Qantas59
Posts: 153
Joined: Sat May 04, 2013 4:51 pm

Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:23 pm

Does anyone know if there are any 777-223ERs that still have the 37 seat Business cabin with Zodiac fwd and aft facing seat configuration?
Cheers.
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mhkansan
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Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:58 pm

MO11 wrote:
alasizon wrote:
mhkansan wrote:

These aircraft all have brand new interiors. One of the Delta planes, N755EV, just began flying for AA this week. There are also several ex-Horizon birds all with -QX registrations that got new interiors in 2015-16. Those are some of the oldest CRJ-700s flying.

More from the same article LAXintl posted:
"""For the short-term, we expect to retain the majority of these aircraft under our various American [Eagle] flying agreements with some transition expense," he said. "However, since we own these aircraft with very little debt remaining, we are evaluating various options for these aircraft, including selling, leasing to third parties or utilizing or selling their parts."

Still on ExpressJet, Steel said that SkyWest does not expect American Airlines to extend flying contracts covering eighteen CRJ-700s beyond early 2019. The aircraft entail 12 from an original contract with American and six short-term aircraft that were transitioned to American Eagle from the Delta contract.

"We expect to return these aircraft to the lessors by early 2019," he added.""
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... -contracts


This is highly surprising as these count as small RJs as opposed to the existing OO CR7s that are 6F/64Y and count as large RJs. Given that I know the birds were originally planned for the summer schedule and OO just went through the process of opening up a DFW base, something else has to be yet to be announced or the article is simply just no longer correct (the article is from July).



There does appear to be some omissions. ExpressJet operates the 12 former Horizon CRJ-700s, plus 6 that came from Delta Connection. Meanwhile, there are other CRJ-700s that were former ExpressJet/Delta Connection or Skywest/Delta Connection, that are being inducted into American Eagle service, operaated by Skywest. N764SK starts tomorrow (Sunday), and two ex-ExpressJet airplanes ferried out of TUS for paint.


Looks like a number of the ex-Horizon birds are now in TUS, some since last month. I wonder if they are being stored there indefinitely. They all got new interiors and paint in 2016 and aren't that old as far as RJs go, and they're already configured in the 9F56Y "small RJ." I wonder if PSA or Envoy would take them up if SkyWest can't staff them.
 
redwingspilot
Posts: 132
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2015 5:37 pm

Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:09 pm

Qantas59 wrote:
Does anyone know if there are any 777-223ERs that still have the 37 seat Business cabin with Zodiac fwd and aft facing seat configuration?
Cheers.


I believe these aircraft still have the Zodiac Concept-D seats; 7AM, 7AN, 7AA, 7BL, 7AE, 7BY, 7AV
 
Detroit313
Posts: 253
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:18 pm

How many 737s were delivered before 2009 and will not be part of Oasis?

The vast majority was delivered after 2009 and will be retrofitted, right?
 
anymaninfc
Posts: 142
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Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:45 pm

Detroit313 wrote:
How many 737s were delivered before 2009 and will not be part of Oasis?

The vast majority was delivered after 2009 and will be retrofitted, right?

I believe there are 76 aircraft in the pre-2009 group. I have no info on what AA intends to do with the ovrhd binds and seating on these. Perhaps accomplish them last when their plans for aircraft retirements are clear? Can't imagine AA would want another subgroup configuration for too long.
 
alasizon
Topic Author
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Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:51 pm

mhkansan wrote:
Looks like a number of the ex-Horizon birds are now in TUS, some since last month. I wonder if they are being stored there indefinitely. They all got new interiors and paint in 2016 and aren't that old as far as RJs go, and they're already configured in the 9F56Y "small RJ." I wonder if PSA or Envoy would take them up if SkyWest can't staff them.


A lot of the birds are in transition/conformity check as well as some reconfiguration to match the proper galley setups, etc. As far as the staffing goes, OO has no problem staffing these birds and given that they own them; they aren't going to transfer them to another carrier. They may just be sitting in TUS until their paint spot (for those going from DL>AA) opens up or until they are needed in the schedule.

anymaninfc wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
How many 737s were delivered before 2009 and will not be part of Oasis?

The vast majority was delivered after 2009 and will be retrofitted, right?

I believe there are 76 aircraft in the pre-2009 group. I have no info on what AA intends to do with the ovrhd binds and seating on these. Perhaps accomplish them last when their plans for aircraft retirements are clear? Can't imagine AA would want another subgroup configuration for too long.


I believe these are some of the ones that are planned to begin being retired in 2021.
Manager on Duty & Tower Planner
 
mhkansan
Posts: 854
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Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:04 pm

alasizon wrote:
mhkansan wrote:
Looks like a number of the ex-Horizon birds are now in TUS, some since last month. I wonder if they are being stored there indefinitely. They all got new interiors and paint in 2016 and aren't that old as far as RJs go, and they're already configured in the 9F56Y "small RJ." I wonder if PSA or Envoy would take them up if SkyWest can't staff them.


A lot of the birds are in transition/conformity check as well as some reconfiguration to match the proper galley setups, etc. As far as the staffing goes, OO has no problem staffing these birds and given that they own them; they aren't going to transfer them to another carrier. They may just be sitting in TUS until their paint spot (for those going from DL>AA) opens up or until they are needed in the schedule.



The -QX birds have been with ExpressJet flying for American Eagle in DFW since January 2016.
 
Swadian
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Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:09 pm

redwingspilot wrote:
Qantas59 wrote:
Does anyone know if there are any 777-223ERs that still have the 37 seat Business cabin with Zodiac fwd and aft facing seat configuration?
Cheers.


I believe these aircraft still have the Zodiac Concept-D seats; 7AM, 7AN, 7AA, 7BL, 7AE, 7BY, 7AV


Does 7AK still have Zodiac or did they tear out the Zodiac for Super Diamond?
 
redwingspilot
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Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:05 pm

Swadian wrote:
redwingspilot wrote:
Qantas59 wrote:
Does anyone know if there are any 777-223ERs that still have the 37 seat Business cabin with Zodiac fwd and aft facing seat configuration?
Cheers.


I believe these aircraft still have the Zodiac Concept-D seats; 7AM, 7AN, 7AA, 7BL, 7AE, 7BY, 7AV


Does 7AK still have Zodiac or did they tear out the Zodiac for Super Diamond?


7AK has the Super Diamond
 
Qantas59
Posts: 153
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Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:43 am

Thanks for your help redwingspilot.
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Swadian
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Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:04 pm

redwingspilot wrote:
Swadian wrote:
redwingspilot wrote:

I believe these aircraft still have the Zodiac Concept-D seats; 7AM, 7AN, 7AA, 7BL, 7AE, 7BY, 7AV


Does 7AK still have Zodiac or did they tear out the Zodiac for Super Diamond?


7AK has the Super Diamond


What are happening to the existing Zodiac seats? Will they be replaced with Super Diamonds?

AA fleet site said 7AK had Zodiac: https://sites.google.com/site/newameric ... -777-200er.
 
redwingspilot
Posts: 132
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Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:00 pm

Swadian wrote:
redwingspilot wrote:
Swadian wrote:

Does 7AK still have Zodiac or did they tear out the Zodiac for Super Diamond?


7AK has the Super Diamond


What are happening to the existing Zodiac seats? Will they be replaced with Super Diamonds?

AA fleet site said 7AK had Zodiac: https://sites.google.com/site/newameric ... -777-200er.


I'm going off the Flight Attendant Inflight Manual that lists the aircraft for them and what configuration and seats it has. But I don't know exact details on getting rid of the Zodiac seats, but it seems they're slowly replacing them with the Super Diamond.
 
miaami
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Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:54 pm

Not sure if this the 2nd 319 that AA got from Frontier or if its still the first one, just getting additional work done.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N92 ... /KGYR/KBFM
 
anymaninfc
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Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:22 pm

miaami wrote:
Not sure if this the 2nd 319 that AA got from Frontier or if its still the first one, just getting additional work done.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N92 ... /KGYR/KBFM

It's the same tail number as the first aircraft...which has already spent about two months at GYR. I don't see how they will get three into AA service this year if this is typical introduction rate.
 
Swadian
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Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:27 am

Did AA make a mistake by ordering the 38M and putting a terrible configuration in them instead of keeping the 75Ws and refurbishing them to 75L? AA is losing premium revenue and high on debt. Perhaps they could've waited on more A321neos instead of retiring the 75Ws so early. DL seems to do well with their 752s.
 
MLIAA
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Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:49 pm

The MAX8 would be fine if they put a decent configuration in it. If they packed people up to the gills of the 757 it would still be a crappy product.
A319 A320 A321 A332 B712 B722 B737 B738 B739 B744 B752 B763 B764 B772 B788 MD80 S340 E140 E145 E170 E175 CRJ2 CRJ7 CRJ9
 
User avatar
American 767
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Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:55 pm

Swadian wrote:
Did AA make a mistake by ordering the 38M and putting a terrible configuration in them instead of keeping the 75Ws and refurbishing them to 75L? AA is losing premium revenue and high on debt. Perhaps they could've waited on more A321neos instead of retiring the 75Ws so early. DL seems to do well with their 752s.


I agree. Ordering the 737-MAX was a mistake. They should not have bought it. I haven't flown on the MAX, so I can't really judge, but from what I have heard from other posters on a.net it is not a very pleasant aircraft to fly on. They should have added more A321NEOS on their order book and kept more 757s to be configured to International standards, fly them on TATL routes for a few more years. If they had kept more 757s, JFK-CDG would still see it at least 1x daily.And maybe BOS-CDG would not have been cut.
Oh well, if they didn't order the MAX there would have been a lot o posts like:"Why didn't AA order the 737-MAX?" or "Will AA ever order the 737-MAX?". There would have been tons of questions like these, repeatedly.
Ben Soriano
 
sagechan
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Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:07 pm

Swadian wrote:
Did AA make a mistake by ordering the 38M and putting a terrible configuration in them instead of keeping the 75Ws and refurbishing them to 75L? AA is losing premium revenue and high on debt. Perhaps they could've waited on more A321neos instead of retiring the 75Ws so early. DL seems to do well with their 752s.

It's more of the configuration issue thouth the lavs may still be a problem. Even though they are simplifying the fleets it seems AA will need yet another A321neo sub fleet for international ops to South America (or LRs for that and Europe) with proper international biz seats.
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Qantas59
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Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:10 pm

The 777-223ER site mentioned shows 11 Business Class 45 seat configurations remaining. There are actually 2 (7BG and 7BU). Is there any other way of tracking Zodiac seats? Cheers.
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MSPNWA
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Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:25 pm

Swadian wrote:
Did AA make a mistake by ordering the 38M and putting a terrible configuration in them instead of keeping the 75Ws and refurbishing them to 75L? AA is losing premium revenue and high on debt. Perhaps they could've waited on more A321neos instead of retiring the 75Ws so early. DL seems to do well with their 752s.


Short answer: No. Long answer: No.

AA's 737 Max 8 is a virtual industry-standard configuration (only negative change is Y+ is down to 33" pitch). There's nothing "terrible" about it compared to similarly configured aircraft from its legacy competitors. It's not a roomy configuration, but there's nothing unique about it either. And it certainly isn't a source of any revenue issues with so few in service.
 
miaami
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Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:37 pm

I believe this is the 2nd A-319 from Frontier that will be entering the AA fleet

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N92 ... /KTPA/KGYR
 
Austin787
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Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:47 pm

American 767 wrote:
Swadian wrote:
Did AA make a mistake by ordering the 38M and putting a terrible configuration in them instead of keeping the 75Ws and refurbishing them to 75L? AA is losing premium revenue and high on debt. Perhaps they could've waited on more A321neos instead of retiring the 75Ws so early. DL seems to do well with their 752s.


I agree. Ordering the 737-MAX was a mistake. They should not have bought it. I haven't flown on the MAX, so I can't really judge, but from what I have heard from other posters on a.net it is not a very pleasant aircraft to fly on. They should have added more A321NEOS on their order book and kept more 757s to be configured to International standards, fly them on TATL routes for a few more years. If they had kept more 757s, JFK-CDG would still see it at least 1x daily.And maybe BOS-CDG would not have been cut.
Oh well, if they didn't order the MAX there would have been a lot o posts like:"Why didn't AA order the 737-MAX?" or "Will AA ever order the 737-MAX?". There would have been tons of questions like these, repeatedly.

Ordering the 737 MAX was not a mistake. Rather, the mistake was AA's configuration which makes it unpleasant to fly. Had AA configured the 737-MAX the same as its existing 737-NG, it wouldn't be an issue.
 
Sancho99504
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Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:01 pm

Detroit313 wrote:
slowrambler wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
Now that flight attendant integration has taken place they need to use the not as nice 321 planes for short routes. No more transcons on those please. Move planes around! No excuse to see brand new ones doing 45 minute flights from DFW to Austin 6 times a day and not PHL to SFO for example.

I know they will all look the same by 2021, but at the moment they don't so put the right planes on the right routes.

Any info on that?


I don't think they'll bother. When you get a 738, it could be any 738; they don't keep the "not so nice" ones on short routes.


Well, here we are not talking about just nice or not so nice. No matter what 737 you get, it is going to have power ports.

We are talking about the fact that PHL and CLT to the west coast 321 has no power ports while DFW to Austin and San Antonio does.

They need to hurry up with the retrofits if they can't move planes around.

I just flew a legacy US A321, one from before the merger with HP. It still had the big, plush leather seats in F. Same plane took ne from MCO-DFW-SEA. I flew on a 738 LAX-MCO a couple days before that and the difference was more than noteworthy. Sure, I had a 12" IFE screen and USB plus 110V power, but passing over Lake Powell, my ass was numb. Didn't have that problem in the A321.....

The Legacy US A320s and A321s are still 32" in coach... rest of the fleet is 30-30.5"......
kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
 
Sancho99504
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Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:50 pm

Narfish641 wrote:
American 767 wrote:
Narfish641 wrote:

Was I the only one that thought leleko747 would pop up and correct him? Lol jokes aside, as much as I love these new Dreamliners which I hope to fly soon, the seating arrangement isn't gonna be as best as the 767. Not mentioning the windows being controlled by the flight attendants.


What? The windows controlled by a Flight Attendant? I haven't been on a 787 yet. But from what I have heard, you can dim your window yourself.
Does that mean with American you can't do it yourself?


For some airlines they automatically dim them, but I am not sure about American.

They definitely do. I spent a whole day trying to keep the window bright enough that I could look out and take pictures over Greenland and everything else..
kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
 
Swadian
Posts: 539
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Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:38 am

MLIAA wrote:
The MAX8 would be fine if they put a decent configuration in it. If they packed people up to the gills of the 757 it would still be a crappy product.


Yes, but isn't DL making more profits with 199-seat 752s than AA is with their large orders for both 738MAX and A321neo? DL is also retiring 752, but not nearly as much or as fast as AA, and rather than replacing 752 with A321s, AA downsized many 752 routes to 738.

MSPNWA wrote:
Swadian wrote:
Did AA make a mistake by ordering the 38M and putting a terrible configuration in them instead of keeping the 75Ws and refurbishing them to 75L? AA is losing premium revenue and high on debt. Perhaps they could've waited on more A321neos instead of retiring the 75Ws so early. DL seems to do well with their 752s.


