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TVNWZ
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:14 pm

maps4ltd wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Destin has gone 11x a week
Wow! this is Allegiant we are talking about


Last night on Fox 2 there was a "You Paid for It" segment where the host investigated Midamerica and Runway 11/29 and Lambert. If you watch Fox 2, you'll know that this is guy who goes around trying to prove things are corporate boondoggles and wastes of taxpayer money.

Anyway, they went to Midamerica when two Allegiant flights were arriving. Multiple times previously on the "You Paid for It" segment, the guy grilled BLV as a total money-burner. But this time, it looked like part of the E concourse at STL at 3 pm. It was ridiculously busy. The airport director even stuck it to him multiple times.

There's no denying that BLV is becoming successful. I drove by there the other day on my way to Mt. Vernon, and the parking lot was near full.


I'll deny it. It is a drain. And will continue to be.
 
777PHX
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:25 pm

maps4ltd wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Destin has gone 11x a week
Wow! this is Allegiant we are talking about


Last night on Fox 2 there was a "You Paid for It" segment where the host investigated Midamerica and Runway 11/29 and Lambert. If you watch Fox 2, you'll know that this is guy who goes around trying to prove things are corporate boondoggles and wastes of taxpayer money.

Anyway, they went to Midamerica when two Allegiant flights were arriving. Multiple times previously on the "You Paid for It" segment, the guy grilled BLV as a total money-burner. But this time, it looked like part of the E concourse at STL at 3 pm. It was ridiculously busy. The airport director even stuck it to him multiple times.

There's no denying that BLV is becoming successful. I drove by there the other day on my way to Mt. Vernon, and the parking lot was near full.


I like Elliot Davis, but he was way off base on this one.

Mid-America. Ok, sure, it hasn't been as successful as they had hoped. They also didn't see TWA being bought out and traffic at Lambert dropping nearly overnight. 9/11 didn't help things either. BLV has never been as successful as they are now. Clearly they're never going to be a super-hub, but they're doing alright for what they are now.

11/29. This one is just ridiculous. Planning for W1W began as early as 1991. They were 12 years into the project by the time AA made their first large scale cuts at STL at the end of 2003. No one could have predicted that was going to happen and you don't just shut down a large project like that when you're 12 years and how many hundreds of millions already into it. What's worse? Spending all of that money and having nothing to show for it, or spending as much money and at least have a brand new runway to show for your work?
 
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737MAX10
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:19 pm

Looks like a WN 737 and WW 321’s winglets collided at the E gates a short bit ago.
 
Jshank83
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:17 am

maps4ltd wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Airport actually released something early for once. Progress. Although some of their notes are spring to summer not YOY (like BOS)

https://www.flystl.com/newsroom/stl-new ... ummer-2019

BOS 5x (+1) really trying to keep everyone else out of this route
DTW 3x (+1)
BNA 4x (+1)
CLE 3x (+1)
DEN 6x (+1)
PNS 2x Saturday only (+1) Interesting to have that route only run one day a week but its 2x that day.
ECP 3x on Saturday (+1)
CUN stays daily which is more than the Saturday only last summer.
MBJ is back 1x weekly after a short break in APR/MAY
CHS looks like it went from daily to just SAT/SUN

Overall up

122 weekday +6
127 Sunday +7 Sunday departures from last year.

I'll have the frequency update out later today.


I'm still surprised DL hasn't jumped on BOS. Even B6 might look at it. Jesus, 5x Southwest 737s? That's a captive market, and I've seen WN push fares pretty high on this route.

DTW adds don't surprise me, what with the number of St. Louisans going to their Michigan lake houses. Sure, a lot of them drive, but still...

Damn, they really are building up BNA significantly! I think Lambert still (slightly) outpaces them, though.

I never thought STL could support 3 daily 737s (at least 400 seats!) to CLE, but I'm sure WN knows best.

They certainly are capitalizing on DEN! I have friends who literally go there every month, and almost everyone I know flies WN to DEN 100% of the time.

PNS and ECP--multiple daily frequencies on Saturday! Just make it 3x weekly or daily, already. The amount of St. Louisans who go to Destin is astonishing.

CUN, daily to more effectively compete with F9's (Apple Vacations-bolstered) service.

MBJ--doesn't surprise me.

CHS--this is interesting, especially seeing CLE get 3x daily. I would have thought CHS a bigger connecting/O&D market.

Thanks for the report!



2 years ago CHS was inputed at 2x a week then they changed it to daily later so they might do it again. We'll see.

I still don't get why no one else jumps on Boston WN is flooding the market but DL on a 175 doesn't seem like it would be hard to fill and they would get good money for it. WN charges a premium for nonstop. It is usually close to $200 one way, you can get one stops for half that. Even if someone else jumped on it they could charge $140 and do fine.

Also, incase it wasn't clear ECP is daily, it is just 3x on Saturday also.
 
STLflyer
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:57 am

737MAX10 wrote:
Looks like a WN 737 and WW 321’s winglets collided at the E gates a short bit ago.


A nice little FU to WOW before they leave us for good I guess.....

Wonder what the plan is for all the pax who were supposed to go to KEF tonight, do they even have a spare bird to send here? I'm guessing several connections in KEF have already been shot to hell since not all mainland European destinations are operated daily.
 
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737MAX10
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:00 am

STLflyer wrote:
737MAX10 wrote:
Looks like a WN 737 and WW 321’s winglets collided at the E gates a short bit ago.


A nice little FU to WOW before they leave us for good I guess.....

Wonder what the plan is for all the pax who were supposed to go to KEF tonight, do they even have a spare bird to send here? I'm guessing several connections in KEF have already been shot to hell since not all mainland European destinations are operated daily.

That is definitely a big drawback in their business model!
 
STLflyer
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:47 pm

Looks like they did have an aircraft to send to take pax to KEF today: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/WOW ... /BIKF/KSTL

I'm sure all the people who missed connections will be receiving lodging, food and transportation :rotfl:
 
Jshank83
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:11 pm

Here is my frequency spreadsheet for Summer. It is the June 10, 2019 tab, all the way to the right. Only WN has been updated so far. Ignore all the other airlines. If they all have been updated then it won't say incomplete on the tab. November is the most recent fully updated, (I don't do December cause it is too wonky with Christmas)

Most of the changes had been mentioned
adds to CLE/DTW/DEN/BOS/BNA
MBJ back on Saturday only.
PNS is back at 2x Saturday
A bunch of Saturday/Sunday changes that I don't want to list out.
Down from previous extension(not YOY)
CMH/PHX

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing
 
eaa3
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:12 pm

STLflyer wrote:
737MAX10 wrote:
Looks like a WN 737 and WW 321’s winglets collided at the E gates a short bit ago.


A nice little FU to WOW before they leave us for good I guess.....

Wonder what the plan is for all the pax who were supposed to go to KEF tonight, do they even have a spare bird to send here? I'm guessing several connections in KEF have already been shot to hell since not all mainland European destinations are operated daily.


Why a FU to WOW? They came to St. Louis, invested they own money and lost some whilst providing the community with a fantastic option on how to get to Europe. They didn’t use any of the offered marketing incentive. What an ungrateful and dumb thing to say.

I hope other airlines don’t read this thread because if this is the attitude from St. Louis, then others should stay away with their investments.
 
TNST3B
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:32 pm

maps4ltd wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Destin has gone 11x a week
Wow! this is Allegiant we are talking about


Last night on Fox 2 there was a "You Paid for It" segment where the host investigated Midamerica and Runway 11/29 and Lambert. If you watch Fox 2, you'll know that this is guy who goes around trying to prove things are corporate boondoggles and wastes of taxpayer money.

Anyway, they went to Midamerica when two Allegiant flights were arriving. Multiple times previously on the "You Paid for It" segment, the guy grilled BLV as a total money-burner. But this time, it looked like part of the E concourse at STL at 3 pm. It was ridiculously busy. The airport director even stuck it to him multiple times.

There's no denying that BLV is becoming successful. I drove by there the other day on my way to Mt. Vernon, and the parking lot was near full.


People still take him seriously?
 
Jshank83
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:34 pm

Biggest issue with BLV is they still are losing tons of money a year. Passengers go up but losses go up but expenses are going up just as fast so they can't make a profit.
 
galapagapop
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:59 pm

BLV is still heavily subsidized by St. Clair County and is still just a political toy at this point. Allegiant's flights all have a 10-20k marketing bonus attached for each new route they announce and operate, and they pay no landing fees on new routes. Before Allegiant's 2nd return, BLV spent 750k or so, subsidizing a series of cargo flights to Columbia aimed at creating an express flower delivery service, which resulted in 13 total flights that obviously did not succeed in giving BLV a purpose. Boeing's operation there (The first Boeing "Manufacturing plant" in Illinois) was just a total political favor from Boeing to Jerry Costello who chaired the House subcommittee that oversaw the FAA during the whole ATP Pilot Training Legislation in 2010 (notice how he retired shortly after the FAA released their finalized rules in 2013). There is no economically viable business model for BLV longterm outside of political considerations. If St. Clair County drops the subsidies, the airport goes idle again.

I'd say BLV's situation was unforeseeable due to the events that occurred with TWA, but the fact is BLV is just one of several vanity airport projects in Illinois that lose money hand over fist these days. Moreover BLV was largely built to better position Scott AFB for any future base closures by providing it with a new runway and utilized an underused funding pool the FAA had available at the time for improvements aimed at jointly operated civilian and military airports. BLV basically has never had a real economic use case, the TWA/Lambert relief airport angle was just the justification on why they're doing it.

The worst part about BLV though is the politics involved. Every time St. Louis leaders plan and prioritize infrastructure projects, BLV expects similar treatment for its projects as Lambert. It's absolutely insane. In our Amazon RFP, there's a page where our leaders literally wrote that St. Louis is "home to two airports that have runways with capacity". No seriously, we wrote, "Runways with capacity", because they can't handle the fact that Amazon's RFP specified daily commercial service to destinations BLV will never service. They are utterly delusional. I know there's even a presentation floating around where they plan a whole other runway and cargo operation on the other side of route 4 that would involve a tunnel under a taxiway.

If St. Clair County had any economic sense, they'd shut down BLV and focus on trying to turn that site into something like a green field Intermodal rail facility. St. Louis' existing intermodal facilities aren't optimized for the 10,000ft long trains seen today and there's no suitable sites close enough to the city that have rail service on the West side of the River, and there aren't a ton where you can get that length on the East side. Other cities have had success squeezing rail into an underutilized airport footprint, it'd honestly be the only logical thing they can do with that land that will ever possibly have a positive ROI. But that's just never going to happen at this point sadly.

End Rant XD
 
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stl07
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:38 pm

470 rt to china on AC one stop in YYZ FYI
 
jplatts
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:49 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
Biggest issue with BLV is they still are losing tons of money a year. Passengers go up but losses go up but expenses are going up just as fast so they can't make a profit.


If BLV is closed to commercial passenger air service, is there currently enough room to accommodate G4 at STL? Which concourse at STL is G4 likely to be accommodated if G4 moves over to STL from BLV?

I am unsure if G4 would actually keep all of the nonstop routes that it currently operates out of BLV if G4 moves to STL from BLV, but G4 would probably serve at least VPS, SFB, PGD, JAX, and AZA nonstop from STL if G4 moves from BLV to STL.
 
Jshank83
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Sat Nov 17, 2018 6:02 pm

jplatts wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Biggest issue with BLV is they still are losing tons of money a year. Passengers go up but losses go up but expenses are going up just as fast so they can't make a profit.


If BLV is closed to commercial passenger air service, is there currently enough room to accommodate G4 at STL? Which concourse at STL is G4 likely to be accommodated if G4 moves over to STL from BLV?

I am unsure if G4 would actually keep all of the nonstop routes that it currently operates out of BLV if G4 moves to STL from BLV, but G4 would probably serve at least VPS, SFB, PGD, JAX, and AZA nonstop from STL if G4 moves from BLV to STL.


BLV isn't closing but STL has plenty of room. They would just put them at the end of Concourse C
 
Trololzilla
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:06 pm

^ Yup, still plenty of room in C and D. Might still be able to squeeze someone in at A too (if they only need one gate and don't mind a tiny waiting area). I guess the airport could also ask Cape Air and Air Choice One to move to B if they really need the space in C - even if B's used sometimes as a rental event space, it probably wouldn't take any effort at all for at least gates B4 and B6 to be reactivated - just a belt barrier.
 
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TVNWZ
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:06 pm

777PHX wrote:
maps4ltd wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Destin has gone 11x a week
Wow! this is Allegiant we are talking about


Last night on Fox 2 there was a "You Paid for It" segment where the host investigated Midamerica and Runway 11/29 and Lambert. If you watch Fox 2, you'll know that this is guy who goes around trying to prove things are corporate boondoggles and wastes of taxpayer money.

Anyway, they went to Midamerica when two Allegiant flights were arriving. Multiple times previously on the "You Paid for It" segment, the guy grilled BLV as a total money-burner. But this time, it looked like part of the E concourse at STL at 3 pm. It was ridiculously busy. The airport director even stuck it to him multiple times.

There's no denying that BLV is becoming successful. I drove by there the other day on my way to Mt. Vernon, and the parking lot was near full.


I like Elliot Davis, but he was way off base on this one.

Mid-America. Ok, sure, it hasn't been as successful as they had hoped. They also didn't see TWA being bought out and traffic at Lambert dropping nearly overnight. 9/11 didn't help things either. BLV has never been as successful as they are now. Clearly they're never going to be a super-hub, but they're doing alright for what they are now.

11/29. This one is just ridiculous. Planning for W1W began as early as 1991. They were 12 years into the project by the time AA made their first large scale cuts at STL at the end of 2003. No one could have predicted that was going to happen and you don't just shut down a large project like that when you're 12 years and how many hundreds of millions already into it. What's worse? Spending all of that money and having nothing to show for it, or spending as much money and at least have a brand new runway to show for your work?


That runway was unneeded from the get go. Destroying Bridgeton, shakey airline. Sorry. It was, is and will always be a boondoggle.
 
Jshank83
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:33 pm

Trololzilla wrote:
^ Yup, still plenty of room in C and D. Might still be able to squeeze someone in at A too (if they only need one gate and don't mind a tiny waiting area). I guess the airport could also ask Cape Air and Air Choice One to move to B if they really need the space in C - even if B's used sometimes as a rental event space, it probably wouldn't take any effort at all for at least gates B4 and B6 to be reactivated - just a belt barrier.


They use 3 gates at BLV, so that eliminates A. With all the room left at the end of C (and in D), I think they would use that before even entertaining bring B back online.
 
jplatts
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:42 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jVsFC9-qzHcHAozzPXF62B8kR087NAPf8alh3Qiv_Uc/edit?usp=sharing


I'm surprised that WN hasn't yet added STL-CLT nonstop service with CLT being one of the top destinations traveled to from STL that isn't currently served nonstop out of STL on WN. I think that WN will likely add STL-CLT nonstop service at some point with CLT being one of the top destinations traveled to from STL that WN doesn't currently serve nonstop from STL, and I think that WN adding STL-CLT nonstop service is a matter of when rather than a matter of if.

STL can likely support nonstop service to CLT on both AA and WN since there are many travelers in the STL market who are loyal to WN and since STL used to have nonstop service to CLT on both TW and US back in the days when TW was around. There would also be some passengers connecting to CLT from DEN, MCI, OMA, and other destinations west of the Mississippi through STL on WN if WN adds STL-CLT nonstop service. There was also an average of 328 passengers per day traveling between STL and CLT in Q2 2018.

Why hasn't WN yet added STL-CLT nonstop service if CLT is one of the top destinations traveled to from STL that isn't already served nonstop out of STL on WN? Is WN likely to add STL-CLT nonstop service anytime soon?
 
Jshank83
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:16 am

jplatts wrote:

Why hasn't WN yet added STL-CLT nonstop service if CLT is one of the top destinations traveled to from STL that isn't already served nonstop out of STL on WN? Is WN likely to add STL-CLT nonstop service anytime soon?


No clue. But isn't WN gate constrained at CLT?
 
Trololzilla
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:51 am

TVNWZ wrote:
That runway was unneeded from the get go. Destroying Bridgeton, shakey airline. Sorry. It was, is and will always be a boondoggle.

I can quote third party airport planners and engineers that say that the runway was justified - shaky primary carrier or not. You have to remember that the runway's primary reason for existence was to eliminate horrendous delays in inclement weather, not just alleviating general congestion at the airport. The runway absolutely is used in its primary capacity to this day.

The Master Plan Supplement generated three traffic forecasts against which to compare possible airport development alternatives. The reality of the world saw traffic dip to levels below even the lowest predicted outcome of ~26 million passengers by 2015 (an outcome, I might add, that actually factored in the loss of TWA as well as much of the traffic being replaced by another airline eventually - quite accurate in that respect at least, I'd say). Though the planners should have weighted plans more towards the lower outcome, particularly with TWA's warning signs, the primary factor again was delay-driven, not demand-driven. In addition, no one foresaw 9/11 nor the impact it would have on aviation globally, let alone its impact on STL, so in this regard, the traffic forecasts should not be blamed for the runway.

There were 9 options considered for the airport expansion. Two - the CANTED-1 option, which required building 3 new parallel runways while maintaining continuous operations, and X-1, the "no-action" plan - were quickly dismissed due to the issues of cost and complexity in the case of the former, or because it solved nothing in the case of the latter. In the end, it came down to two options - W-1W, and S-1. W-1W, of course, is the plan that was actually carried out (and not in its full form either), while S-1 involved building a 3rd parallel runway south of I-70, as well as a taxiway over the interstate and several of the same options as in W-1W (such as a new midfield terminal and a lengthening of Runway 12R/30L). While S-1 would have achieved somewhat shorter taxi times, its benefits were outweighed by the increase in cost over W-1W, along with the fact that it would have displaced more people and affected more communities, thus making W-1W the ultimate selection. The relevant data seem to back this conclusion.

11/29's being paid off and is seeing more and more use, allows the airport to have much better capacity in all weather going forward, and will be an invaluable asset in the future, so I don't really see it as a boondoggle. Sorry not sorry Bridgeton.

Jshank83 wrote:
They use 3 gates at BLV, so that eliminates A. With all the room left at the end of C (and in D), I think they would use that before even entertaining bring B back online.

Yeah, I was talking more in general terms in that the airport has no pressing space concerns at all, so accommodating G4 (and plenty of other growth) wouldn't be an issue for the foreseeable future.
 
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TWA302
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:34 pm

TVNWZ wrote:
777PHX wrote:
maps4ltd wrote:

Last night on Fox 2 there was a "You Paid for It" segment where the host investigated Midamerica and Runway 11/29 and Lambert. If you watch Fox 2, you'll know that this is guy who goes around trying to prove things are corporate boondoggles and wastes of taxpayer money.

Anyway, they went to Midamerica when two Allegiant flights were arriving. Multiple times previously on the "You Paid for It" segment, the guy grilled BLV as a total money-burner. But this time, it looked like part of the E concourse at STL at 3 pm. It was ridiculously busy. The airport director even stuck it to him multiple times.

There's no denying that BLV is becoming successful. I drove by there the other day on my way to Mt. Vernon, and the parking lot was near full.


I like Elliot Davis, but he was way off base on this one.

Mid-America. Ok, sure, it hasn't been as successful as they had hoped. They also didn't see TWA being bought out and traffic at Lambert dropping nearly overnight. 9/11 didn't help things either. BLV has never been as successful as they are now. Clearly they're never going to be a super-hub, but they're doing alright for what they are now.

11/29. This one is just ridiculous. Planning for W1W began as early as 1991. They were 12 years into the project by the time AA made their first large scale cuts at STL at the end of 2003. No one could have predicted that was going to happen and you don't just shut down a large project like that when you're 12 years and how many hundreds of millions already into it. What's worse? Spending all of that money and having nothing to show for it, or spending as much money and at least have a brand new runway to show for your work?


That runway was unneeded from the get go. Destroying Bridgeton, shakey airline. Sorry. It was, is and will always be a boondoggle.


Sounds like someone is salty. That runway was indeed needed and was approved far before the ultimate demise of TW which was excelerated by 9/11. While not used as much as it would have been 11/29 is used and helps a ton during poor weather.
 
mwmav8r01
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Sun Nov 18, 2018 6:47 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
jplatts wrote:

Why hasn't WN yet added STL-CLT nonstop service if CLT is one of the top destinations traveled to from STL that isn't already served nonstop out of STL on WN? Is WN likely to add STL-CLT nonstop service anytime soon?


No clue. But isn't WN gate constrained at CLT?


Yes very much so. BNA seems to be the gateway to the mid tiered SE cities. ORF, CLT, panhandle, GSP (formerly). Id be curious to see if that changes.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:21 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
Trololzilla wrote:
^ Yup, still plenty of room in C and D. Might still be able to squeeze someone in at A too (if they only need one gate and don't mind a tiny waiting area). I guess the airport could also ask Cape Air and Air Choice One to move to B if they really need the space in C - even if B's used sometimes as a rental event space, it probably wouldn't take any effort at all for at least gates B4 and B6 to be reactivated - just a belt barrier.


They use 3 gates at BLV, so that eliminates A. With all the room left at the end of C (and in D), I think they would use that before even entertaining bring B back online.


