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Slug71
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Re: Airbus Beluga XL Production Thread

Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:37 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
I wonder why Airbus didn't use the A350's curved cockpit windows? Is there no aero benefit to them(which would seem odd)? I know a number of years ago, they were significantly more expensive. But today?


And just how do you expect to stick A350 windows into an A330 cockpit structure?!?


While I admittedly know nothing when it comes to these things, It doesn't seem like a major change. But as scbriml pointed out, it probably doesn't fall on the right side of the cost/benefit factor.

ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:
hilram wrote:
Forgive me if this has already been answered earlier in the thread: Will the old Belugas be retired as the new Beluga XLs are coming in, or will they be kept going in parallell?


I believe the plan is to use them in parallel to help with the increased production demand for a while.

Though according to this the original Belugas will be retired around 2025. http://www.aircargonews.net/news/airlin ... -2019.html

So who knows, there might be a second lot of Beluga XLs depending on demand.


I don't think more than 5 can be operated due to restrictions in the Type Certificate, as previously mentioned.
Last edited by Slug71 on Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
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Re: Airbus Beluga XL Production Thread

Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:56 pm

I would've thought they'd be operating under different type certificates given they're based on different airframes? A300 and A330.

Especially given they're planning to run them in parallel for a while.
 
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Polot
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Re: Airbus Beluga XL Production Thread

Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:01 pm

ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:
I would've thought they'd be operating under different type certificates given they're based on different airframes? A300 and A330.

Especially given they're planning to run them in parallel for a while.

He was responding to the possibility of a 2nd lot of Beluga XLs, not running Beluga XLs and OG Belugas in parallel.
 
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Re: Airbus Beluga XL Production Thread

Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:29 pm

Ah, that makes sense.
 
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Re: Airbus Beluga XL Production Thread

Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:09 pm

ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:
hilram wrote:
Forgive me if this has already been answered earlier in the thread: Will the old Belugas be retired as the new Beluga XLs are coming in, or will they be kept going in parallell?


I believe the plan is to use them in parallel to help with the increased production demand for a while.

Though according to this the original Belugas will be retired around 2025. http://www.aircargonews.net/news/airlin ... -2019.html

So who knows, there might be a second lot of Beluga XLs depending on demand.


...and I was hoping, at least one will go to a museum rather soon... Always wanted to have a look inside... :cry2:
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Airbus Beluga XL Production Thread

Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:42 pm

Slug71 wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
I wonder why Airbus didn't use the A350's curved cockpit windows? Is there no aero benefit to them(which would seem odd)? I know a number of years ago, they were significantly more expensive. But today?


And just how do you expect to stick A350 windows into an A330 cockpit structure?!?


While I admittedly know nothing when it comes to these things, It doesn't seem like a major change.


Not trying to rag on you, but you have to realise that different size/shape/number of window panels means a very different window frame and that the frame is part of the actual nose structure...

It's like buying a shiny new sliding patio door, then simply knocking a massive hole in the side of your house for it and expecting no problems with the roof or walls collapsing...
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StTim
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Re: Airbus Beluga XL Production Thread

Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:51 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:

And just how do you expect to stick A350 windows into an A330 cockpit structure?!?


While I admittedly know nothing when it comes to these things, It doesn't seem like a major change.


Not trying to rag on you, but you have to realise that different size/shape/number of window panels means a very different window frame and that the frame is part of the actual nose structure...

It's like buying a shiny new sliding patio door, then simply knocking a massive hole in the side of your house for it and expecting no problems with the roof or walls collapsing...


We all know that planes are just bolted together from what they have in the parts bin from previous designs.....

:)
 
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Slug71
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Re: Airbus Beluga XL Production Thread

Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:08 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:

And just how do you expect to stick A350 windows into an A330 cockpit structure?!?


While I admittedly know nothing when it comes to these things, It doesn't seem like a major change.


Not trying to rag on you, but you have to realise that different size/shape/number of window panels means a very different window frame and that the frame is part of the actual nose structure...

