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EarlyLateORD
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Value of an all-weather hub

Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:52 am

I've been curious this evening.

I mostly fly on American Airlines and each winter/spring is a bit of Russian-roulette when it comes to successful travel. My flight to PHL is pre-emotively cancelled for tomorrow.

It appears none of AA's hubs can manage a winter storm that drops more than 6 inches of snow, except perhaps ORD.
PHL lacks in-ground re-fueling, CLT lacks de-icing pads, LGA (too many issues to list), DCA lacks snow removal equipment, DFW lacks de-icing equipment, LAX rarely sees winter events on the flip side.

UA seems to manage winter weather a bit better, not by much. ORD has the same issues that AA experiences. EWR is usually reduced to one run way. IAD shuts down. DEN can handle snow/ice to a degree.

Delta seems to be able to handle winter weather travel better through MSP and DTW, ATL is congested and lacks de-icing space. SEA can handle snow, but not ice. SLC i have no idea about.

Does Delta have a greater value in the public's eye due to their ability to manage winter weather in many cases better than their competitors? Should AA be pressing their hub airports to invest in better winter capabilities?

Adam
 
JHwk
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Re: Value of an all-weather hub

Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:27 am

UA has DEN and IAH as well; I would say they are better positioned than DL, especially in diversity of hubs. IAD pre-merger was a nightmare though.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Value of an all-weather hub

Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:33 am

AA also has PHX and MIA, both are hubs that pretty much never snow.

SLC I would say is similar to DEN in terms of snow operation.
 
WWads
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Re: Value of an all-weather hub

Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:40 am

I think DL has the best hubs in terms of weather.

-MSP and DTW are generally snow-proof, and don't see a ton of severe thunderstorms.
-ATL is vulnerable to storms, but doesn't see that much snow.
-SLC rarely has issues, same for LAX.
-SEA can have fog and wind issues, but generally does fine.

Only real weak points for DL are JFK and LGA

AA and UA both have ORD, so they automatically lose. AA isn't as reliant on ORD as UA is, but they have PHL and DCA which easily suffer from weather and ATC issues.
 
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chepos
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Re: Value of an all-weather hub

Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:41 am

WWads wrote:
I think DL has the best hubs in terms of weather.

-MSP and DTW are generally snow-proof, and don't see a ton of severe thunderstorms.
-ATL is vulnerable to storms, but doesn't see that much snow.
-SLC rarely has issues, same for LAX.
-SEA can have fog and wind issues, but generally does fine.

Only real weak points for DL are JFK and LGA

AA and UA both have ORD, so they automatically lose. AA isn't as reliant on ORD as UA is, but they have PHL and DCA which easily suffer from weather and ATC issues.



Except if ATL has a storm cloud over it, forget it. Things go downhill
fast. And you forgot JFK and LGA (they see winter weather).
Fly the Flag!!!!
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Value of an all-weather hub

Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:49 am

I think a huge issue with this storm is NOT the snow , its the high winds foretasted. NYC, BOS, BTV, MHT are all suppose to see some pretty strong winds for a long period of time. I haven't looked at PHL, but i bet its gonna fall in the same boat. Very high winds predicted and that is why your flight was really cancelled.

I have had so many winter delays at ORD i cant even list it. I would hardly say ORD operates well in winter weather. It suffers from the same issues the northeast airports do. Its very busy and basically operates at maximum capacity at all times. The airlines are early cancelling flights now to prevent people from getting stuck in those airports and to resume normal schedules ASAP.

JFK/LGA/EWR have fantastic facilities for snow removal. They have the equipment needed for snow removal. I was at EWR on that big storm a few years ago the PANYNJ dug out of a huge storm quickly. The problem is LGA and the NYC airports in general operate at 105% capacity at all times so snow just like rain, fog, wind creates alot of delays since the airport runs at max capacity. The air space is too crowded. I think the NYC airports in general handle snow pretty well the problem is congestion, but its the same as anything else that limits landings/takeoffs from being 100% delays happen.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Value of an all-weather hub

Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:07 am

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
I think a huge issue with this storm is NOT the snow , its the high winds foretasted. NYC, BOS, BTV, MHT are all suppose to see some pretty strong winds for a long period of time. I haven't looked at PHL, but i bet its gonna fall in the same boat. Very high winds predicted and that is why your flight was really cancelled.

I have had so many winter delays at ORD i cant even list it. I would hardly say ORD operates well in winter weather. It suffers from the same issues the northeast airports do. Its very busy and basically operates at maximum capacity at all times. The airlines are early cancelling flights now to prevent people from getting stuck in those airports and to resume normal schedules ASAP.

JFK/LGA/EWR have fantastic facilities for snow removal. They have the equipment needed for snow removal. I was at EWR on that big storm a few years ago the PANYNJ dug out of a huge storm quickly. The problem is LGA and the NYC airports in general operate at 105% capacity at all times so snow just like rain, fog, wind creates alot of delays since the airport runs at max capacity. The air space is too crowded. I think the NYC airports in general handle snow pretty well the problem is congestion, but its the same as anything else that limits landings/takeoffs from being 100% delays happen.


And often, it's the east side of the airport that gets plowed first, along with 31L/13R, and then the west side. During one major snowstorm, when Terminal 8 (the American Airlines terminal) had not yet been dug out, early AA arrivals had to use Terminal 4 (the IAT) and then planes were towed to T8.
 
Airplanebrain
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Re: Value of an all-weather hub

Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:21 am

DFW has plenty of de-icing and snow equipment...

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/dfw ... er-weather
 
ericm2031
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Re: Value of an all-weather hub

Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:48 am

UA has DEN, which handles the weather very well with the spacing and quantity of runways. Even if everything shuts down, it can recover very quickly.

And then they have SFO and EWR, which are both complete messes with the slightest bit of anything.

LAX is congested but it doesn’t get much in terms of weather that impacts it. I think the previous gate caps have even helped it from getting overly congested on the ATC side...gate holds seem to be the biggest problem.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Value of an all-weather hub

Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:05 am

I'll comment on DTW, but also applicable to MSP as well.
Despite the stereotypes of cold and snowy winters, the Upper Midwest has relatively predictable weather pattern.

DTW / Metro Detroit is on the opposite side of the state from the big lake effect snow belt areas so its average annual snowfall is around 40 inches, far less than areas on the western side / shoreline areas of the Great Lakes.

In an "average" winter in Metro Detroit, you can assume there will be the following:
- About 3 snowstorms that will make travel, commerce, driving, air travel difficult and basically shut things down until they can clear the roads. Typically takes snowfall amounts of 8-12" plus but more or less snowfall rates of more than 1-2" per hour where snow removal crews cannot keep up and clear / dig-out until after the storm. Everything basically returns to normal within about 12-24 hours after the snow ends.

- About 10-15 minor snow events. The vast majority of our snowfalls come in 1-3" increments from passing clippers or cold fronts. Usually light snowfall throughout the day or short snow squall snow events over a few hours. Nothing the airport cannot keep up with in terms of deicing or runway clearing. Particularly a non-event if it happens during overnight hours. Driving may be slowed down, and minor gridlock if they hit during the peak rush-hours. Overall though not a big deal.

- About 40-50 days that may require deicing. This can be from snowfall, frost, or icing conditions but airport operations have to make plans to assume for snow removal or deicing activities. Outside of snow events, the majority of deicing is from RON aircract accumulating frost or from icing accumulation during arrival/decent.

Some years more, like winter 2013-2014, and other years less like winter 2016-2017 was pretty mild.

The biggest difference for airports like DTW and MSP is that because of the frequent need for snow removal and deicing operations they have the equipment, and also there is ample airfield and landside capacity that operations can "catch-up" even in delay or reduced flow operations.
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: Value of an all-weather hub

Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:33 am

The answer to your question in the last paragraph is NO.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Value of an all-weather hub

Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:21 am

..You could argue that the mere geography of the hubs you mention does in fact play a pretty unavoidable role in the issue altogether.

Unfortunately you can't really do much if big chunks of your network revolve around the North-East corridor and the northernmost States...

I agree that some hubs are better than others at dealing with weather, but I suppose a great all-weather hub in, say, So-Cal is nice and easy to operate from...
 
theginge
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Re: Value of an all-weather hub

Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:14 pm

Even if you have all the de icing equipment you need if the snow is falling heavily enough it will take you a lot longer, thus slowing down the movements at the airport. On very rare occasions it may fall quicker than you can safely get it off the plane. Then you have the snow you have to clear from the runways and taxiways.
Last edited by theginge on Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
xdlx
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Re: Value of an all-weather hub

Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:17 pm

I ve always thought the ability for a hub to be efficient is to not exceed the capacity of the traffic in BAD WX. All hubs are planned for FAIR WX days and when things deteriorate, EVERY airline scrambles. IMHO ATL has become UNBEARABLE cause when airport was built, DL flew a larger volume of WB aircrafts and the # of flights thru was less than today. The systematic down gage to Narrowbodies and with Hourly departures to LGA, PHL, ORD, not to name every mayor FL market they serve. ATL can go downhill QUICKLY. Throw a winter MIX into ATL and the place can come to a screeching halt. :stirthepot:
Last edited by xdlx on Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Value of an all-weather hub

Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:19 pm

Welcome to DTW, a modern, well-equipped all-weather airport.
All posts are just opinions.
 
xdlx
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Re: Value of an all-weather hub

Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:22 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Welcome to DTW, a modern, well-equipped all-weather airport.


Best De-icing of lower 48..... 2nd ONLY to YYZ
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Value of an all-weather hub

Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:31 pm

DTW was experiencing one hour flight delays for deicing at a slow point in the schedule (mid afternoon) on 12/24. I was in it.

There is no such thing as an all-weather busy hub airport that functions as if without weather. If one recognizes that weather is 'short-term changes in atmosphere', LAX doesn't get much weather - conditions are pretty stable. DFW and ATL are slowed by thunderstorms and ice. SFO is slowed by fog. EWR/LGA/JFK are slowed by everything because operations on ground and in air are so close to capacity so many hours of the day. Run the hub list as you like.
 
IPFreely
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Re: Value of an all-weather hub

Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:04 pm

WWads wrote:
I think DL has the best hubs in terms of weather.

-MSP and DTW are generally snow-proof, and don't see a ton of severe thunderstorms.
-ATL is vulnerable to storms, but doesn't see that much snow.
-SLC rarely has issues, same for LAX.
-SEA can have fog and wind issues, but generally does fine.

Only real weak points for DL are JFK and LGA

AA and UA both have ORD, so they automatically lose. AA isn't as reliant on ORD as UA is, but they have PHL and DCA which easily suffer from weather and ATC issues.


The big problem for DL is two-fold: (1) ATL can't handle any snow or even minor weather when it does happen, and (2) for some reason DL wants almost every passenger to connect in ATL instead of balancing their hubs so a disruption at one doesn't bring their entire system down, like other airlines do.
 
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klm617
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Re: Value of an all-weather hub

Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:13 pm

chepos wrote:
WWads wrote:
I think DL has the best hubs in terms of weather.

-MSP and DTW are generally snow-proof, and don't see a ton of severe thunderstorms.
-ATL is vulnerable to storms, but doesn't see that much snow.
-SLC rarely has issues, same for LAX.
-SEA can have fog and wind issues, but generally does fine.

Only real weak points for DL are JFK and LGA

AA and UA both have ORD, so they automatically lose. AA isn't as reliant on ORD as UA is, but they have PHL and DCA which easily suffer from weather and ATC issues.



Except if ATL has a storm cloud over it, forget it. Things go downhill
fast. And you forgot JFK and LGA (they see winter weather).


Detroit is Delta's best all weather hub when the weather gets bad it almost never stop the traffic from flowing.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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klm617
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Re: Value of an all-weather hub

Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:15 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
DTW was experiencing one hour flight delays for deicing at a slow point in the schedule (mid afternoon) on 12/24. I was in it.

There is no such thing as an all-weather busy hub airport that functions as if without weather. If one recognizes that weather is 'short-term changes in atmosphere', LAX doesn't get much weather - conditions are pretty stable. DFW and ATL are slowed by thunderstorms and ice. SFO is slowed by fog. EWR/LGA/JFK are slowed by everything because operations on ground and in air are so close to capacity so many hours of the day. Run the hub list as you like.


Yes but DTW is still up and running if there would be ice in ATL expect a ground stop and thousands of displaced passengers that won't happen at DTW as it's a well oiled watch during the winter.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Value of an all-weather hub

Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:20 pm

Lets cut the DTW fanboyism down a bit, since MSP gets very similar weather, is actually generally colder and performs just as well as DTW.
SLC does very well and has fewer weather disruption events that either DTW and MSP.
 
airportlover
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Re: Value of an all-weather hub

Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:48 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
I think a huge issue with this storm is NOT the snow , its the high winds foretasted. NYC, BOS, BTV, MHT are all suppose to see some pretty strong winds for a long period of time. I haven't looked at PHL, but i bet its gonna fall in the same boat. Very high winds predicted and that is why your flight was really cancelled.

I have had so many winter delays at ORD i cant even list it. I would hardly say ORD operates well in winter weather. It suffers from the same issues the northeast airports do. Its very busy and basically operates at maximum capacity at all times. The airlines are early cancelling flights now to prevent people from getting stuck in those airports and to resume normal schedules ASAP.

JFK/LGA/EWR have fantastic facilities for snow removal. They have the equipment needed for snow removal. I was at EWR on that big storm a few years ago the PANYNJ dug out of a huge storm quickly. The problem is LGA and the NYC airports in general operate at 105% capacity at all times so snow just like rain, fog, wind creates alot of delays since the airport runs at max capacity. The air space is too crowded. I think the NYC airports in general handle snow pretty well the problem is congestion, but its the same as anything else that limits landings/takeoffs from being 100% delays happen.


I completely agree with this. EWR/JFK/LGA are already overcrowded and delay-prone in perfect weather. When the snow starts coming down, especially at fast rates, they just can't keep up. The equipment is not the issue; the capacity and over scheduling is.
 
stlgph
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Re: Value of an all-weather hub

Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:03 pm

The value of your "all weather hub" equals jacksquat if your spokes are helpless.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
slcguy
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Re: Value of an all-weather hub

Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:09 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Lets cut the DTW fanboyism down a bit, since MSP gets very similar weather, is actually generally colder and performs just as well as DTW.
SLC does very well and has fewer weather disruption events that either DTW and MSP.


While there is no such thing as an all weather airport in the snow belt, SLC comes close. Aircraft deicing is handled by a large contingent of deice trucks operated by Delta, private contractor and FBOs. There are 4 large runway end deice pads plus 2 supplemental pads with 2 more pads scheduled to be built. All pads have dedicated storm drain systems feeding a glycol recovery plant for environmental reasons. Airport snow removal is handled by full time airport employees available 24/7/365 which includes two full runway/taxiway elements (conga lines), ramp and roadway crews. SLC's snow removal ability is very highly regarded and award winning in the airport industry. Longest closure at the airport of 6 1/2 hours occurred on Feb. 25, 1998 after nearly 19" in less than 24 hours. SLC also has a SMGCS airfield lighting system allowing Cat III operations in low visibility down to 300 RVR for aircraft capable of such operation.
 
airportlover
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Re: Value of an all-weather hub

Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:07 pm

WWads wrote:
I think DL has the best hubs in terms of weather.

-MSP and DTW are generally snow-proof, and don't see a ton of severe thunderstorms.
-ATL is vulnerable to storms, but doesn't see that much snow.
-SLC rarely has issues, same for LAX.
-SEA can have fog and wind issues, but generally does fine.

Only real weak points for DL are JFK and LGA

AA and UA both have ORD, so they automatically lose. AA isn't as reliant on ORD as UA is, but they have PHL and DCA which easily suffer from weather and ATC issues.


I agree. MSP and DTW are exceptionally good with snow. ORD is a disaster in any weather, and UA heavily relies on ORD. EWR is horrible in good weather and catastrophic in snow. They have the equipment, but they can't keep up. The winds also wreak havoc on the runways at EWR. LGA is even worse because of its reliance on narrow bodies and regional jets. JFK is significantly better, but it does have more international widebody flights that get preferential treatment. Operationally, JFK is the crown jewel of the NYC airports. However, customs at EWR is better. PHL is not too bad at all. Neither is BOS. IAD is much better than DCA, and that benefits UA over AA. IAH is very good in terms of delays. But DFW is better. MIA is also good in terms of weather delays, but ATC is another story. SFO has fog and rain, so it has pretty bad delays. SLC and DEN operate really well as they are not too crowded and can handle the snow. They also do not get very much ice or wind, just a lot of snow. PHX is great, and LAX has great weather too, but ATC and capacity there is terrible. Overall by airline's hubs in terms of delays (best to worst)

UA:
IAH
DEN
LAX
SFO
IAD
ORD
EWR

DL:
SLC
DTW
MSP
RDU
SEA
BOS
LAX
CVG
ATL
JFK
LGA

AA:
PHX
CLT
DFW
MIA
DCA
LAX
ORD
JFK
LGA
 
evank516
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Re: Value of an all-weather hub

Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:04 pm

JFK has de-icing pads, de-icing at LGA is done at the gate. ORD is well equipped as well. The problem with JFK and LGA is not that they can't handle winter weather but rather the volume of traffic that they see. NYC is the most densely populated city in the country (and is located in the middle of the most crowded airspace in the country), don't forget that, and JFK and LGA are not immune to such density. If JFK and LGA weren't so crowded it would be much, much smoother. LGA is also INSIDE JFK's airspace, so that poses an issue. JFK has adequate spacing for each set of parallel runways to operate.
 
WWads
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Re: Value of an all-weather hub

Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:26 pm

evank516 wrote:
JFK has de-icing pads, de-icing at LGA is done at the gate. ORD is well equipped as well. The problem with JFK and LGA is not that they can't handle winter weather but rather the volume of traffic that they see. NYC is the most densely populated city in the country (and is located in the middle of the most crowded airspace in the country), don't forget that, and JFK and LGA are not immune to such density. If JFK and LGA weren't so crowded it would be much, much smoother. LGA is also INSIDE JFK's airspace, so that poses an issue. JFK has adequate spacing for each set of parallel runways to operate.


NYC and the whole NEC in general would really benefit from ATC modernization. Even when weather is perfect every airport in that regional is still susceptible to ATC meltdowns. When you mix in bad weather...
 
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william
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Re: Value of an all-weather hub

Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:42 pm

Funny how ATL gets a bad rap just because a couple bad weather days makes the national evening news. Most days, most days ATL goes about its business with incredible efficiency, even through moderate rain storms.

Keep this point in mind, those of us from the south may the white stuff falling from the sky maybe at max one or two weeks of the year. So please excuse us for not having the knowledge of dealing with something we rarely see (you definitely do not want to see how drive we drive on the white stuff). The last time I checked NYC airports are closed and BOS your next. But lo and behold, ATL and DFW are running smoothly except for delays to and from the.........Northeast.
 
lavalampluva
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Re: Value of an all-weather hub

Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:06 pm

Didn't PHX have a lot of issues last summer because of it being too hot?
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
ibthebigd
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Re: Value of an all-weather hub

Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:08 pm

I always fly Southwest in the winter if i am going west and connect in PHX or LAS, So I don't have to stress about weather
 
WN732
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Re: Value of an all-weather hub

Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:13 pm

ericm2031 wrote:
UA has DEN, which handles the weather very well with the spacing and quantity of runways. Even if everything shuts down, it can recover very quickly.

And then they have SFO and EWR, which are both complete messes with the slightest bit of anything.

LAX is congested but it doesn’t get much in terms of weather that impacts it. I think the previous gate caps have even helped it from getting overly congested on the ATC side...gate holds seem to be the biggest problem.


SFO can be a complete boondoggle even on a clear sunny day.
 
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AVLAirlineFreq
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Re: Value of an all-weather hub

Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:15 pm

One other thing not mentioned here is the impact of getting employees TO the airport during winter weather. During a winter storm, that becomes a lot harder in places like ATL and DFW, regardless of the airport's ability to cope on-site.
 
alasizon
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Re: Value of an all-weather hub

Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:23 pm

lavalampluva wrote:
Didn't PHX have a lot of issues last summer because of it being too hot?


Two days, and it only effected a few banks of Regional flights which was relatively minor and known about in advance. I believe only about 800 passengers were not pre-reaccomodated via other hubs and earlier/later flights.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
drdisque
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Re: Value of an all-weather hub

Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:04 pm

The first things that ORD will be building in the space currently occupied by Runway 14/32 after it closes are dedicated de-icing pads. The main reason that DTW and MSP run so well in poor weather is the adequate dedicated de-icing pads (and the separation of runways that allows simultaneous CAT III ILS).

Now ORD can run 3x simultaneous CAT III ILS, the major chokepoint is de-icing and gate access - aircraft have to be be deiced at the gate, so they spend more time at the gate, which means aircraft have to wait for gates, which causes the hold areas to fill up, which results in a GDP or ground stop since there's nowhere to put the planes even if you can get them on the ground. The longer it snows the worse it gets.
 
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neomax
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Re: Value of an all-weather hub

Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:09 pm

DTW is easily the best in snow season, just flew through a week ago and it was 10 minutes from pushback from takeoff. To push, taxi, and deice, all in the snow, this is insanely quick, and way faster than any other airport I've experienced. They have an enormous fleet of snowplows and deice trucks that are CONSTANTLY clearing snow around the airport. I actually took a 30 second time-lapse of this, and you can see dozens of snowplows driving across the tarmac, and as soon as the plane pushes, within seconds, a snowplow starts clearing the gate. This is the kind of stuff that makes DTW the most efficient snow airport.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AdQGb-Zlmk
 
e38
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Re: Value of an all-weather hub

Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:51 pm

EarlyLateORD, I don't really understand the premise of your question, the value of an all-weather hub. I don't really think something like that exists.
All the major airlines in the United States have established strategic hubs in various parts of the country to facilitate connections both domestically and internationally and to support O&D traffic to a certain extent. I don't think most of them developed hubs specifically based on weather patterns but rather on geographical location, population, airport facilities, etc.
Every airport is going to have some form of challenging weather conditions from time to time, be it thunderstorms, snow, high wind, ice, etc.
What the airlines have done is to analyze varying weather conditions at their hubs and then put in place contingency plans on how to operate under those challenging conditions. It is not the same for every airline and every hub. For example, at Delta, some of the posters have mentioned that de-icing operations are very good at Minneapolis, Detroit, and Salt Lake City. Atlanta, on the other hand, doesn't get ice very often, but rather than invest in an enormous amount of de-icing equipment that may get used only a few times each year, they have decided that it is more cost effective to reduce schedules through Atlanta when de-icing is warranted (consistent with de-icing throughput), i.e., "take a hit" temporarily on flight operations. These are business decisions.
Also, I don't know many travelers who really consider the weather at certain hubs when making travel plans (we, of course, as aviation enthusiasts do), but most folks I know simply choose flights based on the least expensive fare and/or the most efficient connection they can get so as to get from Point A to Point B in the shortest amount of time, or on their "loyalty" to certain airlines. As such, I don't think the traveling public in general puts a "value" on certain airlines based on their hub cities.

Hope this helps. Seems like pretty common sense to me.

e38
 
chicawgo
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Re: Value of an all-weather hub

Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:50 pm

airportlover wrote:
WWads wrote:
Overall by airline's hubs in terms of delays (best to worst)



Where on EARTH are you getting these lists from? They're completely wrong! As one quick example, ORD outperformed SFO 11 out of 12 months in 2017 -- often by more than 10 points!

To you and the others saying ORD is a disaster, have you even been there in the last two years? ORD has been operating close to full capacity during rain and/or snow since the new runways were finished. The only time there are issues anymore are in strong winds. I encourage you to see the difference!
 
airportlover
Posts: 87
Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:42 pm

Re: Value of an all-weather hub

Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:53 pm

chicawgo wrote:
airportlover wrote:
WWads wrote:
Overall by airline's hubs in terms of delays (best to worst)



Where on EARTH are you getting these lists from? They're completely wrong! As one quick example, ORD outperformed SFO 11 out of 12 months in 2017 -- often by more than 10 points!

To you and the others saying ORD is a disaster, have you even been there in the last two years? ORD has been operating close to full capacity during rain and/or snow since the new runways were finished. The only time there are issues anymore are in strong winds. I encourage you to see the difference!


Yes, I have been there recently, and my experiences have not been excellent. However, they haven't been good at SFO either.
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3638
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: Value of an all-weather hub

Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:13 am

lavalampluva wrote:
Didn't PHX have a lot of issues last summer because of it being too hot?


Only a couple of CRJ/E170-190 series planes that were never updated with higher temp operational charts. All the Boeing & Airbus flights went fine. After the big heat issue in June of 1990 all the charts were updated to over 118 degree temps. As operational charts for over 118 degree out of Phoenix was never done before that, planes could not legally land & T-O.
 
User avatar
kordcj
Posts: 279
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:18 pm

Re: Value of an all-weather hub

Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:08 am

chicawgo wrote:
airportlover wrote:
WWads wrote:
Overall by airline's hubs in terms of delays (best to worst)



Where on EARTH are you getting these lists from? They're completely wrong! As one quick example, ORD outperformed SFO 11 out of 12 months in 2017 -- often by more than 10 points!

To you and the others saying ORD is a disaster, have you even been there in the last two years? ORD has been operating close to full capacity during rain and/or snow since the new runways were finished. The only time there are issues anymore are in strong winds. I encourage you to see the difference!

It’s the typical a.net hatred of ORD. Once the deicing pad is complete, winter ops won’t be a problem. I believe the last time the city closed the airport due to snow was some time in the 70s. If I recall, O’Hare alone has more snow removal equipment than most states.
The most obvious proof for intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't tried to contact us.
 
evank516
Posts: 2192
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:15 am

Re: Value of an all-weather hub

Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:32 pm

WWads wrote:
evank516 wrote:
JFK has de-icing pads, de-icing at LGA is done at the gate. ORD is well equipped as well. The problem with JFK and LGA is not that they can't handle winter weather but rather the volume of traffic that they see. NYC is the most densely populated city in the country (and is located in the middle of the most crowded airspace in the country), don't forget that, and JFK and LGA are not immune to such density. If JFK and LGA weren't so crowded it would be much, much smoother. LGA is also INSIDE JFK's airspace, so that poses an issue. JFK has adequate spacing for each set of parallel runways to operate.


NYC and the whole NEC in general would really benefit from ATC modernization. Even when weather is perfect every airport in that regional is still susceptible to ATC meltdowns. When you mix in bad weather...


You are 100% correct. It needs to be done around here because the slightest fart in the tower puts the NYC Airspace into chaos.
 
AAvgeek744
Posts: 750
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:08 pm

Re: Value of an all-weather hub

Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:36 am

This thread is ridiculous.
 
MO11
Posts: 1564
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 5:07 pm

Re: Value of an all-weather hub

Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:55 am

evank516 wrote:
LGA is also INSIDE JFK's airspace, so that poses an issue. JFK has adequate spacing for each set of parallel runways to operate.


LGA isn't inside JFK airspace. JFK runways cross and the 4/22s are close together.

evank516 wrote:
WWads wrote:
NYC and the whole NEC in general would really benefit from ATC modernization. Even when weather is perfect every airport in that regional is still susceptible to ATC meltdowns. When you mix in bad weather...


You are 100% correct. It needs to be done around here because the slightest fart in the tower puts the NYC Airspace into chaos.


What exactly do you think modernization is going to get you?
 
SkyVoice
Posts: 432
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:34 pm

Re: Value of an all-weather hub

Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:15 pm

(SARCASM ALERT!) Gee, ain't it a shame that there's no place on planet Earth where airplanes fly perfectly and schedules are kept to the minute regardless of weather conditions!

(REALITY ALERT!) Humans can level mountains, divert rivers, drill tunnels under the ground and fly into outer space, but we can not and we will not bend the weather to suit our whims! (Well, no time soon, anyway.) In this case, the atmosphere is the final frontier. And, as long as the airlines' number one priority is SAFETY, making operational allowances for inclement weather will always be the proper thing to do. Most passengers know that and respect that, but there's always a few soreheads who are sure that the airlines invented weather delays just to inconvenience them! I know what I'm talking about, because I used to be a Ticket Agent and a Gate Agent.
"Tough times never last. Tough people do." - Dr. Robert H. Schuller
 
YYZLGA
Posts: 444
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2016 4:28 am

Re: Value of an all-weather hub

Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:17 am

MO11 wrote:
What exactly do you think modernization is going to get you?


If it could allow independent parallel approaches in instrument conditions on runways less than 4,300 feet apart, it could be pretty huge for JFK in particular. Of course the airlines will just add enough flights to get back to today's level of congestion.

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