 4412
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:57 pm

https://www.capeair.com/theme/single-news.html?id=1454

Little hard to link the news but they confirmed MWA-Marion, Illinois a Cape Air city to STL reached 10,000 passengers for I believe now the third time in a row.

I am loving the Cape Air service, with 6 daily flights to STL. I live in Chicago, and am from Carbondale. So I either can jump on United and fly stand by down to CGI-Cape Girardeau, Missouri, or Paducah, Kentucky, if desperate I will jump down to STL, then hop on Cape Air.

It blows my mind MWA still cannot sustain even a daily jet service to Chicago on United or American. As UA is used for CGI and PAH it's making their service to MWA very unlikely.

I could see AA trying it with SkyWest, especially with the amount of frequent travelers. Between Carbondale, and Marion I would imagine through EAS they could sustain a flight to Chicago. Problem would be the region has been so used to STL service from Ozark, to TWA, American, Great Lakes, and Cape Air...

Until then I tend to non rev down on United into CGI when I go home to visit my family and friends.

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
User avatar
TVNWZ
Posts: 2269
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:28 am

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:20 pm

Used to fly OZ MWA to STL and then onward on FH-227Bs back around 1980. Those planes were rattle traps. Always felt like you were barely getting airborne as they groaned down the runway.
 
pmanni1
Posts: 249
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:17 am

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:49 pm

I see this June/July/August DL will be 3x daily to ATL on A321's. Is this a first? I've seen DL 757's frequently but never A321's.
 
Jshank83
Topic Author
Posts: 3564
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:35 pm

pmanni1 wrote:
I see this June/July/August DL will be 3x daily to ATL on A321's. Is this a first? I've seen DL 757's frequently but never A321's.


I haven't noticed them on 321s before but it probably also isn't set yet. Could change back to 757 or 737.
 
User avatar
symphonicpoet
Posts: 60
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:57 am

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:02 am

I've seen DL's STL-ATL service on 739s a good few times now. If they're working to phase out the 752s A321s would be a logical replacement. Even if you're a Boeing fan, on paper the 321s come a little closer to matching the capabilities of the 752s. I gather they're not as leggy, but for STL to ATL I expect it's more about carrying capacity.
TW AA MU JL KE DL UA LOF GJS SKW WN VN
STL JFK FRA GVA CDG IAD ORD PVG SGN NRT ICN ATL SFO HKG MDW LGA BNA DTW LHR
L1011 MD82 83 88 B737 738 741 744 762 763 772 773 777 A320 330 350 E175 C700
 
User avatar
stl07
Posts: 2529
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:33 pm

I'd expect some more routes on Contour, I doubt they are going to have an entire plane here for 2-4 EAS flights to a place half an hour away. In other cities with eas flights, they have added regular service too, like CLT-TPA

Maybe (I'm being hopefull here) Memphis, BNA, IND
They are based in tenn :)
Instead of typing in "mods", consider using the report function.
Love how every "travel blogger" says they will never fly AA/Ethihad again and then says it again and again on subsequent flights.
 
User avatar
OzarkD9S
Posts: 5716
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2001 2:31 am

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:50 pm

TVNWZ wrote:

Used to fly OZ MWA to STL and then onward on FH-227Bs back around 1980. Those planes were rattle traps. Always felt like you were barely getting airborne as they groaned down the runway.


I flew those a few times myself. Yes, they were shaky but they got the job done. Flew PIA-SPI-STL once and if we got over 10,000 feet I would be surprised. The overhead wings and big windows certainly made the view interesting, even if it was over Illinois!
Next up: STL DEN PSP DEN STL
 
User avatar
atcsundevil
Moderator
Posts: 4290
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 12:22 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:51 am

Please continue in next year's thread.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1411877

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos