Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
MRYapproach
Topic Author
Posts: 105
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:10 am

Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:40 am

Last night I took the second 777 ever delivered: N774UA. It was set up for the latest in domestic cattle car accouterments: 10 wide, no screens, just a spring-loaded clamp for your personal device. yuck.

We made our connection with time to spare, but I was worried based on the lousy track record of the United Express feeder flights. The Bomb Cyclone only made things worse.

Fortunately, there were two later flights on UA from O'Hare to SFO in case we missed our connection. The later flights were 737 and 757s. It looks like UA runs a variety of aircraft between these hubs all day long.

With so many flights between hubs on smaller aircraft, why do airlines use widebodies like 777s and A330s for domestic runs? Seems like they would be better utilized on trans-ocean flights.
 
MO11
Posts: 1564
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 5:07 pm

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:48 am

MRYapproach wrote:
Last night I took the second 777 ever delivered: N774UA. It was set up for the latest in domestic cattle car accouterments: 10 wide, no screens, just a spring-loaded clamp for your personal device. yuck.


With so many flights between hubs on smaller aircraft, why do airlines use widebodies like 777s and A330s for domestic runs? Seems like they would be better utilized on trans-ocean flights.


Well, in this case the airplane did Hawaii trips and a Guam trip last week, then Saturday did a ORD-CUN roundtrip on a day which would be a heavy day for the route. Your flight positioned the plane back to SFO, so that it could resume Hawaii and Guam. Frequently, these flights are there just for routing, either for crew, maintenance, or just to make the schedule work.
 
User avatar
adamblang
Posts: 1277
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 5:47 pm

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:26 am

United uses widebodies hub to hub because a few years ago they were running a narrowbody every 45 minutes. That's not an efficient use of aircraft, gates, or crew. Using a widebody get the same number of passengers in the same number of seats in the same timeframe with less cost. In particular, the United 777s doing domestic runs are short-range 777A models that don't have real great range and are rather limited in what intercontinental routes they're actually capable of doing. Since they're range-limited, paid for, and cost effective, they end up on domestic routes.
 
User avatar
flyingclrs727
Posts: 2680
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:44 am

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:37 am

adamblang wrote:
United uses widebodies hub to hub because a few years ago they were running a narrowbody every 45 minutes. That's not an efficient use of aircraft, gates, or crew. Using a widebody get the same number of passengers in the same number of seats in the same timeframe with less cost. In particular, the United 777s doing domestic runs are short-range 777A models that don't have real great range and are rather limited in what intercontinental routes they're actually capable of doing. Since they're range-limited, paid for, and cost effective, they end up on domestic routes.


Plus they allowed United to redeploy narrow bodied planes to routes that were being flown with RJ's
 
User avatar
hOMSaR
Moderator
Posts: 2363
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:47 am

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:37 am

I don’t think ORD-SFO 777s are equipment positioning. They regularly run one morning and one evening flight westbound (with a mid- morning and a red eye eastbound), and while the planes can rotate to other routes, they can also turn from SFO and head right back to SFO. Based on how busy those specific flights are (and elite upgrade standby lists that can push three digits), I gather that these are timed for the busiest ORD-SFO periods. They also make a lot of the Asia connections at SFO, plus SYD and AKL. That adds a bit of traffic on top of your regular ORD-SFO O&D plus domestic connections.
I was raised by a cup of coffee.
 
MO11
Posts: 1564
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 5:07 pm

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:20 am

A moot point starting today...all 737s.
 
ericm2031
Posts: 1428
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:46 am

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:36 am

MRYapproach wrote:
just a spring-loaded clamp for your personal device. yuck.



I actually like those clamps that are built onto the seats. You get a much better screen and experience on your own tablet than what the airline would offer you if they built in screens. With all the free movies and TV shows UA has to offer, it is more than enough for a domestic flight. It is definitely way better than the 737's with DirecTV on them
 
User avatar
hOMSaR
Moderator
Posts: 2363
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:47 am

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:21 am

MO11 wrote:
A moot point starting today...all 737s.


Well ain't that something.
I was raised by a cup of coffee.
 
User avatar
KLMatSJC
Posts: 802
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:16 am

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:21 am

MO11 wrote:
A moot point starting today...all 737s.


I know that there are one (or more) on the SFO-LAS route for CES this week.
A318/19/20/21/21N A332/3 A343/5 A388 B712 B722 B732/3/4/7/8/9/9ER B744/4M B752/3 B762ER/3/3ER/4ER B772/E/L/W B788 CRJ2/7/9 Q400 EMB-120 ERJ-135/140/145/145XR/175 DC-10-10 MD-82/83/88/90

Long Live the Tulip, Cactus, and Redwood
 
strfyr51
Posts: 5106
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:38 am

The Real Question is?? Why NOT? If the passengers and freight connections are there?? It's a win-win.. How would you know the other stuff that's going on light the freight revenue? With a full load of belly freight? The passengers are pure profit. Leading up to the Christmas season in the past,
We flew B747's at some ungodly hours to places we never flew them to regularly Just to move US Mail and freight during the Holidays. During the Last quarter of the year, Freight is KING. And United sets all of this up early in the year and we're more flexible than ever before in routing and yield assignment. Money is Money. You plan for what you can Get. No matter how it looks to the uninformed. They don't really Need to know.
 
jayunited
Posts: 3099
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:46 pm

MO11 wrote:
A moot point starting today...all 737s.


Actually it is not a moot point the domestic 777's return to the ORD-SFO route late February and UA does run widebodies on other hub to hub routes.
Placing widebodies on hub routes frees up narrowbody aircraft especially during peak travel seasons instead of running hub to hub routes every 45 minutes to an hour. Widebodies on domestic routes also allows airlines like UA to move a lot more freight more efficiently. Instead of having to break down a pallet at SFO for example, UA can transfer the entire pallet onto a domestic widebody and once it arrives in Chicago UA can put the entire pallet on a truck and truck it to its final destination either here in Chicago or somewhere in the Midwest. Widebodies on hub to hub routes allow airlines to run a more efficient operation far beyond what passengers see and experience. If you look at the latest cargo report or quarterly report you will see UA's cargo tonnage is up month over month and year over year, widebodies are partially responsible for this uptick. Many passenger may not know that airlines like UA and I'm assuming AA and DL have extensive trucking operations. We partner with trucking companies to help move our cargo and some shippers when they build their pallet do not want airline employees breaking that shipment down and the paperwork will state shipper built do not bulk load. Meaning this shipment can not be loaded in the bulk pit but also it can not be broken down to be loaded on a narrow body. This is when widebodies on hub to hub routes can make a difference and save the shipper and receiver loads of time but also generate a lot of revenue for UA. For example lets say some company in Milwaukee order a large shipment from China however UA's PEK-ORD flight is completely book but there is open position on UA's SFO-PEK flight. The shipment is shipper built they don't want it broken down what are UA's option. The options are upon arrival at SFO UA could place the shipment on a truck from SFO-to Milwaukee (which would take days to reach Milwaukee) or UA could route the shipment PEK-SFO-ORD then place the shipment on a truck out of ORD's cargo facility and it could be in Milwaukee in a matter of hours instead of days.
 
User avatar
william
Posts: 3359
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:27 pm

Wow, I must be old. Am I the only one that remembers the days when Dc-10s, L1011s and 767 widebodies routinely connected hubs together?

AA used to fly DC10s and 767s between DFW and AUS. DL's ATL-MCO was almost all L1011s.

And now we are a point that Anetters think its odd to have widebody on a domestic flight?
 
Antarius
Posts: 2963
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:31 pm

Winter months tend to have a lot of widebody slack (due to less europe demand). A lot of airlines, instead of parking them or letting them go idle), deploy them domestically or to vacation destinations.

There is currently an AA international configuration A330 plying between Aruba and CLT, PHL-SFO etc. for winter months. Makes sense.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
FSDan
Posts: 3347
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:35 pm

As others have already said, widebodies fly domestic routes for various reasons including extra capacity, better utilization, repositioning between hubs, etc.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
User avatar
aeromoe
Posts: 1376
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:34 am

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:45 pm

william wrote:
Wow, I must be old. Am I the only one that remembers the days when Dc-10s, L1011s and 767 widebodies routinely connected hubs together?

AA used to fly DC10s and 767s between DFW and AUS. DL's ATL-MCO was almost all L1011s.

And now we are a point that Anetters think its odd to have widebody on a domestic flight?


Nope - you're no the only one who remembers this. At 53 years old and into the hobby for 40 years now, I've flown many domestic widebodies over the years. I often internally lament the demise of the widebody on the majority of U.S. domestic services that once were served regularly by them.

Having sad that, my most recent flight was a purposefully-booked flight on an AA A330-200 CLT-PHX back in December so I could "savor" the domestic widebody experience.

Moe
Since 60s: AA AC AS BA BD BF BN BR(85) BY B6 CO CZ(16) DG DL EA EI EN FI FL FT F9 HA HP ICX JI JQ J7 KE KL KS LH MC NW OC OO OZ(87) OZ(88) PA PI PN(97) PT QF QQ RM RO RV(99) RV(16) RW SK SM SQ S4 TI TS TW UA UK US UZ VS VX WA WN WS W7 XV YV YX(13) ZZ 9K
 
User avatar
aeromoe
Posts: 1376
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:34 am

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:51 pm

Antarius wrote:

There is currently an AA international configuration A330 plying between Aruba and CLT, PHL-SFO etc. for winter months. Makes sense.


According to Seat Guru and Seat Maestro there is only one configuration for each of the A330-200 and A330-300...so they're all "international configuration" aren't they?

Moe
Since 60s: AA AC AS BA BD BF BN BR(85) BY B6 CO CZ(16) DG DL EA EI EN FI FL FT F9 HA HP ICX JI JQ J7 KE KL KS LH MC NW OC OO OZ(87) OZ(88) PA PI PN(97) PT QF QQ RM RO RV(99) RV(16) RW SK SM SQ S4 TI TS TW UA UK US UZ VS VX WA WN WS W7 XV YV YX(13) ZZ 9K
 
Antarius
Posts: 2963
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:02 pm

aeromoe wrote:
Antarius wrote:

There is currently an AA international configuration A330 plying between Aruba and CLT, PHL-SFO etc. for winter months. Makes sense.


According to Seat Guru and Seat Maestro there is only one configuration for each of the A330-200 and A330-300...so they're all "international configuration" aren't they?

Moe


Yes.

I specified to elaborate as compared to UA, which has 777's in both configurations.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
gunnerman
Posts: 1164
Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 7:55 pm

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:23 pm

JL and NH used to operate 747-400Ds on their high-density domestic routes. JL configured theirs with 80 Class J seats and 466 Economy seats, making 546 in total.
 
User avatar
flyingclrs727
Posts: 2680
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:44 am

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:34 pm

william wrote:
Wow, I must be old. Am I the only one that remembers the days when Dc-10s, L1011s and 767 widebodies routinely connected hubs together?

AA used to fly DC10s and 767s between DFW and AUS. DL's ATL-MCO was almost all L1011s.

And now we are a point that Anetters think its odd to have widebody on a domestic flight?


The DFW-AUS route was the last flight if the day. The plane would then overnight at AUS (Mueller). By overnighting in AUS, AA could pay lower parking fees than at DFW. It would then be in position for the first flight of the day to fly lots of passengers for both O&D for the beginning of the business day and for early morning connections.

This was long before Bergstrom airport opened. At that time 727's were the only narrow body had enough range to fly to either the east or west coasts from Mueller's runways. Austin was also a much smaller city than now, so it couldn't really support the number and passenger volume of the flights it gas today.

The opening of Bergstrom with it's 12,000 foot runway and the availability of Airbus A320 series and 737NG aircraft to fly anywhere in the contiguous states from there, greatly cut down on the need to to fly through DFW for connections from AUS. The booming economy in Austin since the 1980s meant that there are more people to fill seats on nonstop flights to more destinations. With more flights bypassing hubs, the need for domestic widebody service is lessened.
 
910A
Posts: 1894
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:11 am

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:52 pm

william wrote:
Wow, I must be old. Am I the only one that remembers the days when Dc-10s, L1011s and 767 widebodies routinely connected hubs together?

AA used to fly DC10s and 767s between DFW and AUS. DL's ATL-MCO was almost all L1011s.

And now we are a point that Anetters think its odd to have widebody on a domestic flight?


You must be since I am...I used to fly the 747's, L-1011's, 767's, DC-10's on the SFO-LAX route on various carriers.
 
User avatar
william
Posts: 3359
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:54 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
william wrote:
Wow, I must be old. Am I the only one that remembers the days when Dc-10s, L1011s and 767 widebodies routinely connected hubs together?

AA used to fly DC10s and 767s between DFW and AUS. DL's ATL-MCO was almost all L1011s.

And now we are a point that Anetters think its odd to have widebody on a domestic flight?


The DFW-AUS route was the last flight if the day. The plane would then overnight at AUS (Mueller). By overnighting in AUS, AA could pay lower parking fees than at DFW. It would then be in position for the first flight of the day to fly lots of passengers for both O&D for the beginning of the business day and for early morning connections.

This was long before Bergstrom airport opened. At that time 727's were the only narrow body had enough range to fly to either the east or west coasts from Mueller's runways. Austin was also a much smaller city than now, so it couldn't really support the number and passenger volume of the flights it gas today.

The opening of Bergstrom with it's 12,000 foot runway and the availability of Airbus A320 series and 737NG aircraft to fly anywhere in the contiguous states from there, greatly cut down on the need to to fly through DFW for connections from AUS. The booming economy in Austin since the 1980s meant that there are more people to fill seats on nonstop flights to more destinations. With more flights bypassing hubs, the need for domestic widebody service is lessened.


Yes, I know, I used worked the at Mueller Airport. Do you remember when the DC-10 put its right main in the grass?

Bergstrom is a much better airport and suited to today's fast growing Austin,but Mueller had so many fun memories and stories. :(

The old tower-

https://www.google.com/maps/@30.2913895 ... 312!8i6656

The DC-10 would be moved from its overnight spot west of the terminal to the gate early in the morning. One time I thought I missed my flight because I saw it moving, only to find out it was jut be positioned to the gate...........Whew!!! The 767 flights were during the day. It was a fun time to be an aviation enthusiastic.
Last edited by william on Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
spinotter
Posts: 817
Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 1:37 am

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:05 pm

MRYapproach wrote:
Last night I took the second 777 ever delivered: N774UA. It was set up for the latest in domestic cattle car accouterments: 10 wide, no screens, just a spring-loaded clamp for your personal device. yuck.

We made our connection with time to spare, but I was worried based on the lousy track record of the United Express feeder flights. The Bomb Cyclone only made things worse.

Fortunately, there were two later flights on UA from O'Hare to SFO in case we missed our connection. The later flights were 737 and 757s. It looks like UA runs a variety of aircraft between these hubs all day long.

With so many flights between hubs on smaller aircraft, why do airlines use widebodies like 777s and A330s for domestic runs? Seems like they would be better utilized on trans-ocean flights.


The word is accoutrements, please.
 
alan3
Posts: 426
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:13 am

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:07 pm

I know this thread is US but just to remind that AC uses all of its widebody types (77W, 333, 788. 789 and 763) on domestic routes like YVR-YYZ and YVR-YUL And the configuration is the same as international I believe. The OP seems to be complaining about the widebody configuration on his UA domestic flight but I can't see it being much less comfortable than domestic configurations these days.

When I fly transcon Canada, I only book widebody aircraft if possible. I won't sit 5 hours on a A320.

Obviously Canada has a less competitive airline environment but the transcon distances are the same, and they are flying widebodies with a much smaller population.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 5106
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:17 pm

jayunited wrote:
MO11 wrote:
A moot point starting today...all 737s.


Actually it is not a moot point the domestic 777's return to the ORD-SFO route late February and UA does run widebodies on other hub to hub routes.
Placing widebodies on hub routes frees up narrowbody aircraft especially during peak travel seasons instead of running hub to hub routes every 45 minutes to an hour. Widebodies on domestic routes also allows airlines like UA to move a lot more freight more efficiently. Instead of having to break down a pallet at SFO for example, UA can transfer the entire pallet onto a domestic widebody and once it arrives in Chicago UA can put the entire pallet on a truck and truck it to its final destination either here in Chicago or somewhere in the Midwest. Widebodies on hub to hub routes allow airlines to run a more efficient operation far beyond what passengers see and experience. If you look at the latest cargo report or quarterly report you will see UA's cargo tonnage is up month over month and year over year, widebodies are partially responsible for this uptick. Many passenger may not know that airlines like UA and I'm assuming AA and DL have extensive trucking operations. We partner with trucking companies to help move our cargo and some shippers when they build their pallet do not want airline employees breaking that shipment down and the paperwork will state shipper built do not bulk load. Meaning this shipment can not be loaded in the bulk pit but also it can not be broken down to be loaded on a narrow body. This is when widebodies on hub to hub routes can make a difference and save the shipper and receiver loads of time but also generate a lot of revenue for UA. For example lets say some company in Milwaukee order a large shipment from China however UA's PEK-ORD flight is completely book but there is open position on UA's SFO-PEK flight. The shipment is shipper built they don't want it broken down what are UA's option. The options are upon arrival at SFO UA could place the shipment on a truck from SFO-to Milwaukee (which would take days to reach Milwaukee) or UA could route the shipment PEK-SFO-ORD then place the shipment on a truck out of ORD's cargo facility and it could be in Milwaukee in a matter of hours instead of days.

actually?? Unless they're Airline or Airline related rhey might be hard pressed to know wht's going on in the Airline business or Cargo business without Airline business magazine.
 
User avatar
flyingclrs727
Posts: 2680
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:44 am

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:44 pm

william wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
william wrote:
Wow, I must be old. Am I the only one that remembers the days when Dc-10s, L1011s and 767 widebodies routinely connected hubs together?

AA used to fly DC10s and 767s between DFW and AUS. DL's ATL-MCO was almost all L1011s.

And now we are a point that Anetters think its odd to have widebody on a domestic flight?


The DFW-AUS route was the last flight if the day. The plane would then overnight at AUS (Mueller). By overnighting in AUS, AA could pay lower parking fees than at DFW. It would then be in position for the first flight of the day to fly lots of passengers for both O&D for the beginning of the business day and for early morning connections.

This was long before Bergstrom airport opened. At that time 727's were the only narrow body had enough range to fly to either the east or west coasts from Mueller's runways. Austin was also a much smaller city than now, so it couldn't really support the number and passenger volume of the flights it gas today.

The opening of Bergstrom with it's 12,000 foot runway and the availability of Airbus A320 series and 737NG aircraft to fly anywhere in the contiguous states from there, greatly cut down on the need to to fly through DFW for connections from AUS. The booming economy in Austin since the 1980s meant that there are more people to fill seats on nonstop flights to more destinations. With more flights bypassing hubs, the need for domestic widebody service is lessened.


Yes, I know, I used worked the at Mueller Airport. Do you remember when the DC-10 put its right main in the grass?

Bergstrom is a much better airport and suited to today's fast growing Austin,but Mueller had so many fun memories and stories. :(

The old tower-

https://www.google.com/maps/@30.2913895 ... 312!8i6656

The DC-10 would be moved from its overnight spot west of the terminal to the gate early in the morning. One time I thought I missed my flight because I saw it moving, only to find out it was jut be positioned to the gate...........Whew!!! The 767 flights were during the day. It was a fun time to be an aviation enthusiastic.


I only flew into Mueller twice, once on a private plame and once on WN. I've lived most of my life in Corpus Christi. I rarely ever fly out of CRP anymore due to scheduling and price. Even though every WN flight from CRP goes to HOU, and most continue on to DAL, a large proportion of the destinations available from HOU and DAL are not available from the WN website if starting or ending in CRP. AUS Bergstrom is more convenient for my wife and me than driving to SAT, HOU, or IAH. My brother lives about 15 minutes from AUS, and we can get on early morning flights conveniently after a good night's sleep.
 
User avatar
exFWAOONW
Posts: 742
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:32 pm

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:17 pm

william wrote:
Wow, I must be old. Am I the only one that remembers the days when Dc-10s, L1011s and 767 widebodies routinely connected hubs together?

AA used to fly DC10s and 767s between DFW and AUS. DL's ATL-MCO was almost all L1011s.

And now we are a point that Anetters think its odd to have widebody on a domestic flight?
I remember when they even used widebody a/c to their large outlying stations, not just hub-hub. How many widebodies were there on ORD/DTW/CVG/ATL to places like MCO, LAX, SFO, HNL, BOS?
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10446
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:25 pm

We know that an airline with a number of hubs and a large enough fleet can have wide body a/c that are already paid off doing domestic runs to consolidate some traffic, what I want to see is one them them deploy brand new frames on these runs on a continuous basis, not a re-positioning flight, when that happens we know things and times are changing.
 
User avatar
flyingclrs727
Posts: 2680
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:44 am

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:31 pm

exFWAOONW wrote:
william wrote:
Wow, I must be old. Am I the only one that remembers the days when Dc-10s, L1011s and 767 widebodies routinely connected hubs together?

AA used to fly DC10s and 767s between DFW and AUS. DL's ATL-MCO was almost all L1011s.

And now we are a point that Anetters think its odd to have widebody on a domestic flight?
I remember when they even used widebody a/c to their large outlying stations, not just hub-hub. How many widebodies were there on ORD/DTW/CVG/ATL to places like MCO, LAX, SFO, HNL, BOS?


I wouldn't put HNL in that group. It might be an out station, but it's almost long haul; plus it's over the Pacific ocean with no possible diversion airports till reaching the Hawaiian islands. Prior to ETOPS implementation in the 1980's, they had to fly planes with at least 3 engines. That pretty much limited it to 707's, DC-8's, 747's, DC-10's, and Tristars.
 
User avatar
william
Posts: 3359
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:36 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
william wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:

The DFW-AUS route was the last flight if the day. The plane would then overnight at AUS (Mueller). By overnighting in AUS, AA could pay lower parking fees than at DFW. It would then be in position for the first flight of the day to fly lots of passengers for both O&D for the beginning of the business day and for early morning connections.

This was long before Bergstrom airport opened. At that time 727's were the only narrow body had enough range to fly to either the east or west coasts from Mueller's runways. Austin was also a much smaller city than now, so it couldn't really support the number and passenger volume of the flights it gas today.

The opening of Bergstrom with it's 12,000 foot runway and the availability of Airbus A320 series and 737NG aircraft to fly anywhere in the contiguous states from there, greatly cut down on the need to to fly through DFW for connections from AUS. The booming economy in Austin since the 1980s meant that there are more people to fill seats on nonstop flights to more destinations. With more flights bypassing hubs, the need for domestic widebody service is lessened.


Yes, I know, I used worked the at Mueller Airport. Do you remember when the DC-10 put its right main in the grass?

Bergstrom is a much better airport and suited to today's fast growing Austin,but Mueller had so many fun memories and stories. :(

The old tower-

https://www.google.com/maps/@30.2913895 ... 312!8i6656

The DC-10 would be moved from its overnight spot west of the terminal to the gate early in the morning. One time I thought I missed my flight because I saw it moving, only to find out it was jut be positioned to the gate...........Whew!!! The 767 flights were during the day. It was a fun time to be an aviation enthusiastic.


I only flew into Mueller twice, once on a private plame and once on WN. I've lived most of my life in Corpus Christi. I rarely ever fly out of CRP anymore due to scheduling and price. Even though every WN flight from CRP goes to HOU, and most continue on to DAL, a large proportion of the destinations available from HOU and DAL are not available from the WN website if starting or ending in CRP. AUS Bergstrom is more convenient for my wife and me than driving to SAT, HOU, or IAH. My brother lives about 15 minutes from AUS, and we can get on early morning flights conveniently after a good night's sleep.


Never made sense to me the way WN treats Corpus Christi. Why CC cannot have a flight direct to DAL is beyond me, its been like that for some time.

Interesting going to AUS is easier for you then going up I-37 to SAT.
 
User avatar
william
Posts: 3359
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:39 pm

exFWAOONW wrote:
william wrote:
Wow, I must be old. Am I the only one that remembers the days when Dc-10s, L1011s and 767 widebodies routinely connected hubs together?

AA used to fly DC10s and 767s between DFW and AUS. DL's ATL-MCO was almost all L1011s.

And now we are a point that Anetters think its odd to have widebody on a domestic flight?
I remember when they even used widebody a/c to their large outlying stations, not just hub-hub. How many widebodies were there on ORD/DTW/CVG/ATL to places like MCO, LAX, SFO, HNL, BOS?


Yep, remember when advertising a widebody on a route gave the carrier a marketing advantage.
 
trnswrld
Posts: 1386
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 2:19 am

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:40 pm

I must be getting old enough to have experienced a nice variety of wide bodies on short flights as well. I recall being on a 767-200 between ORD and STL, and a L1011 between STL and MCO and JFK.
 
User avatar
william
Posts: 3359
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:48 pm

par13del wrote:
We know that an airline with a number of hubs and a large enough fleet can have wide body a/c that are already paid off doing domestic runs to consolidate some traffic, what I want to see is one them them deploy brand new frames on these runs on a continuous basis, not a re-positioning flight, when that happens we know things and times are changing.


There is not a widebody aircraft sold today geared toward high cylces domestic flying. Some will say the A330R, but is it really? I have posted this before, could it take the daily flogging the TriStars and the 767s took out of ATL day in and day out, the one hour puddle jumps to MCO from ATL.

An A321 CEO and NEO can hold almost the same amount as a 767-200, there is your new widebody......................Yeah.

Leeham had a report of wishing the new MOM will be more of a domestic WB type aircraft, we will see.
 
330lover
Posts: 649
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:11 am

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:57 pm

william wrote:
Wow, I must be old. Am I the only one that remembers the days when Dc-10s, L1011s and 767 widebodies routinely connected hubs together?

AA used to fly DC10s and 767s between DFW and AUS. DL's ATL-MCO was almost all L1011s.

And now we are a point that Anetters think its odd to have widebody on a domestic flight?


What's old these days? :)

I remember UA flying 767's between BRU and LHR.
2 x daily if I'm right. Both continued to US, think it was ORD and IAD?

This must be more remarkable than connecting large domestic cities...

To go short: if the demand is there, and the equipment is there, why not connect domestic on WB aircraft.
Last edited by 330lover on Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Britten Norman Islander VP-FBR on Falkland Islands. THAT'S FLYING!
 
User avatar
flymco753
Posts: 3461
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:09 am

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:00 pm

I remember back in the late '90's flying between Orlando and Detroit on DC-10's and sometimes they would swap it out with the 747-200. I specifically remember the 747-200 because I bugged someone sitting by the window to the point where he let me sit by the window.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
AAvgeek744
Posts: 750
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:08 pm

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:12 pm

william wrote:
Wow, I must be old. Am I the only one that remembers the days when Dc-10s, L1011s and 767 widebodies routinely connected hubs together?

AA used to fly DC10s and 767s between DFW and AUS. DL's ATL-MCO was almost all L1011s.

And now we are a point that Anetters think its odd to have widebody on a domestic flight?


I agree with ya. UA flew D10's and 747's to cities such as PIT, CLE, BDL. AA ORD - BUF, SYR, BDL. At one time virtually every DL flight to Florida was a widebody. My first flight on a 747 was JAX-ATL. I guess I do feel old.
 
cvgComair
Posts: 2040
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:48 pm

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:16 pm

exFWAOONW wrote:
william wrote:
Wow, I must be old. Am I the only one that remembers the days when Dc-10s, L1011s and 767 widebodies routinely connected hubs together?

AA used to fly DC10s and 767s between DFW and AUS. DL's ATL-MCO was almost all L1011s.

And now we are a point that Anetters think its odd to have widebody on a domestic flight?
I remember when they even used widebody a/c to their large outlying stations, not just hub-hub. How many widebodies were there on ORD/DTW/CVG/ATL to places like MCO, LAX, SFO, HNL, BOS?

DL had widebodies on CVG-JFK/ATL/MCO/LAX/SLC/BDL/LAS/PDX/HNL/SFO/SEA, possibly a few other cities as well over the years. For awhile CVG-PDX was 2x763 + 1x738, LAX was 1x763 + 5x752. Personally, I find it crazy that CVG-BDL had a 763 in addition to 2x752 and 1xMD80.
 
User avatar
flyingclrs727
Posts: 2680
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:44 am

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:16 pm

william wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
william wrote:

Yes, I know, I used worked the at Mueller Airport. Do you remember when the DC-10 put its right main in the grass?

Bergstrom is a much better airport and suited to today's fast growing Austin,but Mueller had so many fun memories and stories. :(

The old tower-

https://www.google.com/maps/@30.2913895,-97.6989785,3a,75y,346.57h,86.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBcfKRXgV7fx-o0CbqclKIw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

The DC-10 would be moved from its overnight spot west of the terminal to the gate early in the morning. One time I thought I missed my flight because I saw it moving, only to find out it was jut be positioned to the gate...........Whew!!! The 767 flights were during the day. It was a fun time to be an aviation enthusiastic.


