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soflaflyer
Posts: 173
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:35 pm

Re: DFW 2018 Developments

Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:27 am

BA777FO wrote:
The 787-10 is probably right-size for capacity but with no cabin crew bunks they'll probably be used elsewhere. The 77W would be ideal, but it's BA so who knows?!

Surprising, is that just a BA thing or will no one have crew rest areas? What is the logic behind this? Does the 787-10 have that much of a limited range?
 
soflaflyer
Posts: 173
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:35 pm

Re: DFW 2018 Developments

Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:29 am

BA777FO wrote:
The 787-10 is probably right-size for capacity but with no cabin crew bunks they'll probably be used elsewhere. The 77W would be ideal, but it's BA so who knows?!

Surprising, is that just a BA thing or will no one have crew rest areas? What is the logic behind this? Does the 787-10 have that much of a limited range?
 
klm672
Posts: 2563
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 1999 6:09 am

Re: DFW 2018 Developments

Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:58 am

Heard in another thread that WOW AIr is going away at the end of this month. I wonder if that means that Icelandair will go away, and then AA will probably discontinue the route as well.
 
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chepos
Posts: 7273
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 9:40 am

Re: DFW 2018 Developments

Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:45 pm

klm672 wrote:
Heard in another thread that WOW AIr is going away at the end of this month. I wonder if that means that Icelandair will go away, and then AA will probably discontinue the route as well.


At least for next year AA has already stated they will be operating DFW KEF.
Fly the Flag!!!!
 
mfe777
Posts: 285
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 5:35 am

Re: DFW 2018 Developments

Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:22 pm

klm672 wrote:
Heard in another thread that WOW AIr is going away at the end of this month. I wonder if that means that Icelandair will go away, and then AA will probably discontinue the route as well.


That thread is all speculation/rumors masquerading as facts, as most of this website has become. The WOW Air DFW flight was scheduled as seasonal through October since the beginning. Flights past October were never scheduled and WOW has not yet announced if they will/won't return in Summer 2019. However, the poster of that thread and the "Points Guy" article he cited said "Oh no, I can't book flights on WW DFW-KEF past October, they pulled out!" How silly. The flights were never loaded in the first place for Winter.

That said, it's possible WOW could pull of the route despite 90%+ load factors that have been reported by DFW Airport statistics. They have severe profitability issues. I don't see Icelandair pulling out. They are year round and they would benefit even further if WOW pulled out. AA won't be pulling off the route anytime soon, especially if Icelandair stays.

The sky is not falling. WOW's bank reserves might be, however. We will see how long this airline lasts.
 
stevend08
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2015 4:20 am

Re: DFW 2018 Developments

Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:39 pm

Some happenings at DFW:

-FIS being reconfigured to have customs upstairs as well as passport control so there is no quene on the first floor in bag claim.
-Looks like DFW is working on a pilot biometric technology so that pax won't need to provide passports/id at every step (security/boarding)

https://www.wttc.org/about/media-centre ... tric-pilot
 
deltaffindfw
Posts: 1520
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 7:42 am

Re: DFW 2018 Developments

Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:31 pm

stevend08 wrote:
Some happenings at DFW:

-FIS being reconfigured to have customs upstairs as well as passport control so there is no quene on the first floor in bag claim.
-Looks like DFW is working on a pilot biometric technology so that pax won't need to provide passports/id at every step (security/boarding)

https://www.wttc.org/about/media-centre ... tric-pilot


I noticed that later in the evening, there is no customs officer downstairs at DFW (at least that was the case a month ago when we arrived at 6pm on Sunday).

Per the article, is the pilot for "DFW TO London" or "DFW OR London" trips. Sounded confusing...
 
Brandon757
Posts: 140
Joined: Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:16 pm

Re: DFW 2018 Developments

Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:51 pm

For any DFW spotters on here Qatar will be flying the A350-1000 on Doha-DFW from 7/1/19 to 10/26/19.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... s-in-3q19/
 
FriscoHeavy
Posts: 1791
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 4:31 pm

Re: DFW 2018 Developments

Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:56 pm

That will be neat to see. Will these have the Q-Suites installed?
Whatever
 
FriscoHeavy
Posts: 1791
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 4:31 pm

Re: DFW 2018 Developments

Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:05 pm

stevend08 wrote:
Some happenings at DFW:

-FIS being reconfigured to have customs upstairs as well as passport control so there is no quene on the first floor in bag claim.
-Looks like DFW is working on a pilot biometric technology so that pax won't need to provide passports/id at every step (security/boarding)

https://www.wttc.org/about/media-centre ... tric-pilot



1. Does anyone know when this new procedure is going to be in effect? *The FIS portion.
2. Does anyone have a drawing/map of how this new configuration will look?
Whatever
 
Fargo
Posts: 810
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"DFW prepares for record growth as Terminal F decision looms"

Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:20 pm

Interesting article in Dallas News about the recent growth at DFW and how a decision on Terminal F will be nearing in the not too distant future.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/dfw-airport/2018/12/30/dfw-airport-prepares-record-growth-terminal-f-decision-looms

The article says DFW will likely hit around 73 million next year and negotiations between AA and the airport are underway about the future of the terminal space. Options include building Terminal F as originally planned and hooking it into the Skylink, doing an incremental gate building approach or completing replacing the existing horseshoe design with a new layout.

As far as I'm concerned, they are going to need to do the last option, even though it will likely cost a ton of $. The terminal design is holding DFW back from its full potential, and if they could rebuild it into a more efficient design like ATL, DEN, DTW, etc, DFW could probably challenge ATL as the busiest airport in the nation.
 
Noise
Posts: 2469
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 1999 7:38 am

Re: "DFW prepares for record growth as Terminal F decision looms"

Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:06 pm

The currently terminal layout was popular in the late 60s/early 70s (see IAH, CDG and the master plan for YMX) however the current layout does indeed hold the airport back a little. They should go for a terminal layout similar to that of ATL or DEN.
 
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zululima
Posts: 476
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:21 am

Re: "DFW prepares for record growth as Terminal F decision looms"

Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:20 pm

Fargo wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, they are going to need to do the last option, even though it will likely cost a ton of $. The terminal design is holding DFW back from its full potential, and if they could rebuild it into a more efficient design like ATL, DEN, DTW, etc, DFW could probably challenge ATL as the busiest airport in the nation.


That's not in any way realistic. DFW may not have the optimal layout, but it works really well. Despite having ~200 gates you can get between any two in 15 minutes or less. The only real benefit to an ATL-style design here would be to consolidate the TSA checkpoints. Do you really expect the airport board to commit spending $50 billion to completely realign the terminals when they can build F as planned (D clone) for under $3 billion? This level of redevelopment would go well beyond airport authority to even contemplate and the supposed gains would never offset the multi-decade construction clusterfuck that would result.

Airport traffic growing? Build F as planned. Done.
I didn't get a 'Harumph' outta that guy!
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
Posts: 1138
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:38 pm

Re: "DFW prepares for record growth as Terminal F decision looms"

Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:23 pm

As a mega-connecting hub, DFW is going to have to go with a Terminal F to handle the extra volume that is most certainly coming, not to mention picking up the slack when other gates must be closed for remodeling/reconstruction. As a connecting airport, it's greatest strength is that ALL of its gates are connected and accessible post-security, and F will need to be built to connect with all the others from the beginning: if not, then the decision to re-connect in the future would cost even more than it would now. It just makes sense to handle growth that really isn't looking to slow down much.

Switching to an ATL or DEN layout would be a ghastly expensive and wasteful project - not to mention inconceivably inconvenient. The SkyLink works well to connect gates, and it's fairly logical and working system. I avoid, however, if at all possible, simply because I have my horror stories of AA and DFW personnel in the evenings, but that's nothing to do with the layout of the airport itself.
 
FriscoHeavy
Posts: 1791
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 4:31 pm

Re: "DFW prepares for record growth as Terminal F decision looms"

Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:25 pm

The layout of the airport is great with the SkyLink. It’s very efficient.

Build Terminal F to mirror Terminal D, including all gates having FIS capability for future growth.

Then, tear down Terminal C and replace it with a modern Terminal that is similar to Terminals D & F.
Whatever
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 9306
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

Re: "DFW prepares for record growth as Terminal F decision looms"

Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:37 pm

zululima wrote:
Fargo wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, they are going to need to do the last option, even though it will likely cost a ton of $. The terminal design is holding DFW back from its full potential, and if they could rebuild it into a more efficient design like ATL, DEN, DTW, etc, DFW could probably challenge ATL as the busiest airport in the nation.


That's not in any way realistic. DFW may not have the optimal layout, but it works really well. Despite having ~200 gates you can get between any two in 15 minutes or less. The only real benefit to an ATL-style design here would be to consolidate the TSA checkpoints.


It may work well for passenger connections, but AA says their operating costs at DFW are now climbing higher than hubs like CLT. The layout of DFW is partly to blame. It takes more staff - of all types, not just TSA - to service such a big footprint. I cannot think of a modern airport built in the last 25 years that has followed DFW's terminal configuration.

zululima wrote:
Do you really expect the airport board to commit spending $50 billion to completely realign the terminals when they can build F as planned (D clone) for under $3 billion? This level of redevelopment would go well beyond airport authority to even contemplate and the supposed gains would never offset the multi-decade construction clusterfuck that would result.

Airport traffic growing? Build F as planned. Done.


Yes, I expect the board of directors to evaluate whether a terminal reconfiguration is economically justified and necessary to provide growth opportunities for the region. You have apparently jumped to the conclusion that it isn't, but that can only be decided after careful study. It is precisely their authority to conduct those sorts of studies.

There is - as of yet - no plan to build a Terminal F.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
stevend08
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2015 4:20 am

Re: "DFW prepares for record growth as Terminal F decision looms"

Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:48 pm

I would like to point everyone at DFW's latest investor presentation from last month.

https://www.dfwairport.com/cs/groups/we ... 103003.pdf

It discusses DFW's 10 year capital plan which is currently allocating 2.5 billion for Terminal F.

To my knowledge Terminal F is almost certainly a go or at least the plan going forward.
 
vadodara
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Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:45 pm

Re: "DFW prepares for record growth as Terminal F decision looms"

Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:49 pm

AA’s costs are probably high due to:
A) the wider footprint makes servicing the elite concierge key that more difficult
B) bags for short connections need to be moved directly to the gate across the field

They could build F ‘across’ but that may require some compromises at ‘E’ for which they just spent some bucks to renovate
 
Fargo
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Re: "DFW prepares for record growth as Terminal F decision looms"

Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:55 pm

stevend08 wrote:
I would like to point everyone at DFW's latest investor presentation from last month.

https://www.dfwairport.com/cs/groups/we ... 103003.pdf

It discusses DFW's 10 year capital plan which is currently allocating 2.5 billion for Terminal F.

To my knowledge Terminal F is almost certainly a go or at least the plan going forward.


That's just a proposal and is not set in stone. AA still has to be on board, and since they've been in negotiations for a while, I would imagine things are not as cut and dried as people think and (hopefully), they are thinking long and hard about the terminal design going forward.
 
UpNAWAy
Posts: 700
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:42 pm

Re: "DFW prepares for record growth as Terminal F decision looms"

Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:03 pm

The ideal solution which is cost prohibitive in the short run and won't be considered is to demolish international parkway. Build one terminal on its footprint with tunnels for international parkway, Rail connections to Dart and TRE, parking garages, shopping, TSA all inclusive.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2714
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:59 pm

Re: "DFW prepares for record growth as Terminal F decision looms"

Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:54 pm

UpNAWAy wrote:
The ideal solution which is cost prohibitive in the short run and won't be considered is to demolish international parkway. Build one terminal on its footprint with tunnels for international parkway, Rail connections to Dart and TRE, parking garages, shopping, TSA all inclusive.


And do what in the meantime?

It isn't just a matter of it being prohibitive. It's a matter of it being a flat-out impossibility. With >70mm PAX a year, DFW isn't just a large airport in a city; it's a visible percentage of All domestic air traffic in this country.

Ripping out that parkway and the terminals to build a new one will literally require one of two things to happen.

Either "temporary" terminal structures come up, at a tremendous cost, or the airfield would just have to close for however many years it takes.

Clearly both options are ridiculous as the airfield and the Metroplex are economically intertwined as hell.
But there is not another way to accomplish a layout change of that scale.

LHR would be the closest that's ever come to happening in real life, but in that case, there are virtually no similarities.



DfwRevolution wrote:

Yes, I expect the board of directors to evaluate whether a terminal reconfiguration is economically justified and necessary to provide growth opportunities for the region. You have apparently jumped to the conclusion that it isn't, but that can only be decided after careful study. It is precisely their authority to conduct those sorts of studies.

There is - as of yet - no plan to build a Terminal F.


Ok, this is probably denying the reality of the situation to satisfy an extreme literalist outlook. There's forests and trees involved if you take my meaning.

No, there's no published, design frozen, financially committed to plan. That in no way excludes the possibility of there being a plan for Term F. Or the fact the decision is already made.

What is known is that there is already a post security Tram linking the F spots to the rest of the terminals. There are already baked in entrance exit points from the parkway as well.

As well, there is an airfield full of existing and newly remodeled terminals that also happen to he very heavily used.

What people who want a DEN style layout need to understand is that the benefits of doing so are highly debatable under the best of circumstances. And while there very well may be something to be gained from that if AA hold up their side of the bargain and bring in add'l 10-15mm PAX/yr, the cost barriers of getting from here to there are functionally insurmountable.

Building out Term F OTOH, with a footprint already in place and money already allocated is far more sensible.

Doing a terminal re-layout is like the difference between adding some highlights to your hairstyle and having a full on sex change.
"Nous ne sommes pas infectés. Il n'y a pas d'infection ici..."
 
Fargo
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Re: "DFW prepares for record growth as Terminal F decision looms"

Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:29 am

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
No, there's no published, design frozen, financially committed to plan. That in no way excludes the possibility of there being a plan for Term F. Or the fact the decision is already made.


And there is also the possibility there isn't, the article indicated that the plan was still under negotiations. Also, Doug Parker has been on the record stating DFW's layout is not optimal. At the end of the day, DFW has to do what AA wants, since they are the backbone of the airport.

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
What is known is that there is already a post security Tram linking the F spots to the rest of the terminals. There are already baked in entrance exit points from the parkway as well. As well, there is an airfield full of existing and newly remodeled terminals that also happen to he very heavily used.


Yes, and there is also a fair amount of land to the south where things (parking/hotels) can be relocated so the terminals could be demolished/ replaced ATL style in phases.

Heck, you could start by building the hypothetical south terminal/future Concourse A where the existing Terminal E employee parking is and work your way north, requiring minimal disruption to the existing terminals.

If airpots like LGA/JFK can be rebuilt in phases, so can DFW.

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
What people who want a DEN style layout need to understand is that the benefits of doing so are highly debatable under the best of circumstances.


Says who?

How many large hub airports in the world have layouts similar to ATL/DEN vs DFW? Enough said.

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
And while there very well may be something to be gained from that if AA hold up their side of the bargain and bring in add'l 10-15mm PAX/yr, the cost barriers of getting from here to there are functionally insurmountable.


A new ATL style layout at DFW would bring in a lot more than 10-15 million passengers a year. The current layout is preventing DFW from reaching its full potential. And cost barriers functionally insurmountable? Give me a break. It would be expensive and somewhat disruptive, sure, but it's far from insurmountable. The way the North Texas economy is booming, it would pay for itself.

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
Building out Term F OTOH, with a footprint already in place and money already allocated is far more sensible.


And what are you going do when further expansion is needed afterwards? Build Terminal's G, H, I, etc, extend the Skylink and hope it doesn't go down, require AA to continue to staff separate terminals, create more headaches for baggage handling and create more distance for connecting pax?

No, better to gut and rebuild. This should have done this a decade ago instead of building Terminal D and the Skylink.
 
LAXLHR
Posts: 456
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:07 am

Re: "DFW prepares for record growth as Terminal F decision looms"

Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:36 am

Fargo wrote:
Interesting article in Dallas News about the recent growth at DFW and how a decision on Terminal F will be nearing in the not too distant future.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/dfw-airport/2018/12/30/dfw-airport-prepares-record-growth-terminal-f-decision-looms

The article says DFW will likely hit around 73 million next year and negotiations between AA and the airport are underway about the future of the terminal space. Options include building Terminal F as originally planned and hooking it into the Skylink, doing an incremental gate building approach or completing replacing the existing horseshoe design with a new layout.

As far as I'm concerned, they are going to need to do the last option, even though it will likely cost a ton of $. The terminal design is holding DFW back from its full potential, and if they could rebuild it into a more efficient design like ATL, DEN, DTW, etc, DFW could probably challenge ATL as the busiest airport in the nation.


As someone that has flown through DFW over 100 times, the layout is fine. Its easy using the skylink to switch terminals. I can get from Domestic to/from International with ease. Not everything has to be DEN or ATL. Actually the preferred global design is very different... see AUH, ICN new Beijing airport. ISL (IST in 2019). DFW is fine!.
BA IB ET JM EA GK PA VS AA SN HP CO W7 WN NW DL UA AC US LH LX OS JL QF QR WY MH CX U2 EK 9W UK TP VY VN LO OK OZ UL SQ LA

707 727 L10 732-NG 741 742 743 744 752 753 762 763 772 773 787 DC8 DC9 DC10 M80 M11 100 AB3 310 318 319 320 321 330s 340s 350 380
 
UpNAWAy
Posts: 700
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:42 pm

Re: "DFW prepares for record growth as Terminal F decision looms"

Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:43 am

DFW could have a massive redo and keep operations going. It would be messy but LGA did it LAX is doing it. It's expensive but doable. The question the Power Brokers have to awnser are we doing a 10-15 year fix or embark on a 50+ year vison plan?
 
SonomaFlyer
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Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:47 pm

Re: "DFW prepares for record growth as Terminal F decision looms"

Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:05 am

Fargo wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:
No, there's no published, design frozen, financially committed to plan. That in no way excludes the possibility of there being a plan for Term F. Or the fact the decision is already made.


And there is also the possibility there isn't, the article indicated that the plan was still under negotiations. Also, Doug Parker has been on the record stating DFW's layout is not optimal. At the end of the day, DFW has to do what AA wants, since they are the backbone of the airport.

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
What is known is that there is already a post security Tram linking the F spots to the rest of the terminals. There are already baked in entrance exit points from the parkway as well. As well, there is an airfield full of existing and newly remodeled terminals that also happen to he very heavily used.


Yes, and there is also a fair amount of land to the south where things (parking/hotels) can be relocated so the terminals could be demolished/ replaced ATL style in phases.

Heck, you could start by building the hypothetical south terminal/future Concourse A where the existing Terminal E employee parking is and work your way north, requiring minimal disruption to the existing terminals.

If airpots like LGA/JFK can be rebuilt in phases, so can DFW.

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
What people who want a DEN style layout need to understand is that the benefits of doing so are highly debatable under the best of circumstances.


Says who?

How many large hub airports in the world have layouts similar to ATL/DEN vs DFW? Enough said.

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
And while there very well may be something to be gained from that if AA hold up their side of the bargain and bring in add'l 10-15mm PAX/yr, the cost barriers of getting from here to there are functionally insurmountable.


A new ATL style layout at DFW would bring in a lot more than 10-15 million passengers a year. The current layout is preventing DFW from reaching its full potential. And cost barriers functionally insurmountable? Give me a break. It would be expensive and somewhat disruptive, sure, but it's far from insurmountable. The way the North Texas economy is booming, it would pay for itself.

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
Building out Term F OTOH, with a footprint already in place and money already allocated is far more sensible.


And what are you going do when further expansion is needed afterwards? Build Terminal's G, H, I, etc, extend the Skylink and hope it doesn't go down, require AA to continue to staff separate terminals, create more headaches for baggage handling and create more distance for connecting pax?

No, better to gut and rebuild. This should have done this a decade ago instead of building Terminal D and the Skylink.


The is exactly ZERO chance that DFW will tear down existing terminals and do a full rebuild. It is prohibitively expensive and would cut capacity drastically as each terminal is torn down and rebuilt. If you do a staged rebuild, it would take even longer and cost more.

This is the largest airport in the world in terms of land size. They have the room to add additional terminals as needed and even linking a far remote terminal will be cheaper than a full rebuild of existing terminals.
 
Fargo
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Re: "DFW prepares for record growth as Terminal F decision looms"

Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:19 am

SonomaFlyer wrote:
The is exactly ZERO chance that DFW will tear down existing terminals and do a full rebuild. It is prohibitively expensive and would cut capacity drastically as each terminal is torn down and rebuilt. If you do a staged rebuild, it would take even longer and cost more.


Do you have any evidence that there is ZERO chance or that it would be prohibitively expensive? LGA seems to be making nice progress on their staged rebuild. Yes, I know it's somewhat apples to oranges, but that's NYC we are talking about.

SonomaFlyer wrote:
This is the largest airport in the world in terms of land size.


DEN may have something to say about that.

SonomaFlyer wrote:
They have the room to add additional terminals as needed and even linking a far remote terminal will be cheaper than a full rebuild of existing terminals.


But once again, if it increases AA's operational costs, which keeping and expanding the current layout will, AA won't sign onto it.

Then again, perhaps a DTW layout would be better than an ATL so it is slightly less disruptive.
 
FriscoHeavy
Posts: 1791
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 4:31 pm

Re: "DFW prepares for record growth as Terminal F decision looms"

Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:33 am

DFW, while it’s wise to consult with AA, doesn’t need to worry about them up and leaving.

If they did, or significantly downsized, believe me another airline would step in and make it work.

Making it look like DEN or ATL is NOT the answer.
Whatever
 
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DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2714
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Re: "DFW prepares for record growth as Terminal F decision looms"

Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:36 am

Fargo wrote:

And there is also the possibility there isn't, the article indicated that the plan was still under negotiations. Also, Doug Parker has been on the record stating DFW's layout is not optimal. At the end of the day, DFW has to do what AA wants, since they are the backbone of the airport.


Just so we're clear, you think AA just goes around telling DFW what to do. Aaaaaand that they want the airport to come up with a plan that would cost, at a wildly optimistic minimum, ten to fifteen times what a Term F would... After just having spent 2.7 billion on the TRIP program (we're going to come back to that in a minute)...

Because a guy whos job it is to keep AA from going bankrupt again said the current uncrowded, easy to navigate layout is "not optimal"...

That about sum it up?


Fargo wrote:
Yes, and there is also a fair amount of land to the south where things (parking/hotels) can be relocated so the terminals could be demolished/ replaced ATL style in phases.

Heck, you could start by building the hypothetical south terminal/future Concourse A where the existing Terminal E employee parking is and work your way north, requiring minimal disruption to the existing terminals.


Or, again more realistically, just skip the whole demolishing terminals AA and DFW just finished rebuilding and simply keep the extra space. I'd say 'problem solved', but there wasn't one in the first place.

Fargo wrote:

If airpots like LGA/JFK can be rebuilt in phases, so can DFW.



We should probably stick to comparing Like items. Having spent several thousand days working both DFW and LAX, there's a good chance that I know both fields very well.

And LAX and DFW are not similar. They don't even handle the same missions.

The long and short of it is that LAX is not in any way disturbing its current passenger facing foot print. In fact, even with WN's overhaul of T1 and AA's connecting TBIT to T4, we've increased our traffic.

To get rid of DFW's int'l parkway so we can blow down some relatively new terminals is not something that can be done in the same financial universe as building a Term F.

No matter what the layout they'd go to in such a ridiculous adventure, there's no hope of AA saving even a miniscule percentage of that cost on some imagined "staffing synergies".

Fargo wrote:

Says who?



The people actually paying for it would be a good start.

Fargo wrote:

A new ATL style layout at DFW would bring in a lot more than 10-15 million passengers a year. The current layout is preventing DFW from reaching its full potential.


From where in the hell?

I'm not sure what you know about DFW's general operations, but capacity isn't the problem. They've got shed loads of it.

AA could easily increase by that number now. And yet they haven't. Even in a "booming N Tex economy". This puts a question mark on any expansion and Hard No on re-laying out a terminal set-up that won't even add gates. For tons of money that no one seems to have.

In fact, where I do agree with that Dfwrev guy is that Term F may not happen. Don't confuse picking semantics apart with the notion that there have to be any changes. Term F may be another 10, 20, infinity years away for all we know.

But what won't happen is an entire revamp of a better than average layout because internet people want to be like ATL. It's Term F or nothing.



Anyway...

This is part of the reason why comparisons with LAX are meaningless here. DFW already has plenty of room to grow. And it's already easy to add to that very cheaply with add'l terminals.

LAX OTOH is busting at the seems. Again, I've spent quite a lot of time working both fields and when it comes to capacity mgmt, there are no valid comparisons. And if there somehow were? Guess what?

LAX has no intention, ever, of ripping out the Century loop so we can be more like ATL. Our new North-South TBITs could only be built because they didn't cover existing infrastructure or harm existing operations. There won't be anything west of the World Way turnout. Ever.


Fargo wrote:
And what are you going do when further expansion is needed afterwards? Build Terminal's G, H, I, etc,


That a serious question? Yes. And just to repeat, hell yes.

Take a look at DFW's layout sometime. You'll even see this on the ground if you ever go there. There's actually some pretty neat rendering online showing the original master plan.

There is all kinds of room to pop up new terminals. South of E even has space for another terminal beyond the employee lot. North of A has tons of space where Express north is. Across the road they have an FBO that could easily be repositioned.

If they wanted to make a real mess of things, they could probably add as many terminals as already exist and come out of it just fine. That would be brutally expensive, and equally pointless. But it would still be lightyears cheaper than anything you're proposing here.

Remember that TRIP program were talking about earlier? For 2.7B's, they refaced some of the older terminals. Refaced.

What exactly do you think adding whole new structure, cutting roads apart while building tunnels while either denying access or building temporary terminals their access and taxiways will cost?


And what do you think you're going to do to convince Parker to convince his shareholders to pay for that?


Justifying a new Term F, complete with already existing easements, rail linkage and parkway access will be an uphill battle. Again, that's for something specifically not involving making a tempo structure elsewhere, new roads etc.

Yeah, the more we look at this the more clear it becomes how ridiculous this idea is.

I know you're really really attached to it. I get that. But I've literally seen more realistic ideas/proposals in that B52 as an airliner thread. I'm not trying to beat up on you or make ugly baby comments just for fun or anything. This just doesn't have a hope in hell is all.


LAXLHR wrote:
As someone that has flown through DFW over 100 times, the layout is fine. Its easy using the skylink to switch terminals. I can get from Domestic to/from International with ease. Not everything has to be DEN or ATL. Actually the preferred global design is very different... see AUH, ICN new Beijing airport. ISL (IST in 2019). DFW is fine!.


Indeed. This notion that something needs to be completely done away with just because it's not someone's definition of perfection (even while being better than most other layouts), is just plain silly.

I actually prefer DFW for connections over ATL (not that I really fly AA anymore). ATL is fine too, but a trek between intl'l terminal at F and over to B or A is still longer than anything DFW would take.

SonomaFlyer wrote:

This is the largest airport in the world in terms of land size. They have the room to add additional terminals as needed and even linking a far remote terminal will be cheaper than a full rebuild of existing terminals.


Yep. Nailed it.
"Nous ne sommes pas infectés. Il n'y a pas d'infection ici..."
 
stevend08
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2015 4:20 am

Re: "DFW prepares for record growth as Terminal F decision looms"

Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:46 am

Fargo wrote:
stevend08 wrote:
I would like to point everyone at DFW's latest investor presentation from last month.

https://www.dfwairport.com/cs/groups/we ... 103003.pdf

It discusses DFW's 10 year capital plan which is currently allocating 2.5 billion for Terminal F.

To my knowledge Terminal F is almost certainly a go or at least the plan going forward.


That's just a proposal and is not set in stone. AA still has to be on board, and since they've been in negotiations for a while, I would imagine things are not as cut and dried as people think and (hopefully), they are thinking long and hard about the terminal design going forward.


While DFW does coordinate a lot of things with AA, a complete teardown and rebuild is unlikely. While the idea has been considered, the current objective of AA is to grow DFW. To achieve that growth, DFW needs more gates. If DFW were to rebuild, certain gates/terminals would definitely be out of service thus AA would not be able to grow. It is for this reason why DFW put the Terminal C TRIP renovation on hold... because AA needed those gates and AA wasn't happy with DFW's pace of renovation. However it is very possible 30-40 years now that this conversation could come up again and have things go the other way.
 