Short answer: No. Long answer: No.

AA's 737 Max 8 is a virtual industry-standard configuration (only negative change is Y+ is down to 33" pitch). There's nothing "terrible" about it compared to similarly configured aircraft from its legacy competitors. It's not a roomy configuration, but there's nothing unique about it either. And it certainly isn't a source of any revenue issues with so few in service.


OK, maybe I shouldn't have used the word "terrible", but what about AA's poor recent financial performance compared to Delta? Delta has a ton of 752, including a lot of 752 flying international and premium domestic, while AA is forcing elites into 738 transcons including red-eyes without lie-flat seats. Surely a 75L with lie-flat seats can generate more revenue on JFK-SEA or MIA-SFO than 738 or A321S?

Look at AA trying to build their Atlantic hub at PHL but not offering a decent premium product on most transcons to PHL.

sagechan wrote:
Swadian wrote:
Did AA make a mistake by ordering the 38M and putting a terrible configuration in them instead of keeping the 75Ws and refurbishing them to 75L? AA is losing premium revenue and high on debt. Perhaps they could've waited on more A321neos instead of retiring the 75Ws so early. DL seems to do well with their 752s.

It's more of the configuration issue thouth the lavs may still be a problem. Even though they are simplifying the fleets it seems AA will need yet another A321neo sub fleet for international ops to South America (or LRs for that and Europe) with proper international biz seats.


Configuration aside, if they really wanted to simply the fleet, why didn't they convert more LAA 75W to 75L, retire the LUS 752s earlier, not order the 738MAX, and wait for more A321neo? AA got rid of many relatively new 752 like 5FN while keeping older ones like 5DK and 5DJ. They could've kept every 752 from 5DJ onward and replaced the LUS 752s with them. They can still put Oasis in the 738 without spending billions ordering the 38M.
 
1989worstyear
Posts: 640
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Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:16 am

Swadian wrote:
MLIAA wrote:
The MAX8 would be fine if they put a decent configuration in it. If they packed people up to the gills of the 757 it would still be a crappy product.


Yes, but isn't DL making more profits with 199-seat 752s than AA is with their large orders for both 738MAX and A321neo? DL is also retiring 752, but not nearly as much or as fast as AA, and rather than replacing 752 with A321s, AA downsized many 752 routes to 738.

MSPNWA wrote:
Swadian wrote:
Did AA make a mistake by ordering the 38M and putting a terrible configuration in them instead of keeping the 75Ws and refurbishing them to 75L? AA is losing premium revenue and high on debt. Perhaps they could've waited on more A321neos instead of retiring the 75Ws so early. DL seems to do well with their 752s.


Short answer: No. Long answer: No.

AA's 737 Max 8 is a virtual industry-standard configuration (only negative change is Y+ is down to 33" pitch). There's nothing "terrible" about it compared to similarly configured aircraft from its legacy competitors. It's not a roomy configuration, but there's nothing unique about it either. And it certainly isn't a source of any revenue issues with so few in service.


OK, maybe I shouldn't have used the word "terrible", but what about AA's poor recent financial performance compared to Delta? Delta has a ton of 752, including a lot of 752 flying international and premium domestic, while AA is forcing elites into 738 transcons including red-eyes without lie-flat seats. Surely a 75L with lie-flat seats can generate more revenue on JFK-SEA or MIA-SFO than 738 or A321S?

Look at AA trying to build their Atlantic hub at PHL but not offering a decent premium product on most transcons to PHL.

sagechan wrote:
Swadian wrote:
Did AA make a mistake by ordering the 38M and putting a terrible configuration in them instead of keeping the 75Ws and refurbishing them to 75L? AA is losing premium revenue and high on debt. Perhaps they could've waited on more A321neos instead of retiring the 75Ws so early. DL seems to do well with their 752s.

It's more of the configuration issue thouth the lavs may still be a problem. Even though they are simplifying the fleets it seems AA will need yet another A321neo sub fleet for international ops to South America (or LRs for that and Europe) with proper international biz seats.


Configuration aside, if they really wanted to simply the fleet, why didn't they convert more LAA 75W to 75L, retire the LUS 752s earlier, not order the 738MAX, and wait for more A321neo? AA got rid of many relatively new 752 like 5FN while keeping older ones like 5DK and 5DJ. They could've kept every 752 from 5DJ onward and replaced the LUS 752s with them. They can still put Oasis in the 738 without spending billions ordering the 38M.


The 757 isn't even remotely modern though - just look at its systems and compare it to a 738, for example.
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
Sydscott
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Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:11 am

Swadian wrote:

OK, maybe I shouldn't have used the word "terrible", but what about AA's poor recent financial performance compared to Delta? Delta has a ton of 752, including a lot of 752 flying international and premium domestic, while AA is forcing elites into 738 transcons including red-eyes without lie-flat seats. Surely a 75L with lie-flat seats can generate more revenue on JFK-SEA or MIA-SFO than 738 or A321S?

Look at AA trying to build their Atlantic hub at PHL but not offering a decent premium product on most transcons to PHL.


The mistake I think AA is making with the A321NEO is not having a subfleet with lie flat business seats in. So an A321T without the first product and more economy class seating. They could use that for both transons and for Trans-Atlantic Service which allows for the complete retirement of the 757 which would make them much more competitive with Jetblue and Delta.

In relation to the 777-200ER with the backwards facing seats, I did JFK-EZE in a backwards facing seat. While I didn't mind it being backwards facing the seat itself was terribly narrow and not at all comfortable while the pillow and blankets were some of the best I've ever had in business class anywhere. So that entire seat needs to go and be replaced with something more comfortable.
 
xdlx
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Re: New AA painted aircraft - 2017

Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:58 pm

Swadian wrote:
alasizon wrote:
Sooner787 wrote:

I think AA keeps the A332's for the missions you mentioned, but the A333's are gone cause of their P&W engines,
They're orphans in AA's vast fleet


Long term, sure. However, AA isn't taking enough 787s by 2019 to free up the 332s & 333s from their current missions.


I respectfully disagree. The A333 will likely leave in 2019 as planned with AA moving more A332 and domestic widebody slack to cover its routes. AA doesn't like deploying widebodies on domestic routes (compared to UA / DL) and they will have plenty of A321 coming in. DFW-Hawaii is already going all-77E, so the 763 is on the way out as well. The 752 will probably outlast both the 763 and A333.


_statement "AA doesn't like deploying widebodies on domestic routes" When they had the A300/DC10 Fleet widebodies where frequent in Domestic Routes.
the beancounters drive this change since RASM is better in a A321 than it ever was in the A300.
 
alasizon
Topic Author
Posts: 1947
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Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:32 pm

Swadian wrote:
Yes, but isn't DL making more profits with 199-seat 752s than AA is with their large orders for both 738MAX and A321neo? DL is also retiring 752, but not nearly as much or as fast as AA, and rather than replacing 752 with A321s, AA downsized many 752 routes to 738.

OK, maybe I shouldn't have used the word "terrible", but what about AA's poor recent financial performance compared to Delta? Delta has a ton of 752, including a lot of 752 flying international and premium domestic, while AA is forcing elites into 738 transcons including red-eyes without lie-flat seats. Surely a 75L with lie-flat seats can generate more revenue on JFK-SEA or MIA-SFO than 738 or A321S?

Look at AA trying to build their Atlantic hub at PHL but not offering a decent premium product on most transcons to PHL.

Configuration aside, if they really wanted to simply the fleet, why didn't they convert more LAA 75W to 75L, retire the LUS 752s earlier, not order the 738MAX, and wait for more A321neo? AA got rid of many relatively new 752 like 5FN while keeping older ones like 5DK and 5DJ. They could've kept every 752 from 5DJ onward and replaced the LUS 752s with them. They can still put Oasis in the 738 without spending billions ordering the 38M.


Correlation does not equal causation. Just because DL has more 757s does not mean that is why they are more profitable than AA.

A 75L with lie-flats is going to offer 176 seats on MIA-SFO as opposed to 181 on a 321S. Passengers aren't going to pay for a premium for lie flat on SFO-MIA (maybe $50 more but that might be about it). So you've basically sold the same number of J class seats, less Y seats, used an older aircraft prone to more MX problems, used an aircraft with a higher CASM and also limited the ability for an aircraft swap should something go awry.

As far as ordering the 38M, that has near zilch to do with retiring the 757s. The 38M is going to end up replacing the older 738s from the early 2000s as they come up on their second lease cycle as well as replacing the last of the MD-80s plus a bit of growth. The choice to use the 38M for some of the 757 routes out of MIA is a business choice, its likely more profitable since the majority of traffic on the routes are in coach and the loss in F capacity is likely about the same as the number of upgrades each flight was seeing.

The reason the LUS 757s were kept for the domestic PHX flights is the decision was made prior to a joint pilot contract or joint MX contract so you needed to have LUS pilots flying those routes and they simply had less cycles than some the AA 75W planes and keeping the old HP birds wasn't an option. Because each of these aircraft requires an ETOPS check prior to going to Hawaii, you need to have LUS mechanics in PHX completing those (as they are trained to do so). Also, these birds are going to be gone by end of 2020 as they are replaced with 321NEOs.

I love the 757 as an aircraft but the reality is that for the majority of them, their time has come and gone. If they were about 5 years newer, it'd likely be a totally different ballgame. AA has shown that they intend to move forward with a newer fleet and not refurbish the older ones which is the opposite of what DL has shown. But that does not make that choice alone responsible for the difference in revenue and profit performance.
Manager on Duty & Tower Planner
 
UpNAWAy
Posts: 528
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:42 pm

Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:50 pm

The differences between DL and AA financial right now are easily explainable. The Debt difference is the newsiest fleet vs the oldest fleet. Nothing more (Oh maybe a small bit the merger timing difference too). In 10 years the debt positions will be almost completely flipped flopped and any AA boasting of how bad DL is managed will be equally pointless.
On the revenue side AA's biggest problem is South America exposure (that's cyclical as usual) and DL has another revenue advantage and that is that such a high % of their flights touch ATL. AA's is spread out much more over many more cities as the build up DFW towards a 1000 flights a day you will see that shrink too.
 
alasizon
Topic Author
Posts: 1947
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:10 pm

UpNAWAy wrote:
AA's is spread out much more over many more cities as the build up DFW towards a 1000 flights a day you will see that shrink too.


This piece is the only part I disagree with. I think AA's approach to building DFW will include many more flights touching other cities as the adds will require increased utilization and the open markets from DFW that can support the additions are at a lot of stage lengths that don't support the bank schedule without long turn times (wasting aircraft time). I expect you'll see a lot of Regional flying flowing through PHX & ORD while more Mainline flying flows through CLT, PHL & MIA.
Manager on Duty & Tower Planner
 
Swadian
Posts: 539
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 4:56 am

Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:41 pm

alasizon wrote:
Swadian wrote:
Yes, but isn't DL making more profits with 199-seat 752s than AA is with their large orders for both 738MAX and A321neo? DL is also retiring 752, but not nearly as much or as fast as AA, and rather than replacing 752 with A321s, AA downsized many 752 routes to 738.

OK, maybe I shouldn't have used the word "terrible", but what about AA's poor recent financial performance compared to Delta? Delta has a ton of 752, including a lot of 752 flying international and premium domestic, while AA is forcing elites into 738 transcons including red-eyes without lie-flat seats. Surely a 75L with lie-flat seats can generate more revenue on JFK-SEA or MIA-SFO than 738 or A321S?

Look at AA trying to build their Atlantic hub at PHL but not offering a decent premium product on most transcons to PHL.

Configuration aside, if they really wanted to simply the fleet, why didn't they convert more LAA 75W to 75L, retire the LUS 752s earlier, not order the 738MAX, and wait for more A321neo? AA got rid of many relatively new 752 like 5FN while keeping older ones like 5DK and 5DJ. They could've kept every 752 from 5DJ onward and replaced the LUS 752s with them. They can still put Oasis in the 738 without spending billions ordering the 38M.


Correlation does not equal causation. Just because DL has more 757s does not mean that is why they are more profitable than AA.

A 75L with lie-flats is going to offer 176 seats on MIA-SFO as opposed to 181 on a 321S. Passengers aren't going to pay for a premium for lie flat on SFO-MIA (maybe $50 more but that might be about it). So you've basically sold the same number of J class seats, less Y seats, used an older aircraft prone to more MX problems, used an aircraft with a higher CASM and also limited the ability for an aircraft swap should something go awry.

As far as ordering the 38M, that has near zilch to do with retiring the 757s. The 38M is going to end up replacing the older 738s from the early 2000s as they come up on their second lease cycle as well as replacing the last of the MD-80s plus a bit of growth. The choice to use the 38M for some of the 757 routes out of MIA is a business choice, its likely more profitable since the majority of traffic on the routes are in coach and the loss in F capacity is likely about the same as the number of upgrades each flight was seeing.

The reason the LUS 757s were kept for the domestic PHX flights is the decision was made prior to a joint pilot contract or joint MX contract so you needed to have LUS pilots flying those routes and they simply had less cycles than some the AA 75W planes and keeping the old HP birds wasn't an option. Because each of these aircraft requires an ETOPS check prior to going to Hawaii, you need to have LUS mechanics in PHX completing those (as they are trained to do so). Also, these birds are going to be gone by end of 2020 as they are replaced with 321NEOs.

I love the 757 as an aircraft but the reality is that for the majority of them, their time has come and gone. If they were about 5 years newer, it'd likely be a totally different ballgame. AA has shown that they intend to move forward with a newer fleet and not refurbish the older ones which is the opposite of what DL has shown. But that does not make that choice alone responsible for the difference in revenue and profit performance.


You missed my point.

I didn't say DL was more profitable solely because of having more 752s compared to A321 or 738, but rather that AA can't compete with DL and B6 because they're flying 738s where DL / B6 are flying 752 / A321 with lie-flat seats. AA may have to undercut DL / B6 to get premium traffic or risk losing that traffic, therefore diluting revenue. For example, AA is using a 738 (or possibly 38M in the future) on JFK-SEA while DL is using 752 and B6 is using A321. AA formerly used 752 on JFK-SEA, but replaced it with a 738 as the 752 fleet dwindled and the 738 fleet expanded.

I didn't suggest AA keep the 752 like DL, but rather that AA replace the 752 with A321neo. Since the A321neo orders aren't getting delivered yet, AA could have kept some more 752 until said A321neo orders are delivered, and then replace the 752 with them. Even without lie-flat seats, an A321 can generate more revenue at lower CASM than a 738 without losing capacity compared to 752. Look at all those 738s at ORD; AA could probably increase revenue by putting more 752 or A321 at ORD instead of 738.

Didn't AA put a 777 back on MIA-LAX to increase revenue?
 
jbs2886
Posts: 2147
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:51 pm

Swadian wrote:
alasizon wrote:
Swadian wrote:
Yes, but isn't DL making more profits with 199-seat 752s than AA is with their large orders for both 738MAX and A321neo? DL is also retiring 752, but not nearly as much or as fast as AA, and rather than replacing 752 with A321s, AA downsized many 752 routes to 738.

OK, maybe I shouldn't have used the word "terrible", but what about AA's poor recent financial performance compared to Delta? Delta has a ton of 752, including a lot of 752 flying international and premium domestic, while AA is forcing elites into 738 transcons including red-eyes without lie-flat seats. Surely a 75L with lie-flat seats can generate more revenue on JFK-SEA or MIA-SFO than 738 or A321S?

Look at AA trying to build their Atlantic hub at PHL but not offering a decent premium product on most transcons to PHL.

Configuration aside, if they really wanted to simply the fleet, why didn't they convert more LAA 75W to 75L, retire the LUS 752s earlier, not order the 738MAX, and wait for more A321neo? AA got rid of many relatively new 752 like 5FN while keeping older ones like 5DK and 5DJ. They could've kept every 752 from 5DJ onward and replaced the LUS 752s with them. They can still put Oasis in the 738 without spending billions ordering the 38M.


Correlation does not equal causation. Just because DL has more 757s does not mean that is why they are more profitable than AA.

A 75L with lie-flats is going to offer 176 seats on MIA-SFO as opposed to 181 on a 321S. Passengers aren't going to pay for a premium for lie flat on SFO-MIA (maybe $50 more but that might be about it). So you've basically sold the same number of J class seats, less Y seats, used an older aircraft prone to more MX problems, used an aircraft with a higher CASM and also limited the ability for an aircraft swap should something go awry.

As far as ordering the 38M, that has near zilch to do with retiring the 757s. The 38M is going to end up replacing the older 738s from the early 2000s as they come up on their second lease cycle as well as replacing the last of the MD-80s plus a bit of growth. The choice to use the 38M for some of the 757 routes out of MIA is a business choice, its likely more profitable since the majority of traffic on the routes are in coach and the loss in F capacity is likely about the same as the number of upgrades each flight was seeing.

The reason the LUS 757s were kept for the domestic PHX flights is the decision was made prior to a joint pilot contract or joint MX contract so you needed to have LUS pilots flying those routes and they simply had less cycles than some the AA 75W planes and keeping the old HP birds wasn't an option. Because each of these aircraft requires an ETOPS check prior to going to Hawaii, you need to have LUS mechanics in PHX completing those (as they are trained to do so). Also, these birds are going to be gone by end of 2020 as they are replaced with 321NEOs.

I love the 757 as an aircraft but the reality is that for the majority of them, their time has come and gone. If they were about 5 years newer, it'd likely be a totally different ballgame. AA has shown that they intend to move forward with a newer fleet and not refurbish the older ones which is the opposite of what DL has shown. But that does not make that choice alone responsible for the difference in revenue and profit performance.


You missed my point.

I didn't say DL was more profitable solely because of having more 752s compared to A321 or 738, but rather that AA can't compete with DL and B6 because they're flying 738s where DL / B6 are flying 752 / A321 with lie-flat seats. AA may have to undercut DL / B6 to get premium traffic or risk losing that traffic, therefore diluting revenue. For example, AA is using a 738 (or possibly 38M in the future) on JFK-SEA while DL is using 752 and B6 is using A321. AA formerly used 752 on JFK-SEA, but replaced it with a 738 as the 752 fleet dwindled and the 738 fleet expanded.

I didn't suggest AA keep the 752 like DL, but rather that AA replace the 752 with A321neo. Since the A321neo orders aren't getting delivered yet, AA could have kept some more 752 until said A321neo orders are delivered, and then replace the 752 with them. Even without lie-flat seats, an A321 can generate more revenue at lower CASM than a 738 without losing capacity compared to 752. Look at all those 738s at ORD; AA could probably increase revenue by putting more 752 or A321 at ORD instead of 738.

Didn't AA put a 777 back on MIA-LAX to increase revenue?


A few critiques:

1) DL isn't exclusively flying Delta One on JFK-SEA. Moreover, its one route. Your entire paragraph is really only applicable to a handful of routes that won't move the needle that much on profit for massive airlines.

2) Why keep the 757s? Perhaps they were less reliable or coming up for costly maintenance? Those two things, alone, could outweigh any capacity decrease or revenue premium decline compared to a 737. Frankly, if AA felt they needed to compete for those customers, they could have added an A321T to the route....the fact that they didn't speaks volumes.

3) A lot of your assumptions are basically, if you put a bigger plane on the route you make more money. And, if you have better premium seats you have a higher revenue premium. Both are not always true. Flying larger planes is typically more costly and if you aren't filling the seats at appropriate prices, you lose money. If not, why aren't we all flying A380s everywhere?!
 
Detroit313
Posts: 253
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:59 pm

Swadian wrote:
alasizon wrote:
Swadian wrote:
Yes, but isn't DL making more profits with 199-seat 752s than AA is with their large orders for both 738MAX and A321neo? DL is also retiring 752, but not nearly as much or as fast as AA, and rather than replacing 752 with A321s, AA downsized many 752 routes to 738.

OK, maybe I shouldn't have used the word "terrible", but what about AA's poor recent financial performance compared to Delta? Delta has a ton of 752, including a lot of 752 flying international and premium domestic, while AA is forcing elites into 738 transcons including red-eyes without lie-flat seats. Surely a 75L with lie-flat seats can generate more revenue on JFK-SEA or MIA-SFO than 738 or A321S?

Look at AA trying to build their Atlantic hub at PHL but not offering a decent premium product on most transcons to PHL.

Configuration aside, if they really wanted to simply the fleet, why didn't they convert more LAA 75W to 75L, retire the LUS 752s earlier, not order the 738MAX, and wait for more A321neo? AA got rid of many relatively new 752 like 5FN while keeping older ones like 5DK and 5DJ. They could've kept every 752 from 5DJ onward and replaced the LUS 752s with them. They can still put Oasis in the 738 without spending billions ordering the 38M.


Correlation does not equal causation. Just because DL has more 757s does not mean that is why they are more profitable than AA.

A 75L with lie-flats is going to offer 176 seats on MIA-SFO as opposed to 181 on a 321S. Passengers aren't going to pay for a premium for lie flat on SFO-MIA (maybe $50 more but that might be about it). So you've basically sold the same number of J class seats, less Y seats, used an older aircraft prone to more MX problems, used an aircraft with a higher CASM and also limited the ability for an aircraft swap should something go awry.

As far as ordering the 38M, that has near zilch to do with retiring the 757s. The 38M is going to end up replacing the older 738s from the early 2000s as they come up on their second lease cycle as well as replacing the last of the MD-80s plus a bit of growth. The choice to use the 38M for some of the 757 routes out of MIA is a business choice, its likely more profitable since the majority of traffic on the routes are in coach and the loss in F capacity is likely about the same as the number of upgrades each flight was seeing.

The reason the LUS 757s were kept for the domestic PHX flights is the decision was made prior to a joint pilot contract or joint MX contract so you needed to have LUS pilots flying those routes and they simply had less cycles than some the AA 75W planes and keeping the old HP birds wasn't an option. Because each of these aircraft requires an ETOPS check prior to going to Hawaii, you need to have LUS mechanics in PHX completing those (as they are trained to do so). Also, these birds are going to be gone by end of 2020 as they are replaced with 321NEOs.

I love the 757 as an aircraft but the reality is that for the majority of them, their time has come and gone. If they were about 5 years newer, it'd likely be a totally different ballgame. AA has shown that they intend to move forward with a newer fleet and not refurbish the older ones which is the opposite of what DL has shown. But that does not make that choice alone responsible for the difference in revenue and profit performance.