I only flew into Mueller twice, once on a private plame and once on WN. I've lived most of my life in Corpus Christi. I rarely ever fly out of CRP anymore due to scheduling and price. Even though every WN flight from CRP goes to HOU, and most continue on to DAL, a large proportion of the destinations available from HOU and DAL are not available from the WN website if starting or ending in CRP. AUS Bergstrom is more convenient for my wife and me than driving to SAT, HOU, or IAH. My brother lives about 15 minutes from AUS, and we can get on early morning flights conveniently after a good night's sleep.


Never made sense to me the way WN treats Corpus Christi. Why CC cannot have a flight direct to DAL is beyond me, its been like that for some time.

Interesting going to AUS is easier for you then going up I-37 to SAT.



Some times I go on US 181. Anyway its a hassle to catch a flight from SAT in the morning driving from CC. I would have to allocate at least 2.5 hours to drive from home to SAT. I would want to arrive at SAT at least 1.5 hours before scheduled departure. Also, I would want to wake up at least an hour before I leave, shower, have breakfast and coffee, and pack the car. That means waking up at 2 am to catch a 7 am flight at SAT. I can stay overnight at my brother's place in Austin and get a full night's sleep before getting up to catch a flight. Plus there are more destinations at better prices available from AUS. HOU is at least another hour's driving time from CC than SAT. To fly out of there in the early morning, I would need to stay in a hotel. The area around HOU is not such a great place.

IAH is a whole extra hour of driving on top of that. It's worthwhile to drive there for international flights. My wife visits her family in Ukrraine about once a year, so I end up driving to IAH to to drop her off at the Turkish airline desk and then make another trip to pick her up when she returns. Till recently the cost of adding a round trip on United Express from CRP to IAH to an IAH-IST-ODS round trip was at least $1,000. Also TK gives 2 free bags on flights to and from North America. United charges $100 for a second bag on an international itinerary. I noticed recently United had connecting flights listed on the Turkish website, but the return flight requires staying overnight in order to get the connecting flight back to CRP. They do technically have a flight that could connect the same night, but it's outrageously expensive and doesn't give enough time to clear customs for anyone who is not a US citizen. The flight to IAH from CRP to catch the TK flight leaves so early in the afternoon, that I would actually have to leave the house earlier to catch that flight than to drive to IAH. There's something like a 4 or 5 hour layover.
 
User avatar
flyingclrs727
Posts: 2680
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:44 am

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:22 pm

william wrote:

Never made sense to me the way WN treats Corpus Christi. Why CC cannot have a flight direct to DAL is beyond me, its been like that for some time.

Interesting going to AUS is easier for you then going up I-37 to SAT.


I wish WN had an efficient 100 to 120 seat aircraft to allow more frequencies to smaller markets. It's the lack of frequencies that causes many destinations available from HOU and DAL to be unavailable from CRP.
 
airbazar
Posts: 10220
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:32 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
The Real Question is?? Why NOT? If the passengers and freight connections are there?? It's a win-win..

It's not because 1 772 is typically more expensive to operate than 2 narrowbodies.
The real reason is that these were ordered back when it was common practice to operate widebodies on trunk routes. That model has gone the way of the dodo but United still has the equipment, which is paid off, and not ready to retire them yet. But I guarantee you that in due time, the domestic 777's will be replaced by narrowbodies instead of additional widebodies.
 
adam47150
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:21 pm

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:17 pm

I'm not "old" but I have a terrible memory. The very first flight I ever took was on, what my mind is telling me, a UA 767 from IND-DEN Stapleton back in 92 or 93. I believe our return flight was also on a UA 767, but that part of my memory is fuzzier than the rest.
 
Armadillo1
Posts: 586
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:14 pm

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:34 pm

william wrote:
An A321 CEO and NEO can hold almost the same amount as a 767-200, there is your new widebody......................Yeah.
.

same for 757 but that times 767 used.
may be people changed and|or changed the people who flying?
 
thegoldenargosy
Posts: 618
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:14 am

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:45 pm

I wish more airlines flew domestic wide bodies. I've flown only a few in the last 20+ years.

DL ATL-MCO L1011
DL ATL-HNL A330
DL JFK-LAX 763

UA SFO-DEN 772
UA ORD-IAD 772

US LAX-PHL 762
 
Kno
Posts: 584
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:08 pm

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:47 pm

I still try to catch a domestic widebody as much as I possibly can. Most of my travel is between BOS - West Coast or BOS-ORD. Fortunately there are still many options for catching transcon widebodies between UAs 777 BOS-SFO, and numerous connecting opportunities on DL and UA and AA to catch a widebody to LAX and SFO (and sometimes SAN on DL). BOS-ORD I can catch a 757-300 which is novelty enough! Regardless of onboard product I couldn't be more sick of flying a320s and 737s. As an aviation enthusiast I miss having some variety in our flight schedules so I'll take every little bit I can get while it lasts.
 
