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KarelXWB
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Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement, to suspend Barcelona

Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:48 am

Carrier wants to get rid of its A340s and issued a RFP at Airbus and Boeing.

"Aerolineas Argentinas (AR, Buenos Aires Ezeiza) will decide on new wide-body aircraft by the end of 2018, with the options being Boeing B777s or B787s, or Airbus A350s, the carrier's CEO Mario Dell'Acqua told the Argentine press. The airline expects that the new aircraft will start arriving in 2019.

The Argentine flag carrier intends to retire two of its A340-300s in 2018. Aerolineas Argentinas currently operates three aircraft of the type, deploying them on transatlantic services from Buenos Aires Ezeiza to each of Madrid Barajas and Barcelona El Prat. After retiring two of the aircraft, the carrier will temporarily suspend its service to Barcelona.


As the result of A340s leaving the fleet, carrier will temporary suspend Barcelona service.

Aerolineas Argentinas currently operates three aircraft of the type [A340], deploying them on transatlantic services from Buenos Aires Ezeiza to each of Madrid Barajas and Barcelona El Prat. After retiring two of the aircraft, the carrier will temporarily suspend its service to Barcelona.

"At first, we had decided to incorporate two new A330-200s to sustain the route to Barcelona, ​​but then, analysing the situation, we realized that it was preferable to momentarily lose this destination and reformulate the operation," Dell'Acque said, quoted by iProfesional.


Article
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... es-in-4q18
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LAX772LR
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement

Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:31 am

Surprised that they aren't just going for high-MTOW A330s.

Wouldn't be surprised to see the A350 carry the day on this one. Seems like it'd be the closest match.
Maybe 789. Not sure what they'd want with a 777, unless they go used.
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giblets
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement

Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:41 am

I understand the A350 and A330 have a common type rating so guessing this should go in its favour, especially as they intend to keep the A330's round til 2021 (no mention of the retirement date of the remaining A340 for that matter).
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AR385
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement

Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:42 am

I believe they ARE replacing their A340S with A330s. They cannot afford another type, much less new.
 
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Embajador3
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement

Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:44 am

Now the question is what can Aerolíneas Argentinas really afford? So far, all their widebodies came from the second hand market. Can they really afford buying brand new A350s or B787s? Also, whatever they end up taking must be delivered fairly quickly, to support their plans to phase out the A340s.

I think that, in the end, they will end up with either used 777s or used A330s. Just my humble opinion!

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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement

Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:51 am

I agree what can they afford? Surely some Second hand A332’s hopefully HGW versions would be the best fit for a small long haul fleet.
 
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sergegva
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement

Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:59 am

Going from A340-300 to B777ER will be a huge increase in seat capacity (+40%). Can they make them work? Swiss did the same thing, so it's not impossible.
Otherwise, 2-hand 777-200ER are probably the cheapest option, but they are almost as inefficient as A340-300 now...
Last edited by sergegva on Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement

Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:01 am

AR385 wrote:
I believe they ARE replacing their A340S with A330s. They cannot afford another type, much less new.


Apparently the A330s are not suitable to replace all A340 routes. From the article:

Aerolineas Argentinas currently operates three aircraft of the type [A340], deploying them on transatlantic services from Buenos Aires Ezeiza to each of Madrid Barajas and Barcelona El Prat. After retiring two of the aircraft, the carrier will temporarily suspend its service to Barcelona.

"At first, we had decided to incorporate two new A330-200s to sustain the route to Barcelona, ​​but then, analysing the situation, we realized that it was preferable to momentarily lose this destination and reformulate the operation," Dell'Acque said, quoted by iProfesional.
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pabloeing
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement

Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:05 am

With the 2019 delivery....the only plane possible is the B777
 
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gatibosgru
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement

Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:07 am

A330 would seem like the logical option, unless they want the capacity increase for Spain flights. Can an A333 make it to BCN from EZE?

With the A330s leaving in 2021 and the A340s leaving by 2019 they really need something.
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement

Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:10 am

KarelXWB wrote:
AR385 wrote:
I believe they ARE replacing their A340S with A330s. They cannot afford another type, much less new.


Apparently the A330s are not suitable to replace all A340 routes. From the article:

Aerolineas Argentinas currently operates three aircraft of the type [A340], deploying them on transatlantic services from Buenos Aires Ezeiza to each of Madrid Barajas and Barcelona El Prat. After retiring two of the aircraft, the carrier will temporarily suspend its service to Barcelona.

"At first, we had decided to incorporate two new A330-200s to sustain the route to Barcelona, ​​but then, analysing the situation, we realized that it was preferable to momentarily lose this destination and reformulate the operation," Dell'Acque said, quoted by iProfesional.


Hmm it hardly makes sense to have a second type for 1 -2 routes. A350’s will be expensive but compatible with the A330’s, anything Boeing means retraining crews which as I say seems inefficient for a fleet of 3-4 aircraft unless they can push this number up with some sensible expansion.
 
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement

Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:21 am

787-9 seems the most obvious choice given how close it is to the A340-300's size. And its certainly closer to the A330-200's size than the A350-900 is.

Alternatively the A330neo might be a possibility. Its cheaper at least in capital costs (higher running costs though), lower in switching/retraining costs and EZE-MAD is feasible on the A330-900. They may or may not be interested in the A330-800 though...

It seems the most direct choices are 787-8 + 787-9 vs. A330-800 + A330-900. Latter are roomier and smaller, cheaper, lower switching costs and I think higher commonality? But lower commonality I think.
 
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement

Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:24 am

pabloeing wrote:
With the 2019 delivery....the only plane possible is the B777


I'd be slightly surprised if Airbus couldn't find a couple of A350 slots in 2019.
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L0VE2FLY
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement, suspends Barcelona

Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:33 am

The A330 should be able to do EZE-MAD/BCN and some of their A330s are very young, are they retiring the entire fleet?
 
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement

Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:33 am

gatibosgru wrote:
A330 would seem like the logical option, unless they want the capacity increase for Spain flights. Can an A333 make it to BCN from EZE?


A332 can (as per Level)

StudiodeKadent wrote:
787-9 seems the most obvious choice given how close it is to the A340-300's size. And its certainly closer to the A330-200's size than the A350-900 is.


That doesnt make any sense. Dreamliner is closer to A340 AND to A330 than the A350?

StudiodeKadent wrote:
Latter are roomier and smaller, cheaper, lower switching costs and I think higher commonality? But lower commonality I think.


You need to rewrite what you posted. Aside, commonality in this case goes all around A WBs.

PS: IMO this sounds like a great opportunity to fill A339 slots with a nice discount to push the backlog and EIS with an existing and needed customer.
Last edited by Jayafe on Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
Theseus
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement

Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:47 am

KarelXWB wrote:
Apparently the A330s are not suitable to replace all A340 routes. From the article:


I find this a bit intriguing. How could a 330NEO not work here ? I would guess the upcoming 251T versions should be very capable, even the 339. And it would be a perfect match to the A340 in size, while keeping great fleet commonality. And there should be some available slots in the not too distant future as well (for instance, with lessors).
 
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement, to suspend Barcelona

Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:47 am

The question is not what they want but what they can afford...most likely second-hand 77W's IMHO...


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Aesma
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement, to suspend Barcelona

Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:02 am

I wonder if they're stopping Barcelona in part because of the situation there, suddenly making the A340 flight unprofitable.
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Kikko19
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement, to suspend Barcelona

Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:03 am

DY effect?
 
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement

Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:13 am

scbriml wrote:
pabloeing wrote:
With the 2019 delivery....the only plane possible is the B777


I'd be slightly surprised if Airbus couldn't find a couple of A350 slots in 2019.

Agreed, but cha-ching. Can AR afford new top-of-the-line birds? I expect they go for used A330's.
 
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement

Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:17 am

Bricktop wrote:
Agreed, but cha-ching. Can AR afford new top-of-the-line birds?


Agreed - more a case of what they can afford rather than what they want. :yes:
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migair54
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement

Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:52 am

Bricktop wrote:
scbriml wrote:
pabloeing wrote:
With the 2019 delivery....the only plane possible is the B777


I'd be slightly surprised if Airbus couldn't find a couple of A350 slots in 2019.

Agreed, but cha-ching. Can AR afford new top-of-the-line birds? I expect they go for used A330's.