G4 doesn't need 3 gates though, they could likely run the BLV operation out of 1 gate if needed to, but since the airport isn't busy there is no need to use 1 gate and can therefore adjust their flight times.
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777PHX
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:07 pm

TVNWZ wrote:
777PHX wrote:
maps4ltd wrote:

Last night on Fox 2 there was a "You Paid for It" segment where the host investigated Midamerica and Runway 11/29 and Lambert. If you watch Fox 2, you'll know that this is guy who goes around trying to prove things are corporate boondoggles and wastes of taxpayer money.

Anyway, they went to Midamerica when two Allegiant flights were arriving. Multiple times previously on the "You Paid for It" segment, the guy grilled BLV as a total money-burner. But this time, it looked like part of the E concourse at STL at 3 pm. It was ridiculously busy. The airport director even stuck it to him multiple times.

There's no denying that BLV is becoming successful. I drove by there the other day on my way to Mt. Vernon, and the parking lot was near full.


I like Elliot Davis, but he was way off base on this one.

Mid-America. Ok, sure, it hasn't been as successful as they had hoped. They also didn't see TWA being bought out and traffic at Lambert dropping nearly overnight. 9/11 didn't help things either. BLV has never been as successful as they are now. Clearly they're never going to be a super-hub, but they're doing alright for what they are now.

11/29. This one is just ridiculous. Planning for W1W began as early as 1991. They were 12 years into the project by the time AA made their first large scale cuts at STL at the end of 2003. No one could have predicted that was going to happen and you don't just shut down a large project like that when you're 12 years and how many hundreds of millions already into it. What's worse? Spending all of that money and having nothing to show for it, or spending as much money and at least have a brand new runway to show for your work?


That runway was unneeded from the get go. Destroying Bridgeton, shakey airline. Sorry. It was, is and will always be a boondoggle.


The runway was needed because STL was a poorly designed airport from the get go.
 
Jshank83
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:54 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Trololzilla wrote:
^ Yup, still plenty of room in C and D. Might still be able to squeeze someone in at A too (if they only need one gate and don't mind a tiny waiting area). I guess the airport could also ask Cape Air and Air Choice One to move to B if they really need the space in C - even if B's used sometimes as a rental event space, it probably wouldn't take any effort at all for at least gates B4 and B6 to be reactivated - just a belt barrier.


They use 3 gates at BLV, so that eliminates A. With all the room left at the end of C (and in D), I think they would use that before even entertaining bring B back online.


G4 doesn't need 3 gates though, they could likely run the BLV operation out of 1 gate if needed to, but since the airport isn't busy there is no need to use 1 gate and can therefore adjust their flight times.


True. I think their max is only 5 a day so they could probably make 1 work. Might need an overflow gate option if needed. They still wouldn't go in A but you are right about not needing 3 gates.
 
stlgph
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:17 pm

Allegiant aircraft aren't based in St. Louis or Belleville, they're coming in from various bases, all with roughly the same flying time as the other. So if they need 2 gates, or 3 gates, give it to them. The more the merrier.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
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stl07
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:58 am

What is this inside joke that made its way to the STL twitter page?
https://twitter.com/flystl/status/1064250714761936898
Seems like some kind of drunken post at the airport conference after party
 
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symphonicpoet
Posts: 31
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:40 am

777PHX wrote:
The runway was needed because STL was a poorly designed airport from the get go.


Don't you think that's just a bit unfair? I'd say it's more that it's unusually old for a major airport with a site that dates to 1920 and a current configuration dating essentially to 1956. (Albeit with quite a few expansions shoehorned in every which way.) In 1920 I doubt anyone could have foreseen a better site. That was already pretty dang far out of town. Anything else would have been prohibitively so. Over the course of the next thirty years things built up around the site. By 1956 you had a lot of McDonnell on one side and a lot of highway on the other. And airliners were still essentially piston powered and there was no security. I'm not even sure Boeing could have guessed how much aviation would change with the jet age they helped to usher in. Given the site constraints I'd say it's quite the miracle they've managed what they have. You can make the argument they should have moved it, but what would that have really changed? Would it have saved TWA? Or would you just be stuck with an expensive empty airport in the middle of nowhere? (Oh wait, we have that too.) I won't say the place is perfect, but it's a bit of a stretch to call it poorly designed. Particularly when you count the absurd number of changes that design has survived. It was built for a different industry; one where monoplanes were the bleeding edge of high tech and fabric covered biplanes were very much still in daily service. And the tall skinny guy flying airmail out of the place wasn't a famous yet. There really are not many major airfields that date back that far. Templehof came close. As does Midway. Heathrow isn't too much newer, though that was a pretty eventful decade.) When you really come down to it, most airports of anything remotely close to that vintage have some similar problems. (Runways too close, stuff on all sides, older terminals that have been retrofitted ten ways 'til Tuesday, awkward taxiways, you name it.) And most places fight to keep those convenient older airports open. (And when they don't Southwest will fight the fight for them.) The place has its flaws, but I don't think poor design is fairly one of them.
TW AA MU JL KE DL UA LOF GJS SKW WN
STL JFK FRA GVA CDG IAD ORD PVG SGN NRT ICN ATL SFO HKG MDW LGA BNA
L1011 MD82 83 88 B737 738 741 744 762 772 773 777 A320 E175 C700
 
Jshank83
Topic Author
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:18 pm

stl07 wrote:
What is this inside joke that made its way to the STL twitter page?
https://twitter.com/flystl/status/1064250714761936898
Seems like some kind of drunken post at the airport conference after party


I saw that and was thinking, wtf.
 
Jshank83
Topic Author
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:37 pm

symphonicpoet wrote:
awkward taxiways


I think they are actually somewhat fixing this. I didn't realize it was an issue (besides being too close to A/C) but have out a RFQ for an Airport layout plan.

BACKGROUND ISSUES: The last Airport Layout Plan for St. Louis Lambert International Airport was approved in 2013. The 2013 layout plan and associated master plan will form the building blocks to update the comprehensive planning that will be used to guide and shape future improvements at St. Louis Lambert Airport.

Since the last Airport Layout Plan, there have significant changes to the aviation industry and how the airlines utilize St. Louis Lambert Airport. Substantial growth has occurred in connecting passengers; airline fleets have been up-gauged; international service has expanded and direct service to Europe has returned; and transportation network companies are altering access dynamics.

For over a decade St Louis has been a focus market for Southwest Airlines service. In 2017, Southwest transformed the business model for the airport from point-to-point service into a connecting hub.

Today, Southwest operates five to seven daily inbound and outbound banks from Terminal 2. Arriving banks consisting of 12-14 planes occurring in 30-minute windows are routine. Turnaround of aircraft for the outbound push takes 40-minutes or less. The airline will push back as many as 9 planes in a 5-minute window.

During the morning and afternoon peak commute hours, the outbound banks will overlap aircraft traffic from Terminal 1. The overall traffic stresses the Airfield System and airport Ground Access for vehicular modes of transportation.

Airside there is ample runway capacity to serve airline needs. However, the supporting taxiway system is a fusion of geometries that do not in all cases meet current Federal Aviation Administration design standards. There is also an overabundance of connecting taxiways, which at times may compromise pilot situational awareness. Balancing FAA Design Standards with user demands (ATC & Airlines) will be a focus area.

SCOPE OF SERVICES:
A principal focus will be on the Airport Geographic Information System (AGIS) component. There will also be airside emphasis on taxiway geometry.
 
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BN727227Ultra
Posts: 530
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:11 pm

symphonicpoet wrote:
777PHX wrote:
The runway was needed because STL was a poorly designed airport from the get go.


Don't you think that's just a bit unfair? I'd say it's more that it's unusually old for a major airport with a site that dates to 1920 and a current configuration dating essentially to 1956. (Albeit with quite a few expansions shoehorned in every which way.) In 1920 I doubt anyone could have foreseen a better site. That was already pretty dang far out of town. Anything else would have been prohibitively so. Over the course of the next thirty years things built up around the site. By 1956 you had a lot of McDonnell on one side and a lot of highway on the other. And airliners were still essentially piston powered and there was no security. I'm not even sure Boeing could have guessed how much aviation would change with the jet age they helped to usher in. Given the site constraints I'd say it's quite the miracle they've managed what they have. You can make the argument they should have moved it, but what would that have really changed? Would it have saved TWA? Or would you just be stuck with an expensive empty airport in the middle of nowhere? (Oh wait, we have that too.) I won't say the place is perfect, but it's a bit of a stretch to call it poorly designed. Particularly when you count the absurd number of changes that design has survived. It was built for a different industry; one where monoplanes were the bleeding edge of high tech and fabric covered biplanes were very much still in daily service. And the tall skinny guy flying airmail out of the place wasn't a famous yet. There really are not many major airfields that date back that far. Templehof came close. As does Midway. Heathrow isn't too much newer, though that was a pretty eventful decade.) When you really come down to it, most airports of anything remotely close to that vintage have some similar problems. (Runways too close, stuff on all sides, older terminals that have been retrofitted ten ways 'til Tuesday, awkward taxiways, you name it.) And most places fight to keep those convenient older airports open. (And when they don't Southwest will fight the fight for them.) The place has its flaws, but I don't think poor design is fairly one of them.


I'm the first to rag on my hometown (K'highway and I-70, repperzent!) and their envy of Chicago and the southeast metroplexes. But pick one city that's happy with their airport. Even DFW and ATL have wish lists, DEN is in the best shape of all but ask them what they'd like. But 11/29 isn't a white elephant anymore when you consider flight banks. Lambert has three parallel runways, just like the big boys. I just saw stats where STL is WN's 9th busiest station--behind ATL. So believe me, STL is very happy with 11/29. STL is in a sweet spot--finally--and I'm happy to eat whatever crow I've espoused on this and other boards. Sure, EK won't be sending 2x 388s into Lambert But Boeing's MOM and Airbus' A321NEO will probably make LHR/CDG doable, finally. And they won't need to invest in much if any new infrastructure.

I just wish that I-70 wasn't there. Pie/sky, sure, but I stayed two nights at the airport Marriott this summer and while there was no jet noise, traffic resembled the Monaco GP but at Talladega speeds. There's too much spaghetti road structure, trying to cram too much in between Lambert and I-70.
 
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TVNWZ
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:23 pm

Trololzilla wrote:
I can quote third party airport planners and engineers that say that the runway was justified - shaky primary carrier or not. You have to remember that the runway's primary reason for existence was to eliminate horrendous delays in inclement weather, not just alleviating general congestion at the airport. The runway absolutely is used in its primary capacity to this day.


Of course you can. These people are paid to expand airports and come up with plans that call for expansion. I was Aviator Gold/Plat for many years. Flew out of STL all that time and never saw anything approaching a horrendous delay because of inclement weather unless it was a major ice/snow storm. Those conditions have occurred with the new runway and you still have a horrendous delay.
No, it is a boondoggle.
 
Trololzilla
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:18 am

^ Would you like to see the relevant data?

I can also guarantee you that most low visibility conditions created major issues back before 11/29 - there's publicly available airport/governmental data on that, too. Delays due to weather still happen, of course, but they're much, much less pronounced than they were 20-odd years ago. I ask again - how can the runway be a boondoggle, which implies that it was unnecessary (it wasn't) and will never be paid off/paid off incredibly far into the future (even though the airport is doing very well in paying it off in a fairly timely manner)?

And by third-party I meant neutral, outside observers that had nothing to do with the actual planning or construction of the airport expansion and are merely analyzing the project after the fact from an essentially objective viewpoint.
 
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TWA302
Posts: 436
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:23 pm

TVNWZ wrote:
Trololzilla wrote:
I can quote third party airport planners and engineers that say that the runway was justified - shaky primary carrier or not. You have to remember that the runway's primary reason for existence was to eliminate horrendous delays in inclement weather, not just alleviating general congestion at the airport. The runway absolutely is used in its primary capacity to this day.


Of course you can. These people are paid to expand airports and come up with plans that call for expansion. I was Aviator Gold/Plat for many years. Flew out of STL all that time and never saw anything approaching a horrendous delay because of inclement weather unless it was a major ice/snow storm. Those conditions have occurred with the new runway and you still have a horrendous delay.
No, it is a boondoggle.


You never flew out in storms/low vis? I can recall many times when this shut down parallel approaches. 11/29 was designed to eliminate the congestion when parallel approaches were not allowed due to bad weather. 12/30s were built too close together to allow that to happen (hence a poor design). W1W solves the problem and it has been helpful to the airport. Could it be used more? Sure it could. BUT why would WN use 29 for departures when 30L is right at their front door? Those few A terminal airlines use 29 regularly. Makes sense. If TW was still around and going at the levels it was back in the mid/late 90s, it would be a different story. It is what it is and the runway is there.
 
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flyPIT
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:33 pm

STL is approaching 200,000 operations with a hub carrier more stable than TWA ever was. The decision to provide for simultaneous independent IFR arrivals was the correct one, and one that will prove more obvious in the years ahead.
FLYi
 
Jshank83
Topic Author
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:08 pm

Updated my LF spreadsheet for August (Intl for May)

Two new routes that started in August:
Southwest STL to BDL 88.5%
Frontier STL to JAX 63%

First numbers for WOW, but it only has data for one flight even though there were more flights than one, so that seems weird.
Outbound
84/180=47%
Inbound
78/180=43%

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing
 
Jshank83
Topic Author
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:45 pm

Updated Frequency Spreadsheet for January.

Should be pretty firm by now.

STL up 35 overall flights or 2.3%
BLV down 4 or 25%

Notable Weekly YOY Changes. This doesn't take into account upgauging/downgauging.

Up 31 overall flights or 2.6%
Airline--total flights a week-- change
WN 716 +40 (6%)
AA 257 -14 (5.4%)
DL 193 +19 (11%)
UA 177 -8 (4.3%)
F9 36 -1 (2.7%)
AC 20 +1 (5.3%)
AS 13 -1 (7.1%)
G4 12 -4 (25%)
SY 4 +4 (new)

left out Cape/Air Choice/Charters of above (they are in spreadsheet)

Other notes
I wasn't keeping track of plane type yet January last year so I can't compare to see how much upgauging or downgauging effected seats. I didn't keep track of RJ or mainline so I have a little of an idea.
DL is running more flights but less mainline (12x per day in 2019 compared to 16x in 2018) so 3 extra daily flights probably doesn't make a huge difference seat wise. More frequency is nice though.
AA kept mainline the same so they are just down RJ flights. I THINK they are down 50 seaters though, so again might not be a huge difference if others are on bigger RJs now.
UA was all RJ last January, they are running a mainline on IAH. BUT only 6 of their 26 daily flights are on something bigger than a 50 seater. Which still is disappointing.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing
 
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stl07
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:22 pm

Unsurprisingly, WW lied again

They cut STL supposedly because they wanted more connections from cities with demand from India (that is, after first saying the market in STL was bad, but the local media caught them taking about how well STL preformed ), but now, India is being cut in January, meaning the notion that STL was cut to provide service from bigger cities to India was just a rush cover-up job
 
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stl07
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:30 pm

WW cut PIT

So now they have nothing until BA and the few condor flights start

disappointing for the whole midwest, but now I can understand why PIT was in such a rush to get BA and was so generous with them.
 
pmanni1
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:17 am

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:07 am

Jshank83 wrote:
Updated my LF spreadsheet for August (Intl for May)

Two new routes that started in August:
Southwest STL to BDL 88.5%
Frontier STL to JAX 63%

First numbers for WOW, but it only has data for one flight even though there were more flights than one, so that seems weird.
Outbound
84/180=47%
Inbound
78/180=43%

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

I wonder if JAX has improved since August. If not, F9 will drop this. No doubt in my mind that WN could start this 1x daily.
 
Jshank83
Topic Author
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:29 am

pmanni1 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Updated my LF spreadsheet for August (Intl for May)

Two new routes that started in August:
Southwest STL to BDL 88.5%
Frontier STL to JAX 63%

First numbers for WOW, but it only has data for one flight even though there were more flights than one, so that seems weird.
Outbound
84/180=47%
Inbound
78/180=43%

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

I wonder if JAX has improved since August. If not, F9 will drop this. No doubt in my mind that WN could start this 1x daily.