It's like buying a shiny new sliding patio door, then simply knocking a massive hole in the side of your house for it and expecting no problems with the roof or walls collapsing...


Not taken that way at all. I'm here to be educated. :)
I did take that into consideration. I just wasn't sure if it was still cost related or for what you point out.
 
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zeke
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Re: Airbus Beluga XL Production Thread

Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:20 am

Slug71 wrote:
I don't think more than 5 can be operated due to restrictions in the Type Certificate, as previously mentioned.


No such issue, they simply don’t need more aircraft.
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kanban
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Re: Airbus Beluga XL Production Thread

Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:07 am

clarification, the A330 historical thread was locked and replaced by an A330 production 2018 thread.. so we don't need to rehash that data here. you can find it if you dig.
 
imthedreamliner
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Re: Airbus Beluga XL Production Thread

Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:00 am

Very interesting to have a production thread for an aircraft that will be produced just a few :)) It already has 110 posts.
On the other hand, it is always good to have a thread that is Airbus-Boeing Bashing free :)
 
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Re: Airbus Beluga XL Production Thread

Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:45 am

A question that's probably been answered before but I can't find it. Why is it based on -200? Wouldn't they want more length in case they need to transport longer cargoes? Who knows how long the next airplane's wings will be? Who knows, maybe the 80x80m box will be expanded soon.
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Re: Airbus Beluga XL Production Thread

Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:47 am

Oh, I forgot. KUDOS, Airbus. Only 3 years from launch to rollout. I'm habitually amazed by Airbus' ability to deliver ANYTHING they want or need.
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Re: Airbus Beluga XL Production Thread

Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:55 am

BREECH wrote:
A question that's probably been answered before but I can't find it. Why is it based on -200? Wouldn't they want more length in case they need to transport longer cargoes? Who knows how long the next airplane's wings will be? Who knows, maybe the 80x80m box will be expanded soon.

There is a matrix posted on page one (bottom) of this thread which answers your question.
Correction: it’s rather in the middle of page 1 ..

By the way: thank you all who answered my question before :-)
 
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Re: Airbus Beluga XL Production Thread

Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:43 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
AFAIK that is the official livery selected by popular vote among the employees.

Outstanding job by Airbus! I will never see one, but it's great to know it exists.
 
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Re: Airbus Beluga XL Production Thread

Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:49 pm

imthedreamliner wrote:
Very interesting to have a production thread for an aircraft that will be produced just a few :)) It already has 110 posts.
On the other hand, it is always good to have a thread that is Airbus-Boeing Bashing free :)

Oh yeah?

Boeing Fanboy: The Dreamlifter is bigger and can fly further. :tongue2:
Airbus Fanboy: The original Beluga outsold it 5 to 4, and the neo is 5-0. :tongue2:

:rotfl:
 
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Re: Airbus Beluga XL Production Thread

Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:10 pm

AFAIK Airbus could also develop a Beluga XL based on the A330-800 or -900. They could again build five and operate ten at once. 5x A330-700 Beluga XL based on the A330-200 and 5x A330-800 or -900 Beluga XL.
I think the current plan is to operate the original A300 Belugas until they are worn out around 2025. Because the Beluga XLs are larger than the Belugas the annual amount of flight hours for the same production rate decreased. (A set of A350 wings on the Beluga XL and only one on the Belugas, is the most obvious example.)
The decision to expand the Beluga XL fleet lies years ahead, and will depend on expansion of European plane production. I guess A320 global rate 62, A330 rate 7 or 8, A350 rate 10 and A380 rate 30/year could be maintained with only five Beluga XLs.
For clarity the Belugas only fly in Europe. The A320 sub-assemblies for the Mobile and Tianjin A320 FALs are shipped there or build regionally.
 
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Re: Airbus Beluga XL Production Thread

Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:56 pm

Bricktop wrote:
imthedreamliner wrote:
Very interesting to have a production thread for an aircraft that will be produced just a few :)) It already has 110 posts.
On the other hand, it is always good to have a thread that is Airbus-Boeing Bashing free :)

Oh yeah?

Boeing Fanboy: The Dreamlifter is bigger and can fly further. :tongue2:
Airbus Fanboy: The original Beluga outsold it 5 to 4, and the neo is 5-0. :tongue2: :rotfl:

guess it really shows one manufacturer scoped their needs accurately and the other is spending millions because their first estimate was too small. :duck: :duck:
 
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LoganTheBogan
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Re: Airbus Beluga XL Production Thread

Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:16 am

Any update on ground testing/engine fitting or has it been locked away from media?
Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Airbus Beluga XL Production Thread

Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:31 pm

Bricktop wrote:
imthedreamliner wrote:
Very interesting to have a production thread for an aircraft that will be produced just a few :)) It already has 110 posts.
On the other hand, it is always good to have a thread that is Airbus-Boeing Bashing free :)

Oh yeah?

Boeing Fanboy: The Dreamlifter is bigger and can fly further. :tongue2:
Airbus Fanboy: The original Beluga outsold it 5 to 4, and the neo is 5-0. :tongue2:

:rotfl:

Old Geezer Fanboy: You forgot the Super Guppy used by Airbus but build from a Boeing Stratocruiser!

Image

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aero_Spac ... uper_Guppy says:

In the early 1970s, the two Super Guppy Turbines were used by Airbus to transport aeroplane parts from decentralised production facilities to the final assembly plant in Toulouse. In 1982 and 1983, two additional Super Guppy Turbines were built by Union de Transports Aériens Industries in France after Airbus bought the right to produce the aircraft. The four Super Guppies have since been replaced by the Airbus Beluga, capable of carrying twice as much cargo by weight.

We need to consult with the "official A vs B scorers" on this one!
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Re: Official A330 Production/Flight Testing - 2018

Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:59 pm

moo wrote:
Airbus have flown cargo for third parties several times on the Beluga, including pandas and paintings - they couldn't do that under a test or restricted certificate.


The Belugas are individually certified airframes, a modification of the A300 resp. A330.
EASA seems to require a full type certificate if you do 6 or more identical samples. "series production".
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Re: Official A330 Production/Flight Testing - 2018

Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:12 pm

WIederling wrote:
The Belugas are individually certified airframes, a modification of the A300 resp. A330.
EASA seems to require a full type certificate if you do 6 or more identical samples. "series production".


I do not believe that is true, they are certified under their restricted type certificate, they are production A300s that have been modified.

https://www.easa.europa.eu/system/files ... Issue6.pdf

This means they can only be employed under a restricted air operators certificate which is usual for special purpose aircraft, aircraft modified for fire fighting, agriculture, police often fall in this category.
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Re: Official A330 Production/Flight Testing - 2018

Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:53 pm

zeke wrote:
This means they can only be employed under a restricted air operators certificate which is usual for special purpose aircraft, aircraft modified for fire fighting, agriculture, police often fall in this category.


That is all right and dandy. But I seem to remember that the fleet of 5 is a limit set by the certification environment.
Afair this was talked about after the 5th A300-600ST was delivered.
maybe someone else remembers and has a reference.
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zeke
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Re: Airbus Beluga XL Production Thread

Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:03 pm

It just isn’t true as you have fleets or modified aircraft for agricultural purposes that are under restricted certificates.
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Re: Airbus Beluga XL Production Thread

Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:54 am

Would it be more efficient to neo the beluga XL with the A330neo wing? I think it would be more efficient in terms of fuel costs if they have a larger engine capable of producing more thrust if needed, which would compliment climb performance at MTOW or somewhere near it. The winglet would also increase overall efficiency of the wing, so as I see it at the moment, it would be more efficient to neo the Beluga XL.

I guess it would be cheaper for airbus to only modify the fuselage to carry the load in the upper cargo space, making it more economical. And apparently, the A330neo performs best at routes 4,000nm and above, before which the A330ceo is more economic and efficient.

So in the end, does it just comes down to what is more economical in production costs, right?
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Re: Airbus Beluga XL Production Thread

Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:55 am

The Beluga XL already features revised aerodynamics - that huge fuselage demanded some special aero tweaks and the design was carried out based on the current wing. The Beluga flies short sectors between Airbus factories in the EU - so the RR Trent 700 engines should be cost competitive.

No doubt, in a few more years, Airbus might develop another Beluga that uses the A330Neo or A350 as the base platform.
 
WIederling
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Re: Airbus Beluga XL Production Thread

Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:27 am

Then the Belugas cruise a lot slower than either A300 or A330 in their regular config.
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StTim
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Re: Airbus Beluga XL Production Thread

Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:58 am

They cruise slower but I bet their engines are working just as hard. That hump will cause a lot of drag compared to the standard frame.
 
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Re: Airbus Beluga XL Production Thread

Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:04 am

BREECH wrote:
A question that's probably been answered before but I can't find it. Why is it based on -200? Wouldn't they want more length in case they need to transport longer cargoes? Who knows how long the next airplane's wings will be? Who knows, maybe the 80x80m box will be expanded soon.

The XL chassis already is a mish mash of -200 and -300 sections. the cockpit section is moved not only down _but also_ a bit forward.
The raised tail fin additionally allows the holds rear cone to be wider at the end than on the ST.

XL (63.1m) overall length is about the same as the A333 ( 63.86m ) ... old Beluga, the original: 56.15 m
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Re: Airbus Beluga XL Production Thread

Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:16 am

WIederling wrote:
BREECH wrote:
A question that's probably been answered before but I can't find it. Why is it based on -200? Wouldn't they want more length in case they need to transport longer cargoes? Who knows how long the next airplane's wings will be? Who knows, maybe the 80x80m box will be expanded soon.

The XL chassis already is a mish mash of -200 and -300 sections. the cockpit section is moved not only down _but also_ a bit forward.
The raised tail fin additionally allows the holds rear cone to be wider at the end than on the ST.

XL (63.1m) overall length is about the same as the A333 ( 63.86m ) ... old Beluga, the original: 56.15 m


I believe it is also to do with the handling capacity of Broughton.

There is a slide somewhere where they reviewed the options.
 
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flee
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Re: Airbus Beluga XL Production Thread

Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:44 am

It is the runway length at Broughton - I am not sure if they are allowed to extend the runway or whether it is technically/financially able to do so. With BREXIT looming, it would be hard to justify any investment in the UK until the cloud clears.
 
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Re: Airbus Beluga XL Production Thread

Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:55 am

It was wet landing conditions at Broughton which were the main factors.
 
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Re: Airbus Beluga XL Production Thread

Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:15 am

I'd imagine that the next Beluga will be based on the A380.
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Re: Airbus Beluga XL Production Thread

Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:11 pm

Doubt it. You'd need to get through that structural floor and where would you stick the door to load all that long outsize stuff like wings and fuselages? I'd think in the future an A350 based one is more likely. But this is so far in the future. Airbus still need to finish and commission these ones. And even then they could just do a follow on order of a sort.
 
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Re: Airbus Beluga XL Production Thread

Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:16 pm

How long have the current Belugas been in use? I suspect that the new ones will have a similar life. The replacement will be based on the needs then and what can be forseen.
 
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Re: Airbus Beluga XL Production Thread

Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:21 pm

RRUltrafan wrote:
Would it be more efficient to neo the beluga XL with the A330neo wing? I think it would be more efficient in terms of fuel costs if they have a larger engine capable of producing more thrust if needed, which would compliment climb performance at MTOW or somewhere near it. The winglet would also increase overall efficiency of the wing, so as I see it at the moment, it would be more efficient to neo the Beluga XL.

