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airportlover
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Would a HA/B6/AS Merger Work?

Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:50 pm

Would a merger between Hawaiian, Alaska, and JetBlue work well?

None of them are low-cost carriers, but none of them are legacy airlines. They are all considered boutique airlines with certain regional strengths and many network weaknesses. Joining the three airlines together would create a decent US (including Hawaii and Alaska, obviously) and Caribbean/South American network.

JetBlue has very strong brand loyalty in New York and Boston. People love JetBlue and will fly them whenever it is possible! Terminal 5 at JFK is excellent, even though it has to deal with NYC ATC delays. Its Florida and Caribbean network is excellent from both BOS and JFK, not to mention LGA and EWR. SJU is unique among US carriers, but it may not be as important in the near future due to the hurricane. FLL is another large operation, and B6 could build it up to rival MIA in terms of destinations. Or they could do the same with SJU, but I see FLL as more likely. Feed from Alaska's PNW network would really help this. The operation at Long Beach is also strong, albeit smaller. I see Long Beach being reduced to a small focus city or spoke in a merger scenario.

Hawaiian offers a great network within Hawaii, and it consistently rates well on customer service rankings, along with AS and B6. Hawaiian serves most major US cities, but they do have limited East Coast frequencies. However, Hawaii only seems to be becoming more popular among travelers, and there are well-heeled leisure travelers willing to pay for business class. Hawaiian has a large Asian and Australian/New Zealand network. This offers enticing connection opportunities from the ENTIRE US due to HNL's geographic location.

Alaska is very strong on the West Coast, with large operations in SFO, LAX, SAN, PDX, and SEA. This is unmatched among US carriers. No other airline offers the breadth of service from every major West Coast city. I only see this as an advantage in the current AS. With a merger, a few cities would have to be reduced and connections pushed through SEA and maybe SAN or SFO. PDX is probably too small, and LAX has no room. The Virgin America routes have brought in new customers to the brand, and it has helped AS with transcontinental service. Alaska is also a huge strength for the brand, and nobody can compete with them there. AS and B6 do have one gaping hole, though: the Midwest. I do not envision this changing, even with a merger. It is going to be tough for these airlines to crack those markets, and their customers may not really demand it. As long as the major markets are covered, a merged airline does not really need to worry about small cities between the coasts too much. They need to focus their energy on NYC, BOS, SEA, FLL, SJU, HNL, and one California city (whichever they choose to).

So, what do you guys think?
Last edited by atcsundevil on Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Clarified title
 
rj777
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Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:01 am

1)AS hasn't finished merging with Virgin America yet
2)Hawaiian is too much of an icon to disappear
3)JetBlue.......same as Hawaiian
 
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VS4ever
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Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:06 am

Ahh the first merger thread of 2018. Wouldn’t be the same without one. Please no more mergers, we are about ok as we are right now with some checks and balances.
Many people have said AS/B6 would work with an east and west set up matching nicely, HA doesn’t bring a whole lot to the party to be honest and are fine as they are. But as noted AS really has to get VX integrated first before thinking that way.
But I repeat, no more mergers. May be good for Wall Street so I can’t say it won’t happen, but as a consumer, not interested.
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
airportlover
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Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:11 am

VS4ever wrote:
Ahh the first merger thread of 2018. Wouldn’t be the same without one. Please no more mergers, we are about ok as we are right now with some checks and balances.
Many people have said AS/B6 would work with an east and west set up matching nicely, HA doesn’t bring a whole lot to the party to be honest and are fine as they are. But as noted AS really has to get VX integrated first before thinking that way.
But I repeat, no more mergers. May be good for Wall Street so I can’t say it won’t happen, but as a consumer, not interested.


I agree with you as a consumer! This is really meant for once VX is fully integrated, but that should happen soon. Also, HA seems like a good add to the two, though. It does offer great Hawaiian service, and HNL is a solid connecting airport that could be better utilized. B6 and AS would be the anchors, and Hawaiian would be a niche service, like UA's Guam service (but quite different).
 
wedgetail737
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Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:12 am

Not going to happen anytime soon. None of the three airlines can afford each other at this time.
 
airportlover
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Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:13 am

[list=][/list]
wedgetail737 wrote:
Not going to happen anytime soon. None of the three airlines can afford each other at this time.