Fargo
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Re: "DFW prepares for record growth as Terminal F decision looms"

Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:48 am

FriscoHeavy wrote:
DFW, while it’s wise to consult with AA, doesn’t need to worry about them up and leaving.

If they did, or significantly downsized, believe me another airline would step in and make it work.


Serious question, who? Do you think UA would leave IAH for DFW, or would DL build (or rebuild) a hub in DFW even though they don't need a Texas hub (according to the "experts" on this forum; see the AUS focus city thread).
 
stevend08
Posts: 86
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Re: DFW 2018 Developments

Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:48 am

FriscoHeavy wrote:
stevend08 wrote:
Some happenings at DFW:

-FIS being reconfigured to have customs upstairs as well as passport control so there is no quene on the first floor in bag claim.
-Looks like DFW is working on a pilot biometric technology so that pax won't need to provide passports/id at every step (security/boarding)

https://www.wttc.org/about/media-centre ... tric-pilot



1. Does anyone know when this new procedure is going to be in effect? *The FIS portion.
2. Does anyone have a drawing/map of how this new configuration will look?


Wish I could tell you but I don't have CBP access. I will say the lines in the bag recheck zone are still crazy long in the late afternoon.
 
B1168
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Re: "DFW prepares for record growth as Terminal F decision looms"

Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:56 am

Why are you guys so interested in rebuilding DFW? We have space for Terminal F, and there are PLENTY OF SPACE for a satellite hall or two between 35R and 35C. These many lands, as well as utilizing nearby land, should suffice DFW’s development for 10 years straight.
Also, never forget that you have DAL and TKI. The Wrights Amendment can be revised to release payload for DAL in 2024, while TKI has enough space for North DFW’s regional traffic demand. These combined can release some of those regional flights from DFW, reducing traffic.
 
e38
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Re: "DFW prepares for record growth as Terminal F decision looms"

Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:57 am

Is there a plan at DFW to construct an additional north/south runway on the far west side of the airfield? This would be further west than the current west cargo complex and perhaps intersect the current Runway 13R/31L. Quite a few years ago I remember seeing an artist’s concept drawing of future expansion at DFW which included such a runway.

e38
 
B1168
Posts: 507
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Re: "DFW prepares for record growth as Terminal F decision looms"

Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:00 am

e38 wrote:
Is there a plan at DFW to construct an additional north/south runway on the far west side of the airfield? This would be further west than the current west cargo complex and perhaps intersect the current Runway 13R/31L. Quite a few years ago I remember seeing an artist’s concept drawing of future expansion at DFW which included such a runway.

e38


No idea. The real problem is, is it necessary? Is DFW reaching top capacity?
 
Fargo
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Re: "DFW prepares for record growth as Terminal F decision looms"

Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:02 am

B1168 wrote:
e38 wrote:
Is there a plan at DFW to construct an additional north/south runway on the far west side of the airfield? This would be further west than the current west cargo complex and perhaps intersect the current Runway 13R/31L. Quite a few years ago I remember seeing an artist’s concept drawing of future expansion at DFW which included such a runway.

e38


No idea. The real problem is, is it necessary? Is DFW reaching top capacity?


No, runways are not at all an issue. Plenty of capacity for the next several decades. The only thing being discussed here is the terminal space and what should be done there going forward.
 
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zululima
Posts: 476
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Re: "DFW prepares for record growth as Terminal F decision looms"

Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:08 am

DfwRevolution wrote:
It may work well for passenger connections, but AA says their operating costs at DFW are now climbing higher than hubs like CLT. The layout of DFW is partly to blame


And how high will AA's operating costs be after the ~$50 billion realignment is finished? Freaking massive.

DfwRevolution wrote:

Yes, I expect the board of directors to evaluate whether a terminal reconfiguration is economically justified and necessary to provide growth opportunities for the region. You have apparently jumped to the conclusion that it isn't, but that can only be decided after careful study. It is precisely their authority to conduct those sorts of studies.


I didn't jump to any conclusions. Like others here, I did a basic assessment using simple logic. The airport's design is set in stone, literally. Tearing up everything from the sewers up will never happen. Get a grip on reality.

DfwRevolution wrote:
There is - as of yet - no plan to build a Terminal F.


Prove it. Publicly available information has indicated for the past few years that F is moving forward. Companies have been solicited to bid on construction items. DFW officials are commenting publicly on it. We just don't have a firm configuration etc. yet.

Perhaps it's you and Fargo who are jumping to conclusions. The main one being that the layout is "holding back" DFW. It's one of the 12 busiest airports IN THE WORLD. It doesn't need to be #1, or "better than ATL". Your'e both talking about spending more money than DFW receives in revenue in half a century to "fix" a problem that doesn't even need fixing. The current layout isn't optimal, but it doesn't have to be to work.
I didn't get a 'Harumph' outta that guy!
 
B1168
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Re: "DFW prepares for record growth as Terminal F decision looms"

Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:13 am

Fargo wrote:

No, runways are not at all an issue. Plenty of capacity for the next several decades. The only thing being discussed here is the terminal space and what should be done there going forward.


So... what is your opinion on expansion after Terminal F?
 
Jetty
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Re: "DFW prepares for record growth as Terminal F decision looms"

Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:33 am

Record growth might be true for DFW itself, but in reality it has been the slowest growing megahub in the world over the past ~20 years. It had 61 million passengers in 2000 and has only slightly more now, falling from #5 worldwide to probably #16 over 2018 while having less aircraft movements than 20 years ago.
 
Fargo
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Re: "DFW prepares for record growth as Terminal F decision looms"

Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:38 am

zululima wrote:
And how high will AA's operating costs be after the ~$50 billion realignment is finished? Freaking massive.


I still have yet to see any proof that any type of rebuild will cost that much. Maybe an ATL-style layout, but there are cheaper alternatives that would improve the layout and be less disruptive (DTW style).

zululima wrote:
I didn't jump to any conclusions. Like others here, I did a basic assessment using simple logic. The airport's design is set in stone, literally. Tearing up everything from the sewers up will never happen. Get a grip on reality.


I'm sorry, you are saying DFW's design is set in stone and can never change? I didn't know DFW was special. Look at what ORD has done with their runways and what they are about to do with their terminal space. And they have TWO hubs and 20 million+ more pax than DFW. To say things are set in stone is baloney.

zululima wrote:
Prove it. Publicly available information has indicated for the past few years that F is moving forward. Companies have been solicited to bid on construction items. DFW officials are commenting publicly on it. We just don't have a firm configuration etc. yet.

Perhaps it's you and Fargo who are jumping to conclusions. The main one being that the layout is "holding back" DFW. It's one of the 12 busiest airports IN THE WORLD. It doesn't need to be #1, or "better than ATL". You're both talking about spending more money than DFW receives in revenue in half a century to "fix" a problem that doesn't even need fixing. The current layout isn't optimal, but it doesn't have to be to work.


How about you prove Terminal F (as originally proposed) is for sure happening? I can't see any articles stating as such. The article above makes it clear that DFW is still negotiating with AA and that they are considering something other than just Terminal F as proposed. You are the one jumping to conclusions.
 
mfe777
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Re: "DFW prepares for record growth as Terminal F decision looms"

Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:41 am

B1168 wrote:
Fargo wrote:

No, runways are not at all an issue. Plenty of capacity for the next several decades. The only thing being discussed here is the terminal space and what should be done there going forward.


So... what is your opinion on expansion after Terminal F?


This question wasn't directed at me, but in my personal opinion I'd recommend a terminal or two on the peripheries of the airport. One for low cost carriers (Spirit, Frontier, Allegiant, etc.) and one if a major carrier wants to develop a focus city of DFW (unlikely because of AA and WN, but who knows). Both of these would only possibly be needed in decades, not years.

After terminal F, AA could develop a late night bank to increase utilization. DFW gets pretty quiet after 9/10pm.

As far as DFW versus ATL/DEN, I have been listening for years about how some people think ATL's layout is more convenient and still can't understand it. DFW is just as convenient in most situations, and a couple situations where I think it's more convenient.

CONNECTING: DFW and ATL/DEN tie. Both are well connected by train and pax can get from any gate to another in 15 minutes or less total.

O&D: DFW is easier to get directly to your gate from check in, as you can check in near your gate and walk to it (no train required). ATL/DEN will require a train ride in almost all cases. Also, one security check area increases the chances that it will be a mad house. Sometimes DFW security checks are wide open because they're decentralized.

THE DFW PARKING OLD WIVES TALE: Some have complained that DFW is inconvenient if you park and depart from one terminal (and check bags) and then arrive at a different one. In this case, one would have to take a shuttle bus from the arrival terminal directly to the parking garage of the terminal they departed from. However, in DEN, you would have to take a train to the parking area in all cases. So they tie in my opinion when you've checked bags and happen to arrive at a different terminal.
 
FriscoHeavy
Posts: 1791
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Re: "DFW prepares for record growth as Terminal F decision looms"

Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:46 am

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
Fargo wrote:

And there is also the possibility there isn't, the article indicated that the plan was still under negotiations. Also, Doug Parker has been on the record stating DFW's layout is not optimal. At the end of the day, DFW has to do what AA wants, since they are the backbone of the airport.


Just so we're clear, you think AA just goes around telling DFW what to do. Aaaaaand that they want the airport to come up with a plan that would cost, at a wildly optimistic minimum, ten to fifteen times what a Term F would... After just having spent 2.7 billion on the TRIP program (we're going to come back to that in a minute)...

Because a guy whos job it is to keep AA from going bankrupt again said the current uncrowded, easy to navigate layout is "not optimal"...

That about sum it up?


Fargo wrote:
Yes, and there is also a fair amount of land to the south where things (parking/hotels) can be relocated so the terminals could be demolished/ replaced ATL style in phases.

Heck, you could start by building the hypothetical south terminal/future Concourse A where the existing Terminal E employee parking is and work your way north, requiring minimal disruption to the existing terminals.


Or, again more realistically, just skip the whole demolishing terminals AA and DFW just finished rebuilding and simply keep the extra space. I'd say 'problem solved', but there wasn't one in the first place.

Fargo wrote:

If airpots like LGA/JFK can be rebuilt in phases, so can DFW.



We should probably stick to comparing Like items. Having spent several thousand days working both DFW and LAX, there's a good chance that I know both fields very well.

And LAX and DFW are not similar. They don't even handle the same missions.

The long and short of it is that LAX is not in any way disturbing its current passenger facing foot print. In fact, even with WN's overhaul of T1 and AA's connecting TBIT to T4, we've increased our traffic.

To get rid of DFW's int'l parkway so we can blow down some relatively new terminals is not something that can be done in the same financial universe as building a Term F.

No matter what the layout they'd go to in such a ridiculous adventure, there's no hope of AA saving even a miniscule percentage of that cost on some imagined "staffing synergies".

Fargo wrote:

Says who?



The people actually paying for it would be a good start.

Fargo wrote:

A new ATL style layout at DFW would bring in a lot more than 10-15 million passengers a year. The current layout is preventing DFW from reaching its full potential.


From where in the hell?

I'm not sure what you know about DFW's general operations, but capacity isn't the problem. They've got shed loads of it.

AA could easily increase by that number now. And yet they haven't. Even in a "booming N Tex economy". This puts a question mark on any expansion and Hard No on re-laying out a terminal set-up that won't even add gates. For tons of money that no one seems to have.

In fact, where I do agree with that Dfwrev guy is that Term F may not happen. Don't confuse picking semantics apart with the notion that there have to be any changes. Term F may be another 10, 20, infinity years away for all we know.

But what won't happen is an entire revamp of a better than average layout because internet people want to be like ATL. It's Term F or nothing.



Anyway...

This is part of the reason why comparisons with LAX are meaningless here. DFW already has plenty of room to grow. And it's already easy to add to that very cheaply with add'l terminals.

LAX OTOH is busting at the seems. Again, I've spent quite a lot of time working both fields and when it comes to capacity mgmt, there are no valid comparisons. And if there somehow were? Guess what?

LAX has no intention, ever, of ripping out the Century loop so we can be more like ATL. Our new North-South TBITs could only be built because they didn't cover existing infrastructure or harm existing operations. There won't be anything west of the World Way turnout. Ever.


Fargo wrote:
And what are you going do when further expansion is needed afterwards? Build Terminal's G, H, I, etc,


That a serious question? Yes. And just to repeat, hell yes.

Take a look at DFW's layout sometime. You'll even see this on the ground if you ever go there. There's actually some pretty neat rendering online showing the original master plan.

There is all kinds of room to pop up new terminals. South of E even has space for another terminal beyond the employee lot. North of A has tons of space where Express north is. Across the road they have an FBO that could easily be repositioned.

If they wanted to make a real mess of things, they could probably add as many terminals as already exist and come out of it just fine. That would be brutally expensive, and equally pointless. But it would still be lightyears cheaper than anything you're proposing here.

Remember that TRIP program were talking about earlier? For 2.7B's, they refaced some of the older terminals. Refaced.

What exactly do you think adding whole new structure, cutting roads apart while building tunnels while either denying access or building temporary terminals their access and taxiways will cost?


And what do you think you're going to do to convince Parker to convince his shareholders to pay for that?


Justifying a new Term F, complete with already existing easements, rail linkage and parkway access will be an uphill battle. Again, that's for something specifically not involving making a tempo structure elsewhere, new roads etc.

Yeah, the more we look at this the more clear it becomes how ridiculous this idea is.

I know you're really really attached to it. I get that. But I've literally seen more realistic ideas/proposals in that B52 as an airliner thread. I'm not trying to beat up on you or make ugly baby comments just for fun or anything. This just doesn't have a hope in hell is all.


LAXLHR wrote:
As someone that has flown through DFW over 100 times, the layout is fine. Its easy using the skylink to switch terminals. I can get from Domestic to/from International with ease. Not everything has to be DEN or ATL. Actually the preferred global design is very different... see AUH, ICN new Beijing airport. ISL (IST in 2019). DFW is fine!.


Indeed. This notion that something needs to be completely done away with just because it's not someone's definition of perfection (even while being better than most other layouts), is just plain silly.

I actually prefer DFW for connections over ATL (not that I really fly AA anymore). ATL is fine too, but a trek between intl'l terminal at F and over to B or A is still longer than anything DFW would take.

SonomaFlyer wrote:

This is the largest airport in the world in terms of land size. They have the room to add additional terminals as needed and even linking a far remote terminal will be cheaper than a full rebuild of existing terminals.


Yep. Nailed it.



Everything you've stated is accurate. You laid it all out very nicely and I thank you for that.

Fargo is making a mountain out of a molehill.
Whatever
 
DFW17L
Posts: 264
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Re: "DFW prepares for record growth as Terminal F decision looms"

Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:50 am

I’d sure like to see the additional infield parking from a new Terminal F. It’s getting harder to find spots...especially around Christmas and Spring Break.
 
FriscoHeavy
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Re: "DFW prepares for record growth as Terminal F decision looms"

Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:55 am

Fargo,

Hate to break it to you, but the design of DFW is NOT holding it back and it's a myth that ATL and DEN are better. You aren't comprehending how easy it is to connect at DFW by jumping on the SkyTrain and even easier as an O&D airport. While it's not perfect (no airport is), it's pretty darn magnificent. The biggest downside (and it only applies to flying AA) is that it's possible to depart from one terminal and arrive into another. If you have checked bags, this can be a bit more difficult.

However, being a local, I plan ahead for these instances and it's never been an issue.

You're blowing smoke where there is none to be blown. The BEST solution for the time being is to Build Terminal F, either in its entirety or in sections. Afterwards, raze Terminal C and build a state of the art terminal in its place. You won't get anymore bang for your buck than doing that.
Whatever
 
B1168
Posts: 507
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Re: "DFW prepares for record growth as Terminal F decision looms"

Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:56 am

mfe777 wrote:
B1168 wrote:
Fargo wrote:

No, runways are not at all an issue. Plenty of capacity for the next several decades. The only thing being discussed here is the terminal space and what should be done there going forward.


So... what is your opinion on expansion after Terminal F?


This question wasn't directed at me, but in my personal opinion I'd recommend a terminal or two on the peripheries of the airport. One for low cost carriers (Spirit, Frontier, Allegiant, etc.) and one if a major carrier wants to develop a focus city of DFW (unlikely because of AA and WN, but who knows). Both of these would only possibly be needed in decades, not years.

After terminal F, AA could develop a late night bank to increase utilization. DFW gets pretty quiet after 9/10pm.

As far as DFW versus ATL/DEN, I have been listening for years about how some people think ATL's layout is more convenient and still can't understand it. DFW is just as convenient in most situations, and a couple situations where I think it's more convenient.

CONNECTING: DFW and ATL/DEN tie. Both are well connected by train and pax can get from any gate to another in 15 minutes or less total.

O&D: DFW is easier to get directly to your gate from check in, as you can check in near your gate and walk to it (no train required). ATL/DEN will require a train ride in almost all cases. Also, one security check area increases the chances that it will be a mad house. Sometimes DFW security checks are wide open because they're decentralized.

THE DFW PARKING OLD WIVES TALE: Some have complained that DFW is inconvenient if you park and depart from one terminal (and check bags) and then arrive at a different one. In this case, one would have to take a shuttle bus from the arrival terminal directly to the parking garage of the terminal they departed from. However, in DEN, you would have to take a train to the parking area in all cases. So they tie in my opinion when you've checked bags and happen to arrive at a different terminal.


So... do you mean that space between RW35R&35C? That seems to be a good place for satellite terminals.
DFW does have a good transfer experience.
 
ScottKBUF
Posts: 117
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Re: "DFW prepares for record growth as Terminal F decision looms"

Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:58 am

Fargo wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:
What people who want a DEN style layout need to understand is that the benefits of doing so are highly debatable under the best of circumstances.


Says who?

How many large hub airports in the world have layouts similar to ATL/DEN vs DFW? Enough said.


The debate isn't that the ATL/DEN style of layout aren't effective and efficient. They are. We all know that.

Fargo wrote:
SonomaFlyer wrote:
The is exactly ZERO chance that DFW will tear down existing terminals and do a full rebuild. It is prohibitively expensive and would cut capacity drastically as each terminal is torn down and rebuilt. If you do a staged rebuild, it would take even longer and cost more.


Do you have any evidence that there is ZERO chance or that it would be prohibitively expensive? LGA seems to be making nice progress on their staged rebuild. Yes, I know it's somewhat apples to oranges, but that's NYC we are talking about.


Calling DFW to LGA isn't remotely comparing apples to oranges. More of comparing a DC-7 to a 74. Take a look at a satellite image of DFW. Try and run through in your head exactly how you can both demolish and rebuild both while keeping the airport fully operational. Is it possible? Yeah, absolutely, if money were no object. However, this is the real world we're talking about here. Do you really think it would be worth sinking billions and billions of dollars to fix something that still works? Unless you happen to have that kind of money burning a hole in your pocket, the answer is certainly no.
Buffalo, NY
 
DeltaXNA
Posts: 458
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:52 am

Re: "DFW prepares for record growth as Terminal F decision looms"

Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:07 am

SonomaFlyer wrote:
Fargo wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:
No, there's no published, design frozen, financially committed to plan. That in no way excludes the possibility of there being a plan for Term F. Or the fact the decision is already made.


And there is also the possibility there isn't, the article indicated that the plan was still under negotiations. Also, Doug Parker has been on the record stating DFW's layout is not optimal. At the end of the day, DFW has to do what AA wants, since they are the backbone of the airport.

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
What is known is that there is already a post security Tram linking the F spots to the rest of the terminals. There are already baked in entrance exit points from the parkway as well. As well, there is an airfield full of existing and newly remodeled terminals that also happen to he very heavily used.


Yes, and there is also a fair amount of land to the south where things (parking/hotels) can be relocated so the terminals could be demolished/ replaced ATL style in phases.

Heck, you could start by building the hypothetical south terminal/future Concourse A where the existing Terminal E employee parking is and work your way north, requiring minimal disruption to the existing terminals.

If airpots like LGA/JFK can be rebuilt in phases, so can DFW.

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
What people who want a DEN style layout need to understand is that the benefits of doing so are highly debatable under the best of circumstances.


Says who?

How many large hub airports in the world have layouts similar to ATL/DEN vs DFW? Enough said.

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
And while there very well may be something to be gained from that if AA hold up their side of the bargain and bring in add'l 10-15mm PAX/yr, the cost barriers of getting from here to there are functionally insurmountable.


A new ATL style layout at DFW would bring in a lot more than 10-15 million passengers a year. The current layout is preventing DFW from reaching its full potential. And cost barriers functionally insurmountable? Give me a break. It would be expensive and somewhat disruptive, sure, but it's far from insurmountable. The way the North Texas economy is booming, it would pay for itself.

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
Building out Term F OTOH, with a footprint already in place and money already allocated is far more sensible.


And what are you going do when further expansion is needed afterwards? Build Terminal's G, H, I, etc, extend the Skylink and hope it doesn't go down, require AA to continue to staff separate terminals, create more headaches for baggage handling and create more distance for connecting pax?

No, better to gut and rebuild. This should have done this a decade ago instead of building Terminal D and the Skylink.


The is exactly ZERO chance that DFW will tear down existing terminals and do a full rebuild. It is prohibitively expensive and would cut capacity drastically as each terminal is torn down and rebuilt. If you do a staged rebuild, it would take even longer and cost more.

This is the largest airport in the world in terms of land size. They have the room to add additional terminals as needed and even linking a far remote terminal will be cheaper than a full rebuild of existing terminals.