I guess it would be cheaper for airbus to only modify the fuselage to carry the load in the upper cargo space, making it more economical. And apparently, the A330neo performs best at routes 4,000nm and above, before which the A330ceo is more economic and efficient.

So in the end, does it just comes down to what is more economical in production costs, right?


The T700 has about the same thrust as the T7000. The advantage of the A330neo over the A330ceo is fuel burn, that does not bring that much advantage to the Beluga XL.
 
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Re: Airbus Beluga XL Production Thread

Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:42 pm

Motorhussy wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Motorhussy wrote:
Apologies as this has probably been asked and answered already but will the new extended A350 winglets be used on the A330neo as well?
Thanks
MH


No, it uses the wing and engines of the ceo.


Thank you. But the A330neo has the same winglets as those on the current A359 no?

And mods, not sure how I ended up in the ‘Beluga XL’ thred as I clicked through from the search on the ‘Official A330 production 2018’ one.

I figured you meant NEO and not Beluga, and not to answer for mjoelnir, but it's still a no.

The wing structures, shape, materials, and certifications are totally different. The actual flow and vorticies of the wings are different as well, which has a big impact on the size and shape/location of the winglets too.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Airbus Beluga XL Production Thread

Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:25 am

aero.de now reports that the engines of the first Beluga XL will be now installed.
Source: http://www.aero.de/news-28819/Erste-Bel ... werke.html

Question: in that article there is mentioning that within the cockpit section there is an area for four couriers.
I didn't know that. Does anyone have more background Information or even a sketch?
 
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Re: Airbus Beluga XL Production Thread

Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:34 am

N14AZ wrote:


official designation: A330-743L

does that indicate that the XL is more of NEO like airframe?

The A330F front section includes room for courier "payload".
the BelugaXL front is the standard front section moved down and out.
so courier seats are probably "integral".
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mjoelnir
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Re: Airbus Beluga XL Production Thread

Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:04 am

WIederling wrote:
N14AZ wrote:


official designation: A330-743L

does that indicate that the XL is more of NEO like airframe?

The A330F front section includes room for courier "payload".
the BelugaXL front is the standard front section moved down and out.
so courier seats are probably "integral".


The A330-743L has the Trent 700 engines, nothing neo about it. Wings will be standard ceo wings, with ceo wing tip devices.

I assume that the -400, -500 and -600 have been already used, the -400 at least internally. The A330-xxx denote the same fuselage as the A340-xxx.
The -700 seems to be next in line.
 
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Re: Airbus Beluga XL Production Thread

Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:57 am

mjoelnir wrote:
WIederling wrote:
N14AZ wrote:


official designation: A330-743L

does that indicate that the XL is more of NEO like airframe?

The A330F front section includes room for courier "payload".
the BelugaXL front is the standard front section moved down and out.
so courier seats are probably "integral".


The A330-743L has the Trent 700 engines, nothing neo about it. Wings will be standard ceo wings, with ceo wing tip devices.

I assume that the -400, -500 and -600 have been already used, the -400 at least internally. The A330-xxx denote the same fuselage as the A340-xxx.
The -700 seems to be next in line.


Lengthwise it should be -300, derivation wise a -250
( front from A332F but cockpit section moved down and out , rear from A333? :-)
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N14AZ
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Re: Airbus Beluga XL Production Thread

Mon Mar 26, 2018 12:16 pm

Thanks for your feedback. I made a brief internet research regarding my initial question about the section for "four couriers" and just found this piece of information in the Wikipedia-webpage (I know, I know...):

the nose includes the cockpit while a four-seat courier section is supplied by Airbus

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_Beluga_XL

It's just that I simply cannot imagine where there will be four seats behind the cockpit:
Image

Well, it just says "couriers". Nobody said it will be human couriers. Maybe Airbus' still use pigeons... ;-)
 
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Re: Airbus Beluga XL Production Thread

Mon Mar 26, 2018 12:40 pm

WIederling wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
WIederling wrote:

official designation: A330-743L

does that indicate that the XL is more of NEO like airframe?