I am not asking if it's feasible, but whether it would work well and make sense? If money were no issue, would these three airlines complement each other nicely? I think they very well would.
 
NWADTWE16
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Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:14 am

ill say this though, B6 needs to get their Customer Service (front facing at hub airports especially) in order. I have flown them very regularly throughout their system and starting with SJU a couple of years back and now really throughout their system, the agents are truly bad. Customers are ignored while they conversate with each other, and attitude up to and including challenging the customer to a fight has been witnessed more than once.
Ive written the carrier as to what ive experienced and even worse what ive seen and no response. Its truly sad because I love them, the flight crews are great, when the old A320 interiors are replaced (which cant happen fast enough) they come 2nd for me to Delta, but man, its embarrassing out there and that behavior is due to bad/lack of management.

For Alaska: Its well known I am off a rail at this carrier for being allowed to gobble up and destroy VX, so whatever with them, they have a long way to go and likely wont stay Alaska for too much longer.

For Hawaiian: They are Hawaii, that's it, I flew them for the first time this year in Premium Econ on an A330 and expecting a truly amazing experience. It was very amateur and HNL is a disaster for passengers, never again with them.

B6 can be the top dog of these three easily for decades if they get their head out of wall street and into their actual business again
I haven't been everywhere, but it's on my list!
 
Cunard
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Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:18 am

rj777 wrote:
1)AS hasn't finished merging with Virgin America yet
2)Hawaiian is too much of an icon to disappear
3)JetBlue.......same as Hawaiian


Many of an icon has disappeared overtime even if it was 'too much of an icon to disappear' no icon is too much of an icon to disappear I can assure you, just look back at all the previous great icons in aviation that have disappeared over the years.
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
SFOtoORD
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Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:20 am

It would be pretty odd to have an airline that large with only coastal concentrations. You’d get some of the usual economies of scale, but not much network synergy.
 
airportlover
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Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:36 am

SFOtoORD wrote:
It would be pretty odd to have an airline that large with only coastal concentrations. You’d get some of the usual economies of scale, but not much network synergy.


Yes, it would be odd. I do think it could work, though. Many business travelers spend most of their time between the coasts, SEA, LAX, SFO, BOS, NYC, PHL, DCA, IAD, BWI, etc. For the occasional ORD, DFW, IAH, or ATL flight, they would just fly another airline. Or they would be based at a merger hub, and they would likely have nonstops to those cities but not PIT, CLE, ROC, BDL, RIC, CVG, MKE, DSM, etc.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:37 am

rj777 wrote:
1)AS hasn't finished merging with Virgin America yet
2)Hawaiian is too much of an icon to disappear
3)JetBlue.......same as Hawaiian

What if they merge under a holding group while keeping the brands alive but streamline the FF programs? Horizon could be the regional for the combined airline.
When wasn't America great?


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CantbeGrounded
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Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:38 am

rj777 wrote:
1)AS hasn't finished merging with Virgin America yet
2)Hawaiian is too much of an icon to disappear
3)JetBlue.......same as Hawaiian


HA and B6 more iconic than....Northwest? TWA? PSA....AIR JAMAICA (ok yes to that one) but still. Not sure anyone has passed up a good deal because the target was too iconic (the parceling of Pan Am).
AA and US got together before HP finished erasing themselves in the merger with US (or something). Close enough to the same thing?
 
ADrum23
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Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:50 am

An AS and B6 merger would be nice eventually, but AS needs to finish with the VX merger first and both need to build up their presence in the central part of the country.
 
WkndWanderer
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Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:52 am

rj777 wrote:
1)AS hasn't finished merging with Virgin America yet
2)Hawaiian is too much of an icon to disappear
3)JetBlue.......same as Hawaiian


JetBlue has a strong brand connection with customers in the Northeast, but to call it an "Icon" is a stretch, it's only a few years older than VX was and has way less history behind it than either the AS or HA brands. Alaska already has something like 30 daily Hawaii flights from the west coast and HA doesn't offer much else beyond it's international flying and simply a bigger chunk of market share. I imagine a tie up with HA would go down like a lead balloon with consumer groups and probably wouldn't seem worth the resources and cost to investors.
 