You missed my point.

I didn't say DL was more profitable solely because of having more 752s compared to A321 or 738, but rather that AA can't compete with DL and B6 because they're flying 738s where DL / B6 are flying 752 / A321 with lie-flat seats. AA may have to undercut DL / B6 to get premium traffic or risk losing that traffic, therefore diluting revenue. For example, AA is using a 738 (or possibly 38M in the future) on JFK-SEA while DL is using 752 and B6 is using A321. AA formerly used 752 on JFK-SEA, but replaced it with a 738 as the 752 fleet dwindled and the 738 fleet expanded.

I didn't suggest AA keep the 752 like DL, but rather that AA replace the 752 with A321neo. Since the A321neo orders aren't getting delivered yet, AA could have kept some more 752 until said A321neo orders are delivered, and then replace the 752 with them. Even without lie-flat seats, an A321 can generate more revenue at lower CASM than a 738 without losing capacity compared to 752. Look at all those 738s at ORD; AA could probably increase revenue by putting more 752 or A321 at ORD instead of 738.

Didn't AA put a 777 back on MIA-LAX to increase revenue?


Laughable post. On the most popular transcons like NYC to LA and SFO, AA flies 3 class 321T with first, business and coach that business people love whereas DL uses a lot of old 757a and 767s to do those. Not having 757s that consume so much fuel is a good thing. It is an old plane.

All the business people that fly between LAX and SFO to NYC know that they get true first class only on AA. They would pick that anytime instead of an old 757 or 767.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 2147
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:19 pm

Detroit313 wrote:
Swadian wrote:
alasizon wrote:

Correlation does not equal causation. Just because DL has more 757s does not mean that is why they are more profitable than AA.

A 75L with lie-flats is going to offer 176 seats on MIA-SFO as opposed to 181 on a 321S. Passengers aren't going to pay for a premium for lie flat on SFO-MIA (maybe $50 more but that might be about it). So you've basically sold the same number of J class seats, less Y seats, used an older aircraft prone to more MX problems, used an aircraft with a higher CASM and also limited the ability for an aircraft swap should something go awry.

As far as ordering the 38M, that has near zilch to do with retiring the 757s. The 38M is going to end up replacing the older 738s from the early 2000s as they come up on their second lease cycle as well as replacing the last of the MD-80s plus a bit of growth. The choice to use the 38M for some of the 757 routes out of MIA is a business choice, its likely more profitable since the majority of traffic on the routes are in coach and the loss in F capacity is likely about the same as the number of upgrades each flight was seeing.

The reason the LUS 757s were kept for the domestic PHX flights is the decision was made prior to a joint pilot contract or joint MX contract so you needed to have LUS pilots flying those routes and they simply had less cycles than some the AA 75W planes and keeping the old HP birds wasn't an option. Because each of these aircraft requires an ETOPS check prior to going to Hawaii, you need to have LUS mechanics in PHX completing those (as they are trained to do so). Also, these birds are going to be gone by end of 2020 as they are replaced with 321NEOs.

I love the 757 as an aircraft but the reality is that for the majority of them, their time has come and gone. If they were about 5 years newer, it'd likely be a totally different ballgame. AA has shown that they intend to move forward with a newer fleet and not refurbish the older ones which is the opposite of what DL has shown. But that does not make that choice alone responsible for the difference in revenue and profit performance.


You missed my point.

I didn't say DL was more profitable solely because of having more 752s compared to A321 or 738, but rather that AA can't compete with DL and B6 because they're flying 738s where DL / B6 are flying 752 / A321 with lie-flat seats. AA may have to undercut DL / B6 to get premium traffic or risk losing that traffic, therefore diluting revenue. For example, AA is using a 738 (or possibly 38M in the future) on JFK-SEA while DL is using 752 and B6 is using A321. AA formerly used 752 on JFK-SEA, but replaced it with a 738 as the 752 fleet dwindled and the 738 fleet expanded.

I didn't suggest AA keep the 752 like DL, but rather that AA replace the 752 with A321neo. Since the A321neo orders aren't getting delivered yet, AA could have kept some more 752 until said A321neo orders are delivered, and then replace the 752 with them. Even without lie-flat seats, an A321 can generate more revenue at lower CASM than a 738 without losing capacity compared to 752. Look at all those 738s at ORD; AA could probably increase revenue by putting more 752 or A321 at ORD instead of 738.

Didn't AA put a 777 back on MIA-LAX to increase revenue?


Laughable post. On the most popular transcons like NYC to LA and SFO, AA flies 3 class 321T with first, business and coach that business people love whereas DL uses a lot of old 757a and 767s to do those. Not having 757s that consume so much fuel is a good thing. It is an old plane.

All the business people that fly between LAX and SFO to NYC know that they get true first class only on AA. They would pick that anytime instead of an old 757 or 767.


Frankly, this post is as laughable as his. You're saying you only get first class on A321Ts on AA and DL flies "old" 757s and 767s. However, you ignore that DL has DL One on those flights (i.e., first - and no, the A321T first is not leaps and bounds above Delta One). Frankly, the argument that "old" planes are worse is tiresome, you can refurb an aircraft (in fact, I just had a Delta One equipped 757 on SEA-JFK and it was beautiful on the inside because of Delta's refurbishment).
 
Detroit313
Posts: 253
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:51 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
Swadian wrote:

You missed my point.

I didn't say DL was more profitable solely because of having more 752s compared to A321 or 738, but rather that AA can't compete with DL and B6 because they're flying 738s where DL / B6 are flying 752 / A321 with lie-flat seats. AA may have to undercut DL / B6 to get premium traffic or risk losing that traffic, therefore diluting revenue. For example, AA is using a 738 (or possibly 38M in the future) on JFK-SEA while DL is using 752 and B6 is using A321. AA formerly used 752 on JFK-SEA, but replaced it with a 738 as the 752 fleet dwindled and the 738 fleet expanded.

I didn't suggest AA keep the 752 like DL, but rather that AA replace the 752 with A321neo. Since the A321neo orders aren't getting delivered yet, AA could have kept some more 752 until said A321neo orders are delivered, and then replace the 752 with them. Even without lie-flat seats, an A321 can generate more revenue at lower CASM than a 738 without losing capacity compared to 752. Look at all those 738s at ORD; AA could probably increase revenue by putting more 752 or A321 at ORD instead of 738.

Didn't AA put a 777 back on MIA-LAX to increase revenue?


Laughable post. On the most popular transcons like NYC to LA and SFO, AA flies 3 class 321T with first, business and coach that business people love whereas DL uses a lot of old 757a and 767s to do those. Not having 757s that consume so much fuel is a good thing. It is an old plane.

All the business people that fly between LAX and SFO to NYC know that they get true first class only on AA. They would pick that anytime instead of an old 757 or 767.


Frankly, this post is as laughable as his. You're saying you only get first class on A321Ts on AA and DL flies "old" 757s and 767s. However, you ignore that DL has DL One on those flights (i.e., first - and no, the A321T first is not leaps and bounds above Delta One). Frankly, the argument that "old" planes are worse is tiresome, you can refurb an aircraft (in fact, I just had a Delta One equipped 757 on SEA-JFK and it was beautiful on the inside because of Delta's refurbishment).


I don't know about that. I'd rather fly a new 3-class 321T than a 25 year old 757 no matter how refurbished it is.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 2147
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:26 am

Detroit313 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:

Laughable post. On the most popular transcons like NYC to LA and SFO, AA flies 3 class 321T with first, business and coach that business people love whereas DL uses a lot of old 757a and 767s to do those. Not having 757s that consume so much fuel is a good thing. It is an old plane.

All the business people that fly between LAX and SFO to NYC know that they get true first class only on AA. They would pick that anytime instead of an old 757 or 767.


Frankly, this post is as laughable as his. You're saying you only get first class on A321Ts on AA and DL flies "old" 757s and 767s. However, you ignore that DL has DL One on those flights (i.e., first - and no, the A321T first is not leaps and bounds above Delta One). Frankly, the argument that "old" planes are worse is tiresome, you can refurb an aircraft (in fact, I just had a Delta One equipped 757 on SEA-JFK and it was beautiful on the inside because of Delta's refurbishment).


I don't know about that. I'd rather fly a new 3-class 321T than a 25 year old 757 no matter how refurbished it is.


You very well could be in an older seat and interior on a 321T than a completely refurbished 757. Either way, point being, its not some clear winner for the 321T for everyone, maybe a small subset.
 
asuflyer
Posts: 440
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 12:48 pm

Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:47 am

Detroit313 wrote:
Swadian wrote:
alasizon wrote:

Correlation does not equal causation. Just because DL has more 757s does not mean that is why they are more profitable than AA.

A 75L with lie-flats is going to offer 176 seats on MIA-SFO as opposed to 181 on a 321S. Passengers aren't going to pay for a premium for lie flat on SFO-MIA (maybe $50 more but that might be about it). So you've basically sold the same number of J class seats, less Y seats, used an older aircraft prone to more MX problems, used an aircraft with a higher CASM and also limited the ability for an aircraft swap should something go awry.

As far as ordering the 38M, that has near zilch to do with retiring the 757s. The 38M is going to end up replacing the older 738s from the early 2000s as they come up on their second lease cycle as well as replacing the last of the MD-80s plus a bit of growth. The choice to use the 38M for some of the 757 routes out of MIA is a business choice, its likely more profitable since the majority of traffic on the routes are in coach and the loss in F capacity is likely about the same as the number of upgrades each flight was seeing.

The reason the LUS 757s were kept for the domestic PHX flights is the decision was made prior to a joint pilot contract or joint MX contract so you needed to have LUS pilots flying those routes and they simply had less cycles than some the AA 75W planes and keeping the old HP birds wasn't an option. Because each of these aircraft requires an ETOPS check prior to going to Hawaii, you need to have LUS mechanics in PHX completing those (as they are trained to do so). Also, these birds are going to be gone by end of 2020 as they are replaced with 321NEOs.

I love the 757 as an aircraft but the reality is that for the majority of them, their time has come and gone. If they were about 5 years newer, it'd likely be a totally different ballgame. AA has shown that they intend to move forward with a newer fleet and not refurbish the older ones which is the opposite of what DL has shown. But that does not make that choice alone responsible for the difference in revenue and profit performance.


You missed my point.

I didn't say DL was more profitable solely because of having more 752s compared to A321 or 738, but rather that AA can't compete with DL and B6 because they're flying 738s where DL / B6 are flying 752 / A321 with lie-flat seats. AA may have to undercut DL / B6 to get premium traffic or risk losing that traffic, therefore diluting revenue. For example, AA is using a 738 (or possibly 38M in the future) on JFK-SEA while DL is using 752 and B6 is using A321. AA formerly used 752 on JFK-SEA, but replaced it with a 738 as the 752 fleet dwindled and the 738 fleet expanded.

I didn't suggest AA keep the 752 like DL, but rather that AA replace the 752 with A321neo. Since the A321neo orders aren't getting delivered yet, AA could have kept some more 752 until said A321neo orders are delivered, and then replace the 752 with them. Even without lie-flat seats, an A321 can generate more revenue at lower CASM than a 738 without losing capacity compared to 752. Look at all those 738s at ORD; AA could probably increase revenue by putting more 752 or A321 at ORD instead of 738.

Didn't AA put a 777 back on MIA-LAX to increase revenue?


Laughable post. On the most popular transcons like NYC to LA and SFO, AA flies 3 class 321T with first, business and coach that business people love whereas DL uses a lot of old 757a and 767s to do those. Not having 757s that consume so much fuel is a good thing. It is an old plane.

All the business people that fly between LAX and SFO to NYC know that they get true first class only on AA. They would pick that anytime instead of an old 757 or 767.


This used to be the case up until recently. AA has lost many corporate contracts and FF on the NYC end. Many business and entertainment people prefer B6 Mint. DL and UA have also gained due to the fact that AA cut many destinations at JFK. AA originally thought many customers would stick with them and simply connect in PHL which didn’t happen.
 
Swadian
Posts: 539
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 4:56 am

Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:08 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:

Frankly, this post is as laughable as his. You're saying you only get first class on A321Ts on AA and DL flies "old" 757s and 767s. However, you ignore that DL has DL One on those flights (i.e., first - and no, the A321T first is not leaps and bounds above Delta One). Frankly, the argument that "old" planes are worse is tiresome, you can refurb an aircraft (in fact, I just had a Delta One equipped 757 on SEA-JFK and it was beautiful on the inside because of Delta's refurbishment).


I don't know about that. I'd rather fly a new 3-class 321T than a 25 year old 757 no matter how refurbished it is.


You very well could be in an older seat and interior on a 321T than a completely refurbished 757. Either way, point being, its not some clear winner for the 321T for everyone, maybe a small subset.


I never argued for keeping the 757 in favor of A321T, I argued precisely for replacing the 757 with the A321. This isn't about 757 vs A321, it's about cutting capacity vs maintaining capacity to stay competitive. Vasu Raja said there won't be an Airbus base in ORD; if AA doesn't want 757 and also doesn't deploy A321 at ORD, they'll lose to UA as they are right now.

jbs2886 wrote:
Swadian wrote:
alasizon wrote:

Correlation does not equal causation. Just because DL has more 757s does not mean that is why they are more profitable than AA.

A 75L with lie-flats is going to offer 176 seats on MIA-SFO as opposed to 181 on a 321S. Passengers aren't going to pay for a premium for lie flat on SFO-MIA (maybe $50 more but that might be about it). So you've basically sold the same number of J class seats, less Y seats, used an older aircraft prone to more MX problems, used an aircraft with a higher CASM and also limited the ability for an aircraft swap should something go awry.

As far as ordering the 38M, that has near zilch to do with retiring the 757s. The 38M is going to end up replacing the older 738s from the early 2000s as they come up on their second lease cycle as well as replacing the last of the MD-80s plus a bit of growth. The choice to use the 38M for some of the 757 routes out of MIA is a business choice, its likely more profitable since the majority of traffic on the routes are in coach and the loss in F capacity is likely about the same as the number of upgrades each flight was seeing.

The reason the LUS 757s were kept for the domestic PHX flights is the decision was made prior to a joint pilot contract or joint MX contract so you needed to have LUS pilots flying those routes and they simply had less cycles than some the AA 75W planes and keeping the old HP birds wasn't an option. Because each of these aircraft requires an ETOPS check prior to going to Hawaii, you need to have LUS mechanics in PHX completing those (as they are trained to do so). Also, these birds are going to be gone by end of 2020 as they are replaced with 321NEOs.

I love the 757 as an aircraft but the reality is that for the majority of them, their time has come and gone. If they were about 5 years newer, it'd likely be a totally different ballgame. AA has shown that they intend to move forward with a newer fleet and not refurbish the older ones which is the opposite of what DL has shown. But that does not make that choice alone responsible for the difference in revenue and profit performance.


You missed my point.