MCI got cut after a month or 6 weeks. So I guess sales must be doing ok but you never know with F9
 
Jshank83
Topic Author
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:33 am

stl07 wrote:
Unsurprisingly, WW lied again

They cut STL supposedly because they wanted more connections from cities with demand from India (that is, after first saying the market in STL was bad, but the local media caught them taking about how well STL preformed ), but now, India is being cut in January, meaning the notion that STL was cut to provide service from bigger cities to India was just a rush cover-up job


I think they actually were wanting to do India to big cities but their finances went in the hole faster than they thought they would. Now they have to return A330s which screw up the India plan.
 
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TVNWZ
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:59 am

flyPIT wrote:
STL is approaching 200,000 operations with a hub carrier more stable than TWA ever was. The decision to provide for simultaneous independent IFR arrivals was the correct one, and one that will prove more obvious in the years ahead.


I'll wait. But, with a stagnant population, fewer corporate headquarters, and no other hub airlines, I don't know where the big number of flyers will come from to fill all those extra planes. Boondoggle.
 
Jshank83
Topic Author
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:45 am

TVNWZ wrote:
flyPIT wrote:
STL is approaching 200,000 operations with a hub carrier more stable than TWA ever was. The decision to provide for simultaneous independent IFR arrivals was the correct one, and one that will prove more obvious in the years ahead.


I'll wait. But, with a stagnant population, fewer corporate headquarters, and no other hub airlines, I don't know where the big number of flyers will come from to fill all those extra planes. Boondoggle.


O&D has been growing pretty steady this year. Up 6% in June and 4% in July. With the extra connections Southwest keeps adding I don’t think they will have any problem filling more planes.

But the runway probably is a longer argument.
 
PC12Fan
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:53 am

TVNWZ wrote:
Trololzilla wrote:
I can quote third party airport planners and engineers that say that the runway was justified - shaky primary carrier or not. You have to remember that the runway's primary reason for existence was to eliminate horrendous delays in inclement weather, not just alleviating general congestion at the airport. The runway absolutely is used in its primary capacity to this day.


I was Aviator Gold/Plat for many years. Flew out of STL all that time and never saw anything approaching a horrendous delay because of inclement weather unless it was a major ice/snow storm.
No, it is a boondoggle.


I call exaggeration on this. I worked at STL for 18 years and the running joke was if a little puffball cloud parked itself over the field - there were delays.

The fact of the matter is this, 12R/30L and 12L/30R were and are to close to each other to allow simultaneous IFR approaches. The addition of 11/29 allowed simultaneous approaches. However, T-storms and snow will always cause delays at STL. T-storms for obvious reasons. Snow because if either 12L/30R or 11/29 are closed for removal ops, boom, your restricted to one approach runway again because of the separation restrictions.

11/29 was desperately needed at the time, but the critics can and will always say it never was needed because their hindsight is very good. If people knew 9/11 was gonna happen, 11/29 would have never happened.
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
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TVNWZ
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:04 am

I never said there were not delays. Just not horrendous delays except for the major snow storm or tornado. They still have big delays to this day even with the runway every time there is a big snow, rain, sleet storm. I am aware of the close runways and the way they staggered landings and takeoffs to adjust to that. The delays back then...IMHO even at that time...to spend $1B for little gain was uneconomical for the need and devastating to a whole city of Bridgeton.
 
Jshank83
Topic Author
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:23 pm

October was another good month for the airport

Pasengers up 6.3% for the month (6.1% on the year)
Cargo was up 14.7% on the month!

https://www.flystl.com/uploads/document ... PubRel.pdf


If we stay at 6.1% for Nov/Dec we would end up with 15.63 mil on the year. Highest since 2003.
 
PC12Fan
Posts: 2065
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:50 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:15 am

TVNWZ wrote:
I never said there were not delays. Just not horrendous delays except for the major snow storm or tornado. They still have big delays to this day even with the runway every time there is a big snow, rain, sleet storm. I am aware of the close runways and the way they staggered landings and takeoffs to adjust to that. The delays back then...IMHO even at that time...to spend $1B for little gain was uneconomical for the need and devastating to a whole city of Bridgeton.


I hear ya - but this was an investment. Staggering the TO's and Landings ate time. And as we all know in this industry, time is money. Nobody, not just TWA, wanted to commit to an airport that couldn't deliver resonably expected consistent arrivals in bad weather. It was simply about growth.

Regards
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
Jshank83
Topic Author
Posts: 2152
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:09 am

BLV is looking to expand. 2 new gates. $30 million dollars. Start next Fall and it would take 3 years.

Most interesting part to me is the expansion looks to include INTL baggage claim. So it makes me wonder if they have had talks to add a flight to Mexico or the Caribbean.

Personally, I want the airport to do well but they bleed money every year as is. I am not sure an expansion when you are relying exclusively on one airline is the best use of funds. If Allegiant goes under, gets bought out, or decides to leave you are stuck with no one.

Floor plan level 1:

https://www.blvmasterplan.com/wp-conten ... 1018-1.pdf

Level 2:

https://www.blvmasterplan.com/wp-conten ... 1018-1.pdf

Articles:
https://www.riverbender.com/articles/de ... -32237.cfm

https://www.kmov.com/news/midamerica-ai ... 1d5b6.html

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