User avatar
FlightLevel360
Posts: 406
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:26 pm

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:50 pm

UA977/1611 is a repositioning flight for the 3-class 777ER running between Chicago and Newark. This is so that the 77E can be used on South American/European routes out of EWR as well as European routes out of ORD. Having the plane do something like EWR-MUC-ORD (Which is a random route I made up, by the way) would probably result in the plane spending too much time on the ground in Europe, so why not operate an extra flight using the time. I booked both frequencies next month, and honestly they are so much better than the 737s (tight legroom) and A320s (ULCC type cabin) that frequent this route.
To me, it will always be:
- Bombardier CSeries
- Airbus A321neoLR and A321neoXLR
- EMBRACER ERJ-170, ERJ-175, ERJ-190, and ERJ-195
- MITSUBUSHI MRJ

Anti narrowbody-long range-twinjet gang. Long live the A380 and 747!
 
User avatar
ojjunior
Posts: 994
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:31 am

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:55 pm

LATAM has daily GRU-GIG service with the 763, merely 45 mins on the air, roundtrip flight, among a infinity of other SAO-RIO flights.
 
User avatar
reffado
Posts: 563
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:47 am

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:08 pm

ojjunior wrote:
LATAM has daily GRU-GIG service with the 763, merely 45 mins on the air, roundtrip flight, among a infinity of other SAO-RIO flights.


Isn’t that a matter of simply aircraft utilization; though? As in, it’s better to run this short flight than to have the 763 sitting at GRU between longer missions?

Regardless, your point stands. Back in the day, RG would run MD11, 763 and even 772 aircraft between MAO, GIG, GRU and BSB, though the exact routes escape me. I believe one of them was GIG-BSB-MAO-BSB-GIG.
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 3568
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:29 pm

reffado wrote:
ojjunior wrote:
LATAM has daily GRU-GIG service with the 763, merely 45 mins on the air, roundtrip flight, among a infinity of other SAO-RIO flights.


Isn’t that a matter of simply aircraft utilization; though? As in, it’s better to run this short flight than to have the 763 sitting at GRU between longer missions?

Regardless, your point stands. Back in the day, RG would run MD11, 763 and even 772 aircraft between MAO, GIG, GRU and BSB, though the exact routes escape me. I believe one of them was GIG-BSB-MAO-BSB-GIG.


Looking at some flight history (FR24), not really. JJ3570 arrives in GIG in 1045. Sometimes that turn into JJ8056/8057 (Running GIG-MIA-GIG), sometimes not. But either way, seems like the "return" flight of the pair, JJ3571 (Leave GIG at 1905) is usually operated by either the 763 that came from JJ3570 (Thus it sit at GIG for 6+ hrs), or from JJ8057 (Which arrives at GIG at 0940). In the latter case, the 763 simply sits in GIG for 7+ hrs. The 763 usually then fly one of the late night departure from GRU to Europe.
 
User avatar
reffado
Posts: 563
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:47 am

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:40 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
reffado wrote:
ojjunior wrote:
LATAM has daily GRU-GIG service with the 763, merely 45 mins on the air, roundtrip flight, among a infinity of other SAO-RIO flights.


Isn’t that a matter of simply aircraft utilization; though? As in, it’s better to run this short flight than to have the 763 sitting at GRU between longer missions?

Regardless, your point stands. Back in the day, RG would run MD11, 763 and even 772 aircraft between MAO, GIG, GRU and BSB, though the exact routes escape me. I believe one of them was GIG-BSB-MAO-BSB-GIG.


Looking at some flight history (FR24), not really. JJ3570 arrives in GIG in 1045. Sometimes that turn into JJ8056/8057 (Running GIG-MIA-GIG), sometimes not. But either way, seems like the "return" flight of the pair, JJ3571 (Leave GIG at 1905) is usually operated by either the 763 that came from JJ3570 (Thus it sit at GIG for 6+ hrs), or from JJ8057 (Which arrives at GIG at 0940). In the latter case, the 763 simply sits in GIG for 7+ hrs. The 763 usually then fly one of the late night departure from GRU to Europe.


Interesting. I wonder what the business case for this is, economically, seeing as JJ's 763s don't really offer more capacity than their Airbus narrobody fleet (at Y191), and I can't imagine tickets for this specific flight are more expensive. I'm not even sure the 30 J seats are sold on those short hops.
 
axiom
Posts: 901
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:39 pm

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:32 am

My first widebody flight was a 764 from TPA-ATL, which I repeated many times. Posters here make a range of valid points about why widebodies make sense, especially on high volume routes. The use of widebody equipment is a function of volume and yield, rather than distance. We may well see a time when widebodies are back on domestic routings en masse.
 
User avatar
BN727227Ultra
Posts: 703
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:15 pm

Re: Why use widebodies for domestic flights?

Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:20 am

thegoldenargosy wrote:
I wish more airlines flew domestic wide bodies. I've flown only a few in the last 20+ years.

DL ATL-MCO L1011
DL ATL-HNL A330
DL JFK-LAX 763

UA SFO-DEN 772
UA ORD-IAD 772

US LAX-PHL 762


AA DFW-ORD 772
AA ORD-DFW 788

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos