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admanager
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Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:34 am

"a hub must serve the small markets within its region, no doubt in my mind"
News flash... ATL is apparently not a hub since they don't serve FLO or HXD in neighboring South Carolina, both of which get AA service from CLT.

Mods..please lock this thread.
 
B752OS
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Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:39 pm

Massport is currently expanding Terminal B at BOS. The project is slated to be complete in early 2019. Once that happens WN will be moving into Terminal B opening up 5 mainline gates for DL to use. I believe these gates can all handle a plane up to a 752/321 comfortably. DL has already stated that want all of Terminal A for themselves and plan on expanding in BOS. We'll have to wait and see what that expansion brings. I don't think it's going to be massive, but it's safe to say new cities will be served and hopefully DL is successful. Who knows, maybe come 2019 or 2020 we have a economic downturn and it throws a wrench in DL's plans (along with every airlines plans).
 
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tlecam
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Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:49 pm

tphuang wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
tphuang wrote:

We will see obviously, but I would be shocked if b6 doesn't announce Tatl plans this year. Whereas in Seattle, there really isn't any realistic possiblity that as would start Tatl or tpac flying.


That's a lot of speculation. Even if announced, B6 won't have the aircraft for some time (read: they don't even have those aircraft on order). DL isn't connecting much in BOS, BOS is an O&D operation primarily (yes, there will be some connections). I'm also failing to see your point - is it that DL won't grow at BOS because of some hypothetical B6 TATL hub in BOS in a few years' time? If so, its a pretty weak premise. DL has the first mover advantage and can connect to a lot of European destinations through CDG and AMS. I just don't see your focus on international flights at SEA vs. BOS.


Well the fleet review is coming up this quarter and they have to make a decision for 2019 on a321lr and have been known to study a new mint configuration for a while. This is widely reported.

One big advantage that Delta has over as and b6 is international flying. clearly if b6 starts flying to London and Dublin, that reduces the advantage. I don't see as starting to fly to Tokyo or London, do you? As for first mover, b6 was a late participant in the premium transcon market, but that hasn't prevented them from becoming a significant player.

Give it time, we will see how this all plays out.


I do think that JetBlue will launch TATL from Boston at some point. In some ways, they have the same problem as the legacies - the international expansion at BOS over the past 5 years or so leaves very little low hanging fruit to go after. I think they've waited a bit too long on the opportunity. Having said that, I have no doubt that there is still an opportunity there. It will be interesting to see what the strategy is - do they fly to LHR or LGW? I would guess that SNN and DUB would be on their radar, as well as possibly RKV.
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fastmover
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Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:33 pm

tlecam wrote:
tphuang wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:

That's a lot of speculation. Even if announced, B6 won't have the aircraft for some time (read: they don't even have those aircraft on order). DL isn't connecting much in BOS, BOS is an O&D operation primarily (yes, there will be some connections). I'm also failing to see your point - is it that DL won't grow at BOS because of some hypothetical B6 TATL hub in BOS in a few years' time? If so, its a pretty weak premise. DL has the first mover advantage and can connect to a lot of European destinations through CDG and AMS. I just don't see your focus on international flights at SEA vs. BOS.


Well the fleet review is coming up this quarter and they have to make a decision for 2019 on a321lr and have been known to study a new mint configuration for a while. This is widely reported.

One big advantage that Delta has over as and b6 is international flying. clearly if b6 starts flying to London and Dublin, that reduces the advantage. I don't see as starting to fly to Tokyo or London, do you? As for first mover, b6 was a late participant in the premium transcon market, but that hasn't prevented them from becoming a significant player.

Give it time, we will see how this all plays out.


I do think that JetBlue will launch TATL from Boston at some point. In some ways, they have the same problem as the legacies - the international expansion at BOS over the past 5 years or so leaves very little low hanging fruit to go after. I think they've waited a bit too long on the opportunity. Having said that, I have no doubt that there is still an opportunity there. It will be interesting to see what the strategy is - do they fly to LHR or LGW? I would guess that SNN and DUB would be on their radar, as well as possibly RKV.



But one of the reasons those international flights are successful (aer Lingus) is because of the jetblue feed. The open architecture plan has worked for both sides but clearly jetblue thinks it can do better with the quick stuff over the Atlantic. It will be interesting to see what blue does. I would be shocked if they didn’t go over the Atlantic given how much they have talked about it.
 
commavia
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Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:54 pm

tlecam wrote:
I would suggest that AA has a significant O&D presence at LGA. AA's preferred connecting hub in the northeast is Philly, not LGA. AA's presence at LGA is aimed at corporate contracts and O&D travelers.


Indeed. Contrary to popular mythology, AA actually still commands a fairly strong presence with O&D in and out of NYC metro, built on the carrier's still fairly strong schedule presence at both LGA and JFK. To the point of this thread - the same is also true of several other, smaller metro areas without a network carrier hub presence, including BOS, RDU, BNA and AUS.

airbazar wrote:
I think the biggest challenge for DL is getting enough A332's to fly BOS-Asia routes. No other airplane in DLs fleet would work. In the meantime, a KE A332 or 789 from ICN could get things started.


I doubt it's much of a challenge, as I doubt it's much of a realistic prospect. At this point, the primary - I'd say only - plausible prospect for a Delta flight from BOS to Asia isn't really a Delta flight at all but rather a daily Korean flight BOS-ICN as part of the transpacific JV.

wedgetail737 wrote:
If DL is calling SEA a hub, then SEA is a DL hub...no matter what any of you armchair CEO's want to think as the definition of a hub. Every airline has their own definition of a hub, focus city or connection complex.


Not that the whole back and forth on whether SEA is a "real" hub ultimately matters, but I do agree in general with the point that the term "hub" is often overused or misused to suit individual airlines' marketing purposes. To me, a true "hub" is an operation of significant scale and network diversity with flights consciously, and primarily, scheduled to facilitate connections. That is not Delta at BOS or RDU, for instance. But by any objective measure, that absolutely is Delta at SEA. I agree with others that Delta's growth at SEA has been fairly impressive in recent years and the operation Delta has there today not only provides strong penetration into local SEA business O&D, but also ample connectivity to destinations both domestic (Pacific Northwest and Alaska) and international (Asia).
 
bagoldex
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Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:57 pm

fastmover wrote:
tlecam wrote:
tphuang wrote:

Well the fleet review is coming up this quarter and they have to make a decision for 2019 on a321lr and have been known to study a new mint configuration for a while. This is widely reported.

One big advantage that Delta has over as and b6 is international flying. clearly if b6 starts flying to London and Dublin, that reduces the advantage. I don't see as starting to fly to Tokyo or London, do you? As for first mover, b6 was a late participant in the premium transcon market, but that hasn't prevented them from becoming a significant player.

Give it time, we will see how this all plays out.


I do think that JetBlue will launch TATL from Boston at some point. In some ways, they have the same problem as the legacies - the international expansion at BOS over the past 5 years or so leaves very little low hanging fruit to go after. I think they've waited a bit too long on the opportunity. Having said that, I have no doubt that there is still an opportunity there. It will be interesting to see what the strategy is - do they fly to LHR or LGW? I would guess that SNN and DUB would be on their radar, as well as possibly RKV.



But one of the reasons those international flights are successful (aer Lingus) is because of the jetblue feed. The open architecture plan has worked for both sides but clearly jetblue thinks it can do better with the quick stuff over the Atlantic. It will be interesting to see what blue does. I would be shocked if they didn’t go over the Atlantic given how much they have talked about it.


Aer Lingus has been successful in Boston since David Neeleman was in diapers. The relationship with JetBlue is an asset but it's hardly critical.
 
bagoldex
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Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:20 pm

NickolayAv wrote:
mpdpilot wrote:
That is exactly why Delta is adding those routes right now. Do you want to know why Delta wants to be the global airline in BOS? Because they don't want to give jetBlue the opportunity to become that global airline. jetBlue flying TATL (which is an eventuality, just like southwest flying internationally), would cut into DL's TATL a lot, not because of the price but just out of sheer overlap. JB is going to start out of BOS and JFK, DL already has a large presence at JFK, but they can certainly add stuff from BOS to fill the gap, and even better that they can do it with low risk 757 and 767 aircraft. BOS-Asia will happen with DL, but BOS-Europe is where they need to stake their claim before anyone else does.

I don't see where they're looking to expand though, because I don't think they will risk adding an Asia flight, :( and for Europe they will only be able to add to markets that are already served because Delta won't risk trying a new destination. I do not see JB starting any TATL flights in the next 2-3 years and if they do start those flights it will be on fairly small planes that won't make such a large dent in the market share to make other carriers stop service, like DL.


Seoul on a Korean 789 with the JV seems highly likely. As for Europe, maybe 757s to Brussels and Berlin(seasonal)? Milan might be a bit adventurous but historically it was a larger market than Boston-Lisbon. Frankfurt could also be a large enough market for Delta and Lufthansa to coexist.
 
ShinyAndChrome
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Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:07 pm

Something that I think has been somewhat overlooked in this discussion is the point-of-sale breakdown in terms of BOS-international demand. While I don’t have any hard figures, I wouldn’t be surprised if the balance skews in many cases towards international point-of-sale, which combined with foreign carriers’ hub strength on the non-BOS end, makes it structurally easier for international carriers to launch BOS routes compared to US carriers.

I think it’s telling that DL’s Transatlantic franchise out of BOS is focused on either big US point-of-sale destinations (LHR, DUB), strong JV hubs (AMS), or both (CDG).
 
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NickolayAv
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Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:32 pm

bagoldex wrote:
NickolayAv wrote:
mpdpilot wrote:
That is exactly why Delta is adding those routes right now. Do you want to know why Delta wants to be the global airline in BOS? Because they don't want to give jetBlue the opportunity to become that global airline. jetBlue flying TATL (which is an eventuality, just like southwest flying internationally), would cut into DL's TATL a lot, not because of the price but just out of sheer overlap. JB is going to start out of BOS and JFK, DL already has a large presence at JFK, but they can certainly add stuff from BOS to fill the gap, and even better that they can do it with low risk 757 and 767 aircraft. BOS-Asia will happen with DL, but BOS-Europe is where they need to stake their claim before anyone else does.

I don't see where they're looking to expand though, because I don't think they will risk adding an Asia flight, :( and for Europe they will only be able to add to markets that are already served because Delta won't risk trying a new destination. I do not see JB starting any TATL flights in the next 2-3 years and if they do start those flights it will be on fairly small planes that won't make such a large dent in the market share to make other carriers stop service, like DL.


Seoul on a Korean 789 with the JV seems highly likely. As for Europe, maybe 757s to Brussels and Berlin(seasonal)? Milan might be a bit adventurous but historically it was a larger market than Boston-Lisbon. Frankfurt could also be a large enough market for Delta and Lufthansa to coexist.

I do agree that Delta could probably take advantage of the 757 in Boston for TATL flights like UA in EWR and open some new routes, especially with some gates in Terminal A being capable for the aircraft.
"If you want to be a millionaire, start with a billion dollars and launch a new airline"-Richard Branson
 
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Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:34 pm

bagoldex wrote:
NickolayAv wrote:
mpdpilot wrote:
That is exactly why Delta is adding those routes right now. Do you want to know why Delta wants to be the global airline in BOS? Because they don't want to give jetBlue the opportunity to become that global airline. jetBlue flying TATL (which is an eventuality, just like southwest flying internationally), would cut into DL's TATL a lot, not because of the price but just out of sheer overlap. JB is going to start out of BOS and JFK, DL already has a large presence at JFK, but they can certainly add stuff from BOS to fill the gap, and even better that they can do it with low risk 757 and 767 aircraft. BOS-Asia will happen with DL, but BOS-Europe is where they need to stake their claim before anyone else does.

I don't see where they're looking to expand though, because I don't think they will risk adding an Asia flight, :( and for Europe they will only be able to add to markets that are already served because Delta won't risk trying a new destination. I do not see JB starting any TATL flights in the next 2-3 years and if they do start those flights it will be on fairly small planes that won't make such a large dent in the market share to make other carriers stop service, like DL.


Seoul on a Korean 789 with the JV seems highly likely. As for Europe, maybe 757s to Brussels and Berlin(seasonal)? Milan might be a bit adventurous but historically it was a larger market than Boston-Lisbon. Frankfurt could also be a large enough market for Delta and Lufthansa to coexist.

I do agree that Delta could utilize some 757 from Boston the way UA does in EWR for some small TATL flights. Especially if some gates in Terminal A can be used by a 757.
"If you want to be a millionaire, start with a billion dollars and launch a new airline"-Richard Branson
 
fastmover
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Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:48 pm

bagoldex wrote:
fastmover wrote:
tlecam wrote:

I do think that JetBlue will launch TATL from Boston at some point. In some ways, they have the same problem as the legacies - the international expansion at BOS over the past 5 years or so leaves very little low hanging fruit to go after. I think they've waited a bit too long on the opportunity. Having said that, I have no doubt that there is still an opportunity there. It will be interesting to see what the strategy is - do they fly to LHR or LGW? I would guess that SNN and DUB would be on their radar, as well as possibly RKV.



But one of the reasons those international flights are successful (aer Lingus) is because of the jetblue feed. The open architecture plan has worked for both sides but clearly jetblue thinks it can do better with the quick stuff over the Atlantic. It will be interesting to see what blue does. I would be shocked if they didn’t go over the Atlantic given how much they have talked about it.


Aer Lingus has been successful in Boston since David Neeleman was in diapers. The relationship with JetBlue is an asset but it's hardly critical.




I went and looked at my post again where did I say it was critical?
Point was it has worked for both carriers and JetBlue has been very open about tits transatlantic ideas. I definitely think if jetblue does not go after it Delta will add more international flights from Boston.

As for the Aer Lingus and jetblue we may see allies become enemies.

https://www.independent.ie/business/iri ... 46730.html
 
twicearound
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Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:47 pm

All gates in Term A can "handle" the 752. In fact, Delta used to operate widebodies (767-300/400) from the gates Southwest is currently occupying.
 
airbazar
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Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:08 pm

commavia wrote:
airbazar wrote:
I think the biggest challenge for DL is getting enough A332's to fly BOS-Asia routes. No other airplane in DLs fleet would work. In the meantime, a KE A332 or 789 from ICN could get things started.


I doubt it's much of a challenge, as I doubt it's much of a realistic prospect. At this point, the primary - I'd say only - plausible prospect for a Delta flight from BOS to Asia isn't really a Delta flight at all but rather a daily Korean flight BOS-ICN as part of the transpacific JV.

I wouldn't be so sure. DL has stated that they want to get bigger at BOS. As of right now DL serves 4 European destinations from BOS. Clearly DL is not afraid to have intl flying from BOS. They will had routes if their corporate clients want it. LHR has been operating at 60% LF for years. The problem is, they would have to pull an A332 from an existing route. Once more A359's arrive, I can see that happening but not right now. I don't think Asian routes from BOS are much less realistic as European routes from SEA are.

ShinyAndChrome wrote:
Something that I think has been somewhat overlooked in this discussion is the point-of-sale breakdown in terms of BOS-international demand. While I don’t have any hard figures, I wouldn’t be surprised if the balance skews in many cases towards international point-of-sale, which combined with foreign carriers’ hub strength on the non-BOS end, makes it structurally easier for international carriers to launch BOS routes compared to US carriers.

I would be shocked if the POS skewes toward international. What is driving this huge international expansion is the local economy. All the companies that we have based in greater Boston, along with all the Universities generate a lot of traffic. Boston is not really a huge international tourist destination. For the last 10 days I've woken up to temps in the single digits (F). There's really no reason for people to come to Boston 9 months out of the year, unless they're forced to LOL
 
commavia
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Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:14 pm

airbazar wrote:
I wouldn't be so sure. DL has stated that they want to get bigger at BOS. As of right now DL serves 4 European destinations from BOS. Clearly DL is not afraid to have intl flying from BOS. They will had routes if their corporate clients want it. LHR has been operating at 60% LF for years. The problem is, they would have to pull an A332 from an existing route. Once more A359's arrive, I can see that happening but not right now. I don't think Asian routes from BOS are much less realistic as European routes from SEA are.


I'm not "sure," but I personally think it's unlikely we'll see Delta flying nonstop BOS-Asia anytime in the foreseeable future. The market is large and growing but, as already said, it's also very well served already with multiple nonstop competitors to multiple major Asian hubs. At this point, given the realities of Delta's global route network, the only Asian hub that really makes any plausible sense would be ICN and - as said - I am very confident that the Delta network will, indeed, including a nonstop BOS-ICN in the not too distant future. I just don't think it will be operated with Delta metal - a Korean-operated flight, under the auspices of the JV, seems far more sensible and plausible. I don't think Delta's existing BOS-Europe flying is relevant to the realistic prospects of a hypothetical Delta-operated A330 BOS-Asia.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:28 pm

commavia wrote:
airbazar wrote:
I wouldn't be so sure. DL has stated that they want to get bigger at BOS. As of right now DL serves 4 European destinations from BOS. Clearly DL is not afraid to have intl flying from BOS. They will had routes if their corporate clients want it. LHR has been operating at 60% LF for years. The problem is, they would have to pull an A332 from an existing route. Once more A359's arrive, I can see that happening but not right now. I don't think Asian routes from BOS are much less realistic as European routes from SEA are.


I'm not "sure," but I personally think it's unlikely we'll see Delta flying nonstop BOS-Asia anytime in the foreseeable future. The market is large and growing but, as already said, it's also very well served already with multiple nonstop competitors to multiple major Asian hubs. At this point, given the realities of Delta's global route network, the only Asian hub that really makes any plausible sense would be ICN and - as said - I am very confident that the Delta network will, indeed, including a nonstop BOS-ICN in the not too distant future. I just don't think it will be operated with Delta metal - a Korean-operated flight, under the auspices of the JV, seems far more sensible and plausible. I don't think Delta's existing BOS-Europe flying is relevant to the realistic prospects of a hypothetical Delta-operated A330 BOS-Asia.


Can any DL 330 do BOS-Japan/ICN reliably? IINM DTW-NGO is their longest route now, and anything ex-BOS is longer.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
ShinyAndChrome
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Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:00 pm

airbazar wrote:
commavia wrote:
airbazar wrote:
I think the biggest challenge for DL is getting enough A332's to fly BOS-Asia routes. No other airplane in DLs fleet would work. In the meantime, a KE A332 or 789 from ICN could get things started.


I doubt it's much of a challenge, as I doubt it's much of a realistic prospect. At this point, the primary - I'd say only - plausible prospect for a Delta flight from BOS to Asia isn't really a Delta flight at all but rather a daily Korean flight BOS-ICN as part of the transpacific JV.

I wouldn't be so sure. DL has stated that they want to get bigger at BOS. As of right now DL serves 4 European destinations from BOS. Clearly DL is not afraid to have intl flying from BOS. They will had routes if their corporate clients want it. LHR has been operating at 60% LF for years. The problem is, they would have to pull an A332 from an existing route. Once more A359's arrive, I can see that happening but not right now. I don't think Asian routes from BOS are much less realistic as European routes from SEA are.

ShinyAndChrome wrote:
Something that I think has been somewhat overlooked in this discussion is the point-of-sale breakdown in terms of BOS-international demand. While I don’t have any hard figures, I wouldn’t be surprised if the balance skews in many cases towards international point-of-sale, which combined with foreign carriers’ hub strength on the non-BOS end, makes it structurally easier for international carriers to launch BOS routes compared to US carriers.

I would be shocked if the POS skewes toward international. What is driving this huge international expansion is the local economy. All the companies that we have based in greater Boston, along with all the Universities generate a lot of traffic. Boston is not really a huge international tourist destination. For the last 10 days I've woken up to temps in the single digits (F). There's really no reason for people to come to Boston 9 months out of the year, unless they're forced to LOL


Yet they still do. If these reports from convention and visitors bureau is any indication, BOS is one of the top destinations in the US for international travelers and traffic has only been growing over time.

https://www.bostonusa.com/media/statist ... isitation/

In any case, I think it’s helpful to also bring up that as a whole, the US is a larger inbound market than outbound. In the case of specific countries like China, this is even more skewed.
 
airbazar
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Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:29 pm

ShinyAndChrome wrote:
Yet they still do. If these reports from convention and visitors bureau is any indication, BOS is one of the top destinations in the US for international travelers and traffic has only been growing over time.

https://www.bostonusa.com/media/statist ... isitation/

What? That web page states: "While overseas visitors only represent 7% of overall visitation to Boston" We get some. And yes we do get a lot of Chinese visitors.
Top in the U.S. doesn't mean much. Top what? Outside of NYC, Florida, California, and Vegas there's a big drop off for everyone else. Las Vegas sees 2x more foreign visitors than Boston.
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:48 pm

Cubsrule wrote:

Can somebody remind me why I’m feeding the troll?


Because you have a burning need to proclaim DTW the most underserved airport in the world? :rotfl:
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airportlover
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Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:51 pm

wedgetail737 wrote:
mpdpilot wrote:
airportlover wrote:
What I am saying is that DL may serve the major markets, but there are small cities throughout the country, even within the PNW, that are not served by DL. There are connections, but a hub must serve the small markets within its region, no doubt in my mind. And the major markets have many other options on DL. The point of a hub is to serve distinct connection opportunities. Seattle basically does not do that. It could grow into that, but it is not currently at that level. Also, why should we trust the airlines. Just cuz DL calls it a hub does not mean it is. Everyday, they rip people off and lie to make money because they are greedy corporations. For example, SFO has a similarly terrible domestic connection location, but UA makes up for it with more Asian and Australian destinations, not to mention Hawaii. DL does not offer these options through SEA. It is not their fault, but SEA is capacity-constrained and DL does not dominate there like UA does at SFO.


What routes are you talking about specifically? SFO-XIY? From SEA DL flies to PEK, HKG, ICN, PVG, and NRT. Outside of Chicago, LA, and NYC, SEA and SFO are the only two other cities to have that kind of traffic from one airline (DTW might now that I think about it).

I am not sure what you mean by distinct connection opportunities either. For DL there are plenty of distinct connections through SEA especially from the PNW region and if you mean from other airlines, well there aren't very many airports in the US with only one airline so I don't get that either.

Also, I feel like most people don't have quite the understanding of just how sparsely populated Western North America is. There just plain aren't that many small markets within a 1hr flying time of SEA compared with ATL or DFW or ORD or DTW. Looking at DL's network from SEA, I can't really see more than one or two small PNW markets that DL doesn't serve, can you list any?

And finally you have to come back to SEA is space limited so for every CRJ flight that ties up a gate, you have to give up a 737 to ORD for example. So the fact that DL is flying to a lot of small airports in the region verse just serving the large markets suggest that DL is operating a hub verse a focus city.

Compare SEA and RDU. RDU has flights to non-hub airports like SEA, but none of them are small. Columbus, OH might be the smallest city served from RDU. The other "kinda' small airports are all super O&D heavy (read Florida).

I even mapped them all out on gcmap for you:

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=SEA-ATL%0D ... =wls&DU=mi


I can name a lot of PNW cities that DL does NOT serve: Wenatchee, Yakima, Walla Walla, Pullman, Pocatello, Idaho Falls, Port Angeles, Bellingham, Moses Lake, Missoula, Redding, Eureka, Klamath Falls, Crescent City...


This is exactly the list I was talking about and was about to formulate.
 
airportlover
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Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:58 pm

NickolayAv wrote:
bagoldex wrote:
NickolayAv wrote:
I don't see where they're looking to expand though, because I don't think they will risk adding an Asia flight, :( and for Europe they will only be able to add to markets that are already served because Delta won't risk trying a new destination. I do not see JB starting any TATL flights in the next 2-3 years and if they do start those flights it will be on fairly small planes that won't make such a large dent in the market share to make other carriers stop service, like DL.


Seoul on a Korean 789 with the JV seems highly likely. As for Europe, maybe 757s to Brussels and Berlin(seasonal)? Milan might be a bit adventurous but historically it was a larger market than Boston-Lisbon. Frankfurt could also be a large enough market for Delta and Lufthansa to coexist.

I do agree that Delta could utilize some 757 from Boston the way UA does in EWR for some small TATL flights. Especially if some gates in Terminal A can be used by a 757.


Yes, but I think DL should be cautious with growth at BOS. They can add a few European flights but not to the scale of EWR. They have to be careful to not pull from JFK. Also, DL may just mainly want to serve O&D markets from BOS, like AA at JFK/LGA.
 
ShinyAndChrome
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Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:21 pm

airbazar wrote:
ShinyAndChrome wrote:
Yet they still do. If these reports from convention and visitors bureau is any indication, BOS is one of the top destinations in the US for international travelers and traffic has only been growing over time.

https://www.bostonusa.com/media/statist ... isitation/

What? That web page states: "While overseas visitors only represent 7% of overall visitation to Boston" We get some. And yes we do get a lot of Chinese visitors.
Top in the U.S. doesn't mean much. Top what? Outside of NYC, Florida, California, and Vegas there's a big drop off for everyone else. Las Vegas sees 2x more foreign visitors than Boston.


All I’m trying to say is that #10 in one of the largest inbound destination countries and the world’s largest economy is still substantial. And that it shouldn’t be that surprising if, for example, the 500,000+ Chinese visitors to BOS in 2015 outnumbered the corresponding number of BOS area residents traveling to China. Therefore, for example, Chinese carriers would naturally have an easier time justifying a BOS-China flight compared to US carriers.
 
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NickolayAv
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Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:41 am

airportlover wrote:
NickolayAv wrote:
bagoldex wrote:

Seoul on a Korean 789 with the JV seems highly likely. As for Europe, maybe 757s to Brussels and Berlin(seasonal)? Milan might be a bit adventurous but historically it was a larger market than Boston-Lisbon. Frankfurt could also be a large enough market for Delta and Lufthansa to coexist.

I do agree that Delta could utilize some 757 from Boston the way UA does in EWR for some small TATL flights. Especially if some gates in Terminal A can be used by a 757.


Yes, but I think DL should be cautious with growth at BOS. They can add a few European flights but not to the scale of EWR. They have to be careful to not pull from JFK. Also, DL may just mainly want to serve O&D markets from BOS, like AA at JFK/LGA.

I don't think that Delta will be taking the traffic from their JFK flights if they add flights at BOS, they are more likely to be taking away from the European carriers because most people would prefer getting to Europe and then switching to a flight, than flying away from BOS and then taking a longer flight to Europe.
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airbazar
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Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:11 pm

NickolayAv wrote:
airportlover wrote:
NickolayAv wrote:
I do agree that Delta could utilize some 757 from Boston the way UA does in EWR for some small TATL flights. Especially if some gates in Terminal A can be used by a 757.


Yes, but I think DL should be cautious with growth at BOS. They can add a few European flights but not to the scale of EWR. They have to be careful to not pull from JFK. Also, DL may just mainly want to serve O&D markets from BOS, like AA at JFK/LGA.

I don't think that Delta will be taking the traffic from their JFK flights if they add flights at BOS, they are more likely to be taking away from the European carriers because most people would prefer getting to Europe and then switching to a flight, than flying away from BOS and then taking a longer flight to Europe.

Exactly. Boston is by itself a large O&D market. People here don't want to backtrack to NYC if they don't have to. It's also a decent connecting hub as B6 and its foreign partners have found out. That is why foreign carriers have had such a huge success here. It also helps that connecting at JFK/EWR in Winter is like playing russian roulette. DL is doing exactly what they should do which is to add international routes from BOS where possible so as not to lose those customers to the competition. As a global carrier, their competition is not AA/UA/B6. Their competition is also BA, TP, EK, QR, etc. They are greatly handicapped not only by the size of their terminal facility which can't really handle widebodies conveniently, but also by the lack of CBP which limits greatly the amount of international flights that they can have. However, with the addition of 100 A321NEO's I fully expect to see additional TATL routes from BOS.
Cubsrule wrote:
Can any DL 330 do BOS-Japan/ICN reliably? IINM DTW-NGO is their longest route now, and anything ex-BOS is longer.

Good question. I think it can. BOS-NRT for example should be comparable to SEA-HKG which is actually a longer flight timewise than DTW-NGO.
SEA-HKG:
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL ... /KSEA/VHHH
DTW-NGO:
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL ... /KDTW/RJGG
 
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N717TW
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Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:29 pm

airbazar wrote:
N717TW wrote:
BOS will grow but won't become a real hub (i.e. a complex designed around connecting traffic) simply because of JFK. NYC just has that much more O&D and therefore can support 2nd tier European cities and smaller US that DL would struggle to fill from Boston.

So you don't consider DUB a second tier European city?
DL already does a lot of connections in Boston, regardless of what they call it and it's clear from them that they intend to grow it. A hub in JFK or LGA doesn't negate a hub (or connecting operations), in BOS. The size will never be the same simply because the airport can't handle it but I fully expect their BOS expansion to continue, both domestically, international, and thru their partners. I fully expect to see a few DL A321NEOs flying to Europe from BOS in the future.


DUB is definitely not a second tier city from BOS. The number of Irish-Catholics in the Boston area is staggering and as the old saying in Ireland goes "Dublin is closer to Boston than Berlin" there are a significant number of cultural, family and business connections between the two cities. From an airline perspective, BOS-DUB is like California-Hawaii: You can always fill the plane, but you may not like the amount of money you make doing so.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:30 pm

airbazar wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Can any DL 330 do BOS-Japan/ICN reliably? IINM DTW-NGO is their longest route now, and anything ex-BOS is longer.

Good question. I think it can. BOS-NRT for example should be comparable to SEA-HKG which is actually a longer flight timewise than DTW-NGO.
SEA-HKG:
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL ... /KSEA/VHHH
DTW-NGO:
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL ... /KDTW/RJGG


Excellent point. BOS-NRT would probably be okay but I’m not sure it makes sense from a network perspective.

Does the geopolitical situation in Korea require adding fuel or designating alternates that make ICN routes more difficult than the mileage would suggest?
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commavia
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Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:37 pm

airbazar wrote:
Good question. I think it can. BOS-NRT for example should be comparable to SEA-HKG which is actually a longer flight timewise than DTW-NGO.


Okay, but Delta operating BOS-NRT seems highly implausible at this point. Delta no longer even flies NYC-NRT and that's not only a dramatically larger local market but Delta is also, needless to say, far larger and stronger in NYC than in BOS. As said, at this point, the only plausible BOS-Asia nonstop I can see for Delta is BOS-ICN, but I think that is better served - for a host of operational and financial reasons - by Korean (through the JV) than Delta itself. We'll see.
 
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adamh8297
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Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:42 pm

I'm struggling to come up with ideas for other DL transatlantic routes in BOS and what I came up with seems like it should be seasonal additions. This assuming AZ remains the sick of man of Europe for the next decade.

BOS-EDI/GLA - could make the case VS does this in a similar manner to BOS-MAN.
BOS-MAN take over from and increase frequency
BOS-SNN AA had done this in the past

50/50 on these

BOS-ATH summer traffic is there but problems with Greece transatlantic flights have been discussed enough recently - DL does interline with A3 but with a crazy interline rate (1-stops to JTR from JFK price at 2K for summer versus $1K for the JFK-ATH you could buy a flex ticket on A3 for cheaper).
BOS-PDL - why not step on S4's throat - can be done with almost narrow body.

Not a chance in hell
BOS -Eastern European Skyteam partners. PRG doesn't have enough connectivity.
BOS-Spain - just codeshare with UX!!!
BOS-BRU - too close to AMS
BOS-GVA/MXP - not large enough
BOS-KEF- FI is the problem not WW - lots of value with FI less nickel and diming - well entrenched in BOS.
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AF, AM, BA, B6, CA, CO, CX, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, OU, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WE, WN

2019: CX BOS-HKG, WE HKG-HKT, CA HKT-PEK-EWR, B6 EWR-BOS
 
wedgetail737
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Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:46 pm

airbazar wrote:
Can any DL 330 do BOS-Japan/ICN reliably? IINM DTW-NGO is their longest route now, and anything ex-BOS is longer.

Good question. I think it can. BOS-NRT for example should be comparable to SEA-HKG which is actually a longer flight timewise than DTW-NGO.
SEA-HKG:
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL ... /KSEA/VHHH
DTW-NGO:
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL ... /KDTW/RJGG[/quote]

The SEA-HKG flight is going from an A330-200 to a 777-200ER. With all of the existing Asian traffic at BOS, is there still enough of a market for a DL 777 on the BOS-HKG route?
 
Capn
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Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:47 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

I log gate-to-gate times for my flights, and just pulled every ATL-CHI or CHI-ATL flight I've ever taken. Actual gate-to-gate times and equipment are below.

1:35 M90
1:35 M88
2:01 M88
1:33 E70
1:50 M88
2:04 M88
1:42 319


Have you calculated in the hour time difference because I checked the DL schedule and there is not one flight with a less then 2 hour arrival and departure time. 1:35 is impossible you'd have to be on the concord to make that trip in 1:35 minutes


Yes. These are elapsed times. How many times have you flown the route?



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chrisnh
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Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:55 pm

I doubt it's much of a challenge, as I doubt it's much of a realistic prospect. At this point, the primary - I'd say only - plausible prospect for a Delta flight from BOS to Asia isn't really a Delta flight at all but rather a daily Korean flight BOS-ICN as part of the transpacific JV.

I agree. KE will come to Boston and the route will be theirs.
 
StuckInCA
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Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:24 pm

airportlover wrote:


2) I agree, but frequent flyers will basically always prefer the larger carrier with more nonstop destinations, and that is undeniably AS at SEA. Unless you fly solely internationally, AS most likely works better for you.


I can't agree. I fly out of SEA a lot for work and so do my colleagues. We've all made the switch from AS to DL in the past couple of years. I haven't flown a single flight on AS in over 2 years. Don't get me wrong, I love AS, but I haven't gone anywhere DL couldn't get me and when you include international travel, it is a compelling choice.
 
wedgetail737
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Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:30 pm

chrisnh wrote:
I doubt it's much of a challenge, as I doubt it's much of a realistic prospect. At this point, the primary - I'd say only - plausible prospect for a Delta flight from BOS to Asia isn't really a Delta flight at all but rather a daily Korean flight BOS-ICN as part of the transpacific JV.

I agree. KE will come to Boston and the route will be theirs.


We'll see if KE will relaunch BOS-ICN any time soon...since it discontinued that flight a couple of years ago. Or if Asiana would be interested in that route with an A350.
 
wedgetail737
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Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:40 pm

StuckInCA wrote:
airportlover wrote:


2) I agree, but frequent flyers will basically always prefer the larger carrier with more nonstop destinations, and that is undeniably AS at SEA. Unless you fly solely internationally, AS most likely works better for you.


I can't agree. I fly out of SEA a lot for work and so do my colleagues. We've all made the switch from AS to DL in the past couple of years. I haven't flown a single flight on AS in over 2 years. Don't get me wrong, I love AS, but I haven't gone anywhere DL couldn't get me and when you include international travel, it is a compelling choice.


Oh I'm sure there were a significant move from AS to DL, especially when DL decided to REALLY invest in SEA. In terms of customer service, DL is striving to be a much "friendlier" airline than in the past. If DL didn't think it could convert a significant number of AS fliers to them, I don't think DL would have even tried SEA. They would have left it to LAX. One major move that I thought DL was committed to building SEA (other than adding numerous domestic cities) was closing of the SFO-NRT route. That traffic was diverted to SEA.

DL continues to expand SEA, more on a modest level obviously, by replacing RJ's with mainline service like SFO-SEA and MKE-SEA. DL has also been adding flights for more like an AS-style hub. There still some that I wish would go mainline...even with 717's. That would be SEA-SNA and SEA-SAN. At least, DL has removed all of the CRJ's out of SEA. I believe all of the RJ flying is done with 175's...much better airplanes! The only real thing that is limiting DL's expansion is the lack of gate space. I noticed that Sun Country has moved from the A concourse to the D-concourse.

I think once the N-concourse expansion is complete, there will be more D-gates available. So the likes of NK, Sun Country and maybe F9 will move to D. That will free up 1 or 2 gates for DL.
 
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NickolayAv
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Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:04 am

wedgetail737 wrote:
The SEA-HKG flight is going from an A330-200 to a 777-200ER. With all of the existing Asian traffic at BOS, is there still enough of a market for a DL 777 on the BOS-HKG route?

Yes, there is a lot of traffic for BOS-HKG, but two B777 flights from both CX and DL is definitely way overkill for the amount of traffic on this route.
"If you want to be a millionaire, start with a billion dollars and launch a new airline"-Richard Branson
 
B752OS
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Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:52 am

airbazar wrote:
I would be shocked if the POS skewes toward international. What is driving this huge international expansion is the local economy. All the companies that we have based in greater Boston, along with all the Universities generate a lot of traffic. Boston is not really a huge international tourist destination. For the last 10 days I've woken up to temps in the single digits (F). There's really no reason for people to come to Boston 9 months out of the year, unless they're forced to LOL


To be fair, we haven't had this many days of sub 20 degree weather in over 100 years. Everywhere in the Northeast and Midwest is experiencing severe temperatures. The weather in this area is very bearable 7-8 months out of the year. Also, Boston (while not on the level of NYC or Los Angeles) does draw a pretty good amount of foreign tourists and that is a big reason why you see seasonal flights (April through October) to Europe.
 
tphuang
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Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:10 am

NickolayAv wrote:
wedgetail737 wrote:
The SEA-HKG flight is going from an A330-200 to a 777-200ER. With all of the existing Asian traffic at BOS, is there still enough of a market for a DL 777 on the BOS-HKG route?

Yes, there is a lot of traffic for BOS-HKG, but two B777 flights from both CX and DL is definitely way overkill for the amount of traffic on this route.

Also remember that cx wins not only hkg point of sale but also a lot of bos point of sale due to aa ff. That's the problem facing delta opening any routes to Asia that's not Seoul.
 
alfa164
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Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:48 am

commavia wrote:
As said, at this point, the only plausible BOS-Asia nonstop I can see for Delta is BOS-ICN, but I think that is better served - for a host of operational and financial reasons - by Korean (through the JV) than Delta itself. We'll see.


I cannot disagree, but I wonder - since it is a JV - what advantages you see KE having over DL. I would think KE's 787 would be the primary reason, but with only 5 in house, I am not sure if any could be pulled from their current destinations. And DL's growing presence in BOS might make it somewhat stronger - although, there again, with a JV, it shouldn't make much difference.
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ocracoke
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Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:53 am

airbazar wrote:
They are greatly handicapped not only by the size of their terminal facility which can't really handle widebodies conveniently, but also by the lack of CBP which limits greatly the amount of international flights that they can have. However, with the addition of 100 A321NEO's I fully expect to see additional TATL routes from BOS.


Could someone in the know tell me how it looks over at E during the international rush these days?

For some reason, I keep thinking that I've read that international arrival gates are pretty much booked up during the inbound/outbound push. Is that correct?

If so, and DL adds a few more international inbounds the next few years (using up what little space there might be left at E....if I understand the situation as it now stands), where would any potential B6 inbound trans Atlantic plane park? Would B6 be forced to have 10am and 9pm arrivals into BOS?

Or perhaps when B6 announces they are finally going to start flying trans Atlantic, that will be what finally pushes Massport to open a CBP in terminal A, like is was planned almost 17 years ago?
 
B752OS
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Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:08 pm

ocracoke wrote:
airbazar wrote:
They are greatly handicapped not only by the size of their terminal facility which can't really handle widebodies conveniently, but also by the lack of CBP which limits greatly the amount of international flights that they can have. However, with the addition of 100 A321NEO's I fully expect to see additional TATL routes from BOS.


Could someone in the know tell me how it looks over at E during the international rush these days?

For some reason, I keep thinking that I've read that international arrival gates are pretty much booked up during the inbound/outbound push. Is that correct?

If so, and DL adds a few more international inbounds the next few years (using up what little space there might be left at E....if I understand the situation as it now stands), where would any potential B6 inbound trans Atlantic plane park? Would B6 be forced to have 10am and 9pm arrivals into BOS?

Or perhaps when B6 announces they are finally going to start flying trans Atlantic, that will be what finally pushes Massport to open a CBP in terminal A, like is was planned almost 17 years ago?


Terminal E is very busy during the rush periods. Massport has preliminary plans to expand Terminal E which would add 7 gates once the full project is finished. No shovels have hit the ground yet and Massport has yet to firm up everything (assuming everything goes to plan we're looking at 2024-2025 by the time the entire project is done) . DL has their international ops depart from Terminal A. Once Terminal B is expanded and WN leaves their 5 mianline gates and moves over to Terminal B, that may open up so flexibility for DL to add flights. The issues is that Terminal A cannot handle a 333/332 without blocking off adjacent gates. The satelitte concourse in A, which has 10 gates, can comfortably fit a 752/321 at every gate. Anything larger requires adjacent gates to be blocked off.
 
airbazar
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Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:19 pm

alfa164 wrote:
I cannot disagree, but I wonder - since it is a JV - what advantages you see KE having over DL.

Operational reasons, I think. ICN is KE's hub and BOS would be a spoke and therefore it's a lot easier for them to schedule the flight than DL somehow having to figure out how to get an airplane to BOS to operate the route.
ocracoke wrote:
For some reason, I keep thinking that I've read that international arrival gates are pretty much booked up during the inbound/outbound push. Is that correct?

If so, and DL adds a few more international inbounds the next few years (using up what little space there might be left at E....if I understand the situation as it now stands), where would any potential B6 inbound trans Atlantic plane park? Would B6 be forced to have 10am and 9pm arrivals into BOS?

DL's TATL arrivals are at mid-day, between 12-1pm, before the international rush really kicks in. I would expect additional arrivals to be at a similar time.
commavia wrote:
Okay, but Delta operating BOS-NRT seems highly implausible at this point. Delta no longer even flies NYC-NRT and that's not only a dramatically larger local market but Delta is also, needless to say, far larger and stronger in NYC than in BOS

Fair point which to me indicates that they clearly don't think they can compete on the route. However, from BOS DL would immediately be the dominant airline on the route, where TYO is said to be New England's largest premium market in Asia, with a quasi-hub on both ends and it's large FF base.
 
commavia
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Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:36 pm

alfa164 wrote:
I cannot disagree, but I wonder - since it is a JV - what advantages you see KE having over DL. I would think KE's 787 would be the primary reason, but with only 5 in house, I am not sure if any could be pulled from their current destinations.

airbazar wrote:
Operational reasons, I think. ICN is KE's hub and BOS would be a spoke and therefore it's a lot easier for them to schedule the flight than DL somehow having to figure out how to get an airplane to BOS to operate the route.


This.

I don't think there's any question that, at least to start, the 787 would be the ideal aircraft for the route - operationally and economically. But beyond that, I also think Korean would be more optimal as the operating carrier from the perspective of scheduling. In terms of overall hub connectivity, the optimal schedule for a hypothetical ICN-BOS-ICN route would be similar to Korean's existing schedule for KE81/82 at JFK - which is to say, a late morning arrival and late morning/early afternoon departure. That's a lot easier for Korean to do, with minimal ground time, compared to Delta who wouldn't necessarily have as easy a time scheduling a sufficiently-capable longhaul widebody into BOS at those times, and then may have the issue of optimizing the return schedule out of ICN without a huge sit time or RON.

airbazar wrote:
However, from BOS DL would immediately be the dominant airline on the route, where TYO is said to be New England's largest premium market in Asia, with a quasi-hub on both ends and it's large FF base.


Respectfully, I'm not sure how you figure that Delta would "immediately be the dominant airline" on BOS-NRT given that the AA/JAL JV is larger than Delta at both ends of the route, JAL provides significant onward connectivity all across East Asia that Delta cannot match, and JAL operates the flight with a highly fuel efficient aircraft.
 
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NickolayAv
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Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:39 pm

B752OS wrote:
ocracoke wrote:
airbazar wrote:
They are greatly handicapped not only by the size of their terminal facility which can't really handle widebodies conveniently, but also by the lack of CBP which limits greatly the amount of international flights that they can have. However, with the addition of 100 A321NEO's I fully expect to see additional TATL routes from BOS.


Could someone in the know tell me how it looks over at E during the international rush these days?

For some reason, I keep thinking that I've read that international arrival gates are pretty much booked up during the inbound/outbound push. Is that correct?

If so, and DL adds a few more international inbounds the next few years (using up what little space there might be left at E....if I understand the situation as it now stands), where would any potential B6 inbound trans Atlantic plane park? Would B6 be forced to have 10am and 9pm arrivals into BOS?

Or perhaps when B6 announces they are finally going to start flying trans Atlantic, that will be what finally pushes Massport to open a CBP in terminal A, like is was planned almost 17 years ago?


Terminal E is very busy during the rush periods. Massport has preliminary plans to expand Terminal E which would add 7 gates once the full project is finished. No shovels have hit the ground yet and Massport has yet to firm up everything (assuming everything goes to plan we're looking at 2024-2025 by the time the entire project is done) . DL has their international ops depart from Terminal A. Once Terminal B is expanded and WN leaves their 5 mianline gates and moves over to Terminal B, that may open up so flexibility for DL to add flights. The issues is that Terminal A cannot handle a 333/332 without blocking off adjacent gates. The satelitte concourse in A, which has 10 gates, can comfortably fit a 752/321 at every gate. Anything larger requires adjacent gates to be blocked off.

Can any gates handle a 767 without blocking off additional gates?
"If you want to be a millionaire, start with a billion dollars and launch a new airline"-Richard Branson
 
tphuang
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Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:59 pm

airbazar wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
I cannot disagree, but I wonder - since it is a JV - what advantages you see KE having over DL.

Operational reasons, I think. ICN is KE's hub and BOS would be a spoke and therefore it's a lot easier for them to schedule the flight than DL somehow having to figure out how to get an airplane to BOS to operate the route.
ocracoke wrote:
For some reason, I keep thinking that I've read that international arrival gates are pretty much booked up during the inbound/outbound push. Is that correct?

If so, and DL adds a few more international inbounds the next few years (using up what little space there might be left at E....if I understand the situation as it now stands), where would any potential B6 inbound trans Atlantic plane park? Would B6 be forced to have 10am and 9pm arrivals into BOS?

DL's TATL arrivals are at mid-day, between 12-1pm, before the international rush really kicks in. I would expect additional arrivals to be at a similar time.
commavia wrote:
Okay, but Delta operating BOS-NRT seems highly implausible at this point. Delta no longer even flies NYC-NRT and that's not only a dramatically larger local market but Delta is also, needless to say, far larger and stronger in NYC than in BOS

Fair point which to me indicates that they clearly don't think they can compete on the route. However, from BOS DL would immediately be the dominant airline on the route, where TYO is said to be New England's largest premium market in Asia, with a quasi-hub on both ends and it's large FF base.

They are not going To fly to nrt for the same reason they don't out of NYC. Hnd is the preferred airport. One world flyers like myself are always going to pick jl ahead of dl. So dl will have hard time competing against that.
 
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ERJ170
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Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:06 pm

So does DL do much as far as JV or partner flights into their major stations? I don’t see them using their power (I.e. shares in the company) to get their JV or partners to fly into their bases... I wish they would do that more as I would love to see WestJet and Aeromexico into RDU... they are in their other stations but not RDU.. sad
Aiming High and going far..
 
jsteeves3
Posts: 100
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Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:53 pm

BOS layout stinks for a hub airline. It is made for decent sized operations from many carriers. It is not meant for a hub airline, sadly. Terminal A is already almost at capacity. Every time I am in there the place is a zoo and check-in and security are flooded with people. When WN moves out, ya that will create some space but the space is not mean't for heavy's. BOS could support more TATL and asian flights but they don't have the room. It stinks because delta could build up Boston into a LGA size and destination hub, but what really needs to happen is the international routes. There is barely any space for expansion at BOS. The only way BOS could accommodate an airline hub is by switching around airlines terminals. Delta could take over most if not all B while ua and aa shrink and take over a along with wn. Every airline at BOS uses there gates at their upper capacity level except ua. Ua has around 10 gates at BOS. I could see them shrinking down to 5 at BOS and operating out of half of A-SAT, maybe a couple gates on the other side. AA takes over the main Terminal A and WN stays where they are now. NK will remain where they are. Lol this is so confusing lot of info to get out from a 14 year old :)
 