I didn't say DL was more profitable solely because of having more 752s compared to A321 or 738, but rather that AA can't compete with DL and B6 because they're flying 738s where DL / B6 are flying 752 / A321 with lie-flat seats. AA may have to undercut DL / B6 to get premium traffic or risk losing that traffic, therefore diluting revenue. For example, AA is using a 738 (or possibly 38M in the future) on JFK-SEA while DL is using 752 and B6 is using A321. AA formerly used 752 on JFK-SEA, but replaced it with a 738 as the 752 fleet dwindled and the 738 fleet expanded.

I didn't suggest AA keep the 752 like DL, but rather that AA replace the 752 with A321neo. Since the A321neo orders aren't getting delivered yet, AA could have kept some more 752 until said A321neo orders are delivered, and then replace the 752 with them. Even without lie-flat seats, an A321 can generate more revenue at lower CASM than a 738 without losing capacity compared to 752. Look at all those 738s at ORD; AA could probably increase revenue by putting more 752 or A321 at ORD instead of 738.

Didn't AA put a 777 back on MIA-LAX to increase revenue?


A few critiques:

1) DL isn't exclusively flying Delta One on JFK-SEA. Moreover, its one route. Your entire paragraph is really only applicable to a handful of routes that won't move the needle that much on profit for massive airlines.

2) Why keep the 757s? Perhaps they were less reliable or coming up for costly maintenance? Those two things, alone, could outweigh any capacity decrease or revenue premium decline compared to a 737. Frankly, if AA felt they needed to compete for those customers, they could have added an A321T to the route....the fact that they didn't speaks volumes.

3) A lot of your assumptions are basically, if you put a bigger plane on the route you make more money. And, if you have better premium seats you have a higher revenue premium. Both are not always true. Flying larger planes is typically more costly and if you aren't filling the seats at appropriate prices, you lose money. If not, why aren't we all flying A380s everywhere?!


1) That's not the only route, it's one of many examples where DL / B6 offer a bigger plane or better premium seats, swiped corporate contracts. AA also could've kept JFK-ZRH and upgauged it to a 77E instead of ditching it for PHL-ZRH with an uncompetitive 763. AA should take the 77E off MIA-LAX, move it to JFK-ZRH, and put a 75L on MIA-LAX - oh wait, they don't have enough 75L to do so.

2) The A321T has way too many premium seats and AA barely has enough A321T just to maintain JFK-LAX and JFK-SFO.

3) Bringing the A380 into the debate is highly irrational as the A380 is significantly larger than anything else carrying passengers. The A321 simply represents keeping the same capacity as a 757 on routes formerly flown by the 757 (or the DC-10 before that). What AA needs is not more 757 and less A321, what they need is more A321 and less 38M and 757. AA is using 738 on hub-to-hub where the A321 would be more profitable.

asuflyer wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
Swadian wrote:

...


...


This used to be the case up until recently. AA has lost many corporate contracts and FF on the NYC end. Many business and entertainment people prefer B6 Mint. DL and UA have also gained due to the fact that AA cut many destinations at JFK. AA originally thought many customers would stick with them and simply connect in PHL which didn’t happen.


Exactly, they should've done better at JFK but instead temporarily resorted to slot-squatting in a slot-restricted airport. Does BA slot-squat at LHR? No. Thanks for explaining it better than I could.
 
miaami
Posts: 906
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:27 am

Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:24 am

The following site lists AA receiving another A319 today. Could not locate on Flight Aware but this would be the 3rd A-319 formerly from Frontier.

https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb. ... av4&page=1
 
miaami
Posts: 906
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:27 am

Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:17 pm

3rd A-319 from Frontier scheduled to fly TPA-ROW for new paint.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/JTN ... /KTPA/KROW
 
Detroit313
Posts: 253
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:41 pm

I had no idea all these 319s were coming so fast.
 
alasizon
Topic Author
Posts: 1947
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:03 pm

Detroit313 wrote:
I had no idea all these 319s were coming so fast.


The initial plan was to have all three in service by end of year but that certainly looks like it won't be happening. I think only two will be in service.
Manager on Duty & Tower Planner
 
demkid
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri May 26, 2017 6:48 am

Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:12 pm

Still a few MD-80s to retire by the end of the year, correct? Anyone know when those are scheduled to leave the fleet?
 
alasizon
Topic Author
Posts: 1947
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:14 pm

demkid wrote:
Still a few MD-80s to retire by the end of the year, correct? Anyone know when those are scheduled to leave the fleet?


I believe everything that is planned to leave for the year is already gone. The rest will leave in August 2019.
Manager on Duty & Tower Planner
 
Detroit313
Posts: 253
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:35 pm

I wonder how the 319s they got from Frontier look inside. More like LUS 319s I would think. Power ports at every seat or 2 per 3 seats?
 
Miamiairport
Posts: 236
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:14 pm

Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:38 pm

Detroit313 wrote:
I wonder how the 319s they got from Frontier look inside. More like LUS 319s I would think. Power ports at every seat or 2 per 3 seats?


I'm assuming they will get power ports at all seats but no AVOD. I don't there's been an official fleet schedule put out for 2019 that will detail new a/c and retirements by quarter. I think the mass August 2019 retirements of the MD80s is just a rumor. But could be true.
 
anymaninfc
Posts: 142
Joined: Sat May 07, 2016 7:13 am

Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:43 pm

alasizon wrote:
demkid wrote:
Still a few MD-80s to retire by the end of the year, correct? Anyone know when those are scheduled to leave the fleet?


I believe everything that is planned to leave for the year is already gone. The rest will leave in August 2019.

My understanding was they would end 2018 with 26 MD-80s. If that remains the case, then four additional MD-80s will be retired before year end. Regarding the balance of the MD-80s, I just read they would be retired in 2019 with no dates specified.
 
alasizon
Topic Author
Posts: 1947
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:09 pm

Miamiairport wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
I wonder how the 319s they got from Frontier look inside. More like LUS 319s I would think. Power ports at every seat or 2 per 3 seats?


I'm assuming they will get power ports at all seats but no AVOD. I don't there's been an official fleet schedule put out for 2019 that will detail new a/c and retirements by quarter. I think the mass August 2019 retirements of the MD80s is just a rumor. But could be true.


The 319s will be pretty much identical to the LUS 319s as they are considered A19s in the system.

anymaninfc wrote:
alasizon wrote:
demkid wrote:
Still a few MD-80s to retire by the end of the year, correct? Anyone know when those are scheduled to leave the fleet?


I believe everything that is planned to leave for the year is already gone. The rest will leave in August 2019.

My understanding was they would end 2018 with 26 MD-80s. If that remains the case, then four additional MD-80s will be retired before year end. Regarding the balance of the MD-80s, I just read they would be retired in 2019 with no dates specified.


According to the IR update from the Q3 results, plan was to have 30 at the end of the year.
https://americanairlines.gcs-web.com/st ... 05976e6516
Manager on Duty & Tower Planner
 
OB1504
Posts: 3680
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:10 am

Re: AA Fleet Updates - 2018

Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:41 am

sagechan wrote:
It's more of the configuration issue thouth the lavs may still be a problem. Even though they are simplifying the fleets it seems AA will need yet another A321neo sub fleet for international ops to South America (or LRs for that and Europe) with proper international biz seats.


I don’t think they’ll need a separate subfleet given that they’ve decided that the current 737 MAX configuration is just fine for MIA-BSB/VVI.

Detroit313 wrote:
I don't know about that. I'd rather fly a new 3-class 321T than a 25 year old 757 no matter how refurbished it is.


If AA had been serious about their cabin refurbishments like Delta, you wouldn’t be able to tell the difference. I connected from a 26-year-old Delta 757 to a months-old Delta A321 tonight and the interiors were virtually identical and modern. Really puts AA’s offering on their 757s and new 737 MAXes to shame.

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