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airportugal310
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Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:24 am

NWADTWE16 wrote:
ill say this though, B6 needs to get their Customer Service (front facing at hub airports especially) in order. I have flown them very regularly throughout their system and starting with SJU a couple of years back and now really throughout their system, the agents are truly bad. Customers are ignored while they conversate with each other, and attitude up to and including challenging the customer to a fight has been witnessed more than once.
Ive written the carrier as to what ive experienced and even worse what ive seen and no response. Its truly sad because I love them, the flight crews are great, when the old A320 interiors are replaced (which cant happen fast enough) they come 2nd for me to Delta, but man, its embarrassing out there and that behavior is due to bad/lack of management.

For Alaska: Its well known I am off a rail at this carrier for being allowed to gobble up and destroy VX, so whatever with them, they have a long way to go and likely wont stay Alaska for too much longer.

For Hawaiian: They are Hawaii, that's it, I flew them for the first time this year in Premium Econ on an A330 and expecting a truly amazing experience. It was very amateur and HNL is a disaster for passengers, never again with them.

B6 can be the top dog of these three easily for decades if they get their head out of wall street and into their actual business again


You come off as someone extremely hard to please...yeesh
“They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
 
AWACSooner
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Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:33 am

I want to see a DL/AA/UA/WN/AS/HA/B6/G4/NK/F9 merger and call it "Monopoly Airlines" Think of the route network! ;)
 
bzcat
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Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:40 am

AS + B6 merger will create another national hub/spoke network carrier so it makes some sense purely from a network and coverage perspective (not talking whether it is legally or financially feasible). The combined carrier will have hubs in NYC, Miami (FLL), LA, SF, and Seattle - not a bad setup. From a competitive standpoint, the combined carrier may have enough scale to scare the Big 3 network carrier.

Adding HA in the mix actually doesn't make any sense. HA is focused on a single market and it is best to just let it do what it does best.
 
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flybynight
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Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:44 am

Over a period of 10 years I think this makes a lot of sense.
First of all, no airline is too iconic. If so we'd certainly have the most iconic brand still flying strong with PanAm and TWA. Or Eastern.
Second, just how is Alaska "destroying" Virgin? Changes for sure, but Alaska has very good customer service and decent planes...and they are getting better. No purple lights or some of the other features of Virgin, but AS has a good culture. A very young fleet. New interiors coming and OK food.

As an AS Gold, there is one big issue I am seeing with their growth - they are a regional carrier for the most part, but the Big Three don't want to partner with AS because they are all competing now. Not having AA or DL to connect with through out the mid-west or Eastern region is a serious issue. Say I want to fly from Seattle to Syracuse or Providence, it becomes an issue if I want my miles towards AS.
AS needs a stronger network back East and B6 could be just the ticket.
Here is another airline with a strong following and culture. It would be a good complement to AS. Hawaiian maybe. I like the idea of the connections throughout Asia and Australia. This could be opened up even more with AS flight from SEA to Honolulu and contuining to Bangkok! How sweet would that be. And with B6's hubs it would be easy to expand into Europe and possibly Africa. Suddenly AS is a true grown up!

But as said, AS needs to finish the integration with Virgin. All those new A321's need to have a game plan (return them? Keep them?). If these three merge down the road, I would think keeping all those AB's would be a smart move for AS. Just change Proudly All Boeing to Our 737's are Proudly All Boeing :)
Heia Norge!
 
A320FlyGuy
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Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:49 am

Cunard wrote:
rj777 wrote:
1)AS hasn't finished merging with Virgin America yet
2)Hawaiian is too much of an icon to disappear
3)JetBlue.......same as Hawaiian


'too much of an icon to disappear'


Didn't somebody say that about:

Pan Am
TWA
Eastern
Continental
My other car is an A320-200
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:52 am

airportlover wrote:
Would a merger between Hawaiian, Alaska, and JetBlue work well?


I have seen numerous threads on this topic but I will share my bit:

I think a merger between AS and B6 could work, just not in the next few years, as long as they can expand some of their network focus away from the coasts and add throughout the middle of the country. The only sizable station they have in the middle of the country is DAL...

Also, what would the Departement say about such a merger? They would have to give up some assets, presumably
ORD & IND

AA & DL
 
Cointrin330
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Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:08 am

rj777 wrote:
1)AS hasn't finished merging with Virgin America yet
2)Hawaiian is too much of an icon to disappear
3)JetBlue.......same as Hawaiian


Neither HA or B6 are icons and even if they were, just look at PA and TW and where they are now. Either way, a merger between HA/AS/B6 isn't happening. While an AS/B6 merger is a more likely occurrence in the future, after AS has finished integrating VX into its operations, a B6/AS merger would attract considerable Justice Department scrutiny and likely result in some slot divestitures. Neither airline can afford the other and so the issue is moot.

Hawaiian is a niche player and a solid company, but it does not offer a network worthy of a merger. HNL airport isn't designed to be a transit hub for large scale volume and HA's long haul services to Asia, Micronesia, Australia and New Zealand do not necessarily coincide with connections from mainland US flights inbound to HNL.
 
hiflyeras
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Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:18 am

[list=][/list]
SFOtoORD wrote:
It would be pretty odd to have an airline that large with only coastal concentrations. You’d get some of the usual economies of scale, but not much network synergy.


AS has been very busy adding new mid-con flights from SEA, SFO, SJC, LAX and SAN...adding flights to MCI, STL, MSY, IND and others. This is a game plan not yet attempted by B6 and I'm not sure why. AS should buy B6 after digesting VX (after 2019) and then add mid-con flying from their east coast hubs.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:29 am

Midwestindy wrote:
airportlover wrote:
Would a merger between Hawaiian, Alaska, and JetBlue work well?


I have seen numerous threads on this topic but I will share my bit:

I think a merger between AS and B6 could work, just not in the next few years, as long as they can expand some of their network focus away from the coasts and add throughout the middle of the country. The only sizable station they have in the middle of the country is DAL...

Also, what would the Departement say about such a merger? They would have to give up some assets, presumably



I think DOJ would have little to say about an AS/B6 tie-up; they really only directly compete on a handful of routes. Asset divestiture, if any, would be limited to a few slots at JFK and possibly beyond-perimeter slots at DCA, but that should be it.

I do think HA has a role to play here, and that's throwing their A321NEOs plus the existing AS 737-900ERs into their West Coast to Hawaii routes while redeploying the A330s into international service from across the combined network.

This is also the one instance where I think all three brands should survive and co-exist under the holding company, presumably Alaska Air Group.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
wedgetail737
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Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:36 am

airportugal310 wrote:
NWADTWE16 wrote:
ill say this though, B6 needs to get their Customer Service (front facing at hub airports especially) in order. I have flown them very regularly throughout their system and starting with SJU a couple of years back and now really throughout their system, the agents are truly bad. Customers are ignored while they conversate with each other, and attitude up to and including challenging the customer to a fight has been witnessed more than once.
Ive written the carrier as to what ive experienced and even worse what ive seen and no response. Its truly sad because I love them, the flight crews are great, when the old A320 interiors are replaced (which cant happen fast enough) they come 2nd for me to Delta, but man, its embarrassing out there and that behavior is due to bad/lack of management.

For Alaska: Its well known I am off a rail at this carrier for being allowed to gobble up and destroy VX, so whatever with them, they have a long way to go and likely wont stay Alaska for too much longer.

For Hawaiian: They are Hawaii, that's it, I flew them for the first time this year in Premium Econ on an A330 and expecting a truly amazing experience. It was very amateur and HNL is a disaster for passengers, never again with them.

B6 can be the top dog of these three easily for decades if they get their head out of wall street and into their actual business again


You come off as someone extremely hard to please...yeesh


What this person doesn't realize is that the US domestic airline industry is not going to get better when it comes to service. He can certainly fly another airline with much less frills. A LOT of people find the AS/VX merger disappointing. But be glad that AS (with better customer service) is integrating with VX and not the likes of AA, UA or DL. Other than IFE, I really don't see a whole lot of tangible benefits between VX and AS. So all you VX lovers, get over it. It's happening. If you don't like it, then try the other, less accommodating airlines. All your bitching won't matter, just $$$$.
 
CobaltScar
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Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:03 am

This will happen in a few years. The new airline needs to focus on the "cool" JetBlue angle and not the creepy eskimo.

Hawaiian would just be killing off a cornered and faltering dino. They would have zero feed if Jetblue and (who else do they codeshare with?) cut them off. The flights from JetBlues new west coast hubs to Hawaii would be more profitable with Hawaiian put down.
 
michman
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Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:13 am

wedgetail737 wrote:
Not going to happen anytime soon. None of the three airlines can afford each other at this time.


Apparently you've never heard of a cashless merger. This is exactly how NW/DL, UA/CO, and AA/US all got together. If the entities all want to make it happen, they certainly can and will.
 
scoping2008
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Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:33 am

I think the DOJ would have an issue with any AS + HA merger. There are several overlapping routes and more coming with the continuing deliveries of HA's A321NEOs.

Moreover, I think there would be significant backlash over any attempt to destroy the HA name. Like it or now, Hawaiian Airlines is the transportation backbone of this state.

And Alaska Air Group isn't interested in running multiple brands (i.e. decision to retire the VX brand to avoid brand confusion and the economic infeasibility of pulling this off).

A B6 + AS tie-up? Maybe...but I think we'd need to see how the dust settles on the VX merger.
 
AAvgeek744
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Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:47 am

ADrum23 wrote:
An AS and B6 merger would be nice eventually, but AS needs to finish with the VX merger first and both need to build up their presence in the central part of the country.


AS doesn't need a merger in the future, B6 probably does. These two aren't going to get married. The only likely merger I see in the next few years might be NK + F9. B6 should have started to talking to VX long before AS did.. They may be the odd man out in this current airline environment.
 
wedgetail737
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Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:29 am

michman wrote:
wedgetail737 wrote:
Not going to happen anytime soon. None of the three airlines can afford each other at this time.


Apparently you've never heard of a cashless merger. This is exactly how NW/DL, UA/CO, and AA/US all got together. If the entities all want to make it happen, they certainly can and will.


Then it's a matter if these airlines truly want to merge. There is always the hostile takeovers. Are the mergers you mentioned really cashless. I hope you don't intend to mean that they didn't have any significant cost to the host party. In addition to approvals by stockholders and executive management, the takeover would involve purchasing the majority share of stock, right?
 
wedgetail737
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Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:31 am

CobaltScar wrote:
This will happen in a few years. The new airline needs to focus on the "cool" JetBlue angle and not the creepy eskimo.

Hawaiian would just be killing off a cornered and faltering dino. They would have zero feed if Jetblue and (who else do they codeshare with?) cut them off. The flights from JetBlues new west coast hubs to Hawaii would be more profitable with Hawaiian put down.


Not necessarily true. HA has existed a very long time without any mainland cooperation. Do you really think B6 has the financial means of buying any one right now? B6 doesn't even have airplanes with the required ETOPS authority to serve Hawaii. Even if B6 were to acquire HA, the FAA would still require B6 to train and test for ETOPS.
 
wedgetail737
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Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:34 am

scoping2008 wrote:
I think the DOJ would have an issue with any AS + HA merger. There are several overlapping routes and more coming with the continuing deliveries of HA's A321NEOs.

Moreover, I think there would be significant backlash over any attempt to destroy the HA name. Like it or now, Hawaiian Airlines is the transportation backbone of this state.

And Alaska Air Group isn't interested in running multiple brands (i.e. decision to retire the VX brand to avoid brand confusion and the economic infeasibility of pulling this off).

A B6 + AS tie-up? Maybe...but I think we'd need to see how the dust settles on the VX merger.


I agree the DOJ would have a major problem putting these three airlines together. The primary reason for purchasing VX are rights to additional resources at both SEA and LAX; and to prevent or slow down the likes of B6 and NK from developing a significant West Coast presence. DL is already giving AS a run for its money along the west coast.
 
rbavfan
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Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:51 am

airportlover wrote:
Would a merger between Hawaiian, Alaska, and JetBlue work well?

None of them are low-cost carriers, but none of them are legacy airlines. They are all considered boutique airlines with certain regional strengths and many network weaknesses. Joining the three airlines together would create a decent US (including Hawaii and Alaska, obviously) and Caribbean/South American network.

JetBlue has very strong brand loyalty in New York and Boston. People love JetBlue and will fly them whenever it is possible! Terminal 5 at JFK is excellent, even though it has to deal with NYC ATC delays. Its Florida and Caribbean network is excellent from both BOS and JFK, not to mention LGA and EWR. SJU is unique among US carriers, but it may not be as important in the near future due to the hurricane. FLL is another large operation, and B6 could build it up to rival MIA in terms of destinations. Or they could do the same with SJU, but I see FLL as more likely. Feed from Alaska's PNW network would really help this. The operation at Long Beach is also strong, albeit smaller. I see Long Beach being reduced to a small focus city or spoke in a merger scenario.

Hawaiian offers a great network within Hawaii, and it consistently rates well on customer service rankings, along with AS and B6. Hawaiian serves most major US cities, but they do have limited East Coast frequencies. However, Hawaii only seems to be becoming more popular among travelers, and there are well-heeled leisure travelers willing to pay for business class. Hawaiian has a large Asian and Australian/New Zealand network. This offers enticing connection opportunities from the ENTIRE US due to HNL's geographic location.

Alaska is very strong on the West Coast, with large operations in SFO, LAX, SAN, PDX, and SEA. This is unmatched among US carriers. No other airline offers the breadth of service from every major West Coast city. I only see this as an advantage in the current AS. With a merger, a few cities would have to be reduced and connections pushed through SEA and maybe SAN or SFO. PDX is probably too small, and LAX has no room. The Virgin America routes have brought in new customers to the brand, and it has helped AS with transcontinental service. Alaska is also a huge strength for the brand, and nobody can compete with them there. AS and B6 do have one gaping hole, though: the Midwest. I do not envision this changing, even with a merger. It is going to be tough for these airlines to crack those markets, and their customers may not really demand it. As long as the major markets are covered, a merged airline does not really need to worry about small cities between the coasts too much. They need to focus their energy on NYC, BOS, SEA, FLL, SJU, HNL, and one California city (whichever they choose to).

So, what do you guys think?


Hawaiian/Alaska merger would require dropping to many duplicated routes to et past the government watchdogs. Hawaiian/jetBlue on the other hand could easily fly. No overlap.
 
rbavfan
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Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:59 am

CantbeGrounded wrote:
rj777 wrote:
1)AS hasn't finished merging with Virgin America yet
2)Hawaiian is too much of an icon to disappear
3)JetBlue.......same as Hawaiian


HA and B6 more iconic than....Northwest? TWA? PSA....AIR JAMAICA (ok yes to that one) but still. Not sure anyone has passed up a good deal because the target was too iconic (the parceling of Pan Am).
AA and US got together before HP finished erasing themselves in the merger with US (or something). Close enough to the same thing?


Actually HP Purchased US and kept HP management & the US name because it was bigger. Then they purchased AA and merged them also keeping HP management & changing to the larger known AA name.
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3638
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:03 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
rj777 wrote:
1)AS hasn't finished merging with Virgin America yet
2)Hawaiian is too much of an icon to disappear
3)JetBlue.......same as Hawaiian


Neither HA or B6 are icons and even if they were, just look at PA and TW and where they are now. Either way, a merger between HA/AS/B6 isn't happening. While an AS/B6 merger is a more likely occurrence in the future, after AS has finished integrating VX into its operations, a B6/AS merger would attract considerable Justice Department scrutiny and likely result in some slot divestitures. Neither airline can afford the other and so the issue is moot.

Hawaiian is a niche player and a solid company, but it does not offer a network worthy of a merger. HNL airport isn't designed to be a transit hub for large scale volume and HA's long haul services to Asia, Micronesia, Australia and New Zealand do not necessarily coincide with connections from mainland US flights inbound to HNL.


On Jan 30th Hawaiian has been around for 89 years, has never had a death related to any accident & has never lost a airframe in those 89 years. It is also known all over the world. So yes it is an Icon.
 
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EA CO AS
Posts: 15797
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:05 am

rbavfan wrote:
CantbeGrounded wrote:
rj777 wrote:
1)AS hasn't finished merging with Virgin America yet
2)Hawaiian is too much of an icon to disappear
3)JetBlue.......same as Hawaiian


HA and B6 more iconic than....Northwest? TWA? PSA....AIR JAMAICA (ok yes to that one) but still. Not sure anyone has passed up a good deal because the target was too iconic (the parceling of Pan Am).
AA and US got together before HP finished erasing themselves in the merger with US (or something). Close enough to the same thing?


Actually HP Purchased US and kept HP management & the US name because it was bigger. Then they purchased AA and merged them also keeping HP management & changing to the larger known AA name.


Factually untrue; AA and US agreed to a merger, US did not acquire them. AMR was the surviving company, as was the AA certificate.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
strfyr51
Posts: 5106
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:47 am

I would work were any of the 3 carriers willing to subordinate themselves for the betterment of the Whole Enterprise. They would have the airplanes the route structure and the airport facilities. Now?? Would they have the Gumption to do it? I'd bet not. I worked for United before I retired. They were Still arguing about "who should run the show" rather than taking what was best from each to the betterment of all.. Consequently? A LOT of S-CO management went out the door as the forced a LOT of S-UA managment out the door. So United is now run By EX-American, Ex Northwest, And Ex-Delta Managers. (and frankly? They're Kickin' SOME BUTT!!)
 
jagraham
Posts: 1153
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Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:01 am

HA pax and RPMs up more than ASMs. Not the sign of a dying dodo airline

https://newsroom.hawaiianairlines.com/r ... horization
 
jagraham
Posts: 1153
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:10 pm

Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:04 am

EA CO AS wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
CantbeGrounded wrote:

HA and B6 more iconic than....Northwest? TWA? PSA....AIR JAMAICA (ok yes to that one) but still. Not sure anyone has passed up a good deal because the target was too iconic (the parceling of Pan Am).
AA and US got together before HP finished erasing themselves in the merger with US (or something). Close enough to the same thing?


Actually HP Purchased US and kept HP management & the US name because it was bigger. Then they purchased AA and merged them also keeping HP management & changing to the larger known AA name.


Factually untrue; AA and US agreed to a merger, US did not acquire them. AMR was the surviving company, as was the AA certificate.


In February 2013, American Airlines and US Airways announced plans to merge, creating, by some measurements, the largest airline in the world. In the deal, which was expected to close in the third quarter of 2013, stakeholders of AMR would own 72% of the company and US Airways shareholders would own the remaining 28%. The combined airline carries the American Airlines name and branding. The holding company was renamed American Airlines Group Inc.[13] The US Airways' management team, including CEO Doug Parker, retained most operational management positions. In effect, the management of US Airways took over American Airlines, but retaining the American name.[14]
 
axiom
Posts: 901
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Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:22 am

TWA772LR wrote:
rj777 wrote:
1)AS hasn't finished merging with Virgin America yet
2)Hawaiian is too much of an icon to disappear
3)JetBlue.......same as Hawaiian

What if they merge under a holding group while keeping the brands alive but streamline the FF programs? Horizon could be the regional for the combined airline.


Indeed, that's what I imagined. More of an EU holding group-style merger, with back end synergies but distinct public brands. Seems plausible to me. Consolidation doesn't appear to be slowing, globally.
 
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EA CO AS
Posts: 15797
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Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:33 am

jagraham wrote:
In the deal, which was expected to close in the third quarter of 2013, stakeholders of AMR would own 72% of the company and US Airways shareholders would own the remaining 28%. The combined airline carries the American Airlines name and branding. The holding company was renamed American Airlines Group Inc.[13] The US Airways' management team, including CEO Doug Parker, retained most operational management positions. In effect, the management of US Airways took over American Airlines, but retaining the American name.[14]


Nice try, but the two did agree to merge and create a holding company, American Airlines Group, and that the merged company would be known as American Airlines. AMR's stakeholders owned controlling interest, the surviving operating certificate was American. While AMR leadership agreed that Doug Parker and many from the US team had senior positions, US did not "acquire" AMR/AA.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
dampfnudel
Posts: 598
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:42 am

Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:15 am

I think before a B6/AS merger even becomes a possibility, DL will make an attempt to buy one of them with a fair chance of succeeding.
A313 332 343 B703 712 722 732 73G 738 739 741 742 744 752 762 76E 764 772 AT5 CR9 D10 DHH DHT F27 GRM L10 M83 TU5
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 2268
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:26 am

rbavfan wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
rj777 wrote:
1)AS hasn't finished merging with Virgin America yet
2)Hawaiian is too much of an icon to disappear
3)JetBlue.......same as Hawaiian


Neither HA or B6 are icons and even if they were, just look at PA and TW and where they are now. Either way, a merger between HA/AS/B6 isn't happening. While an AS/B6 merger is a more likely occurrence in the future, after AS has finished integrating VX into its operations, a B6/AS merger would attract considerable Justice Department scrutiny and likely result in some slot divestitures. Neither airline can afford the other and so the issue is moot.

Hawaiian is a niche player and a solid company, but it does not offer a network worthy of a merger. HNL airport isn't designed to be a transit hub for large scale volume and HA's long haul services to Asia, Micronesia, Australia and New Zealand do not necessarily coincide with connections from mainland US flights inbound to HNL.


On Jan 30th Hawaiian has been around for 89 years, has never had a death related to any accident & has never lost a airframe in those 89 years. It is also known all over the world. So yes it is an Icon.


None of those things factor into the dollars and sense considerations for a merger.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5703
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:34 am

No need for mergers. We need less mergers and more competition. These are three of the most profitable airlines. They all still have areas to expand. Why do they need to merge?
 
RalXWB
Posts: 526
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 9:36 am

Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:43 am

Hawaiian and JetBlue yes but not with Alaska...that would be horrible. Alaska has way too many Boeing people on its Board :stirthepot:
 
Jerry123
Posts: 321
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 9:58 pm

Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:47 pm

What is the American obsession with mergers? Why do any of these airlines need to merge with each other to be successful? They each have their own unique markets and seem to be doing well in them. They don't need to become one airline to expand or even cooperate.
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 776
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:18 pm

AAvgeek744 wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
An AS and B6 merger would be nice eventually, but AS needs to finish with the VX merger first and both need to build up their presence in the central part of the country.


AS doesn't need a merger in the future, B6 probably does. These two aren't going to get married. The only likely merger I see in the next few years might be NK + F9. B6 should have started to talking to VX long before AS did.. They may be the odd man out in this current airline environment.



Why would B6 need a merger but AS not? They basically mirror each other in size and scope on their respective coasts, except B6's coast has far more population plus is in range of the islands of the Caribbean and western Europe with narrow bodies, while Alaska is stuck with Hawaii and I suppose overlap with B6 in Mexico and central America.

Seems to me its AS with less options and less customer base.
 
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enilria
Posts: 10377
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:41 pm

rj777 wrote:
1)AS hasn't finished merging with Virgin America yet
2)Hawaiian is too much of an icon to disappear
3)JetBlue.......same as Hawaiian

AS/B6 is an inevitable merger that I hope never happens.
 
User avatar
william
Posts: 3359
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:56 pm

Jerry123 wrote:
What is the American obsession with mergers? Why do any of these airlines need to merge with each other to be successful? They each have their own unique markets and seem to be doing well in them. They don't need to become one airline to expand or even cooperate.


Thank you.

And I will keep saying this too, the same capacity restraint that has led to higher yields and profits could had been exercised when the Big 3 were the Big 6. 6 majors? I know, I know, how boring and noncompetitive that would be.
 
aeroblogger
Posts: 1397
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:53 am

Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:09 pm

airportlover wrote:
Would a merger between Hawaiian, Alaska, and JetBlue work well?

None of them are low-cost carriers, but none of them are legacy airlines.


Both AS and HA are legacy carriers.
#AvGeek
 
wedgetail737
Posts: 5335
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:44 am

Re: HA/B6/AS Merger

Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:19 pm

enilria wrote:
rj777 wrote:
1)AS hasn't finished merging with Virgin America yet
2)Hawaiian is too much of an icon to disappear
3)JetBlue.......same as Hawaiian

AS/B6 is an inevitable merger that I hope never happens.


I don't think it's envitable, but I agree. And I hope that merger never happens. However, I see B6 merging with NK more than AS. But that's just my opinion.

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