I don't think AR can afford any new plane right now, and I don't think the government is willing to help.



Where can they get used A330 in the next months?? who's replacing them??

The article only mention 3 A 340, but I guess they will try to close a deal to include the old A330, so in the future they can have only 1 fleet, otherwise it does not make too much sense, for only 3 frames, to bring any other plane that is not an A330. Some of the A330 in AR fleet are quite old, 14 to 19 years old.

I agree with some other guys that the B77W in 2 classes, will be around 400-450 seats, that's a very big number of seats, but in the past AR used to fly the B747, however still think that's too much and the B772 are too old.

few A380 are available in the market and I think it will be easy to find some more in the future........ :-)))))
 
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement, to suspend Barcelona

Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:06 pm

It is telling that they are outright rejecting the A330NEO
 
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement, to suspend Barcelona

Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:00 pm

seahawk wrote:
It is telling that they are outright rejecting the A330NEO

I bet price is the determining factor there too. Maybe a sweetheart deal from a lessor will appear.
 
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement, to suspend Barcelona

Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:01 pm

AR needs to have smaller long haul airplanes, they flew half empty 747 for decades and we know how that turned out. 787-9 would be perfect for AR for their size and range, AR could fly nonstop to CDG & LHR. IF demands supports more flights to Madrid or Miami then fly double daily. 77W, 777-9 and A350-900/1000 are too much airplane for AR. AR should look to its neighbor LATAM for how long haul should be done in that part of the world.
 
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement, to suspend Barcelona

Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:39 pm

Why aren't the A332 and A343 good enough any more? They can't possibly use twice as much fuel as other aircraft?

The B789 is also a very expensive aircraft and the backlog is massive, so I can't really see that as a realistic option either if AR is short on money.
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement, to suspend Barcelona

Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:04 pm

I would assume that with 4 engines on the A340 compared to a twin such as the A332 the A340 used more fuel with 4 engines.
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Kadish
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement, to suspend Barcelona

Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:19 pm

Aesma wrote:
I wonder if they're stopping Barcelona in part because of the situation there, suddenly making the A340 flight unprofitable.


I wonder why they stop BCN and not MAD.
I know that demand and yields are higher but also they face more competition..IB goes twice daily and sometimes 3 daily plus UX with the new 787 daily.

If they leave BCN the cake will go to Level and eventually to Norwegian....so hard to think in a come back.
 
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement, to suspend Barcelona

Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:12 pm

Interesting. Maybe the A332s were an interim solution? In any case, Airbus seems to have the edge in this tender.

Without knowing any details, I think maybe AR wants a new fleet that will allow it to serve all of its long-haul destinations and maybe add new? If so, AR is looking to order a plane capable of serving BOG, CUN, JFK, MIA, MAD, BCN, and FCO (did I miss any?). Perhaps they will also want to increase frequencies to some of the foregoing destinations, and relaunch MEX and maybe start something else such as CDG? For busiest times/seasons, perhaps the widebodies can also offer them added lift to destinations such as GRU, SCL. If the A339NEO is capable of serving all of these routes, then that could be a very sensible choice. The 789 should not be dismissed because it is also a very flexible plane for these needs. If Argentina's economy continues to expand, perhaps the extra passenger capacity that the A359 offers could be interesting to AR too! I agree that 777-9s would be overkill. Bargain-priced 77Ws might be interesting but I don't think AR will go that way.
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement, to suspend Barcelona

Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:24 pm

Probably better for AR to start other routes than CDG for which they can just code-share with AF, a Skyteam partner. I don’t understand why this code-share has never been put in place since AR joined Skyteam.
 
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement

Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:38 pm

migair54 wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
scbriml wrote:

I'd be slightly surprised if Airbus couldn't find a couple of A350 slots in 2019.

Agreed, but cha-ching. Can AR afford new top-of-the-line birds? I expect they go for used A330's.


I don't think AR can afford any new plane right now, and I don't think the government is willing to help.


You do realize AR is taking delivery of multiple new planes (737MAX) right now?
 