The A330F front section includes room for courier "payload".
the BelugaXL front is the standard front section moved down and out.
so courier seats are probably "integral".


The A330-743L has the Trent 700 engines, nothing neo about it. Wings will be standard ceo wings, with ceo wing tip devices.

I assume that the -400, -500 and -600 have been already used, the -400 at least internally. The A330-xxx denote the same fuselage as the A340-xxx.
The -700 seems to be next in line.


Lengthwise it should be -300, derivation wise a -250
( front from A332F but cockpit section moved down and out , rear from A333? :-)


It is a new A330 fuselage, therefor the next number in line -700 is quite logical.
 
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keesje
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Re: Airbus Beluga XL Production Thread

Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:26 pm

This is how it looks on Fedex's old A300B4 frieghter, it has 6.

Image

On the Beluga's there is significant space on the lower deck behind the cockpit.
However courrier seats are part of the pressurized area, so probably different pressure bulkheads.

Image
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WIederling
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Re: Airbus Beluga XL Production Thread

Mon Mar 26, 2018 2:02 pm

However courrier seats are part of the pressurized area, so probably different pressure bulkheads.

Hold is pressurized on the A3?? freighters. So no new pressure bulkhead.
For the Beluga (ST;XL) there must be a new bulkhead somewhere behind the cockpit.
If you look at the space behind the cockpit windows there is enough room for amenities.

How is access to the cockpit done? via some hatch in the cockpit belly?
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Polot
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Re: Airbus Beluga XL Production Thread

Mon Mar 26, 2018 2:05 pm

Looks like plenty of room for 4 seats to me. Nobody said the courier seating area was going to win space and luxury awards- they are not EY apartments. Seat backs will probably be right up against the bulkhead.

Btw where is the emergency exit for the cockpit area on the XL? On the current beluga it is on the right side, but it appears to be missing on both sides on the XL.
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
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Re: Airbus Beluga XL Production Thread

Mon Mar 26, 2018 2:07 pm

And my understanding is the Beluga's are basically doing short haul flights all the time shooting around Europe. So it isn't like you're going to be stuck there for more than a couple hours at a time.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Airbus A330 Production/Delivery Thread 2018

Mon Mar 26, 2018 2:13 pm

WIederling wrote:
How is access to the cockpit done? via some hatch in the cockpit belly?

This was discussed on the first page of this thread:
817Dreamliiner wrote:
Airboe wrote:
Please allow me a very stupid question, but I can’t see any “doors” in the frame, how do the Crew enter?

If you look at the last photo in Karel's post you can see a hatch above the tug behind the nose gear.

That's the Picture 817Dreamliner is referring to.
Image

Polot wrote:
Looks like plenty of room for 4 seats to me. Nobody said the courier seating area was going to win space and luxury awards- they are not EY apartments.

Well, that's true :-) ... Some small windows would have been nice, though...
 
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Polot
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Re: Airbus A330 Production/Delivery Thread 2018

Mon Mar 26, 2018 2:23 pm

N14AZ wrote:
WIederling wrote:
How is access to the cockpit done? via some hatch in the cockpit belly?

This was discussed on the first page of this thread:
817Dreamliiner wrote:
Airboe wrote:
Please allow me a very stupid question, but I can’t see any “doors” in the frame, how do the Crew enter?

If you look at the last photo in Karel's post you can see a hatch above the tug behind the nose gear.

That's the Picture 817Dreamliner is referring to.

I’m guessing that through the cockpit windows is the alternate means of emergency exit, as hoping that the bottom of the fuselage is raised up from gear/open to egress in an emergency situation can be asking a lot.
 
WIederling
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Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Airbus Beluga XL Production Thread

Mon Mar 26, 2018 2:41 pm

crashing the thing will be much harder on the cockpit than with a cigar like fuselage.
Murphy is an optimist

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