DFW is the 2nd largest airport in the US in terms of land size after DEN which is about twice the size. The largest airport in the world in terms of land area is King Fahd International Airport – Saudi Arabia.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 9306
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

Re: "DFW prepares for record growth as Terminal F decision looms"

Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:26 am

zululima wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
It may work well for passenger connections, but AA says their operating costs at DFW are now climbing higher than hubs like CLT. The layout of DFW is partly to blame


And how high will AA's operating costs be after the ~$50 billion realignment is finished? Freaking massive.


You’re making up absurd numbers and scenarios to rationalize an opinion you already held.

The “reconfiguration” option on the table the last time this topic was discussed was to replace the semicircular terminals with a linear concourse running north-south, not a total redevelopment to an ATL toaster box.

zululima wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
Yes, I expect the board of directors to evaluate whether a terminal reconfiguration is economically justified and necessary to provide growth opportunities for the region. You have apparently jumped to the conclusion that it isn't, but that can only be decided after careful study. It is precisely their authority to conduct those sorts of studies.


I didn't jump to any conclusions. Like others here, I did a basic assessment using simple logic. The airport's design is set in stone, literally. Tearing up everything from the sewers up will never happen. Get a grip on reality.


Your premature conclusion is that we only have two alternatives: a $3 billion dollar clone of Terminal D or a $50 billion dollar terminal reconfiguration. This is a false dichotomy. There are lots of options with a range of costs and benefits that should be considered. The airport board isn’t going their job if they rush into spending $3 billion without considering the alternatives.

Also, the buildings and infrastructure at DFW all have a serviceable life. The original terminals are nearly 50 years old. TRIP went over budget and behind schedule because they were in worse condition than anticipated. In another 15 years, TRIP will be an ancient memory and it is likely the airport will need to start planning long-term replacements. So it is totally possible that they will, in fact, be torn down eventually.

zululima wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
There is - as of yet - no plan to build a Terminal F.


Prove it. Publicly available information has indicated for the past few years that F is moving forward. Companies have been solicited to bid on construction items. DFW officials are commenting publicly on it. We just don't have a firm configuration etc. yet.


We “just” don’t have a configuration yet. So there’s a plan to build something but we don’t know what “it” is? This is not a semantic point. If the scope, schedule, and cost are undefined, then there is no plan.

I suggest you read the article. The airport is still working with AA on design alternatives. It is stated that a possible outcome is not building a Terminal F. It is not overly-literal to say there is no plan to build a Terminal F yet when the airport directors are themselves uncertain if it will be built.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
Fargo
Posts: 810
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:00 am

Re: "DFW prepares for record growth as Terminal F decision looms"

Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:58 am

DfwRevolution wrote:
zululima wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
It may work well for passenger connections, but AA says their operating costs at DFW are now climbing higher than hubs like CLT. The layout of DFW is partly to blame


And how high will AA's operating costs be after the ~$50 billion realignment is finished? Freaking massive.


You’re making up absurd numbers and scenarios to rationalize an opinion you already held.

The “reconfiguration” option on the table the last time this topic was discussed was to replace the semicircular terminals with a linear concourse running north-south, not a total redevelopment to an ATL toaster box.

zululima wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
Yes, I expect the board of directors to evaluate whether a terminal reconfiguration is economically justified and necessary to provide growth opportunities for the region. You have apparently jumped to the conclusion that it isn't, but that can only be decided after careful study. It is precisely their authority to conduct those sorts of studies.


I didn't jump to any conclusions. Like others here, I did a basic assessment using simple logic. The airport's design is set in stone, literally. Tearing up everything from the sewers up will never happen. Get a grip on reality.


Your premature conclusion is that we only have two alternatives: a $3 billion dollar clone of Terminal D or a $50 billion dollar terminal reconfiguration. This is a false dichotomy. There are lots of options with a range of costs and benefits that should be considered. The airport board isn’t going their job if they rush into spending $3 billion without considering the alternatives.

Also, the buildings and infrastructure at DFW all have a serviceable life. The original terminals are nearly 50 years old. TRIP went over budget and behind schedule because they were in worse condition than anticipated. In another 15 years, TRIP will be an ancient memory and it is likely the airport will need to start planning long-term replacements. So it is totally possible that they will, in fact, be torn down eventually.

zululima wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
There is - as of yet - no plan to build a Terminal F.


Prove it. Publicly available information has indicated for the past few years that F is moving forward. Companies have been solicited to bid on construction items. DFW officials are commenting publicly on it. We just don't have a firm configuration etc. yet.


We “just” don’t have a configuration yet. So there’s a plan to build something but we don’t know what “it” is? This is not a semantic point. If the scope, schedule, and cost are undefined, then there is no plan.

I suggest you read the article. The airport is still working with AA on design alternatives. It is stated that a possible outcome is not building a Terminal F. It is not overly-literal to say there is no plan to build a Terminal F yet when the airport directors are themselves uncertain if it will be built.


This is the most reasonable reply here. Thank you.

And just so y’all know, a linear concourse would be fine as well.
 
User avatar
william
Posts: 3350
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

Re: DFW 2018 Developments

Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:16 am

Whatever happened to the rumor of AA wanting or looking at a IAH or PHX north/south style redo that would contract the terminal footprint to something more manageable with less front employees needed? Intl Parkway would not be touched. On that note has the new masterplan been updated and released yet?

Thought that was the original reason for the Terminal F hold up.

I have to add any ideas of a ATL/DEN style complex will not happen. The IAH/PHX style terminal may work with Intl Parkway up the center but thats iffy too. Lots of new stuff built recently with long term bonds that need to be paid off.
 
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CarlosSi
Posts: 663
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:29 pm

Re: "DFW prepares for record growth as Terminal F decision looms"

Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:07 am

While a total renovation of the terminal design would make DFW much more efficient and make operations more flexible (not just referring about PAX taking the trAAin), I feel like DFW is too big and it's layout is something that just has to be worked with, without giving it further thought. Rome wasn't built in a day; it won't take a day either to rebuild it, and I wonder how long it would be until the airport could reap the benefits, assuming all the terminals were rebuilt in stages. It's by no means a perfect layout with its consequences, but not desperately needing attention. From a passenger's perspective, it's fine with the train. Would be nice however, if one could "skip" terminals rather than go all the way around each terminal to reach another (like from terminal C to D on the train without having to walk or exit the airside).

Alternatively, if somehow International Parkway and all that road infrastructure could be put underground or elevated so that aircraft transit could happen inside the gaps between the terminals, that could open up the East and West side a little bit, but that would likely also be relatively difficult to accomplish and expensive, not to mention it won't fix how "linear" traveling across the terminals is.

Going with building terminals G and H, my only concern is long taxiway times if an aircraft had to go from terminal G to runway 18L (I'm presuming it already happens from terminal E). I realize it's already a long way from O'Hare's 17R/35L to the terminals (20 minutes?), however, so that may be an acceptable peeve already. I'd say a new airport would be more viable at that point than have 20 terminals aligned with each other, or expand DAL and Fort Worth's airports.

DeltaXNA wrote:
DFW is the 2nd largest airport in the US in terms of land size after DEN which is about twice the size. The largest airport in the world in terms of land area is King Fahd International Airport – Saudi Arabia.


To be fair, DEN and Osa.., I mean, King Fahd International are mostly empty space ;) (then again if we're going by density I'd say JFK is pretty dense).
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