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement, to suspend Barcelona

Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:36 pm

Country and airline credit (sources at competitive prices) will be a challenge for the forseeable future. Partial share sale, including to offshore interests, and partial / total forgiveness of debt by the Government required. 787 engines issues and A330NEO delays has soaked up suitable aircraft to lease, and lifted rates.
 
Swadian
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement, to suspend Barcelona

Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:00 pm

Well, there's plenty of used 77E available if they want it. Don't know how efficiency compares to A343 though.
 
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement, to suspend Barcelona

Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:22 pm

Swadian wrote:
Well, there's plenty of used 77E available if they want it. Don't know how efficiency compares to A343 though.

But the majority are AIMS-1 (even after AIMs-2 introduced, existing operators specified 1), now incurring a considerable support overhead. For a newly created, small fleet, not cost effective. May as well bite the bullet, and keep paying CFM fees.

Leased, used A330 when current demand peak eases, will be the way to go, unless Boeing Capital steps up with a deal on it's portfolio of 788's.
 
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement, to suspend Barcelona

Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:30 pm

Must be a slow news day at ch-aviation. There is nothing in here that has not been discussed ad nauseaum on this board or that is newsworthy. And a lot of misinformed opinions and plain wrong information.

1. AR is dropping BCN because they are losing money on it, even though the planes are full. LEVEL's arrival to the route has depressed yields even further and the airline has decided to stop the hemorrhage. There are two A343X that are staying until 2020 and have been refurbished with new cabins and the latest AR AVOD suite, Bravo! Those were intended for BCN and as a back up for the A330 operations to Europe. Not sure to where they will be deployed moving forward. The remaining 2 A340s should be gone by March. Additionally the "proces" (how Catalans call their independence struggle) has left BCN fares and yields in the toilet and the airline thinks this is a long term phenomenon. While BCN traditionally had been a more leisure or VFR destination, what little higher yielding traffic existed has moved to EZE-MAD to where the airline is mulling about introducing a second daily in late 2018. Doubtless. BCN is low cost airline territory and Norwegian and LEVEL will fight it out on the EZE-BCN route.

2. What is this nonsense about AR not being able to afford planes? Where do some on here think that the money for over 30 brand new 738, MAX 8 and A332 is coming from? A new MAX 8 is arriving at a rate of one a month for the next few months. Airbus Boeing, Embraer et al, as well as lessors are all tripping over themselves trying to sell/lease new planes to AR. The news that AU will be replacing the 26 strong EMB-190AR fleet in the next 18 months has been like catnip for A & B.

3. AR already has 4 238/242T MTOW A332 and those are currently serving FCO and MAD. EZE-FCO is the longest by distance non stop flight by an A330.

4. AR has always said the 330s are a stop gap measure to replace the 340s, standardize and upgrade the on board hard product that has been AR's weak point and offer better economic performance overall. Long term, the 330s are not the ideal solution for further growth and that is why the airline is looking at the 350 and the 787 through RFPs. AR has already said it is not interested in the 777. The 200s are yesterday news, and the 77W and new versions are simply too big.

5. The MAX 8 is opening up new possibilities, especially in routes to places such as the Caribbean, where AR is doing quite well with its routes to PUJ and CUN. The airline has said it will familiarize itself with the new MAXs over the next 6 months by operating them domestically and then will announce where they will be deployed - its range from EZE and COR makes them great candidates to replace some of the A330 flying to PUJ, CUN and BOG.

6. AR is government owned and has a mandate to be self sufficient by end of 2019. AR has cleaned house considerably over the past two years and for the very first time in recent history the airline is returning money to the state's coffers. This is one of the reasons the airline is getting rid of unprofitable destinations such as BCN. Domestically and regionally within S.America (especially Brazil and Chile) AR is booming and that is where we will see the airline grow, especially around the COR hub. Long haul there won't be any new routes for the next 18-24 months and we will see the airline further leveraging the code shares with DL, UX, AZ, AF & KL and others.
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AtomicGarden
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement, to suspend Barcelona

Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:53 am

Adding to dcajet's very comprehensive response, I'd like to add that 330neo and 350 should be out of the question as they have RR engines, meaning a 3rd engine manufacturer in a rather small (in total) fleet, or at least I believe so. 2019 seems very optimistic, but is it unrealistic to think that half a dozen 789's could be leased within the next 2 years? 789's would be the most logical option, with a combination of range (N. America and western Europe), capacity (should do fine on a 30J/275Y config, no?) and an existing engine manufacturer. AR & Boeing have a nice business relationship.... but 777 are too big.

6 or 8 789 combined with 10 or 12 A330 can do good things for our network.

And on a related note, the MAX are gonna start flying to PUJ daily starting on May 1st and it's apparently a given to begin AUA operations also using 7M8.
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NearMiss
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement, to suspend Barcelona

Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:59 am

I'm seeing a future 787-9 deal. LATAM replaced they're A340s with 787s and it worked out quite nicely for them.
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement

Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:53 am

Embajador3 wrote:
Now the question is what can Aerolíneas Argentinas really afford? So far, all their widebodies came from the second hand market. Can they really afford buying brand new A350s or B787s? Also, whatever they end up taking must be delivered fairly quickly, to support their plans to phase out the A340s.

I think that, in the end, they will end up with either used 777s or used A330s. Just my humble opinion!

¡Felices Reyes a todos!


There are four high-MTOW A332s acquired new (the only wide-bodies owned by the airline outright; the A343s are all leased from various banks). Those are needed to and from FCO primarily though.

As for BCN, I don't see it returning when they can just codeshare with UX from MAD. As for future wide-body growth---what about leasing ex-AB A332s if any are still available for lease or sub-leasing A332s from Turkish Airlines (of the fleet put up for sublease)? These are P&W A332s, keeping in mind that unless a new model is introduced, it might not be good to introduce another engine type, which is why I'm not suggesting ex-EK A332s, which have RR engines.

As for B789s---when is the earliest that leased frames can be sourced?
 
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement, to suspend Barcelona

Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:07 am

LEVEL must be doing well on BCN-EZE. How many flights per week do they operate on the route? AR will never return to BCN, and LEVEL adding BCN-EZE made it even harder for them to do well on the route.

AR will no doubt keep MAD. MAD is served by AR, IB, and UX with multiple daily flights.

I also don't understand how both AR and AZ fly 14 flights a week between EZE and FCO. What makes the market big enough for two daily flights?
 
dcajet
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement

Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:26 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:

There are four high-MTOW A332s acquired new (the only wide-bodies owned by the airline outright; the A343s are all leased from various banks).


Although AR ordered that batch of 4 A332 from Airbus directly, AFAIK they were sold to and leased back from AerCap. The other 6 A332 are all leased too. The only planes that the Grupo Aerolineas owns are 22 out of the 26 E-190ARs, the remaining four are leased from Nordic Aviation Capital.

Not any A332 works for AR, regardless of engines. AR requires a tech crew rest area to comply with Argentina's rules regarding over 10-hour flights. Seating pilots on a business class seat won't do for flights to Europe. MIA, BOG, JFK, CUN and PUJ can be flown without the tech crew rest area, MAD, BCN and FCO. no. Additionally, AR is not interested in the RR Trent powered A332 for maintenance reasons.
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement, to suspend Barcelona

Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:34 am

Aren't their A332s basically new? Why are they being retired by 2021?
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dcajet
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement, to suspend Barcelona

Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:35 am

NichCage wrote:
LEVEL must be doing well on BCN-EZE. How many flights per week do they operate on the route? AR will never return to BCN, and LEVEL adding BCN-EZE made it even harder for them to do well on the route.

AR will no doubt keep MAD. MAD is served by AR, IB, and UX with multiple daily flights.

I also don't understand how both AR and AZ fly 14 flights a week between EZE and FCO. What makes the market big enough for two daily flights?


LEVEL is at 5x w, soon to be 6x w flights on the BCN-EZE.

55% of Argentinians have Italian ancestry. Traffic between the two countries is huge.While Argentina is a Spanish speaking country and was part of the Spanish colonies in the Americas, its cultural imprint is very much Italian.
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement, to suspend Barcelona

Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:43 am

gatibosgru wrote:
Aren't their A332s basically new? Why are they being retired by 2021?


Some of them are a bit older - maybe those are the ones ch-aviation is referring to. In any case, the answer is AR will need more capacity and range. FCO is at the very limit of the 242t version of the A332 range. At some point AR will resume growth mode in long haul and the A332 is a bit limited.if, say, the airline wants to return to SYD, LHR, FRA, etc.
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gatibosgru
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement, to suspend Barcelona

Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:44 am

dcajet wrote:
gatibosgru wrote:
Aren't their A332s basically new? Why are they being retired by 2021?


Some of them are a bit older - maybe those are the ones ch-aviation is referring to. In any case, the answer is AR will need more capacity and range. FCO is at the very limit of the 242t version of the A332 range. At some point AR will resume growth mode in long haul and the A332 is a bit limited.if, say, the airline wants to return to SYD, LHR, FRA, etc.


Would an A333 not work for them capacity wise for MAD/MIA while leaving the A332s for range to FCO? Unless they just see no future for the A330 period on their fleet.
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dcajet
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement, to suspend Barcelona

Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:49 am

gatibosgru wrote:
dcajet wrote:
gatibosgru wrote:
Aren't their A332s basically new? Why are they being retired by 2021?


Some of them are a bit older - maybe those are the ones ch-aviation is referring to. In any case, the answer is AR will need more capacity and range. FCO is at the very limit of the 242t version of the A332 range. At some point AR will resume growth mode in long haul and the A332 is a bit limited.if, say, the airline wants to return to SYD, LHR, FRA, etc.


Would an A333 not work for them capacity wise for MAD/MIA while leaving the A332s for range to FCO? Unless they just see no future for the A330 period on their fleet.


Madrid would be tight. Maybe the 242T A333 can make it but I don't see AR investing in more CEO A330s at this time. Clearly they want newer technology such as the 787, the A350 and I would not discount the A330 NEO.
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jbs2886
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement, to suspend Barcelona

Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:48 am

dcajet wrote:
2. What is this nonsense about AR not being able to afford planes? Where do some on here think that the money for over 30 brand new 738, MAX 8 and A332 is coming from? A new MAX 8 is arriving at a rate of one a month for the next few months. Airbus Boeing, Embraer et al, as well as lessors are all tripping over themselves trying to sell/lease new planes to AR. The news that AU will be replacing the 26 strong EMB-190AR fleet in the next 18 months has been like catnip for A & B.


Its pretty soon, but (since you seem to know) does AR have any initial thoughts on the MAX 8? Are they looking at acquiring more MAXes?
 
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seabosdca
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement, to suspend Barcelona

Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:09 am

I see this as a pretty fair contest between 787-9 and A350-900. The 787-9 seems ideal from a product perspective with its slightly smaller size, but the A350-900 will be easier to integrate into the fleet. For reasons stated above, the A330 in either neo or ceo form is not quite appropriate. For the small number of frames that are necessary in the short term, I expect there is availability from lessors for 2019 deliveries. More frames will come later, when there is more availability.
 
SCQ83
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement, to suspend Barcelona

Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:22 am

No surprise about AR leaving BCN. That airport is low-cost central; business traffic is not there. MAD can sustain three full-service carriers (IB, UX, AR) and BCN can only sustain a low-cost carrier. Spot the difference.

And that is even taking into consideration that Argentinians traditionally have a sweet spot for Barcelona, and it is one of the few VFR communities in Spain that is geared more towards BCN than MAD (compared to, let's say, Peruvians, Venezuelans or Colombians who are overwhelmingly concentrated in Madrid). For instance Italians are (or used to be until recently) the largest foreign community in Barcelona because (in addition to the large number of "born-in-Italy" Italians there) a large number of them were Argentinians with Italian passports.
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement, to suspend Barcelona

Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:33 am

Hmm well some here are going to be rather wrong. Surely the A330NEO would offer them enough for the current routes? Maybe they do have a few new/old routes in the plan? Will they return to SYD/AKL?

So some A332’s will remain? If so surely they would have to lease A350’s, but 2019 seems hopeful for new frames?
 
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RayChuang
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas mulls A340 replacement, to suspend Barcelona

Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:39 am

I would not be surprised that AR seriously looks at the 787-9. It's certainly got the range and just the right capacity to fly from EZE to most of Europe easily. They could consider the A350XWB-900, but that may be too much seating capacity for what the airline wants.

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