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NickolayAv
Posts: 450
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Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:30 pm

jsteeves3 wrote:
BOS layout stinks for a hub airline. It is made for decent sized operations from many carriers. It is not meant for a hub airline, sadly. Terminal A is already almost at capacity. Every time I am in there the place is a zoo and check-in and security are flooded with people. When WN moves out, ya that will create some space but the space is not mean't for heavy's. BOS could support more TATL and asian flights but they don't have the room. It stinks because delta could build up Boston into a LGA size and destination hub, but what really needs to happen is the international routes. There is barely any space for expansion at BOS. The only way BOS could accommodate an airline hub is by switching around airlines terminals. Delta could take over most if not all B while ua and aa shrink and take over a along with wn. Every airline at BOS uses there gates at their upper capacity level except ua. Ua has around 10 gates at BOS. I could see them shrinking down to 5 at BOS and operating out of half of A-SAT, maybe a couple gates on the other side. AA takes over the main Terminal A and WN stays where they are now. NK will remain where they are. Lol this is so confusing lot of info to get out from a 14 year old :)

Agreed Boston pretty much can't expand its physical size in any way because on one side there is the sea and if they try to fill it to add land it will be stopped by people concerned for the environment and expanding into where people live will be stopped by people living there. The only real other option I see for Boston is doing what EWR is doing by rebuilding terminals to make them more efficient with the space they are given, but that would wreak havoc on the airport during reconstruction.
"If you want to be a millionaire, start with a billion dollars and launch a new airline"-Richard Branson
 
twicearound
Posts: 176
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:01 pm

jsteeves3 wrote:
BOS layout stinks for a hub airline. It is made for decent sized operations from many carriers. It is not meant for a hub airline, sadly. Terminal A is already almost at capacity. Every time I am in there the place is a zoo and check-in and security are flooded with people. When WN moves out, ya that will create some space but the space is not mean't for heavy's. BOS could support more TATL and asian flights but they don't have the room. It stinks because delta could build up Boston into a LGA size and destination hub, but what really needs to happen is the international routes. There is barely any space for expansion at BOS. The only way BOS could accommodate an airline hub is by switching around airlines terminals. Delta could take over most if not all B while ua and aa shrink and take over a along with wn. Every airline at BOS uses there gates at their upper capacity level except ua. Ua has around 10 gates at BOS. I could see them shrinking down to 5 at BOS and operating out of half of A-SAT, maybe a couple gates on the other side. AA takes over the main Terminal A and WN stays where they are now. NK will remain where they are. Lol this is so confusing lot of info to get out from a 14 year old :)


While I agree that splitting intl arrivals and departures between term A/E is far from ideal, Massport and DL seem to do it just fine. As far as room for expansion, DL is currently operating around 100 flights a day from Logan, with their goal to reach 150 within the next two years. Once they take over the remaining 5 gates in A they will have more than enough gate space to reach the 150 mark. That translates into a 33% increase in DL flights, so your statement that there is no room for expansion in false. Also while A does get busy during the AM rush and in the early evening, there are periods throughout the day where the place is a ghost town. Also gates 13 and 18 were designed for heavies with 21/22 being redesigned back into a single gate.
 
jsteeves3
Posts: 100
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:00 pm

Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:51 pm

When I say expand, I mean the total amount of gate space, not DL... there only hope after they receive WN's gates would be to expand into later hours 8pm-
 
tphuang
Posts: 5331
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:23 pm

twicearound wrote:
jsteeves3 wrote:
BOS layout stinks for a hub airline. It is made for decent sized operations from many carriers. It is not meant for a hub airline, sadly. Terminal A is already almost at capacity. Every time I am in there the place is a zoo and check-in and security are flooded with people. When WN moves out, ya that will create some space but the space is not mean't for heavy's. BOS could support more TATL and asian flights but they don't have the room. It stinks because delta could build up Boston into a LGA size and destination hub, but what really needs to happen is the international routes. There is barely any space for expansion at BOS. The only way BOS could accommodate an airline hub is by switching around airlines terminals. Delta could take over most if not all B while ua and aa shrink and take over a along with wn. Every airline at BOS uses there gates at their upper capacity level except ua. Ua has around 10 gates at BOS. I could see them shrinking down to 5 at BOS and operating out of half of A-SAT, maybe a couple gates on the other side. AA takes over the main Terminal A and WN stays where they are now. NK will remain where they are. Lol this is so confusing lot of info to get out from a 14 year old :)


While I agree that splitting intl arrivals and departures between term A/E is far from ideal, Massport and DL seem to do it just fine. As far as room for expansion, DL is currently operating around 100 flights a day from Logan, with their goal to reach 150 within the next two years. Once they take over the remaining 5 gates in A they will have more than enough gate space to reach the 150 mark. That translates into a 33% increase in DL flights, so your statement that there is no room for expansion in false. Also while A does get busy during the AM rush and in the early evening, there are periods throughout the day where the place is a ghost town. Also gates 13 and 18 were designed for heavies with 21/22 being redesigned back into a single gate.


I'm sure DL would like even more gates, but the extra 5 gates will gave them plenty of space to expand. And if they need 10 more gates just so that they have enough for the rush hours and then use them sporadically during the day, it's not fair on the other carriers.

At this point, I'm still curious how Delta will add another 50 flights to its schedule. And people are already worried that they will be gate constrained when Delta themselves still have to figure out how to add another 50 flights.

At this point, at least B6 looks like they need more gates to expand to 200 flights that they've been aiming for. And they are currying favors left and right with MassPort just to get to that point. And I think WN will be very happy to get more gates too.

jsteeves3 wrote:
When I say expand, I mean the total amount of gate space, not DL... there only hope after they receive WN's gates would be to expand into later hours 8pm-

clearly there are other point of days they can also add flights, but they don't think it can be done in a high yielding way. Not exactly fair for other airlines for DL to get more gates when they will only do 7 turns a day per gate (150/23).
 
evank516
Posts: 2153
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:15 am

Re: Delta at SEA, BOS, and RDU

Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:31 pm

airportlover wrote:
evank516 wrote:
airportlover wrote:

But I would argue most people flying on AA are not NYC-based. Obviously there are exceptions (like if there are really cheap fares or great flight times), but most New Yorkers prefer UA out of EWR or DL/JetBlue out of Kennedy. LGA is not very popular with suburbanites. Only city people prefer LGA. Otherwise, EWR or JFK is preferred.


LGA is 50/50 with us suburbanites. As a Long Islander, my preference is JFK (as it is for most of those that I know), but we will go to LGA for either a better fare or a better schedule. For instance, I flew to Nashville last weekend and flew out of LGA because the schedule offering better suited my needs, but I checked JFK first.


Yeah, that's a fair statement. It does take a significantly cheaper fair to get people to go to LGA with the construction and traffic. Also, it depends where on Long Island, of course. The South Shore greatly prefers JFK. So does Eastern Long Island as it is easier to take the Southern State or Sunrise than deal with the LIE/Grand Central/Northern State traffic. North Shore people, especially in Nassau County are split. I would say the Port Washington line prefers JFK, but uses LGA often because it is so close and easy.


I'm on the South Shore adjacent to the 5 towns so JFK is by far the closest. Ironically as a kid we always used LGA, but that was the 90s when JFK didn't offer what it does today. The construction is what is killing my desire to use LGA right now. It was a total nightmare last week. The advantage to those on the Port Washington line for LGA is the direct access to Woodside and the Q70 bus. The PW line is the only one to bypass Jamaica so the AirTrain to JFK is much less convenient as opposed to the others.

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